True Crime All The Time - Ed Gein Part2

Episode Date: June 10, 2019

Ed Gein is one of the more intriguing characters in the history of true crime. He didn't murder a large number of people as some other killers did. What makes Ed stand out is the scope of his crimes and what he did with his victims. In addition to being a murderer, Ed Gein was a prolific grave robber. And it is what he did with the bodies that has fascinated many people for years.Join Mike and Gibby as we discuss Ed Gein, the basis for many of Hollywood's most famous villains. In this second and last part of the Ed Gein story we focus on Ed's murders, his house of horrors and some missing persons that authorities believe he is connected to. We also discuss the shock around world as the details of Ed Gein's deeds came to light in the late 1950s.You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise and donation informationSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

everyone and welcome to episode 134 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in True Crime Mike Gibson. Give me, how are you? Hey man, I'm good. Man. Man, you can ask me how I am? Uh, or you don't care. I care, but, uh, yeah, yeah, how are you, man? No, I'm doing good. You know, I'm really excited about this second part of the Ed Gein story. We got some really good feedback about part one. We did. There were a number of people talking about the fact that they had to fast forward through some parts, which I thought was somewhat strange. Yeah, the story gets a little creepy, but I just going to throw it out there. Part two is going to be way worse. Yeah, if you were worried about part one. Yeah,

part one was rough for you. You're going to, you're going to be fast forwarding maybe through some parts of part two because, you know, that's when it all comes out, right? I mean, this is finishing up the Ed Gein story. Can't wait. But before we get there, we got some Patreon supporter shout-out. Love that. We had Amanda Reid. Hey, Amanda.

Alexis Victoria. Hey, Alexis. NGS. You know when I said Alexis, I was waiting for like some app to go. Or is that Alexa? It's Alexa. That was close. Lena Smedbach.

Hey, Delina. Sylvia C. Sylvia. Stephanie Bartyessi. Barthiasi. Marie. Hey, Marie. Hey, Marie.

Harleen Avent. Ooh, what's up, Harleen? jumped out at our highest level. Thank you. Some really cool names this week. Lake Erie Lass. Wow. What's up, Loss?

Jennifer Roussel. Rousseli. Cairo Thorne. Hey, Cairo. It's like an adventure star in a movie. Yeah. Jack Bertagney. Hey, Jack.

Kayla J. What's going on, Kayla? Tren Killion. Man, that's a cool name. Tren. So that's the villain in the same movie. Tren. Tren.

That's a cool name. Branded Schmitke. We Schmicki. Devin Brewster. What's up, Devin? Don Vaughn jumped out to our highest level. Don Vaughn. That's just like an action hero name.

Kristen Melton. Hey, Kristen. And somebody calling themselves Rex West. What the what? That name belongs to me, man. So we got a Rex West sign up. Can't be somebody cool. And then if we go back into the Vol Gibbs.

All right. This week we selected Janay Moxie Cruz. Janay. Been with us a long time, you know, years. And I remember going back to two, 2017 when jane signed up because i remember you saying she had a lot of moxie she did and she still does even more moxie out the you know what the at the wazoo so we had so we appreciate that right all the new patron support the continued patreon support that we get we had some great paypal

support as well brian hayes hey brady headvald oh that's a good name that is rotay macaela reedmuller David Michaela. Dorothy Ballerini. Ooh, Ballerine. Like Casey Ballerian? Yeah. Yeah. Victoria Reuter.

Hey, Victoria. Kimberly Jensky. The Jensky. And Tamara Tippeden. What up, Tamara? So some great PayPal support as well. We really appreciate that. Love it.

So right now, you and I are probably what, flying back from CrimeCon Sunday night. We are. If you let me catch my flight on time. Why would I stop you from catching your flight on time? You got me carrying your bag. We got doing a lot of things. At the same time that this is out, we have a new episode out on Unsolved.

It's a very interesting story about what is known as the St. Aubins Massacre. Yeah. This guy named Benny Evangelist. This is the main part of the story. But, you know, as the research was going on, you found some other very horrific. you know, crimes that basically happened in the same place. Same avenue, man. Years later.

Yeah. So we're going to kind of throw them all in to this unsolved episode. And we always joke, not joke, but we, you know, we're always amazed when we do research how we're researching this case and we find all this other terrible crime going around, you know, more murders. Oh, by the way, here's another serial killer just live two blocks away. Operating at the same time. Yeah, down the street.

So I think it's interesting that they're separate, right? They're not related except for the fact that they essentially happen in the same location years apart from each other. So we'll talk about that. But I'm really excited about getting into Ed Gein part two. But I will say this, right? If you haven't listened to part one, do not start here. Turn around, listen to part one first.

Yeah. That's going to be a much more enjoyable. experience, but for those of you that have, we continue on with Ed Gein, the Plainfield Gould. And in this episode, Gibbs, he gets his other moniker, the butcher of Plainfield. Oh, he's stepping up. Well, this episode, he definitely steps up. That's for sure. Not in a good way.

No. You know, in that last episode, in the first part, we talked about Ed's childhood, you know, really focusing on Ed's domineering mother. I don't think there's any doubt. She was the focal point of Ed's life. And I believe the driver, right, of many of his actions that are going to come. It's really after her death in 1945 that Ed started committing his crimes. We talked about it, right? Going to cemeteries, digging up the bodies of middle-aged women, a lot of them that he thought looked like his mom. He was tracking death. obituaries in the paper so that he would know when and where to rob graves.

Some people look for the, you know, looking for a type of pet. Some people look for a garage sale. Some people just want to know what the weather is. Yeah, he's going through looking at who just died. Yeah. And will they be my next skin suit? And that's what he was doing, right? Taking parts of these women and using them to make his suit, which we talked about.

would wear around the house. It's creepy. It's very creepy to think about. And then at the same time, right, there seems to be more disappearances around the area than normal, some that later on Ed is going to be suspected in. So we'll talk about those. We're going to start out talking about those. Then we'll get into the murders known to be committed by Ed. And obviously, we're going to talk about the spectacle of finding out exactly what is in Ed Gein's House of Horrors. And what, you know, what that was like, what was in there? What did it do to the world at large? It could be pretty shocking. I think, you know, it's still shocking to talk about, but in 1957, which is when it all comes out, and we'll talk about it as we get into the episode.

Right. How shocking back then? How different was the world in 1950s? than it is today. Big difference, man. I mean, if you find out about an Ed Geing today, it's on Facebook. I saw it. I'm kind of shocked. But in 1957, to see that in the newspaper, that's just something that was so far out of the norm.

People today would, he'd have a little fan club. Probably. I know, probably now he has a fan club for sure. Not a fan club, but a, I hate to say a fan club. I don't want to give anybody credit for that. But I'm sure he definitely has some. I think he has admirers, followers. I don't know what's the best word for it.

Somebody's got a tattoo of them on their body. I guarantee it. I think there's a lot of the big timers, as we call them, killers, that people are into and maybe what you would think of is not a very healthy way. Yeah. Like, I don't want to say admire, but maybe. You and I don't. We don't admire any of these.

people. And I think 99% of the people listening don't. As long as they don't aspire. Well, yeah, I guess they can think whatever they want, right? Right. As long as they don't do or, you know, act on, try to copycat, obviously, anything like that. But there's so much more to Ed Gein's House of Horrors than what we talked about in episode one, right?

There's more to his experimentation than what we've talked about already. And I think it's important to talk about the time. timing of all this. We mentioned that his mother Augusta died in 1945. I think Ed started his grave robbing, his suit making, not very long after her death, but he's not going to be found out about until many years later, right? It's 1957. I mentioned it already. To be exact, that's over a decade Gibbs of collecting, grave robbing, murder, mayhem. Yeah, I mean, it's a very long time. It is a long time.

You know, and that whole time, you think about this tiny little place, plainfield. These people just think, you know, oh, there goes old Ed Gein. He lives up there in that farmhouse by himself. He don't hurt nobody. It's a good old boy. Yeah, he does odd jobs, you know, around the neighborhood. He's good with working with leather. He does.

He is good working with hides. Yeah. He'll call him. He never bothers anyone, right? Does his jobs and he goes home. Meanwhile, he's out at night stealing bits and pieces of these people's deceased family members that they don't even know about. Nobody knows about it yet because, you know, that's one thing we didn't talk about in

episode one. He must have been pretty good at covering up his tracks. I mean, I think for one thing, he was digging up recently. buried individuals. Yeah. So the ground was already disturbed. It's not like there was grass and he was, you know, digging up these people that had been buried two or three years ago.

But still, it's a lot of work. It is. Go there. Take the time to dig six feet. You know, get down there. Open it up. Do what you need to do. Especially if you're taking the body home with you and then you're going to, you know,

maybe bring it back. Yeah. Or you're just taking it home. It's still a lot of work. Yeah. Got to fill the hole back in. You got to fill it up because the family's going to come visit. You know, it can't look like or the cemetery people can't think that somebody's missing.

But it'll get to the point later where their police are not even sure he did all this once it comes out. Yeah. Because of how hard it must have been. So timeline wise, there's about 12 years, right, worth of grave robbing, disappearances, murders for us to unpack. That's also a lot of time, Gibbs, to be crafting skin suits and wearing them around your house. Over 10 years, that's a lot of tucking, untucking, retucking, tucking, tucking. It's a lot of tucking. So I want to play a clip from the prosecutor talking about Ed Gein.

Ed Gein would read the burial notices and see which women of beyond the ages of 50, or so had died and been buried and then he would go out that night and dig up the particular body take it back to his house and perform all kinds of surgical procedures on it so i felt like he was he was grasping there for a term you know of how to say what ed gine was doing at home he called it surgical procedures which he's not technically wrong. I guess he is in, he was in a way performing some type of surgical procedures, mostly cutting. But I really want to start off this episode talking about some of the disappearances in the area over the years that Ed is thought to have had a hand in. So in May of 1947, this was just a couple of years after his mother died.

he was starting or he was into his grave robbing. An eight-year-old girl named Georgia Weckler vanished on her way home from school. Police residents, they set out searching for this young girl, but they never found her. This Georgia Weckler was never found. Police didn't really have any viable suspects. And really the only evidence they had were some tire marks that were determined to have been made by Ford near the place that Georgia was last seen. Then in 1952, two men disappeared from a plainfield bar, Victor Travis and Ray Burgess. The two had been seen drinking in the bar,

and then they were seen leaving, but both these men and the car that they were in disappeared and were never found. The next year in 1953, a 15-year-old girl named Evelyn Hartley disappeared. She was babysitting at a house in lacrosse, Wisconsin. When her father couldn't reach her by phone, you know, at the house that she was babysitting, he got worried. He drove over there. Through the window, he saw his daughter's shoes and eyeglasses laying on the floor. And you know, Gibbs. I'm sure at that point, he was even more worried. What's going on? I've been freaking out. Freaking out, but he can't get in the house. All the doors are locked. I would became a human bulldozer.

So he goes around back. He finally finds a window to the basement that is not locked. So he's able to get in. But what he sees concerns him even more. He sees some blood stains. So he calls the police. The police get there. They get inside the house.

They find signs of struggle. More blood stains. They find some blood stains outside of the house, like in the grass leading away. from the house, they find a bloody handprint on the neighbor's house. So it's not looking good, right? They can't find this girl. Right. But all of this blood and I mean, something bad had to have happened. Evelyn was never found. But some of her clothing was found a few days later near a highway just outside of the city of lacrosse. So four disappearances, right? Over about a six year period,

All four authorities believe maybe that Ed Gein could have had some type of hand in, but why? You know, I struggle with this a little bit. They don't really fit the pattern at all of what we know about Ed Gein. Right. The two girls were young. And Ed targeted middle-aged women. And why target the two men?

Ed had grown up in LaCross, where Evelyn disappeared from. But what else was there? I mean, all four of these really happened very close to Plainfield, in and around, Plainfield, and the cross wasn't that far. And obviously, Ed was living and operating in Plainfield. The only thing I could think of is maybe these people found out something about what Ed was doing. And he needed to take care of business. Yeah, maybe they saw him.

They uncovered. They heard him talk. I don't know. Something, if he did have a hand in their disappearances, something had to have happened to, like you said, make him feel like he had to get rid of them. I just don't see it. It doesn't fit the pattern. And as far as I know, not a single part of any of these four people were later found

inside of Ed's house. And when we're obviously we're going to get there talking about it, there's going to be parts of a lot of people. Parts upon parts upon parts. So many parts of different people in this house. not a single thing that conclusively ties back to these four people. There are going to be some things that maybe point towards it. And maybe that's why people think that he could have had something to do with it.

But let's get into some of the things we know for sure. In 1951, Ed was at a bar owned by a woman named Mary Hogan. And apparently, Ed Gein became enamored with this woman. So first of all, apparently, she, she looked just like his mother. That was said, I think she was about 50 or 51 years old when, when Ed first met her. So she looked like Augusta, but as it was relayed, could not have been any more different than Ed's mom. Okay.

We talked a lot about Ed's mom. Sure, we did. She was very religious, fanatical even, right? People said about her, this woman, Mary Hogan, I guess, had a mouth on her like a drunken sailor. So she owned a bar, she drank, she cussed a lot. Hell, she probably chewed tobacco. I don't know. Hey.

In the early 50s. Nothing wrong with that. But I guess the main thing here is that her mannerisms were the exact opposite of Augustus. But yet she looked very much like his mother. What's the draw there? Obviously the resemblance. And maybe the fact that she looked like his mom but was nothing like. like his mom. Kind of like in Seinfeld, man, when they had their opposites. Oh, Bizarro? Bizarro.

Like Bizarro Jerry? Yeah. So he got, he got so into this woman, apparently he couldn't get her out of his mind. And just like the four individuals that we talked about, Mary Hogan would vanish. But unlike the other four, we know that it was Ed Gein. Right. That caused her to vanish. But it wouldn't happen until three years later, right? 1954. Ed is back at the bar. He's hanging out. He's drinking with Mary Hogan. I'm not sure Gibbs how many times he was in the bar between 1951 when he first saw her and this time in 1954. But this time, he must have decided that the timing was right. Now's the time to do it. Yeah. And I guarantee you, there's no way that he comes back three years later and has not. And he has not. You know, been in that bar many, many times.

Oh, no. I know he wasn't in the bar in 1951, and he just happened to come back three years later. I think he was there many times. And this particular night, he saw his opportunity and he took it. He just had to build some courage over the time. No, maybe that could be it. But I think a lot of it probably had to do with opportunity, you know, making sure that the environment was right.

Right. I mean, first of all, he's got to get her alone. That's not easy to do in a bar situation, depending on how busy this bar was. There's always that one guy in there, though. There's always somebody in there, usually. But this night, the two were alone. They're drinking. And from what Ed would later tell police, he closed the blinds.

He put a small caliber gun to Mary's head, and he pulled the trigger. He really didn't mess around. He got up, closed the blinds, shot her in the head and killed her. Just I just do this right away, quick and easy. If you believe Ed Gein, this was his first murder. Now, not everybody believes Ed Gein, right? A lot of people think he had a hand in some of these other ones. But according to him, this is the first time that he killed anyone.

He must have been giddy. Gibby. That's hard to say. Giddy, Gibby. Giddy, Giddy, Gibby. He must have been. You know, for almost 10 years. Since his mom died in 45, he has been digging up recently deceased, middle-aged women,

taking parts for his suit. Now he has a middle-aged woman that he's been thinking about for three years. Right. He coveted this woman. He saw her. He's been thinking about her. Fresh. And, yeah, that's a tough word to use.

But it is. it's really the only word that makes sense. We kind of talked about it, touched on it a little bit in the first episode, at some point, right, digging up people that were already dead was not enough for Edging. He made the decision that for whatever reason, whether it was he had to be the one to cause their death, he needed somebody that like,

like you said, had just died. I don't know the exact reason. I don't think he ever gave the exact reason. But there's no doubt that he switched, right, from grave robbering to killing his victims. Not to mention the fact that this woman closely resembles his mama. Kind of weird. It is weird.

But I really believe. I believe that he was planning, plotting some form, some fashion to have Mary Hogan all to himself for three years or part of it, a large part of it. Yeah. And now he's finally made it happen. And again, it all sounds very weird, right? When you say it out loud like that,

but I honestly believe that that's what was going on in his head. He's going to take her back to his house. But to police, right? They show up. And to them, it's a missing person case. She's gone. We don't know where she is.

Just like the other four people that we talked about. Now, I think they realized that something not good happened. right at the bar that night, they found a spent shell casing. They found some blood. So they couldn't have thought that that Mary Hogan left under her own power or that, you know, things went well. Obviously, something bad happened in that bar. Exactly. All right, Gibbs, let's take a quick break to talk about our sponsors. I want to talk about ZipRecruiter. Finding a new job is a lot of work. You know, take it from a couple of guys that have had to find new jobs in their life. It's not always easy.

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is available. So visit betterhelp.com slash TCAT and join the over 500,000 people taking charge of their mental health with the help of an experienced professional. Tcat listeners get 10% off your first month at betterhelp.com slash teacat. So I'm not going to get into all the details of what Ed did with Mary Hogan. There's no need to, right? Everybody listening knows what Ed's been doing. He's going to do the same thing with, with Mary Hogan. He's not going to waste any time. No. I don't know what parts. I don't have all that information to even, you know, say it, but we all know what Ed Gein does. Is it safe to say harvest time? Yeah, no, it's definitely safe to say that.

Some of the details come out later when they get inside the house. But somehow Ed was satisfied for the next three years. I have no idea how this happens. I mean, at the very least, according to him, he didn't murder anyone. Right. For this three year period. He also said that after he was captured, he hadn't robbed any graves for like two or three years. He just was happy that he had the fresh body. That's what it seemed like. It was almost as if

as soon as he committed his first murder, he had this Mary Hogan. The thrill of that was enough to last him for quite a long time. Now, that's strange for you and I to talk about a killer going too long. Right. I mean, we've had serial killers that have gone two or three years, but it's not the norm, right? Most of the time, that that compulsion, that inner frog demon doesn't allow for that much time to pass. But we've covered some where they just stopped for quite a while and it just makes me wonder, you know, one, did they really stop? And two, if they did, what's the driving force behind that? How did they get that demon under control for a while? Yeah, no, I think it's a great observation because you always always. always wonder, right? When, when it all comes out, how much of it is true. So did they really stop,

like they said, for a year, two years, three years, four years, whatever it is, right? Or were they doing a bunch of stuff that they don't want you to know about? So technically, they never stopped. And the compulsion was just so much that they kept going and they kept going. Most of the killers we talk about, I think, fall into that category. They can't stop. That whatever that driving force is, it's eating at them. They have to satisfy something. And, you know, now the interval may be different for different people, but very rarely is it two or three years before they do their thing.

But for Ed, it really all came crashing down in 1957. It was November. Ed Gein was in the wardens store. This is kind of like a hardware store in Plainfield. He was there to buy a half gallon of. antifreeze. Manning the store is 58-year-old Bernice Warden. She had operated that store in Plainville for 26 years. Wow. So she owned it. She operated it. She manned it most of the time. As Ed would later tell the authorities, he went in to buy the antifreeze and he was standing there

as Bernice was pumping the antifreeze out a court at a time into a container for it, which is very strange for us. Yeah, we're not used to that. Not used to that at all. You go into a store and they actually have just a huge thing of antifreeze and they're giving you X amount. We just go to Walmart and get a gallon of antifree. Yeah, we don't know. Hey, can you pump some out of that 55 drink gallon for us? Right. But that's, that's what it was like back then. So what Ed says is that he went into what he calls a days. You're going to hear this quite a bit. This is Ed Gein terminology. He's in a days. And the next thing that he remembered was dragging the lifeless body of Bernice Warden out of the store. So what happened was Ed Gein shot Bernice with a small caliber rifle that I believe he took

from her own store. So he goes to the store not prepared to kill this woman was my understanding. He didn't bring his gun with him. This is a general hardware store back in the 50s. they got rifles. They've got anaphrase. Yeah. They've got whatever you want, right? This is like a mini Walmart. Can I see that?

Yeah. This is what they got. Gun, please. While she's maybe doing the antifreeze, the gun's just sitting there. It's not like, you know, lock and key like it would be. Today. Yeah, today. Well, today they don't even sell it, right?

Right. So he grabs the gun and he shoots her. So he dragged her body out the back of the store, put it into the store's pickup truck, along with the cash register. So he stole the cash register as well. Well, if you're going to do all that, why not go ahead and take the cash too? Yeah.

I mean, you've already done the worst thing you could possibly do. Yeah, it's probably one of those cool NCR cash registers too, you know? I bet it was. Yeah. From here in Dayton, Ohio. Exactly.

So then he gets in the truck. He drives it to a secluded spot. He gets out. He leaves the truck, which in the back has Bernice Warden's body, and the cash register and he starts off on foot he walks back to town gets his car drives back to the truck transfers the body and the cash register to his car drives to the farm now this is a person with limited intelligence sure who says they were any days when they killed but yet all the rest of

stuff that happened was pretty calculated well i would say so yeah i mean it was a really a smart thing to do there. Yeah. Now a couple people saw the truck driving around town. A couple people came to the store and it was closed. They thought that was strange, right? During the day when it would normally be open. One of the things that was kind of throwing people off was that it was, I think it was

either the first day of deer season or deer season had just started. You know, back then, I think a lot of people thought, okay, she closed down and went hunting. She was out there doing her things. think. Yeah. What really amazed me, Gibbs, is how easy it was to solve this murder. This is not a Agatha Christie who done it. So Bernice's son, guy by the name of Frank Warden, he had been out hunting. I mentioned it was hunting season. He returned to the hardware store. He couldn't find his mother. He was a sheriff's deputy and he noticed pretty quickly that the cash register was gone. And there was a small amount of dried blood on the counter, but also on the counter was a bill of sale for antifreeze.

And this bill of sale appeared as though it had been started, but not completed. Right. But what was on it was the name of the buyer, Ed Gein. And Frank later said that just the evening before Ed Gein had told him he was going to come into the store the next day to get some antifreeze. So Frank called into the sheriff's department. and said, you know, go find Ed Ging. Something's going on with my mom.

I think he had something to do with it. They arrest Ed. But he wasn't at the farm. You know, he was somewhere in town. There were some reports that he was at the local grocery store. But after they arrested Ed, they decided that, hey, we better go check out the farm. No way, Gibbs, that these officers could have been prepared for the kind of horror show that they were about to find.

Couldn't even imagine what they walked in on. No, there is no way. Small town America. What did I say? This town had less than what, 700 people? Yeah, that's it, man. They've never seen anything like this. But really, if you think about it, how many places have seen something like this?

Not too many. Not many. Yeah, because this has not happened very often. The sheriff was a guy by the name of Arthur Schley. So he's out there. He's got one of his deputies with him. inside this house. They said the smell was unbearable.

Couldn't even imagine how bad it had to smell. They said the house was full of rotting garbage. It was hard to walk through the house because basically every square inch almost was filled with something and none of it was good, right? This is not a better homes and gardens type of house. You're not throwing a block party and asking people to come in. and see your house because you've done some renovations. So this is the part I can never figure out Gibbs.

I get, you know, some people are depraped. It doesn't bother them to do certain things, right? Actually, they want to. They're excited to do some of these really nasty things. It didn't bother Ed Gein to dig up recently deceased middle-aged women and cut them up. It didn't bother him to hold these little fiestasas where he danced around in his handmade suit. Right.

Made from said body parts. Exactly. But how do you live in that farmhouse, right? For 10, 12 years with all the kinds of things inside there with you that were once alive, the smell alone. I would think would make it so you wouldn't be able to stand being in there. Maybe he didn't have a sense of smell. Maybe.

I didn't read that. I mean, visually, I can stand a lot of things. Yeah. Right. If I, I can see things, even if they're nasty, it doesn't bother me all that much. Right. But smell-wise, it really doesn't take a lot to make a gag, man. To make my stomach turn.

And maybe that's just the way I'm wired visually versus, you know, smell. To me, it's two different things. I can put up with a lot visually. You'd have to think there had to be like maggots and flies and all kinds of stuff. So these guys are at the farm. and the sheriff stumbles into something hanging from a beam. We mentioned it, right? Deer season just opened.

I think immediately this guy's mind went to that. Somebody has bagged a deer, Ed's bagged a deer, and, you know, he's got it hanging here, whatever. But didn't take that long, right? To inspect this thing a little bit more, to realize that this is no deer. This is a human body with the head cut off, gutted as a hunter would do to an animal. Right. It was said that the body was slit from the neck down to the private area, then opened and peeled back.

I mean, this is nasty stuff we're talking about. He's dressing a deer. And this is fresh, right? This is going to turn out to be Bernice Warden that he's just murdered. And then you think about this sheriff, right? He realizes who this is. This is the mother of his own deputy. Yeah, Frank.

To see one of the well-known people in Plainfield, well-like person in Plainfield hanging there upside down and dressed out like a deer, it's hard to explain how a man feels when he sees something like that. So just a really short clip from the sheriff that found Bernice's body. there was some interesting reading about this guy. He really struggled Gibbs with what he found inside the house that day. We're going to talk about it here in a minute, but he died young. And a lot of people, his friends and things have attributed it to what he found in the house that day.

And that no human should ever have to see. Yeah. Yeah. That couple with the fact that I think he, I read where. You know, once they got Ed in custody, he roughed him up. He was, oh, he was mad. Sure. Banged his head off the table.

I don't know how true this is, but I read it in a couple different places. And, you know, when Ed's trial was going to come up, he thought he was going to have to testify, you know, about what he had done to Ed. So anyway, all of this in the reading goes to what people think attributed to his death. Because I think he died right before Ed was going to go to trials. He didn't live that all that long. You met young. Yeah. He died not that long after this happened.

But I mean, that's one of those things, right? You're not getting that out of your mind. That's going to stick with you the rest of your life because as we're getting ready to talk about, it's something that you couldn't even make it out. No. I'd be afraid to go into the next. I wouldn't be afraid, but I'd be like, man, do I really want to see what's behind this next door? No. No, you don't.

No, you don't. It's just the beginning, right? Finding Bernice was just the beginning of the horrible things that they would find in that house. They found so many human bone Gibbs. It's hard to believe. It took them over a week to find all of the things inside this house. You know, we've talked about Ed using the skin, right, in the body parts to make his suit. Obviously, they found the suit and maybe more than one. I don't know. He had at least one, but they found furniture. covered in human skin, chairs, where, you know, somebody would do a DIY project and use some fabric or something. Right. He is using human skin. He's stretching it, doing whatever. Oh, yeah. Tanning it up into different colors and made himself a lampshade. He did. Made a lampshade. You know, it's like he's attempting to update his feng shui in a way that you shouldn't attempt to do. It's like anti-fung-shua there, I think. By decorating items in his house with human skin, you know, like you said, a lampshade, really?

Do you need a lampshade made out of human skin? Maybe it's the way it softens the light. Cast the light on the room. I mean, they found skulls. And I mean a bunch of skulls. They found some that he had cut into bowls. Oh. He was using skulls to, like, eat a soup with.

Have a cereal in the morning? A little. Fruity pebbles. A little skull bowl there. Yeah. Lips. Noses. And you name a body part, they probably found it.

There was one report that they found a belt made from human nipples. He had a nipple belt. Nipple belt. It's fashionable and snowwear. Did you say snowwear? No. Nowhere. Oh, I thought he was like snowware.

That's like something you're wearing the snow? No, no, no. You fashionable nowhere. I got you. I swear there was an S in there. You sure. You know, there's really not a lot of places where, you know, that type of attire is going to be applicable. But again, Ed's not wearing it out, right?

Ed's got his home thing going on in his house. I'm going to put my suit on. And, you know, the mushroom belt, my nipple belt. My nipple belt. Yeah. When I saw that, man, I was just like, the guy's got a nipple belt. They found Bernice Warden's head. And they found her internal organs.

Remember, he had just killed her. not like he, you know, had months and months to do something with her body. Yeah, it was all fresh. But already, right, had gutted her, had taken out her organs, had removed her head. He was straightened it like a deer, man. He really was. Yeah. You know, they found Mary Hogan's skull as well as her face. Now, how many times have you said that? They found someone's face. Yeah, never. That we talked about it a little bit in episode one. Yeah. He took her face with the scalp, right, still attached to the scalp and cut it off and would wear it around the house. So scalp over his scalp face draped down over his face. Right. Uh-uh. No way, man. No, I'm not doing that. That'd have to feel weird, man, having to up against your

skin. But that's what he wanted, right? So I've got, I say aye, but he's got the suit on. He puts the face on to feel more female. Right? He's trying to get the whole suit. That's where we got into, you know, lining women's underwear with genitalia. Yeah. And then putting the underwear on that now becomes kind of like his new genitalia. Yeah, he looks in the mirror.

It looks like he's female down there. We've got a skin suit on. I've got a woman's face on. I'm as female as I can possibly be in my current situation. But it gives me the creeps, man. It gives, it really does. I think for some reason, the face most of all. And I don't know why.

The skin suit would be horrible. It's got real breasts hanging off of it. You're tightening it up like a corset. But the face, to wear somebody else's face, all I can think of is Hannibal Lecter in silence of the land. Yeah. That's all I can think of. And then the resulting parodies of people putting baloney on their face and, yeah.

Going Silence of the Lambs. No wonder they got Leatherface out of this also. Right. I didn't know this from watching the movie, but I was reading about it, and it said that apparently Leather Face had been burned by acid or something. Did you remember that from watching the movie? He was disfigured in some way. That's why he needed the face.

That's why he needed it, huh? Not because he wanted to be female or anything like that. I don't recall. I don't remember that being a part of the movie. I'm sure it was explained maybe, but... It might have been. I don't remember it. There was some reports that said, gives it they found some clothing and some body parts from

what they believed to be a younger female. Some people thought that it was a female that was no more than 15 years old. If that is true, that gives some credence to Ed possibly being responsible for the death of Evelyn Hartley, but it's something that he would never admit to and police couldn't prove it. So my thought is whatever body part they had, it wasn't something that they could I use to identify Evelyn Hartley. Like I said, none of those four people as far as I know were proved to have been in his house. So they have it. They have his house of horrors. You know, at first he tries to hold out, right, on police. But he doesn't do it for long. They break him fairly quickly. They get him

to confess. And what Ed said was, you know, he went into that whole story about he was in a daze when he was alone with Bernice in the store. When he came to, he said he was dragging her dead body, you know, out of the store. He said he didn't really remember actually killing her at all. He was just in this hypnotic state of mind. Yeah, that he kept calling a daze. That was his word for it. A daze. Although he did admit to butchering her at his house. He, he remembered all of that. Okay. But did not remember, you know, getting the gun, pulling the trigger, you know, any of that

part. Over days of interrogation, he gave police the details of his grave robbing. Because he, they asked, you know, he had to explain. Why did he have all these people in his house? I think at first they thought he had killed a lot of people. So obviously, very quickly, he's saying, hey, now. Yeah, don't put that on me. I didn't kill all these people.

I dug these people up. Skinned them. Oh yeah, I did all that. Yeah. But I didn't kill him. And he gave them enough detail, police, that they were able to find some of the graves that he had robbed. And they actually went out there, right?

Dug up the coffins, opened them up to confirm what Ed Gein was saying. Yeah, I mentioned this. I think there were some authorities that were very skeptical of the grave robbing aspect because they weren't sure if Ed Gein, who really was not a very big guy, was capable of doing all that by himself. You and I were even questioning that. Yeah, it was a lot to do in one night. I was tired thinking about all the work that would go into doing that,

and he did it over and over many, many times. Maybe 40, I saw estimates of 40 different grave robings. That's a lot of shovel time. That has a lot of work. But you know, if there's something you really want to do, Gibbs, you will find a way to get it done. You will. And he really wanted.

to have these women. Someone comes up and says, give me some skin, man. That's a whole different meaning with him. It is. You don't want to say that to Ed Gein because he'll give you some. He got a bunch.

He got extra. So Ed is adamant, right? That he hadn't killed all these women. What he's telling police is that he hadn't killed anyone except for Bernice Warden. So they originally charged him with robbery because he stole the cash register. And he was arraigned on that charge.

given a $10,000 bail. Later, he would be charged with first degree murder in the death of Bernice. And then eventually police were able to get him to confess to killing Mary Hogan. But again, he said the same thing. He was in a daze. He wasn't able to fill in all the details. Police said that when Ed Gein finally did talk about the grave robbing, the murders, he didn't show any emotion, right?

He talked to them. He told them these stories. as you would come in here, Gibbs and tell me, you know, about a meeting you had today or something. Yeah. Probably with, you'd probably even have more emotion than what Ed did. Possible. Some people said that it was almost as if he was happy as he was telling them the details of what he had done. But the one thing that everyone said was that it didn't seem as though Ed knew how big of a deal all of this really was.

You know, right? I don't think he grasped the gravity of the situation that he was in. So it didn't take very long at all, right, for this to hit the newspapers, you know, a day or two. Could you imagine when it hit the newspapers? No. No. Again, we said this, right? This is 1957.

The whole world, not the United States. The whole world was shocked to read what authorities had found in Ed Gein's house. And they weren't even giving everything. thing. Right. You know, in 1957, they're not telling you all those details. It's like a newspaper's dream, I don't want to say dream, but you know, they'd be excited about this story, you know? I mean, they can see that. Well, it's got legs. Yes. They're going to be able to write about it every day. And when you go back and you look at some of the newspapers, especially there in Wisconsin, they did write about it every day because, you know, this day they found six skulls.

The next day, they found four skulls. So all the papers are probably picking it up all over the world. Can you imagine how they have to translate some of this stuff? Oh, you're talking about in other countries? Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. I would imagine there were countries that couldn't even run some of what they ran in the United States. And like I said, it was very tame. You think back about 1957, they're not printing what they would print today. No. At all. They're not saying Ed Gein had a nipple belt and ate his fruity pebbles out of human skulls. They didn't see. say all that. Nor should they. Because 1957 America or the world, they can't handle that. That would have freaked many out. There was no talk of labias, vulvas, vaginas that just didn't make

the paper back then. No, I can see why. You didn't talk about such things, Gibbs in 1957. It's not breakfast conversation. No, it's not. It also reminds me of why do they have to pick the strangest words for the female anatomy. All the words to me for the female reproductive system down there, they're strange words. I don't like saying them. They don't roll off the tongue. No. But I do think, you know, in all seriousness, the papers gave enough information, right, that people knew this guy had body parts, obviously. They found that that type of stuff in his house. They just didn't get into the specifics that would cause people to faint back in 1957. They were still shocked as all get out. The fact that he had, you know, gutted and,

you know, decapitated and they found skulls and all that. Can't imagine the crew that had to go in there and retrieve all this stuff, catalog it. Oh. And then go home and have dinner. No, I'm sure for police, like I said, for that sheriff, I think it was, it was so traumatic for him that, at least, least according to his friends, it ended his life early. Yeah. Now, whether that's true or not, that's what they believe. There's nothing that you could go home to for dinner and be like, yeah, I can eat that. It doesn't remind me of anything.

No. Getting nice boiled ham and some yams and you'd be all set. Sure. But I still think about the difference between 1957 and today. If that story comes out today, still be shocking. Yes. But I don't think it would be as shocking in the world that we live in. it would hit Facebook and Twitter and you would be like, oh, wow, that's, that's a story.

Right. That's something. I'm going to follow that and see where it goes. Somewhat desensitized today. Oh, I don't think there's any doubt. Yeah. You know, as opposed to 1957 America. And then you talk about Plainfield, right, a very small town to be the center of this type of news.

You know, the people in and around Plainfield, they were not happy. They lived in this small little quainfield. town that's now associated with Ed Gein, murder, body parts, and skin suits. Yeah. These people are thinking, you know, we got one stoplight, we got a McDonald's and a DQ. Why is the whole world in our town writing about, you know, Ed Gein and his skulls and his skin suits and all that? And his nipple belt.

They didn't have McDonald's and DQ back then. I don't think. But anyway, that's what I think of when I think of a little one horse town, you know. Yeah. You got a stoplight and a McDonald's. And if you're lucky, you got a DQ. Maybe. Maybe.

On a good day. You probably got a McDonald's because everybody's got a McDonald's. Hey, right. You know, Ray Kroc, man. He was good at that. But no doubt. The citizens of Plainfield, they didn't want that attention. But what could they do?

It was there. And it didn't, it didn't stop for quite a long time. Now, other agencies, other jurisdictions started to think about Ed, right, for some of their unsolved cases. detectives from Chicago came to interview Ed pretty early on about a series of unsolved murders that occurred there in 1955, especially the murder of 16-year-old Judith May Anderson. They were very interested to talk to Ed, but after talking to him, they left satisfied that Ed Gein had never even been to Chicago.

You know, we talked about it. The farthest he'd ever been was Milwaukee. Right. You're not pinning a bunch of people. of unsolved murders on Ed Gein that happened too far from Plainfield because he just never went. He never ventured very far from, you know, where he lived. Not his MO, man. Detectives from LaCross came to interview Ed about Evelyn Hartley.

Again, I really think they thought he had something to do with it, but they were never able to make any type of connection. And he wasn't going to be that cooperative, I'm guessing. No. No, if he had something to do with. any of the other people we talked about, he never said anything about it. And I don't think it was for lack of trying. I think they leaned on him. I think they interrogated him pretty hard. Like I mentioned, there was a story about the sheriff bouncing his head off a table during part of the interrogation.

I don't know how true that is, but I read it in a couple of different places. I think they hit him pretty hard, you know, and they forced him to talk about everything that he had done. And, my feeling is if he had had something to do with these other four people, they probably would have been able to get him to crack. But if he didn't know anything about it, what was he going to say? Exactly. Unless they were feeding him all the information and then they got him to confess. But, and we're not going to spend a lot of time on the legal part, the trial and all that.

The one thing about Ed Gein, right, his Sandy was definitely in question from the very beginning. and Ed was evaluated. They had a sanity hearing. And during that, it was determined that, you know, Ed said he never messed with his own mother's grave. But this is one of those things. There's actually quite a bit about this case where you will read conflicting information. This is one of those, right? There are a lot of people that say, oh, Ed dug up his mother, had her head with him at the house. That's something that I, could never confirm. I saw it in different places, but most of the things didn't, you know, say that. And I don't believe he did that. I mean, specifically it said at the sanity hearing, he said he didn't. And he idolized his mom. Right. That's the other thing. To me, it doesn't make sense, right? He closed off her room. He made it into essentially a shrine for her. Right. Most of me thinks that he wouldn't want to disturb her grave. He, he wouldn't want to decapitate her. He wouldn't want to hurt her even in death because he was in love with his mom. He idolized, like you said, he idolized her.

Yeah. He did admit that both of his victims bore a striking resemblance to his mother. And then he explained the skin suit, right? And you know that's what everybody was, was wanting to hear. Oh, big time. He said he would put it on at night. He laced it up very tightly. And he added that on top of the skin suit, he would wear his mother's clothes. Oh. And he would have conversations with her. And that's really where, you know, definitely the movie Psycho comes in, right? Norman Bates dressed in his mother's clothes.

He had conversations with her. And then you find out that the guy that wrote Psycho, this Edward Block, or wrote whatever was turned into Psycho. Right. He only lived about. 50 miles from playing field. Oh, really? Yeah. So he really followed this case closely. So when he wrote his character, he really took a lot of Ed Gein. In early January, 1958, so they had all these professionals evaluate Ed Gein. They labeled him as psychotic and a paranoid schizophrenic.

And they said Gibbs, no way could this guy ever be cured. But under Wisconsin law, right? Ed Gein could not be legally held responsible for his crimes since he was deemed insane. So there wasn't even a trial, right? No need for a trial. They sent him straight to the central state hospital for the criminally insane. And Ed worked a number of jobs, you know, while he was at this secure mental health facility, he worked as an attendant, did a little carpentry. Oh, yeah.

Did some masonry work, right? He was good with his hands. He did a lot of odd jobs. Clearly. So I'm sure. They put him to work and said, hey, you want to do this? You want to do that? Hey, Mr. Tuck.

Come here. Exactly. He was said to have been a model inmate. And he's going to be there for quite a long time. But think about the farm. You and I talk about this, the place where these horrific crimes happen. What happens to them, right? After the perpetrator who lived there or killed there or whatever it was, they go off to jail or in Ed's case.

He's in a, you know, mental health facility. Right. But his farm. sitting there, you know, how many people are driving from Chicago or Milwaukee? They want to see Ed Gein's farm. Yeah. 50% of our listeners would get in their car right now if they could go see Ed Gein's farm properly. Some of them are in their car right now driving. Just in case it's still there. Well, it's not there. To turn around. They were going to sell it, right? Obviously, you know, they were going to auction it off. Right. But somebody couldn't have that. So they

burned it down. They burned it to the ground. Nobody ever came. forward to take credit as far as I know. But one thing's for sure, right? No one in the town of Plainfield was crying their eyes out about the the Gien family farm, you know, burning down. They were glad, right? Did this house of horrors burned? Because no one wanted to see the farm become that type of sightseeing stop. Absolutely. They didn't want that attention. You know, they didn't want that. They didn't need it. And they just wanted to move on. And the only way to do that is to burn it to the ground. If you saw it to somebody else, we know from experience.

Somebody's going to turn into a museum or a place for people to come. You pay money. You can see where Ed Gein hung up his victims. Exactly. And they probably get like a little leather course out in the barn. Yeah. This is how he would do it. I don't know how many other killers were, you know, from around playing field.

But if there was a tour, that would be a stop on the tour. Or as notorious as Edging was, that would be a destination all in and of itself. And today's world certainly would be. Yeah. I even think back then, I think it would have been, it was so, the story was so big that I think if that house was not burned to the ground, there would have been a large number of people coming from all over just to, you know, if they couldn't get inside, just to see where it all went down.

But they would pay good money to get inside. Oh, sure. Yeah. so they can try to figure out why he did what he did. Maybe by going in the home, maybe I can get a better understanding. Just to be, and that's the thing, right? We all, I don't think there's anybody that doesn't like to be connected in some way to history. Now, true crime fans sometimes want that connection to infamous history.

Yeah. No doubt about if that place was open, we'd be going through it. Mm-hmm. Why wouldn't we? So Ed is in the mental health facility for 10 years. And after 10 years, they said that he was competent to stand trial. This is a very weird case, right, at the end of it, because normally you have your trial, you're in prison, you die.

Well, Ed didn't have his trial because he right off the bat was deemed criminally insane. Then 10 years later, they said, you know what? You're not. So you're going to stand trial. this trial lasted about a week and he was found not guilty by reason of insanity ordered back to central state hospital so really nothing happened right had this trial they said you're going back to the hospital the same place you just came from the judge said that he would be kept in the hospital until his release would not be a danger to other persons well that time would be never now i don't think you would look at ed guine and say that he would ever not be a danger to someone else. Yeah, there's no way. Maybe he's not a danger to you or I,

but he's a danger to every middle-aged woman he sees. The judge also said that Gien lived in such a fantasy world that he was unable to appreciate the criminality of his acts. So it was really kind of strange here, right? Technically, I don't think Ed Gein was ever convicted of his crimes. Which is bizarre. It's very bizarre. everything they had, right?

I mean, all the evidence. Well, they knew he did it. Yeah. But it was the insanity, right? Not guilty or innocent by reason of insanity. Technically, he wasn't convicted. But he never hit the streets again. Thankfully.

Thankfully. I mean, they were, you know, they were, they had some hearings about his possible release, but I just don't think anybody was willing to sign off on that, right? Ed Gein wanted to get out. He would tell anybody that would listen. that he was fine. He was mentally healthy. He was ready to, you know, go back out into society.

But think about it, Gibbs. Who's going to put their name on the release of Ed Gein? And then take the chance that he's going to go out and not murder more women or dig up more women, make a new suit, do whatever he's going to do. You don't want to be the person, man or woman. No. That puts that kind of evil back. on the streets.

The other thing that I really found very interesting, it was reported in one of the papers that Ed had saved all of his money, right? From the little mount that he probably made working while he was incarcerated, he saved it all because when he got out, he wanted to take a trip around the world. He wanted to see the world. Okay. He wanted to make suits all over the world. Yeah.

I think is probably what he wanted to do. Get a little Italian cut, you know, a little Italian cut, you know, a little. little different. French cut, Italian cut. Oh, man. I mean, it's such a weird story.

It is weird. But very well known. People talk about him all the time. Yeah. I mean, you know, literally for a guy that murdered two people,

very infamous killer. Yeah. A lot of press. To have such a low body count because of the things that he did. Yeah. Right. On top of the murders.

The freakiness. The freakiness of everything. just the weird, strangeness of it all. When you say get your freak on, this is not what you're talking about. No, no, no. This is not the way to do it. There's a whole different way that we won't. That's another podcast.

When you say keep your head on a swivel, you don't mean the way he would have kept the head on a swivel. No. Keep your head on a swivel for people like this that are, you know, eyeing you up and down for a skin suit. Exactly. Is what he's doing. So in the 1970s, Ed started having.

health problems. In 1978, he was moved to this place called the Mendota Institute in Madison, Wisconsin. But again, there, staff said that he was a great patient slash inmate, whatever you want to call him. But they also said that, you know, yeah, he continued to work with leather. They let him work with leather. He even designed some women's handbags, you know, used cloth and some beads. He knew how to stitch. He was probably really good at it. Yeah. Now, Ed Gein died in the mental institution in 1984. He was 77 years old. He was buried next to his mother in the Plainfield Cemetery, probably where he always wanted

to be. Yeah, I guess so. After she died. But that's it. That's the story of Ed Gein. Like I said, you know, I said it in episode one. It's one that I've really been wanting to do for a long time. We waited.

We did. And I'm glad we did. Yeah. You know, I think it turned out really well. This is one of those guys that, man, if you're trying to get into the head of Ed Gein and figure out why he did what he did, there's so many different components to this case. You know, I do think he had mental illness. I don't think there's any doubt about that. But, you know, the part that we're not used to is, and again, in the 1940s, 1950s, a man who I think deep down felt that, you know, he identifies.

more as a female. Right. Than a male. What were his options? You know, he wasn't going to have any type of fancy surgery. That wasn't really an option for Ed Gein. Let's just put it this way. He didn't have the options that, you know, a young man would have today.

No. Of figuring out how to live his life as a female. He chose to do something that, you know, I think is very rare. I don't know how many. cases of, actually, I don't know of any other cases like this, to be honest with you. There's some, there's cannibalism, there's necrophilia, but when you kind of put a lot of it together and then you talk about the suit and all that, it's just such a, a case that kind of stands out here all by itself. On a little island. Yeah, it's like on an island. All right, Gibbs, we got some

voicemails. We want to check those out. Yeah, let's hear them. All right. Hi, Mike and give me this is flora from tampa florida i just wanted to give you guys a call you guys are amazing you guys are wonderful you guys are my saviors during the day i do listen to your podcast every single day while i'm at work i just put in my headphones i get to work and i get to hear your wonderful voices so i do want to thank you for making my day so much easier so much better and so much more interesting. Thank you so much for what you guys do. You guys are amazing. Again, thank you. Have a great day. Bye. Wow. Like that. Yeah, wow. It's right. Thank you, Laura, very much. Make us feel great. Yeah. I thought she said team Gibby at the end, too. I don't think she said that,

but you hear things. I do hear things. Especially when it comes to people possibly saying that they're Team Gibby. Maybe. I think there's little voices that are going off in your head. I'm worried about you. You should be worried about that.

Hey guys, this is Aaron from Port of Spain, Trinidad. I just want to call in and let you guys know how much I enjoy the show.

I've been visiting for a few months now. The banter between you, Mike, and Gibby, it's really funny. I really laugh a lot. I just want to bring up episode 127 on the

high-fi mirrors. I actually had to rewind the episode when you mentioned that Pierre was from Trinidad, I was a bit shocked. Never heard of that incident. I actually asked around, did some research on Google, and I couldn't find too much information on him. And it's really crazy because we live in such a connected world now with social media.

I'm pretty sure if that was happening today, it would be on the front page of the newspapers here. Anyhow, yeah, just want to call on that you guys know, how much I enjoy this show and keep up the good work. Anyway, guys, keep your own time taken, and take it. Yeah. Bye-bye. Call from Trinidad.

Yeah, how about that? Wow. That is definitely the first person we've ever had from, uh, call from Trinidad. I don't think I've ever talked to anybody from Trinidad. No. Or known anybody that was from Trinidad.

It's the first for many. But how, you know, we love to hear those kind of stories of, he doesn't really have a connection to, you know, one of the killers in the high-fi murders, but that guy was from Trinidad.

Yeah. And, you know, to hear that on a podcast, right? turned at it's not a huge place. It's not plainfield Wisconsin, but it's not a huge place. So to hear that, you know, this really kind of horrific killer is from the place that you live, that is strange. Sure it is. Much like it is here in the United States when people don't realize that whoever it is is from their small town. Yeah. And they're shocked. I had no idea. Gibby's from there. Yeah. Givis from the place that I live. Wow. But Givis been there. Hi, Mike and Givie. Athena from

California here. Brand new listener. Love the podcast. You guys are doing such a great job. I've been binging ever since I found you guys two weeks ago and I can't tell you how many crazy looks I've gotten from people on the street, my coworkers, the customers I work with, just catching me laughing and gasping and talking to the podcast while I listen with headphones. Well, good job, guys. Keep it up. Stay safe and keep your own time ticking. So I think Gibbs, that's how you measure if you you're doing a halfway decent job. Yeah. Is when you can get people to actually talk into the, their phone, into the podcast.

You know, like, my wife does this with movies, scary movies. She talks to the people and tells them not to do something or you don't want to go in there. Yeah. And I say, you know, they can't hear you, right? Yeah, you're not helping them right at this point. Yeah. So that's when you know you've got a scary movie. That's when you know you're doing a pretty good job of whatever it is when you can get people to talk to

to something that can't talk back. That'd be a good way to make the next scary flick, man. Like, act like you're going to go where you shouldn't go. And they'd be like, look back and like, oh, yeah, thanks for telling me. That would be pretty funny. That's good idea. Go the opposite direction. So I'm surprised they never did that in one of those, like, scary movies.

Did you watch those? Yeah, I did. Not all of them, but a few of them. I think I've seen them all. They kind of got out there, but... Yeah. Hi, this is Jeff out in Utah calling to say how much I enjoy the show. long-time listener, first-time caller.

I know a couple weeks back, that's how long it's taken me to get the nerves to call, but a couple weeks back, you talked about the high-fi murder in Ogden, Utah. And it's interesting, a few months ago, a band was being interviewed on an alternative radio show in Salt Lake City, and their band name is Hi-Fi Murder. These guys are in their 20s, and it's a rock band, and they were getting grilled pretty hard about the name choice and a lot of pushback. I guess there's no bad publicity, but in this case, they were getting a lot of pushback. And as far as I know, their band is still called the high five murder. So, thanks you guys. I am Team Mike. You guys are just going to have to dupe that

one out, figure out for yourself, and that's Morph included. Keep it easy. Talk to you later. So team Gibby again. That's funny. She even gave more for a little love. Why you bring it another mic into this? I don't even bring the other mic. Like we need one more mic, right? Yeah.

So she said it, publicity. Sure. If you're a band, you want publicity. Yeah. Sometimes even if it's negative, that's a way to get publicity. That's a pretty rough choice. After we did, you know, that, the details of that, those murders, that incident, they were so bad. And, you know, I think people in Utah, to this day, because that was a pretty old case, to this day, that had that seared into their brains, into their consciousness, that's a tough choice, you know.

But if you're in your 20s, do you care? Yeah, probably don't care. Do you think about stuff like that? Probably not. Probably not going to shoot up the charts and. Yeah. Are we ever going to hear of them? Probably not.

Probably not with that, you know, marketing wise. Some sure the executives that. Sony and then places are like, yeah, we're going to have to change the name. So they probably will make it big in 10 years, but they won't be high-fi murder. There'll be something else. But that's it, Gibbs. No mailbag this week. No mailbag.

We're taping really early. But you're sitting there eating all that jerky? That was from last week. Yeah, sure. Sure. Okay. All right, man. So next week we'll have kind of probably a synopsis, a little rundown of how CrimeCon

went. If I survive. then there won't be any crime con talk for, you know, another year. So that's it. That's it for another episode of the true crime all the time podcast. So for Mike and Gabby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.