True Crime All The Time - Ed Kemper Part1

Episode Date: October 15, 2018

Ed Kemper is a serial killer who murdered 10 people. His victims included his grandparents and mother. Kemper is a huge man at 6'9" and almost 300 pounds. After being incarcerated, Kemper talked to the FBI about the reasons for committing his murders. This information greatly propelled the FBI profiling unit. The sessions played a large role in the first season of the hit Netflix series Mindhunter.Join Mike and Gibby for the 100th TCATT episode as they discuss the life and crimes of Ed Kemper. Kemper had a miserable childhood and he grew to hate his mother. This hatred for his mother, coupled with violent sexual fantasies, would fuel his desire to murder.You can help support the show by going to patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationPlease help support our sponsors:HomeChef - go to homechef.com/tcatt to get $30 off your first orderSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Welcome to episode 100 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime. Mike Gibson. Gibby, what is going on? What's happening, man? I cannot believe we are at episode 100. 100. 100. 100. The Hondo. The Hondo. The Hondo. The C note. Yeah, we can call it that as well. I do want to talk a little bit and reminisce. But, Let's do our Patreon shoutouts first. Okay. So we had Michelle DeRike. Thank you, Michelle. Michelle Danceman. Thank you, dancing.

Eric Freeze. Don't move. Beverly. Hey, Beth. George Montelvanos. Montevonos. Megan Cromer. Hey, Megan.

R.J. Cortez. What's up, Cortez? Catherine Traxel, aka Cat Tracks. Cat Tracks. What's up? I think everybody should have an AKA. A.k. Shantiana.

Bay Shantiana. Andrew Eastwood. What's up, Eastwood? Taylor Parks. Hey, Taylor. Rochelle. Just Rochelle, Rochelle. Hey, Rochelle.

Victoria Cooper. What's up? Janaya. Janaya. Which is a very cool name. She DeNia. Ben Klein. Hey, Ben.

Or Klein. I'm on the fence on this one. We'll go Ben Klein. Okay. Cyan Staker. Hey, Cyan. Be careful out there now. S. L. Huang.

Kelly Slatton. jumped up to our highest level. Hey, Kelly. Melissa Ashbrook. Ashbrook, you said? Ashbrook? Yeah, it's famous. That is famous?

No, I'm just, okay. Seen if you knew. No. Ashley Marie. Hey, Ashley. Magnus Abramson. Magnus. One of the strongest names we've ever had.

It is strong. Jennifer Autry. Hey, Jennifer. She actually jumped up to higher than our highest level. Really? Yeah. Setting new standards? New standards, reaching new heights.

Yeah. Breaking the glass ceiling. Anya Hymanen. Okay, Anya. Good on you. I'm going to leave it there. Shia Trappagen. Trappagen?

Yep. Could be some meet me up with the Trapegan family. Allison Turner. Hey, Allison. Christina Carricker. She's a character. Murder in my family, which is a podcast by my partner on criminology, Mike Morford. Thanks, Morp.

Yeah, so Morph is supporting us. We appreciate that. Yeah, he's good guy. Through his other podcast. Good guy. Jessica Eke. Hey, Jessica. And Brandy Nicole.

And thank you both, Brandy and Nicole. And then if we go back into the Vault Gibbs, this week we selected Kathy Davies. Oh, Kathy, hey. Yeah, we appreciate that, Kathy. Been with us a long time. We appreciate all the support, the new, the continued. We love it all. The ones that are thinking about it.

We appreciate you. You thought about it. You decided not to. We appreciate that, too. At least you gave it a thought. at least you thought about it. PayPal support. We had a little Sandy Say.

Hey, Sandy Say. Donna Harkins. Thank you, Donna. And Tracy Novick made probably one of the biggest donations we've ever had. Tracy, thank you. On PayPal. Awesome. So all of that is so very much appreciated.

I know I appreciate it. Now, Gives, we just yesterday put out a new Patreon episode on the murder of Diane McIver. We did. Episode number four. Yep. Our fourth Patreon. And we have another one coming out next week.

So good reason to sign up for Patreon if you're thinking about it. And then we're bounced back to unsolved. And then we'll go back to unsolved. Now, episode 100. So Gibbs, I want to go back 2016. I'm thinking about starting a true crime podcast. So we just jumped in the time warp machine? Yep.

Let's get in the hot tub time machine. All right. And, you know, I can remember it vividly coming up. with the name, coming up with the artwork. I was talking to my family. They were helping me, all that stuff. They were very involved in the decision, even though I think they thought I was a little delusional. Well, they always do about taking something like this on. But you know how I am, Gibbs. Once I decide to do something, to buy something, you go full steam. I go full bore, no doubt about it. And I remember coming into work and talking to you saying, hey, I think I want to do

a podcast, true crime podcast. How about you do it with me? Try it. See if you like it. You're like, sure. That's basically how you are. Yeah, whatever. I'll do that. Yeah. Sure, I'll give it a try. Yeah. Why not? What the hell? At least that sounds like something you would say. Yeah. And I think I'm like, as long as I have a comfortable chair. Yeah, I'm sure it's what you said. Actually, I think what you said was, what in the world is a podcast. It actually was like, do what? Because at that point, I don't think you were listening to podcast. And now here we are 100 episodes later and, you know, we're still growing. We are. And I know I speak for you Gibbs when I say that we cannot thank our fans and listeners enough for helping us to get where we are. Now, I don't know where we are, but wherever we are

we're there because of you. We only got there because of all the great people that listen, download, tell their friends, support us in all kinds of different ways. Right. And it is amazing. It is amazing. And it's much appreciated for sure. It is. Each and every one of you that has stuck with us from the time that you listened until now.

Now, we'll have to plan on what to do for the two hondo. Two hondo. Episode 200. That's going to be amazing. Now, I did promise you a new chair for episode 100. Yeah. You are not sitting in a new chair. Still sitting in the wood, it's slatted one.

Slatted. I like the word slatted. I did order the chairs. I already said that on a previous podcast. Oh, yeah. But apparently I may have made a bad decision going with chairs, chairs, chairs, because they have not arrived yet. Yeah.

magically, they have not arrived yet. They've only been ordered a long time ago. Are they still being made in some sweatshop somewhere? I didn't say they were ordered a long time ago. I ordered them like a week or two ago. But I thought for sure that was plenty of time. Did you not pay for the express delivery? No.

I never pay for warranties and I don't pay for faster delivery. Those are two things I don't pay. If I was buying, I would have paid for the express delivery. If you were buying, we would be sitting on the floor with our laptops on our knees. I'd get you like a little pillow. Your wallet is sewn shut on purpose, literally. Next time I spend the night at a hotel, I'd get two pillows from the hotel, bring them back, give you one to sit on. That way, I don't want to break into my own wallet, you know.

That is true. All right. Enough of the reminiscing. But again, we do appreciate it. Yeah, absolutely. And we love everybody. And we couldn't do it without you. We just could not do it. And we certainly can't do another 100, 100 episodes without the continued support. Yes. So let's dive into Ed Kemper, the co-ed killer. This is one that we kind of saved. We picked especially for the 100th episode. He murdered 10 people in all, a little bit spread out. And obviously we're going to get into all the details as we do. Six of the victims were young women that he picked up hitchhiking.

So we're going to be talking about hitchhiking. Probably maybe not in this episode, probably more in episode number two. But that's where he got the co-ed killer moniker. The other four murders, which will go into detail as well, were either family members or family friends. I was raging inside. There was just incredible energies, positive and negative, depending on a mood.

That would trigger one or the other. And outside, I looked troubled at times. Other times I looked moody. Other times, perfectly serene. Not very sane. but again, people weren't even aware of what was happening. So that was Ed, and we're going to hear from Ed quite a bit because the great thing about Ed Kemper, that's probably weird to say, the great thing about Ed Kemper, but he loves to talk

and he has done a number of interviews over the years. There's quite a bit of audio of Ed Kemper and we're going to sprinkle it in in the episodes. Now, Gibbs, I do want to go back in a very early episode of TCAT. And I don't remember what number it was. You and I were talking, it was a very early episode, though. We were talking about height of killers. Yeah. Remember that?

I remember that. And I made the almost unforgivable fo'paw of saying, yeah, Ed was really tall. He was like 6'4, 6'5, something like that. Obviously, he was 6'9. And I heard about it. quite a long time. You did, man. Took a beating over that one. It was well deserved. That was, uh, that was pretty bad on my part. But he was in fact, six nine. All right, Gibbs. So let's get into background where we like to

start. Edmund Emile Kemper, the third. And that is a mouthful who was also called Guy, which is kind of a strange nickname. Sure it is. Guy Kemper. Hey, Guy. What's happening, Guy? Guy. People would There's a lot of people that probably guess your name or your nickname. Just sometimes I call a guy. I was like, hey, what's up, guy? Are you doing, guy? He'd be like, man, how do he know my name was guy? How do you know my secret nickname?

What I know him from? But he was born in Burbank, California on December 19th, 1948 to mother Clarnel and father E. E. Kemper Jr. So same exact name. Edmund Emile Kemper Jr. was his dad. He was a World War II vet and an electrician, but I read Gibbs that Ed Kemper weighed 13 pounds at birth. Wow, man. 13 pounds.

Sorry for his mom. My two daughters together didn't weigh 13 pounds, added up. That's a lot, man. That's a big baby pushing out. It is. But Big Ed definitely got his size from his parents. His mom was six feet tall and his dad was six eight. So this is a big family.

He was the second of three children. So he had an older sister and a younger sister. But his parents had a rocky relationship that ultimately led to them separating when Ed was nine. And then they finally divorced when he was 13. And there's a quote from his father who was involved in a time. bomb testing after the war. So he fought in World War II. But then he after the war, he had some part to play in in the bomb testing. But he said suicide missions in wartime. And the later atomic bomb testings that I did were nothing compared to living with Clarnel.

That's pretty rough. It is pretty rough. You are essentially saying that your wife is a monster. and that I would rather go on a suicide mission in war time than live with this woman. But Ed had a hard time getting over the absence of his father, but an even harder time living with his mother. His mother remarried a number of times. But it really was the actions of his mother throughout his childhood that would have the most effect on Ed. And none of these would be in a good way.

You know, she was Gibbs a domineering woman who had problems with alcohol and she berated, belittled, humiliated. You pick any word that is putting someone down. And that's what she did to Ed on a regular basis. So she was a mean alcoholic. She was. Yeah. She was just a, you know, she was not a nice person in general.

Now, we talked about Ed's size. he would grow to be 6-9 and close to 300 pounds. I mean, this guy was a behemoth. Actually, I just like to use the word behemoth. I was just wondering if you just pick that out just for that only. Yeah, I do. But he was a big kid as well, right? 13 pounds at birth.

He's going to grow to be 6-9-300. You have to imagine all the way growing up through his childhood. He was much larger than the other boys and girls his age, much like yourself. Okay. Always the biggest guy in the group, right? Always. I just make sure I'm surrounded by kids.

Just hang out with kids. But unlike you, Gibbs, Ed Kemper had this irrational fear of being hurt by his fellow classmates. So we're talking about a guy that, again, much like yourself, could probably take on three, four kids his age of. at a time. Oh yeah. Like you used to do back in the day on the playground. Right. Just swinging kids, right? Throwing them left and right. It's the only way to do it. But he is deathly afraid of being hurt by other kids that probably couldn't even hurt him if they wanted to and would be too scared to even try. That's why I say it pretty much is an irrational fear. Now, some kids have that fear and it's very rational, right?

Because they're smaller, they get picked on. You know, that's not Ed Kemper. There's nobody trying to pick on Ed Kemper. None of they're smart. Except his mother. So by the age of 10, he is living with his mother and sisters. They moved out to Helena, Montana. And it talked about his mother, you know, belittling him.

But she started forcing him to sleep in the basement while his sister slept upstairs. You know, not just told him to. She actually locked him down there because she was worried that he might do something to harm his sisters. You ever been locked in the basement? A few times. Now, this wasn't good for Ed. You know, it caused him nightmares. He started sleepwalking.

So he's sleeping in the basement, locked up. His mother also made fun of him about his look. would make comments to the effect that, you know, no girl would ever want to date someone as ugly as him. This is your own mother. That's your own mama. Mama. Saying, you're so ugly. Nobody's ever going to want to date you.

That's worse than any mama joke. Worse than any, you're so ugly joke. I mean, even if you are that ugly, your mom's not going to tell you. She's going to say, you know what? You're great. I love you. You're so handsome. You're so handsome.

That's what moms are supposed to do. You're just a beautiful child. She also repeatedly told him that he would never amount to anything. The Hill of Beans. He would never amount to Hill of Beans. I haven't heard that one in a long time. And when she put him down in these ways, she had a number of different ways that she did it, but she usually brought his father into the conversation,

comparing Ed Kemper the third's failings to his father's. She never showed Ed an ounce of affection. There just wasn't any. In later interviews, Ed gave a number of different theories for why she did these things. One was that he believed he reminded his mother of his father and she had a hard time with that. He also talked a lot about how much he hated his mother. And from an early age, Gibbs fantasized about doing very, very bad things to her. My mother was a sick, angry, hungry, and very sad woman.

I hated her. But I wanted to love my mother. And I watched the alcohol increase. I watched her social life drop off. I watched her get bizarre. She had terrible pain from her life, earlier life, her upbringing, a failed marriage with my father. I'm a constant reminder of that failure.

I mean, you can tell it really stuck with him. You know, the effects of what, you know, his mom's disease had on her impacted him as well. Well, and it's going to play out as we go through this episode and especially into the next. but there's no doubt. His mom and what she did to him when he was little, it affected him the rest of his life. Yeah. And it was a big part,

if not the biggest reason for, you know, why he did the things he did. Or if it wasn't, he blamed it on her. Let's put it that way. Now, we talked about the fact that his mom had some worries about him

harming his sisters. And there was some reason for that. You know, his sisters would tell stories of how Ed cut the heads off of their dolls and that he, you know, played a lot of kind of sick, twisted games with them. One game he called Gas Chamber and another game that he called Electric Chair where apparently he had his sisters tie him to a chair and then pretend to throw the switch. and then he would rithe around like he was being electrocuted. Sounds like something kids would do.

That sounds like a typical Friday night, right? Yeah. I don't know. I don't remember playing any games like that when I was a kid. Maybe a little operation. Back in the day, played some Atari. You always go back to your Atari. Oh, man, I love video.

You know, I love video games. But, you know, kick the can. That was a cool game that we used to play outside. Did you ever play that? The beer can. You played drink the beer can as a kid. you kick it. Then you kick it. But I just, I don't, I can't imagine myself and my friends or my siblings or whoever it is at a young age playing electrocution, electric chair. Now, what Ed would say

was that he remembered as a kid seeing on the news a story about a prisoner down in Texas being electrocuted. And it really kind of sparked, no pun intended, something in him. Ed, tortured, mutilated, and killed animals. And do we ever do a serial killer story where they didn't start out harming animals? Seems to be the go-to thing. It's very rare. His mother found multiple cats, pet cats that Ed killed. Now, there's a lot of stories about these cats.

And that's the other thing I want to talk about. So Ed did a lot of interviews. He talked to a lot of people. He also told a lot of different stories, some that conflicted with others. You know, there's one that he mutilated and buried a cat while it was still alive in the yard. He dug it back up, cut its head off and impaled it on a stick for, you know, his mother to find or, you know, who the hell is watching this kid that he's parading around the yard with

an animal's head on a stick. Yeah. Another story has him using a machete to kill a cat, dismembering it and keeping some of the body parts in his closet, which apparently his mother later found. Imagine finding those? No, I can't, but also don't know how you explain that. Now, obviously his mother was not a mother of the year candidate, but at the same time, gives, she probably wasn't too far off in her mistrust or, you know, those concerns that she

had with Ed, right? He's displaying some concerning behavior. I think she's found some cats. Her daughters are telling her stories that, you know, he's playing sick games, beheading their dolls. There's some reason for concern. I'd been like, why are you in my closet, mom? Don't touch my thing. It's down my closet, mom. You don't touch my shit. I won't touch your shit. I'm not in your closet, mom.

Why are you in my closet mom? But keep in mind, this kid's pretty big, even at a very young age. Yeah, I wouldn't have really said it to my mom, by the way. No, I know. It went over very well at all, at all. I said the word, what did I say? I said a word to my mom one time. It wasn't even a cuss word.

And she had this big bag of marshmallows, the big marshmallows. Yeah, the jumbo one. Yeah, the jumbo one. I might have told the story, but she literally swung it as harsh as she could just smacked me right in a face. I can't remember what the word was. It was probably, you know, it was ass or something. It wasn't a quote-unquote cuss word, but my mom's don't play. Did you not say the word ever again?

No, I did. I just didn't say it around her. I mean, it was just a bag of marshmallows. Yeah, but it hurt. It was a bag of marshmallows. I probably cried. It was probably jet puff marshmallows. I probably cried.

It was craft, by the way. We bought eight. We bought craft. Was it 16, 17, 17? I was 23 and I cried like a baby. You're already living on your own, but she's still, she's like, you're not going to say ass here. But you have to wonder, right, with him so big. Now, she's six foot herself.

I have the feeling Gibbs that she could probably take care of herself. Yeah, I think so. I think so. But he's six. If he got out of line, even as a kid, you know, he's pretty, he's not six nine yet, but he was, pretty big. Yeah. But the thing that really hit me is she's got these concerns about him. She's finding cats and things like that. She doesn't lift a finger. She doesn't go out of her way to do anything to get him help or at least have him looked at or checked out. Right. Yeah. I mean,

would things have been different? Who knows? But still think as a parent you make the effort. All right, Gibbs. Let's take a quick break to talk. about our sponsor home chef you know with all the options out there how can you decide what meal delivery service is best for you we all have a busy hectic schedule which makes it very difficult to you go to the grocery prep all your meals so why don't you simplify your day and try home chef they offer 16 different delicious meal options each week from steak to chicken seafood to vegetarian Once you join, it's as simple as selecting your meals and customizing your delivery dates.

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Homechef.com slash teacat. In later interviews, Kemper said that it brought him joy. And he derives some power in lying to his family about what happened to the cats once they were found. Now, I'm still not sure how you lie your way out of. of the cat parts are in my closet. At least he was in the cradle. You going cats in the cradle on me? I just did.

Silver spoon? I was stopping that cats in the cradle. All right, let's hear from that again. I'm saying I've wanted to kill my mother since I was eight years old, and I'm not proud of that. It started with surrogates at a non-human level. Physical objects, my possessions, other people's, destruction of things that are cared about. And then destruction of things that are living on a lower, level small animals, insects, animals, and then finally people.

Finally people. Yeah, we'll definitely get there. But the takeaway from that interview or from that clip for me was we talk a lot about small animals, right? That's very normal to, that's not normal, but that's normal for us to hear or research and talk about in serial killers. Yeah. He mentioned the word insects.

Man, you kill, we kill insects every day. No, but I think for him that was a power trip. Like you would, you might kill an insect because it's a pest or you don't want it to get into something. Why just stop on it because I feel like a giant. Multiply. I get the feeling that he was, he was doing it to murder an insect to get the. Yeah, probably tortured it. Yeah.

Or thought it was being tortured. Right. He might have been pulling the wings off of things. Yeah. Or I just smash the spider and I'm done. But you don't hear that much about insects. No, not really. But it could be a good precursor. But the other thing is you very rarely, you don't get this level of intimacy with many serial killers the way that you do with Ed.

Right. Because he was so willing to talk. Yeah. That's why he made such a great subject for Robert Rehous. and John Douglas and the FBI profilers because he was willing to tell them what was going on in his head. And it was fascinating. Yeah, it still is. Kempter would say that as a fairly young boy, he developed some twisted fantasies involving sex and violence. There's a story Gibbs about him having a crush on one of his grade school teachers that he apparently told about to his sister.

And his sister allegedly asked him why he just didn't go up and kiss her. And Ed replied, if I kiss her, I would have to kill her first. Not if I kiss her, I would have to kill her. Right. I would have to kill her before I kissed her. Then I'll kiss her. Okay. I mean, it's strange. It's not good to say either way. But, you. you're really getting insight into him the way that he says it there. Do you have any crushes on your teachers and school games? Yeah, I did. All right, good talk.

Yeah. You want to give any of them a shout out on the podcast? They knew who they are. Thanks for those day field trips. Thanks for the memories. I don't remember any in grade school for sure. Now, Ed's relationship with his mother, it was bad from, from, from, the get-go, but it got even worse over the years. And when he was 14, he ran away to California

to live with his father. And by this point, his father had remarried and he also had a stepson. So Big Ed shows up, unannounced. And this went okay for a little while, but I don't think his dad was as thrilled to have him around as Ed had hoped. Right. His dad is leading a new life. He's got a new wife. He's got a new stepson. All of a sudden, here comes Ed into the picture. It's bound to cause some friction. Frickshone.

I like the way you said that. And it did. He had trouble getting along with his stepmother. Ooh, the stepmother. Had trouble getting along with his stepbrother. I guess you would call him, right? You had a stepbrother, didn't you? I did.

How did you get along? I still do. Get along good? No, we fought like crazy. Did you? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Just case he's listening.

How are you doing? And he had trouble getting along with his stepmother and his stepbrother. I mean, it gives the whole family thought he was odd. Yeah. And that's one thing you're going to hear about Ed. Everywhere he went, people thought he was just a little bit off, a little bit odd. But we know he is. Right.

And I guess the question you have to ask is, how long can you hide that? you've hidden it for most of your life. It comes out every now and then. Maybe. Maybe not. As far as we know. So like I said, this worked for a little bit, but Ed was eventually shipped to live with his paternal grandparents on their 17-acre ranch in North Fork, California.

And this was during Christmas time, 1963. And again, I talked about Ed telling stories, talking to reporters. There's a couple of different versions of how he ended up with his grandparents that December. In one interview, Kemper says that it was his father who took him to his grandparents because he was tired of Ed upsetting his new family. There's other versions out there. I didn't hear Ed say this himself, but there's other versions that says Ed went back to his mother's house in Montana, but she was about ready to marry to marry.

again. And she didn't want to put up with him either. Yeah. And so she shipped him off to his grandparents. But no matter what, the one thing that is for certain is that he ends up there in late 63. So let's talk about his grandparents. His grandmother, Maude, was an author who wrote children's stories. His grandfather, who was also named Edmund. So these are his paternal grandparents. So you got three Edmonds here. Yeah, you do. He was a retired state employee. So here's 15-year-old Ed Kemper living on this big ranch with his grandparents. He's going to high school. He's probably about 6 foot 4. He actually was 6 foot 4 at the age of 15. He was described as an average student, even though he had a really high IQ. Was it like mine 170, 180? It's not quite. I mean, later on it would be documented in the I've heard it from 135 all the way to 145. Okay.

So average, you know. For you average. For most people near genius. But the thing is, he was intelligent. He just didn't like school and didn't care. So, you know, he was an average student. But the thing about Ed, you know, he didn't go around school picking fights. He didn't go around bullying people as he could have easily done at his size.

You know, a lot of times when you have these really big kids, they exert their dominance over everyone else because they can. Nobody's going to stand up to them. Nobody can do anything to them. But Ed didn't do that. Remember, he's got a fear of smaller kids beating him up anyway. He was pretty quiet and he stayed out of trouble. Now, he was socially awkward, especially with members of the opposite sex.

And that's going to come up a lot later on in life. Now, one thing that Ed would say was that he hated living on his grandparents' farm, their ranch. He didn't get along with them all that well. Well, I don't think they really wanted them. I don't think they had a choice. Again, who did he get along with? Right. He, everybody that he lived with, he had trouble getting along with.

and they all saw something in him that gave them concern. His grandparents were no different. You know, the relationship between them was described as tense. Kemper would say that his grandmother nagged him constantly. And this caused him to develop some of the same hatred, the same sick fantasies towards her that he had towards his mother. Well, I mean, nobody likes to be nagged. nagdad all the time.

And I know you are pointedly saying that directly at me. I'm just saying. Because I can sometimes be a bit of a nagger. Oh, yeah. I mean, no, no, man. You're supposed to say no, man. No, man. No, not you.

But I think, you know, what Ed saw in his grandmother was his mother. You know, all the bad traits that he saw in his mother, kind of transferred them. Sure. And started seeing them in his grandmother. But these fantasies that he developed, they're violent, you know, where he envisioned killing his grandmother. Now, there was one thing that Ed liked about the ranch.

And there really was only one thing. And that was he loved to go hunting with the 22 rifle that his grandfather had given him. He used the rifle to hunt rabbits, go. foofers, squirrels, you know, all types of small game. And he would later say that, you know, this was really his only release. Sometimes he would shoot at birds, but his grandparents got on him for that. They didn't mind him shooting small game on the ground. They just didn't want him firing up in the air, which is good gun safety for everyone. Yeah, it's dangerous. It's how you get a bullet to come through your roof one day. Oh, wait, it happened to you. Yeah, not through my roof,

but through the top part of my house. Yeah. So Kemper goes through school that year. And once school let out, he went home to Montana to stay with his mother and sisters. I think he was planning on spending the summer there. But the stay was not going to last long. And he was back at the ranch with his grandparents within a couple of weeks. I didn't get all the particulars of what went wrong.

But I'm assuming Gibbs, it was much of the same that he experienced. when he was younger. Yeah. I just don't think his mom really ever wanted to have anything to do with him. But the trip wasn't good for him because when he got back to his grandparents' house, he was different. He was worse than he had been before he left. His grandmother saw it and it worried her.

I mean, she didn't like him having the rifle in the first place. And it was said that as time went on, she started locking up the guns in the house that belonged to her husband. And on some days, she would pack one on. She would carry one on, you know, her person. So this is her grandson, but I think she's very concerned with the way that Ed is acting, maybe even scared that he might do something. Yeah, she ought to be nervous.

And maybe it's that mother slash grandmother intuition. that something just wasn't right. You know, sometimes moms, grandmalls, they get that. They do. I believe in that. Well, I do too. But unfortunately, for Maud, she would be proven right in the worst possible way. It was August 27th, 1964.

So you have all this anger, this hatred that's been boiling up inside Ed Kemper for a long time, directed first at his mother. now at his grandmother who he felt basically treated him very similar. Right. To the way that his mother did. So on this day, he's arguing with his grandmother in the kitchen. Something I imagine probably happened pretty frequently. Again, I think they butted heads a lot.

She was sitting at the table putting the finishing touches on an article that she had written for the Boy Scout magazine, Boys Live. And I know Gibbs, you still get that. You're still a subscriber. I don't know why. No, I get it because you asked me to keep getting it and bring it over here. So I just bring it in the wrapper. It's already, you know, let you open it out. You get so excited when you open it up.

That one, that one backfired on me. Yeah. It's only that one that's ever backfired on you. Out of 100 episodes. No, you get me every now and then. But at one point in this argument, Kemper grabbed his gun and, you know, he announced that he was going to go outside and hunt small game. And his grandmother made this comment to him that he better not be shooting at birds anymore.

And apparently this sent him over the edge. It wasn't the first time that she had said it. It angered him the other times. But this time, it really set him off. And he walked to the door of the house. He turned around. Now, his grandmother had her back to him at the time. table. Ed raised the rifle, leveled it, and shot her in the back of the head. He then fired two more

shots into her back. So he goes over to his grandmother and he dragged her body into the bedroom. Now, there are some newspaper accounts back during, you know, that time frame in the 60s that have him going back into the kitchen, grabbing a butcher's knife, and then returning. turning to the bedroom to stab his grandmother multiple times because he wanted to make sure she was dead. I mean, that's definitely a way to determine if somebody's dead is stabbing them. So it just might be easier just to go for their pulse. I was going to say, I think there's many other ways to determine that.

You don't need to stab someone to figure out. But this is his mind. Well, sure. I mean, we're not talking what we or somebody in there. Let's just say you're not talking like you would do anything like that. I would not do it that way. You know, I could use the mirror under the nose. There's a lot of different ways.

I could feel for a pulse. How many people carry a mirror around, though? Well, you do probably because you like the prompt a little bit. I like to make sure my hair is nice. Yeah, you do. Right before we record, because I don't understand why you do that because nobody's going to see you, but you still want to make sure like you look right. I want to make sure the hair in the back is nice and neat.

Yeah, it's cute. You got that little, that little container, some kind of hair tonic or something. It's pomade. Palmade. You got a little pomade. You got a little pomade. Well, I want to look nice for you, too. Look, that's a bit too far.

That's part of it. Yeah. Now, after Kemper killed his grandmother, he realized he had a big problem. He's murdered his grandmother. And his grandfather, who was out grocery shopping, was going to be coming home. What's he going to do? Call Ghostbusters? I don't think that's going to help.

But it's just supposed to be a perfect lead in because you said, what's you going to do? What's you going to do when they come for you? Yeah, called Ghostbusters. But his grandfather did come back about 15, 20 minutes after this. And he's got a truckload of groceries. So Kemper's watching him as he stepped out of his vehicle. He got out. He turned around, you know, back into the truck to start taking out the groceries.

And it was at this point that Ed, brought the rifle up, lined up the shot, and he fired and shot his grandfather in the back of the head. After he did this, he went over, he dragged his grandfather's body into the garage and he shut the door. And then a month later, I'm up living with my grandparents in the mountains, and 10 months later, I murdered them. It made it worse to be on top of a mountain. I was literally on top of a mountain when it happened. And I could sense, I sensed everybody in the world to stop and what they were doing, turning around, saw what I did, and are coming to get me.

And I knew I was paranoid at that moment. I knew anybody that came up there and gave me a funny look or a fishy eye or quizzical look out of blowing their brains out thinking they were coming to get me. And if it had been in a city, I would have been a mass murderer at age 15. I would have killed until they'd gun me down. I wouldn't have been able to reason my way out of it. I was scared to death and I was violent. I felt my back hit that wall. I was the rabbit that always ran, that always backed away, always burned his bridges.

Suddenly there weren't anymore. And my back hit that wall and I came out screaming and kicking and shooting. Well, that sums it all up. What's interesting about that part for me is he's essentially saying, you know, it's a good thing he was isolated because if he would have been in a populated area, he would have gone on a mass murder killing spree. Essentially saying anybody that would have looked at him, come up to him, he would have assumed they were, they knew what he had done and they were there for him. So he was going to start firing. But he, but he wasn't, right? He's, he's out on this big ranch in the middle of nowhere.

But this whole thing to me, Gibbs, is unconceivable. You know, growing up, my grandparents were everything to me. Yeah, so was my. I mean, I loved going over, you know, to their houses, both sets of grandparents, spending time with them. But then again, you and I are not wired like Ed Kemper. No, not even close. So you're a 15-year-old boy.

who has just murdered his grandparents. What do you do? Not Disneyland. I feel like I'm that guy in that movie Speed. What do you do, hot shot? What do you do? Now, for Kemper, what he did was he picked up the phone and he called the person that he hated most in the world, his mother. Okay.

Back in Montana. Right. Now, he had no illusions about getting away with the murders, which is why it's kind of strange to me that. he chose to move the bodies. Right. He placed his grandmother in, in the bedroom. He essentially hit his grandfather's body in the, in the garage and closed the door. Maybe it was just instinct.

Maybe it was a reaction based on fear. I don't know. But his grandparents, they did have friends, right? And they had other family. They had people in the area that would eventually miss them and would eventually come check on them. So I don't think Ed thought that he was going to get away with this, that he was even trying to get away with this. So he called his mom and he told her what he had done.

I've just killed my grandparents. And apparently his mom told Ed to call the police and to tell them the truth. And that's exactly what he did. And when the police showed up, they find Big Ed Kemper. He's just sitting on the porch, just waiting for them. them patiently and they took him in, hauled him into the station for questioning. One officer was quoted in the paper saying that Kemper told him he didn't want to live with either of his parents and he didn't like living in North Fork.

And I guess when they asked him why he did it, Ed said, I just wanted to see what it felt like to kill Grandma. And it's kind of a big quote. It's a quote that you see a lot of. about Ed Kemper because it kind of really speaks to the monster in him. You know, when you hear those words, it's like, I did it because I wanted to know what it felt like. Just had to know.

Had to know what it felt like. I mean, murder is senseless, but that is like, you can't get any more senseless than that. No. No, that's crazy, man. And he went on to tell authorities that he had been thinking about killing him. her for some time. Now, when it came to his grandfather, when they asked him about why he killed his grandfather, he said a number of different things. Ed has said that he killed him because he knew he would be upset at what he had done, that he had killed his grandmother. He's also said that

he killed his grandfather because he didn't want him to see his wife dead and then turn around and have a heart attack and die. That one's a little hard to understand. I get not wanting to see your wife dead, but I'm going to go ahead and kill you so that you don't have a heart attack and die. Right. I'm just going to cut that off at the pass.

Just going to try to help out. It's very thoughtful. Yeah. That's really hard to reconcile. But again, this is a 15-year-old kid, you know, making these statements. Now, some of these might have been made later on. Again, he did so many different interviews, but some of these do come from the actual questioning back then when he's 15 years old. Kemper was sentenced to the California Youth Authority for an indefinite term. And it would be up to them to decide what happened to him. Ultimately, they decided to send him to a Taskadero State Hospital before his 16th birth.

birthday. So again, he's still 15 years old. A taskadero. A taskadero. Sounds like something's out of Laverna and sherry. I think you're thinking of pinky tuscadero. Ooh, that's it right there. Pinky Tuscadero. See how good, how synced up we are? Oh, no. That is good. After 100 episodes, it happens. I picked that right out of your brain. So at At Atascadero, he underwent psychiatric testing, was diagnosed as a sociopath, a psychopath, as having paranoid schizophrenia. But this was also when they found out that he had an extremely high IQ. Again, not high as yours, Ghiby, but near genius level. Getting up there.

So one other thing that you have in common with Ed Kemper, your size, your smarts, and some other things that we probably can't talk about. Well, we shouldn't. We shouldn't. Right. Not that we can't. We should. It's best that we don't.

Right. One thing Kemper did while he was at Atascadero was he studied everyone around him. He studied the staff as they administered, you know, all of these tests on him. He talked with the therapist and he figured out their language. And he figured out what they needed to hear from him to report that he was making good progress. So that's one thing. But the other group he studied there were violent sex offenders. So keep in mind, this is a 15, 16 year old kid listening to people talk about the violent sexual crimes they committed. He's a kid that has no sexual experience. You know his mom never talked to him about the birds and the bees. He never got any sex education. How did they call it the birds and the bees, by the way? I don't know.

I don't know. Somebody will write in and tell us why they call it the birds and the bees. Yeah. I don't know why. He's at that point in his life when his hormones are going nuts. And what he learns about sex comes from these unbelievably violent offenders that he's incarcerated with. But he studied them, just like he did the staff. He studied their methods.

and most importantly, he made note of what they did wrong and why they got caught. So he's listening to all of these stories from these other inmates. And they're not ashamed, right, to tell these stories, not in a place like that. Right. They're probably bragging. And people are trying to one up each other. But he's taking it all in and he's digesting all of this information. Now, he's getting a.

a sexual thrill from it and it's fusing, you know, bad thoughts, violent sexual thoughts. But he's also picking, you know, what they did apart and figuring out how not to do what they did did that that caused them to get caught. He would ask them questions. You know, what, what evidence did you leave behind? Did you attack someone close to you that police were able to tie back to you? Again, he just filed all this information away and he would use it later when he began committing his wave of murders. Kemper was released from a taskadero in 1969. He served almost five years in this state mental hospital.

Keep in mind, this was not a prison, right? It was a hospital for the criminally insane. But the biggest reason why he was released was that he used what he was. that he used what he had learned from the staff over the years. He was able to snow them all into thinking that he was a changed person. He's going to be on the straight and narrow from now on. You believe that, don't you Gibbs? I do believe that he's not going to be on the straight and narrow.

Now, we know he's not. In reality, he secretly fantasized about murder, mutilation, even cannibalism. the whole time he was at a Taskadero. And you know these fantasies had to grow in intensity gives as he was hearing all of these degenerates around him talk about the perverse sex crimes they committed. I'm sure they spared no detail these guys telling their stories. Kemper was quoted as saying,

if I told the staff at a Taskadero about killing, cutting off heads and eating body, I don't think I would have ever got out. I hid the fantasies from them. They couldn't see inside my head once I thought they could because I'd be sitting there having fantasies and people would give me funny looks. Yeah, I don't think if you admit to the psychiatric staff

that you're fantasizing about, you know, cutting people's heads off, eating their bodies. That's not your ticket out. No, it's not going to be anywhere close to your ticket out. But again, he's smart. This is an intelligent person. And he's manipulative. So Kemper is released.

But the staff at Atascadero recommended one thing very strongly that he not be released into the custody of his mother. Right. They had probably gotten to the root of some of his issues, probably in therapy. They knew him. being back with his mother was not going to be good for him. But it wasn't up to them. Ultimately, it was up to the California Youth Authority. And they would supervise Ed for a period of time.

But five months later, they made the decision to release him to his mother's custody. Send him back to mom. Send him to mom. Now, he's not going back to Montana because by this time, she had moved to Santa Cruz, California. Yeah. So he's going to stay in California. But again, they did the exact thing

that the professional staff at the hospital for the criminally insane said, you shouldn't do. I don't care what you do, but this is the one thing that you shouldn't do. Right. And that's what they did. And that's exactly what they did.

I got parole to my mother. A taskadero decided that I didn't, never need to talk to her again at all. Don't give her a Christmas present. Leave her alone. She got her pound of flesh out of you. I wasn't sniveling about my mother to them. I didn't like to hear what they had to say about her. She went through three husbands like a hot knife through butter. Four months after I was out, I was back into the fantasy bag. My first date was an absolute disaster. It wasn't her fault, you know, and I didn't blame her even then. I'm saying it was a terrible tragedy, but boy,

she didn't ever talk to me again. It was awful. It wasn't sexual or grabbing at her. I was just such a dork, taking her to a John Wayne movie and Denny's. It's terrible. I'd never been on a date. 16, that was cool, you know. I'd never been on a date. You know, I was locked up since I was 15. But I can't tell her that. Oh, gee, don't mind me. You know, she kind of got hung up on my looks or whatever. You know, I mean, she's a gorgeous young lady, pure class, and she saw something there that I guess wasn't there, and, boy, she found out quick. The John Wayne movie and Denny's. That's like a hot Friday night for me. Yeah. It sounded like a pretty good. I'm thinking, Denny's. I'm going to get the moons over my hammy. Yeah. Maybe two.

I miss Denny's, man, at 2.30 in the morning. What happened to Denny's? I don't know, but I miss it at 2.30 in the morning. And it was cheap, too. It was cheap. And it was one of the few places back in the day that when you'd had a couple of pops earlier that night, you could go to and get something to eat. It was really Taco Bell and Denny's. Oh, you mean those pops that you had the Jack Daniels in? Yeah. Okay. So you do get a sense. from that clip, the awkwardness of Kemper as it relates to socializing with females. You can hear it in the way he talks. Yeah.

He called himself a big dork. And he was a big dork. Six foot nine. He's just a big dork that murdered people. He did attend some classes at a nearby community college and reportedly he got straight A's. But Ed Kemper wanted to be a police officer very badly. but he was too tall to be a cop. So I guess they had, and probably still do, I don't know, but minimum height requirements,

right? You have to be so tall to ride this ride. But they also had maximum height requirements to be a police officer, either local, state, at least in California during this time. And they probably have it all over. I just don't know much about that. But because of that, he found out that he could, never be a police officer. And this was devastating to him. It was something that he really wanted to do.

And we'll probably get into it more in the next episode, right? He liked to fraternize with the police. He liked to talk to them. And they liked him too. They liked to hear his stories until they found out that he was killing people. They didn't like him as much. But I don't know how he was ever going to be a cop anyway. I mean, he had murdered his grandparents. Be a problem? I don't know how that would happen. It would be, but he's going to, he would find a solution to that, but he could never find a solution to the height thing. So it's 1970. Ed Kemper is a free man and he started to work to get his juvenile record sealed. Right? This is how he's going to solve that problem. And during this process, he had to meet with

a number of psychiatrists, multiple psychiatrists multiple times. But all of the reports from the psychiatrists came back basically saying the same thing. Ed Kemper is a pretty normal guy who no longer had any violent traits. Ed's juvenile record would eventually be sealed in 1972. But by this time, Kemper had already begun murdering. And we'll expand on it a little bit. in the next episode Gibbs, but he's going to see the psychiatrist, right, who ultimately come back and say, hey, this guy's doing good. He's, he's very normal. No more violent traits. In the meantime,

he's murdering women. Yeah, he is. But he's smart enough to put it on for them. He knows how to talk to them. He knows what to say. So we've talked about Kemper's hatred for his mother. He would ultimately take out this frustration and hatred on six young coeds and then eventually against his mother and one of her friends. I'm picking up young women and I'm going a little bit farther each time. It's a daring kind of a thing. At first there wasn't a gun. I'm driving along. We'd go to a vulnerable place where there aren't people watching where I could act out and I say no I can't And then a gun is in the car, hidden. And this craving, this awful raging eating feeling inside.

I could feel it consuming my insides. This fantastic passion. It was overwhelming me. It was like drugs. It was like alcohol. A little isn't enough. At first it is. And as you adjust to that psychologically and physically, you take more and more and more.

It's the same process. So it finally came down to the thing of, do I dare bring this gun out? Already realizing if that gun comes out, something has to happen. So just a little teaser there for the next episode where we'll dive into Kemper becoming the co-ed killer and him taking action against the one person

that to him started it all. But that's it for episode one, Ed Kemper. Yes, it was really good. And I know the episodes to come are really going to be good. Oh, yeah, the next one, we're really going to get into the mind of Ed Kemper. And he is going to do some horrific stuff. And we'll have a lot more audio as well because he did talk about the murders.

Not so much about his grandparents. You know, that was the one thing that struck me. I don't really think he wanted to talk about that one as much, but he seemed to, I don't know if enjoys the right word, but it might be. He seemed to be totally fine. I think he, I think enjoy. Would you say, I think it's probably not that far off that he enjoyed pleasureville for him. Talking about it, reliving it, going into the, you know, even some of the gory details. So, yeah, next week. episode two is going to be really good.

That's it for episode one on Ed Kemper. Gibbs, we've got some voicemails. Dive in. Dive in. Hey, guys. How you doing? My name's Chris. I live out in Naples, Florida.

I've been listening to you guys now for probably the past eight months or so. I've gotten to podcasts. Someone got me in the podcast probably a year and a half ago. And ever since then, fishing shows and true crime shows are all I listen to you every single day. And your podcast has been one of my favorites. It's awesome to hear you guys talk back and forth. You guys do a great deal of work and detail on, you know, the podcast you put now.

And I enjoy every one of them. I've listened to every one of them that you put out on both Unsolved and the regular T-Cat. And I just wanted to give you guys a call and say thank you for all the work you do. And entertaining me, especially seems how for the most part it's free for me, you know. Hopefully soon here, I'll be able to support your job. you guys a little bit once I get into the Patreon and all that good stuff. Appreciate the time and effort you guys put in. I will have to say I am Team Gibby for sure, but you're both great and keep up the hard work. Thanks. Bye.

That's a great voicemail, Gibbs. I'm just an interesting fishing podcast? No, I think you said watching fishing shows and listening to podcasts. I think is what he said. I like watching some fishing shows. I do too. Yeah. I enjoy fishing. I fish quite a bit. And there was a time. I don't watch as many as I used to, but I used to be hooked into watching, you know, the one where they compete. Yeah. They're actually like on the fishing tournament. Oh, when they all get in their boats and ready to take them off?

Yeah, they go from boat to boat and they show you, you know, the guy catches the real big one. And then at the end, they weigh them. Yeah. It sounds silly. But for a while there, I was really into watching some of those. You're talking about the bass tournaments? Are you talking about the... Yeah, no bass tournaments.

Oh, okay. I just want to make sure you're talking about the... Like Bassmasters or something like that. Yeah. But, you know, I appreciate that voicemail because I really felt like, you know, he was, he's very thankful of what we're putting out. And that makes us feel great. Yeah.

And Team Givby. He's Team Givy. I knew you were going to say that. I love the voicemail right up until that part. Yeah. Hey, Mike and Giffy. This is D from Arkansas. I just want to drop by and say thank you for an awesome podcast.

I have seen a friend raving about it on her Facebook. and I am a crime show junkie, so I was immediately interested, and I love it. The podcast really helped my third shift pass quickly. I've been to listen to TCAT, and I'm working through TCAT and Solve now while I patrol. In fact, no one wants to ride with me anymore because I listen to y'all so much. And I just want to thank y'all for being able to cover these difficult topics and giving the victims of respect that y'all do. I can't choose between Mike and Givney because y'all are both awesome. I love y'all both.

Y'all are great. But also, I realized after I sent y'all a little gift that I had left the note explaining it on my kitchen table. So I wanted to let y'all know about where the phrase toad suck comes from. And long ago, here in Arkansas, when the boats would go up and down the Arkansas River, they had certain stops. And when the water wasn't right, they stopped at the swan spot and they would go and drink in the taverns. And the locals would say that they'd suck on the bottle until they sold up like toads. So that's how the region got the name Toad Sucks. But now it's just kind of a festival.

raised money for scholarship. But anyways, just wanted to say, love y'all. Keep up the good work. Keep your own time taken, y'all. Well, now we know, Dee, the story behind. Because I'm sitting here with my cozy, cozy, coozy. How you say? Coosy.

With my... Toad suck. Yeah, I'm like, Toot suck. Conway, Arkansas. We couldn't figure it out, couldn't we at all? Now we know. Now we know. So, we appreciate that.

Thank you so much. This is Dixie. I just want to leave you a very quick voicemail. because I was listening to the story on Drew Peterson. And, you know, something I heard a long time ago, I guess it was on one of the television shows where they were specializing in this case. Stacey Peterson's mother disappeared years ago, and she's never been found. But I can't find any information on it,

although you can find where she disappeared if you look very closely if you keep looking. But I just think that's an interesting circumstance. And it was way before she met Drew Peterson. I think it was 10 years before she disappeared. But I just thought I'd share that with you because it's not widely talked about. Thank you. Keep your own time ticking. Bye-bye.

All right. Great voicemail from super fan Dixie. We always love to hear from Dixie. Love getting messages from her. So I never saw that, Gibbs. And I don't know if you did. We did a lot of research on the Drew Peterson case. Now, we weren't specifically research.

her mom. I was a state visiting him trying to get information out of him, so I wasn't able to do that. Right. That was a good conversation. You didn't share any of it on the podcast. I don't know why, but...

Yeah, well, saving it up for... But I never saw anything about it. But it's interesting. Obviously, it doesn't probably have anything to Drew Pearson if she disappeared that earlier. Now, if she had disappeared during... During while before, that would be... Intriguing?

Very intriguing. Hi, my name is Heather. I'm calling from Florida. You guys are amazing. I binge listening to all your podcast at this point. You guys were talking on the podcast for Colin Ferguson.

The program that Gibby was talking about was Celebrity Death Match, where they had claymation of all the different celebrities, Tanya Harding, Nancy Kerrigan, Danny Don't Bottodoochee, all those. And it was claymation, but it was.

Celebrity Death Match. You guys keep up the awesome work and I will continue to listen. I love that voicemail. And I think it's very fitting Gibbs for our 100th episode because obviously Colin Ferguson, I don't remember what number it was, but that goes back away. It does. And there was so much mileage out of that Celebrity Death Match and, you know, a lot of people writing in, calling in.

Right. A lot of chatter on the T-Cat Facebook group. group about what it was and just a lot of people had a really good time with it yeah so thanks heather yep we appreciate it hi mike and gibby this is sheila from a small town in missouri and i just wanted to call and let you guys know i love your show your podcast i found it a couple of months ago and i've been binge watching ever since and um that was it well you were saying you were ben watching how you been watching. A binge? Yeah, how you binge watching? You said Ben. I was trying to use my southern Missouri, Mississippi, where was she from? Isn't Missouri like kind of over to the left, to the left?

Not quite as much south. Yeah, anyway. So, you know, obviously it cut off. Yeah, hope she's all right. I hope Sheila's okay. I'm sure she is. If you're not, we'll never know. But if you are, maybe call back and let us know. Yeah. I was surprised you didn't because a lot of people when they cut off, they'll call back and say, hey, I got cut off. But maybe she said everything she really wanted to say, which is, she's, benged us. Benged, I love the show, and we appreciate that. That's perfect. We love to hear from everybody. Said more voicemails. Says the guy that doesn't have to do anything with them. You're killing me smalls. I saw a t-shirt and Target the other day. He's got the guy's face and you're killing me, smalls. All right. That's it for voicemails.

We had one thing in the mail this week, Gibbs. Was it that subpoena again? It was not that subpoena. I don't even give them to you anymore. I just throw them away. Well, I shred them. Is that good or not? I don't know. I don't know.

I just figure you don't need to know about it. And if it's really that important, they'll send another. That's always been my philosophy. When I get pulled over, they're just go ahead and take me. Either way. Yeah. Okay. If I'm doing the podcast by myself one week.

Do we still have that attorney on? Well, no. Yeah. On retainer. Yeah. But that's always been my philosophy. if it's super important, they'll either call again or send another letter. Send another one.

Okay. Well, it's good to know. But we had something different. Okay. Kelly Hurst sent us a Halloween card. Yes, she did. But it wasn't just any Halloween card. No.

It had a big rubber dinosaur on the front. Yes. It got you really excited. It did. Because I couldn't figure out, this is the mystery. I could not figure out whether the car. was purchased with the rubber dinosaur on it, or if the rubber dinosaur was glued on post-purchase. I think post-purchase.

I think so, too, but it's even carrying a little jack-o-lantern Halloween bucket. And the dinosaur is so big like it tinted out the envelope. You know what? I think it came that way. Oh, do you? Because it, why would you else put that extra backing there? Oh, there's two layers on the front. to hold the weight of that because that's a healthy that's that's heavy right that's a that's a good 10 pound

dinosaur and it's not a flat dinosaur i mean it's no it's it's it's got uh it's got some jelly to it it's jelly oh but we appreciate that kelly thanks a lot and it's carrying a pumpkin exactly it's trick or treating all right everyone that is it for another episode of true crime all the time 100. That's it for the 100th episode. So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.