True Crime All The Time - Eric Smith

Episode Date: May 27, 2019

When many people think about kids that kill they may think about Eric Smith, the 13-year-old that killed a 4-year-old boy in 1993. The pictures of Eric Smith sitting in court with his large glass and red hair are seared into some people's memory. Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the details of the lives of both Eric Smith and little 4-year-old Derrick Robie. What were the events that occurred in Eric's life that led up to his decision that day in 1993 to murder young Derrick? The details of this case will anger you. But maybe the most shocking thing of all is the contention by many that have studied Eric Smith that he enjoyed doing what he did.You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise and donation informationSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

everyone and welcome to episode 132 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in True Crime Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you? Man, I'm good, man. Man, I'm good man. I love to hear that. I just know it's going to be a kickass episode. It is. So I had an interesting week. You did? Yeah, it was very busy. So last Saturday, my daughter graduated from high school. Yeah. Yay. Then this past Wednesday, she had surgery to take her tonsils out.

She's excited about that. Yeah, it went actually much better than I thought. You know, pain-wise, I mean, it hurts. But if you remember, my 14-year-old just went through this like two months ago. I remember. And I had always heard, the older you get, the harder it is on you, so far it's not been. as bad as what it was on my youngest. So hopefully, you know, she'll...

Time will tell. Yeah, come through it pretty easily. And then, you know, we've got her graduation party coming up. You and I have CrimeCon. There is just a lot of things in the hopper. It's busy. Yeah, very busy. Busy, busy.

We have some new Patreon supporter shoutouts. Okay. We had Angelina Naba. Naba. April Harper. Hey, April. Amanda Chapman jumped out at our highest level. Man, thanks Amanda.

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Do you want to just do the Roxanne song thing? What? I knew you would. Loris Mathis. Hey, Loris. Emily Duzler. The Dusler. Sammy Quinn.

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Jumped out to our highest level. Erica Chong. Cheech and Jong. Colin A bear. A bear? One of my favorite last names. A bear. Unless he pronounces it, Hebert.

Probably is. Teber? I'm going with A Bear, though. But you like A Bear. I do like the way that sounds. Is that La Franca? La Franca. La Francai. Yeah. Alexander Berry. Hey, Alexandra. And Nico Carlos Duarte. Ooh, Nico Carlos DeRorte. That sounds very suave. Sounds like party for one. Is that a word suave? If you don't have the RICO in front of it? Rico suave. Yeah. I don't know. I don't either. And if we go back into the Vault Gibbs, Gibbs, this week, we

selected Alana Ali Reynolds. Hey, A-A-R. A-A-R. Never thought about that. Long-time supporter, we appreciate that. We appreciate all the new support, the longtime Patreon support. We had some great PayPal support as well. Jennifer Wormuth.

Hey, Jennifer. May, Cecily, Egeland. Eglend. And, you know, I received an email. She was pretty sure that. that there was no possible way I was going to get it right. I'm inclined to agree with her. So.

Yeah. I can see that name is very. Well, it's almost all three names. You could go some variation. So the fact that you got to get them all three right. Probably not. I'd just say,

Hey, Miss Egglin. Come here, please. We had London Gifties. Hey, from London. And Alita Hirsch actually gave us a very sizable donation.

Oh, Alita. Thank you. PayPal. So we appreciate all the support. It means a lot to us. It goes a long way. It does. Towards helping us continue to put out the shows. All right. Gibbs on True Crime all the time unsolved. We have an episode out right now on Sky Metal Walla. We do. Two year old boy. Yeah. That goes missing. I don't want to give too much of it away. I think it's an episode that people are really going to be captivated by. frustrated and frustrated because you know police are looking at this little boy's mother

things just don't seem to line up in in some of the scenarios but again that's it's why it's unsolved but there's some very fascinating pieces of that puzzle exactly we have a brand new patreon episode out that hit last night yeah it's good too it is good it's on Stephen Colver and Tyler Witt. This is a couple that was not supposed to be together. Tyler's mother didn't want them to be together. The state didn't want them to be together legally. But like Romeo and Juliet,

and they kind of fashioned themselves after them, they were going to do whatever they had to do to be together. They thought better. And that included killing Tyler's, mother. Yeah. So it's one of those cases that, you know, maybe not as well known, but the details are fascinating. So for those of you that are already on Patreon, that's in the feed right now. If you're not on Patreon, think about signing up. There is a lot of good extra content. We put something out every week and then a full episode out every month. And we've got a little Q&A session going

on it here pretty soon. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yep, just for Patreon, a Q&A session will probably be out in sometime in June, I think. And I do want to throw out a plug for the latest criminology episode, the one that Mike Morford and I do, came out Saturday last night. We actually had on famed forensic pathologist Cyril Wecht. Yeah. It was, and a number of other people, but he was, you know, he spoke with us for a long time. in relation to this one very specific case.

So for those of you that don't listen to criminology, go out and check this one out. You'll like this episode for sure. All right, Gibbs, are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime All the time? Yeah, let's do it. We are talking about Eric Smith. You know, this is someone who killed at a very young age. This is a case that I've had Mark to do from the very very very, beginning of the podcast because it is a case that has stuck with me for a very long time.

There have been a number of children who have killed. You know, we can think of a bunch of them off the top of our heads. Many of them have become high profile cases over the years. Sure. But to me, and maybe for me, it's Eric Smith that I remember the most as being one of the first that really, you know, jumped into my consciousness. I think that probably rings true with a lot of people. I think it does. I mean, maybe it's the publicity that his actions garnered. Maybe it has something to do with the way that Eric Smith looked. You know, he had that kind of very red hair.

And I remember them showing him on TV wearing thick glasses. and they look like they were just way too big for his face. Right. But he looked so young, right? He was 13 at the time. Maybe it was that fact. Maybe it was the fact that he was so young. But maybe it was the fact that his victim was so young, much younger than Eric was, that that sticks out in my mind.

It's probably a combination of all of that. Maybe like a little opie gone bad. Maybe. Yeah. Maybe. But the truth is that, you know, the. memory of seeing Eric Smith on TV, hearing about how he murdered another child, it's never left me. And we all have those cases, right? Those cases that depending on how old we are,

we heard about, we saw on the news at a certain age, and they stuck with us. For many of us, maybe it became the impetus for our fascination with true crime. I'm not saying that here. the Eric Smith case didn't do that for me, but it is one that I have always remembered. Well, if you ever have a problem with your impetus, you can just take a little blue pill. It probably corrects their impetus. Does it take care of impetus? Maybe. I don't know.

Don't have to worry about that. I was getting ready to say, if anybody would know, it would be you. If you knew what the word impetus meant. Well, yeah, you know. Yeah. I do. I'm just messing with you. So this case takes place in 1993.

We're in the tiny village of Savona, which is in western New York. Back then, Savona had a population of less than a thousand people. It's a small town. That is a very small town. I think I've talked about it before. I went to my daughter's graduation. She had, I don't know, four or five hundred people in her graduating class. Right.

which means her high school has over a thousand people. Oh, sure. So more people in her high school than in the whole, you know, village, I think it is of Savona. So we're talking about a very small place here. I think this is a place where you really could know just about everyone else in town. This is the type of village Gibbs that, you know, they have a small post office. Many people bought their groceries at a general store. You know, there wasn't some big Kroger's or Myers or Walmart or anything like that. There was the Savona Diner. That was the place to go if you wanted a good cheeseburger or their daily special,

which was usually about five bucks. I'm guessing that if you wanted to see a doctor or a veterinarian, it was the same guy. I don't, that I don't know. I did not see that in the research. Let me fix you. Dr. Pepper. I just got done fixing Fluffy. Now let me go ahead and fix your, your issue.

But it was definitely a little small, quaint place to live. This is where little four-year-old Derek Roby lived. His mother, Doreen, and his father, Dale, said that Derek was all boy. Right? You hear that. People say that. That guy's all man. Well, Derek was all boy.

He was into everything. He was inquisitive. he liked to climb anything that he could find. He liked to play. He did what little boys that age do. They also described him as the unofficial mayor of Savona. Because apparently everybody knew Derek. He was a very cute little guy.

People said that they remember Derek just sitting on his bike. Right. He'd be on his bike sitting at the corner of. the street, he would just sit there and wave at everybody, Gibbs, as they drove by in their car. You do that? I do that, but for a different reason. Right. He wanted to be everyone's friend.

That's a type of little kid that we're talking about. He loved animals. He enjoyed playing practical jokes. As you can hear from this clip from Derek's mother. Yeah, he knew that the older ladies would be walking to church. And so he took his rubber snake out and laid it on the sidewalk and then watched out the window as people walked up the sidewalk. So the old rubber snake trick gets them every time. Pretty good for a four year old.

Yeah. Right? To pull that. Now, Derek also had a baby brother named Dalton. So you think about this Roeby family. It's a burgeoning family in a small community. They have a lot of great. memories of ahead of them. You know, Gibbs, as these two boys grow up, they've got essentially a little

postcard type family life going for them, but it's about to be shattered. So that summer, summer of 93, Derek was attending a recreation program at a park. It was held just about a block from his home. Did you ever do that? Did you ever go to like a summer thing where you attended every day for a certain period of time? Well, I was signed up for summer school. I was supposed to show up every day for a certain period of time, which I failed to do. But that was mandatory. I'm talking about something that was kind of an elective.

Your parents signed you up for you to meet people and get out of the house. I never did that. I did go to football camp. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But... You wear tights underneath your uniform? Stay away from my tights, man.

But I think this was pretty common. You know, a lot of places have type of kind of a summer thing. It may last a couple weeks. It may last longer. But you pay X amount and show up every day. They have activities and, you know, things like that. That's what Derek's going to. On August 2nd, 1993, Derek was about to head out to the program that day.

And his mom, Doreen normally took him. but on this day she was struggling to get out the door on time. The baby Dalton was being fussy and we've all been there. I'm there today still with an 18 year old and a 14 year old. We can say that we're going to leave at X time, but it never fails. Either somebody's not done with their makeup. They can't find the right blouse to go with this. The furry suit's not zipping up, right.

The furry suit won't zip up. There are a million reasons not to be able to get out of the house on time. For us, the Ferguson family, it seems to happen on a routine basis. Tries you crazy, doesn't it? It does. Because I'm usually the one sitting in the chair with my keys ready to go. Yeah. But I live with three women who admittedly it takes them a lot,

longer to get ready than I do. They also look much better than I do when they're done. Well, can't deny that. But I know, but it takes you while. I mean, you got to do your hair. You know, if you just get it done a little faster. Sometimes I'll get one out of place. You know.

I'll get a straggler that I got to rain back in. Got to work on it a little bit. But I think most people can relate, right? There's always something that comes up that makes it very difficult for everyone to be on the same page at the same time. So what Derek told his mom was that he could walk. It's not very far. It's a block away. I'll just walk. And I think this part for sure Gibbs is haunting to Doreen. It's chilling to hear her talk about it. She has said this was the first time she had ever let Derek go anywhere alone. And I believe that. He's only four years old. But again, I mentioned it. The park where

this was being held was only a block away. It was also at the end of their dead end street. So Derek didn't have to cross any streets. It was a very straight shot, simple one block walk. A to B. Just follow the straight line. So she agreed to let Derek do this. He really wanted to walk. Doreen kissed Derek goodbye and she watched him as he walked down the sidewalk wearing his white Tasmanian devil t-shirt. No way. No way that Doreen could have ever imagined that within five minutes of kissing him goodbye, her son Derek would be dead, killed by another kid attending this recreation program, that 13-year-old was Eric Smith. Eric Smith was born in Savona in 1980.

He's the middle child of Ted and Tammy Smith. You and I have talked a lot about the order, the birth order of children. Right. Middle children versus, you know, firstborn, last born. I actually got a very interesting email on it today. Really? But Eric was a middle child, just like you. you. Yeah. Again, there's always something that you have in common with people that we profile.

So yeah, roll. Now, his mother took some anti-seizure epilepsy medication while she was pregnant with Eric. And there are some people, professionals, that believe this medication contributed to Eric's physical appearance. It didn't cause him to be homicidal, but contributed to. And, you know, it didn't cause him to be homicidal, but contributed to his appearance, which as we get into this, we'll find out that that was a big issue for him, right? For one thing, Eric's ears hung very low on his head. And they stuck out quite a bit, very noticeable. And I mentioned it. He had fiery red hair. He had freckles. And he had a speech impediment. On top of all that, Eric had extremely poor eyesight. he was forced to wear thick glasses from an early age.

As a toddler, Eric, threw a lot of temper tantrums. Just like you Gibbs, I talked to your mom a couple weeks ago and she said that you were the king of temper tantrum. She'd take you to Kmart back in the 70s and you just lay in the aisle and flail around. Yeah.

I don't think she said that, but you just say, see you later. To you? If we did that, She'd be like, hey, I'm going home. You guys find your own way home because I'm not dealing with this. Right. Hey, we loved you used to go to Kmart back in that day because you used to get slurpees there.

Yeah, that is true. Kmart had like a little concession stand. Yeah. And they had to. You be good. And I'll get you a slurpy when we're done. I know. That was a big deal.

Now it's Target's got a full-blown Starbucks in it. And we go to Target. And both my kids won a $17. dollar grande maki something something along with a new video game yeah it's uh it's a pricey endeavor i just don't even want to leave the house yeah that's that's where i'm at this no wonder you're the king of amazon well that's the problem though now my wife has discovered how easy amazon is oh it packages just it's like raining packages yeah uPS guys uh here every day yeah but eric did right he threw a lot of temper tantrums he would flage

around on the floor, cry. But the big thing that the research talked about is that, you know, during these temper tantrums, apparently he would just repeatedly bang his head on the floor. Now, depending on how severe that head banging is, you could get some head trauma from that, no doubt. I mean, you're like giving yourself many concussions. Yeah. You know, in every tantrum.

as Eric Smith entered school, all of these physical characteristics that we talked about, they became the fodder for bullies. And it's these damn bullies, Gibbs. We keep talking about them in a lot of episodes. They look for anything, right? That they perceive as different, that they think is outside the norm. And they pounce on it. This is what happened to Eric.

He was teased. He was tormented. He was attacked at school. And apparently it didn't matter what Eric did or said he was bullied. He couldn't get away from it. That's what his mom and adopted dad said. His mom later said that it was routine for Eric to be crying when he got off the school bus. That should not.

be your routine. No, not at all. If it is, something bad is happening. He had to endure a bus ride essentially every day of being teased and having things thrown at him. It's not a good situation. You should be getting off the bus thinking, what girl, I'm not going to kiss? Or what snacks are in the pantry.

That's what I was thinking. Yeah, yeah, yeah, get home. Give me some good, uh, get me a three musketeers bar. A pudding cup. And an orange crush. Oh, that was my jam. Yeah. I knew you like the Orange Crush thing, Marky Mark.

But it's not a good situation, right? Everything that we're talking about, Eric was held back in school one year. Pretty tough. Yeah, it was. I mean, yeah, it is. Pretty tough, I would imagine, and you could probably speak to it from experience, but tough to excel at school when you're being relentlessly tortured, teased, and bullied. I would imagine so.

That wasn't the problem you hadn't. school. I know that. No. You had other issues, but it wasn't that. Eric later said that he equated going to school with going to hell. Those are the words that he used because that is what it felt like to him. And we may talk about this later, but I think one of the key things to me to keep in mind was Eric's mother admitting, right, that she knew about this. She basically said it. that it was not unusual for Eric to come home crying on the school bus. Okay, then what'd you do about it? Right.

Those are the kind of questions that are going to come around. How can you say that you knew about all this stuff and then not have answers for what you did to try to correct the problem? Then we talk about Eric's adoptive father. And I think he made matters worse with. with his behavior towards Eric as Eric was growing up, his adoptive father later admitted on the witness stand at Eric's trial that he was very rough on Eric.

Well, for quite a few years, I had a little hot temper myself, so it's hard to say there's a lot of things I said, kicked their butt up over their shoulders, sick and tired of the craft, second tire to you, a swat him upside to head. And he was really upset,

and he was crunching his fist and shaking. and he said, Dad, I need help. He said, yes, I do. I want to hurt something like that. And I said, hold it. When I got angry, when I was your age, I grabbed the bag in our barn, and I just start beating on it until I was too tired to do anything else.

I heard our door shut, and I turned around, he was gone. And as I got to the window, he was coming back in the door. And he was calm. And I looked down, and I noticed his knuckles, and his hands were kind of skinned up and bloodied. And I asked him what happened, and he said, I'd hit the tree a couple of times seemed to be okay. So you can hear it there, right?

Eric asked for help. And what did he get? Go out and punch something. That will help you get your frustrations out. Gibbs, this was a boy who was struggling with some very serious mental issues. And he very badly needed professional help. I don't think there's any doubt about that. he needed some type of professional help.

His mother and his father knew he was struggling, knew he was getting bullied, but it just didn't seem like they did a whole lot to help him. I don't want to put this all on them, right, in any way, as a lot of us know. Right. It's extremely tough being a parent. Sometimes for me, the toughest part is knowing when to jump in, knowing what, What's a real issue and what is minor but being portrayed as a bigger issue, if that makes sense? Sure.

Yeah. Well, then you're always trying to figure out, just want to see if they can work this out. Yeah. You know. But I don't know. It seemed to me that this was not minor. No, this is one, like you said, they really should have seek some professional assistance. Eric's mother later testified at his trial that her advice to,

to Eric was that he needed to learn to stick up for himself. Well, that's great if you're 6 to 240 or if you've been training and you're now a brown belt in taekwondo or something like that. But if you're a regular kid that is small in stature, you've got low self-esteem, you've been picked on for years, I think it's tough to just say, you know what, stand up for yourself, especially when the bullies are bigger than you. Yeah. First you got to build that person up before they can stand up. Yeah.

So again, I'm not trying to put them down, but I think it's pretty obvious that, and it's Monday morning quarterbacking, but I do think it's pretty obvious that there are some things that they could have done differently with Eric to get him some help. Now, would it have changed the outcome of what happened? We don't know.

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That's B-O-L and branch.com promo code T-Cat. BowlingBranch.com promo code T-Cat. In his later years, Eric was diagnosed with intermittent explosive disorder, which essentially boils down to uncontrollable rage. Kind of like somebody having road rage? Kind of. Somebody that's in this room? I don't know if mine is uncontrollable.

I can control it. I choose not to, which I think is a very distinct difference. Sure. Eric later said that after years of verbal abuse at school and at home, being told he was worthless, being made to feel like he was worthless, he just shut down. And he said he shut down his feelings so he wouldn't feel the emotional pain, which made him vulnerable and weak. But as Eric puts it, you know, these are Eric.

own words later on after this takes place, the damage was already done. By this point in his life, he felt worthless, like he was a nothing. And his outlook on life was very bleak. It was very dark. He began to take his frustrations out on neighborhood animals. And you and I know, and everybody listening knows. This is where a lot of killers start. Yes.

He shot dogs with his BB gun. He hurt cats, strangled them. He would drown birds that he managed to catch. So that's pretty bad, man. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He's a very frustrated kid because, and this is a lay person trying to figure this out, but he has

no control in his life is what I'm thinking. He goes to school. Everything is happening to him. negative, he can't control it. He's being told he's worthless at home. There's nothing he can do about it. What's the one thing he can control? A smaller animal and what happens to that animal? And that's what he's doing. He's taking out his frustrations by hurting and killing smaller animals. He's the one in control. So you have this portrait of a bullied young kid who was a loner. And that's what you see in a lot of the articles and things like that. But there are some varying accounts on this in early

newspaper articles. Some people came out and said that they thought he was pretty upbeat at school. He told jokes. He played pranks. He was on the wrestling team. He played the trombone in the school band. Just like you. Just like I did. I did not. I played the trumpet. I knew I played something. He loved Garth Brooks. Just like you. Just like me. And he had aspirations of playing in a country music band. Can I say just like you? Just like me. So for me, this was very hard to reconcile because depending on what you read, there are varying accounts of exactly who Eric Smith was. And they're pretty extreme, right? And how much they vary. Some people described him as friendly. And maybe he was all of this, right?

Maybe he did these things at school, but he was still bullied. And deep down, he was a loner. That part, I think, is fairly true. He did not have many friends. But I think there's one thing that's true no matter what. Deep down, Eric Smith was an extremely troubled kid. I just don't think there's any doubt about that. Eric Smith was 13 years old.

in 1993. And as we mentioned earlier, he was attending the same recreation program as Derek Roby. So Eric happened to be riding his bike to the park at the same time that Derek Roby was walking. It wasn't very far from Derek's house that the pair encountered each other. Eric Smith lured Derek into a patch of woods. This is about halfway. Gibbs or so between Derek's home and the park. So all of this happened within a very short period of time. But once they were secluded, Eric began strangling Derek Roby. He then found a couple of rocks and he began beating the little boy.

One of these rocks that he brought down on this four-year-old boy, Gibbs was said to have been 26 pounds. Wow. That's a sizable rock. Yeah. To bring down on another human being. All right. Let alone a four-year-old. Right.

That's just really disturbing. Really disturbing. It's disturbing when you think about how much force that someone could generate with a 26-pound rock. Yeah. I mean, gravity alone, even if you just let it go, but if you're helping to bring. bring it down. Right. Can't imagine. It's almost sickening to think about what that would do to a four-year-old boy. And I'm guessing he had to kind of look for that. I don't think wherever the boy fell and he strangled on that 26-pound rock was just right there. No, I think you're right. I think he went looking for

and maybe even had to dig a little bit. Yeah. Maybe they were sticking out. I think I read somewhere where he had to dig these rocks out. And all of these facts are important, right? Even the ones we're riffing about because, you know, later on it will come down to intent. You know, what did he intend to do? Why did he do it? Was he in his right mind? All of those things.

And I think all of the little facts that make it up, they're important as they relate to, you know, those things. Eric then found a stick and he sodomized this young boy with it. Very brutal, right, regardless of the age of the victim. But when you factor that in that it's a four-year-old, it's almost unbearable. Yeah, it just makes you wonder why. What was he thinking? Well, and I will say this.

Later on, Eric Smith gives a reason for the stick. And it's such a strange reason that it really stuck with me. He said he thought that by inserting this stick, he would reach the heart and stop it. So obviously this is a 13 year old not knowing much about how the human body works and anatomy. Or he's just completely lying and did that for another reason. Exactly. But that was the reason that he gave later on. But Eric Smith was not done.

He went through the lunch sack that Derek's mom had packed for him that day. Eric smashed up a banana. And then he took some Kool-Aid that he found in the sack. And he poured it into Derek's wound that had been caused by these heavy rocks. That's sadistic. Truly is. You've heard the expression pouring salt in. to someone's wounds, it's almost as if he is playing around.

And I say that because Eric is going to leave Derek's body, you know, after he does these things, but he's going to return several times that day to the body. And people have said it's almost as if he was playing around. He moved the body. He took Derek's left shoe off. and put it by his right hand. He took his right shoe off and put it by his left hand. Authorities thought that, you know,

he posed the body in, in different ways until he finally settled on, on one. And they're going to study this, right? Professionals will study this and ultimately come to the conclusion that Eric returned to the body because he didn't want this experience to end. He enjoyed what he had done. and he wanted it to continue.

So he was seeking continuing enjoyment of this terrible, terrible thing. It's sick to think of it that way, but that's what they believe, right, that Eric Smith enjoyed killing Derek Roby so much that he didn't want the experience of that day, the rush, the feeling, the whatever he got. he didn't want it to end, which is why he kept coming back to the body, why he was playing around with it, manipulating it. It's just a weird thing to be ecstatic about. Well, it's weird for any of us. Yeah, when you're talking normalcy. Yeah, there's no doubt.

Right. But this is different than a cat. It's different than a bird. This is a human. And I think that's the point. That's the perfect point to make, I believe Gibbs. is we mentioned it. He's frustrated. No control. Where does he gain the control? It's by taking it out on smaller animals. Now it's as if he has graduated. This is a very small boy. Right. Derek Roby,

only four years old. He was very small compared to 13 year old Eric who he was not, you know, a giant, but I think he was five eight, one 20. I mean, he was, you know, pretty good. for a 13 year old kid, it's to me almost as if he's doing the same thing, but he has graduated to a human being. It's sick. Certainly is. Derek's body was found later that day. And the investigation into his death began immediately. Small town, four-year-old boy found dead the way that Derek was.

That's going to grab everybody's attention, right? Investigators interviewed. hundreds and hundreds of people. They reviewed a lot of different scenarios, trying to figure out who could have killed this precious little boy, Derek Roby. They even interviewed Eric Smith. And investigators later said that it seemed to them as if Eric enjoyed their conversation, almost as if he was reveling in it.

Right. This conversation is a connection to the crime that he committed. But at this point, authorities had no idea, right? That Eric was involved in the murder or be capable of something so horrendous. Yeah. I mean, I think if you sit down, you're talking to a 13 year old, your first thought is probably not, this is suspect number one, right? This is number one on the suspect list. Right. This is a 13-year-old kid. You're looking for information. Especially back then. But that would change because over time, investigators would start to look at Eric and think, something's not right here. During one conversation, Eric told investigators that he had seen Derek that morning at 915, near the place where Derek's body was eventually found.

When the autopsy was completed, The medical examiner put Derek's time of death at 920. Well, that doesn't look good. Not good at all. If you're Eric and you say, I saw him at 915, within the next five minutes, he's dead. They talked with Eric a number of times. And it was like the more they talked to him, the more the holes started to appear in his story. Now, remember, he's only 13 years old.

This is not a criminal mastermind. He's not going to outwit the detectives. No. I mean, 13-year-olds can't keep legitimate stories straight, let alone stories that are designed to cover up the fact that you've murdered someone. Eric was able to describe what Derek was wearing to a tea and even describe the lunch bag. And at one point in the interview, Eric got angry when investigators pointed out some inconsistencies in his story. he got so mad Gibbs that he bawled his hands into fists. He started shaking and he said, you think I killed him, don't you?

My suspicion level would rise, I think at that point. At another point in an interview, Eric was brought in some Kool-Aid. When he saw it, he picked it up and he threw it on the ground. Well, investigators knew they were on to something. right, they knew that the murderer had poured Kool-Aid into the wounds of the victim. Derek. The problem is Eric would not come out and admit that he killed Derek. So they're, they're on to him.

They're working him, but they can't, you know, get him to admit anything. Five days after he was killed, Derek's family had his funeral. he was buried in his baseball uniform. Oh man, it's rough. It is rough. It's rough to think about. He loved baseball.

You know, I mentioned he was four years old. He was getting ready to turn five, but he was a little guy. You know, he, you can, you can imagine him running the bases

and out there playing baseball, smiling from ear to ear. It's heartbreaking. But by this point, Eric's family, was starting to believe that he knew more than he was telling. For one thing, just like the authorities, they were finding a bunch of inconsistencies in his stories. They sat him down and they begged him to tell them what he knew.

And seven days after he killed Derek Roby, Eric finally did. And you know, Gibbs, there is no way that the family was prepared for the details that came out of Eric's mouth. Absolutely no way. I mean, number one, to find out that, yeah, you were involved, but then to hear the details, because they were gruesome. We talked about them. Eric's mother, Tammy, asked him why he did it, and he said, I don't know.

I don't know. And he began crying. The family took him to the district attorney's office. And Eric finally confessed to authorities during questioning there. He was charged with second degree murder, which at the time in New York was the only capital crime under which a 13-year-old could be charged as an adult, second degree. The state police later said that 40 investigators worked this case, put in more than 3,000 hours on it.

But the one that blew me away was that it said they interviewed almost every person in Savona. I mentioned there wasn't even quite a thousand. people. Right. They talked to almost every resident. Once the news broke that, it was Eric Smith that killed Derek. I think it was pretty chaotic, right? People in Savona couldn't believe it. Frankly, the entire country and world couldn't believe it. I say national news, man. You've seen that and people were just in awe. So you have a 13 year old murdering a four year old. That became national news. and Eric Smith's picture was plastered on every news station, on every newspaper. I think that's why it sticks in so many people's minds.

You can you can just picture him. Oh, absolutely. And if the name doesn't register, the minute you see his picture that, like, we'll put up on the TCAT Facebook group page, you'll recognize it immediately. It'll flood right back in. Eric went to trial in August 1994. And the burning question in everyone's mind was why, right? Why would this 13 year old boy choose to viciously beat and strangle an innocent four-year-old boy? They hadn't gotten into an argument.

Derek hadn't provoked Eric in any way. In fact, I don't believe they really had much interaction at all before Eric chose to lure Derek. Eric into that wooded area and kill him. But again, I go back to it, Gibbs. I don't think it was about Derek at all for Eric. I think it was about finding someone smaller, weaker, and taking his frustrations out on that person because he could, right? If he could have beaten up his bullies, he probably would have done that.

Sure. But he couldn't. No, so he went for the smaller, weaker. Right. Like he did with the animals that he knew he could do something with. Yeah, I agree with you. I don't think it had anything to do with who the victim was. I agree.

I don't think it had anything to do with Derek personally. He was looking for somebody that he could easily overpower. Easy target. And hurt. The prosecution entered 71 pieces of evidence into the trial. including Eric's school records, videotape of him reenacting for police, what happened the day of the crime, and a ton of medical reports. Because by the time the trial rolled around, there had been a number of physical, psychological, and psychiatric examinations performed on Eric Smith. I would think so.

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. You have a lot of people that want to get inside of, of Eric's mind, try to figure out why in the world he did this. What made him do this? But no doubt, the prosecution had the upper hand here, right? They had Eric Smith's confession. I think what they were really bracing for and they were in getting ready for the most was the defense arguing that Eric's mental state at the time of the murder made him not responsible for Derek's death.

I don't think it ever was a question of whether Eric did it or not, right? Everybody knew he did it. It's going to come down to what can the defense do for this 13-year-old boy in minimizing his sentence. And they're going to do that by bringing up his past, claiming that he was insane and therefore not responsible. Right. Eric's defense attorney suggested.

that Eric suffered from a mental illness. And like I mentioned, they used the insanity defense. They introduced evidence of how Eric was mentally abused at home, teased repeatedly at school. They contended that Eric Smith was insane when he strangled Derek and crushed him with the 26-pound rock and then sodomized him with the stick. He had to be something. That's extreme. It's very extreme. But you say he had to be something. Do you mean he had to be something in the area of his mental capabilities? Or do you, because I could argue that he had to be something. And one of those things was he was a very frustrated young man. Yeah, I mean, I get that. Or a kid. He wasn't even a young man. He was a kid. He was frustrated. But it has to be something greater. that to do those things, to be able to strangle your victim and then be like, now I'm going to pick up a 26-pound rock and crush them.

Oh, wait, I'm not done yet. Let me take a stick and then do that too. Well, okay. There's definitely something. Yes. I think the question is, what is that something? Does it have to do with a diminished mental capacity as his defense team is going to argue? Or does it have to do with the fact that he was super angry because of all the things that had happened to him and he was taking it out on someone else? I think could be a combination. Or a combination of both. But you have to get to the point of whether or not he's responsible for his actions.

right that's that's really what this trial came down to it wasn't a did he or did he not do it it's a he did it but because of all these things was he responsible for his actions yeah eric smith suffers from a very serious mental disease to pick this up and throw this down on a little boy's head does that suggest calm deliberate action a plan So that's Eric's defense team and in a clip. I think he's echoing some of the things that you just said, right? The actions of Eric Smith don't on the surface seem like somebody who is operating under their full mental capacity. Both sides presented their evidence.

They called their witnesses. The trial lasted about 15 days. The prosecution countered the insanity defense by saying that, Eric Smith knew exactly what he was doing that day when he killed Derek Roby. He lured the boy into the woods where he wouldn't be seen. He went back to the body multiple times and he reveled in the death and destruction that he caused. He received enjoyment from his initial talks with police. When you take all of this into account, they argued,

Eric Smith should be held responsible for his actions that day. I just think he knew what he was doing when he decided to pick the rock up, sodomize the kid, and then continue to go back. Yeah, and one of the things I didn't even talk about was, you know, Eric Smith went on with the rest of his day. It wasn't like he went home and curled up into a ball in his closet. Right. He went to the recreation program at the park.

He did all the activities. He went and ate lunch. Yeah, he ate lunch. He went home, interacted with his family. He was not broken up about what he had done. But I think this is why it's a very tough case, right? You have a 13-year-old boy. He obviously was under duress.

He was having issues. I think you could make the argument that he had some mental issues as well. but do those mean that he was not responsible for his actions that day? I don't think that's what it means. I agree. You don't think that's what it means. And the jury didn't think that's what, you know, it meant as well. I don't know.

I think this is a tough case because I do believe that Eric Smith should have received help, you know, early on in life, well before he ever committed this. crime and then you look at his family life. It didn't appear to be that great. No, me and his stepfather wasn't the best role model because his stepfather put him down. And then his stepfather's encouraging words to how to deal with your frustration was to go outside and punch something. Yeah. So that's where I go back to he didn't receive help. His mom told him to stand up to the bullies. His dad told him to punch something. Yeah. that's the help he received. That's not enough, right?

That's not helping him really much. That's not given all. But on the flip side of that, there are a lot of people that go through, you know, the type of bullying that Eric Smith went through. They don't choose to handle it by killing a four-year-old. And I think you have to look at that.

You can't take that and say, well, he went through that. So it's okay that he, that he killed a four-year-old boy. I just, I can't get to that place in my mind. Yeah. At all. I agree.

Or that it, not okay, but that it excuses his actions. I can't, I just can't get there. Neither can I. At one point in the trial, Eric's clothing became this huge topic of media discussion. He started wearing these cartoon t-shirts in the courtroom. And one day he wore one with the Tasmanian devil. on it. People were outraged as that had been what Derek was wearing the day that Eric murdered him, even stranger. Everyone came out and said in Savona that they had never once seen Eric Smith wear

any type of cartoon t-shirt before. So what brought this on? Right. Was it the defense trying to make him look more childlike? That's kind of what I went through my head. So he's just a kid. So he's wearing a little kid t-shirt, just trying to make him look younger and the perception. Yeah, trying to drive home probably to the jury that this is a kid. Please don't forget that. Yeah. But I think most people felt that it was in very poor taste. Not the cartoon t-shirts, the fact that he would specifically wear the Tasmanian devil one.

Yeah, I'm surprised that his defense didn't catch that. Or maybe they did. Yeah, I don't know. I couldn't find anything really from them about it. But the jury deliberated for about eight hours before convicting Eric Smith of second degree murder. He was sentenced to the maximum sentence under law nine years to life. He gives what in the world goes through your head as a 13 year old kid when you hear that

you're going away possibly for the rest of your life. And do you think there's even a full comprehension of that by someone that young when the sentence is read in court? Because it was said that he had no emotion whatsoever. Yeah, I don't know if he can understand what that really meant. You know, I think, you know, it's a long time, but I don't understand. I don't think he understood how long and what that really meant, you know, day in and day out with his life. Yeah, I wasn't sure if it was no reaction because there was no comprehension or no reaction because that's just how he was and he didn't, he didn't care at that point. Smith was initially sent to a juvenile facility, but when he turned 21, he was sent to the state prison in Dan Amora because of his sentence.

He's eligible for parole every two years. and he first came up in 2002. So Eric Smith's been denied like nine times, right, for parole. Here's a little bit from an interview he did in prison where he stated he's not the monster everyone thinks he is and he talks about what he would do if he got out. The New York State Board of Corrections and Community Supervision told Smith, your release would be incompatible with the welfare and safety of society. Smith is currently in the Collins Correctional Facility where he is serving a term of nine years to life.

As a 29-year-old adult, he told the media he spent his years behind bars preparing for the possibility of freedom. To go out in society and help the individuals that were like me that were picked on and bullied and that are going through school, dealing with emotional issues. Smith says he was bullied as a kid. His bottled up anger erupted violently when Smith lured Derek into a wooded area, next to the summer camp, the two were attending, and brutally beat the little boy to death. You can label me a monster, a cold-blooded killer, a demon-child, Satan, and Karni. I don't care what the name you give me. Doesn't mean that that's where I am.

So he's not Satan. He's throwing that out there. He's letting you know. Well, and I didn't talk about it. Obviously, this was years later, that interview. But when the original crime happened, it was 93. One of the very first things they thought was that it was related to some type of satanic activity. Sure.

That's what was big. It was that time frame. The other thing that I found while I was researching this case Gibbs was so his trial was in 94. All the articles that start to pull up right next to them somewhere is an article about OJ. Really? As they're getting, they're talking about jury selection in the OJ trial. It was like OJ OJ right next to Eric Smith. So at a recent parole hearing, Eric told the parole board about the abuse he suffered from family and his classmates.

And like they said in that clip, he told him he took his frustration out on Derek Roby. He told the board, he didn't deserve anything that I did to him. no one deserved that kind of violence. What I did to him was brutal. So I do think unlike a lot of people, Eric Smith obviously has admitted what he did. He appears to be sorry for what he did. At least that's what he's portraying.

I have a feeling, Gibbs, that he's going to get out at some point. I think so. He was only 13 years old when he went in. And he got a nine years to life sentence, he's going to get out and he's going to reenter society. It may not be that long. He will be working next to somebody at someplace. All right.

All right, Nostradamus. That's a prediction. He will be working next to somebody at some place. That's how good it is, man. But I don't want to lose sight of Derek and his family, right? obviously Derek Robey lost his life. It was only four years old. But your heart goes out to his family as well for what they've had to endure.

You know, initially you have the heartbreak of losing a child. But now, years later, every time Eric comes up for parole. And like we mentioned, it's every two years, that would be like this huge wound being reopened for them. every couple of years. I think that would be rough. To have to relive, relive, relive. And you would have to. You know, they want to keep the person

that murdered their son in prison. And I do think one of the worst parts about it is that it happens every two years. And they have to prepare for it. They have to brace for it. I mean, if I didn't do that, if I didn't fight every two years, and he was released.

and then he did something to somebody else. I could never forgive myself. So that's Derek's mom talking about why she is fighting to keep Eric in prison. The other thing I will say is that the prosecutor, the guy that prosecuted Eric Smith years ago, has come out and said repeatedly, he thinks Eric Smith is evil. He really does. He does not think that he should see the light of death. day, he believes that if he was set free, he would ultimately murder again. He just thinks that's

the type of person that Eric Smith is. That's his roadmap. And he's been pretty vocal about that. Yeah. Um, he thought that back in 93, 94. And I think he still thinks it today. He's very concerned that the parole board is going to let this guy out and someone else is going to lose their life. That's sad to say. It is. Yeah, it is. The other person that I really feel for is Derek's brother, Dalton. Dalton was a baby.

He never really got to know his brother Derek at all. And I want to play a clip from Dalton. Obviously, he's older now. But he asked the question that you and I ask a lot. He enjoyed life. He lived there as a close he could. It shows we all need to do that. Where would he be, you know, with me?

What would we be doing? You know, the nights that I could be sitting on the porch talking about my day, you know, it's just, I lost my best friend. It feels good knowing, you know, he's always there. And I think he's still, he's still, he's always there. So the question that he asked that you and I talk about a lot is, what would he be doing today? Yeah. And that's the problem with all of these. You just don't know.

Don't know what the future held for him. He could have been a professional baseball player. He loved baseball. Could have been a co-host of a podcast. He could have been some fancy scientists that discovered something, a new star, a vaccine. Hair loss replacement. We just don't know. But when you hear Dalton talk, I think it's a little different for me.

he never got to know Derek. It wasn't like he knew Derek and lost him. For him, it's the, I missed out on everything. I never got to really experience my brother. Never got to play catch. Because I was just a baby when he died. It's a different type of loss. Yeah.

Like you say, you never got, you know, that should have been his best friend. It should have been. He said, yeah, he said that. At the site where Derek was killed, they erected a statue of him and memory, it shows little Derek in his baseball uniform and on the statue is inscribed dedicated to be a gentle reminder of what childhood is meant to be. And I thought that was pretty powerful, right? What is childhood meant to be? Part of it, I think, is somewhat carefree. Oh, for sure. You know, when you're 30, 40 years old, okay, worry about.

the mortgage and two car payments and how you're going to put your kids through college and all of these things. When you're a four-year-old kid, I'm just wondering when my next baseball game is. Yeah. When am I going to get some ice cream? And who's got the popsicles? Who's got the orange slices at the halftime of the soccer game? That's right. Where's my Caprice son? You don't have to worry about anything else. You shouldn't have to is what I should say. You don't expect to have to worry about the things that that Derek had to, had to worry about.

The last thing he should have to worry about was somebody dragging him into the woods. And not just somebody. Another kid, right? And I think that's what makes this story different from others is, yeah, he was older, but he was a kid. This is kid on kid murder. And people just cannot wrap their heads around that, even more so than they can wrap their heads around the other stories that we talk about. As we're wrapping up, I did find a pretty interesting editorial in one of the papers that talked about the line between reporting and sensationalism when it came to these big murder cases.

So this was back in 1994, and I think Gibbs, it's safe to say it's gotten worse, right? Since then, the amount of sensationalism that we see in the media. But in this article, they talked about how people were appalled by the details of this case, but at the same time, they wanted to know each and every one of them. So you had the community crying out, well, you're just trying to sell newspapers. But I think one woman in Savona after Eric's trial said, we all complain about the media, but then we all run for the newspaper. And we tune into the nightly television shows to see what they have to say. I think people say they don't want to know, but they got to know. Yeah, to that point, I think deep down, they want to think that they don't need to, but that desire is there. Yeah. And I, the, the

reason why it's interesting is because we kind of hear it all the time, right? Nobody likes the cases that we're covering, the actual details. Nobody likes them. Right. But we need the details. They're horrific. But without them, how are we supposed to try to understand what these people do and why they do it? Sure. And how are we supposed to use that knowledge for the future? future, right? Oh, I agree. Keeping our head on a swivel and knowing what to look out for. And I mean, it's kind of in the details.

If you don't have the details, then it's more of a glossed over fairy tale type approach to it. I don't think it works. And that's not where our fascination lies. Whether people admit it or not, the fascination is in the details of what these people do and why they do it. What makes them tick? Exactly. But that's it. That is the case of Eric Smith. Like I said, I knew from the beginning I wanted to cover this case because like if you were to say to me child killer, the first thing that would pop into my head is a picture of Eric Smith. It's just it's what I associate. It's the face that I associate with child killers. Just like if you were to say school shooting, regardless. Regardless of how many have happened in the last year or two years, what pops into my head is Columbine.

Yeah. That's what I think of. Yep. And maybe it's age. You know, if you're younger, then maybe it's Newtown or it's something else. But, you know, I think for our age, Columbine was kind of the first of the highly publicized school shootings. Absolutely. It was.

But that's for a different episode that I've been working on. Yeah. All right, we've got some voicemails. You ready for that? Sure am. Hey, what's up, guys? This is Chris out of Denver, Colorado. Long-time listener, man.

I've been around for listening to you guys a long time. I mean, this one's a terrible line. I much, I appreciate what you do. Give you can relate, man. I was working on a second job at DPS from last September through this last January. So during peak season, man, I'd be going in there, doing the overnight shift, load of trucks, and then, you know, getting off at 7 a.m.

I don't have to take a shower and then get to my other job. And it was being brutal, but I can't tell you how to tell you guys. I can't tell you guys how to tell you guys. I think I've been each episode at least three times. So, you know, I could probably rattle off the name of cereal toys and facts. So I'm just going to tell you guys how much I appreciate it. You know, I'm always looking forward to Sunday when the next episode comes out. And I'm really excited for the next big time of you guys are going to do it.

I've got to put Gacy out there where episode 130. I am waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting. for John Wings to come across the desk with Mike Gibby and Mike Ferguson. So take care, guys. Keep doing what you're doing. We love you. We appreciate you. Good yes.

Well, I love me some Denver. And busy guy. Yeah. You got to respect him, right? Yeah. He's working hard, working multiples. So he mentioned a couple. Gacy is definitely one that we're going to do soon.

I would say definitely this year. Yep. I don't know if it will be our next big. timeer because I got one plan that I think most people think is a big timer here in the next couple of weeks but Gacy's on the list. I see that clown folder over there. I know. You keep referencing it. Yeah. Hi guys. This is Kendra. I'm from Southwest Missouri. I just wanted to call in and tell you guys I love listening to you. I've always been kind of obsessed with more McCaub. I actually did a report in middle school on Ed Dean. It really threw everybody off. I really love your back and

forth. I like how Mike tells the story and then Gibby. I, you know, in the beginning, it was kind of hard to listen to. I had to take a break every once in a while, but once you guys got really comfortable and started joking more, really lighten things up, I've listened to you every day on the way to work, during work, on the way home to work. I'm still a few episodes behind, but I just wanted to calling to tell you guys that you're doing a great job. I really love your podcast. Stay safe and keep your own time ticking. I've come up to the top of the class here and give your report on your subject matter. Hi teacher. I'm in the seventh grade. This is Ed Gein. So Ed Gein. Yeah. Is the one that I've been working on. So maybe she can help you out with some research that she's

already did it all back when she was in middle school. Maybe I just take her middle school paper and that would be the basis for the episode. Now, I think Ed Gein, I'm thinking it will probably be a two-parter. You know, I consider Ed kind of a big timer. Even though he's not number-wise, he's nowhere near like the Gacy's and the Dombers. When you think about a guy that was the inspiration for some pretty big movies, you know, psycho, silence of the lamb, some people think he was the inspiration for, what is it, Texas, Chainsaw Massacre. He's pretty big in the history of true crime.

Oh, absolutely. Okay, I have to say I'm grabbing home from work tonight, 11 o'clock, listening to your Patreon. It's kind of my thing on Saturday nights when I have to work. And I'm in tears laughing so hard at you guys about the Avengers and then Games of Throne. But what crack meant most was the Captain America, Captain Marvel back and forth saying, I decided you two must have broken into the Capitol. Captain Morgan.

Ahoy, ladies. You know, sadly, we had not broken into the Captain Morgan. But if we did, I think Captain Morgan would have won. She would have beat Captain Marvel and Captain America. Absolutely. So what she's talking about, because a lot of people don't know, is every week gives, you and I put out a probably a 20-minute thing on Patreon. Sure.

That people can listen to in their podcast feed comes out on Saturdays. And we have fun with it. We get crazy with it a little bit sometimes. Yeah, you pick all me. Sure. And every now then, we drop a Patreon-only episode, which is really good. You mean like the one that dropped last night? Yeah, good stuff.

It is good stuff. Yeah. So, but, you know, less than 1% of our total audience is on Patreon. So there's a, there's a great population, but it's small population that hears all that stuff. For people that are not on Patreon, if you ever think about it, there's some good stuff. Extra content for sure. Minimal. Minimal, a joint.

Hey, Mike and Gibby. This is Grant, calling from Kansas City, Kansas. I wanted to call and let you guys know that your podcast is incredible. He's me interested out of all hours of the day. I listen to you guys at work, at home, in the car. Any little bit of free time I get, I typically have you guys playing. I have a request, shockingly enough. like everyone else, but of Ed Jean, he is a man who inspired the Texas chainsaw massacre movies

and the character from those. And I've kind of read a little bit about him, but it sounds like he was a bit of a messed up dude, kind of like everyone else that you guys discussed. But I was wondering what you guys can maybe find details more than what I have on him. So keep up what you guys are doing. I love it. It gives me something to look forward to every week and keep your own time ticking. So somebody else wanting to hear Ed Gien. Yeah. So he's definitely coming up, no doubt about it.

He's coming up pretty fast. Pretty soon, yeah. All right, he gives we had mailbag. Mailbag. Amanda Moral from Sweden. Sweden sent you some licorice, which translated as jungle scream. I'm going to, supposed to eat me some jungle scream? Yep.

Should we, like, do this, like, close to a medical facility? Maybe. I mean, jungle scream. Yeah, I know. I have no idea what's going to happen. It kind of reminds me that one time when you had that one rash that you got from when we were at that one thing and you said, yeah, I got this tropical, tropical something. I know you're going down trying to make up a story, but when the made up story is I got a rash

when you and I were doing something, I don't think that's the type of story that you want to get out there. No, that's, it kind of went sideways on you there real sideways. I was trying to pull it back. I was like, oh, man. She sent me some Harley chips, and she cracked me up in the letter because she said, Mike, I hope you don't already have some chips from Malmo. No, no chips from Malmo, Sweden. Didn't pour in like you thought they would.

But darn it, if I just wasn't there last week and forgot to get them. But luckily, in the mail, I get chips from Malmo, Sweden. Malmo, yeah. Kim from Ontario sent a Harley Chip that I believe is from Barry. I think it's how you say it. Barry, Ontario. Okay, cool. I know they have a minor league hockey team there.

Well, it's the Barry Colts. It's Canada, right? Yeah. Everything's hockey. Because on my PlayStation hockey game, sometimes I play on the Barry Colts. But yet, I'm pretty sure there's no Canadian team in the Stanley Cup this year. Pretty sure. Are you sure about that?

Pretty sure. Okay. And then our great friend Vicki Farachi. Farachi. Had a sticker made up personally for you, Gibbs. Aw. And it says Oregon, O-R-Y-G-U-N. If you say so.

She literally went to a company and had a sticker made and sent it to you. One could read it that way or one could read it a different way. What would be the different way? Well, you want me read it to you? Yeah. Let me read it to you. Okay, you're going to pull it out of its package. Yep.

And you can read it as or why gone. Oh, now you've got a whole other pronunciation. That's how I roll. Oh, all right. That's it. We've got to get out of here, man. All right. You got anything else?

No. All right. What is it? That is it for another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike and Gibby. Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.