True Crime All The Time - Father Gerald Robinson

Episode Date: June 3, 2024

On April 5th, 1980, Sister Margaret Ann Pahl was murdered inside the chapel of Mercy Hospital in Toledo, Ohio. Father Gerald Robinson, one of the hospital chaplains, was suspected and even questioned in her murder. But, it would take many years to solve the mystery of who killed Sister Margaret.Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss Father Gerald Robinson. Early in the investigation, it seemed some authorities were trying to protect Father Robinson and the Church. But as forensic techniques advanced, more evidence pointed toward Father Robinson's responsibility. It was an extremely brutal murder, and the question of motive was hard to answer.You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 386 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. How are you? Yeah, I'm doing good. How about you? I'm doing great. You and I are taping early this week. We've just come off of the Memorial Day weekend.

We did. And we just talked on our Patreon mini episode about what we did. My wife's new obsession with pickleball. Yeah. She now has a net, rackets. She's wearing a go. A backpack. Does she have a backpack that you take a sip out of the water while you're playing to?

No, this is a backpack that holds all the rackets and all that. Yeah. We're not that good at it yet, but that is our goal. Well, one day, you could be the champions of your age group in Ohio. Okay. Or maybe better. Why did you have to limit it? Limited to the age group.

You could just be champions. It could be. Hey, let's go ahead and give our Patreon shoutouts. We had Emily Wausen. Hey, Emily. Heather Caval, Dimiola. Ah, Demiola.

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Crystal Valdez. What's going on, Crystal? And last but not least, Stephanie Yelvington. Uh, Yelvington. That's very. popular that's that's what you i mean not popular but very talking about yeah um not popular like a like a coup that we would actually get a yell yes yes and then if we go back into the vault this week we selected david regan what's up david so we appreciate all that support

we also had a great paypal donation from mark dis spain oh the disband de spain de spain de spain so we appreciate all of it Gibbs we have an episode out right now on true crime all the I'm unsolved where we're headed back to the 1960s Henderson County, North Carolina, to talk about three individuals who were found near Lake Summit. And this is a very interesting case because you have two men who were friends in their 30s, 40s, and then you have a 60-year-old woman who really had no known connection to these men. And so there's a lot of mystery, intrigue, and, you know, we go through all of it. We do.

Yeah, this case is just a little bit more than 57 years old. How about that? Do you know how I know that? Because it occurred right around the same time you were born. Exactly, yeah. It occurred when you were 12 years old. No. All right, buddy, are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time?

I am. We are talking about Father Gerald. Robinson. On April 5th, 1980, sister Margaret and Paul was murdered inside the chapel of Mercy Hospital in Toledo, Ohio. Father Gerald Robinson, one of the hospital chaplains, was eventually linked to the murder. But it took many, many years and some advances in forensic techniques. Margaret and Paul was born on April 6, 1909. She was the fourth of nine, nine, children and her parents were farmers. The family were devout Catholics.

Did the nine kids give that away? The fact that they were Catholic? Yeah. What are you saying? Catholic? People of the Catholic faith tend to have a lot of kids. Back on the day they did, yeah. Yeah, that could be.

But also, in the early 1900s, just a lot of people had a lot of kids, I feel like. To work the farm. Well, and we have talked about that. They were farmers. Sister Paul had cousins who were none, so she was exposed to religious life from a young age. When she was a teenager, Sister Paul told her family, she was going to become a Sister of Mercy once she finished school. In September 1927, Sister Paul packed up her belongings, and her family took her to Our Lady of the Pines, a convent in Fremont, Ohio,

established by the Sisters of Mercy. I kind of went by that a couple weekends ago and I set it up to Cedar Point, Sandusky, Ohio. You went by what, Fremont or this Our Lady of the Pine? Well, this Fremont, Ohio. Oh, okay.

And I think maybe I've seen something that was like this, but can't confirm or deny. Okay. Well, you're very vague and seeing what. I am a vague person. Or going by what? Yeah.

I don't like to make commitment. You know, her family was sad. to see her go, but Margaret had no doubts. This was what she wanted to do with her life. So there's a couple of things here for me. You know, one is that you have a young person who really knows from an early age what they want to do with their life. I don't think that's all that common. And I think it's less and less common today. I absolutely agree with you. I think you and I have talked about it before. When I was a kid, I wanted to be a professional baseball player, an astronaut, you know, whatever. Could I have done those things? No, probably not.

And I wanted to do open heart surgery before I was 21. And you, and you did do that. And I achieved it. Yeah. But then the second thing, not only knowing what you want, but, you know, this is so specific. And it's such a big commitment. You know, this is not taking a job at Walmart. No. You know, if you don't like that, not that hard to leave, right? You just tell them, hey, this is not for me. I'm going to go do something else.

You know, going to the convent, you're really starting a journey that is going to be a lifelong thing. Yeah, I mean, you're devoting your life to God. Yeah, absolutely. Sister Paul graduated from St. Rita's Medical Center of Nursing in 1934. She served as the supervisor of the medical and surgical floor in 1966 and directed hospital patient relations from 1967 to 1969. And to find out that, you know, she becomes a nurse. She's managing the surgical floor. And obviously she worked at this hospital. for a very long time. You know, putting those two things together seems pretty amazing to me. She also worked as an administrator at two hospitals and was the director of the school of nursing at Mercy Hospital in Toledo.

So pretty good career. Yeah, it sounds like she had a distinguished career. By 1980, Sister Margaret Ann had difficulty hearing and considered retiring. She stopped working at the hospital. directly, but she still took care of Mercy Hospital's two chapels, although she was respected by other sisters and the hospital staff. Sister Paul was known for having a domineering personality. Well, when you've been around that long, getting things done, maybe that personality kind of grew to that domineering type. That could be. There are a lot of ways of getting things done. The domineering

personality might not be the one that is most liked by subordinates, but there's no doubt it can be extremely effective. And I think as you get older, some people get more domineering. But get more set in their ways. They expect things a certain way. Yeah. I think there's something to that as well. According to the Toledo Blade, one detective interviewed a nun who called Sister Paul old school. The same detective wrote, she demanded everything to be done exactly as she wanted it done and on time. Housekeeper Shirley Lucas later testified that Sister Paul was strict and stern. During one of their first meetings, Sister Paul scolded her for wasting scraps of soap and toilet paper. Don't you be wasting that toilet paper now?

You get two squares and that is it. Make it work. I don't care what you're doing in there. you only get two squares make it work but when i think of old school you know i i didn't go to a catholic school or or anything like that but i've heard people talk about some of the stories you know getting wrapped on the knuckles with a ruler one of those wooden rulers or or something like that you know that's what i kind of think of as old school same here you stayed in line you did what they told you to do or there were repercussions.

And that's what worked back then, probably for her. And that's why she's carrying it all the way through in her career, right? That's what she knows to work. So she wants to make sure that that's what she utilizes. There were two chaplains at Mercy Hospital, Father Jerome Switecki and Father Gerald Robinson. Sister Paul worked closely with Father Robinson because she maintained the chapels. Father Robinson was born in Toledo in 1938 and was ordained as a priest in 1964.

He was a pretty popular priest and had a faithful following. He delivered sermons and was able to hear confessions in both English and Polish. Sister Margaret and Paul was murdered on April 5th, 1980, inside the chapel at Mercy Pospospo. It was Easter weekend. April 5th was Holy Saturday and also the day before Sister Paul's 72nd birthday. Wow. So here's a woman who ostensibly lived her entire life in the service of God and others. Now, she might have been stern.

She might not have been the most popular at times, but it sounds like she was very devout. and she was good at what she did to be murdered in the Mercy Hospital Chapel, which you helped take care of. On one of the most religious weekends. Yeah. Yeah, I think that adds an element to it as well. The day before on Good Friday, housekeeper Shirley Lucas reported that Sister Paul was upset to the point of tears

because the chapel was not as perfect as she wanted it to be. per the Toledo blade. So she turned 72. She's upset because it's not perfect and we're getting ready to have Easter celebration this weekend. And I think it speaks to the type of person she was. It does sound like she was somewhat of a perfectionist, right? She wanted it a certain way. And there are many people like this.

When it's not that way, things are going to be unpleasant. Yeah. something that people have experienced with me from time to time. I'll be honest. There are certain things that I care very deeply about how they're done. There are other things that I couldn't care less, how you do it. That is very true. But the things I do care about, I'm going to be on you. I know that. Yeah, unfortunately, you get the brunt of some of that. Sister Paul was also upset because Father Robinson had shortened. the Good Friday service, Sister Paul took Shirley Lucas by the hand and cried,

why did they cheat God out of what was his? So it does sound like, you know, she was very upset, right, to the point of tears. Sister Paul woke up at 5 a.m. on Saturday, April 5th, her room was in the upstairs living quarters at Mercy Hospital. She came down to the dining room at 6.15 a.m., but she didn't eat right away. She went to a.m. She went to a.m.m. She went to a. closet and picked out some cleaning cloths and incense, then put the items on a chapel pew. She returned to the dining room at 6.20 and ate breakfast after she finished her meal. She told a cafeteria worker she was going to St. Joseph's Chapel to prepare the altar for the Easter services the following day. Sister Paul left the dining room at 6.45 a.m.

So it sounds like she's just trying to get her day going. She's had breakfast. Now she's ready to take care of her chore. But it also sounds like a very busy day. You know, up at five, working, eats at 6.15. Yeah. You know, I'm barely sliding into bed at some of these times. Yeah, we'll say you're not used to starting your day why the sun is still not out. No, no, not at all. I am not a morning person. Just after 8 a.m., a nun was walking to the chapel and stopped to pick up what she thought was a folded piece of linen in the hallway. She set the linen down on a pew, then decided to make a phone call in the sacristy, a room inside the chapel where the priest's robes and other religious objects are stored. The nurse screamed when she opened the door.

Sister Paul's body was on the floor, and it was a pretty nasty scene. Sister Paul was strangled and stabbed inside the sacristy. The killer laid an altar claw across her body and stabbed through it, 31 times hitting Sister Paul's neck and torso. Nine of the stab wounds formed the shape of an upside down cross. She had a smear of blood on her forehead. Wow, this is really brutal. It would be brutal in any scenario.

But let's look at this scenario specifically. We have a nun inside the sacristy. Someone murdered her, but in a very specific way. Some of the stuff I kind of want to walk through, you know, why would someone lay an altar claw across her body and then stabbed through that? And that's one of the first questions that I had. Yeah, it takes away of the being so personal, right? If you don't have to look at the face. It could. That could be one option. Another option could possibly be that it would stop some of the spatter of blood. True. And then I think you could also make a case that there's maybe a religious aspect to it as well. Oh, that's kind of like a Dan Brown vibe. Is it the guy who wrote all those books, the demon, demon and angels and yeah. All the ones where Tom. Hanks.

Yes. Plays the leading role. Yeah. Demons and angels not the most well known. Yeah. What is the most well known? I don't remember. But they were all good.

They were all good books. Now, a lot of religious people did not like some of those books at all. If you remember, when they came out, there were, there was a lot of upset people at what was being put forth in those books. But then, you know, I think you also have to talk about that some of these stab wounds form the shape of an upside down cross. So what do you make of that? So maybe the person was aligned with a cult or they wanted you to believe that the murderer

was aligned with the cult. And anti-religion. Yes. Because what a great time to make an anti-religion. statement, right? Easter weekend? A murder and a very sacred place inside the church? Of a none. Of a nun. Sister Paul's body was surrounded by lit candles and her arms were folded across her chest. Her habit was pulled up to her chest and her girdle and hose were pulled down.

It was later to determine that she was not raped by the killer, but experts later testified that she was assaulted with a cross or similar. item per the Toledo blade. Wow. Okay. So this is a whole other level. Well, it is. And there's a couple of things here. You've got candles. You have the killer folding her arms across her chest. Again, to me, that kind of goes back to, was this somebody who knew her, somebody who cared about her, even though they did what they did, they wanted to put her in a in a pose that was almost respectful, although that's juxtaposed with the fact that her habits pulled up or, you know, hose are pulled down. And she's assaulted. And she's assaulted not with the killer's genitalia, but with maybe something like a cross.

Again, so there's really mixed messages here for me. It seems as though maybe some, someone cared about her. You have the placing of the altar cloth over top her body, the folding of her arms. But then you have the upside down cross and potentially her being assaulted with a cross, a very religious symbol. It just seems like whoever did this at a lot of time to position the body to do these different acts to the body. Doesn't seem like it's, you know, 30 seconds, you're dead, move on. No, no, there was definitely some time taken at the scene to do some of these things.

Officers immediately thought the scene looked like a ritualistic murder. One of the blinds in the room was lowered and one door was locked. Investigators found a skeleton key inside the lock of the second door. The corner determined Sister Paul was strangled from behind by a, someone with large hands. Investigators collected the cloth, picked up by the nun before she found Sister Margaret Ann.

The linen had what appeared to be bloodstains on it, strangled from behind by someone with large hands. That should help with reducing the suspect pool. Yeah, I mean, you know, large hands kind of lead you to believe that this most likely was a man rather than a woman, although there are some women who have large hands,

like in that one Jerry Seinfeld episode. Those are big hands, yeah. Father Robinson and Father Switech said the funeral mass for Sister Paul on April 9. A $10,000 reward was offered for information leading to the arrest of the killer. Gerald Robinson was a suspect early on. When he entered the chapel after Sister Paul's body was found, Father Switechie accused him of murder. So you have one priest accusing another priest of murdering a nun.

My assumption is that Father Switecki had something leading him to that conclusion or else he wouldn't have gone to that extent. Right. Yeah. What did he know at that moment to that conclusion? Robinson was questioned on April 18th and 19th and underwent two polygraph tests. He failed the first one and passed the second, which complicated the investigation. I bet it did because now you're like, wait a minute. How did that happen?

To me, they just cross each other out and you start, start over. But let's not forget, this is, you know, the 1980s. There was a lot more thought of in regards to polygraph tests. than I think they're thought of today. Well, we know how inaccurate they can be based on our own. In studio test we did. Right. We have a polygraph machine here in the studio.

And I hooked Gibby up on a Patreon episode one time. And I passed with flying colors. It was surprisingly accurate for something I got off Amazon. Yeah. I will say that. The police searched Father Robinson's belongings and found a unique, sword-like letter opener in his desk drawer. This letter opener had a dime-sized medallion, with the image of the U.S. Capitol on it.

It was taken into evidence and stored for the next 24 years. According to the New York Times, Robinson's interview was interrupted by Deputy Police Chief Ray Vedder. Vedder allowed a Monsignor to escort Father Robinson out of police headquarters. Deputy Chief Vetter also requested that. that detectives give him their reports. Some of them were never seen again. And I think, you know, those things give you a real sense that this guy was trying to protect

Father Robinson or the church. Or the church or boat. The case was dropped within a month due to lack of evidence. Deputy Chief Vetter retired in 1986. 20 years later in 2006, he would testify that he was not involved with the investigation. So they suspect his father Robinson. They don't have enough evidence, you know, to do anything with him. Now, could they have maybe obtained additional evidence, possibly even a confession?

If detectives were allowed to interview him more, it's a possibility. Yeah. but it does sound like, you know, this chief vetter shut everything down pretty quickly. And the case pretty much went cold until 2003. On June 11th of that year, a 41-year-old woman appeared before a church review board asking for more than $50,000. In counseling costs, she incurred as a victim of clerical sexual abuse. The woman alleged that she had been. abused for years by priests in the Toledo diocesan. These priests conducted cult-like ceremonies

where they sexually abused children. And she named four clerics, including Chet Warren, who was ousted in 1993, after five women accused him of sexual misconduct, according to the Toledo Blake. She also accused Warren of arranging an encounter with Father Gerald Ruffey. Robinson. The diocese hired two retired police officers who conducted a nine-month investigation. This woman claimed that the abuse started when she was in preschool in the 1960s. So I'm thinking this is going to get a lot of attention if it makes it to the media. Yeah, it's going to get a lot of attention, I would think. But, you know, let's be honest, these types of allegation have been made against clergy, you know, all over.

the country, all over the world, many times a lot of that stuff got swept under the rope. You know, they would transfer a priest to another parish. And he would just keep on doing the same stuff he was doing. You know, have you ever seen that movie spotlight? Oh, yeah. That is a great movie. But it's kind of heartbreaking. Oh, it's very, very depressing. To realize what someone of these individuals were allowed to get away with and for how long. As reported by the AP, the woman wrote that priests put her in a coffin filled with cockroaches, forced her to ingest what she believed was a human eyeball, and penetrated her with a snake to consecrate her body to Satan. She alleged that a group of clerics killed an infant and a three-year-old child

performed an abortion on her and mutilated dogs during rituals. If true, very disturbing. Absolutely disturbing. Now, do you have to, you know, look at some of this stuff with a little bit of skepticism? I mean, this is a woman who's now 41 years old at this point talking about things that happened to her when she was a very young child. you absolutely cannot dismiss it. No.

What you have to do is try to corroborate it. But you know what makes that really tough is how much time has gone by? I think that hurts any of these types of situation. But also, if you think about back when this occurred, how the church was looked at. Viewed? Yeah. almost as if they were beyond reproach. Untouchable.

Yeah. I do think there was an air of that. But also, you know, let's be honest, how many people want to believe that these types of individuals who have given up their lives

to God, essentially, would be capable of doing some of these things. I think, you know, especially early, on when a lot of this stuff started to come out, that was very hard for people to comprehend. Sure. Yeah. Now, a lot of that stuff has been proven. And so you kind of have to face the facts. But especially, you know, if you were a very religious person and you knew some of these priests, you listened to them on a weekly basis, wouldn't that be pretty tough for you to believe?

It would be a pretty, pretty hard pill to swallow. This woman claimed she was forced to have sexual contact with Robinson when she was 14 years old near the chapel of the St. Vincent Mercy Medical Center. She said that there were no rituals in this instance. Now, what I will say is that this woman is very detailed in her account of things. Robinson was one of the individuals named in the woman's lawsuit. Lucas County Prosecutor's Office received this woman's report in December 2003. Investigators could not substantiate her allegations, but her mention of Father Robinson led the cold case squad to take another look at the murder of Sister Margaret and Paul.

And like I said, I would think it would be hard to substantiate her allegations for the mere fact that so many years have gone. by. Yeah, I mean, it comes down to her word against their word, right? Well, and I would think some of the people involved would no longer be living. So they're not even going to have a word on it. You're not going to be able to question them. Prosecutors saw that there wasn't enough evidence for charges back in 1980. There were also allegations that the police did not pursue the case thoroughly because the main suspect was a priest. There you go, right? That goes back to that time frame where,

ah, would a priest do something like that? We don't think so. Well, and you also have to look at the actions of this, you know, deputy veteran. Right. Why did he intervene? Why did he stop the interrogations, the interviews? You know, what was the motive behind that?

Was it to protect? this guy specifically or to protect the church in general. In early 2004, the prosecutor's office hired forensic experts to re-examine evidence in the case. They focused on two main pieces of evidence, the bloody altar cloth and Father Robinson's letter opener. Forensic investigators determined that the letter opener could have created the cuts in the altar cloth and that the state's on the cloth were created when the letter opener was laid on top of it. Most importantly, it was determined that a faint bloodstain on the cloth matched the imprint of the dime size medallion

on the letter opener with the emblem of the U.S. Capitol on it. Oh, there's some good detective work. Well, it is, but you know, you also have a very distinct weapon. You know, this is not a knife that somebody bought from Cabellas that thousands and thousands of people own. Yeah, this is, like you said, very unique. And this little imprint of the Capitol building is just part of what makes it so unique. So, you know, to find a bloodstained imprint of that makes it hard to believe that that letter opener was not involved in some way in the murder of Sister Paul. And by extension, it puts Father Robinson in the crosshairs because it was his letter

opener. Investigators were relying on blood transfer patterns and not DNA evidence, which was risky for their case. However, they were able to find three witnesses who said they saw Robinson near the chapel around the time of the murder. So that's pretty important. I think so. Three different witnesses can put him near the scene of the murder. The murder weapon is thought to have possibly been his letter opener. Okay, things not looking great.

Yeah. Get a little motive in there and maybe got something to go on. And Robinson was still an active priest during the investigation. He was transferred in 1981 and served as pastor of. three parishes in Toledo. He moved to a different church in 1989, and in 1994, he became the chaplain of a hospital and a nursing home where he ministered to the sick and dying. You know, when you hear that, you think, wow, you know, he had a pretty good career.

Yeah, and it also sounds like he probably did some very, very good work. Yeah. until you think about what the one victim accuses him of doing. And then you think about this murder and it obviously wipes all that out. But here's the thing for me. You know, you have some people who are just really bad people. Like almost everything they do is kind of bad. Yeah.

Right. But not everyone's like that. You can have people who 99% of the time are great. husbands, fathers, neighbors. Everybody thinks they're great, but then they're out doing, or maybe they just do one thing, but that thing is so heinous. Right.

That it is in complete opposition to the way that they act in their, you know, daily life. I think the problem with Father Robinson is he's in a position of power. Well, you say power. I would also add the word trust. Yes. Because I think that's an important one too. Yeah. You know, there's power. There's trust.

You look at certain people in certain occupations. You know, take a doctor. For example, a nurse, a priest. You know, when we do cases on these individuals, in a certain way, sometimes they're scarier than these boogeyman type guys that we talk about. Yeah. Because you're not letting Otis Tool take out your appendix. No.

You're not trusting him with anything, any facet of your life. But a priest, a doctor, a nurse, these are people who we put a lot of trust and faith in to help us, to have our best interests at heart. We don't expect them to take advantage of us or to hurt us in any way. No, especially if you grew up in this church at a young age, this guy here is probably the closest thing to God in your mind, right? I mean, he's a man of the cloth. He kind of symbolizes that maybe for you.

On April 23rd, 2004, 66-year-old Gerald Ruff. Robinson was arrested in charge with the murder of Sister Paul. The church put Robinson on a leave of absence on April 27. On May 7, 2004, Robinson pleaded not guilty to aggravated murder. And a lot of people Gibbs, you know, they believed in Robinson's innocence. His supporters worked together to help him post his $400,000 bond. Some even put their homes up as, collateral. Well, if he has been your priest, your father for all these years and has not given you

any reason to think that he has done anything wrong ever, besides been there to offer you support and guidance, and you're a true believer in the church, I can see that happening. Yeah, use the phrase tough pill to swallow earlier. Yeah. I think for a lot of people, this would be. that type of scenario. You know, I think there's some people who would say if they found out that their neighbor was charged with,

you know, a brutal murder and say, I find that hard to believe. But that's much different than finding out that your priest has been charged with a murder. Right. You don't put,

you know, most people don't, all that much faith and trust in a neighbor as you would your priest. Yeah. It's two very different things. Or your mechanic, right? If you found out that your mechanic was charged with murder,

he's a really good mechanic. I like him. He's always been nice, but you're not putting your home up as collateral probably. Yeah, you're like, you know, I knew Jimmy had this thing about him, you know, so, yeah.

I mean, for you, just because a person is good with a nice, 1968 Volkswagen bus doesn't mean they couldn't do bad things in their spare time. With that bus. With your bus. Yeah, exactly. According to the news messenger, when the police searched Robinson's home in April 2004, they found several hundred photos of caskets and corpses with a pamphlet about the occult

that was written by a Catholic organization. Okay. I don't know what you make of that. I don't either. several hundred photos of caskets and corpses. Now, this is a guy who, I'm sure,

presided over a lot of funerals, over his many years. I'm assuming that was part of his duties. Right. It does seem like strange things to keep at your home. It was to promote or... What are you promoting? I don't know.

I just have a hard time understanding. why. And then I think when you think specifically about this pamphlet that addressed the occult, well, then it takes you immediately back to the stab wounds forming the upside down cross. Prosecutors chose not to use these items as evidence because they weren't sure if it had anything to do with the murder and they didn't want to lose credibility with the jury. And I completely understand that you and I are sitting here trying to figure out what this stuff means. I'm sure they they were doing the same thing. It looks weird, but, you know, if we present it to the jury and we can't explain how it ties in to the murder or what it means, okay, we could possibly lose credibility.

You don't want to get a side route. You want to try to stay focused. Yeah. And there is something to muddying the water, right? Attorneys pick and chew. very carefully what they want to introduce, what they want to try to limit, because even if it looks like it couldn't be good for their side, it could blow up in their faces very quickly. Robinson's attorney said he had the photos because it was an old Polish custom.

And maybe it is, maybe it isn't. I have no idea. I'm not Polish. I can't answer that. Yeah, I'm not either. But it still seems strange. I mean, anytime you have a large number of photographs of corpses, people are going to look at that, you know, a little sideways.

Sister Paul's body was exhumed in April 2004 and examined at the Lucas County Corner's office to test for DNA evidence. Court documents released in late February 2005 stated that a search of Robinson's house turned up new evidence linking him to the murder. These documents were released to support two police searches conducted in September at the Toledo Catholic Diocese. Investigators sought search warrants because they were seeking secret files, allegedly maintained by the diocese, according to the AP.

A detective learned the diocese had been keeping secret archives since at least 1970. Wow. The dioces issued a statement that it had no secret files and that church law calls for diocese to maintain a confidential archive for certain matters, but the Toledo diocese didn't have one. Robinson was supposed to go to trial in October 2005. But on December 31st of that year, the Lucas County Prosecutor's Office reduced the aggravated murder charge to murder because they determined. determined the killing was not premeditated. At a pretrial hearing in February 2006, an investigator told the court that back in 1980, Robinson told the police someone had confessed to the murder.

But he later said he lied because he wanted to deflect a detective's accusatory tone during an interview. The defense wanted these statements thrown out because Robinson was not told he had the right to remain silent. And this is kind of shocking to hear that a priest is lying because we don't expect that. Well, we also don't expect priests to murder. But yeah, I do think this is something to, you know, keep in mind. Robinson is being interviewed by police and he lied. He later admitted he lied. Now, he says it was just to deflect the detective's accusatory tone.

but I don't know how many people would buy that. But you can understand why the defense would want that statement thrown out. Oh, for sure. Jury selection for Robinson's murder trial started on April 17, 2006. Prosecutors told the jury that Robinson and Sister Paul had a strained relationship because of her domineering personality. Things reached a breaking point on the day of the murder after Sister Paul complained about how he conducted the Good Friday service.

Prosecutor said it wasn't until 2004 that investigators were able to determine that Father Robinson's letter opener was used to stab Sister Paul. According to them, the blade fit her wounds like a key in a lock. Very descriptive. It's very descriptive. Obviously, the way you figure that out is pretty morbid because they're going to have to stick this letter opener into some of the wounds. But you can determine the width and, you know, all of that.

And maybe they did it that way. I don't know. Maybe I shouldn't say they had to actually use the letter opener. Maybe they did. Yeah. Maybe they figured out the width and the thickness and... Yeah. Maybe it was possible that way.

Prosecutor Dean Mandros argued per NBC, see, strangers don't typically have that emotional energy to stab someone 31 times. And that's a sentiment that we've heard many, many times in different episodes. And I think it's why the leading theory is often that with these large number of stab wounds, you're looking for someone who has some connection to the victim, who is angry with the victim. because obviously you don't need to stab someone 31 times to kill them. You can do it with less stab. Absolutely.

Mandros told the jury that witnesses would testify that Sister Margaret was upset to the point of tears about Robinson's Good Friday service. Witnesses also heard footsteps in a hallway near Robinson's room around the time the nun was killed. And Robinson was the only person who lived on that floor. additionally, Robinson lied about having a key to the sacristy where Sister Paul was killed. So again, you know, if all the this is true, this is the second lie that, you know, he's been caught up in, not including the fact that he didn't murder, Sister Paul. Defense attorney Alan Knapp argued that inconsistent witness statements would cause doubts about who committed the crime.

the defense noted that prosecutors continued the investigation after Robinson was arrested because they still hadn't proved their case. And is that all that unusual? I was thinking, no, it's probably not. So you arrest someone. Doesn't the prosecution continue to try to put things together as much as they can? Absolutely. All the way up to the trial, right? Yeah, better your case?

Why wouldn't you? Yeah, I didn't understand that part. The jury also heard that Sister Paul's underwear and fingernails had traces of DNA that were not from her or Robinson. And if true, that would be an interesting set of circumstances. You could see where that could put some doubt in a jury's mind. Absolutely. According to the news messenger, Assistant County coroner Diane Scala. Barnett testified that the letter opener was a perfect fit when inserted into the wound

on Sister Paul's jaw. When they exhumed her body 24 years later, they could still see the stab wounds. The letter opener was also consistent with punctures in the altar claw. The pattern of punctures indicated the killer may have used a template or guide to make the upside down cross shape, according to Detective Terry Casino. Just trying to think how hard would it be to do an upside down cross. You need a template. Yeah, I don't think it would be that hard. Technically, you could just do a regular cross from a different angle.

Yeah. And it would then turn into an upside down cross. Examiner Josh Franks, who was involved with the original investigation, testified that no fingerprints or residue were found on the letter opener, which was suspicious. It seemed like it had been sterilized. Franks removed the medallion and found a spec. Testing indicated the possible presence of blood.

But the sample was too small for a more conclusive test, and they didn't have DNA testing back then. Paulette Sutton, a medical examiner specializing in bloodstain evidence, found that bloodstains on the altar claw. and Sister Paul's forehead could have come from the letter opener. One stain resembled the U.S. Capitol medallion on the letter opener. And to me, that is a really big part of this case. I get it.

The letter opener is consistent with the womb. Right. Consistent with the cuts made in the altar cloth. But this stain found in blood. To me, that is so. very specific, you know, of this medallion. Yeah, unless every person in that building had one of them. Had the same letter opener.

And yeah, and I don't believe they did. A DNA expert testified that the altar cloth in Sister Paul's underwear had traces of male DNA, but it was not Robinson's. And again, I would think that doesn't bode well for the prosecution in most instances. I think it's going to start throwing some doubt up in the air. Dr. Henry Lee, a high-profile forensic expert who testified at the O.J. Simpson trial, told the court that the bloodstain on the altar cloth was similar to the medallion on the letter opener, but he couldn't say it was an exact match.

Reverend Jeffrey Grob, an expert on the occult, testified that the murder was committed by someone who had a deep understanding of church symbols. and rituals, the smear of blood on Sister Paul's forehead was meant to be a mockery of the last rights issued by the Catholic Church. Prosecutor Dean Mandro said, per the New York Times, all of these things were done to have her die in the most humiliating, degrading way possible for a nun. Yes. The person that did this really disliked her, right? I mean, that's the sense that you get, two hospital employees testified that they saw Robinson outside the chapel within an hour before Sister Paul was found. Next, jurors watched Robinson's video interview from April 2004

where he said he was stunned when he walked into the chapel and the other chaplain accused him of murder. Robinson was left alone in the interview room for several minutes. He folded his hands and whispered to himself quietly. The camera picked up the words, Sister and Oh my Jesus. Okay, really not sure what that means. No, it's not a smoking gun type of thing, but it's not going to stop people from making what they want out of it.

You know, it's not quite Robert Durst talking into the microphone as he's relieving himself in the, in the, bathroom, but that's true. But I am always amazed that people don't seem to understand that just because a detective walks out of an interview room, it doesn't mean the camera's still on them. Their words are still being recorded. I actually think some detectives prefer that, right? They like to go get a cup of coffee.

I'll be right back. Yeah, I think it's a tactic. Yeah. some of them use. Kathleen Rikes, a forensic anthropologist and best-selling mystery author, testified for the defense that investigators who inserted the letter opener into Sister Paul's jawbone may have compromised evidence. On May 11, 2006, Father Gerald Robinson was found guilty of murder and immediately sentenced to a mandatory term of 15 years to life. So we talked about a number of of pieces of evidence, you know, some circumstantial, some that really didn't look good for Robinson.

Some, you could argue, were problematic for the prosecution. Yeah. But when it was all said and done, the jury weighed everything and they found Father Robinson guilty. In 2009, Robinson's attorneys asked for another test of the DNA found on Sister Paul's fingernails, they argued that the DNA could have belonged to serial killer Carl Eugene Watts. Watts died of cancer in 2007. But he confessed to a dozen murders. In Texas was suspected of more than 80 murders altogether.

He strangled and stabbed victims repeatedly in random attacks. Watts, though, was ruled out by DNA testing. The defense paid to test the same DNA, this time, suggest. it could have come from Father Jerome Switechie, the other chaplain at Mercy Hospital. Switecchi died in 1996, but he too was cleared by DNA testing. That year, Robinson told the Columbus Dispatch that other prisoners called him father and told him their sin. In April 2012, Gerald Robinson once again asked the Ohio 6th District Court of Appeals to throw out his conviction.

A year earlier, a judge denied his petition for post-conviction relief. The court found that Robinson's trial attorneys were aware of serial killer Carl Watts as a possible suspect, but did not pursue that strategy at trial. The police had also testified about dissimilarities between Watts' MO and the murder of Sister Paul. For example, Watts normally stalked young women and killed. them outside buildings. Which didn't happen in this case. No, it didn't happen in this case.

But is it unusual for, you know, some of these infamous serial killers with very high known murder victims to be thrown into the mix? You know, as the defense team, if you're looking to plant some reasonable doubt, well, there's a bevy of people if you can prove that they were. were operating in and around the area. Yeah, nothing better than tossing a serial killer in the mix. Sure, because you know they're capable of it. Robinson argued that the state withheld key documents and once again argued that his trial

attorneys failed to pursue Carl Watts as an alternate suspect. He argued that his trial attorneys mistakenly thought Watts was in prison on the day of the murder, but Watts was free and living in Michigan just 40 miles from to live. Bolinson's filing pointed out how the murder of Sister Paul was eerily similar to many of the murders committed by Watts. Many of the victims in the Carl Watts case had their shirts lifted up and Sister Paul's habit was pulled up. Additionally, Carl Watts strangled and stabbed his victims repeatedly. Sister Paul was killed in the same manner. The filing stated that the prosecution failed to provide police reports that included witness statements that an unidentified black male was seen

walking the halls of the hospital at the time of the murder wats was a black man and fit the general height and weight description from the witness statements so he's trying to pretty hard yeah he's trying to make a good case with a conviction to be overturned one hundred and thirty nine pages of police reports were misfiled and were not available until they were found by chance in 2009. If the defense had been aware of the witnesses who saw the man in the hospital, it would have changed the outcome of the trial. I don't know if you could say would.

Well, and this is him. Yeah, yeah, I know. Saying that. Yeah, I mean, I think he should have said could have. Well, no, because he wants it to be wood. Well, that's true. You're right. Yep.

He wants to make sure things would have been different if we could have had those files. Yeah, I get your point, though. You know, technically a more accurate statement would be. could have been different. And that's always, you know, a struggle for the court. Okay, we have this, but would it have changed

the outcome of the trial? Even, you know, if it was true. And it has to be proven true, I think, first. Prosecutors also failed to provide the trial attorneys with a psychological profile of the killer, written by forensic psychologist Harley Stock

per the state's request. Prosecutors only gave the defense a one paragraph statement that a Toledo detective met Harley Stock in 1981, but did not disclose the details of the findings. According to the filing, Stock wrote that the killer was a non-white, ill-educated 20-something male, which did not match Robinson's description. And I would love to know how this person came up with that profile. Yeah, what was driving that? In February, 2013, the Ohio 6th District Court of Appeals rejected Robinson's petition for post-conviction relief. The court did not agree that the outcome of the trial would have been different with

the undisclosed evidence. His attorneys planned to appeal to the state Supreme Court. But Gerald Robinson died on July 4th, 2014. He was 76 years old. He suffered a heart attack in May and had been in hospice care. His lawyer Richard Kerr visited him in June, and he said, per the New York Times, I don't know, maybe this is where the good Lord wanted me to be in this prison for those people. Robinson died the day after a judge refused his request to be released to family care. I did think that was an interesting statement.

Maybe this is where the good Lord wanted me to be in this prison for those people. almost as if he felt as though he was doing a lot of good in prison. Yeah, he can say what he wants. I think you're there because the courts put you there because you did something wrong. Well, it's very hard to argue that the Lord wanted him to murder Sister Paul. But he's saying it as though, hey, I didn't commit the murder, but maybe I was put away anyway to help these people. Now, is he any different in some respects than other killers that we've talked about?

He is in the fact that he's a priest. Yeah. But is that going to stop him from saying things that, you know, lessen his responsibility, his culpability? I think some of that is just human nature. Absolutely. So as we wrap this one up, Gibbs, you know, the murder of sister Margaret and Paul has been solved for years.

But there are some lingering questions in this case. And I think first and foremost, you have to talk about this DNA that was found on her body. And not just on her body, in her underwear. Right. Who does that belong to?

How did it get there? Was it planted? Was it from something that happened earlier? Was it something happened during the time of the crime? Yeah. I mean, that part kind of has me stumped. You know, this is not a woman who you would believe was out having sexual relations. Right.

We don't know exactly what the DNA was comprised of, but I can hazard a guess. And, you know, if it doesn't belong to Gerald Robinson, does that mean he didn't commit the murder? And I would say, no, it doesn't mean he didn't. didn't, but there's a question there that to me has not been answered. Did he have somebody help him? Did he get whatever the DNA was? Did he get that from somebody else? Plan it?

Yeah, I mean, there's a number of scenarios, but, you know, and then I think we talked about it, but maybe not enough. We have to go back to, you know, this woman's allegations of sexual abuse. involving Father Robinson was all that truthful. And if so, you know, what else might this guy have been involved in? Yeah.

Because my thought is always, you know, when something comes to light, well, how much is out there that has not come to light? Yeah, that's still just lingering. Because somebody didn't want to come forward.

And you don't blame them for that. Something horrible happened to you and you don't want to talk about it. hey, I'm not going to badmouth anyone for that. Is her story more credible than after the conviction? I would think to some people it definitely would be. Yeah. Just because, you know, he's now branded a murderer.

So the kind of, well, a priest wouldn't do that. That's kind of out of the window. A little more believable that he would also do then what she has alleged. But I think you can then also ask the question, you know, does some of that stuff have anything to do with the murder? You know, did sister Paul know something or find something out? Did she confront Father Robinson about some other things that he was doing that he wasn't supposed to be doing? And he silenced her. Yeah, because what was really the drive behind doing what happened, right?

Well, what was said by the prosecution to me was a little lackluster. You know, she wasn't happy with the way that he handled the service and he killed her for that. I mean, I get it. People take pride in what they do. But, you know, as far as motives go, that's not one that is the easiest to believe. Yeah. I feel like there had to be something more. Yeah.

More than that. to stab someone 31 times. Yeah. Because you said you weren't happy with the way I delivered the service. Technically, yeah, it could have happened that way, but it does seem like there's just more to this story and we don't have it. And I don't know that we ever will because most of the key principles are deceased. But that's it for our episode on Gerald Robinson.

We've got some voicemails. You want to check those out? Let's hear them. Hi, guys. I was just listening to the episode about the dude named, well, the jerk named Dominic. And when you said about, y'all were talking about if you had a sister, you wouldn't put up with that. So I'm the baby of four with three older brothers. They've all passed away now, but that's another story. But when I was a kid and a young adult and, well, an older adult too,

if my brothers, somebody even hit me just a little bit, if my brothers had found out about it, it wouldn't have mattered how much I said, no, don't do it. I love him or whatever. The dude wouldn't have been around to tell the tell. He would have been in a swamp somewhere in Louisiana. or something. Anyway, I go back and forth between Team Givie and Team

Fergie. So today I'm going to say, for Gibby. Eric Missal about you and know it's not funny. Okay. Bye. Did she just put our names together? Yeah, I got to be honest with you. I wasn't, I'm not sure.

I couldn't quite make it out. I think so. McGibby? Is that what she said? For Ghibi. For Ghibi? Maybe that way you're saying about it. Actually, I thought.

thought she said F. Gibby. No. I thought that's what she said at first. And that could still be the case. Rewind and check for yourself. You make your own conclusion. No, she would never do that because she's a great listener, calls in a lot. Yes.

But we had no mailbag. What? No, no mail bag. So that's, that's it, buddy. We are getting ready to head out for Nashville. That's right. So this will air as you, and I are either driving back or have just gotten back home from Nashville.

Can't believe you're just going to wear cowboy boots and shorts. Who said I was wearing shorts? I hope you wear something. No, it's just cowboy boots on the ride down. That's a tradition. That's a very disturbing. Well, you and I are not driving together anyway. Not this time.

Thank goodness. Yeah. If we were, we wouldn't be anyway after that. Not after that. Yeah. All right, everyone. That's it for another episode of True Crime all the time. So for Mike and Gibby.

Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.