True Crime All The Time - Fred and Rosemary West Part2

Episode Date: November 19, 2018

Fred and Rose West, one of England's most notorious serial killer couples, murdered at least 9 together during the 1970s and 1980s. But, they also killed separately. When Fred, who was already a murderer, met Rose, the union brought out the worst in each of them. Their house at 25 Cromwell Street in Gloucester, England, would become known as "The House of Horrors".Join Mike and Gibby for part 2 of 2 of the Fred and Rose West story. In this finale episode we focus on the murders and sexual sadism committed by the couple. It's hard for anyone to imagine, but this extended to members of their own family as well. But, after they were caught all of the deep dark tragedies would come to light.You can help support the show by going to patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationSponsors:BetterHelp - Visit betterhelp.com/tcatt and use the promo code TCATT to get 10% off your first month. BetterHelp offers online counseling with the convenience of a number of technology options.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

and welcome to episode 105 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in True Crime. Mike Gibson, Gibby, how are you? Hey man, I'm good, man. Man, I know it's going to be a good episode. There you go.

Somebody suggested they're working on a new t-shirt for us for the store. Okay. That is going to say, man, I'm good, man. Man, I'm good, man. And some of your other Gibbyisms. We've got to get some gibbysms. out there. Is there such a thing? Yeah. And there's more all like with every episode, there seems to be more and more. I think you could almost write a book at this point called Gibbyism.

Three pages. Now I will say, I gave you a hard time about the cousin. Yeah. And I got quite a few emails. Yeah. About how many people have somebody in their family that uses the tea at the end. Thank you very much. And I gave them all the same reply. Okay, that's great. I'm still going to give you a hard time when he says cousin. Yeah, you always will. That's just never going to change.

All right, Gibbs, let's get to our shoutouts because we've got a jam-packed episode. So we had Julie Krimser. Thank you. Keaton, Heifel. Hey, Keaton. Freethy. Oh, Frithy. Hayden Lee Bushnell.

Hey, Bushnell. The Bushnell fortune. Absolutely. Kelly Hurst jumped up to our highest level. Thanks, Kelly. Molly Zink. Hey, Molly. Amanda Vieira.

Amanda Viera. Madeline Drake. Hey, Madeline. Tim Sanford. Thanks, Tim. Mary Figg. Mary. That's it.

Oh. You don't want to say the last name? Hey, Mary. Hey, Mary. Christine Peterson. Hey, Christine. Alexandra Santana. Alexander.

Melissa Buell. Hey, Melissa. Regan McDonald. I like that name. Regan. I always like that name too, Regan. Wasn't that the girl's name in The Exorcist, though? I don't talk about things like that.

Oh, you don't? I don't want to pull anything towards my direction. Like bad voodoo or bad vibes? Keep it away, man. Nathaniel Hobbs. Hey, Nathaniel. Madeline Hawke. Madeline.

Madeline. Jody Missy. Okay, Jody and Missy. Sam Gosling. Hey, Sam. Ryan's brother. Yeah. Nick Ashworth.

Hey, Nick. Gwen. She's Gwen. Stephanie. Who you think might be Gwen Stefani. Probably is. And doesn't want to reveal to Blake Shelton that she's supporting us. I understand why.

Thank you, Gwen. Angela Horello. Hey, Angela. Mariel McFarland. Ooh, Mario. She's say Mario. Megan Cartwright. Hey, Megan.

And then if we go back into the Volgibs, this week we selected Haley Porter. Hey, Lee. Been a longtime supporter of the show. We appreciate that. We appreciate the new support, the people that continue to support us month after month. It means a lot. And we had some great PayPal support as well. Really?

Yeah. Therese Quigley. Hey, Terese. Rachel Miller. Hey, thanks, Rachel. Jennifer Hess made a sizable donation. Jennifer. Deborah Pfeiffer.

Fifer. Mm-hmm. Fifer? Fife. Okay. Jason Shepley. Hey, Jason. Karen Washington.

Thank you. And then Darmah Jensen made a donation. Dharma. But she made it on behalf of her great friend Rachel Vaughn, who she called a super fan of T-Cat. She is. And Rachel's birthday is at the end of this month. Oh, happy birthday, Rachel. So have a great birthday.

Very happy birthday. And that was very nice of Darma. Yeah, Rachel is a huge fan. All right, Gibbs, at the time that this show is out, we also. have a brand new unsolved episode. Okay. And we're talking about the Hammersmith nude murders. Yeah.

Also known as the Jack the Stripper murders. Yeah, not the stripper like, hey, baby. Not, uh, how made a dollar bill you got? Not Patrick Swayze and Chris Farley in the, uh, the Chippendale skit. Yeah. Which one would you be? Not that. I would be more Chris Farley.

Okay. I do not look like Patrick Swayze in any way, shape or form. But we're back in England in the 60s and we've got a series of murders that we're going to talk about. Yes. And a lot of suspects or persons of interest to talk about some interest for sure. So definitely check that out. All right. Are you ready to dive in to part two? I know part one was particularly rough on you. It was. And I think rough on some of the listeners. There's no doubt about it. You know, we're not making these details up. Nobody would believe us if we did.

Some of them are so horrible. Yes. But I looked back on it, you know, so let's recap. Just, just quickly. So Fred and Rose horrible childhoods, right? Nobody would deny that. And we spent a fair bit of time detailing those out. Fred met Rose when he was 27.

She was only 15. By the next year, they're living together. you know, in a house in Gloucester. But let's not forget, Fred is already a murderer having killed Anna McFall and his unborn child. But that's the only two murders that we got to, right? In episode one, that's strange to distill it down like that, right? To a few sentences because that episode was jam packed with information.

The one thing I will definitely say, if you're listening to this and you haven't listened to episode one, don't start with this. because you are missing, you know, the backgrounds that are going to lead you into episode two. You've got to have that information. Make sure you go back and listen to part one. Absolutely. You got to know the backgrounds of these two individuals before we get into their horrific crimes and gives, we have to say up front, as horrible as some of those details were last week,

they're going to be equally bad and probably even worse. I'll say it's probably worse. in this episode. Yeah, we'll do some cookies. So we pick up the story with Fred and Rosemary living together with Fred's two children from a previous marriage. And we talked a lot about that in episode one. Well, Anna Marie was his, right? But Charmaine was not his biological child, even though both girls were living with him and now living with Rose.

Fred continued to have run-ins with the police. He was busted a number of times for theft, but he was eventually sent to prison on one of these theft charges or I think it was something related to him not paying fines or not showing up when he was supposed to. I forget exactly what it was. But he ends up in prison. And in a case of horrible timing, Rose found out that she was pregnant. Imagine that. With his child.

And she gave birth to a baby girl that she named Heather in 1970. But we've got to talk about this, Gibbs, right? Fred is in prison and you look at Rosemary. She not only has to have this baby on her own at the tender age of 16, but after the baby is born, roses by herself, left to care for the newborn Heather as well as Fred's other two children, Charmaine and Anna Marie. Again, this is a 16, 17 year old girl taking care of three kids on her own. It's a bit, man. One of which is a newborn. And we all know those of us that, you know, have had kids, that can be a full-time job to take care of a newborn. It's a lot to handle for anyone.

I would think it would be. Let alone a teenage girl. And I think deep down, Rose didn't want to take care of another woman's kids. I get that. I mean, you know what I'm saying. I can see where she's going to be like that. They can see how somebody could have that. Yeah.

That feeling. But again, just like Rose would do with everything, right, she takes everything to the extreme. It's one thing to think down deep, I can't believe I got to take care of these kids. They're not mine.

Fred's not even here. He's in prison. Right. but she treats them badly because of the fact that I think she resents it. She resents having to take care of someone else's kids. Yeah. Yeah. He's not there to help.

And the strain ultimately proved too much for Rose. I think it brought out her violent side and she murdered eight-year-old Charmaine in 1971. And this was just days before Fred was set to get out of prison. And she explained Charmaine's disappearance to Charmaine's sister Anna by telling her that her mother, Renna, had come to get Charmaine, which obviously was a lie. But the other thing it did, I mean, think about Anna. She's got to be thinking, why didn't my mom want me?

Yeah. What did I do wrong? What did I do? What did I do? Why did she take, you know, Charmaine, but didn't take me? So Rose hid Charmaine's body until Fred got out of prison. And when he did get out and he learned what she had done, he didn't take it the way that I think most of us would, right?

He didn't get upset. He didn't, you know, curse her out or say, how could you have done this to my child? Yeah. He buried Charmaine's body. But before he did, he cut off her fingers and her toes. His thing. Just as he had done before and would do many times. again. So Rose had concocted a story to tell Anna Marie what happened to her sister. But then you have to

figure in Renna, right? The girl's mother, she was still coming back to the UK from time to time to see them, to check in on them. How are they going to handle this situation? And the answer came in the fall of 1971 when Renna came to visit. Fred's solution to the problem was to strangle Renna to death. He then dismembered her body, cut off her fingers and toes, and put most of her body parts into bags. And he buried Renna in a similar area near the same location where he buried Anna McFaal's body four years earlier. I looked around everywhere, try and find a knife for a summit. I mean, I looked at the axe. I had a chopped axe, chock, and I mean, I could have no way I could touch it,

to touch her with it, not that case or with anything like that. I just couldn't do it. So I looked up and I see this knife sticking out. It got like two prongs on the end, too sharp points it comes out on the end of him, and then it got big serrated edges all along it. You saw blocks of ice sweat and I got that and I tried it with the big ones first and It was terrible man. It was sweating and I'm just about everything going on this time So I finally managed to do do it to take red off and then her legs

That was Unbearable. I mean I can hear that now in my sleep. I wake up very often screaming and I can hear of them. I'll wake up very often screaming and I can hear them that go in So that's Fred. Right. Talking, obviously, years later. Now, I have to make an admission, Gibbs. I don't know for a fact exactly who he's talking about. But in this episode, I wanted to make sure that we had some good audio of both Fred and Rose.

And we do. And I thought this was a good place to play it. But I'm not 100% sure he's talking about Renna. But it doesn't change the fact to me that, I don't know. There's something about. hearing these killers talk about, in their own words, dismembering bodies and how they went about doing it. You know, like you and I have said before, a lot of times it's very matter of fact.

Right. Now, he does express some things in some of these clips about, oh, it was hard or I can't, you know, I couldn't believe it. But as we'll come to find out, and you can probably, it's probably not that hard of a thing to guess. Fred's not always truthful, right, on these tapes. So keep that in mind as well. So now, Fred has killed three. Rose has killed one. They're not even married yet, but they get married in Gloucester in January, 1972. And that's the other thing. They haven't killed together, right? They are, they are a serial killer couple. What they are most known for are the murders

that they allegedly committed together. We haven't even got to those yet. But after they got married, their second daughter that they named May was born on June 1st of the same year. Gibbs, we've got to talk about this marriage. This marriage is not going to be the typical...

Not even close. Leave it to Beaver, Pleasantville marriage. Right. Not even close, man. Not even close. murdering people together would not be the only strange thing about their marriage. You know, we talked a lot in episode one about Fred's sexual appetite. We talked a little bit about roses as well. But now you have these two coming together.

They're married. The combined union of Fred and Rose would lead not only to more murders, but some very strange, sadistic and horrifying sexual. things and experiences as well. Rose was selling her body for money pretty early on in the relationship. Right. But she also had both men and women over to the house for non-monetary sexual encounters. So it wasn't all about money. And Fred wasn't left out of this. He actually encouraged Rose in all of these types of behaviors. He was a voyeur. He liked to watch. her engage in sexual acts with both men and women.

Again, go back to episode one. We talked about his upbringing and specifically about the things that he experienced sexually from a very young age. And everything you read about Fred West talks about the fact that Gibbs, he just wasn't into what I say most of us, what a lot of people would think as traditional sex. Yeah. He was always looking for the outer limits. Yeah, like Twilight Zone outer limits.

Yeah, like even farther. Like Black Mirror? He was into, you know, bondage and voyeurism, stuff that on its own, it's not criminal. It's not bad. To you bring the animals in? He's going to go way farther, though. I guess the point I'm trying to get across, he just wasn't satisfied with legal. sexual outlets, I guess is the best way to put it.

Yeah. He had to push the border or the boundary so far. Very extreme. That it crossed into the criminal side. He would take pictures of Rose while she was engaged in these sexual acts and even took pictures of her by herself and he would put them in Swinger magazines. Really? Essentially placing an ad.

Just trying to bait somebody. for other people to come have sex with his wife. Some guys like to watch other guys be with their woman. Yeah. No, I get that. I get that. And I want to make sure that I'm clear on this. A lot of this stuff is maybe not everyone's cup of tea,

but there's nothing wrong with it. Right? When you look at from a criminal or you're not breaking any rules. You're not breaking any laws by doing some of this stuff that we're talking about. Yeah. I mean, yeah. But we're going to get into it. Municipality type of laws, you know.

Not messing the power. What are you saying? It's against the law in certain municipalities to watch your wife have sex with another man? I think there's a lot of like old laws on the books that you can't do certain things, you know? I know there's laws like you can't park a whale on the street on Sunday. Like seriously strange laws that make no sense. Yeah. I don't know if there's any laws about watching your wife with another man, though.

Well, and then you got, you know, just. the big man upstairs. I think that's where you get into morality, and that line is different for everyone, right? Everybody has a different line of morality. Yeah. You know, what you do behind your closed doors, as long as it's not involving anything sick or illegal,

then do it. That's what I keep telling you, stay out of my business. Well, you know, the furry suit outfit was enough to scare me back. Oh, my goodness. But now, as we're going to get into, I will say that I don't believe all this sexual activity was consensual. A lot of it might have started out that way, right? An ad that brought somebody to the house.

But I believe, and from the research, that a lot of this sex centered around bondage, dominance, and pain. And that can be consensual in a lot of people's lives or in their eyes. But again, from the research, it appears that Fred and Rose, really pushed the envelope with many of these sexual partners, took them past the limits of what they were probably comfortable with. So when I talk about pain, I think they enjoyed inflicting pain once they had somebody in a position where they couldn't do anything about it.

Yeah. So what started out as a, you know, a consensual act, I think a lot of times crossed the line, even when when nobody died. I guess that's what I was trying to get to. Sure. But they also crossed the line, no doubt, into criminal behavior by cruising for and picking up women who they later drugged and raped together.

Yeah. So that, I mean, obviously that's way past the line. That's illegal. Oh, absolutely it is. Now, also in that same year of 1972, they moved into the house at 25 Cromwell Street that would later become. infamous. You know, after all these sorted details came out about everything that happened there in that house, this is the house that would be known as the house of horrors. It was a pretty big house. It was big enough that they could rent out rooms to people to help make a little extra money.

But one thing Fred did is he made sure that some of the areas were off limit to the lodgers, right? the people that they took in that were renting rooms and staying there. And there was one room in particular that was specifically carved out for Rose to entertain clients in. And even the kids knew this was a room that you did not enter. In one article I read, they even had a red light outside, almost like you would have in a recording studio. Yeah, or like a photo lab. Yeah. When the red light was on, you better.

not open that door. Yeah. Stay away. And again, even in the new house, right, Fred made peep holes so that he could continue his voyeurism. That was a big thing with him. He was a watcher. He was a watcher. He was also a participant. Yeah, a doer. A doer, but he was definitely a watcher. But it was really in the cellar where Fred created what he called his torture chamber. And it would be in late 1972, to, right, they hadn't even lived there that long that Fred and Rose sexually assaulted their first victim in the torture chamber. But it's the victim.

They chose Fred's own daughter, Anna Marie, that he had with his previous wife, Renna. Yeah. She was only eight years old. Sick, man. And that's where I get into the area of, you know, everything that they did has some level of sickness to it. But when you're talking about a father violating his own daughter, that's sick, man. That's where, you know, to me, I get into the area of unspeakable, right? It just, you cannot fathom how someone can do that. You know, they made this girl in

dress. They gagged her, tied her hands behind her back. She was thrown on a mattress that Fred had put down in the cellar, and then he raped his own daughter while Rose held her down. Yeah. So they are in this together. Participants. There's no doubt about it. There's going to be doubt later on down the road about who did what, but only because, in my mind, nobody wanted to admit to the heinous things that they had really done.

Right. Sure. So I said unspeakable, Gibbs, but I guess maybe it's also unthinkable. You know, makes you sick to your stomach to be victimized by your father. The one person in Anna Marie's case, right, her mom is gone. Right. Yeah. The one person in the world that should have been there to protect her.

Yeah. Is actually hurting her. It's something I'll never understand. But sadly, this would not be a one-time thing. Never is. I know. This would happen to Anna Marie repeated. throughout the years, and Fred and Rose threatened her with her life if she ever told anyone about it.

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plus chat and text with your therapist. And this service is available on desktop, mobile web, Android, and iOS apps. But best of all, it's a truly affordable option. and TCAT listeners can get 10% off your first month with our discount code T-Cat at BetterHelp.com slash T-Kat. So why not get started today? Go to betterhelp.com slash T-Kat. That's BetterHelp.com slash T-Cat. In late 1972, Fred and Rose engaged 17-year-old Caroline Owens as a nanny. Caroline was described as extremely attractive. And apparently both Fred and Rose lusted after her. Because it's one thing that I definitely want to make clear. Rose spent time with both men and women.

She liked both men and women. There's no doubt about that. You know, the pair made several attempts at sexual advances towards Caroline. But she wasn't having it. And if you saw the pictures that we put out for part one of the episode, I don't know who would be having it. Yeah. Voluntarily.

That's for sure. I mean, Fred looks like he fell down the ugly tree and hit every damn branch on the way down. Every single one. He is not a looker by any stretch of the imagination. He's no gibby. Let's put it that way. I'm not taking that bait, man. I was leading you into something there.

I was just wanting to see what you would say. I ain't taking that bait. But it's the truth, right? He's not a good looking man. he's not a Ted Bundy. He's not someone that's, now it was said he was a charmer, but he must have been one hell of a charmer

because he was not a looker. So Caroline's not having it, and she announces that she's going to leave. Right, she's not going to live there. She's not going to be their nanny. She's tired of them coming on to them all the time. But Fred and Rose, they weren't going to give up on Caroline.

After she left, they drove up alongside her in their car. They apologized, said they'd never do it again. They were sorry. They wanted to give her a lift home. And Caroline accepted the lift, but this was a trick. Because as soon as she got in the car,

they had her. They had her. Fred knocked her unconscious and then rose bound and gagged her. And once they got her back to the Cromwell Street House, they held her against her will, stripped her naked, and they raped her. And Fred threatened her. that if she didn't go along with what they wanted to do,

he would bring in a group of his friends to have their way with her. She was also threatened that if she told anyone, they would kill her and bury her. Powerful words to use on somebody that age. Especially when you're being held captive and you're being sexually assaulted. Yeah, I would probably believe that what you're threatening me with is true. If you're willing to go to these lengths, not much of a stretch to say you're willing to go a little bit further.

Yeah. But what's almost unbelievable is after they did this to Caroline, they tried to talk her into resuming her nanny job. By the way, we still need you to do the nanny job. Right. Would you mind staying looking after the kids after we've knocked you out, kidnapped you, sexually abused you, right. And threatened your life. Yeah.

In whose world does that make any ounce of sense? Well, nobody's, but theirs. Except for Fred and Rose. It obviously didn't make sense to Caroline because she got to hell out and was able to make her way home. And when she got home, she was scared. She believed in the threats that Rose and Fred had made. She didn't really want to tell anybody about what happened to her, but her mom saw it.

You know, she saw the bruises. She saw what shape Caroline was. in the cuts and she eventually called and reported the west to police and police filed charges against them but unbelievably despite fred's pretty extensive criminal record he was able to convince a court magistrate in 1973 that caroline owens had consented to everything that happened to her and this is always going to be fred's thing right you heard it in the very first clip we played in part one, right? Nobody, you know, didn't set out to hurt anybody. Everybody was having fun and things got out of hand. I think is kind of exactly what he said. Now, part of this was that

Caroline was extremely traumatized and who wouldn't be? I think anybody would be for sure. Having gone through what she went through, I mean, number one, it's a wonder she survived, knowing what we're getting ready to get into and knowing that most didn't. So bottom line, Gibbs, I just think she was so traumatized over what she went through that ultimately she didn't want to testify. And because of that, the Wests were let off.

I think they got a small fine. So the couple had committed what is widely considered to be their first abduction together. Next, they would commit their first murder together. The first victim of the pair would be somebody they already knew. Of course. 19 year old Linda Gough. All right.

Gough moved into the West home in April of 1973, just a couple months before I was born. But she would never make it out of that house alive. In fact, they murdered her within just a day or two of her arriving at the house. And there's no doubt this was a sexually motivated. killing. It was depraved. It was sadistic. And we're going to see that a lot. You know, the murders that they commit, most of them are sexually motivated. Fred buried Linda's body at the house, but not before removing her fingers, her toes. And this time, her kneecaps. Her kneecaps. You want at the, uh, what did kneecaps? I have no idea. Okay. Well, that's different. But there were other people

staying at the house, right? They had other lodgers and the West had to tell them that they kicked Gough out for bad behavior. I think it had something to do with her not being nice to the children or being mean to the children is what they were telling everybody. Right. But Gough was different than some. She had family and specifically it was her mother that came to the house looking for her and she ended up talking to Rose West. Rose told her the same story about her daughter being kicked out of the house. But incredibly, and this blows my mind, Gibbs. When Rose was talking to Linda's mother, she was wearing some of Linda's clothing and shoes.

And this is something that her mother took note of. Why in the hell would you do that? I don't know. That's strange. Well, let's hear Fred talk about it. Yeah, let's hear that. She said, what about Linda Goff? I said, you bitch.

Once ever she said that, I realized that I thought, fuck me, she'd killed her and had her fucking clothes on. She's wearing the girl's shoes, and she killed her, my fuck sake. And her dressing gown. How fucking far can you go? You know, I think you wore her fucking clothes after you killed her. She said, I washed it. She said, I'm fucking hell.

What are you? She said I washed it. Yeah. Like that makes it okay. They're clean. I cleaned them up. But the other thing to take note of in that clip, because it's going to be a theme in a lot of what you hear from Fred is you don't hear him talking about him doing anything, right?

He's saying Rose has killed her. Yeah. And now she's wearing her clothes. You're going to hear that a lot. He deflects to her a lot. Yep. Now, one thing to mention, during the abduction and sexual assault of Caroline Owens and the murder of Linda Gough, Rose was pregnant with the couple's first son, Stephen, who was born later that year in August. So not only is she doing some very sick, twisted stuff, she's doing it while pregnant.

The couple's next victim was 15-year-old Carol Ann Cooper. Cooper was living at the Pine's Children Home when she disappeared on November 10th, 1973. She'd gone to visit her grandmother for the weekend, and she spent that Saturday afternoon taking in a movie with her boyfriend. After the movie, her boyfriend watched her as she boarded a bus. He says it was around 9.30 p.m. That was set to take her back towards her.

her grandmother's house. But she never made it. Much like he is suspected of abducting Mary Bastholm, like we talked about in episode one, it's thought that Fred abducted Cooper from the bus stop. She was bound, gagged, tortured, and raped by the West's inside their house. And Fred did something else sadistic with some of the victims, including Cooper, which is that he hung her from the wooden beams that ran along the ceiling in the cellar. Right. So all this bad stuff is happening in the cellar. You've got these wooden cross beams, right?

Right. And I don't mean he hung her as in he killed her that way. I mean, he kept her hanging as well as other victims, just hanging there until the couple was ready to victimize them. Can't even imagine that, man. No. You know something bad is going to happen and you can't do anything but hang there.

Yeah. And wait to see what's coming next. And then once they were finished with the torture and the rape, Carol Ann was strangled. Her body was dismembered and buried right there in the cellar. So during this period of time, Gibbs, things are happening very quickly. It was just over a month later the couple abducted 21-year-old Lucy Partington. Partington was a third-year student at Exeter University. And she left a friend's house about 10 p.m. on December 27, 1973, to catch a bus home.

But she was abducted before she ever got on that bus. She was tortured and sexually assaulted by Fred and Rose for what may have been as long as a week. before they killed her. Then they dismembered her and they buried her body. So if you look at that timeline in 1973, they killed quite a number of women in a short period of time. Yeah, I'll say very short period of time. Because they wouldn't strike again until April of 1974.

It was April 16th. They abducted 21-year-old community college student, Therese Siegenthallor, and she died in a very similar fact. to Cooper and Partington. Later that year in November, they carried out a very similar abduction and murder of 15-year-old Shirley Hubbard. So there were a series of women and girls here over this stretch of time that the West went out

hunting for, right? They didn't know per se these girls or these women. Just random. They were out trolling. They were out hunting. But that wouldn't always be the kids. case. But they all ended up back at 25 Cromwell Street, never to leave, buried in the cellar of the house. When Shirley's body was discovered much later on, right? After everything comes down

on Fred and Rose, which we're going to get into, they found that her entire head was wrapped with tape and there was a small plastic tube inserted into her nose so she could breathe. I don't even know what they were doing. Just keeping her alive, bowing it up like that or what? I don't know if they buried her alive. I mean, no matter what,

these people were sick. Extremely, man. There's no doubt about that. Disturbing. The next year in April of 1975, the couple murdered Juanita Maat, who at the time lived in Newent, about 12 miles from Gloucester.

But at one time, she had stayed at the Cromwell house. So they knew her. After she was about, abducted by the West and they got her back to the house. They gagged her and they tied her up in a very intricate fashion. It was said that they used so much rope that she wouldn't have been able to move at all. It was described as almost like being hogtied, but with it going around her head and just being

wrapped like in as many ways as you can think. Yeah. She would have been almost essentially immobilized. Some of the same type of rope was also used to suspend her from the beam in the cellar. But sadly, she eventually met the same fate as the other victims. And then the West apparently took a three-year break, at least for murder. Now, we don't know that for sure. But as far as documented murders go...

It looks like they took a break. It looks like they took a three-year break. But it didn't stop Fred from continuing to steal. And a lot of his theft was... so that he could finance the many home improvement projects he was always working on. Because you got to think about it. It would take a lot of work to cover up the number of victims that they murdered and buried inside their house.

So he's constantly doing what he called home improvement projects, whether it was pouring concrete over areas where he had buried bodies. He was doing all kinds of stuff. So he needed money for that. But they didn't take a break from sexually assaulting women and girls. They continued doing this over the years. What also continued was the sexual abuse perpetrated by Fred against his daughter, Anna Marie. There are accounts that he even impregnated his daughter, but the pregnancy was terminated.

Man, thank goodness for her. It's rough. And we're going to talk about it later. Anna Marie is going to come up later. You just think about the life that this girl was exposed to and the trauma and the pain. When Anna Marie moved out of the house later on down the road, Fred began sexually abusing his other daughters, Heather and May. And we might as well Gibbs talk about this now, the other children, even though it will be out of chronological order. they had, the West, had more children. You know, Tara was born in 1977,

Louise in 78, Barry was born in 1980. Keeps going. Rosemary Jr. in 1982. And their last child, Luciana was born in 1983. It's a lot of children. It's a baby making farm there.

Now, I think what helps explain the number is that not all these children were fret. And the way that they know that, is because not all the children had the same skin color. Ah. It wasn't that hard to tell that it wasn't his. That some of these were not his children. Yeah.

Because remember, during this entire time, Rose is having sex with a lot of men, some for money, and some of the children are believed to have come from some of that activity. And the reason I thought it made sense to bring it up now is because I believe it ties in with their next murder. That of 18-year-old Shirley Robinson.

Shirley was a lodger at the Cromwell Street home. And she had sexual relationships with both Fred and Rose during her stay, you know, at the house, but at one point she became pregnant with Fred's baby. And that was something

that I don't believe Rose could live with. Even though I just talked about it. She had carried and delivered multiple children that were proven to not have been Fred's. True. Absolutely true. But she couldn't handle the fact that someone else was carrying Fred's baby.

No. Couldn't handle it. So they murdered Shirley and Fred's unborn child. But this murder was different. In no way was it sexually motivated like the others had been. You know, it's believed that Shirley was murdered because of roses. jealousy. That simple, huh? That's simple. Surely and the unborn child were buried in the garden out behind the house because by this time, and I talked about Fred's home improvements, he had poured

concrete in the cellar to cover where he had buried the previous victims. There's only so much room in that cellar in that cellar where you can bury bodies. Bodies and he's already got a good amount there already. Yeah, he's got quite a number in there. But he even turned part of the cellar into bedrooms for the kids. Oh. So they can play with the skeletal remains? I mean, imagine that. These kids sleeping on top of their parents' murder victims.

Yeah. Wow. And it's one thing we probably won't have time to get into a lot in this episode, but how much did the kids know, right? It is very hard to hide the, a lot of the things that Fred and Rose were doing. it's generally accepted that the kids knew quite a bit. We'll talk about it a little bit, but we won't get into it, you know, super in depth.

When authorities ultimately exhumed Shirley's body later on, unlike the other victims, she wasn't bound. So that's where you get into this theory that the murder was a little different. Right. It didn't have anything to do with sex. She wasn't tied up. It was just a murder. Rose wanted her dead because she was jealous.

Jealous. Jealousy, jealousy, man. It always ruins everything. The West's next victim, 16-year-old Allison Chambers, would be their last victim that is thought to have been sexually motivated. So most of them were, right? Most of the victims that we've talked about had something to do with sex. Right. On the part of both, Fred and Rose. They both participated. Chambers was another live-in nanny, hired by the. the West in 1979. But it's thought that within a week of her arrival, she was tortured, raped, murdered,

and buried in the garden. And then from that point, there are no known murders for about an eight-year period after Allison Chambers, which is a long time. It's a huge amount of time. For people like this that have been committing quite a few murders, you know, over the last couple of years to take. an eight year hiatus. Now, we're going to talk about, is that true?

Is that not true? What I'm saying eight years based on what is known. Right. But what didn't stop during this period was Fred's sexual interest in his own daughters. It talked about Anna Marie moving out. She moved out to go live with her boyfriend. And that's when he switched his attention to the younger girls, Heather and Right.

It would come out later that Fred would tell the girls things like, I made you. I can do whatever I want with you. And it just reminds me so much of like kind of us telling his background in part one. I mean, his own dad told him, right? Take whatever you want.

Want. Yep. That's what he learned. The sexual abuse, Fred perpetrated on these two girls, it got worse. The older they got. But it was Heather that,

that resisted her father every chance she got. And in 1987, she made the decision to tell one of her friends about what was going on inside the house. And Fred and Rose responded by murdering and dismembering her, their own daughter, right? This is not Rose murdering Wrenna's daughter. This is her own flesh and blood. This is both of theirs. Yeah. They buried her in the back garden.

And Fred somehow got his son, Stephen, to dig the hole for Heather's grave. Now, Stephen had no idea what he was digging it for. What his dad told him was that they were going to put in a fish pond. So Stephen dug this hole. Fred dismembered his daughter's body, buried it in the hole, and then later put paving slabs over it. As part of a patio extension, it made it look like an extension onto an existing patio. And I can remember taking a breath and swallowing it.

And I said, what the flamen all do you mean? She said, others out there. I said, what do you mean either is out there? She said, yeah, Heather is buried out there. I said, look, you'll have to tell me exactly what happened. She said that, um, Heather was cut up. well, I never felt so ill in all my life for a few seconds, a few minutes before I could get grip of myself again.

And I said, what on earth did you cut her up for? She said she wouldn't fit in a dustbin. And the thing that makes it hard, that she cut out and shook her in a fucking dustbin, our daughter. So there's Fred, essentially saying he didn't know anything about it. Right. Blaming Rose. Blaming Rose. Rose. Rose killed her. Rose cut her up. And you even hear him give what sounded like a sniffle.

Like he was extremely choked up there, right, Gibbs? Exactly. About what happened. He was trying to play it off. So after Rose and Fred murdered Heather, May came home from school. And Fred told her that Heather had got a job at a holiday camp and had gone there to work. Right. You got to explain why your, your dog. May's sister is not going to be around. Yeah, where'd she go? She got a job. Yeah, she got a job. She won't be back. She'll sit money home now and then.

But in the years after Heather's murder, Fred would threaten the other children. And a lot of times he would play it off like it was a joke, but he would say, you know, if you don't straighten up, if you don't act right, I'm going to bury you under the patio like Heather. So I think when you hear that, the facade of. Heather's got a job at a camp or whatever it is, kind of goes out the window at some point. Going to change your attitude. For years, the West would tell people all types of different reasons

for why Heather was no longer around. Later on, Fred was very quick to blame Rose for everything. One body fully clothed, or I thought at the first day, but not by now I know he's cut up, so I'm going to have to make it think out why the bloody hell that I cut her up. I mean, what reason for that? Did I cut this girl up? That's why I said, well, at least it's only one.

I said, so, you know, I mean, you could accidentally kill one, but I mean, you wouldn't get away with accident and killing two, like sort of thing. That's the thought I was going through with mind, mind like. So I said, well, is that it? Oh, no, she said, I don't know, it was seven or eight, nine. So anyway, Rose told me where the ones in the basement was. I said to Rose, I said, well, fuck me, they had done bad, have it? I said, you know, you're going to fuck enough you're on you.

So now he's saying he didn't know anything about the 6, 7, 8, 9. Wasn't him. Wasn't there. Don't know. Rose did everything. She tied, she abducted these women. She tied them up. She sexually assaulted them all by herself.

She murdered them. She dismembered them. And she buried them. It's all her. Yeah. Which we know is not true. No, we know. But they had, I don't know.

if it was equal parts, but they played a part, both of them, in most of the murders, right? We know there was some that Fred committed on his own. We know that there was at least one, if not more, that Rose committed on her own, but the majority of the murders, they committed as a team. So that was 1987. Yeah. They had gone a long stretch between murders, right? Eight years. And they would go another stretch, right, with no known murders. Part of that, I think, is that I'm thinking Gibbs, they had to realize that, number one, Heather did tell somebody. Yeah.

Outside of the family about certain things that were going on. So, you know what? We better keep a low profile. Some of our secrets, they may not have known how many secrets were revealed. So they didn't murder. But what didn't stop was Rose's side. sex work. She continued to build up her business during this time period.

Okay. They had additional lodgers at the home. They had more nannies. But apparently they didn't kill any of these women or at least the murders never came to light. And we'll talk later on, right? Is the number that is put out there for the West the real number? Most people think it's not.

And you and I talk about this on a lot of cases. Most people think it's much higher. But they did continue to sexually assault females during this period. And it would be one of these sexual assaults that would lead the police to the West. Because this time other people found out and eventually landed in the hands of a badass detective constable named Hazel Savage. And Savage interviewed some of the West children and learned a lot about the activities that had gone on over the years in that house, Rosemary was interviewed about Heather's disappearance.

And she told the police that Heather left after a fight that they got into. But she was fine and that she'd actually been in contact with her, talked with her over the phone from time to time, which we know is a lie, because Heather is buried underneath the patio. In August of 1992, police got a warrant to search the West House and they found a lot of stuff. You know, they found all of their bondage material.

They found a lot of pornography. And they found some other evidence. And it was enough evidence regarding, you know, the alleged child abuses that had gone on to arrest both Fred and Rose. They charged them with child abuse, rape. and one charge of buggery. And I actually had to look that one up, Gibbs. Buggery. It apparently is a British term.

Sure. That is closely aligned with sodomy. I don't know if it means it exactly, but it's closely aligned with it. It essentially means something similar. Now, Rose got out on bail, but Fred did not. And Anna Marie eventually came forward to make a statement detailing out all the abuses she had suffered over the years at the hands of Fred and Rose. May was also interviewed, but she was reluctant to talk.

She didn't want to, I think, get her parents in trouble. Most likely she was probably scared to death that, I'm assuming, all the kids were. They had been threatened so many times. By this point, they probably knew that their parents killed their sister Heather. they'd been told multiple times that they would end up under the patio with Heather. So May wouldn't say anything. And then eventually the case against Fred and Rose kind of fell apart because Anna Marie withdrew her statement.

I think in large part because she was deathly afraid of Rose. What would Rose do? If they don't get convicted, Rose is going to kill her. Yeah. You know, that's probably what is going through her head. I can't speak for her, obviously. I can only speculate. But with everything that she went through, I don't think she would be out of line to be scared of that.

But ultimately, Fred and Rose were acquitted of all charges. There just wasn't enough evidence to move forward. But the acquittal didn't stop Hazel Savage, right? This badass detective. Right. Who continued to look into the missing girls, the missing women. over the years in the Gloucester area, police tried to find any evidence that Heather was alive, but they couldn't.

And they couldn't find any trace of her. And they began to think, you know, this rumor that they had heard about Heather being buried under the patio was true, right? Because the kids had told them that that's what their parents had told them. The police start thinking, you know what? This could be true. and they started looking into Rena and Charmaine as well. And they became extremely suspicious Gibbs when they found out that no missing person report was ever filed, right?

Renna goes missing, no report. They can't find Charmaine. Nobody's ever made a report about her being missing. That's suspicious. And we have to hear from Rose. We've heard from Fred a couple of times. We've got to hear from Rose here in a. taped conversation that she had with her daughter, May.

Yeah. So Rose sounds about exactly like I expected Rose to sound. A little hard to understand. I don't know how much of that is the audio and how much of that is just the way that she talked. She was kind of shrill, kind of very high pitched. Yeah, I noticed that. Yeah.

But if you couldn't understand it, basically what she's saying is she said the F word about six times. She's saying that Fred effing killed Heather is what she's telling May. She's saying that Fred is sick. So as much as Fred tried to put the blame on Rose, she's turning around and doing it to him. Now, it would take a while. It would take a while, but police finally got a warrant to start digging at the Cromwell Street House.

And they showed up with it on February 24th, 1994. Roos ran me at work in the midday, the middle of the day, and said the police was digging the garden up, come home quick. So anyway, I got home. Anyway, he was happy to come and I went down a police station. I mean, I had nothing to bloody hide. I got nothing to bloody hide. Nothing. Nada.

Really? I think Fred West shit his drawers when he got a phone call that said the police are digging in the garden. Well, for sure. He sounds pretty cool, calm, and collected there, but I guarantee you when he heard about it, his ass tighten up. Yeah. Things got real tight, real fast. Now, the search for bodies would last 114 days over five different sites.

And it was said that they moved thousands and thousands of tons of earth during, you know, the excavation. In the end, they found nine bodies at 25. Cromwell Street. They found one body at the West's previous home on Midland Road and two bodies in fields between much Markle and Kemply. Now here's where things get squirly for me. There's a lot of audio of Fred essentially saying he didn't know about any of this and he's laying the blame on Rose. But when it came down to it and he was interviewed by police, eventually he took the blame for it all. to try and help save Rose. He confessed to murdering Heather and the others.

And he even Gibbs helped police find the bodies. Wow. He even told them about the bodies in the cellar that he had poured concrete over. They didn't even know about it. Because I don't know if they would have ever known about them. He didn't even have to tell them. And he just came out and told them. He's just a good guy.

Yeah. Yeah. He's just trying to be helpful. I hate those people that. Do bad things, say nasty things to people, and they try to be good guys everywhere else. I know. I hate that when you do it. Oh, yeah?

No, I'm just kidding. But he did, right? Told him about the five bodies buried in the cellar. Yeah. He even told him there was another body that was now underneath a ground floor bathroom, right? Part of his home improvement projects was to cover up one of the bodies with a bathroom. the first thing that come into my mind was I'm going to have to take this

and sort it out which I did all the messes Rose got herself into I took the looking rap for him and out to him out of it but dare you hear him say yeah I'm going to have to take the rap for everything that Rose did but he did

I mean to his to his word he did that but he's still trying to say that he didn't have anything to do with it he's taking the rap to save her But like I mentioned, there were other recordings. I don't have them. I couldn't find them where Fred did take the blame, right, to police.

Even saying in one that Rose was out of the house when certain murders were committed. But police didn't believe him because of all the information that they already had. And both Fred and Rose were arrested. Detectives and forensic specialists began digging in the back garden of a house. in Cromwell Street in Gloucester City Centre after being granted a search warrant by city magistrates. They're looking for the remains of a 16-year-old girl

Heather West, who disappeared from the house in 1986 or 87. Police arrested the girl's parents and they're being questioned about Heather's disappearance. The couple of Frederick West, who's 52 and a builder, and his wife, Rosemary, who's 45.

They were taken from the house at lunchtime. So ultimately Gibbs, Fred was charged with 12 murders and Rose was charged with 10. But they were each also charged with numerous counts of rape and, you know, other crimes. And then they had their initial court appearance. And this was the first time in quite a while that they had seen each other. And by this time, Rose had distanced herself from Fred. Because I think she was totally fine with him taking the fall for the murders. If it helped her get away, get out of it. Right. So apparently.

Apparently, in court, she ignored him, wouldn't acknowledge him, wouldn't look at him. And this really depressed Fred, because I think he felt like he was going out of his way to try to save her. And she was cutting and running on him. And it was on January 1st, 1995, just before noon that Fred hanged himself with bed sheets in his cell while awaiting trial. So Fred never, never faced a jury, never saw the inside of the courtroom for the actual trial. And apparently he left the note and it was just a bunch of gushy stuff about that he would see Rose again. They would be reunited. So he's not going to go on trial, but Rose is.

Her trial started October 3rd, 1995. And the prosecution started by laying out a massive amount of circumstantial. evidence that they had against Rose. And this time, unlike the previous time that they were arrested, Anna Marie was a key witness in this trial. And she spilled all the terrible secrets of Fred and Rosemary West. During testimony, she detailed out how her father and others that he had allowed to had raped her over the years.

And Gibbs, she estimated that it had been over. well over 300 times. Wow. It's rough. It's sickening. So not only is your father abusing you, he's allowing his friends and others to do it. The prosecution brought up the fact that the West never made any attempts to contact the authorities after Heather disappeared. And they said there's only one reason for that because they killed her. They knew she wasn't missing. There was no reason to report that she was, they knew exactly where she was. Caroline Owens testified, you know, she had survived the West and testified about just how sadistic Rose West could be and was with her. Another witness, Janet Leach, testified that Fred told her Rose was involved in the

murders and that she had even murdered Charmaine and Shirley Robinson. and without him. But Rose's defense focused on the fact that there was very little evidence directly linking her to any of the murder. They said that Rose may have been sexually immoral. She may have been cruel, but that didn't mean that she committed any of the murder. So they're probably going to toss up her childhood. You know, this is typical defense.

And they did, right? They brought up her terrible childhood, talked about the fact that, You know, she stayed with Fred even though he was doing these terrible things because of her childhood. And this is the only family she had. This is the only thing she knew. As you said, just typical defense tactics, right? They've got to try to pull some things out of their bag of tricks. The defense also pointed out the fact that Fred had taken the blame for the murders on tape.

But the prosecution was able to point out inconsistencies in. Fred's statements on these tapes and they pointed out to the jury which I think greatly helped diminish the impact of the tapes right yeah he's taking credit for the murders on these tapes but here's where he's got facts wrong here's where he's got here's where he got this wrong is he really telling the truth about what happened and then the defense had to try to spend the statements that Rose made to police about the disappearance of Heather. Right? She had lied. So clearly.

Numerous times to police about knowing where Heather was, having talked to Heather on the phone. And the way they spun it was that she was ashamed. Rose was ashamed that she had not been able to keep in touch with Heather. So she lied to them so that she wouldn't look so bad. So he's worried about that, huh? Oh, she's worried about that. And they also tried to counter the testimony of Anna Marie and Caroline Owens by telling the jury that both women had received money from the media for their story. And they did.

That is true. Some of the witnesses had received money from media outlets to later on tell their side of the story. But the defense spun it as if it was in their best interest to sensationalize their testimony. Because that would make more money. More money for them when they got with these news outlets later on. But I think the defense made a big mistake in this case because they had Rose take to stand. And, you know, this is something that you and I go back and forth with. We've argued about this before.

Yeah, we have. Is it right? Is it wrong? In this case, I think it was very wrong for them to try this tactic because she wasn't, she wasn't a good witness. I can't imagine anything coming out. Her mouth would be good to say at trial. No, her anger came through loud and clear on the stand. She couldn't suppress it, right? You've, you've been in depositions. I've been in depositions. I've testified on the stand when you get cross-examined. They can come after you pretty hard. And they're doing that for a reason.

They're trying to rattle you. They're trying to, in a lot of cases, you know, tripping. You know, you up, well, she got ticked. Yeah. Right? They pushed her buttons to the point where she got mad on the stand and it came out to the jury. You know, I think the, the prosecution was able to play on her anger and get her to say things that she probably wished she hadn't have said. Showed her true colors.

Yeah. And I think the jury saw her true colors and they, they were able to say to themselves, man, this, this woman's angry. I can see how she could do these things. Do these things. Yes. So the trial wrapped up after a really short deliberation, the jury unanimously found Rosemary West guilty on 10 separate counts of murder on November 22nd, 1995. She was later sentenced to life in prison without parole.

So obviously Gibbs, the jury didn't believe anything she had to say. They didn't believe any of the things that heard. defense put forward. Right. They believed Anna Marie. They believed Caroline Owens. And why wouldn't they? These people lived nightmare.

Nightmare. Through the nightmare that was in this case, Rose West, because Fred's not on trial. He's gone. But Rose always has maintained her innocence. You know, she has not accepted her sentence. She's appealed, you know, every chance that she could get. in some of the appeals, she's claimed that new evidence that would clear her had come to light. She's also claimed that huge media interest in the case prevented her from getting a fair trial.

Of course. But none of these worked. And she remains incarcerated today. And my assumption is she'll be there till the day she dies. Let's hope. Let's hope. Because she was a very bad person. Terrible.

Right. And wrapping up, Gibbs, let's talk about a couple of things that I found interesting. First of all, the home, right? 25 Cromwell Street, dubbed the House of Horrors by the media. It was demolished in October of 1996, which what else are you going to do? Yeah, nobody's going to know. Well, you know what? Other than, you know, people that are into the macabre or something like that,

but you don't want that place standing. as a reminder of what happened there. Not at all. And all the young women and girls that lost their life, you got to just knock that thing down. Absolutely. And they did that. And it was a good thing.

And then I want to talk about after Rose was sentenced, there was an article published in a Hong Kong newspaper. Just nothing special. Just kind of detailing out what happened, you know, the result of the trial. the problem was that there was a picture that accompanied the article and the picture was of a Quebec man named Lucian Bouchard and his wife Audrey and underneath the picture the caption read devoted couple killers Fred and Rosemary West wow always nice to be confused with a

heinous serial killing couple and it turns out that this guy was like some kind of big deal. I mean, I think he was either in government office or running for some type of government office. He wasn't just, you know, Joe Smith off the street. He was kind of even worse, man. Kind of a big deal in Canada. Yeah. And they labeled him, you know, labeled him Fred and his poor wife Audrey is Rosemary. And then you get into talking about May. You know, she revealed years later how she and her sister. played dress up when they were kids with women's clothes that they found in different areas around the house, not realizing, having no way to know at the time that these clothes belonged to

the victims of their mom and dad. Yeah. Wow. She said she was about eight when she and her older sister Heather found the clothes. They started dressing up in them. And I saw a quote from her that said, used to say a father should break his daughters in and the firstborn child of a daughter should be her father's.

Wow, man. Let's say quote from her. She heard this directly from her dad. That's scary. Sick. And she went on to say from age 11 or 12, he used to touch us all the time. If we pushed him away, he would get angry or he would tell them that they were lesbians. I mean, I feel so horrible.

Yeah. This is his thought process for the kids. Yeah. And she wrote a book that talked about her childhood and she said, you know, she never expected her father of killing at least 12 women. Some of them people that she knew, right, lodgers at the house that she lived in. But at the same time, she's told people in interviews that she believes. she believes the number could be as high as 30.

Wow. And that's kind of what I was hinting about earlier. When we talked about that big, long eight-year break, it's very hard for me to believe Gibbs that these monsters stopped. Stopped and went eight whole years. Cold turkey, not doing nothing. Without sadistically torturing and murdering a single woman or girl when they had been doing it so often.

My suspicion is that they committed so many more atrocities than have come to life. And I think the fact is they, if they killed these women, they just didn't bury them in the same sites where they buried the other women or girls. They buried them somewhere else. Nobody has found them so they didn't bring them up. That's my assumption. That's a pretty good assumption. Yeah, I don't think I'm going out on a limb there. No, not at all.

And then one last thing. And this is nothing political. You and I don't get political at all on this show. But it's something that has to be talked about. So in 2014, this is before Donald Trump became president. Someone on the internet tricked him into retweeting a picture of Fred and Rose West. Oh, really? And they did this by.

So the original tweet to him said, my parents who passed away always said you were a big inspiration. Can you please retweet for their memory? And the picture that he was asking Donald Trump to retweet was Fred and Rosemary West. Oh my God. And he did it. Yeah. He didn't know who it was.

And he retweeted it. Again, not political. I just, how can you not talk about that? Whether it was Donald Trump or any other big selection. Retweeting something like that. Retweeting, getting tricked into retweeting a picture of what is, you know, one of the most vile persons. Serial killer couples in history. Yeah. But that's it. That's the end of our two-parter on Fred and Rosemary West. Yeah. What a good case, good story, but sick.

It is sick. And the details are, you know, they are what they are. Yeah. These people did these things. I'm always quieter when on these ones because it's hard to, you know, it's just hard to take. Well, the subject matter is so serious that, you know, you and I try to find spots where we can lighten the mood with some levity. Right. It's hard to find spots. Yeah, there's no levity.

In a case like this, because it is one thing after another. And everything they did was brutal. horrific. Sick, man. But I go back to, you know, some of what we talked about in episode one. Yeah. Look at their childhood. Look at how they treated women.

Look at how they treated their own daughters. Sure. You know, especially in the case of Fred, that came from his childhood. Yeah. That's what he was a learned behavior. And I think a lot of what Rose was capable or able to do came from her childhood as well. Her childhood was equally jacked up. Yeah, for sure. All right, Gibbs, we've got some voicemails. You want to let's give it a try. You want to hear those? Hi, Mike and Gibby. It's Rachel from

Taylorville, Illinois, which is close to Springfield, Illinois. And I was calling to say, love the show. I am all caught up with the true crime all the time and have recently started listening to the true crime all the time unsolved and I just finished episode 25. You guys do a great job. Love the banter between you two. You guys get me laughing a lot even though, you know, the stories are pretty gruesome and really sad. But I was calling to see, I have a suggestion. I didn't know if you guys were going to cover the West Memphis three. And also, I remember hearing stories about the truck stop killer when I was younger, just hearing adults and the family talking about it. And the guy's name was Robert Ben Rhodes.

I didn't know if you guys were considering doing a episode on him. Anyway, thanks for all the hard work you do and keep your own time ticking. Thanks. All right. We appreciate that voicemail. I think I've talked about it before Gibbs. I can't remember, but I'm pretty sure I have. The West Memphis three case is it's up there for me in terms of fascination around the details and you know, what happened. And then you add the whole layer of, you know, the three being convicted and spending so much time in jail. So I know we will do that uninsolved. And I kind of put it in like a John Bonnet type category. It's so big.

It's so well known. It's going to take multiple episodes. So I don't, I know it won't be this year. It be sometime in 2019 when I have more time. Right. Because, you know,

those type of cases, there are people out there that know almost every detail. I've watched those documentaries. I watched them as a kid. I shouldn't have been watching them as a kid. kid, but I did on HBO. I've probably seen them each eight, ten times. Oh, easily.

Each episode. They've always been fascinating to me, so I know we'll do them. The other one I'll have to look into. The name is familiar. I'll have to see if we have it on our list. Okay. Hi, this is Kimberly. I'm from Gloucester in England. I've just been listening to your latest podcast

and read and Rosemary Wet. I'm just saying I'm really enjoying it. I've loved all the previous shows. I just like so keep on with the good work and keep you in time ticking. Bye. Wow. Actually calling from Gloucester. Gloucester?

So there was a lot of chatter on the internet. Well, it still was. About whether or not we would pronounce Gloucester right. Gloucester. Most people thought I would say gloucestershire. Glashachshah. Which is the way it looks. Yeah.

Gloucestershire. But we did it right. Yeah. I said it right. said it the way she said it. Yeah, I think I'm good. Kudos to you. Hey guys, my name's Will. I'm from southeast Georgia. I'm a truck driver. I recently stumbled across your podcast about a week and a half ago.

I just listened to episode 62 about the murder of Shanda Sherer. And it really struck home because I've got three young girls myself, oldest one being 12. And that was horrible. that was a horrible, I wish I didn't listen to that. But anyhow, I wanted to congratulate you guys on a successful podcast and say to keep up the good work. And I really enjoy it. Stay safe and keep your own time ticking. All right.

Awesome. We love Truckers Gibbs because they have a lot of time to listen to podcasts. Yes. And they do some cool stuff for us too. Yeah. We get a lot of good information from Truckers because we seem to be talking about a lot of truckers. I know when I'm hitching and they pick me up. You ask, that's the first thing you ask, right?

So, hey, you listen to the podcast? They're like, what podcast? I said, true crime all the time. They're like, oh, yeah, get on in. Get on. Now you're scaring me. Hi, Mike and Gibby. This is Renee, calling from Worcester, Massachusetts.

I called you guys maybe like six months ago. Basically, I'm calling about the whole Denny situation. in the Carolyn Wazelouski episode, one of your trucker listeners had called to say that Denny's was in a couple of truck stops and stuff like that out in your area. We don't have any of those truck stops out this way,

but we do have Denny's all over the place, actually, in Massachusetts and basically in New England. And fun fact is the Denny's here in Worcester in 2006, there was a murder, A knight gentleman was trying to assist two women that were being harassed by some other patrons in the restaurant. And they ended up beating him over the head with a chair and then kicked him around. And he ended up dying a few hours later. It was, you know, in the middle of the night.

And there were a bunch of people that were, you know, trying to eat their meal that watched it all happen. Really kind of a sad story. But just figured I'd give you guys that little tidbit and that I really enjoy what you guys are doing. and keep up the good work. Stay safe and keep your own time taking. Thanks. All right. Appreciate that.

We sparked a lot of interest in the Denny's debate. We talked about Waffle House last week. I know. You know, people get really... Getting hungry, man. Yeah, they get hungry when you start talking about it. They've ever seen the Huddl House? The Huddell House is kind of like Waffle House, right?

Yeah. Nobody's called about IHop yet. The Waffle King. I never seen that. Waffle King's really like Waffle House. I haven't heard anybody saying, anything about the broken egg, that's kind of a different type of place. Yeah.

I like that place a lot, too. I just get hungry when we talk about breakfast. Breakfast is my favorite. I am hungry. Biscuits and gravy. Let's get it. Let's do it. You got anything else?

No, is that it? That's it. Oh, well, let's go crack some eggs. Let's crack some eggs. All right. That is it for another episode of True Crime All the Time. So for Mike and Gibby. Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.