True Crime All The Time - Gary Alan Walker

Episode Date: September 17, 2018

Gary Alan Walker murdered 5 people in Oklahoma within a 19-day-period in 1984. Walker had a horrible childhood and was in and out of prison for his entire adult life. He battled mental illness and claimed that his deceased brother talked to him.Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss this lesser known but horrible killer. During his numerous prison stints he was diagnosed with various mental illnesses. Despite numerous escape attempts, he was paroled multiple times. After being caught, Walker would plead insanity, but taped confessions would seal his fate.You can help support the show by going to patreon.com/truecrimeallthetime. We put out episodes on Patreon that can't be found anywhere else.Visit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

and welcome to episode 96 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in True Crime, Mike Gibson, Gibby. How are you today, man? Hey, man. I'm doing good. Hey, man. Hey, man. What's happening? What is happening? I'm going to make a shirt that just says, hey, man. I'm good. I'm good man. I'm going to put the man at the end, too. Okay. You didn't that time. Sometimes. But if I make the shirt, I don't want to be predictable. I'm definitely going to put the man at the beginning and the man at the end. Nobody likes someone predictable. They don't.

So I got to shake it up every now. Got to. Yeah. So how you been? I'm good. I feel good. I'm on vacation this week. So I'm feeling really good.

You haven't shaved? Nope. I got my staycation beard going on. Starting to look like a real biker. It's a little grayer that I would like it to be. Yeah, I was going to say you got a lot of gray there on the side. A lot of gray in the beard. Yeah.

Because I normally have, I haven't let it grow out for a quite a while. Just, just shave your head and grow the beard and be like a real biker. Yeah, scary. Yeah. Get a tattoo. A scary dude. I did have a good bike ride the other night, which was nice. I hadn't ridden the bike in a while. Oh yeah, that's right. You got your bike back. Yep. Had my first service done on it and got it back and went for a ride. Yeah. Did you go like, have your wife ride on back of it or just you? Now, my wife is not a huge fan of riding on the on the bike. When I had my motorcycle the first time, years ago, she rode on it a couple times, got scared, and that was it for that. Right.

Poppin wheelies will do that. Yeah. No, I'm not a pop and willies kind of guy, but I knew she wouldn't be riding very much on the new one. All right, Gibbs. We've got some new Patreon supporter shoutouts to give. We had Mary Van Ravens Way. Hey, Mary Van Ravens Way from Harry Potter. Nadia Hall.

Hey, Medea. Rush Johnson jumped out at our high. highest level. Rush. Nick G. Nick G. Was he in the orange crust with you as Mikey G? We don't talk about it anymore.

No. Sean Spartacus Copeland. Hey, Spartacus. Hercules's here. Carson Holst. Hey, Carson. Petta McConaughey. McConaghy.

Wonder if she plays the drums like he does. I don't know. I don't think it's spelled the same. Yeah. Curely Cole jumped out at her highest level. Thank you. That's a very cool name. It is a cool name.

that, Curely. Curely. Hmm. Tony Macau. Hey, Tony. Roxanne S. Roxanne. You don't have to put on the red light.

That's right. Aaron Anderson. Hey, Aaron. Megan Smith jumped out of her highest level. Thank you, Megan. Lisa. Jis Lisa. Inder Strika.

Ender Strika. Katrina Lamont. Hey, thank you. Greta Garden. Awesome. Allison Ryan. Yeah. Kate Fleming.

Like that? Marion. Just Marion. Mary Sorovsky. Sorosky. Elizabeth Crooks. Thank you. Shasta Scarborough. Yeah. Just a soda. Say soda Scarborough. Say soda Scarborough. Yeah. Jessica Sharp. Hey, Jessica. Stephanie. Stephanie. Stephanie. Jennifer Cook. Thank you, Jennifer.

Kim Hess. Awesome. Sandra Wilcoxon. Will Coxon. Kelly. Lucy Endro Deova. T-O-O-O-O-O- Okay, keep going. Yep. Anna. Hey, Anna. Florence Foodie Club. I like that.

And, you know, I've corresponded with them a little bit. Yes. They really like your Italian accent. Of course, why not? Because they're actually in Florence. Yeah, it's a pretty good accent. I think that they understand that. You just put a in the end of everything.

That's what you do. You said Accenta. Yeah, Accenta. We had Karen. Hey, Karen. Dustin Chillinger. Dustin. Beth Watt.

Hey, Beth. And Joanne Stevens. Thank you. And then if we go back into the Vault Gibbs, let's do it. This week we selected Jen Storms. Hey, Jen. Big, long-time supporter of the show. She blew in and liked it?

It does sound like a meteorologist name. Yeah. Jen Storms here for you. Exactly. Yeah. We might even said that way back in the day. We probably did. She's like, you guys said the same thing back then.

We probably did. And then we had some PayPal support, which we love as well. Oh, we love PayPal. We had Cheryl Matalazzo. Madelazzo. And Deborah Pfeiffer. Hey, Deborah, thank you. So much appreciated for all the support that we get.

Really helps us to continue to put out the podcast. Yeah, it's important. I mean, it's everything. All right, Gibbs. At the same time, this is out, we've got an unsolved episode out. And it's on the Mary Celeste. And this is one that I think people are going to like. Yeah, I mean, it's a good one.

You know, Mary Celeste, it's going back in time a little bit, but it's a mystery. And I mean, I know when I did the research, I've seen some good shows out there about it as well. So, I mean, it's attracted everybody's interest in the history world. Yeah, I think anytime you have a good mystery, people are drawn to that. Yeah. So, yeah, check that out. But in this episode of True Crime All the Time, we're talking about, Gary Allen Walker, who killed five people in Oklahoma during a 19-day period back in 1984.

And I don't know, Gibbs. I've seen him called a serial killer. I've seen him called a spree killer. And it got me thinking. So, you know, I wanted to do a little research. You and I know a little bit about the definitions. But there are quite a number of definitions for a serial killer. You know, if you look at the FBI definition, it's a series of two or more murders committed

as separate events, usually, but not always by one offender acting alone. So by that definition, Gary Allen Walker is a serial killer. But then you look at other definitions and they throw in the cooling period. But they also, some of them throw in the fact that the series must run for longer than a month, which this one really doesn't. It's a 19 day period of time. So maybe, you know, that's why in some places he's called a serial killer, in some places he's not.

Yeah. You know, spree killer by the FBI definition is a person or more than one person who commits two or more murders without a cooling off period. And really, in most definitions, you know, that cooling off period is the difference. I don't know how long the cooling off period needs to be. I've never seen that. Right. You know, this guy goes days, obviously, without killing people.

Is that enough of a cooling off period? I don't know. Yeah, it's just weird. Someone makes that determination. But the other thing that's strange is in the FBI definition of a serial killer, it doesn't say anything about the cooling off period. But it does in the spree killer one, which I thought was strange. That is a little bizarre.

either way, Gary Allen Walker is a very bad guy, no matter what you want to call him, serial killer or spree killer. Now, this is one of those lesser known cases, and we like to do those where we can find them. And I found this one. And, you know, as I started researching it, I thought it would make a great episode. The problem is I got so far down the track, started to realize, man, this is not only lesser known, there's not that much out there on it. Not a lot of coverage. No. Yeah. So, you know, really had to work

pretty hard to get some of the nuggets and the things that, that you and I like to put into a case. But even, you know, that said, we don't have the usual amount of background on Gary Walker's childhood. It was really hard to find, you know, hardly anything about his childhood. Now, what we do know is that he was born on September 25th, 1953. He had a couple of brothers and he had a sister. One of his older brothers was killed in California in a car wreck. And very similar to the case that we did last week of Lemuel Smith, Walker is going to say later on that his deceased brother spoke to him.

I didn't plan it that way. I didn't plan to do a series on serial killers whose deceased brother spoke to them. It just kind of happened that way. That actually would make for a good series if you could find eight or ten of those and put them together. I think it would be for sure. And I'm sure you could find them. Yeah. Now, we do know that his mom remarried a man named Otis Walker because Gary would later testify at trial that

Otis beat him frequently. In Gary's words, he would beat me until I couldn't scream anymore. He would tell the jury some of the details of what he described as a miserable life growing up. So Gibbs, we don't have all the childhood details that we normally would in a case like this, but I think it's safe to say that Gary Walker did not have a good childhood. It sounds like he was physically abused. He was most likely verbally, emotionally abused as well. But it wasn't just his stepfather.

Walker's mother played a role in this as well. Number one, they were both alcoholics. Yeah. But number two, and so much worse, it was alleged that his mother engaged with Gary in an incestuous relationship. when he was 12 years old. It was also alleged that she had sex with many of his friends at that young age as well. So, again, you know, we talk about psyche and we talk about trauma.

I don't know what that does to a 12 year old kid, but I don't think it can be good in any shape. You know, add on top of that, the alcoholism and everything that comes with, you know, severe alcoholics, his stepfather beating him severely. It's not a good childhood. But I don't know how many times he had a head injury. I don't know a lot of the, you know, the other details. But I think that's enough to tell you that he had it rough growing up. And some of this, you know, would come out at trial.

Some more things would come out at trial. He was placed in a children's medical psychiatric center in Tulsa at the age of 13. when he started showing signs of, you know, severe personality disorder. Walker left home at the age of 16 to join the Army, but was discharged after two months. Now, Gibbs, you can't join the Army at 16, right? He had to have lied about that. You know, I don't know back then if that was something that you could do. Well, yeah, I mean, you say back then, but this is like 69?

Yeah, I mean. I didn't think you could join the Army that young. You might have been, but I mean, if not, yeah, he would have a lie to get into there. And maybe that has something to do with the reason why he was discharged after only two months. Because the only thing that I could find was some information from Gary saying that he didn't really know why he was kicked out. Do we just know he got kicked out? We just know he got kicked out. That's early on too, though.

So I had to be pretty bad that they say, hey, you're out now. We're not even going to go. Two months. Yeah. We're not even going to do the code red. Yeah, you got to do something pretty serious. Or they have to figure out that you've lied about your age or something like that. But for him to say later that he was never really even sure why they kicked him out.

Well, I mean, it's like I said, they didn't even do the code red. I mean, I thought that happened when someone is not performing. They do the code red. and then you have to go to trial, Tom Cruise shows up. And if it gets really bad, you do a Baja blast after the Code Red. Did we just mix a movie with Taco Bell? No.

So Code Red is a Mountain Dew. Oh, I was going to Code Red and a few good men. I know you were. Yeah, yeah, okay. The Baja Blast is always a Mountain Dew too. It is a Mountain Dew too. So I was going, first you do the Code Red, then you do the Baja Blast.

There's an orange one, too. I can't remember what that was, what that's called. But I don't know. I don't know. Do they do the code red in every branch? What was the branch in a few good men? Marines. Yeah, I was thinking that was maybe more of a Marines type thing. But I don't know. I was never in the military. So I can't speak too intelligently on some of that stuff.

But after he got out of the army, he shared a house with his brother, Wayne, and another friend. But that didn't last very long. His brother, Wayne, went into the military as well. So Gary is kind of on his own. At a fairly young age, he had trouble finding a job, keeping a job. And eventually he turned to stealing, to survive, to get by. And he compiled a pretty substantial rap sheet over the years. You know, burglary, drugs, auto theft, charges related to firearms.

He definitely from a pretty early age was not heading down a good path. Essentially from 1970, when Gary was 17 years old, on, he would never spend a full year outside of jail or prison, ever. None whatsoever. Not a full year. Bits and pieces of... Never get the full... Nope. Never 365 days in a row.

Shocker. In 1974, he was sentenced to 18 months in prison for auto theft. In 77, he was charged with receiving a stolen firearm and sent to the Oklahoma State Penitentiary. That's big boy prison. That is big boy. But over the next couple of years, you know, he's in prison. But he starts to go back and forth to this Eastern State hospital.

in Venita, Oklahoma. He was diagnosed as a severe depressive who suffered from schizophrenia and paranoia. And it was reported that he underwent shock therapy. He tried a lot of different types of therapy, drug therapy, talk therapy, shock treatments. But it's around that time at, you know, while he's at this Eastern State Hospital, that he's started telling staff there that he was hearing his deceased brother speak to him. But he was paroled, but he couldn't stay out long. His parole was revoked because he did something he wasn't supposed to do.

And this time, they sent him to federal prison in Texas. Which is fine. You know, I like federal prison. If you're going to go to prison, go to federal prison. Did you just say the words, I like federal prison? No, I mean, I like if that was my eye. option. If you're like, hey, you can go to county lockup or you can go to federal prison, but I'm going to go send me to federal prison. Yeah, maybe you should make a clarifying

statement. It's like you're sending a postcard, you know, to a loved one saying, hey, I like federal prison is basically the way that you made. Yeah, that's probably didn't come out the right way. Yeah. It also makes it sound like you've done a number of prison stents in the various places. Yeah. And you're ranking them. Gibby must know, he must spend a county lock up. Yeah, and I really like federal prison, federal prison, which I know is not the case, but that's the way it made it sound. Yeah, you're right. It didn't sound too good.

In 1982, he was transferred to a federal medical facility in Springfield, Missouri. And again, this all has to do with mental illness. But at the same time, he's trying to escape. He made several unsuccessful escape attempts. I think it would be hard to escape. Maybe a little easier back then, definitely harder today. But yeah, I think it would be pretty tough. But I don't know if it'd be worth it because isn't it automatic 10 years added on or something like that?

I don't know what it is automatic. And I'm really surprised that you didn't reference your Sylvester Stallone movie. I was going to go there or I was going to go Shawshank. Yeah, because that's what I'm thinking, Shawshank. But the other thing to, I think, think about in regards to that Gibbs is today you escape. How likely is it that you're going to be able to stay off the grid? It's really hard to stay off the grid these days. I think so too. Not possible, but it's much harder than it was, you know, in the Shawshank era. Right. They actually

had a show, I think it was last year, where they took like federal officers. I don't know, if you could escape and for 48 hours, 72 hours, and they couldn't find you, then you got like all this money. Oh, what show is that? I would like to watch that. Yeah, it was actually, what was it called? I know it was out there. It was like a...

I know it was out there. It was in the ether somewhere. Yeah, it was out there somewhere. It was kind of like a... What's the show out there? A lot of people like to watch where they're all on the island together? Survivor? Yeah.

It's like Survivor? but it was they drop off like three different couples or partners yeah and it's like the big race or whatever i'm just gonna say it sounds like a cross between the amazing race survivor and kind of like that and they drop them off they give them a head start uh forget how many hours and they sick the dogs on them and they got all these like experts that come out and they like cross reference like they're friends they try to track by the telephone number they got experts that do the credit card stuff it's really interesting and uh-huh check that out Yeah. I don't know if it's still out there or not, but Netflix it.

So he did. He tried to escape, you know, a number of times. But in February of 1984, he was released, even though he had tried to escape, even though, you know, he was a repeat offender. He had broken parole. He had done a lot of things. He was paroled again. But this is just months, Gibbs, before he's going to go on this killing spree, this 19-day killing spree. that we talked about. It began on May 6th when Gary Walker murdered a 63-year-old man named Eddie Cash. This happened in Broken Arrow, Oklahoma, pretty close to Tulsa. You know, this whole, most of this, save a couple of episodes, takes place some distance from Tulsa, right, in towns in Oklahoma, but adjacent to Tulsa. But this 63-year-old man, Eddie Cash, he picked up Gary Walker hitchhiking.

And how many bad stories start with somebody was hitchhiking? I tell you, I just never hitchhike, man. Now, in this case, it's the reverse, right? Normally we're talking about the hitchhiker becoming a victim. Yeah. But in this case, the person that picks up the hitchhiker becomes the victim. because Gary Walker finds out where Cash lives and he goes back that night to rob him. But while he's robbing his house, the guy comes home and they get into it.

Gary Walker picked up a chimney brick and smashed in the skull of this 63-year-old man. Oh, my gosh. Just picked up a brick and did that. Yeah. And what was a very vicious attack, cracked his skull. in multiple places. How vicious. I mean, that's terrible.

I mean, that's his brutal raw. But then he took an electrical cord from a vacuum cleaner, fashioned it into a noose, tightened it around Eddie's neck just to make sure that he was dead. No way is he going to take the chance that this guy survives. This is brutal. So he hits him with the brick,

and then he turns around and he strangles him with a vacuum. I mean, it's just heartless. Is that even a right thing to say? Heartless? Yeah, I think that's a good word. I think the guy's heartless. I think a lot of killers are. Now, after the murder, Walker stole Eddie's van and he took the backroads from his house to avoid police.

He eventually sold the van to someone and then hitchediked his way to the city of Potow. It gives you and I talk about people having brushes with serial killers. What about this person that gave Gary Walker a ride to Poto and lived? You know, after we get done telling the story, you know that person looked back on that and thought, man, I was really close to death. Yeah. I was literally feet away from this stone cold,

as you said, heartless killer. Yeah, I mean, right there. What would you think about that? That would be, that would be, hey, maybe I should stop picking up hitchhikers, first of all. And then second, I better just thank my lucky stars and I'm going to live my life. I would think so. I mean, I think it would shake a lot of people up for sure. That would your wake-up call for sure in a bunch of different ways, I would think.

Now, in Poto on May 7th, Walker met. 36-year-old Margaret Bell in a bar. And they kind of hit it off. They were drinking at the bar. As the bar closed, Margaret offered Gary a ride in her Cadillac. But once they got inside the car, Gary pulled a knife on her. And Gary's really big on knives, maybe as big as you are. I like my knife.

Which is saying something. Yeah. Now, he uses his in a way that hopefully you don't. the jury still out on that. I don't if I have to. Because as soon as they get in this car and he pulls this knife, Margaret's driving the car. He's forcing her to drive.

Yeah. And it's not down the street. I mean, they go into Arkansas, Tennessee, up through Kentucky. I mean, it's a trip that he is making her take. How nerve-wracking would that be?

Not knowing when he's going to do... Or if? Or if. Yeah. What he's going to do. Well, one thing that he does, which would have been horrible for Margaret, no doubt about it, at various stops on this trip, he raped and sodomized her. He did this repeatedly. Nerve-wracking.

But eventually, he strangled Margaret. He's a strangler. He does a lot of his killing by strangulation. He strangled Margaret and dumped her body in a haystack in Kentucky. So he's pretty far from Oklahoma. right at this point. Sure. After disposing of her body,

he took off in her Cadillac and drove West. That's the other thing. This guy doesn't have a car of his own. So when he kills someone, he just takes their car, just rides around in it. Well, maybe easier back then today.

I don't know. It would be harder to do that today. I mean, you'd have to be doing something wrong for the police to even run a tag. Right. So maybe not. You know,

I'm sure there might be all points bolting out for this faster, right? So you have to look at, you have the death of, I should say, the murder of Eddie Cash in Oklahoma. Margaret Bell goes missing from Oklahoma, but she's missing. She's not dead. Or she is, but they don't know that. And there's really nothing to put the two cases together, right? The murder of a 63-year-old man, the disappearance of a 36-year-old woman. There was some stuff in the research too that you know Margaret did have a habit of going off for a day or two and then coming back. So I don't know that it was a, you know, five alarm at, you know, that night that she didn't

come back somewhere. Right. But eventually, you know, somebody's going to realize that she never comes back. But police at that point, they're not putting those two cases together. But Walker would drive her car all the way to Branson, Missouri. And, you know, you know, he would dump it there and then hitchhike his way back to Oklahoma. Her car would later be found by a Missouri State Trooper. Walker next made his way to Vanita, Oklahoma, which is about 45 miles northeast of Tulsa. On May 14th, he strangled 35-year-old Jane Hilburn in her home nine miles outside of Vanita. And you have to keep the timeline in check.

here, right? Because this is 19 days worth of murders. So he began on May 6th. We're up to the 14th. Yeah. After he murdered Jane Hilburn, he stole her black Camaro. And just the very next day, he picked up a girl in Jane's Black Camaro in a suburb of Tulsa called Oakhurst. He told the girl that his name was Gary Edwards. And this was an alias that Walker, sometimes used. Right. Again, he pulled a knife on this woman as soon as she's in the car and told her to take off her pants.

So he doesn't deviate a lot. Kind of predictable. Except for the very first murder, he used something that was lying around, right? Something I think he found in the house. But I don't think he set out to murder this guy. Yeah. I think this guy came home confronted him robbing his house and he knew that, you know, you. casualty of the event. Right. He didn't want to go back to prison. So, you know, he kills this guy. He wasn't out trolling for a victim. You know, I don't think when he murdered this guy. Now, that's just my opinion. But incredibly, this woman was able to get away from Walker unharmed. And she went to police with a description of him. But then you just jump forward the very next day. And you think, Gibbs, he was not satisfied with the way that that turned out. That in

counter. It didn't go the way he had planned. He got the woman in his car. He pulled the knife. Somehow she was able to get away. So the very next day, he raped a 17 year old girl at knife point in another suburb of Tulsa. Yeah. She too was eventually able to get away, but not without having to go through, you know, the sexual assault. Right. Luckily, she got away and didn't lose her life. Jane Hillburn's Black Camaro was found by police, abandoned on May 22nd. On May 23rd, Walker raped and murdered a woman by the name of Janet Jewell in Tulsa. Janet was a 32-year-old mother of three from Beggs, Oklahoma. She was in Tulsa looking for a job.

But she had some car trouble in Tulsa. and it was Gary Walker who happened to come along and offer to help. And I think quickly he realized that her car was out of gas, but he went to go get some gas for her. So he's acting like the Good Samaritan. She's probably thankful at this point that this guy stopped and is helping her out. He comes back with the gas. Janet is able to get the car started.

but as she's doing this, he jumps in next to her. He pulls a knife on her and essentially, you know, abducts her in broad daylight in Tulsa. This is during the middle of the day that this all goes down. Yeah. He forced her to drive to secluded areas where he raped and sodomized her. And then he strangled her with a cord. Walker dumped her body just a couple of miles away from her hometown of, Beggs, Oklahoma. Very next day, May 24th, he now has Janet Jules car, drives it back to Tulsa

to search for his next victim. And he pulls into this shopping center parking lot and he's stalking. He's waiting. He's watching. He's looking at all the women that are coming out of the different stores in this shopping center parking lot. He spotted 25 year old newswoman. Valerie Shaw Hartsnell, who was walking out of a store after buying some diapers. So this is a woman that's married that has at least one child. I don't know how many children she had, but she obviously has an infant that is still wearing diapers. She was very well known.

She was like a newswoman on the local channel. She was very well liked. She was an up-and-comer at 25 years old. but he's sitting in this car watching her stalking her and as she opens up the door to her pickup all of a sudden he's there that's freaky behind her with a knife so i'm assuming gibbs that he timed it right he's in the car he gets out unseen probably to valerie and he's timing it just right so that when she opens that door, but before she can get in and close it,

he closes that gap and gets to her. And he has a knife pressed at her back. So he abducts Valerie, forces her into the truck, he gets into her truck, and makes her drive. Now, what Gary Walker does in this situation

is he has Valerie drive to a bank because he wants her to cash a personal check and give the money to him. So she goes to the bank, writes out a personal check for $500 and tries to cash it through the drive-thru. Okay. Well, they won't cash it. So she has to drive to another bank.

And at the next bank, she is able to cash a check for $500 and she gives him the money. Unlike some of the other instances, police were called very quickly. Valerie is the wife and mother to an infant. People are expecting her home. Yeah. By a certain time. And when she didn't make it home, you know, they called the police. She also happens to work for the local news channel.

And so as soon as they find out, you know, that story goes out very, very quickly. Her face is splashed all over the news. And it doesn't take very long for witnesses to start calling. calling police saying that they saw Valerie at the banks with a rough looking guy sitting next to her in her pickup truck. Yeah. Police also found some witnesses that were at the shopping center that saw her drive away with a man.

But over the span of that night and into the next morning, he raped and and sodomized her. You know, this is a sexual predator. Yeah, absolutely he is. And a murderer. Well, yeah. But it seems to me that he's very motivated by sex. And later that day, the morning of the 25th, he strangled and murdered Valerie Shaw Hartsnell. Again, I just, Gibbs, I can't emphasize enough how quickly things are happening.

You know, you and I do stories of. serial killers that, you know, three months later, six months later, this is day after day after day. You know, it's a lot of murder and carnage in a 19 day period. Because again, just the very next day on May 26th, a young woman was kidnapped at knife point from a bar in Vanita, very close to where the murder of Jane Hilburn occurred. she was raped by Gary Walker, but he let her go. And again, I don't know the reason for that. I never saw anything in the research where he said why he let her go,

but he did. And she went straight to police, gave them a description of him, also gave them a description of the pickup truck that he was driving, which matched the description of Valerie's pickup truck. So they start digging in. They are able to trace him to a local motel, but they don't catch him. But they do find out that he registered under the name Dana Ray.

But it's two days later on May 28th where they really have their big break. Authorities had taken prints from Jane Hill Burns Camero. And it was on the 28th that they matched those prints to Gary Allen Walker. and they started having some of the surviving witnesses come in and look at pictures of people. And they started one by one picking out a picture of Gary Walker, identifying him as the man that had attacked them. So they know who this guy is. And the man hunt was on to find Gary Allen Walker. But I also think Gibbs that Gary Walker is aware.

that the heat is is being ratcheted up. Because on Saturday, June 2nd, around noon, he abducts 19-year-old Lori Smallwood and her 44-year-old mother, Pauline Mulliken, from Pauline's mobile home near Van Buren, Arkansas. So he's left Oklahoma. He's now in Arkansas. The pair had just returned home.

They had been out going to some yard sales, and they did some grocery shopping. And apparently Gibbs, he just burst into their mobile home, into the mother's mobile home, had a gun and forced them out. Now, Pauline's husband pulled up to the trailer just afternoon or around noon,

and he spotted a man driving his car away from the home. Now, that's probably not a good feeling. Can't imagine it. Now, at first you might think, hey, this guy stole my car, which I'm going to be ticked about and I'm going to call the police. But pretty quickly, when this guy gets out of his car, he looks around and sees two purses. He sees a bunch of groceries all out on the grass. So now you've got to be thinking a little bit differently.

You know, the worry level has to go up. What he didn't know until later was that his wife, And Laurie were locked in the trunk of the car. So he didn't see them, obviously, because they're in the trunk. He saw Gary Walker driving away in his car. So police come out. They're looking for these two women. It was said that about 500 people from around the town and surrounding areas came out to

help search for the missing pair. But Walker was gone. He was on his way to Tulsa. Oklahoma. And it was very strange to me, Gibbs, what he did on this drive. So he started out with both of these women in the trunk of the car. At some point, he stopped. He let them out of the trunk and had them sit in the front seat with him. At another point, he stopped and put Pauline, the mom, back in the trunk. That's really weird. It is. It didn't make any sense to me. I don't know what happened to, you know, cause him to want to do that.

Well, I think it's control. He's showing the women he's in control. You're probably right. You're probably right. I mean, that's what if you wanted to show, if that was, if you were that scenario, if I wanted them to know that I was in control, that's what I would do, you know? They get comfortable, then you got to put them back in the trunk. Again, you are talking from what appears to be first person experience.

You know that scares people. Yeah. When you talk as if this is what I would do. Yeah, I'm just saying, you know. You're just saying, I know. This is how you would do it. I was in those shoes. That's what I would have done.

Hopefully you will never be. Not done or did, but would do. In the future. Now you're saying this would be. Yeah, that's not coming out right either. Anyway. You just scare people to death. Yeah.

Don't hitchhike and you don't have to worry about it. But this is what he did. And I do agree with you. You know, it probably was some form of control. Putting fear into them maybe was another factor. The only other thing I thought was that Pauline did something or said something that he didn't like and he put her in the trunk. But I think what you said is probably the most likely answer. Now, at some point on this drive, he traded the pistol that he had with him for $25 worth of gas.

So I don't know if he traded it with a stranger and got the $25 or he traded it with an attendant at a gas station and they gave him $25 with the gas. I couldn't get that part, only that he traded it for gas. The Lori and Pauline would later say that while they were in the car, they kept up a constant conversation with Walker. So that kind of gives it away. Lori and Pauline live to talk about this ordeal that they go to. through, which is great. When Gary Walker pulls into Tulsa, he stops the car in front of a jewelry store and he lets them both out. It's around 5.45 p.m. But before he lets them out, Gibbs, and I found this very, very odd. He kissed both of them on the cheek as if you were, you know,

saying goodbye to an old friend. And he told them that they had been nicer than the others. Really? And that's such an eerie statement. You know, these two women, they know who they're with. And they know what this guy has allegedly done. But they get out of the car and they contact police and let them know that they were abducted by Gary Allen Walker. So police began searching the area for Walker.

and they got a tip from someone who had seen him drinking at a bar with another man. And apparently after the pair drank at the bar, they went back to this man's mobile home. Now, I read a couple of, I should say a couple. I read a lot of different things on this. I read where this man didn't know who he was with. So the other man, not Gary Walker, but the other man didn't know. know that he was with Gary Walker the killer. We're going to talk about this man later, though, and that's going to come into some

question. But there is a lot out there that said at the time, this guy didn't know who he was with. Yeah. So I don't know if he, if they just met at the bar, struck up a conversation and the guy was like, hey, you're a really nice guy. You want to come back to my mobile home and, you know, we'll continue drinking, we'll talk, whatever. Maybe he thought he'd made a new friend.

Maybe new friend. Police eventually located Pauline's stolen car in front of this mobile home that belonged to this gentleman. And they storm in and they arrest Gary Walker. And apparently Gibbs, it went down pretty smoothly. I mean, number one, he didn't have a gun anymore. Right. He had sold his or traded his gun for gas. He didn't put up a fight and they took him down pretty easily.

But everything in this case happened so quickly. You know, this is Saturday, June 2nd. So obviously they get him back to the station and they're questioning him and and all of that. He breaks down pretty quickly and starts to, you know, tell them the things that he, that he had done. Because by the next day, June 3rd, he's riding with the police to go to some of the dump sites. That's how quickly he, you know, gave himself up and.

That is quick. And, you know, so by the very next day, they're, they're going to find the bodies. So he's riding with police. And the first place they go to is a site in Rogers County, Oklahoma. This is where he dumped the body of newswoman Valerie Shaw Hartzell was located. But it's while they're on the road in the car that something very interesting happens. the police are taping the conversation. There's two police officers and Gary Walker, and they're talking. And he just starts talking about, you know, all these different crimes he committed.

A few hours later, he led them to the site where he dumped Janet Jules' body, which was in Okamoggi County. He also told them that he dumped Margaret Bell's body in Kentucky. and he told them where they could find Eddie Cash's van and Valerie's pickup truck. So he's just giving out everything. He's not holding much back. But Gibbs, there might be a reason why he was pretty free with information. And it's because Gary Walker is going to use the insanity plea, the insanity defense in his trial.

Right. The first trial that comes up is for the murder of Eddie. Cache, it began in November 84. So attorneys are faced with the task of proving that Gary Walker could not distinguish between right and wrong when he killed Eddie Cash. That's what they have to do. They have to convince the jury of that. But for some reason, they didn't object when prosecutors wanted to enter his taped confession into evidence. Now, he talked about a lot of lot of stuff on the on this tape during this car ride but they could only play at trial at this trial the parts that dealt directly with the killing of eddie is that because it would be prejudicial

to the case you know to bring in an info on another case yeah that would be what i would think i never read anything about why they could only play but i'm surmising that you're right that it would be prejudicial to the jury if they were to hear him talking about another case for which he's not on trial. That's my only thought. I think you're right about that. That makes sense, then. But there is some damning comments, you know, on this tape. You know, at one point, one of the police officers asked Gary Walker, did you know that it was wrong when they were talking about Eddie Cash. And Walker says, yeah, I know right from wrong. I don't know why I did it, but I know I did it. I mean, that's perfect to have that on tape, though. It is because, as I just said, the defense's job is to prove that he didn't know right from wrong. And in his own words, he literally says, yeah, I know right from wrong. At one point on the tape, he said, you're going down the road, going, you just killed something.

somebody. Why? And you realize there's no reason. There's no reason why I should have even bothered. It's kind of a strange thing to say, but why I should have even bothered to kill these people. No, you shouldn't have bothered to kill these people. You should have left these people alone. So the prosecutors laid out all of their evidence against Walker, which was pretty substantial. But the main thing was the taped confessions. I mean, that was gold. The defense, countered with a psychiatrist who said that Walker was most likely experiencing a psychotic episode when he killed Eddie Cash. This guy went on to say that Walker probably had trouble distinguishing the 63 year old cash from his abusive stepfather. And he said that the dysfunctional

relationship with his mother played a huge role in the fact that, you know, Walker never had a normal family life. And this made him unable to learn the morals and the restraint and those type of things that most of us learn from our parents. He didn't learn all that. That's what the psychiatrist is saying. And I don't doubt that's true. I believe this guy had a very jacked up childhood. I don't think Gibbs that he probably learned all of the valuable lessons that, you know, parents are supposed to teach their children, what lesson is he learning from sleeping with his mother and having his mother sleep with his friends at the age of 12?

I don't know what lesson you're learning from that. Yeah. But it's not the right... How to share. It's not the right, you know, it's not the right type of message. That's not one they talk about on Sesame Street. I can tell you that. Count of Dracula.

How many people in bed to... One or two or two. or three. The count? The count. They don't actually call him. He doesn't call himself Count Dracula, does he? No, you're right.

He's just the Count. He's the Count. Probably because of copyright infringement. Probably Sesame Street doesn't want to get sued. Yeah. But again, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with anything that this psychiatrist is saying. This guy even went on to testify that Walker told him while he was under sodium amatol or true serum, that he had experienced confusion between cash and his stepfather.

Now, I don't know if I believe that or not. He probably did tell the psychiatrist that, but that doesn't mean it was true. I don't know much about sodium amatol. I don't know how well it works. Be fun to take once. Yeah. You don't realize it, but I've actually given it to you.

Oh, yeah. I had my wife. Put it in the food. Mm-hmm. You're not aware. And then I asked you a bunch of questions. I got the true answers about the chair, about the microphone.

You're going to put it out later? I have it all on tape. Of course, I taped it all. Yeah. Well, that's good. So they know that you have the bigger chair and the big... No. They know the truth because you told the truth.

But yeah, really. In all seriousness, I don't know how well that works or whether somebody would be able to, you know, tell somebody something they wanted to hear. Even under that? I remember in Arnold Schwarzenegger. What's his name? Arnold Schwarzenegger.

Okay. And true lies. Yep. He fought it. He didn't let it get to him. He's a big guy, though. He looked at Jamie Lee Curtis and act like he was upset, but he didn't. He got it. Oh, we got a true lies reference. That one's never made the podcast before. I actually do like that movie.

Is that like 1990? I'd say it's early 90s, if I had to guess. Yeah. Do you remember the best scene about that one? The one involving Jamie Lee Curtis? Yeah. Okay. I assume that's the one you're talking about. Yeah, that was a good scene. Yeah. I'm a big Jamie Lee Curtis fan.

had been for a long time. It was an upgrade from Halloween. Yeah, she was good in Halloween too. Yeah. Just different. Much different role. Yeah. Much different rule. Now Walker also testified on his own behalf, but some of the things he said Gibbs didn't make any sense to me. On the stand, he testified that he was on his way to kill a woman in Owasso who on the stand, he called a whore when Eddie Cash picked him up. I don't know how that in any way helps your case when you admit in a murder trial that you were on your way to murder somebody else. Yeah.

I know I wasn't going to go murder her. I was headed to murder somebody else, that whore. But instead of killing her, I didn't have to killing him because he just rub me the wrong way. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. I just found that statement very odd. I don't see how it plays into your advantage to admit that. court. I don't know why the attorneys would ever put him up, put them up on the stand anyway.

Why would you ever have somebody like that testifying on his own behalf? Well, maybe this is a little different because they are claiming or they are using the insanity defense. So maybe they did want him to get up there and say some outlandish things. That's true. Go ahead. Act crazy. Yeah, I never actually thought about that. Maybe they did. But still, I don't understand how it's good to ever say that you're on your way to kill somebody else. No. I don't know how that works for you.

But the prosecution, you know, they, they had witnesses of their own that countered the defense saying Walker was methodical. That he went there to Cash's house when he did to rob the place because he thought Eddie wasn't there. And like I think I said before, the prosecution contended that Gary Walker. killed Eddie Cash because he feared going back to prison. And they had good reason to say that. Because just like so many other things, he had said this exact thing to police in that taped talk that they had. So basically, Gibbs, they just went back to those tapes time and time again to counter everything

that the defense put up. The jury deliberated for four hours. They rejected the insanity defense and they found Walker guilty of first degree murder. And he received a death sentence. Now, later on, he would go to trial for the murder of newswoman Valerie Shaw Hartzell. A jury found him guilty of murdering Valerie as well. And he got another death sentence. But the conviction on this one would later be reversed on appeal.

and it would go to a second trial. He was still found guilty at the second trial, but instead of the death penalty, he received a life sentence plus 500 years for imprisonment. 500 years. It's a long time. It is a long time. Walker took plea deals in the other cases.

So, you know, the murders of Jane Hilburn, Janet Jewell, and Margaret Bell. he was also charged with a with a bunch of other things I think he had over 40 felonies Wow and all that's including the murders but you know he was charged with the attempted rape of a 24 year old Tulsa woman a kidnapping in Craig County the rape of a 24 year old Veneta woman in Ottawa County but in all when it was all said and done after the three trials after all the the the plea deals he got one death. sentence, six life sentences, 700 years in prison on top of that. There ain't no coming back from

that, Gibbs. There's nowhere to go. If they don't eventually fall through on the death penalty, I mean, you've got all those life sentences. Yeah, you're never getting out unless you pull a shawshank redemption and somehow tunnel your way out. And that's when you'd want it. You would try, right? What do you get to lose? Well, he had tried a bunch of times before. Yeah. When he actually did have something to lose. He ended up getting more time for some of those other earlier escape attempts. But you're right. At that point in time, you're never getting out. What are they going to do to you? Yeah. I mean, you're a lifer now, man. You've got the death penalty hanging over your head. And like you said, if for some reason that were to fall through, you're still never getting out of

prison. Maybe they put you in the hole or something. Solitary confinement. Solitary confinement. Solitary, yeah. Solitary. 23 hours out of the day. You know, his defense. team would appeal all the way up to the U.S. Supreme Court, but they refused to hear his appeal in 1986. So now we get to the year 2000. Gary Walker is about to be executed. And you know Gibbs, where we have the information, we like to talk about individuals last meals. So Gary's last meal consisted of three cheeseburgers, three sliced tomatoes, French fries, and a strawberry It's a lot. It is a lot, but as far as last meals go, it's pretty tame, actually.

Sounds like one of your Saturday nights at the pull-up burger hop. Do you say pull-up burger hop? Drive up, you know? What the hell is a pull-up burger hop? Pull the car up. We're back in the 50s and it's hanging off of my window before I go to the sock hop. That's right. What are you talking about? You know it.

Burger hop. You know you do it. Down there at the corner. At the corner. Yeah. There's a place where they roller skate out and set my hamburger on my window. On your window and sit there and you get your cheeseburger, your fries. If you order a side of gravy to dip them in.

Oh, gravy. And I don't know. Maybe this was, you know, maybe they already had the $20 limit or some limit on it by this point. You and I have talked about some of these older cases, though, where, man, they asked for four or five, six different meals. Would you change your final meal now since what you said on the previous episodes on what you'd get for your final meal? No, I don't think so. I don't think it's been that long, has it, since we talked about it? I think I'm still going Pine Club filet mignon. Yeah. I'm definitely going with like some burgundy mushrooms. Oh, a little saltier,

burgundy mushrooms on top of it. To go with my steak. Yeah. Maybe a loaded baked potato and definitely some of those onion strings. I like onion strings. Oh, the little thin onion strings on top of your steak. Yep. That sounds like everything you get at Pine Club. I know. It's good stuff. You'd be happy. Chase it down with what? Pepsi. A little Pepsi. Yeah, you like your Pepsi. Not much of a drinker. How about a dessert? Dessert. Might go apple crisp. I'm not, I don't like cake and stuff like that. No, but you like that topping on the apple crisp thing? Yeah. There you go. All right, now you got to go. Tell me yours. Me? I think it's just a good salad. No, just joking.

Ah, man. Healthy Gibby. He's about ready to be executed and he wants to go healthy. No, I'll tell you what. I'd probably do some kind of Italian, you know, maybe a good pasta, eggplant parmajon. Pasta, fajol. Yeah, a little lasagna, maybe at all. Just to do Italian fest.

You should use an excuse to do your Italian. It's not even an Italian accent. It's not an accent. I did call my new friends at Florence Foodies and say, I need some of them. I need some of good foodies. It's not even an accent. It's more of a caricature of an accent. That's what it is.

You want one of those character drawlers from Kings Island to come in and like sketch it out like I would say it. Exactly. Now, Walker's execution took place in the early morning hours of January 13, 2000. He was only 46 years old, Gibbs, at this time. How old are you? 45. One more year. You'd be there.

One more year. You've been in the same. same age, yeah. He was pronounced dead at 120, Eastern Standard Time. Only took about four minutes. That seems like a long time, though, for a lethal injection. Yeah, so after they injected him with the chemicals, the cocktail, whatever it was back then, that would stop his heart, took about four minutes.

Yeah, I wonder how it's like, like, does he feel it, you know, because you'd want him to? Like, did he feel a little? No, I don't think you want. They got to, like, make sure he's not in pain. Right. It's got to be humane. I think there's a, and I'm no expert on it by any means. There's people listening that know way more about it than I do. But I thought there was a, there was one of the three, right, isn't there three now? I know there is now. There's three drug. So I think what you're right. One is like a, so they don't feel it. So you don't feel much. And then one stops, you know, slows down the heart until it stops. And then the fatal one, I guess. Kind of like that movie would. Law-abiding citizen. Is that what you're going to say? No, I was going to go with Tom Hanks and the Maybe they always practiced the electric chair one

Oh, Green Mile? Green Mile. But now you switch from lethal injection to the electric chair. I know. Those are two different things. I was just thinking. You could have went law-abiding citizen. That was good though.

I like how he kept him alive. That's where the cocktail, he messed up to cocktail and that guy... Yeah, he felt it. He felt it big time. But I still liked the puff fish trigger gun. I know. You're a big fan of that. Yeah.

But there was something about Walker's execution that I really wanted to talk about. And it's the fact that there were a lot of people that wanted to be in that room. They wanted to watch Gary Walker die. Remember when you have a lot of victims, family members. You have victims too, right, that survived. But the room only held 12 people. But from what I read, they crowded in 30 people into the execution viewing room.

where it was only meant to hold 12. And then there was a whole bunch of people that couldn't make it in there that were in another room nearby watching it on closed circuit TV. There were a lot of people that wanted to see this guy die for what he did.

In his final statement, Gary Walker said to the victim's families, I can only ask for your forgiveness. The hate you have towards me, let it go. I am sorry. I don't know if I can even get the words out. And now I'm ready to go and the warden is ready to send me.

I don't know, Gibbs. I would be like, don't you tell me how to feel about you. I will hate you if I want to hate you. Who are you? Now, there is one kind of a side thing that I want to talk about. And it was on June 5, 1986. The nude body of 24-year-old Duranda Gayroy was found in a remote portion of the Rock Point State Recreation Area between Claremore and Tulsa. She was nude, but she did have stockings on.

And her bra was wrapped around her neck. It had been used to strangle her. Her body was bruised. And it had a lot of burns on it that they determined were put there by. a cigarette or multiple cigarettes. So this is 1986. But the part that's interesting about it is that the person that is last known to have been seen with Duranda was a man by the name of Marshall Cummings Jr.

He was an ex-convict, but he was also the guy Gibbs that had the mobile home that drank with Gary Walker that night. and it was at his mobile home where they arrested Gary Walker. I just found it so strange. In early 1987, Cummings pled guilty to second degree murder and was sentenced to 25 years in prison. Prosecutors said they agreed to the plea deal because they had trouble locating key witnesses. But really the biggest thing for me was that there was a lot in the research about people, you know, defense attorneys for, Gary Walker coming out and saying, okay, here's a guy that strangled a woman in the same fashion somewhat that Gary Walker did.

Could he have been involved in some of the other cases? Because I think the defense tried to say at one of the trials that I think it was Valerie Shaw Hartsell's trial that Gary had another man with him. I don't know. I just, I just thought it was an interesting kind of side avenue that this man that he ended up with that night that apparently, if you believe it or not, didn't know him, ends up killing a woman a few years later in a very similar fashion.

Yeah. It's very strange. It's very, very bizarre. But that's it. That is the story of Gary Allen Walker, serial killer. spree killer i don't know both both bad guy for sure absolutely all right giz we've got some voicemails you want to dive into those let's do it hey guys my name is rebecca from iowa i'm a new listener and i've been binging a podcast and i love it um i can't remember the episode i was listening to but there was a

michael scott reference in it and i consider myself a bit of a true crime aficionado's the fact that there was an office reference, which I'm a huge fan of. It was a, like, massive bonus for me. I've never heard an office reference in a podcast about true crime, which is pretty much the only thing I listen to. So you guys have become one of my new favorite true crime podcast, and I just thought I should let you know to keep up the good work. Thanks for the laugh.

I really enjoyed it. It was great. That's what she said. So we appreciate that call from Iowa. Gibbs, you know I'm a huge office fan. Oh, you just benched it for the third time in a row. like in the month. You know, I have, I have two or three shows that are either on Netflix or Hulu or something

where if I've got something going on, if I'm doing something, I just want something in the background, those are the shows I go to. You know, always sunny, office, scrubs, things like that. But I love office. I'm a huge office fan. My kids are really big into the office, too. Yeah. They love it.

It's a good show, man. Mike and Gibby. Mike, Mike and Gary. Love you guys. just like that. That might be the new record for the shortest voicemail in the history of true crime all the time.

And I like how it kind of reverb there? You know what I'm saying? How did it reverb? Mike, Mike and Gabby, Mike, Mike Gibby, didn't do that? Is that what a reverb is? Is that what a reverb? I don't know. Remember that show back in the 80s? I thought reverb was like an effect.

Remember that show back in the 80s you just saw the guy's head? It was like a... Talking about Max Headroom? Yeah. It sounded like Max Headroom, but a female. How am I getting so? good at knowing what you're saying with very limited clues. The thing is, I bet you there's a

bunch of other people out there listening. It said the same thing. You're talking about Max Headroom. Oh, you're probably right. Because they've figured me out by now. Yeah. We're all getting into your head, which is scary. Scary in some respects. Actually, a lot of respects. Yeah. But she even did the little smoochy sounds at the end. She did. Maybe that's reverb. Maybe you should look reverb up. That's a re-bris. After this, after we're going to let it fly. They're letting me know. Don't worry.

Hi, Mike and Gibby. I wanted to call and just say to, Gibby to keep practicing your accent. Honestly, something that I've been working on lately is my Australian accent, which is not so great, so I'm not going to do it. I had planned actually to do three or four to swap in between three or four throughout this whole message, but I don't have the courage right now I used to do it, but I just wanted to tell you to keep practicing.

It's Sandy from Michigan, the lady with the dog, and keep going, you know, keep practicing, keep mimicking people, watch TV, make friends. That's high practice, and I never considered myself to be somebody who is good at accents at all until I started playing around just with it and imitating people and having tons of fun. So I think it's really cool that you're willing to put yourself out there, even if it might not be quite right. So I think that's awesome. Thanks. And keep your own time ticking. And I'll talk to you guys later. Thank you. Oh, that's all so good. That was horrible. Whatever he just did. I don't even, oh my gosh, that was, I thought that was a,

was that an Asian accent or an, like a? Oh, I don't know. what it was. I don't know what it was. But anyway, she's... I get a kick out of that. Bluie A, though. You know, I try. I try, get my... I can't even... I'm now just going into a country little thing here. She got me. She got me because... But I was... I did find myself in the beginning saying,

trying to narrow her accent down. And then I thought, man, her accent seemed like it just changed. But I think she did it on purpose. I think she was going for that five accents in a row. But she got me. She did. She did a good job. I'll give her that. So it's catching on, Gibbs. Keep it up. Yeah.

Yo, what's going on? This is Brad from Jimmy Kimmel Live. I'm going to tell you guys, you do a great job. And anytime you're in Los Angeles, you're more than welcome to be my guest in the green room. It's pretty fancy. She should tell our cheeseburger number two over there to leave his member jacket only at home because he kind of had a place here. And also, I had two rules of these podcasts. One one was you don't listen to a true crime, one with two people. and you made me break that because you guys do a pretty good job of the editing and making it smooth and doing real well.

The other rule was when you find a good podcast not to go back to the first couple and listen, but you guys didn't break that because the first couple sounds like the cheeseburger number two there is calling in with a can and string. So you guys have improved and it's really entertaining and all the best. And again, you're welcome to come be my guest here,

Jimmy Kim. I'll send you you guys out an email with my email in case you're ever enough. All right. Again, no member jacket only. Thank you. But I'm a good cheeseburger. You're cheeseburger number two. I'm a cheeseburger number two. Cheeseburger, cheeseburger.

Yep. So that's Brad. Brad's pretty cool. We've been emailing back and forth. Yeah. He sent us some stuff. We'll talk about in the mailbag. But if we're ever in L.A.

We'll be looking you up, man. We're definitely going to tell me him alive. Tell me why it's called the green room. I don't know. No, I want him to tell me. Oh. You can tell me if you know, but I don't think you know. I don't know.

Because a lot of times they were green. I have no idea. I don't know. Hey, it is Jill Miller from Chicago. This is for Mike for deliciousness. Heads up on the Duke sausages. I am also addicted. Amazing.

I get them at Walmart, usually online. Do you find them in the store sometimes, too? They're like 448 a package, which is very reasonable, deep turkey pricing. But you can find it for $6, 7, 8 in all different kinds of stores, but that's the best price I find. I order like, I order like a dozen at a time, get the free shipping. and last me for the month.

But yeah, I had to share those with you because I heard you like to be jerky, and that's my favorite. All right, guys. Have a great day, thanks. Bye. So Jill from Chicago has got me addicted to these Duke sausages. I don't know what else to say, Gibbs. I actually found them at Sam's.

Now, they didn't have the saracha ones, which I actually like a little bit better. Yeah. They had the regular, but still good. Yeah, you love them, man. You can't get enough of them. I can't. I'm out.

I'm out now. You love a good sausage. I knew you were going to say that. You son of a bitch you. All right, Gibbs. So that's it for voicemails. We appreciate all of that. You want to dip in the mailbag?

Do the mailbag, man. So Ari Ansbrough sent some chips from Vermont and also sent some bison jerky, which you're going to try out. Bison. Lean. Try out that lean bison jerky. That's right. And then Brad, who you heard on the voicemail, sent us some. Mr. Ting Can in the wire.

Send us some Jimmy Kimmel stuff, some shirts and stuff. So yeah. How'd you, how'd you pull that one off? How'd I pull it off? No, Brad pull that off. Because Brad works at Jimmy Kimmel.

He's the man. He is the man. He's going to have us back in the green room. Exactly. And then Aaron sent us some stickers, Gibbs, from Burning Man. Really? Which are actually really cool. Burning Man.

Yeah. So Gibbs, have you ever been to Burning Man? I have not. I haven't either. Are you ever going to be in a Burning Man? I doubt it. I doubt it.

it. It's out in, I think it's in Nevada somewhere. Really? Out in the desert. Yeah. I like the desert. I know a lot of people go. Yeah. So you know a lot of people that go? I don't. I said I know a lot of people go. Oh, I gotcha. Yeah. I don't know anybody that goes except for Aaron. I have to learn about it. I don't know anything about it. All right. Everyone, that is it for another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.