True Crime All The Time - Gary Ridgway - The Green River Killer Part 1

Episode Date: September 18, 2023

Gary Ridgway is a man widely known as the Green River Killer. At one point, he was considered America’s “deadliest convicted serial killer,” after pleading guilty to 49 counts of murder. Over 20 years, Ridgway strangled an unknown number of women, most of whom were sex workers in King County, Washington.Join Mike and Gibby for this 350th episode of True Crime All The Time as they discuss the notorious serial killer Gary Ridgway. In this first episode, we cover Gary's childhood, his marriages, and the many murders he committed in the early 1980s.You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 350 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime. Mike Gibson, how are you? Hey man, I'm really doing well and you sound so excited. I am. I said it on Patreon when we were playing your special movie game that I came up with,

which was really fun, by the way, that I'm just really having a great week. That's good. It's important that you have a great week. It is. It is. I can't say that every week,

but I am feeling fantastic. And what do you think about episode 350? That's amazing. I mean, seriously. It really is. That we finally got to 350 and not only we at 350, you got a really nice surprise at 350. Which was what? What we're doing, the case.

Oh, you said you, like as in me. Oh, yeah, yeah. You meant you as in the listener? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. There is a big surprise because it's a big case.

it's probably not as big a surprise because they already saw the title as they're listening to us. Oh yeah. But you know what 350 made me think of? What it made you think of? That's the number of free meals that you've gotten. So then I started doing the math. Oh my gosh. So let's be conservative 10, 12, 15 bucks. Okay. Which one is it? 10 or 15? It's, it varies depending on what we get. Yeah. I figure you owe me four to five thousand dollars. And that's over six years. So people, people, let's just call it six thousand. But do I get credit for the,

the few times I bought? Okay, I'll give you credit for the two times that you bought and we'll deduct. And those were huge meals. 20 bucks. Those were like, you know, meals for you and the family,

you know. We'll call it 5,500 and just go from that. checks in the mail. So let's go ahead and give our Patreon shout-outs. We had Sophia Reb-D. Reb-D? Okay, thank you. Abigail. Abigail. What's going on, Abigail? Suzanne Carter. What's up? Carter? C.R. A. R. Kelly. What's going on, Kelly? Aaron H. Corey Odenbach. There's Odenbach in the house. Mary Gordon. Well, appreciate that, Mary. Wanda Addis. Hey, Addis. Stacey Monk. What's going on, Monk? Ebo. Ebo. I feel like that thing you do with the calculator. Ebo. Bebo. I don't.

I don't know, you do it. I can't do it. And you shouldn't. You shouldn't. You stick with your accents, and I'll do the computer calculator. Probably best that way. Gabby Scully. Hey, Scully. Robbie Brown. What's going on Brown? Holly Burgess. Hey, there's Holly. Kathleen fret. Don't fret. Anthony Valentin. Hey, Anthony. Kitty cat. Oh, I want to do the meow thing. You can't. Okay, meow. Holly. Hey, Holly. And last but not least, Ash Tastic and Peach jumped out at highest love. Man, thanks, Ash-Tastatic and Peach. Yeah. It's great new support. Absolutely amazing. And then if we go back into the vault, this week, we selected Tracy Evans. Hey, thanks, Tracy. We also had some great PayPal donations from McCabe's costumes. Hey, thanks, McCabe's. And George Skyba. What's going on,

Skiba? So we appreciate everyone who chooses to support the show. Love it. Very, very much. Gibbs right now on Unsolved. We have an episode out on Ben, Beverly J. Potter Mints. And, you know, this is a murder. And it's an interesting one. It is. Because there are some persons of interest slash suspects. And they're kind of the usual suspects that people you would look at first. But they all kind of have these alibis and, and we'll just kind of get into all those details. But I think it's one that you want to listen to, like you said, it's got some interesting twist and turns. Yeah. I mean, those are always very fascinating. But let's get to episode 350. And we chose Gary Ridgeway, the Green River Killer. You know, people have been asking

for this one for years and years and years. 350 seemed like the perfect time. You know, Gary Ridgeway is a man widely known as the Green River Killer. At one point, he was considered America's deadly convicted serial killer. After pleading guilty to 49 counts of murder, over a period of 20 years, Ridgeway strangled an unknown number of women, most of whom were sex workers in King County, Washington. That's a big number.

It's a huge number. And, you know, I think it's why so many people are fascinated with Gary Ridgway is, number one, his count. The number of people that he murdered is, is just astronomical. Yeah. My thought is it's probably much, much higher, to be honest with you, than the 49 that, you know, he pleaded guilty to.

Yeah, I believe a lot of people feel that same way. Yeah. So who knows? We really, there's no way to know what the real number could be in part one of the Green River Killer episodes. We'll cover Ridgeway's childhood and adult life, as well as the many murders he committed. committed in the early 80s. And I think that's another part of this case that fascinates many people.

You know, this guy, he operated for over 20 years. Yeah. And got away, got away, got away, you know, it's that part in and of itself is intriguing to people. They want to know how could that happen. Yeah. How was he able to pull that off? Yes.

And why wasn't, you know, some agency able to put it. together. Gary Leon Ridgeway was born on February 18th, 1949 in Salt Lake City, Utah. His parents were Thomas Newton Ridgeway and Mary Rita Ridgeway. Thomas was a bus driver and Mary was a sales clerk at J.C. Penny. I remember J.C. Penny? Yeah. Didn't ours go out of business? They did. Yeah. That's a place where, you know, my mom used to take me shopping for school. I remember it vividly. I know you didn't go to JCPenney. You just went to the husky store. Is that what it was called?

Just husky boys, I think was the name of it. No. I think it was an Iowa on Sears, but yeah, thank you. That sold huskies? They didn't have their own store. No, yeah. Gary was the second of three boys. His brother Gregory was born in 1948.

And then Thomas Ridgeway was born in 1951. According to Time magazine, the family moved often between Utah and Idaho, then settled in Washington in 1958. In 1960, the family moved to C-Tac, a suburb of Seattle. And I actually didn't realize that C-Tac was a city. Yeah. I just thought that stood for like Seattle, Tacoma. It kind of referred to the airport, stuff like that, but I had no idea.

That was an actual city. Gary's father wasn't around much. But when he was home, the boys often asked him to go to the woods with them and cook over an open fire. So do a little quasi camping. Bonding. Bonding outdoorsy type stuff. There's a lot of woods up that way. Yeah, there definitely is.

In the northwest, for sure. I've been watching a lot of YouTube videos of people, you know, they just kind of go out. they do like a one, two, three day camping thing. They catch fish. There's just one guy in Australia that really cracks me up. He handles like field days. He gets into some stuff. Crazy stuff.

Not crazy. I just like the way he talks. Yeah. Okay. Because of his Australian accent. It's not even that. It's like the words that he uses. Yeah.

Calls everybody doggies. And, you know, he says we're going to punch. Like, meaning we're going to go somewhere. We're going to punch up here. Okay. And it just cracks me up. Well, we can take our trucks and go punch somewhere. We could.

We want to fill the wilderness around you. We could. Now, the Ridgeway family didn't have a lot of money. They lived in a 600 square foot house and the boys shared a room. That is very, very small. 600 square feet. That's how much bigger than a two-car garage, really? Or like a living room, right?

Like 30 by 20? It's pretty small. It's not huge. For your whole house. For your whole house. And then you got three boys living in one room. Yeah. Stacked on top of each other.

Biography.com reported that Gary grew up near the Pacific Highway and what they termed a deprived neighborhood. And he did not do well in school. He had dyslexia and was held back to grades in high school. I get it. And you would. I mean, and you've been very candid about your struggles with dyslexia when you were younger.

And I think. that's really kind of endeared you to a lot of people because I do think there are so many people that struggle with dyslexia. Right. And maybe don't want to admit it. So when they hear somebody like you, a big, famous star, talk about it. Now, in all seriousness, it's good to talk about these things. It is good, you know, because I think a lot of people got through school with it not being treated or like um agnosed yeah they just they just kind of were able to yeah get through it without really getting help with with the issue yeah you're probably right you know just because i was 11 years old in the second grade you know well there's always that one kid that you know pulls up in the camaro

in like sixth grade yeah smoking a cigarette and that just happened to be you that was me gary graduated when he was 20 years old. He attended Chinook Junior High School and Tai High School. I hope I'm saying that correctly. According to a prosecutor's report, Gary was socially well adapted. All right. What do you make of that? What does that mean to you?

It sounds like he got along with everybody, you know, that he can handle himself out in public around people. In social situations. Yeah, social situations. Gary's former classmate Alan Sample told the Tacoma News Tribune. He never had any trouble getting a girlfriend or getting a date. Just like you. I was very socially well adapted.

You never have them. And you never had a problem getting a date. And luckily, haven't had to get one in, what, 27 years now. Yeah. I'd been 20, well, actually 29. My wife's going to think I was dating before we got married. Terry Rochelle, a high school friend told the Seattle Times that, Gary wasn't someone that would really stand out.

She added the guy in class that's going to always be in trouble. That'd be Gary. Not a bad guy. Just always in trouble. All he had to do was open his mouth and he'd be in trouble. Yeah, we all know somebody like that. Yeah. I mean, to me, it's a little bit of maybe class clown or instigator or something like that.

But at the end of the day, she's saying, not a bad guy. just always in trouble. Yeah, it happens. Gary played football in the ninth grade, which you would think he would be a standout. Because technically at this point, he's two years older. Right. Right.

Right. Than everybody else. But his coach described him as somewhat smallish and nondescript, according to AETV. That's not a good description. It's not a great description for a football. Exactly. Yeah.

Somewhat smallish and nondescript. Non-descript is such. a strange word to me. It is. What does it mean? I can't describe you. There's just, you're so plain that you don't stand out. I'd rather someone say, I can't remember. You know, because you're like, yeah, I get it. You don't remember. It's been such, you know, but, you know, to be. I remember. I remember you're just so unmemorable. Yeah. That I can't describe you. Growing up, Gary was not the favorite child. That was his older brother, Gregory. So, I do want to take a minute here, Gibbs, to talk about some similarities between you and Gary Ridgeway, three boys.

Yeah. He had two brothers. You have two brothers. I was the middle child. Just pointing that out. I played football in the ninth grade. You were somewhat smallish and nondescribes. You were not smallish.

I know that. I know that. I've seen pictures of you when you were younger. Kind of buff in your high school years. Yeah. on the wrestling team. But were you the favorite child? No.

No. I went to my older brother. Okay. So same here. I would have thought, without much experience, because I'm an only child, but I would have thought that the younger brother would kind of always get the baby favorite label. Well, my little brother did get that, but I think my older brother was the favorite because he was dependable, accountable, accountable.

where my little brother couldn't do no wrong. Yeah. And you were just a goofoff. I caught it all, man. I caught it all. Yeah. Like all middle kids. You catch it all.

And it was said that Gregory was an accomplished student while Gary had an IQ in the low 80. So I beat him on that. Yeah. You definitely beat him on that. But, you know, it's fairly low. When you're, you know, teetering around that 70 mark. Yeah. That's kind of the, the benchmark that's been used.

over the years. But he did have a learning disability. He did. He did. So, you know, is that going to affect an IQ test? I would say, absolutely. It's going to affect every test you take, right? If it's untreated.

Right. Or you don't get any help with it. And the other thing that, that I would say is that, you know, in all the episodes we've done, the one thing that I have learned is IQ doesn't always equate to, street smarties. Oh yeah, it does not. Because when we've talked about some of these killers, and it comes out that, you know, they have a 70 IQ. But yet they are doing all these things that are very cunning. Yeah. And smart for the lack of a better term in getting away with their crimes. If I had to meet somebody in the alley at nighttime and the person had a super high IQ,

book smart or somebody just was top of the game street smart i would say i'll take my chances with the book smart guy i wouldn't want to go head to head with the street smart guy that does make a lot of sense it does it does wow i made i made sense one i think most people would would would say that not that you can't have very smart people who will kick your ass because you can oh you can yeah i'm just saying dark alley if i had it if like had to flip a coin yeah yeah To be honest with you, I thought that story was going down a far different path in this dark alley. And I'm glad it didn't. Prosecutor Patty Eakes told A&E that the only time she saw Ridgeway express true sadness was when he was talking about his own intelligence.

She said he was so obviously limited intellectually. The one time he genuinely cried was when he talked about how afraid he was of being put on what he called the short. us. And I think we've all heard that term. Sure. It's obviously a very derogatory term that was used back when you and I were younger by a lot of people. Absolutely. She went on to say that I suspect that having a brilliant brother was a big thing that shaped him. Gary's the troubled one, not the smart one. I suspect that was a big issue for him throughout his life. Perhaps being a serial killer was something he could succeed at. And I really want to break this down. So this is the prosecutor, you know, kind of saying these things about Gary Ridgway, not his defense attorney, but just this notion that being a serial

killer was something he could be successful at. And I wonder how many other killers, serial killers, have fallen into maybe this type of thought process. My life. My life. I'm Life's not going well. I'm not succeeding at anything. Maybe I don't have control of anything. Right. This is the one thing I can control. Yeah, I'm good at this. And I'm good at it. I'm successful. Yeah. And it's weird to use that term. But I do think it plays a part. I think most of us have a desire inside of us to be successful at something. Right? Especially not in killing. No, but to be successful. Yes, absolutely. You know, uh, nobody wants to be a fair. earlier. No. And if you have family members that are doing great things and you're not, you try to find that one thing that you can do really good that you get, you know, kudos for. This is something you're not going to get kudos for because nobody's going to know it's you, but you're giving yourself a pat on the back. Yeah, I think this is more of an internal.

Yeah. Feeling, uh, kudos that he's, he's getting. And obviously it probably makes him feel better and he's probably walking taller, you know, for himself. Gary had a complicated relationship. Gary had a complicated a relationship with his mother. He would later tell prosecutors that he was sexually attracted to marry and that his feelings of arousal led to feelings of hatred. Okay. This is not the first time we've heard something along these lines.

Yeah. You know, now we're getting into kind of the, what is it, the Oedipus, edipal complex type deal, have sex with the mother, kill the father, all of that stuff. he's attracted to his mother. And I wonder if these feelings of hatred led his way to wanting to kill. Yeah, it's quite possible. But, you know, it's interesting to me how often arousal slash sex is linked to hatred and violence. Yeah.

We see it time and time again. Although he said he was not sexually abused. Gary claimed that he had vivid memories of. his mother washing his genitals after he wet the bed as a young teenager. And it was said that Gary wet the bed until he was 13 years old. Well, I guess it would be a little strange if your mom was washing your stuff. Unmentionables. Yeah, when you're 12, 13 years old.

Well, young teenager has to be 13. Yeah. 12, by definition, is not a teenager. Well, that's true. A 13 year old can wash their own junk. I think most kids I'm not saying they do they have the capability to

I don't know how many of them actually wash properly but they have the capability they don't need their mommy to come in and wash their you know private parts at the age of 13. That's probably washing my junk tomb often as a teenager. I'm sure you were.

Mom's knocking on the door. You've been in the shower forever. But I, obviously I do want to talk about wetting the bed. We haven't talked about it in a while because it hasn't come up. Yeah, it really hasn't. It comes up a lot in serial killer cases and a lot of people wet the bed, right? We know it doesn't mean you're going to turn out to be a serial killer, but it is part of the triad.

It is. And people, you know, look at it. Gary told a psychologist that he fantasized about stabbing his mother saying is quoted by A&E. I thought about stabbing her in the chest or in the heart, maybe. Maybe cut her face in chest. Okay. Well, there's some anger issues there. Well, again, he's attracted to his mom.

He hates his mom. But as a kid, and let's just say he's 13 years old, I don't know exactly what point in time this is, but let's say he's 13 years old. He's fantasizing about stabbing his mother in the chest, the heart, maybe cutting up her face and chest. Pretty brutal. It's not a good sign. No.

According to the Washington Post, experts believe there was a greater pattern of inappropriate sexual contact between Gary and his mother. Well, maybe the hand washing let other things. It's possible. He said it didn't. And it just seems like some of these experts that talked to him didn't believe him. Reed Malloy, a forensic psychologist and professional. at the University of California told the post, for an adolescent, having your mother wash your genitals

would be highly exciting and arousing. But it would also be humiliating. With humiliation would come rage toward your mother. That is very common in serial murderers, displaced mattresses. Unconsciously, he is killing his mother over and over again. So, you know, this is a forensic psychologist. I'm sure he knows what he's talking about. What boy is not going to be aroused with the female washing his genitals. I mean, I don't want to get like two over my skis here, but it's going to happen. But this guy's saying as that is happening, he's being humiliated at the same time because it's his mother. Of course, yeah. So there, I think you see the arousal slash hate and maybe how it developed. Love hate. Mary allegedly abused her husband Thomas.

Time magazine reported that Gary's former wife, Marsha Winslow, said Mary completely dominated her husband and that Gary once saw her break a plate over his head at dinner. According to the news tribune, Thomas simply got up and left the room afterwards. Okay. I can tell you right now, if I'm at the dinner table and my wife comes in and breaks a plate over my head, I'm not just going to get up and go into the other room. I'm not saying I'm going to hurt her, but there are going to be some major words. I'm not just going to slink away and hide. I just wonder what, what item would be coming next your way if you didn't get up.

Yeah, I wouldn't want to find out. Now, obviously, my wife would never do that to me, but I think what this paints a picture of is a very meek kind of guy. Right. In Gary's dad and a very dominating mother. Bruce Revard, a playmate of Thomas Jr., recalled that the Ridgeways were strict parents. Mary would scream at her children and Thomas Sr. spank them. Ravard told the News Tribune, I could sit up in my tree house and look in their yard.

All I'd hear were cries of no dad no as they were. getting beaten with a belt or a stick or whatever. And I had a family like that next to me growing up. I felt bad for the boys. They got spanked, walloped, walloped all the time. Yeah. And you and I have talked about this before. When we were younger, we were disciplined in a way that doesn't really happen today or is frowned

upon today. Yeah. I'll say it that way. I'm not going to say it doesn't happen. But back then, it was much, much more common. Oh, for sure. Yeah. The boys were also not allowed to have a snack after school and had to wait to eat until their

parents came home. Bruce and Thomas would sneak into the pantry to eat. Sometimes they got caught and Thomas was punished. Okay, that I cannot relate to because when I was younger, I actually went to my grandmother's house after school. Oh. And she always had two of the little fun-sized three musketeers bars for me and a bottle of orange crush.

Oh, so she really, really loved you. Oh, she spoiled me. Yeah. It's probably why I gained quite a bit of weight in my younger years. Yeah. I had to start wearing those husky. You'd get to my space. I did.

Yeah. Now, Gary Ridgeway had no official juvenile record, but he committed a disturbing act of violence when he was 16 years old. Gary approached a six-year-old boy playing in a wooded area near his home. According to A&E, Ridgeway asked the, boy if he wanted to build a fort with him. And then a few minutes later, he stabbed the boy in the abdomen with a folding knife. The wound punctured the boy's liver. The kid ran away and was ultimately taken to the hospital. Okay. That's not playing around. No, thing back to when, you know, you were

younger. Okay, did things happen? You know, the rough housing got a little too rough and somebody got her, yes. But here's my thought, what 16 year old boy wants to go out of his way to play with a six year old? Not most of them. No. Most 16 year old boys are either trying to date someone or they're hanging out with their friends or whatever. It seems to me like he targeted this kid for the sole purpose of stabbing him. Yeah, to hurt him. According to the Seattle Times, Gary, approached him and said, you know, there's, uh, there's people around here that, that like to kill little boys like you. The victim later testified that Gary said, I always wanted to know what it felt like to kill someone. Scary phrase. Yeah. And, and a scary thought, because we have heard it

many, many times. People in their minds starting to wonder what it would feel like to kill someone. Yeah. But what I thought was so extraordinary was that Gary was not arrested or charged for this incident. See, and that bugs me. That's a problem. Why wasn't he? I get it. He was a juvenile.

But that was a serious crime, I feel. Yeah. I mean, he could have been arrested as a juvenile, charged as a juvenile, sent off to a juvenile facility. And maybe if he was, could he have received some help that would have curtailed what he did later in life? Maybe. Maybe. Now, we've seen a lot of people who have gone the juvenile route, didn't seem to help them. They got out. They did stuff. But I still think you have to do what you think is best. And then whatever happens later, it's, it's going to happen. But doing nothing to me just sounds very strange. Gary graduated high school in 1969. Before graduation, he got a job at

Kenworth Trucking Company in Renton, Washington. The big boy, trucking. That's the big rigs. Yeah. Kenwurst. He enlisted in the Navy on August 18th, 1969. Gary served in the military during the Vietnam War. Greg Ridgeway said about Gary's time in Vietnam. As quoted by Time Magazine, he spent his time on rivers and patrol boats being shot at.

These were things we didn't talk about, his anger about things in Vietnam, if there was any. So this is kind of giving me like a pocket. now type of vibes. Yeah, sure. You know, there's parts of that movie where they're, you know, going down the river and those little boats being shot at. And I had an uncle who was in Vietnam and I think I've told this story before, but it was something that he absolutely would not talk about ever. And he was very open with me about things he probably shouldn't have been. Right. But that was one subject that was off limit. Yeah. It was so harrowing, I assume, that he just didn't even want to discuss it at all.

Yeah. Yeah, I worked with a guy when I was at UPS that was in that same war. And there was certainly a number of items he just did not want to talk about, no matter if someone pressed them pretty hard on it or not. Gary hired sex workers while he was stationed in the Philippines. Four months after joining the Navy, he was diagnosed with Gronom. Maria. Well, that happens when you, you know, are having indiscriminate unprotected sex. Yes, that can happen. Gary met a 19-year-old girl named Claudia Craig in Seattle. Gary and Claudia got married on August 15th,

1970 and moved to San Diego. Gary was soon deployed for six months. While he was gone, Claudia was involved with another man. When he came home, Claudia was living with a friend, and male roommate. Okay, never good. No, never good. Gary was discharged from the Navy on July 23rd, 1971. He and Claudia tried to work on their marriage, but in August of that year, she left him. Gary filed for divorce in September, and the divorce was finalized in January 1972. I'm surprised he even tried after all that. Yeah, some people do. Some people don't. You know, I think it depends on the person. you know, do you love someone so much that you're willing to try to work through it? Or does that just cut you so deeply to your core that you can never get past it?

Gary returned to his job painting trucks at the Kenworth Trucking Company. He would keep this job for 30 years. It's amazing knowing that's what he was doing, but yet doing this other thing on the side. Yeah, and I think we're going to talk about it, right? Gary Ridgeway was not Tommy Lynn sells. He wasn't jumping on trains, not working, and just kind of hoboing it around. I know that's not a verb, but I just made it into one. I noticed that.

You know, he had roots. He had the same job for 30 years. Yeah. Stable. Yeah. You would have to say stable. Anybody that can work at the same place for 30 years, I mean, stable is a good word to use.

But Gary's coworkers were shocked when he was. arrested in charge with murder, almost all of them thought he was just a perfectly normal guy. Well, we used to talk about when we worked together, there was an individual that we worked with that we said, oh, we wouldn't be really surprised if one day we heard. That this person was a serial killer? Yeah. Yeah, I've worked with a number of people like them. Now, everybody that we've ever worked with that is listening would be like, are they talking about me? No, it wasn't that. I hope they're not talking about me. Grant Lowe, A former plant manager told the Seattle Times about Ridgeway as a coworker.

He was a steady Eddie. He was a very normal employee, very trouble free. I wouldn't say he was shy, but he wouldn't go out of his way to engage people. Socially, he got along. But if you'd have told me yesterday, he was a serial killer, I would have said no way. Nothing in his behavior would suggest that. He was very good at hiding at it. Well, and here's my thought.

You have to be. to get away with committing as many murders as Gary Ridgeway did for over 20 years. Yeah. He had all of these people snowed. They had no idea who the real Gary Ridgeway was. I think there's some people out there that are really good at hiding who they really are. You know, I mean, you could be sitting across from the desk from them right now thinking they're this person. But really, you don't know what they do after they leave your area.

Yeah, I think that can be said about a lot of people. and a lot of things. The Seattle Times reported that Gary often wore jeans and a plaid or cowboy shirt to work. He did his hair in what was called an outdated 50 style. And he combed his mustache. One coworker told the Times, he was so particular about his appearance. He reminded me of a rooster in a chicken yard.

He held his head high and almost strutted. Sounds like, you know, he's rocking like this Elvis, um, hairdo. Yeah. And, you know, just strutting around. Cock of the walk.

Cock of the walk. Yeah. Okay. We'll leave that one right there. Another coworker said, we've all had people who tried too hard to be your friend. That was Gary. He was out of the way friendly, creepy friendly, just goofy. I've never heard someone used a phrase creepy friendly.

Creepy friendly. But I get it. For sure. Because I have known. some people like this. It's like they want to come up while you're having a conversation and just kind of stand there and join in, but they don't fit in. If that makes sense, they're trying to. They don't understand how awkward it is. Yeah, they're trying really hard to kind of jump into this conversation or whatever it is. One coworker who had known Gary for 24 years recalled him

volunteering to help him find a sex worker a few months before he was arrested. Okay. So he knew this guy for 24 years. I'm assuming this guy didn't use his name for a reason. Because he just admitted that Gary Ridgway helped him find a sex worker. Hey, Gary, having a little rough time. You know where I can get a sex worker at? Several women at work said Gary made them feel uncomfortable.

He approached women from behind to massage their shoulders and necks and made comments about their appearances. Yeah, that's a big no-no. You know, sexual harassment in the workplace, I don't know when that really became a huge topic. You know, if you look back at a show like Mad Men, the whole work environment was basically one big sexual harassment case. Oh, sure was. Yeah. You're talking about the 50s, 60s, and probably still into the 70s and 80s. I don't really know. I don't really know. when that became the way that it is now and the way that it should have been. Right.

It took longer than it should have for sure. As does everything. Yeah. Right. In 1972, Gary met a woman named Marsha Winslow. During their first meeting, he pulled her over as if he were a police officer. And that's something that you do a lot. I don't condone it.

I've told you not to. You got this whole Dwight in the office thing. I do. Like you're a volunteer. Sheriff's deputy. This is Officer West. Yep. But they got married in December 1973 after living together for a year.

Gary's only child, Matthew Ridgeway was born in 1975. Matthew spoke to detectives after his father was arrested in 2001. He described his dad as quiet with few friends. He was frugal, struggle with his words, and made lists because he had a hard time remembering things. He also said that his dad was always there for his school functions. I mean, if we get any more like you, Gibby, with Gary Ridgeway, it is starting to get scary. You are extremely frugal.

You do sometimes struggle with some of your words. Maybe, allegedly. But you are a great dad. Yeah. You're always there for your kids. You show up for everything. And I'm making a list, but not the list. I just made the top of the list, didn't I?

Yeah, you keep moving up and down on that list. Matthew said they spent their weekends driving to garage sales and swap meets. Apparently, Gary liked to buy broken things and fix them up. They also went camping, played baseball and road motorcycles. Sounds like a pretty good time for a kid. Yeah. It sounds like good dad stuff, right? Gary and Marsha separated in July 1980.

Marsha filed for divorce and a restraining order later that month. Gary filed for his own restraining order. in August. Both said they feared the other person could become violent. The divorce was finalized in May 1981. So it doesn't sound like it was going very well at all at the end. Well, I think it got started off in the wrong way too, you know, when you're pulled over and he's acting like he's a police officer and then you end up getting married. I just wonder at what point did she realize that he was never a police officer? I think she realized right away. He was the police officer. I don't think it took her long. I mean,

I think she married him, so she must have thought, well, either this is a very interesting way for him to want to meet me if he's willing to go to these links or something along those lines. Are you telling me you thought that she thought he was a police officer the whole time she was married? I'm just wondering, you know, at some point you have to ask yourself. No, I don't. I already knew the answer. But she should have said, you know, she should think, I don't know. is this something he was doing regularly until he pulled me over and, you know, I must have hit the

right buttons and he wanted to get married to me, fell in love with me. Gary had visitation with Matthew every other weekend and had to pay $275 a month in child support. We're talking about in 1981 here, Gibbs. How much do you think that child support would be today? I would say it's only going to be like 400, 500, 500 bucks, because unfortunately I don't think support payments rise with inflation the way that other things rise. I did not know that. Yeah.

That's terrible because everything else has risen very, very high. I know. Gas, food. Matthew said that his connection with his father strengthened when he enlisted in the Marines in 1994. But obviously Matthew had no idea that his father was a serial killer. His mother told him that Gary was once arrested for solicit. but he never talked about it with him.

I can see where their bond grew, you know, Matthew joining the Marines, which is, you know, an off branch of the Navy. His dad's a Navy guy. So they're hitting it off, you know, the both of them military guys. Marsha said in court documents that Gary liked bondage, having sex outside, and sneaking up on her in the woods to scare her. She said that he once choked her from behind in their dog. driveway. Okay. So I think we have to look at all of these separately. Are there husbands and wives that are

into bondage? Of course. And the answer is yes. Yeah. If you both agree to it and that's what you're into, let it fly, right? Having sex outside, a little different, you know, depending on where you are. Of course. Yeah. Could be illegal. Oh, well, you have a town public. Yeah. You're outside. sneaking up on her in the woods to scare her. Okay, that could be playful. It could be. But once you get to choking someone from behind in the driveway, there's no way to spin that one.

Yeah, unless it's something she's wanted, you know. I mean, for some people, this could be a good Saturday night. There are people that are into choking, but that's not what I'm taking from this. According to Time magazine, Marcia said that Gary became fanatical about religion in the 70s and even went door to door proselytizing for his church. He was infuriated when people didn't listen to him. Okay.

Gary Ridgeway would have been infuriated if he knocked on my door. Of course you would have. And it really has nothing about religion. I just don't want to hear what anybody has to say who knocks on my door. No, you don't. I remember, what was it, two years ago, you carried that Girl Scout. It's trying to just sell you cookies. See, now that's how.

everyone knows that that statement is false because I would never turn away Girl Scout cookies. And my wife would actually break a dish over my head if I didn't buy. Girl Scout cookies? Thin men's. She loves those thin men. Oh my gosh. Who doesn't? They're amazing.

They're addictive. But here's where, you know, to me, this becomes so strange, right? So he becomes very religious. He's going door to door, trying to get people to listen to him about. you know, the church, while at the same time paying for sex workers behind his wife's back. Yeah, he's not doing as he's preaching. And that's what I understand about, you know, when these people say they're very religious and then you find out that they're doing all these things that are against what they say they believe in. Right. Have we seen, uh, was it in the 80s? A lot of

big time preachers. Oh, yeah, you can talk about, uh, Tammy, and what's the guy's name she was married to? Yeah. You know who I'm talking about. Yeah. Jim Baker. Yeah. And he was having affairs and I just don't understand it.

Right. You know, I think a lot of that was just about money. Of course. But when the two separated, Gary threatened to shoot Marsha's boyfriend. Gary would later say that he thought about killing both Marcia and his son, Matthew. And we'll talk about this more in part two. but just think about that. Okay, have people gotten upset with their exes after a divorce?

Did the thought cross their mind to hurt them? Maybe. But you're talking about shooting your wife and your son? Yeah, you're throwing your kid into it now. In 1981, Gary purchased the house near Pacific Highway South. He later claimed that he killed dozens of women in his bedroom there. Thomas Jensen, a lead detective in the Green River Killer case, told A&E, Gary spent his entire life knowing he was different, but trying to fit in.

He did not want to be viewed as a pervert. Well, maybe this is why he went door to door trying to preach. Maybe it made him feel like he wasn't so perverted. Even though he was doing all these other things on the side, maybe. And could you view that as also trying to fit in? Of course. He's trying to fit in at church. So he's going to do, you know, some of these things that other people

are doing. Bridgeway was interested in deviant sex and according to A&E had an insatiable desire for sex. Okay. I think we have to break those two things down. What do they mean by deviant? And I guess you have to define that and an insatiable desire for sex. Yeah. Because I'm sure there are some people listening right now who say, okay, maybe I have that. Right. Maybe you do. Good. A lot of people do. Doesn't mean they're, they're going to hurt somebody. No. And I also think that there are some people who are into maybe what is called quote, unquote, deviant sex.

But does that involve hurting people? And I don't know that the definition does, but I don't know what they mean by that. Because Ridgeway interacted with a large number of sex workers, the number of women who survived encounters with him is unknown. However, a few women have come forward to show. share their stories. Jill McCabe Johnson met a man named Gary in 1980 or 1981. She was out at a country Western dance hall in Seattle and Gary gave her a ride home. She showed him where her bathroom was, but he followed her into the bedroom. Now, she said she didn't get the sense that

he was dangerous. They talked about his troubled marriage and then had sex. He left soon after her roommates came home. She said Gary never asked her out again, but she did see him in the parking lot of her apartment a few times. It'd be a little freaky, wasn't it? A little bit. Yeah, I mean, it's a little stockery-ish. But when Gary was arrested in 2001, she realized that he might have been the man she encountered 20 years earlier. She wrote to him, but as of 2021 when this article was written, she hadn't heard back from him. I think there's a lot of people. people like this. And we've actually heard from a lot of people who have had encounters with these serial killer. Right. Now, there may have been nothing wrong with the encounter. But after the

fact, when you find out that the person was a serial killer, okay, it puts the encounter in a much different light. I wonder why you'd write somebody like that, though. I think she wanted to know if he was the man that she met back then. What does that do for? What does that do? for you make you feel like, ooh, I got lucky or, or is it more like, hey, was there something wrong with me that I wasn't one of your victims? Are you telling me you wouldn't be curious? I don't know. I don't know if I would need to know.

Oh, I would have to know. Would you? That would nag me. Yeah. Just I wouldn't, I couldn't think of nothing else. Would you want to know also why he let you live? No. No?

No, because I'm sure no serial killer kills everyone they encounter. Right. you know, what causes them to, to make the decision to kill. Yeah. You know, we don't always know that. No. And they don't always tell us that. Well, that's true.

In 1982, young women began disappearing or were found dead in King County, Washington. Ridgeway later confessed that he brought many victims to his home and strangled them, then disposed of the bodies in wooded areas. Some victims were even found in the Portland area. The first five victims were found in, or near the Green River, which is why the press called Ridgeway the Green River killer. Now, we're going to talk about victims, but we've already said he pleaded guilty to 49 murders. We're not going to be able to go through each and every murder and victim and talk about

it in detail. That would take seven or eight episodes to get through all that. It'd be a bit. In May 1982, Gary was charged and found guilty of solicitation. for approaching an undercover officer. The Green River murder started about two months after he was arrested. And I think you could make something of this. Again, I would be speculating, but could it be that he was afraid to go back to sex

workers? He was afraid of being arrested again, encountering another undercover detective. So he chose to go a different route. Very possible. Possible. Yeah. Many believe that his first victim was 36-year-old Damina Agashev. Amina was last seen on July 7th, 1982, leaving her apartment in Seattle.

Her body was not found until April 18, 1984, near Highway 18 and Interstate 90. Ridgeway later denied killing her. It was also noted that she did not fit the victim profile due to her age and the fact that she was not a sex worker or a teen runaway. And I do think this is very tough when you're dealing with a serial killer like Gary Ridgeway because the numbers are so astronomical that there are a lot of murders that you're going to question whether or not he was involved in. It's hard not to. On July 15th, 1982, two teenagers found the body of 16-year-old. Two teenagers found the body of 16-year-old Wendy Cofield floating in the Green River near Kent, Washington. Wendy had been

strangled. She was last seen at a state receiving home in Tacoma on July 8th. Over the next few weeks, four more bodies were found in or along the banks of the Green River. All of the victims were young women and had been strangled. On August 12, 1982, 23-year-old Deborah Lynn Bonner was found dead in the Green River near a slaughterhouse in Kent. Deborah went missing on July 25th. The police linked her murder to the murder of Wendy Cofield and Leanne Wilcox. Leanne was thought to be a victim of the Green River killer, but Ridgeway did not plead guilty to murdering her.

Three more bodies were found on August 15th. 31-year-old Marcia Chapman was found in shallow water near the body of 17-year-old Cynthia Hines and 16-year-old Opel Charmaine Mills was found in nearby undergrowth. Opel Mills had blue pants knotted around her neck. Her breasts were exposed and she had bruises on her arms and legs. Marsha Chapman was last seen on August 1st, heading to work on the C-Tac strip. Cynthia Hines was last seen on August 11th near the C-Tac strip. Opel was last seen on August 12th at a phone booth off the C-Tac-Tac-Ect.

strip. So, I mean, you think about this situation, a number of girls and women being found, strangled, same area along the river. You got to, you have to start to think possible serial killers. This is the work of the same person, most likely. And it's all happening in a short period of time at this, at this moment. Yeah. I mean, when you think about three bodies being found on the same day. I'm sure the media had a field day. Yeah, I mean, this would have had to have been, you know, really big breaking story. On August 16th, the King County Sheriff's Office established the Green River Task Force. It would take the task force almost 20 years to arrest the killer. And over the next two years, over 40 women were killed. So we said he pleaded guilty to 49

murders and that they took place over, you know, around a 20-year period of time. Yeah. But then when you narrow it down to 40 murders in a two-year span, that means you're murdering almost two people a month. Yeah. They're busy. That is wild to think about being able to do that at such a rape. Yeah.

Let alone doing it at all. But being so prolific. Gary first became a suspect in the Green River murders on April 30th, 1983. When 18-year-old Marie Malvar went missing, Marie was a young sex worker. On April 30th, her boyfriend Robert Woods saw her getting into a paint-patched pickup with a dark-haired man who appeared to be between 30 and 40 years old. She never came back. He reported her missing four days later.

Robert and Marie's family decided. they would go out and look for the truck themselves. They found the truck, which was easily recognizable because it had patches of primer on it. It was sitting out in front of a house that belonged to Gary Ridgeway. Can we back up and ask the question of why this guy waited four days to report her missing? It's a bit of time to go, it's a bit of time to let go by. Yeah, I mean, I get it. She was a sex worker.

Did he want that to be known? Maybe he thought, I should just. wait, but it seems like a long time. But then you have Robert and the family kind of finding this truck that he saw. On May 4th, the police questioned Gary at his home about Marie. He denied knowing her. The police talked to him again in November 1983, but he denied having knowledge of any of the Green River victims. Well, he must have been very convincing. Yeah, I don't know how convincing he had to be because let's think about what the police had. An eyewitness statement saying that this looked like the truck that she got into.

That's not a lot. You're not going to convict somebody on that alone. Right. Now, in 2003, Gary Ridgway told the police that he stood against the fence to hide the scratches that Marie left on his arm when she tried to escape. He burned his scratches with battery acid to disguise them once the detectives left his home. Gary then buried Marie's body after speaking to the police. Her body was found in Auburn, Washington in September 2003. So they had the right guy.

They did. They just didn't know it. And they didn't have the proof that they needed to arrest him or anything like that. But let's just talk about the links that he went to. burning yourself with battery acid. Extreme. To disguise scratches, which I assume would have probably healed on their own at some point.

Maybe he was just worried they would come back. Yeah, he must have been to go to that length. But then right after talking to police, he buries her body. During the original Green River investigation, the police didn't have enough evidence to connect Gary Ridgeway to the crimes, and the task force was still working on

identifying the killer. On November 20th, 1983, the police announced that one man had killed 11 women in South King County since the summer of 1982. And I think that's important, right? Establishing the fact that this is one person committing all these murders. That means you have a serial killer on your hand. Yeah. And if you're living in South King County, you're nervous. On February 20th, 1984, a letter was sent to the Seattle Post-Intelligencer. The letter included details about the murders that had not been made public. According to the Seattle Times, FBI profiler John Douglas described the writer of the letter as a subject to his average in intelligence and one who is making a feeble and amateurish

attempt to gain some personal importance by manipulating the investigation. I wonder if Gary felt good. that he was messing with the authorities. Well, I feel like he had to. I don't understand why these people write in for any reason but that, right? They're getting some kind of kick out of maybe poking the police, that feeling of,

well, I'm smarter than they are. They'll never catch me, that type of thing. But now we have John Douglas. And you know who you don't want to have, profiling you? John Douglas. Well, he is a mine hunter. Yeah, the original mind hunter. In his later confession, Ridgeway confirmed that he wrote the letter, but said he didn't remember

writing it. Well, how do you confirm that you wrote it if you don't remember writing? I guess maybe he's looking at the handwriting and saying, yeah, that's mine, but I don't remember it? Or it sounds like something I would have done. Gary was questioned on April 12, 1984 by a detective, about 18-year-old Kelly McGinnis, who was last seen on June 28, 1983. Gary admitted that he had picked her up in the summer of 83 and that he was questioned by a police officer before he took her to a motel. According to the Seattle Times, they were parked near a Little League baseball field close to where another victim would be found.

Gary said that he had seen Kelly on the Pacific Highway South Strip with other women. During his interview, he admitted that he had. paid sax workers somewhere between five to ten times. Now, that could be true, that could not be true. You know, it could be hundreds of times. Sure. I just thought it was strange that he chose a little league baseball field or, you know, anywhere near a little league baseball field to be alone with this woman.

Maybe he thought, you know, he didn't have to worry about anybody coming by if the games weren't going on around that time. Yeah, that makes sense. I kind of in my head was envisioning games happening, but most likely they were not. Gary was not charged with the murder of Kelly McGinnis. In May 1984, Ridgeway contacted the police under the guise of offering assistance in the case. Oh my gosh, how many times have we heard this? Many times.

And what does it mean every time? Well, not every time because there are people that offer their assistance. But why do these killers get such a. a thrill out of, you know, going to the police and saying, hey, I'm offering my assistance. You don't know it, but I'm the killer. I mean, I know why they get to thrill. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Why take that chance? I think they just really feel like they're smarter than the police. Either that or the thrill outweighs the risk in their mind. And I do think that's a big part of the mindset of someone like a Gary Ridgeway, right? There's all kinds of risk to what you're

doing. If you get caught, you're going to die or spend the rest of your life in prison, but whatever thrill you're getting from what you're doing obviously outweighs that risk or you wouldn't be doing it. That's for sure. He passed two polygraphs where he denied killing any victims, one in 1984 and one in 1986. He said about taking the polygraph, according to the Seattle Times. I just relaxed and took the polygraph. I mean, I didn't practice or anything. Just relaxed and answered the questions.

And whatever it came out came out. I mean, they weren't precise or I don't know what the deal was. Maybe I was too relaxed. So again, why we don't put so much stock in polygraph? If Gary Ridgeway can pass two of them. Right. Kind of tells you. It tells you a little bit.

In 1984, the police aired at a PSA about the Green River killer titled, Someone Out There Know Something. That was when another survivor named Rebecca Gardy came forward. It sounds like what we talk about on every episode of Unsolved. Someone out there knows something. For sure. In November, 1982, 20-year-old Rebecca. was hitchhiking home after work, Gary Ridgeway picked her up and offered her $20 in exchange for a sexual act.

She agreed and they drove to a trailer park. But Gary suggested they go into the woods. Gary tried to cover her nose and mouth and choked her. She managed to push him to a tree. In a 2010 interview with CNN, Rebecca said that during the attack, she was thinking, no, this is not my time. I want to grow up. I want to get married. I want to have babies.

I was like, this guy is not going to kill me. Okay. Badass. Yeah. Love it. Absolutely. Now, not everyone, obviously in this story,

survived like Rebecca did. But you have to applaud the fight. Yeah, you do. And I'm sure there were other women who put up a fight too that ended up losing their lives. But we know about her because she lived to tell. her story, she ran to a nearby trailer and was led inside. She didn't go to the police immediately because she worried she would get in trouble for her

history of sex work and drug use, but she decided to come forward over a year later. And it's important that people do come forward. It is, but when you think about sex workers, you know, is it one of the reasons why so many serial killers over the years have targeted sex workers? Number one, they're more likely to get into your car. Sure. Let's say than other people. But number two, if something goes wrong, are they less likely to go to the police because they were doing something that is deemed illegal or, you know, something along those lines?

And that's kind of sad when you think about it. It is. You would think there'd be something in place where if someone came forward and had credible information. they would get immunity or pass on whatever they were doing at the time. Because if not, then where's the benefit of coming forward? Yeah, there's no incentive for them to move forward with it. But she did, right? She told A&E that she gathered her courage and called the police.

She had seen Gary's work ID on the night of the attack. So she knew the name of the trucking company he worked for. and she identified Gary Ridgeway in a photo lineup. In an interview that took place on February 23rd, 1985, Gary admitted that he choked a woman back in November 1982, but said he did because she bit him. A detective asked if he was responsible for any of the 42 missing or dead women. Gary said, no, he was not involved.

Rachel eventually dropped the charges, but her report further put Gary on police radar. Okay, he's on police radar. are. And I feel like they've already interviewed him so many time. Now, he obviously did pass two polygraphs. And this was back during a time where they did place quite a bit of emphasis on polygraph tests. Yeah, they really did. And so every time he's interviewed, they're asking him this question, you know, have you murdered these women? And he's saying, no. No, it wasn't me. Wasn't me. In 1987, Gary Ridgeway met his third wife, Judith Lynch. They got married in 1988. Judith would later say that she was shocked

when her husband was arrested. She thought he was a good husband and said he made her feel like a newlywood. Catherine, Ramsland, a forensic psychology and criminal justice professor told A&E, Gary treated Judith well. She'd had a terrible prior marriage, so she was grateful to have found what seemed like a good man in comparison. And I'll tell you what, Gibbs. I think Catherine Ramsland is one of the smartest people I've ever met. Yeah. Morph and I had her on criminology. She is out of this world intelligent and so good at what she does. Neighbors thought Gary and Judith seemed like a nice, normal couple. Before the wedding, Gary was still living on Pacific Highway South, but he and Judith moved to Kent Washington. Gary's old neighbors knew that he was a suspect in the Green River case,

but they also knew he hadn't been charred. Okay, we talk about neighbors a lot. You know, you have neighbors that don't cut their grass. You have neighbors that don't bring in their garbage cans. You have some neighbors who are suspected of being the Green River killer. These are on different levels. Very different levels of my concern about my neighbors. Now, they haven't charged him. And again, What are you going to do? You're going to sell your house because your neighbor may or may not be the Green River killer? Yeah. I don't know. It's up to you. You got to make that decision. How is that going to work out for you too once the buyer finds out? Well, what's going to happen once it's determined he is the killer? Oh, it's definitely going to be worse. To the property values in that neighborhood.

Some of Gary's neighbors disliked him because he and Judith had trees on their property cut down when they moved in. But they soon got used to him. He and Judith were often seen. walking their poodle around the neighborhood. One neighbor said about Gary and Judith, as quoted by the Seattle Times, they adored each other. They did absolutely everything together. They walked the dog together. They garden together.

When you're around people who really care deeply about each other and are always considerate of each other, you can tell. So I want to break this down a little bit because I'm envisioning a serial killer walking his poodle. I was thinking the same thing. And it seems like such an odd vision. It does. And gardening and, you know, doing all these things. But that's the rub, right? That's what we talk about. At home, Gary Ridgeway is like Ward Cleaver. Yeah. You know, he's taken out the trash. He's going on walks with his wife. He's gardening with his wife. But at the same time, he's killing people. For sure, yeah. But just sounds like Judith brought out the best of him when he was home. Well, that could be true or it could be that he made sure to put his best foot forward at home

because he didn't, you know, want her to suspect anything. Or it could be that he just truly loved her. Yeah. But was still somehow compelled or able to do, you know, these really best. bad things that he did. Catherine Ramsland offered an explanation for how serial killers like Ridgeway can live double life. She said, since it doesn't bother them, they don't give much away. Successful serial killers with families are able to hide by partitioning their lives and protecting their secrets.

As long as they have families that accept their normal persona and don't probe too deeply, they can usually arrange their lives to have the time to kill. And it makes me think a little bit about Dexter. You know, one point in that show, Dexter got married. And so, you know, he had to kind of partition thing. Yeah. He had his time at home with his wife. They ultimately had a baby.

I'm not giving anything away. You haven't seen Dexter yet by now. It's, that's on you. But then he had his other life. Yeah. where he was out killing. Doing the thing that he did. And I think we see that a lot of serial killers are able to do this.

You know, from the John Wayne Gacy's to, you name it. People are able to have families. Yeah. And their families have no idea. They have successful jobs. This guy had the same job for what,

30 years, 25, 30 years. They just compartmentalize and they have, this other part that they keep completely secret. Another neighbor told the Seattle Times that Gary was fixated on the problem of sex workers in their neighborhood saying he'd go door to door and tell neighbors, did you know prostitutes are having sex in cars on the street and throwing condoms out the windows? So again, a little bit here like he was going door to door with the church.

Right. Kind of acting like he's shocked or he was. wants this problem taking care of. Meanwhile, he's out not only visiting sex workers, he's killing them. The majority of the murders were committed in 1982 and 1983 with a few more cases in the following years. Investigators spent thousands of hours trying to identify the Green River killer. And Gary Ridgeway remained a suspect throughout the entire investigation. And I think it's one of the things that has drawn so many, you know, people to this case. Number one, how prolific a serial killer this guy was.

But I think number two, how long he was able to get away with it, given the fact that he was on police radar essentially about the entire time. Yeah, they were aware of who he was. And that he potentially could be the, the Green River killer. It was just like they couldn't put. anything together on him. So in wrapping up this first part, Gibbs, you know, the couple of things that that I'm drawn to. Number one, just a magnitude of what this guy did, the carnage that he left in his wake and how he was able to get away with it for so long, you know, during the span, he had, you know, two or three different wives. He had, you know, he had a child. He had a child.

He had a poodle. But yet, no matter what changed in his personal life, the one thing that didn't change was whatever was compelling him to go out and kill. It sounds like in this third marriage, it was really good. Yeah, seems like it. But that wasn't enough. He had that underlying desire to do what he did. And at that point, you can't stop.

And that's kind of what I. I think. I just think very few serial killers, true serial killers can stop killing on their own. Whatever that compulsion, frog demon, whatever you want to call it is down deep inside them that drives them to kill, it just doesn't magically go away. I think they can hold it down for a while. For periods of time. But eventually it bubbles up. Yeah. I think for most people, it's too overwhelming. the need inside them and they're just not going to stop until they're caught. Yeah. Because we know most don'ts. In part two of the Green River Killer episodes, we'll discuss the remainder of the known murder cases, how Ridgeway was finally arrested almost 20 years later

after the first known murders and some modern developments in the Green River case. So that's it for episode one. But we've got some voicemails. You want to check those out? Let's hear them. Hi, Mike. Hi, Givie. My name is Paine. I am from Lewiston, Idaho. I am a longtime listener, first time caller. I was calling because I am finally caught up on TCAT as well as TCAT installed. So I told myself once I had finished through all the podcast that I would become a Patreon member.

So look forward to that sometime soon. Don't spend it all in one place. However, I did want. want to make a case suggestion for you. It happened in, um, around the Cortaline area and, uh, it was a level three sex offender. His name was Joseph Edward Duncan, the third. He had killed a whole family and it was just a case that's always just stuck with me. And, um, I'm a, I'm a huge fan of the show and I look forward to episodes each week.

Thank you. And keep your own time taken. I don't know why that sounds so familiar, Gibbs, but I just looked. We haven't done it. So make sure it's on the list and we'll get on it. Appreciate that, page. Yeah, absolutely. Hey, boys.

It's James calling from Ottawa, Canada. Really enjoy your podcast. I've been listening to it for a couple years now and I find it very interesting. There was one story I thought you should maybe check into it. So it's a big story from Canada up here is the, Donnelly family murders, basically just outside of Lebanon, Ontario, Lambeth Forest area.

Basically, the town murdered a whole family. I'm sure you've heard of it. There's been some books, but it's a very interesting story, and there's lots of things to see or to read on the internet about it. So it'd be great if you did an expose on that. I appreciate it and keep out the great work. Thanks, guys.

All right. Thanks for the call from Ottawa. you know, there are some places in Canada that I truly want to visit. Yeah. I've been to Canada, but just not to like the big cities. I want to go to some of the big cities, Toronto. You got to leave your basement. Well, I'd have to leave my basement.

Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I'll get there. I'll get there. But we'll make sure that's on the list. We'll check it out. We had one thing in the mailbag.

There's actually two things, but they were both from our great friend, Mary Beth Long. Love Mary Beth. One package for you, one package for me. They pretty much had the same thing in them, but just amazing stuff. It's like you can tell when a listener has been with us a long time because they know what we like because we've talked about it, you know, on different episodes or whatever. But there's like a serial killer spoon cereal with the sea. Yeah. There's a great charm from the Elizabeth Smart Foundation, which is amazing.

amazing, just some really nice things. Artwork for the studio. Mary Beth is one of our biggest supporters. So thanks to you, Mary Beth, very, very much. All right, buddy, that is it. Okay. For another episode of True Crime all the time. So for Mike and Gabby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.