True Crime All The Time - Gary Ridgway - The Green River Killer Part 2

Episode Date: September 25, 2023

Gary Ridgway is a man widely known as the Green River Killer. At one point, he was considered America’s “deadliest convicted serial killer,” after pleading guilty to 49 counts of murder. Over 20 years, Ridgway strangled an unknown number of women, most of whom were sex workers in King County, Washington.Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the notorious serial killer Gary Ridgway. In part two of the Green River Killer episodes, we will discuss the remainder of the known murder cases, how Ridgway was finally arrested almost 20 years after the first known murders, and recent developments in the Green River case. You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 351 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in True Crime, Mike Gibson. How are you? Hey man, I'm doing good. How about yourself? I'm doing very well. You and I just had one of the best burritos, a little carneasada action. I don't know that I just put it in my mouth and bit down and that's all I know.

Okay. Very good. You want to take that back or you want to stay with that? It's out there. It's out there. and I'm not I'm not editing it let's go ahead and give our Patreon shoutouts we had Lindsay Hall hey Lindsay Terry Lynn Elise Luff hey appreciate that Tara Lynn F F F F F well thank you F molly molly Tracy hadlock gins hey what's up gins Bernie Lomax hey Bernie Mara madrano hey appreciate that madrono

Mary shower jumped out to our highest level well that's amazing thank you Mary Dylan hey good old Dylan Erica Stevens there's Erica Natty. What's happening, Natty? Good old Amanda. Oh, yeah, good old Amanda. Lisa Mendoo. Hey, Lisa.

Lisa M. Colts. What's up, Colts? Kelly Garvey, Honor, jumped out of our highest level. How you doing, Honor? Zena Armstrong. Hey, Zena. And last but not least, a Raz Zingin. That's a different name.

Yeah. Genie. Yeah. Awesome. And then if we go back into the vault, this week, we selected Starla Sin. Hey, thanks, Starla. Yeah, I appreciate all.

the new support, the continued support on Patreon. We had a great PayPal donation from Victoria Charbans. I appreciate that, Victoria. Thanks to everyone. Gibbs, we just got done playing a little Patreon game, an IMDB movie game. Yeah, nailed it. No, you didn't. But it was fun.

Yeah, it was. It was hard because, you know, we're looking at like the top 250 movies, rated. Right. And some that you think should be in there or not, some that you don't think should be as high as they are. Are. So it was interesting.

Also, right now out on true crime all the time on salt, we have an episode on Elizabeth and Gil. Yeah. Just two years old goes missing from her front yard in 1965. Yeah, pretty scary. It is. All right, buddy. Are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time?

I'm ready. We're recording this right before we're getting ready to leave for CrimeCon. So that's right. This episode will be out probably at the time that we're coming back. But we're on to part two of the Green River Killer, Gary Ridgeway. In part one, we covered Gary Ridgeway's childhood and adult life. We also talked about some of the murders he committed in the early 1980s. Now, in part two, we'll discuss the.

remainder of the known murder cases, how Ridgeway was finally arrested, almost 20 years after the first known murders and recent developments in the Green River case. And it kind of blew me away last week when we were talking about it and it still does. This man was able to do what he did for almost 20 years. Oh yeah. 20 years is such a long time. And he was on the radar for part of that time too. Quite a bit of it. Yeah. It sounds like. In 1986, lead investigator detective Dave Reichert spoke with serial killer Ted Bundy about the Green River killer. Bundy wrote to Detective Reichert offering his help in the case. Rikert then flew to Florida to speak to Bundy. Bundy advised the police that the killer could be revisiting the victim's bodies and performing sexual acts on them. And Gary Ridgway

later confirmed this hypothesis. Yeah. Freaky, huh? And, you know, to me, that gives me a little bit of silence of the lambs type vibes. Yeah. And maybe that's where they got that from. I, there's something in the back of my mind that makes me think that that could possibly be true. But, you know, here's the thing. And it's kind of like the show Mind Hunter that we talk about all time that we love that we wish would come back, who is going to know better about, you know, what makes some of these killers tick, how they think than an actual serial killer. What serial killer would you love to sit across from and ask 20 questions? Yeah, I don't know if love is the right word.

Probably not. But if, you know, if I had to pick one, it would probably be. I don't, I'm going to go with Gacy. Yeah. Yeah. Gacy fascinates me. You know, they all do to some degree. But yeah, maybe.

Maybe Ed Kemper just because of the mind hunter and, you know, all of that. Yeah. But be interesting, though, wouldn't it? It would be. No doubt about it. Bundy wrote to Detective Dave Reichert, according to the website, Grunge. Don't ask me why I believe I'm an expert in this area. Just accept that I am.

and we'll start from there. You know, Bundy was such a character. He was. Such an interesting guy. And that's a strange word to use, smart. Obviously, devious and deadly and nasty and all that, but very intelligent. And a little side of charisma. Yeah.

Yeah, he had that too. Investigators obtained Ridgeway's credit card receipts and saw that he purchased a lot of gas in the weeks that women disappeared. However, investigators weren't able to establish an exact time of death for the victim. So they couldn't link the purchases to the exact dates. Women went missing. But based on this information, they did get a warrant to search Ridgeway's house. On April 8, 1987, the police searched Ridgeway's home and vehicles because he was the last person seen with at least two of the victims. By this point, a total victim count had reached 46.

Think about that number. How large that is. It's absolutely scary. But we talked about it in episode one, right? He was on their radar. He took and passed multiple polygraph tests and you're going to be on police radar. When you're the last person seen with multiple victims, Ridgeway also provided the police with a saliva sample.

to almost get the feeling this guy was pretty cocky in a way. You know, he agreed to take the polygraphs. Right. He agreed to give a saliva sample. Well, I mean, he's been getting away with it for a long time. So I think he probably does feel very confident. And he's going to get away with it, you know, even longer. Prosecutors thought they had enough circumstantial evidence to charge Gary with murder. But they didn't think they had enough evidence to win.

trial. And this is an interesting statement. You know, this comes up quite a bit. Do you charge someone? Do you not? Do you wait? They're pretty sure based on, you know, what we're saying here that Gary Ridgeway is the Green River killer. Right. But you still have to weigh everything that you have and say, can we win at trial? Because of the consequences of going to trial and losing. Yeah, you don't want to go to trial. lose because then you're really going to be screwed right yeah that that would be the worst thing al matthew a retired king county prosecutor who worked the case told the seattle times it's easy to say gee whiz why didn't you do something the main thing is you get one shot and i think that's very well put yeah you better make that one shot count just like m&m said you get one shot yeah yeah

it's good pull now no one wants to see a person, you know, who they believe is a murderer walking around on the streets and, and potentially, you know, claiming more lives. But at the same time, you also don't want that person to be acquitted and then never be able to be convicted of these murders. By this point, everyone at work knew that Gary was a suspect in the Green River murders. No one brought it up to him, but he was given the nickname, Green River Gary or GR.

How strange would that be? Think about it. We were working with somebody that was a major suspect. A number one suspect in a huge case, multiple, you know, 40 plus murders. Okay. I don't know that I would be joking around a whole lot and giving this person the nickname. I think I'd be, you know, keeping my distance. giving a little profile eating only food that was closed up yeah you know not leaving my stuff in the

in the communal refrigerator wouldn't go to lunch with them no no I'm not going to be alone with this person by the 1990s detectives had a few suspects but bridgeway was still on the list at one point a cab driver was put under surveillance according to the Seattle times he was never officially cleared but investigators didn't think he committed the crimes because victims continued disappearing while he was under surveillance. Another suspect was a fur trapper. So they think it's Gary.

Gary's probably at the top of the list, but they can't charge him. So they're going to continue looking at people, putting people under surveillance, things like that. Yeah, and I mean, it's unfortunate too during the time of surveillance and things like that. You still have people go missing.

So it just shows you, how many other bad individuals were working in the area. Yeah, whether those were one-off disappearances slash murders or, you know, was there another serial killer operated? Did Gary Ridgeway have more victims than what we know about? And we'll talk about that later on. DNA technology was still in its early stages. Investigators were reluctant to perform DNA testing at first because they worried,

it would eat up the DNA collected from the victims without yielding positive results, according to the LA Times. And that was a real thing. And maybe still is to an extent, probably not as big of a thing. You know, look at television shows and movies where, you know, they've got that swab. And they're using the entire swab for a test. Right. And basically, there's nothing left.

So if you do that and you strike out, you don't have anything to use when the technology gets better that could actually yield a result from that same sample. So some tough decisions have to be made. Very tough. Beverly Hemick, a Washington State Patrol Crime Laboratory forensic scientists told the New York Times, the case had basically come to a stanza. In March 2001, investigators used new DNA technology to reexamine evidence from, the Green River case, including Gary Ridgeway's preserved saliva sample from 1987.

So, you know, 14 years have passed. That's a long time. It is a long time. For them to still think this man's a serial killer. Yeah. What do we have to do to put the pieces together to, you know, charge him and take him to trial? But 14 years still on the radar. Yeah.

Wow. And still probably being called Green River. Gary, right, at work. Investigators also found DNA samples from three victims. Beverly Hemick from the state crime lab said it was a last-ditch effort. We didn't have a lot to work with, but we went through a lot of evidence again. We rinsed all the fingernails to look for trace evidence and swab the ligatures for cellular material. With one girl, we were able to find a few sperm clinging to her pubic hair. And obviously, DNA. technology. The progression, the advancement from 1987 to 2001 was massive. The progression from 2001

to today, astronomical as well. The results came back in September of that year. Gary Ridgeway's saliva matched DNA samples from three women, officially linking him to those murders. All right. Now they got something. Yeah. And it was right after these results. results came in that Ridgeway was put under surveillance. Yeah, I guess you can't really put them under surveillance until you have something, a cause is too, right? But he might have been under surveillance at one point, but you can't surveil somebody for 14 years.

No. I mean, you know, the resources just don't allow for it. When investigators were ready to make the arrest, they started by searching Highway 99, also known as Pacific Avenue South, sex workers were known to frequent this area, and many victims were picked up there. On November 16, 2001, Gary Ridgeway stopped on International Boulevard in CTAC and stuck his hand out of the window, waving cash. A woman at a motel across the street saw him. Ridgeway pulled into the parking lot and got out of his truck to approach her. So I don't know what the international symbol for wanting a transaction is, but maybe sticking your hand out the window and waving cash is.

Sounds like it's a pretty universal thing. It could be. Yeah. The woman who spoke to him told the Seattle Times. I walked over to him and asked if he was getting a room. He said no. And then asked me if I was dating. I said that I was and was he interested.

He said he was, but there was a. cop watching. So right from that, you know that Gary was very well aware. Yeah. He was under surveillance. What does that tell you? He still is willing to go out and pay for sex. Yeah. He feels pretty confident that he has nothing to worry about. Gary said that he would meet her down the road at a bank. However, this woman was actually a sheriff's deputy acting as a decoy and she signaled for other officers to arrest Ridgeway. Gary was charged with loitering for the purpose of soliciting prostitution. So he was sentenced to 90 days in jail with a $1,000 fine, but the sentence and part of the fine was suspended on the condition that he commit no further violations for two years

and agree to stay out of areas known for sex work. And I don't know if that's all that uncommon for that type of charge. 90 days, you know, some of it or maybe all of it suspended because we're just talking about this one charge. We're not talking about murder. No, no, no. We're just talking about solicitation. On November 30th, 2001, 52-year-old Gary Ridgeway was arrested in connection with four murders.

His DNA connected him to the three victims who were found on August 15th, 1982. too. Opel Mills, Marcia Chapman, and Cynthia Hines. Other evidence tied him to the murder of a woman named Carol Christensen, who was found in the woods in Maple Valley on May 8, 1983. So when we say, you know, it took almost 20 years. I mean, you can see it from those days. Investigators suspected Ridgeway of 49 total murders. And by the time of his arrest, 42 of the 49 victims had been found. Wow, that's huge. it is actually a pretty big number. You know, think about the number of unsolved cases that you and I do where people are never found.

No, they found at this point 42 to 49. That's pretty amazing. At a press conference on the evening of November 30th, former detective and now sheriff Dave Riker told the public, I am not calling this guy the Green River Killer. We do not know if he is responsible for the deaths of any other women. We're still examining that. what I am saying is that the list attributed to a single serial murderer is still accurate. And the cases on that list are still considered to be linked.

So, you know, he's choosing his words very wisely, which you have to do, of course. But when you break it down, he's saying, I'm not calling Gary Ridgeway the Green River killer, but I am telling you that all of these cases are linked to one murderer. So draw your own conclusions, basically. At the conference, Sergeant John Urquhart also said, per the LA Times, we have 10,000 items of evidence. We believe some of them have DNA evidence on them. 10,000 items. It's a lot.

Reichert added, this is going to take a great deal of effort in the coming months and maybe the next two or three years to figure out. Yeah, it's going to take a long time to go through that much evidence. Yeah, I mean, you've got to sort it out. figure out what has DNA on it, what doesn't. You're talking about a lot of testing, a lot of work. And protocol in between. On November 5th, 2003, Gary Ridgeway pleaded guilty to 48 charges of aggravated first-degree murder. So basically, he took a plea bargain to avoid the death penalty.

But as part of the deal, he had to give a confession and provide information about the locations of victims' body. That's something I'm glad they include it into the, when they make a deal with somebody like him, right? Kind of tell us where the bodies are. Well, they have to get something out of it. Sure. When you think about a plea bargain, both sides are getting something out of it, right?

Gary Ridgeway is avoiding the death penalty. And at the same time, they're going to get some very valuable information that they're then going to be able to share with the families. And they know where he's going to be. They can keep them in prison and don't have to worry about them out there doing something similar. Oh, yeah. I mean, he's going to be locked up.

He's just not going to be put to death. And we talk about the death penalty all the time. I'm actually in favor of what they did because, okay, you go after the death penalty. There is no incentive, right, for a person like Gary Ridgeway to divulge information. No. And what's going to be the result of that? there are going to be a lot of families out there of murder victims that are just not going to have the information they need. Remember, there's still some of these bodies that have not been found.

Prosecutor Jeff Baird read Gary Ridgeway's written statement in court. And the following are some quotes from that statement, which was published by CNN. It read, I killed the 48 women listed in the state's second amended information. In most cases, when I murdered these women, I did not know their names. Most of the time, I killed them the first time I met them and I don't have a good memory for their faces. I killed so many women, I have a hard time keeping them straight. I have reviewed information and discovery about each of the murders with my attorneys.

And I am positive that I killed each one of the women charged in the second amended information. So he's admitting it. Yeah. The thing that really jumped out at me was this line. I killed so many women. I have a hard time keeping them straight. And you would. How could you keep them straight? If you killed 40 plus women over a number of years, women that you didn't know, women that you only met that one time when you killed them. It's strange to say a little bit because you would think that if you took someone, one's life. You would remember that, right? It would be etched in your brain. You would think. But if you're someone like Gary Ridgeway and you're murdering on average like two people a month, at a certain point, you're going to forget some details. Yeah, you're not going to have the recall.

He went on to say, I picked prostitutes as my victims because I hate most prostitutes and I did not want to pay them for sex. I also picked prostitutes as victims because they were easy to pick up without being noticed. I knew they would not be reported missing right away and might never be reported missing. I picked prostitutes because I thought I could kill as many of them as I wanted without getting caught. Now, some of this is, you know, hard to say, hard to listen to. It's very blunt. It's very cold. But it's also some very good information into the mind of a serial killer. No,

it really is. Because you and I have talked many, many times about why serial killers choose sex workers as often as they do. And I think he's kind of laying out a lot of the things that we've talked about. But that very last part, I thought I could kill as many of them as I wanted without getting caught. And for a very long time,

he was correct. I was going to say he did. He also said, another part of my plan was where I put the bodies of these women. Most of the time I took the women's jewelry and their clothes to get rid of any evidence and make them harder to identify. I placed most of the bodies in groups, which I call clusters. I did this because I wanted to keep track of all the women I killed. I like to drive by the clusters around the county and think about the women I placed there. I usually used a landmark to remember a cluster.

and the women I placed there. Sometimes I killed and dumped a woman intending to start a new cluster and never returned because I thought I might get caught, putting more women there. So this kind of goes back to, you know, some of the information provided by Ted Bundy, right?

The killer most likely is revisiting either what, the crime scene, where the bodies were dumped, where the, you know, and in this case, he was revisiting what he called these clusters. And I think he was also doing a little bit more than quote unquote revisiting. Yeah, I think so too. I think he was doing some nasty stuff as well. CNN also listed the names of all 48 victims.

And like I said, we could not go through each murder in detail. It would just take too many episodes. but I do think it's important to name all the victims. The following women were killed in 1982. Wendy Lee, Coughfield, Deborah Bonner, Marsha Chapman, Cynthia Hines, Opel Mills, Deborah Estes, Giselle, LeVorn, Terry Milligan, Linda Ruele, Denise Bush, Shirley Sherrill,

Shonda Summers, Colleen Brockman, Jane Doe B-10, Jane Doe B-10, Jane Doe B-16 and Jane Doe B-17. When you read names out like that and say that all those women were killed in 1982 by one person. Right. At the hands of Gary Ridgeway, it really sinks in. It does.

How prolific this guy was in what were some instances pretty short spans of time. The following women were killed in 19. Carol Christensen, Alma Smith, Dolores Williams, Gail Matthews, Sandra Gabbard, Carrie Royce, Andrea Childers, Constance Neon, Kelly M. Ware, Cheryl Wims, Kimmy Kye Pitzer, Marie Malvar, Martina Auterley, Debbie M. Abernathy, Mary Bello, Pammy Avent, Yvonne, Antosh, Tina Thompson. April, Butram, Maureen Feeney, Tracy Winston, Deleese Plager, Kim Nelson, and Lisa Yates. So that list was even longer. Yeah, I think it was like 10, 11 names more. Just in the one year. Yeah.

Just in 1983. In 1984, Ridgeway killed Mary West and Cindy Smith. In 1986, he killed Patricia Barzat. In 1987, Ridgeway killed Roberta Hayes. In 1990, he killed Marta Reeves. In 1992, Ridgeway killed Mary Mehan. And then in 1998, Ridgeway killed Patricia Yellow Rope. So I think what we have to talk about here is the time.

Many victims killed in 1982. Even more victims killed in 1983. And then only two victims killed in 1984. and then it was like one victim a year, but not even every year. So why is that? So there could be a few reasons. One, maybe he just slowed down. It's possible.

And then you have the possibility that he's never confessed to anymore, but he's done a lot more. Yeah, that's possible too. I think you also have to look at, you know, what types of changes happen in a person's life, right? And we detailed out some of that stuff in episode one. Marriages, a child, those can cause some killers to take a hiatus. Sure, like BTK, seemed like he took one when his child was born. Yeah, the changes in your personal life. Finally, Ridgeway admitted to strangling an unidentified woman known as Jane Doe B20,

but he didn't seem to be sure on the dates. The dates that I saw were all over the place. Could have been as far back as the 70s up to like 1993. Well, you know, when you kill that many people. He said it, right? They start blending. Yeah. He had trouble remembering the details.

But to me, when you read out all of those names, it just magnified. What a prolific predator slash serial killer this guy really was. Oh, yeah. And, you know, how long. he got away with it. On December 18, 2003, Gary Ridgeway received 48 consecutive life sentences with no possibility of parole. Forty-eight consecutive life sentences, not concurrent, 48 consecutive consecutive. So should be no reason why somebody like that would ever get out. No, no, and no possibility of parole. So he said in court is quoted by the New York Times,

I'm sorry for killing these ladies. They had their whole lives ahead of them. He expressed remorse for the ladies who were not found. May they rest in peace. They need a better place than where I gave them. So, you know, again, I asked the question, do you believe him or do you not? You know, with somebody like him at this point,

I kind of do believe him. Yeah. That he's sorry he did what he did? Yeah. Yeah, I just don't know. I don't know that there's any way to tell. I always kind of lean towards the, you're only sorry because you got caught.

Well, that's always going to be the case, I think, right? And so, walk themselves in, you know, turn themselves in on, you know,

without getting caught, right? I feel really bad. And not many people do. No, exactly. But it's the, well,

I'm never getting out. So I either am sorry that I did what I did. did because I got caught or because I did what I did or I'm not sorry for any of it. No. But I got nowhere to go. So I'm going to say these words, even though I don't really mean them because it's going to make me look a little bit better in the eyes of some.

And I never know what the real truth is. Judge Richard Jones told Ridgeway, as you spend the balance of your life in your tiny cell surrounded only by your thoughts, please know that the women you killed were not throwaways or pieces of candy in a dish placed upon this planet for the sole purpose of satisfying your murderous desire. The judge said that he hoped Ridgeway would remember the victim's faces in his dreams and private thoughts, adding, if you have a drop of emotion, you will be haunted for the balance of your life. So some good words here. It is. And there's two things. And there's two things. things for me that I take away. The first part is absolutely correct. These women were not put on

this earth for the sole purpose of satisfying Gary Ridgeway's desires. Right. And it's the thing that gets me with some of these guys. You know, they act as though their wants, their needs, their desires are really the only important thing in the world. And everybody else on the planet is just here for them to either target or, you know, whatever. They just don't care. No, they're definitely, it's all about them. Yes, absolutely. Now, when the judge says, you'll be haunted for the balance of your life, I'm sure there is some small percentage of killers who are haunted. But I think by and large, If you're a serial killer like Gary Ridgeway, able to murder as many women as he did. Right.

I don't think you're going to lose a lot of sleep. I really don't. No, I don't think so either. I don't think he's going to be haunted by seeing his victim's faces. I don't either. At the time of his sentencing, Ridgeway was the most prolific serial killer in American history. In recent years, Samuel Little has been named the most prolific serial killer after confessing to over 90s. murders. But there for a long time. When you talked about Gary Ridgeway, you were talking about

the worst of the worst when it came to sheer numbers of lives taken. Prosecutors had about a dozen cases. They thought Ridgeway was involved in. Investigators spent hundreds of hours speaking to Gary. He revealed when and where he killed his victims, how he disposed of the bodies, and also gave investigators an in-depth look into the mind of a serial killer. Again, real mind hunter type of stuff. Yeah. According to the Seattle Times, Gary said about his victims, prostitutes were the easiest. I went from having sex with them to just plain killing him. Well, for him, I know he mentioned they were easy targets because he felt like they wouldn't be missed. Or reported as quickly. Gary also said, that he preferred young women because they were less likely to con him.

He also implied that he was doing the police a favor by targeting sex workers, saying, according to A&E, you guys can't control them, but I can't. Like, I'm doing your job for you is almost like what he's saying. Take one for the team. You're not taking out the trash, so I'm going to. It's just a horrible thought to have. but let's go back to what we talked about in episode one, right? Going door to door, talking to people about how these sex workers are all over the

place. Meanwhile, you're frequenting them. Yeah. And then at a certain point, you start killing them. So do you think it was a ruse? So maybe like the focus wouldn't be on him because he was making it sound like he really didn't like what these sex workers did? Or do you think it was just some of the truth coming out that?

he just really didn't like these sex workers. This is how he dealt with it. Yeah, it could have been a little bit of both. I almost think that it really kind of shines a light on how much he did hate them. He denied being involved in one case. When asked why he would deny his involvement, he said, is quoted by the New York Times. Why? If it isn't mine.

Because I have pride in what I do. I don't want to take it from anybody else. Think about that. You're not a sculptor. You're not a painter. You haven't created something. He's taking pride in his work. And his work is murdering sex workers. And don't you confuse mine with somebody else's. I don't want to take credit for somebody else's work. Unbelievable. During his talks with investigators, Ridgeway called killing his career. He described how he spent hours before and after work, patrols. areas known for sex work. And this kind of backs up one of the theories that I've always had, which is with some of these serial killers, it is all encompassing. Yeah, they may have a job, but any free time they have, they're out patrolling, stalking, looking for victims.

I truly believe that. And I think for him, he's basically saying as much. According to the Washington Post, Ridgeway's attorney Michelle Shaw said that she was the one who got him to confess on April 9, 2003. She told him that his family would always love him no matter what he had done.

After this, Ridgeway's behavior changed. He became tearful, worried about his crimes, ruining his brother's marriage, and was thankful his mother was not alive to see what had happened. Well, nobody wants their mom to find out that they're a serial killer. No, I'm not sure what would be more disappointed to a mother than to find that out.

But, you know, let's talk about how he was worried that his crimes would ruin his brother's marriage. You know, what he didn't talk about, or at least it wasn't in this reporting, was the countless number of lives that he ruined. Yeah. How about those? Didn't say anything about that. after Ridgeway pleaded guilty,

prosecutors released a 133 page summary of evidence. They concluded that Ridgeway was not mentally ill. He told a psychologist he used to have a problem with killing women. According to the Seattle Times, when asked why he thought this was an illness, he responded, I don't know if it was an illness or just, I just wanted to kill. And this is kind of refreshing in a way, right? there are so many cases where mental illness is in the mix because somebody claims they're mentally

ill. Maybe they really are. Or maybe they're using it as part of their defense. I think this guy in a way was pretty honest with some of the things he said. I kind of think so. I don't know if it was an illness or I just wanted to kill women or I just wanted to kill. And maybe it could be a bit of both. I don't know. but I definitely think he wanted to kill. Ridgeway also told detectives that he had killed more women, starting in the 70s and ending shortly before his arrest. Long span. Oh, it definitely is.

And the other thing is that it's going to push his number higher, right? His number's probably got to be higher. I think so. Than what he's even admitted to. According to the Seattle Times, he said he preferred to strangle victims because, using weapons would have been messy. And he found strangulation more personal and more rewarding.

Again, I think he's being brutally honest. It just also happens to be sickening at the same time, these words that he's saying. Because he's so honest? Yeah. Yeah. You know, strangling someone is very personal. You're up close. But to use the word rewarding.

It's really sick. It is. Ridgeway said he revisited the victim. bodies for two or three days until the flies came, according to Grunge. So apparently even a guy like Gary Ridgway has a line, and his line that he won't cross is when the flies come. He confessed to committing acts of necrophilia with 10 victims. According to the New York Times, when asked why he didn't find another living victim,

he said, well, for one thing, you'd have to pay for it. And she was already dead. Okay. Again, I think that's brutally honest. It is. And Ted Bundy called it. Yeah, Ted Bundy did call it. I just think you are, well, you're a piece of shit anyway, right?

For doing what you did. But these words that you're saying, they're just making you look so cold, which we know most serial killers are anyway. Kind of have to be. But he's shedding some light. I think on the mindset of some of these types of. of killers. Although he never took trophies from the victims to keep for himself, he did steal victim's jewelry and leave it in the women's bathroom at work. He said, my favorite thing was maybe if someone's walking around with a piece of that jewelry that they found in the bathroom.

So here's another little sick perverted twist. I'm going to see who in my factories won, a thief, but more importantly, I'm going to see that piece of jewelry on this person. It used to be on this person that I had killed. And you think he would get a little something out of that? Most likely. Right? Yeah. Some feeling would wash over him the minute he saw someone wearing that piece of jewelry.

Gary explained how he was able to avoid capture for so long. He said he always wore gloves. And we talked about in part one, the time that he spilled battery acid over his wounds to disguise them, he left cigarette butts and gum wrappers at crime scenes as a misdirect because he didn't smoke and he didn't chew gum. He changed his tires often. If he injured himself while disposing of bodies, he filed a worker's complaint to establish a paper trail. Gary also clipped victim's fingernail. If they scratched him or ripped his clothes. So we talked about it in episode one, Gary Ridgway had an IQ of about 80. Yeah. But when it,

it came to his career, and I'm using that in quotation marks, he did some things that were very, very intelligent. You know, how many killers are caught from DNA that is found under a victim's fingernail. Okay. So he trimmed them so that it wouldn't be there. Street smarts. Yeah, street smarts. Like you said, he made sure to kill women who were strangers so it wouldn't be traced back to him. He also never talked about the murders with anyone for almost 20 years. That's so hard to believe, but that's why I think he was able to, another reason he was able to go as long as he did, right? Yes. He didn't go around bragging. Or confiding in someone who could then turn around and go to the police. Again, all things that number one are pretty smart to do if you're a serial killer. And then number

two, probably part of the reasons why he was able to get away with it for as long as he was. Gary told investigators is quoted by the Washington Post. I look like an ordinary person. Here's a guy. He's not really muscle bound. He's not a look like a fighter. Just an ordinary job. And that was their downfall. My appearance was different from what I really was. An animal? Yeah. He didn't look like it. Now, we talked. about the oddest tools of the world, the Henry Lee Lucases of the world, people who, you know, if you saw them, you might have a pause. You might cross the street because rightly or wrongly, you know, we're all taught, don't judge a book by its cover, but you might think, oh,

there's something going on there. But when you have a Ted Bundy, you have a Gary Ridgeway who don't look menacing. They don't look like somebody you should be afraid of. Okay, that adds an element. A big element. According to the Seattle Times, Ridgeway admitted that he encountered some women he didn't kill, saying during the killing spree, there were a few women I didn't for some reason. I didn't kill, but they were few and far between.

And you wonder what they had, right, for him to say, not tonight. Yeah, and I don't know that. he ever went into it or if he did, I didn't see it. But it could have just been something like maybe he reminded him of somebody that he actually liked. Maybe they spoke to him in a way that made him see them as a real person. Yeah. As opposed to the objects that he saw most women as, I don't know. I'm just speculating. But to be one of those women, to find this out later, I mean, you have to think about how lucky you are. You were then and, you know, because of that you are.

Yeah. He developed ruses to gain the victim's trust, including showing them pictures of his son, offering to become a regular client, offering to lend his truck, help them find a job, give them food or pay them more. He didn't worry about fulfilling any of these promises because in his mind, the women were already dead. Yeah, it was just his way of trying to get them to go along. Yeah.

So, you know, and I'm just throwing out a number here. If they were charging $50, well, he could say, I'll pay you $100 because he knew he was never going to pay them anyway. Yeah. But think about using pictures of your son to help gain the trust of these women that you ultimately murder. I mean, I'd say it's pretty low, but he's already low. Yeah. So can he get lower? Yeah, maybe. I don't know. He's about as low as you can get. Some sex workers even ask Gary if he was the killer. But he said he couldn't be because of his slight stature. And that one always gets me when, you know, people think that a serial killer has to be, you know, this big thug. Right. Looking, you know, bulging muscles. And no, obviously they don't. No. We've seen a lot of us.

serial killers who were, you know, on the short side, slight builds. You don't have to be a huge person to kill someone. You don't have to be. I mean, just think about some of the women serial killers out there. Like Dorothy, I can't say her last name. Dorothea Puente. Yeah. I know who you, I know who you're talking about. Yeah, I mean, obviously she was not a bodybuilder. No. She was at an advanced age, but she was able to, you know, she was able to, you know, she was able to figure out ways to kill a large number of people. Sure was. Gary said that he preferred to kill women in his home, the woods, or the back of his truck. He killed almost all the women by attacking them from behind and putting his arms,

a towel or a rope around their necks and strangling them. He didn't use other methods because, as he said, strangulation worked pretty good. And he added, choking is what I did. And I was pretty good at it. Okay, well, he can recognize that, I guess. Well, it's, again, coming out that he took pride in his work. And that is really throwing me off. Yeah, but kind of goes back to his earlier days, right? He wanted to be successful. He wanted to be good at something.

And this is something that he felt he was good at. And in a sick way, he was good at it for a long, long time. So is it that strange? that he took pride in it because it's almost like he was some he was looking for something he could take right pride in and this is what he found gary admitted that he once drove to work with a body in the bed of his truck okay got to get to work yeah and he was able to hold on to that job for what do we say 30 years 25 30 years long time he once revisited a body and committed an act of necrophilia while his son waited in the truck.

In 1984, Gary drove three victims to the Portland area while his son was in the truck because he wanted to throw off investigators. Well, you might have thrown off investigators, but you potentially could be messing with your kids' psyche. Yeah, I would probably go ahead and take out that word potentially. Yeah. You know, sure. Just think about his son after finding all this out.

You know, his dad used his picture to try to put. some of these victims at ease. He committed some terrible act while his son was in the truck. He used his son to try to throw off the investigator. According to the Seattle Times, Ridgeway said he covered the bodies with whatever he could find saying, she's garbage. So I put stuff all over that was garbage. And I think that sums it up right there.

You know, we've long speculated that. A lot of these serial killers, you know, think of their victims as objects. We've all sometimes said they disposed of them almost like as if they were garbage. He's actually coming out and saying, she's garbage. So I put garbage on top of her. That's how he saw her, right? It's exactly how he saw his victims. He complained that hiding the bodies was difficult saying, I had to take them all the way out there, waste of my time and gas.

To him, this was a big burden. Yeah. And it took his time away from killing other victims. He said that. Yeah. How disappointing he had to be. Oh, here I have to drive another one out to the woods. Waste of my time and gas.

And what do you think if you're the family member of some of these victims? Oh, my gosh. It would make my blood boil. Oh, it would have to. Wow. To hear some of these comments made by Gary Rigg. Ridgeway about a person I love that he murdered. I'd be furious. Yeah. You took my daughter's life in the horrific way you did it. And now you're going to tell me she was a burden on you.

He admitted that he stopped killing so frequently when he got married, but he occasionally fell off the wagon. And that goes back to what we were saying earlier, right? Changes in your personal life or in the personal life of some of these serial killers, it does tend to sometimes change their pattern. Yeah. And it changed his dramatically. Big time. So let's speculate for a minute.

What happens if he doesn't get married? Is he still killing at, you know, two people a month for all of those years where, you know, he killed one person, some years he didn't kill any? Yeah, potentially. His number could have been in the hundreds. Easily. if he had kept going at that rate. Gary said that he was rusty when he killed Patricia Yellow Robe in 1998.

And we've already said it, right? Gary had no concern for his victim's lives. They meant absolutely nothing to him. The prosecutor's report stated he displayed no empathy for his victims and expressed no genuine remorse. He killed because he wanted to. He killed because he could. He killed to satisfy his.

his evil and unfathomable, unfathomable desires. That word is very hard for me to say. Unfathomable? Yeah. You almost said it correctly. You were as close, if not closer than I was. But, you know, again, it's just, it's so mind-boggling. It shouldn't be at this point, but it still is.

Yeah, it just amazes me. They just didn't really care about taking these victims' lives. when a psychologist asked him to rate himself on a scale of one to five, five being the worst kind of evil, Gary rated himself a three. His explanation was, for one thing is, I killed them. I didn't torture him. They went fast. Okay. So he's given himself a little kudos. Where would you put him on the scale one to five? Five. He's the worst kind of evil. But this highlights how people don't see. themselves right the way that others do i mean Gibbs in your professional life because i know i've experienced this how many times have you had somebody that thought they were the best worker

in the company oh many times but yet they were so far from it right but in their mind they were they were hitting it out of the ballpark yeah they were an average employee right but they weren't the best. And here he's he's saying, oh, I, I didn't do terrible things. I mean, I could have done worse. Worse. I'm a three. Yeah, but this is like, you know, you're rating a restaurant experience. And you're with a couple people, right? Three meals come out. All of them have different bugs in them. But you give it a three star rating because it came out pretty quickly. No, that's not how it works. you can deliver it however fast you won, but if there's something gross in it, you're going to get a bad rating. Yeah, you don't give it a pass.

According to lead detective Thomas Jensen, Gary had an apparently underdevelopment and there were so many victims, he could not sort them all out. As we mentioned in part one, Gary also confessed that he thought about killing his second wife and third wife and his son Matthew. When asked why he thought Ridgeway didn't kill his wives, Jensen told A&E, he was smarter than that. He would have been suspect number one in the death of an X, Y. So, you know, there's a lot of conflicting things here. He has an underdeveloped mind. Right. He has an 80 IQ.

But he's smart enough to get away with killing this large number of women for almost 20 years. And he's smart enough to know. I can't kill my ex-wife. I'm going to be suspect number one. It'll be all over. Mary Ellen O'Toole, an FBI profiler who interviewed Ridgeway, said that Gary felt compelled to murder because he didn't see his victims as people. Instead, he saw them as a way to fulfill his sexually deviant compulsions.

She told A&E, he loved the risk taking of killing the women and going back to re-assault them. You know, and for me, this is where you get into the area of what do these killers get out of it, right? What need are they satisfying by doing what they're doing? Is it thrilling? Is it, you know, what is it? And I'm taking from what she's saying that it must have been thrilling to him, the risk taking of not only killing the women, but revisiting them later on. They got another kick out of that. I could get caught.

Yeah. So there's, there's a draw to that. There's a feeling from that. But then he's also fulfilling, you know, some of his sexually deviant compulsions, necrophilia and whatever else it was involved. And it's amazing because he didn't see them as people. They were just objects to him. Yeah.

And I really don't think that's all that uncommon with a lot of killers. but especially serial killer. Gary felt that rules didn't apply to him. This combined with urges to kidnap and murder made him a serial killer. O'Toole said in her interview, these are behaviors that are exciting and sexually arousing to them. They like to do them. They're entitled to do whatever they want in their mind.

So they engage in this behavior. I mean, we've heard that before, right? The rules don't apply to them. That's how they think. Now, here's the thing. I believe there are a lot of people who have all kinds of different fantasy. And some of those fantasies may be harmless and some may not. But most people don't engage in those fantasies against another person's will because they do know that the rules apply to them.

Right. And they would go to jail and they don't want to do that or go to prison or whatever. whatever it is. But I think for some serial killers, yeah, they care in a way. They don't want to go to prison, but mainly just because they don't want

what they're doing to end. Exactly. I don't think it's like a, you and I don't want to go to prison type of deal. No, it's definitely different. And another big difference is, in their way of thinking,

the reward always outweighs the risk. Whereas most of us would look at something and say, oh my gosh, that's too risky. Yeah, no way I'm going to do something like that. Even if you wanted to do it, most people wouldn't because they don't want to take the chance of ruining their family, going to prison, whatever it may be. On December 21st, 2010, Green River victim Rebecca Morero was found in a ravine in Auburn, Washington. She was found about three miles from the Mountain View Cemetery where Ridgeway disposed of several victims.

20-year-old Rebecca Marrero was last seen leaving a motel in CTAC on December 3rd, 1982. She was not reported missing until July 20th, 1984. Man, that's a long time, isn't it? It is. That's, uh, what, a year and a half before she was reported missing. But think about 26 years before her body was actually found. Yeah.

On February 18, 2011, Gary Ridgeway pleaded guilty to murdering Rebecca, bringing his total charges to 49 murders. He received an additional life sentence. A woman named Jennifer Paxton attended court that day. She claimed that Gary Ridgeway raped her when she was 16 years old. In December 1979, she was hitchhiking on the Kent Kangley Road in Washington. A man in his 20s picked her up, drove her. drove her to the woods, raped her, and then threw her out of his car. She said she didn't report what happened because she was afraid the police wouldn't believe

her and that her mother would blame her for wearing what she called skimpy clothing. Well, if it was Ridgeway, it's terrible what happened to her, but at least she escaped what he would normally do to his victims. Yeah, she absolutely could have lost her life if this encounter was indeed with Gary Ridgeway. But how many times have we heard people not wanting to report sexual assaults because they didn't think the police would believe them. Yeah. Or in this case, she thought her mother would be upset with her because she was wearing skimpy clothing. Yeah. It's so horrible. Sad, you know. In 2003, she read a book about Ridgeway and saw his picture. She realized he was the man who

raped her. Now, the police. told her that Ridgeway was likely not the man who raped her because the rape did not fit his M.O. And I don't really know how they can determine that. I understand what his M.O. was. Right. But in the 70s, are you telling me that a person like him couldn't just pick up a hitchhiker and sexually assault him? And I'm saying absolutely he could have. So I don't know how they make that determination just because she wasn't a sex worker and he didn't kill her. You know what? And if she thought that's who it was, that's who that's good enough for me. Same here. Yeah. On June 18th, 2012, the King County Sheriff's Office announced that another victim had been identified,

20-year-old Sandra Denise Major. Before this, Sandra was known as Bones 16, or the 16th set of unidentified remains. In April, 2000, 2012, Sandra's cousin watched a lifetime movie about Ridgeway and called the sheriff's office. The cousin knew Sandra was in Seattle in 1982 and that she was a sex worker who had gone missing. The police obtained DNA samples from Sandra's two brothers and sister that allowed them to make the identification. Sanders' remains were found on December 30, 1985. On the outskirts of the Mountain View Cemetery in Auburn, a friend reported her, missing on December 24th, 1982, after she was seen getting into a truck in Seattle.

But the police did not forward the report to the Green River detectives. Three sets of remains were found around the cemetery. Up to this point, only one young girl had been identified, and that was 16-year-old Kimmy Kai Pitzer. In 2013, Gary Ridgeway did an exclusive interview with KOMO News, where he told reporter Charlie Harger, the total number of victims is 75 to 80. And I believe that. I believe it absolutely. Ridgeway said he was confessing to more murders to bring closure to family. He said during his interview, I want to prove them wrong. I want to prove there's 80 bodies out there or 85 or whatever.

Now, I absolutely believe the number is higher than 49. Do I believe he's confessing, to bring more closure. Dad, I don't know about. For all I know, he could just be upset that his name is, is not in the spotlight as much. And maybe that's why he's doing the interview. We know killers have done that before.

But he did claim that he was a changed man. He had found religion in prison. He admitted that when he gave his original confession, he could have given more information. Harger was reluctant. to believe him. ABC quoted him as saying, Gary Ridgeway is absolutely playing me. He's playing everybody when he talks. I don't think Gary Ridgeway can even comprehend the truth. And that could be true as well. I think, you know, both things could be true. The number could be far higher than 49.

Sure. But Gary Ridgeway may not really understand exactly what the truth is. You know, but at the end of the day, he can say things like that because he's proven he can kill at least almost 50 people, right? He can prove that. So how can you doubt somebody when they say, oh, it's probably 70, 80? Well, part of me just thinks when you get into the numbers, it's kind of like the Samuel little thing. Right. When you first heard the numbers, people were like, ah, there's no way. Yeah.

Because it just sounds so astronomical. And it is. Yeah. But this guy also, Gary Ridgeway also was operating for almost 20 years. So you can't tell me that there were not things that happened during some of those years where he didn't confess to any murders that that maybe there was some. Yeah. Harger also reported that Gary had been speaking with Air Force criminal investigator Rob Fitzgerald for years. Fitzgerald led search efforts to find unidentified victims.

On May 14, 2015, Ridgeway was transferred to the U.S. penitentiary in Florence, Colorado, a high security prison. It was later reported that the reason for the move was to allow him an opportunity to live in the general population rather than in isolation. Gary was reportedly a model inmate at Walla Walla and documents state that he had recently complained of mental problems and was taking medication. Many people expressed outrage over this decision. What do you think that is?

Well, I think they want to picture this man who committed so many murders, destroyed so many families sitting alone in his cell with nothing to do. They don't want to picture him in Gen Pop playing cards with other people and laughing and joking it up. Yeah, because he doesn't deserve that. No. In September 2015, it was announced that Ridgeway would be returned to Washington to make him easily available for questioning in unsolved cases.

According to the Seattle Times, the Department of Corrections said Gary was transferred for what they called reasons of security management and that the transfer was seen as an opportunity to get a fresh assessment on how to house Ridgewood. way for the remainder of his life. You know, what all of that mumbo jumbo means to me is that they saw the outrage. Right. And they were like, uh-oh, we made a mistake. Yeah, we got to move them.

Yeah, we got to move him back. The victim known as Jane Doe B-10 or B-10 was identified in 2020 as 14-year-old Wendy Stevens, the youngest victim. Wendy ran away from her home in Denver, Colorado in 1983. Her skeletal remains were found in March 1984 in a swamp behind a baseball field near the Seattle-Tacoma Airport. The DNA Doe Project used DNA from the bone fragments to develop a familial genetic profile. They were able to find Wendy's distant cousins on Jedmatch and Family Tree DNA. a team of genealogists constructed family trees that led them to her parents.

The match was reported to the sheriff's office and Wendy's mother provided the DNA sample that confirmed the identification. The identification was made public in January 2021. And again, you and I have talked about genetic genealogy a lot. It's amazing technology, amazing process. Yeah. And not just in identifying killers, but really an identifying, previously unidentified victims. Yeah, it's an amazing tool.

It also benefits a potential suspect too, right? Because it could clear you. Wendy's mother actually uploaded her DNA to Jedmatch in 2019. But after her submission, Jedmatch implemented an opt-in policy that only allows law enforcement access to DNA and the database if users agree to it. And she didn't know about the policy change. And I remember this. Morph and I were doing a lot of stuff on criminology about genetic genealogy, I think,

at the time. And there was a lot of uproar, right, about people submitting their DNA and how the police were going to use it and things like that. Currently, there are two victims who remain unidentified, Jane Doe, known as Bone 17 and Bones 20. The Seattle Times reported that King County submitted bone fragments from Bones 20 for familial DNA extraction. And I think, you know,

that technology will probably identify both of those individuals, most likely. Yeah, I think so. All it takes is, you know, one of their relatives to be in, to be in one of these databases, right, their DNA, and then they can, go from there. It also makes me wonder if a lot of family members of missing individuals voluntarily submit their DNA to some of these databases now that all of this has been coming out. Right. Or maybe more and more will with the hopes that, you know, that type of technology will help identify their loved one. And they get some answers. Yeah. Today, Gary Ridgeway is in his

70s and he's incarcerated at the Washington State Penn and Walla Walla. John McCoy, a former reporter and author, told A&E that he toured the prison in March 2019 and was told that Ridgeway was kept in confinement and was in poor help. Okay. I don't really feel bad for him though. No, I was just going to say, I don't think, you know, people are shedding a tear for Gary Ridgeway. I think most people would say, okay, it's a good thing he's in confinement. He should be. This is not a guy who should get any perks in prison.

Not that there are a ton, but you shouldn't get any. No sticky buns for you. I'll leave that alone. After the start of the pandemic, Ridgeway was one of 12,000 inmates who could have been eligible for release. Columbia Legal Services filed a lawsuit on behalf of five inmates. asking for their release and arguing that the Department of Corrections could not provide safe conditions during the pandemic. The motion to release Washington inmates was denied by the state Supreme Court in a five to four ruling in April 2020. If it had passed, anyone over the age of 50 could have been applicable for release as well

as those with an underlying health condition or anyone with 18 months or less. of their sentence remaining. Kind of scary. Yeah, and you remember back to this time, Gibbs, it was all over the news. It was. Gary Ridgeway was like this close to being released. And people were in such an uproar over it thinking,

you know, how could this have even come close to happening? Thankfully, it didn't. No, there'd be a lot of people losing their jobs. Yeah. If that would have happened. Yeah. So, you know, as we wrap this one up, Gary Ridgway remains one of the most infamous serial killers in United States history.

I think what makes the Green River killer case so disturbing is the fact that Gary Ridgeway killed, you know, obviously so many victims. His number is unbelievable almost. But also that he did it with absolutely no remorse or feelings of guilt. He called his victims, many of whom were teenage girls garbage. Yeah. You know, we've often speculated that killers thought of their victims, almost like garbage. In the way that they disposed of them, this guy really just came out and said, I just thought of them as garbage. Well, he is rotting in a corner of a cell like garbage.

Yeah. And it should be. Ridgeway had no concern for the lives of us. others. And we said it, right? He even thought about killing his own family. The only reason he didn't is because he knew he would likely be arrested. He was able to live a double life for many years, hiding his true self from his family and his coworkers. But advancements in DNA testing help the police finally arrest him. And the double life thing is always very fascinating to me. You know, when you see these serial killers who get away with their crimes for a very long time.

And then after they're caught, you know, it comes out that, you know, they've got a wife. They've got children. They've held the same job for 25, 30 years. So then you really get into the area of partitioning or compartmentalization where, okay, this is my home life. You know, we're going to garden. We're going to walk the poodle. Yeah.

But I'm also going to be doing these really horrible things. Yes. And is it a, you know, clap on, clap off situation? Or is it just kind of weaving in and out of each one? I mean, that's one of the questions that I really have. A killer like Gary Ridgeway. Is he a killer first and foremost? And then all the other stuff.

You know, the face that he puts on for his coworkers, the relationships that he has, those are just a little part of his life. But 80% of it is, I'm a killer. Or is it 50-50? Does it go back and forth? I don't know. But I really would love to have more insight into that. I think later in life, it was more 50-50.

But I think prior to being married and having a child, it really felt like he was a monster 80-20. Yeah, other than his job, maybe his job was the 20. But, I mean, at the end of the day, you know, he was just an absolute monster and a very prolific serial killer. That's it for our episodes on Gary Ridgeway. We've got some voicemails, Gibbs. You want to check those out? Yeah, sir.

Hey, Mike and Gibby. My name is Stephanie, and I've talked to a couple of messages that I didn't hear. aired. No worries. I still love you guys both, but I'm now listening to the book with the Gabriel Castro victim. And the book just has so much information and the way that this training from their perspective is amazing and heroic. But you guys really need probably. I know you've mentioned before that it's difficult for you, but it's a little. something that's important. And I would love to have another episode of True Crem all the time. I brand-night episodes. I'm all caught up, so I'm looking for the books of the stories. But anyway, guys, I'm not partial to either one of you. I've been listening now for several

years, but I love you guys. And yeah, the details I'm hearing, I would love to hear your respect to on it. Anyway, uh, head on the food and all that goodness. You guys have a good night. All right. We love you too.

We appreciate the voicemail. Yeah, that case is tough for me. Yeah. There's, there's just no way around it. And I'm not saying that I couldn't ever do it, that we could never do it.

Right. But, um, yeah, I don't know. There have been others that I thought we wouldn't do that we've ended up doing. Sure. Maybe that one is just, you know,

it's just some. Time. Need a little time. Need a little time on that one, but it's top. Yeah. The details are brutal. Absolutely. Hi, guys.

This is Susan, Illinois. And I'm listening to Alfred Brown. And Mike Ferguson, you were saying at the, kind of towards the end almost, that you were going back and forth about whether or not a 15-year-old should be life without parole. I was two at first. And I agree the crimes were probably two things. is for me to go with anything other than that. I also feel like even if he could be rehabilitated, you know, maybe a mental problem he could be medicated for, whatever,

that when you get to a different state of mind, if that's even possible, can you even forgive yourself and then be normal? I just don't think that with that type of crime, anything is going to be better for him than just say, maybe in a mental institution or something like that. I don't know, but it's awful, and I think life is fine. Part of this life, it is hard. It does make you so package it for it.

There's always a reason that big speak. So, nope, not listening to that one. So I appreciate all the work that you put into it, and I hope everything's going on. All right. Always love hearing from Susan. And I think what she said makes a lot of sense. You know, the things that we talk about, it's not so cut and dry. No.

I mean, there's a lot of gray area. And depending on, you know, what your stance is on certain things, you may lean one way, another person may lean another way. And that's absolutely fine. Sure it is. But it's also hard, I think, with a lot of this stuff, you go back and forth. Because some of it's just kind of perplexing to figure out what, uh, the right thing to do really is.

Truly is. Thanks, Susan. Yeah, thank you very much. We had no mail bag. No mail this week. So that's it, buddy. Okay. For another episode of true crime all the time.

So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.