True Crime All The Time - George Kent Wallace "The Mad Paddler"

Episode Date: December 16, 2019

George Kent Wallace did his first prison stint at the age of 25. Newspapers dubbed him "The Mad Paddler" because he was convicted of abducting a number of boys in North Carolina and paddling them. Wallace would get out but go on to amass a lengthy prison record. Eventually, he turned to murder.Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss "The Mad Paddler" George Wallace. Wallace impersonated a police officer to stop young boys. He would handcuff them, put them in his car, and then paddle them. But, as with many violent criminals, eventually even that wasn't enough. He began to murder these boys. What would drive a person to want to paddle children and then murder them? This is one of those cases where you're left wondering how one man could commit and be convicted of so many crimes only to be let out of prison time and time again.You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.comSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

and welcome to episode 161 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in True Crime, Mike Gibson. Give me, how are you? Good man. About you. I'm doing great. Good. I'm super excited to be in studio. It's always nice to be in here. It is. It is. It's the culmination of all of our hard work. Yeah. And it's the fun part because you and I get to sit across from each other and tell the story and BS and do what we do. And I like that. It's fun. It is a lot of fun. Speaking of fun, you and I made an announcement about the reviews are in. We did. That we're shutting it down.

We had a lot of fun doing it. We did. And I think we just took a look at the numbers and thought, okay, didn't start out as high as we had hoped. And we just weren't seeing any growth at all. So we made the decision that it would be better to put those resources, time, an effort into something else. And that's what we're doing. That's what we're going to do. And we'll work on that in 2020.

But I wanted to let everybody know because that's the problem with a podcast. Everything is to some people later, right? There's people that are on episode 30. There's people that are on episode 95. Oh, yeah. At some point, they're going to hear that we have a new podcast. Right. And then they're going to wonder why they can't find that podcast.

Yeah. No, you know. Well, when you get to episode 161, you'll find out. that we canceled the podcast. There you go. But that happens with everything. So you're doing good. Yeah, I'm getting over this cold.

Yeah, you've had a little bit of a cold. Yeah, yeah, it's in my chest now, but that's all right. My daughter's home from college for Christmas break, so really happy about that. Yeah, you're having a good family time. Yep, getting to see her a lot. We had some new Patreon supporters. So let's go ahead and give those shoutouts. Okay.

We had Jen Whitman. Hey, Jen. Brittany Bowles. What's going on, Brittany. Kevin jumped out at our highest level. Hey, Kevin. Vanessa McCarthy. What's up, Vanessa?

Brittany Burrum. Hey, BB. Kenna Franco. Hey, Kenna. Jackie Takanori. Oh, Takanori. Yeah, that's fun to say. It is.

Amanda Kedrel. Hey, Amanda. Leah Blair. What's going on? What's, what's, Linda? Linda Blair's sister. Oh, your daughter. Linda?

Yeah. Margaret Iper's daughter. Hey. Or Epper's daughter? Epper's daughter. Either one of those. Epper's doctor. Or one, nothing like that.

Yeah. Which is, there's a good percentage. It could be that. Jody Virgil. Hey, Jody. Whiskey Bent. Hey, Whiskey Bent. Jason.

What's up, Jason? Julie Olson. Hey, Julie. Jessica Sousa. Suza. Julie Roop jumped out of our highest level. Whoop. Roop.

Mm-hmm. Emily. What's going on, Emily? Kelly Bromfield. Hey, Kelly. Sheila Frug. Frugay. Laura Delaney

What's going on in Laura? Terry Bruns. Hey, I think it's Brunez. Is that what you think? I think so. It could be. Yeah. Jason Mujo.

What's going on, Mizzo? Phyllis Shannon. What's up, Phyllis? And Scott Brown. Hey, Scott. So we appreciate all that new support. And if we go back into the Volkibs, this week we selected Drama Lama Dava. Drama Lama Dava.

Yep. Been with us a long time. And I remember that name, obviously. It's one that stands out. Yeah, appreciate it, DLD. We had some great PayPal support as well. Jason Majo. Oh, Majo again.

Jumped out with it with a nice contribution while at the same time becoming a patron. Like that supporter. We had Natasha Crawley. Hey, Natasha. Mary Ashley. What's going on, Mary? And Kathy Snyder. Hey, Kathy.

So big thanks to everybody that supports the show. Yeah. Gibbs, a little bit of crime contact. Yeah, yeah, it's time. It is, and it seems like we just came back. Yeah. But CrimeCon is in Orlando next May. Yeah.

And they've given us our promo code already. So we definitely want to get it out to people. It is TCAT 20, T-C-A-T-T-20. Please make sure you use that when you go to buy your badge if you've already purchased your badge. Yeah. If you wouldn't mind, call them and give them that code. They'll do it retroactive. Right.

And it just helps us. They give us some little perks. Yeah. Sometimes free hotel rooms, things like that. Also, make sure that it gets me there at the end of the day. Yeah. If you want to see Gibby, then he better get a free hotel room because he will not open

his wallet to pay for it. And I will not shack up with Mike. And I will not let you. Those are two things that will not happen. Yeah. So it's a good time. And people have heard to say it for years. CrimeCon is a lot of fun.

we meet the most amazing people every year. I love hanging out with people that we've known for, what, three, four years now. Absolutely. And people who are there for their first time. It's definitely a good time. Sure, you get out there, come down see us. We're all hanging out. It's awesome.

Love it. Yep. A lot of fun. All right. All right. We have an episode out right now on True Crime All Time Unsolved. Gibbs. We are talking about the case of Matthew Margulis.

Yeah. Young. Really young. 13 years old. He was an eighth grader who went fishing and vanished. Yeah. To only be found later, murdered. And so it goes from there, right?

Obviously, you've got the first part. What happened to him, they figure that out. And then who did it and we'll get into all of it. Yeah, chase those rabbit holes. Yeah, so definitely make sure you check that out. All right, Gibbs, are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime all the time? I am. Because you know, I have to know that.

I have to. I am ready. We're talking about George Kent Wallace. And, you know, we like to put the middle names in there for a reason. I think with this guy, you definitely have to put the middle name in there so people know we're not talking about a number of other possible George Wallace's. There's quite a few famous. I'm going to say, there's a couple there that could go one way or the other. Yeah, George Wallace's.

One is the segregationist, racist ex-governor of Alabama who ran for president back in the 60s. I draw the line in the dust and tossed the gauntlet before the feet of tyranny. And I say segregation now, segregation tomorrow and segregation forever. So those are the most famous words of the governor of Alabama, George Wallace, ex-governor. It's hard to believe, Gibbs. It really is that that was like 50 years ago, that we had somebody talking that way. Yeah, that high up. And a lot of people supporting it.

Yeah. A lot of people. It's scary to think about. 50 years doesn't seem like that long ago. No, it's just shocking. Yeah. So we're not talking about that George Wallace. We're also not talking about the comedian slash actor.

George Wallace with the cool voice. Young people got new. They got acid reflux and compulsive shopping. Compulsive shopping. You're a feat. That's what you are. Tell them, baby, boom, we grew up. We had three diseases, didn't we?

We had the measles, the mumps, and the chickenpox. That's all we could afford. Now you got the new, they got another disease called ADD. You don't heard about that one? Tell these young kids, we grew up. ADD ain't nothing. A good ass whipping couldn't cure. So George Wallace, the comedian.

And we're not talking about him. No. So I want to get those two out of the way. The George Wallace that we're talking about was a truck driver who pretended to be a police officer in order to lure young boys to their death. Not he didn't kill all of them, but he did abduct and do things to a large number of young boys. He murdered some. He also used a paddle on.

a number of these young boys against their will, which earned him the nickname the Mad Padler. Not a really cool name that's going to get you a lot of prison cred, though. Well, first of all, you're messing with young boys. Yeah. That gives you no prison cred. No. It actually gives you the opposite.

It gives you a bunch of prison ass weapons. Or finds you prison dead. Yeah, or find you prison dead. So to tell, you know, your cellie or your cell block mates that you paddled young boys against their will, it's probably not something you're going to want to share. No. But let's not worry too much this guy is going to end up on death row. So let's let that cat out of the bag, you know, right away. How you like that?

Paddler. The paddler. Not much about his childhood at all. George Kent Wallace was born February 13th, 1941 in Steubenville, Ohio. Up the road, a few? A few, what? A few miles, a few hours. A few hours, yeah.

It's quite a bit north of us. Yeah. He had two sisters. Again, just not much concrete at all out there about this man's childhood. And then Gibbs, what is out there really comes from him later. in some of his appeals. So some of the court documents involved in his appeals, he said that he had a very difficult childhood, grew up poor in a dysfunctional family.

Okay. You've just talked about, you know, 78% of America. You know, a lot of people grew up poor. A lot of people grew up in dysfunctional families. Depends on what you call dysfunctional. Right. I think a lot of people would say, yeah, my family was dysfunctional.

We didn't all eat together. We ate at different times. There's a lot of that stuff that goes on. There is. Hey, speaking of Dix, speaking of dysfunctional, I just watched Home for the Holidays. That's a dysfunctional family.

I don't know what that is. You ever seen that one with, you reference a new Christmas movie every episode, and I have no idea what it is. It's more wrapped around Thanksgiving, but it had Robert Downey Jr. And Holly Hunter, It's funny.

What is this? Like 20 years old? It's probably like 30 some years old. It's got to be pretty old. But it's good. It's definitely funny, but man, dysfunctional. Yeah. Your Netflix queue alarms me.

It should, man. Yeah. What you choose to spend your time on sometimes concerns me. Netflix. I'm just going to throw it out there. Netflix can't even figure out. I don't know what to recommend you. Because you're all over the map.

You're watching Thanksgiving. movies. You're watching crime movies. You're watching the crown. You're just, you're all over the matter. Right. Can you stick with something? He has alleged that he was sexually abused by his uncle. It's also reflected in some of the court documents that he said he had a number of head injuries when he was young. But I couldn't find any information corroborating any of this. And I think you do have to consider the source. none of this came up at trial it came many many years later as he was fighting for his life so Gibbs i'm not saying it's not true i'm just saying you definitely have to consider the source and i think you have to consider the timing oh i think the timing's critical of the information

people are likely to say a lot of different things in an appeal you're fighting for your life and sometimes it's a last ditch effort. It's the Hail Mary of fighting for your life. So again, he could have gone through all of this because a lot of the people that we talk about have gone through something similar, right, in their childhood. But even so, it's not going to excuse what this guy is going to do. No way. No.

And what we do know is that Wallace served time in the Navy. And then later on, move to North Carolina. at some point in his life where he worked at a lumberyard. He became a truck driver. And essentially, that was pretty much his occupation for the rest of his life outside. He was a truck driver. Okay. Well, we have a lot of truck drivers that listen to this.

Yeah, and I don't know if he was an over the road long haul type trucker or day to day. Day to day. I really don't know. It just said truck driver and all the different articles. Now one thing that I did gather from a lot of different articles is that it doesn't appear that he ever got married. Nothing. Nothing in there about him meeting someone, getting married, having children. So no Mrs. Paddler.

No, no, Mrs. Paddler. I think he was a bachelor for his entire life. The first documented trouble that I could find that George got into happened happened when he was about 25. Gibbs, he was arrested in charge with kidnapping and impersonating a police officer in the Winston-Salem, North Carolina area. We're talking about the towns of High Point, Greensboro, all these towns in North Carolina. This was a big deal around that area. Essentially what happened was over a two-month period. A large number of young boys were abducted. and paddle.

So what happened was five young boys in particular came forward with similar stories of being picked up by a man posing as a police officer. They said that this guy wore a black suit and he flashed a badge. All five boys whose ages ranged from 11 to 16 said that they were driven to a remote location ordered to remove their pants and paddled. Bizarre, man. It is bizarre. Yeah.

The boys also claimed that they were made to paddle themselves while the man watched. Bizarre gets more. Bazaar. Yeah. Bazaar begets bizarre. Yes. How about that? Yeah.

So, Brave, right, that these five boys came forward. A composite sketch was created from the description that the boy's, gave. And then an officer was walking by, saw the sketch on the wall and said, you know what? That looks like George Wallace, George Kent Wallace. Yeah. To me, that's amazing. Well, it is. It means a couple of things. It means, number one, the boys were pretty good at relaying the information. And then number two, it means that the sketch artist was damn good at taking that information and you know making the sketch because the way it was relayed with this you know this guy walked right by and he said oh yeah I know who that is that that's the other amazing thing right

the timing the timing that he happens to walk by the one guy that would maybe put it together so they bring George Walson for questioning and I think Gibbs things went downhill pretty quickly for George because police found in his possession a wooden paddle. So not good. I'm kind of thinking back to our younger days or my younger days. My younger days are younger than your younger days. Yeah. By a little bit, not by a lot. But I think you had the same thing, right? We both had the same thing. The principals had a paddle up on the wall in their office. So where I went to school, each teacher had their own paddle. Oh.

Yeah. And especially Mr. Woodchop had his own super duper paddle. Because he made it. He did. Yeah. And he probably drilled the aerodynamic holes in it. He did. To get more speed.

And it worked well for him and not so well for us. Yeah. That was not the case where I went. I do not remember individual teachers having a paddle. I always remembered as being the threat, right? The threat is, if you don't settle down, I'm going to send you to the principal's office with the knowledge that you're going to get your ass whipped. But either way, there was a number of people probably in every school that had a paddle. The thing was the threat was real that you could get your ass whipped on a daily basis if you didn't do what you were supposed to do.

We don't have that today. No. And it would never fly. Nope. most people would say, no, I don't want other people smacking the, you know what, out of my kids. Back then, I don't know, everybody was okay with it, I guess. I guess, yeah. I mean, you get paddled at school, come home, tell your parents.

And then they might whip you. Yeah. So you really didn't really tell your parents. You know, you're like, hey, I took my beating and went on on them. I think the difference here is that with Wallace, and you already mentioned it, there was some type of sexual component to his paddling. Oh, for sure. He wasn't trying to discipline these kids for something, talking or something that they had done

wrong. Gives one of these boys told authorities that he received over 300 wax from the paddle. Wow. This is in one, at one time. Wow. That's brutal. That is brutal. Depending on, I don't care how hard they are.

300 is a lot. No, that's, you're talking about potentially breaking the skin and. Oh, I'm sure. Yeah. Causing, you know, some actual serious damage. So we have to talk about the paddle. They find this paddle on Wallace. It was said to have been made out of about a half inch thick piece of wood.

So it's not a ping pong paddle, right? No. Much bigger than that. Oh, yeah. It had writing and drawings on it. So on the paddle, were the words board of correction as well as a child should never be punished without a definite end in view. And apparently he had drawn pictures on it as well. There was a picture of a girl and a

boy bending over as if they were about to be paddled. Okay. And then underneath that were the words, victim sign here. Bizarre. That is bizarre. That wasn't all they found, though. In Walses' possession, police found a fake police badge. And I'm thinking back then, Gibbs, this was probably something you could buy at a five and dime store. Yeah, walking there, walking a flea market or something. Yeah, I don't know how real it was. Actually, some toys back then were real, right? If you remember toy cap guns. Oh, yeah. When we were. We were. We were. We were. We were. We were. We were. We were. We were. We were. We were. When we were little, they looked very real. But back then, you didn't have the concerns as you do today.

No, it would not surprise me that you could walk into really almost a toy aisle and buy a badge that looked pretty real. It was probably made out of metal back then, too. It could have been. You know, you had your Ben Franklin's, your Woolworths, you had a lot of little stores like that. Yeah. So they got this guy, right? You've got all these kids saying, this is the person who abducted me.

Just so happens when you go to talk to him, you find his paddle, his fake badge. You've got it all. Wallace was eventually convicted of the kidnapping and assault charges and was handed down a 15 year prison sentence. That seems pretty good, right? You and I talk about this a lot. We're gauging from episode to episode given the time frame. This is the 60s.

You and I have seen a lot of 50, 60, 70s what appear to be serious crimes. And I would say the abduction of five kids and, you know, hurting them is a serious crime. Yeah, I would agree. We've also seen people do worse than this, literally murder someone and not get 15 years from around the same time frame. Yeah. So makes you want to do worse than this. So makes you wonder. It does.

It always makes us wonder. I guess my point is 15 years that doesn't seem like one of those ones where you're going to jump up and down and scream. No. Right. Okay. Somebody said it was 15 years. It seems legit. Yeah.

It was during this case that the newspapers at the time dubbed him the mad paddler. The mad paddler. That's where it came from. Yeah. The problem is he's not going to stop paddling because Wall of the day. was paroled in January of 1976. So he did what? A fair amount of time. Yeah, not too bad. I think

he did maybe 10 of the 15. Yeah. Give or take. Nine or 10. In prison time, that's pretty reasonable. Yeah. But this year's important, right? 1976, it's important because it's that very same year that Wallace is thought to have committed his first murder. And don't we see this all the time? Went to prison, sometimes for quite a while, you know, gets out and just goes back to doing pretty much

the same thing, but what normally happens? Got to raise it up a notch. Yeah, got to escalate it. Yep. That is what seems to always happen. Well, especially back then. I mean, prisons really weren't set up to... Rehabilitated? Yeah. Yeah. Not like they are today. So, I mean, he didn't know anything but what he already, what he did prior to going in. And he probably learned some trick of the trades, you know. Well, yeah, that's the other thing. We don't talk about that a lot, but there have been killers that have disclosed that information later on that, you know, they spent five, 10 years in the joint.

Right. And literally learned from all of these other really bad guys. It's like they're all sitting around in the knitting. circle talking about how they got caught, what they would do differently next time. And it's, you're soaking that information in like you're sitting at the, the feet of the, uh, the master. Yeah. So it does happen.

It did happen. And I'm sure it still does today. The remains of 15 year old Jeffrey Foster were found in Forsyth County, North Carolina. George Wallace abducted this boy. And he beat him over the head. and stabbed him to death. But police didn't connect him to the murder at the time. And that case would go unsolved for many years.

You think maybe they should have been able to connect him? I don't know. I think he should have been on the radar. He should have been on the radar. It's a different MO, though. Well, first of all, he never killed anybody. Right. That we know of before this.

And as far as we know, he had never beat and stabbed anyone. In September of 76, Wallace picked up a 15-year-old hitchhiker named Robert Hill. Late 70s, hitchhiking's big. We don't need to rehash that. Everybody knows that. So they're riding along and they get to where Hill was going. Wallace pulled over and this is when he sprung into action. He grabbed Hill, pushed him down on the floorboard and told him to put his

hands behind his back. But this kid wasn't going for this. He put up quite a fight. So Wallace reached and grabbed a hammer and he just began whacking this 15 year old kid on the top of the head with this hammer. Well, that will do some major damage. Hitting like at least six times. Can you imagine getting it hit in the head with a hard whack with a hammer six times? I can't imagine it once. you would think that would knock you out. You would think. But like I said, this kid was fighting back and I don't know how he did it, especially after being, you know, hit in the head with a hammer as many times as he was, but he was able to

get away. Well, thank goodness. Yeah. He went to police and they later arrested George Wallace. Robert Hill testified at his trial and he was convicted of attempted murder and got a 10-year prison sentence. He was out in four. All right, Gibbs, let's take a quick break and talk about a new podcast. And this is one that I think our listeners are really going to want to check out. It's from the podcast network and it's called Dog Tales. Dogtales tells the true stories of

heroic canines that have gone above and beyond their best friend duties. And we know our audience is chock full of animal lovers. So every Monday, you can embark on a new journey of courage, service an unwavering sacrifice by our most loyal companions. And you're going to hear stories of inspiration that span all breeds, like Buddy, the German Shepherd, who was the world's first official seeing-eye guide dog. There's also Huskies, Balto, and Togo, the sled dogs who made a life-saving medical delivery from Anchorage to Nome, Alaska. So with each episode of dog tales, you're going to get stories that are as unique as the pups themselves. And there's There's no doubt. They are going to bring you closer to the furry friend in your life. So get ready to sit, stay, and roll over with excitement for Parkast's newest series Dogtales. Visit parkast.com slash dogtales or search for dogtales in the Spotify app and listen free today. Wallace was released in October of 81. This is going to start a pattern, Gibby, that we're going to have to talk about because the first time it's 15 out in 10.

Right. And that is thought to have been his first crime, his first on his record. Yeah. Now he has a pretty serious felony record. He commits another pretty serious felony and somehow gets less time and even and out even earlier. Which doesn't make any sense to me. No. And some of this is not going to make sense because it's just the next year, right?

Gets out in 81. in 82, he picked up 18-year-old Thomas Reed from the grocery store where he worked. Now, I say picked up, but Wallace's M.O. Every time was the same. He posed as an undercover police officer. He flashed a badge. He told his victim that he wanted to question them for something, robbery, you name it. Right.

Whatever he could do to get them into. to his vehicle and normally he would handcuff them and sometimes shackle their legs before putting them in the car. Because these people think that he's a real police officer. Sure. Yeah. Mr. Detective here. Yeah. So he did this to Thomas Reed. Then he took Reed to a remote location and murdered him. Police later found Reed's car at the grocery store, but they had no idea what happened to him. And his body was not found until February of 1983. the medical examiner said that he died from blows to the head and stab wounds to the back. And just like with the murder of Jeffrey Foster, Wallace was nowhere on police radar for this murder of Thomas Reed.

And the case remained unsolved for many years. So he's committed to murders, Gibbs, but police aren't going to catch you. Again, these aren't going to be tied to him for many, many years. it was on September 24th, 1982, that Wallace stopped a 16-year-old boy named Rodney Ross while he was out jogging. Once again, like I said, posed as a police officer, flashed a badge. He told Ross that he was a suspect in some house burglaries. But from there, something strange happened. He didn't take this kid to a remote location.

He didn't paddle him. He didn't even try to hurt him. It was almost as if he got him in the car, he grilled him, asking him a bunch of questions about this fake set of burglaries. It was almost as if he was acting out his police fantasy, if he had one. Okay. So he's changing it up a little bit. But then when it was over, he drove this kid home, which is very strange. It is strange.

Because obviously he targeted this kid for a reason. Right. went through all the steps of his normal M.O. But didn't go through with the last part of it, which would be either to paddle him and let him go or to paddle him and then murder him, which is what he's on to now. So all of a sudden he's a big softy, you know, he has a change of heart. He had a change of heart for whatever reason he wasn't feeling it. I don't know. I just thought it was very strange.

Now, he still got convicted of impersonating a police. officer. This guy couldn't do anything without getting caught, except murder two kids. Right. He didn't get caught for that. But he went back to prison. Now, this is a very short stent. He was released in February of 1983, which happened to be right around the same time that the body of Thomas Reed was found. But Wallace didn't stay out long. He literally could not stay out of prison. He went back in April of 83 again for impersonating a police officer. They let him out in June of 84. Later that same year, he went back to prison again after multiple kids identified him through

his license plate number as the man that had stopped them, shown them a badge, told them he was a police officer, and tried to get them into his car. He definitely has an addiction with wanting to. to be a police officer. Well, and that's what I had trouble figuring out. Did he have a police officer fantasy, or was he just used, was that just his ruse? I could not figure it out. That's why that, that one incident really threw me where he grilled the,

the guy like he was a detective and then letting go. I definitely think he enjoyed the power. Yeah, probably. Yeah, probably. And it did lead to his bigger. His ultimate goal. Right. Yeah. So he's back in prison in December of 1984, got out in 1986. So you look back at this time in North Carolina, these last 20 years. He was in prison for like 17 of these years. Yeah. He was out for very small stretches of time. But during those small stretches of time on the outside committed at least two murders and a number of us. other crimes. He just had no self-control. No, and I think it was at this point, right? This last

release from prison that he must have thought, you know what, I need to get that heck out of North Carolina. I'm not doing good in North Carolina. They're catching me every time. He should got out a long time ago. He should have. But that's what he did. Wallace moved to Fort Smith, Arkansas from North Carolina in 1986 after his release. But he did not wait long before Tariff. targeting boys in Arkansas because it was on February 17th, 1987 that Wallace abducted 15-year-old William Vaughn Eric Domer abducted him from a Fort Smith grocery store. This is another common theme. He must have cruised grocery store parking lots.

Yeah. Looking for young boys. A lot of his victims were kids that worked at the grocery store. Bag boys. Bag boys. They were just getting off of work. He used the same MO, posed as a police officer, got Domer into his car, and then he drove him across the state line to a pond near Pocola, Oklahoma. So if you look at the geography, right, Fort Smith, very close to the Oklahoma line. Okay. Fort Smith, Arkansas, Arkansas, Oklahoma boarded each other. Picked him up in Arkansas.

drove him across the state line to Oklahoma. And this is very important when it comes later to trial. Well, you're going to have multiple states involved now. Yeah, that's exactly right. Because when he got to Oklahoma, he paddled William and then shot him to death. Then he dumped his body into the pond. His body was discovered on February 22nd. Then three years later, again, I don't know what he did during these three years.

It's quite a long time for him to lay dormant. And maybe he didn't and we just don't know about it. I doubt it. I think maybe he got away from a few things. Right. That's definitely possible because it was three years later on November 11th, 1990, that Wallace did essentially the exact same thing to a 14-year-old boy named Mark McLaughlin. He abducted Mark from a grocery store by pretending to be a police officer.

This was in Arkansas, right, around the Fort Smith area, drove him across the state line of Oklahoma to the exact same pond. He paddled Mark, then shot him to death before dumping his body in the pond. Mark's body was found in the pond the very next day. So you would think this would be huge news, right? Two boys from the same area found almost four years apart, dead in the exact same pond across to stay at line. Yeah, it should be alarming. Yeah, and I'm sure it was quite a bit of time had gone by. I think it would have been even more alarming if it had been the next week, the next month.

But still, you have to know something is going on. These boys are both abducted from grocery stores in Arkansas, both of their bodies found in the same pond in Oklahoma. You know, Gibbs, that's not a coincidence. You know you got a killer that's performed both. Both of these. The same person. Most likely you have a serial killer on your hands. And then on December 9th, 1990, Wallace put on his blue suit, hopped into his 1981 Chevy, and went out looking for his next victim.

With him, he had his kit, right? He had a fake badge, handcuffs, leg irons, and a knife. Leg irons. Yeah. Wow. He actually did shackle a lot of. these boys. So he pulled into the parking lot of the Food for Less grocery store in Van Buren, Arkansas. 18 year old Ross Ferguson was getting off his shift at the grocery store. This is around

7 p.m. He was getting ready to head home. Wallace stopped him in the parking lot and posing as a police officer told Ferguson that he was wanted in connection with a robbery. Basically what he said was that Ross's vehicle matched the description of a getaway vehicle in a robbery. So he's going to handcuff him and put those shackles on his legs and do the whole bit. Yeah. Frist him loaded him into the back of his car. Then he drove to a remote area, pulled the vehicle over. Ferguson later told authorities that Wallace asked him, quote, when was the last time your father had given you a whooping? Okay.

When's the last time you had an ass whooping boy? Yeah. Huh. That's essentially what he asked him. He said some other things too along the lines of what would, what would you do if I tried to give you one? I think Ross might have said, you know, you, he's not going to end up well. You know, I'm going to kick your ass.

You're going to have to kill me. I don't know. A lot of different things like that. But that's what happened. He pulled this young man's pants and underwear down around his ankles and began beating his bare rear end with some type of stick like object for what was said to have been about five minutes. It's a long time. That is a long time. You don't think about five minutes being a long time until you do a certain type of activity, right? Five minutes of a TV show is nothing. But punch a heavy bag for five minutes straight and tell me how that feels. Yeah.

It's different. It's a different period. It's the same period of time, but it's, it feels different. But to get whipped for five minutes straight, that's a long time. The thing is, Gibbs, it wasn't a paddle this time. Like I said, it was some kind of stick like object. I've seen reports that said it was a stick. I've seen some that said it was a rod.

I've even seen some that said it was a paint roller handle. What was like one of those, I can call it like a broomstick handle, but they make those like short broomstick handles for your paint roller handles. Yeah, I'm not talking about the ones that you see today, the plastic ones with the metal part. I think this was more of the almost like a plunger handle. Yeah. Would it be similar. Yeah. Right.

It has the little grooves on the one end. Yeah. And you can screw something onto it. that's what I was thinking in my mind. That would hurt. As far as a paint roller handle. Any of them would hurt for sure. But the mere fact that I've already talked about Ferguson later talking to authorities

means what? He gets away. Yeah. We know he does. So he's been beaten with this stick like object. After that happened, Wallace pulled him out of the car and began walking him toward a pond and Gibbs, you have to think about what's going on in this young man's mind. It's been all over the news. That's why I mentioned the fact that it was a big deal that two boys

had been abducted from Arkansas, both of their bodies found in the same pond in Oklahoma. This kid has to be thinking to himself that this same fate is awaiting me. And I do believe that's exactly what Wallace had planned. I think he was going to do the exact same thing. Well, I'm sure he was. He's not afraid to do it today. No, we know he's not. We know he's not.

And he did stab Ross Ferguson six times with a knife. Ferguson collapsed. And it was at that point that he later told authorities he made the decision that he was going to play dead. He was essentially going to play possum. Right. And he even did that while Wallace was dragging him by his feet, dragging his body down the hill towards the pond. So that takes some guts, right? You've made the decision that it's in your best interest to play dead. Well, you have to commit to it now. And we've had a few cases that

we've done where it's paid off. And it pays off here. Now, it doesn't pay off every time, but it did pay off here because what happened was, so Ross is playing dead. Wallace drags him down near the pond, he reaches down to take off the handcuffs and the leg irons. He's about ready to throw this kid into the pond. I think he believes he's dead. But Ross isn't dead. And it's at that point where he's finally free of the handcuffs and the leg irons that all of a sudden he just jumped up.

He bull rushed this guy, knocked him over and took off running. Smart boy. Yeah. He ran up this hill. Wallace jumps up, he's running after him. Ross was able to make it to Wallace's car. He got inside and he locked the doors just as Wallace was reaching for the handle. This is scary, man.

Think about this happening. In real time, it's scared that you know what out of you. Well, sure. Because this guy's trying to get into the car. He can't let you go. No. You've seen him. You know exactly what he's done.

He knows the first. the first place you're going to go. And that's the police. Yeah. Incredibly, when Ross looked down, he saw the keys in the ignition. So he fired that bad boy up and I'm sure he punched it. Oh, I would have. Man. At one point, he later said that he tried to run over this guy, Wallace. Yeah. But he missed him and drove to a nearby farmhouse, got the residence, and they called police. So the police came out and, you know, they took care of him, but then they also began searching the area around this pond. Didn't take them long to come upon George Wallace walking.

He's out in the middle of nowhere, no car. I can just imagine this conversation going down. Hey, mister, what are you doing out here? Where's your car? Why are you out here in a full suit at night? Now, for me, I can only assume that I would ask those questions in a real snarky tone, because I feel like that's the way it would come out. But what happened was they arrested Wallace on the spot and they took him to the station.

I don't think it was that hard. Number one, his victim got away and has his car. Now, I think Wallace tried to give some lame story that this kid attacked him, stole his car, you know, but you have to look at it. Ross Ferguson has six stab wounds. I think he was stabbed a bunch of times in the back. He got one in the arm. Doesn't really flow with the story of somebody attacked me and tried to steal my car.

Yeah. And somehow I was able to stab him six times, but yet they still got away with my car. Ross Ferguson did later pick George Wallace out of a lineup. Authorities ultimately charged Wallace with the kidnapping and attempted murder. of Ross Ferguson. And he admitted to the crime during questioning, but that's when they started to ask him about the two boys found dead in the pond in Oklahoma.

And eventually he confessed to those two and pretty much told police everything that happened. At that point, he said, I'm all in. Yeah, I guess. I'm always amazed at how people seem to crumble, right? you have these big bad wolf guys that are out there wreaking havoc, they're serial killers, they're this, they're that. But you get them in the room with a couple of detectives and they break down, they start crying

and they say everything. That's a wah, wah, wah. Doesn't that seem strange to you? It does. I mean, why lay it all out there? Why not go out fighting? Yeah. Why not just keep your mouth shut?

I'm glad they don't because we get all the information. But to me, it's like such opposite ends of the spectrum. You have these guys that plan things out. And sometimes they can be very meticulous, right? In the way that they put together their kit and they surveil their targets and they look for their opening and they do all these things. But they can't resist two detectives talking to them in a room. Maybe they just finally said, you know what?

I've had enough. And I think that does happen in some cases. They're going to do it until they get caught. And once they get caught, they're done. But here's the other thing I don't understand. You know, these people have an urge. We talk about it all the time. Frog demon, urge, compulsion, you call it whatever you want.

How are they giving up on that so easily? Right? These compulsions are very strong. They know that if they're convicted and confined to a prison, sell, they can't do whatever it is they want to do anymore. But yet they just, it's like they give up so easily. They don't go down swinging, fighting at trial. I don't mean physically swinging. I mean, putting up a defense and keeping your mouth shut and making the state prove that you did what they're saying you did. Because once he goes to prison, he's not going to be able to get his fix.

That's what I'm saying. Yeah. But they seem all too willing to go. And again, he told police that he paddled these two boys before shooting them and dumping them in the pond. He even led police to the field where he dumped the 22 that he used to shoot both boys. And authorities were able to match that gun up ballistically as the weapon used in both murders. So they have a lot of evidence. They have some really good evidence against this guy. They also questioned him about the earlier murders of the. Jeffrey Foster and Thomas Reed, but Wallace didn't confess to those. And they didn't have enough

evidence to charge him. Which again, for me, is weird. I mean, if you're going to confess this stuff, why not just... Yeah, why pick and choose? Yeah. Just lay it all out there. You're pretty much done for at this point. Oh, you're done for. So why not go ahead and just say, yeah, that was me. That was me too. I mean, why not be like a Henry Lee Lucas, man, to just take credit for everything? Well, but that's a problem, too. Because then you don't know what's true in what. it's not true. Now, Gibbs, something interesting happened after Wallace was arrested. Another person came out to tell his story. 18-year-old James Branson of Fort Smith, Arkansas, told the police that a man posing as a police officer picked him up, took him to the exact same

pond where the two murder victims were found. He said it happened sometime in the fall of 1990. and he told a very similar story. He said the guy poses as a police officer. He was handcuffed. He even had the leg irons on. Yeah. But he said the man who he later identified as Wallace set him free because I guess he was just putting up too much of a fight.

He was screaming. He was he was kicking at this guy with the leg irons on. Huh. He was not going to be controlled. at all, even though he was shackled and handcuffed and everything. So he wasn't willing to kill somebody until he got the paddling in. Yeah, I think that there might be something to that because it was almost as if this guy was too much trouble.

He couldn't do maybe what he wanted to do because he couldn't constrain him or restrain him to the point where he could get his pants off or whatever it is, you know, all the things that were part of his MO. And maybe for that reason, he just decided, you know what, this is too much for me. And he let the guy go. You and I sometimes talk about, what do these people think? You know, later on, when all of the very heinous details of the crimes come out, you have to believe for the rest of your life, you're one of the luckiest people a lot.

Oh, man. You see that picture of that guy on the. late news on the evening news and you're like, wait a minute, that's that guy. And you're thinking, then you read what he did. And you're thinking, man, that could have been me. Well, and you're thinking it was me, right? Well, yeah. All the way up until the point where, you know, these other two boys, they were killed and thrown in the pond. I was at the pond. And all of a sudden, this guy let me go. Yeah. I am so lucky. Now, it doesn't mean that you're not living through a bunch of trauma. Oh.

And you're probably going to therapy. You have things to work out, but you have to consider yourself extremely lucky. Plus, you can trump about anybody around the table when it comes to story time. Oh, yeah. Nobody's got that story. You just wait until it's all, it's like that George Costanzo and he needed to tell a sad story to get his apartment, you know, to that committee. Oh, he did one of the ships. Yeah.

He went down on the ship. One of the ships. Yeah. This would definitely trump all that. So Gibbs, we kind of talked about the Arkansas, Oklahoma thing, right? Kidnappings happened in Arkansas. The murders happened in Oklahoma. Both states charged Wallace.

He was tried in Arkansas first. And he pleaded guilty to the kidnapping and attempted murder of Ross Ferguson, as well as the kidnapping of Domer, McLaughlin, and Branson. He was sentenced to three life terms. But I guess, you know, as these trials are going on, he got a lot of death threats. I don't forget, these crimes were committed against, you know, young boys. Yeah. Some were 18, but they were young boys.

People were not happy with this guy. No. Nobody was happy. We know people do not take kindly to child murders. That includes other prisoners. It includes prisoners. It includes the rest of society as well. I guess in one court session, Mark McLaughlin's mother, Bonnie, she tried to lunge at George Wallace,

either probably as they were bringing him in or taking him out. I don't know, Gibbs. Who knows what would have happened if she could have gotten her hands on him. You know that mom strength. Oh, yeah. So you get a mom that is either scared for her child or angry over somebody that's done something to their, her child, she might have just snapped his neck right off. Could have. Adrenaline pump up. Right. That mom strength's no joke. No, it's not, man. It's good stuff. So that took care of his

trials in Arkansas. Then he went on trial in Oklahoma in March for the murders of William Vaughn, Eric Domer, and Mark McLaughlin. Prosecutors in Oklahoma saw the death penalty for a number of factors, based on his previous record, for one, it was lengthy. We talked about it. I mean, they said, and I think rightfully so, this is a man that posed a continuing danger to society. Well, his track record. I was going to say, you take one look at his track record. How could you not think that if this guy ever sees the light of day, what's he going to do? Well, he's a habitual paddler. He's proven time and time again that as soon as he gets out, he's going to go back to doing what he wants to do.

Yeah. He doesn't seem to care about the ramifications. He's used to prison. I mean, he's been in prison more times than out of prison, it seems like. He spent more years in prison than he spent outside of the prison. So, I mean, you know what? Yeah. I mean, do you spend that much time in prison, you don't really care if you're going to go back.

In his adult life, that's definitely true. Yeah. Yeah. You just don't care. I mean, right? I mean, he's not going to care. He obviously didn't. So he takes the risk.

And I think that's another question for me that I try to figure out with some of these people. I don't think they want to get caught because, again, they don't want to lose the ability to do whatever it is that they're doing. But like you said, to them, it's worth the risk. Yeah. They're willing to put it all on the line, including in a lot of cases their very life, to do whatever it is. that they're compelled to do or this compulsion, this urge or whatever. Yeah. They did have a competency hearing for Wallace.

And the ruling came that he was competent to stand trial. And it was just the very next day after that that he pleaded guilty to both murders. Now, again, why did he do that? Why did he give up so easily? Was it because he already had three life sentences and he knew he was never getting out? was it because he knew they had a mountain of evidence against him. He was going to lose anyway. I don't know.

I think you could make the argument that at that point, why not? Yeah. Why not draw it out and see what happens? Wallace told the court, quote, it is accurate to say that had I not been caught, I would be doing the same thing today. Again, why do you keep telling the court things that, make you look horrible.

Yeah. You don't need to add anything. You're essentially saying, hey, good thing you got me. Because if I was out right now, I'd be searching for victims. He didn't stop there. He apparently told them that he had planned to use a butane lighter to torture his next victim. Okay. Now he's laying out what his plans were.

Yeah. If I get out, if I'm out, this is what I'm going to do. I think we both know, and I think everybody listening knows, this guy was never going to stop on his own. If anything, he was going to continue to escalate in his future crimes, right? Eventually, the paddling and the murder would probably not be enough. He would have to go more outlandish. Now he's talking about torturing people with fire. Probably not hard for the judge.

to hand down two death sentences, which is what he did. Once he heard that, Wallace told the court that he wanted to die as soon as possible. Here's another guy thinking, I don't want to spend my days sitting in a jail cell. If you're going to put me to death, get it over with. Yeah. That's how I'd want it, though. If I got to, was it going to be put to death, I, let's get just rolling now. Does this do it? Yeah. Everybody thinks that until you, you may, you may, you make that long walk down the green mile. And then you're like, what did I do? What did I do?

Why did I say that? Appeal. Appeal. I didn't mean that. He does the same thing. You know, he says, I want to die as soon as possible. This is another guy that waived his right to appeal. Now, there are mandatory appeals that take place.

His attorney made the argument that the Oklahoma murders, had actually occurred in Arkansas rather than Oklahoma. And like we said, they did occur very close to the line. You know, both of these spots where the victims were abducted and where the murders occurred, they were not far from the line. So he was trying to muddy the waters and say, you know, this conviction can't stand because, number one, you convicted this guy of murder in Oklahoma. Well, he didn't commit the murder.

in Oklahoma. He actually committed them in Arkansas. But the courts weighed all the evidence and they ruled that, nope, they did occur within the state of Oklahoma. And then as the years went by, I think Wallace changed his tune a little bit. He started raising his own arguments. He said his counsel was deficient, which is pretty strange, right, coming from a man who so vehemently said he wanted to die, he waived his rights to appeal. I guess a little time to maybe sit and think, we'll change your mind. Probably would. Yeah.

About wanting to be executed. But it didn't matter. All of his appeals were denied. Then in 1996, George Wallace finally confessed to authorities that he did murder Jeffrey Foster in 1976 and Thomas Reed in 1982. Now, he's also suspected in the death of 12-year-old. Alonzo Cade, whose body was found in a drainage pond just east of Fort Smith, Arkansas. Alonzo was last seen on November 24th, 1990 at a community college basketball game.

Police have said from the very beginning that George Wallace is the prime suspect in that murder, but he's never been charged and he's never admitted to it. Apparently, he was scheduled to talk with investigators right before his execution, but he canceled it. So most likely he murdered this 12 year old boy. I don't know for sure. And if he did, he knew he was about ready to die. He wasn't even man enough to tell investigators, give them the information that they could relay to the family so the family would know for sure what happened to their little boy.

Right. Wasn't man enough to do that. He said, you know what? I don't want to talk to you. I mean, it's just shitty. I mean, you're, chicken shit. Yeah, I mean, you're headed out.

Just go ahead and clear your conscience, man. Clear it. Yeah. You like that. You're headed out. Yeah. Like, I'm done. I'm done eating.

You can have my seat. Yeah. George Kent Wallace was put to death on August 10, 2000, by lethal injection at the Oklahoma State Penitentiary. Ross Ferguson attended the execution, as did nine members of, of the two murder victims families. Ferguson joined the Navy just a few months after he was attacked.

He served five years in the Navy. And then later he became a paramedic and raised a family. So a very traumatic experience. You know it was for both him and a couple of the other individuals that were not killed, but he seems to have come through it very well. I'm sure there were a lot of bumps in the road. and like I said, a lot of therapy and things like that. But you like to see that where, you know, this guy's persevered.

And he's gone on. He's lived his life. And he's not let what this guy did to him define his life. He's choosing what he's going to do. Which is great. It really is. Yeah. Because it could go to the other direction.

It can. And you hate to see it when it does. Yeah. I mean, we've covered some victims that survive. and thankfully we hear more positive stories than negative stories. Yeah, but there are negative stories. There are. And we definitely know that.

So Gibbs, I think in wrapping up, as often happens in a lot of these cases that we talk about, there are a ton of people that feel that George Wallace should have been kept in prison much longer than he was. I mean, I think I said it. The guy had like 13 felony convictions on his wrap. record and a time span of however many years. Yeah. It's pretty hard not to look at those and see the patterns in his crime. So it's like you get out, but you keep doing the same thing over and over.

Eventually, when does someone say, hey, this guy's a habitual offender. He's going to do this same thing as soon as we let him out. So let's not let him out. Right. We're going to keep you here with us. And for quite a while, that didn't happen. And the man went on to commit more crimes and more murders. I guess the way I look at this one, this was not a one stint in prison where we felt

like he was let out too early. This was like 13, 15 separate stints where they kept. letting him out. At some point, it's like you have to look back at this guy's record and see, okay, he's already did this,

this, this and this. A habitual offender, man. Why do we keep, yeah, fall into the same cycle with this guy? Yeah, I don't know.

The system, it gets to me sometimes because, you know, you look at some people that are put away for, what are really little stupid petty crop.

And then you look at some people that commit very serious crimes over and over, but they keep getting out. You definitely feel for the victims and their families. And this is a tough case. These were, you know, young kids who were probably Gibbs raised to respect authority and especially to respect police officers. And that's a good thing. We should be respectful of police officers. officers. The problem is Wallace used that to his advantage. He posed as a police officer, knowing that these young kids would probably be compliant, respectful, do what he was asking them to do

because why would a police officer ask you to do something if it wasn't right? Right. Unfortunately, he wasn't a police officer. He was scamming them, yeah, conning them or whatever you want to call it. But that's it. That's the case. of George Kent Wallace, again, not to be confused with the ex-governor of Alabama, George Wallace, or the comedian, George Wallace. I actually enjoyed the comedian, George Wallace. I hope so. If you had said, I really enjoyed the ex-governor segregationist George Wallace.

Yeah. I would have some words for you. I'm sure you would. And I think we'd lose some listeners. I think you'd walk me out the door. All right, we got some voice mails. You want to check those out? Yeah.

Hey, Mike and Gibby. This is Jessica from Sherman, Texas. And I have been been watching you since I first heard you. And it was the first episode, which was Tom, or Andre Thomas, from Sherman, Texas. And he did all his craziness the year we actually moved here. So after that episode, I was totally hooked. I've been a true crime fan since probably murder. wrote back in the day. I think you guys are great at what you do. I really enjoy listening to all

of your antics and your banter back and forth. You're just too funny. And that's about all I've got here in Texas. So what do you say? Keep your own time ticking. Thanks. We always get them Gibbs with the ones that happen where they live. Boy, that Andre Thomas one was rough. It was rough. Yeah. And we still get messages from people saying, Ooh, that one was hard to get through. But, you know what it did? We didn't do it. You and I did not do those things.

No, it was not us. We're just telling the story of what that person did. Doesn't make it any easier to get through them. Especially when you do the research. Mike and Gibby, what is going on? This is Ryan from Ohio, Iberia, Ohio, which is about an hour north of Columbus, Go Buck's, O.H. I stumbled on your podcast a few months ago, and I'm on episode.

So 95 right now. So I'm excited to see what you guys are going to do for the big 100. You guys are awesome. Love you guys. I am totally termed team Fergie for sure. Go team Furgy. Sorry, Gibby. Love you guys.

Keep it up. Yeah, never heard of that town. You don't hear that very often. For sure. He's very confident. Yeah. In his team ferginess. Yeah.

What was his name again? I don't remember. You've totally written him all. No. So Buckeyes. Our Buckeyes are doing good. Yeah, they're doing really good. They're in the playoffs.

They're going to have a really tough game against Clemson. What I liked about him was he's on 95. He's so focused that he will not even look ahead five episodes on his podcast player to see what 100 is. Come on back to Team Givy. That's a gamer. That's a gamer right there. He's so focused. Hey, guys.

This Ryan here. I just wanted to let you guys know. I've been watching your podcast, listening to your podcast now. for about four months and I just cannot get enough. I listen at work when I'm driving, just all the time. I actually went back and listened to the Iceman versus Cook-Lenkey. He's always been very interesting to me. So I just kind of went back in time and listened to that.

It was very good. I'd like to listen to the one that you and you guys both did together, but I can't seem to find it. Also, I just wanted to throw a recommendation out there about the Texas killing field. It actually happened like a mile away from my dad's houses where all these bodies were being found. So it's always been another case. It's been really interesting to me.

Anyways, I appreciate all you guys do. Have a nice day. Thank you. All right. Well, we appreciate that. So the reason why the Kiklinsky episode that Gibby and I did is hard to find is because it's only available on Patreon. I will say it's much better. It is much better.

I mean, obviously the ones we do now are much better than when we're. we started. We didn't know what we were doing and, you know, we weren't podcasters, really. We were just trying something out. But that one always had something missing, right? That's the only episode that you weren't on. And there was something missing. We fixed it on a Patreon episode. Maybe that's the episode we should put out for Christmas. As a Christmas present to everyone. Yeah, here's the updated version. Redux. Redux. Maybe that's a good idea. We might do that. Maybe. And that would allow us to take the full week of Christmas off.

Yeah. Let you guys hear the reducks. Why do you always use the words I use back at me? How you like that? Hi, my name is Megan. I've been listening to your podcast for the past year. I really love it. I've been interested in true crime pretty much all my life.

I come from a long line of police officers. My grandpa was the chief of police in northern Utah, and he actually worked on the Ted Bundy case with the FBI. Anyway, I just want to thank you for your podcast and keep your own time ticket. Thank you. She's a gambler. I think that's the first person I've ever met named Vegas. Yeah.

Very cool. It was really cool. So is that her grandpa worked on the Bundy case. I know. That is actually a big deal. I just got a book in the mail today, a new book about Bundy. Did you? Mm-hmm.

Yeah. From one of the publishing houses that we're working with. sent it to me to read. Her grandpa was Jack Black, aka Blackjack. Jack. You really had lost me there for... I knew, yeah. Not that I really found it.

I kind of lost it. Even after that, but maybe a few people might have hung with me on that. The Blackjack I got when you switched around, Vegas, okay, I got it. But Jack Black I didn't get it. Plus just age-wise, that makes no sense. Well, you know, I just... Jack Black is not old enough to be her grandfather. It was just a name, man.

Okay. I'm just, you know. Hi, Mike and Gibby. It's Alicia Little. As you can tell, I'm pretty sick. Anyway, I wanted to call and say, I was very sad to see the announcement that, um, your guys are not going to be doing, um, the other podcast anymore because I find it very funny. But I understand if you don't have enough support for the show, it's hard to do it.

Um, I wanted to let you guys know that I actually live in Rotterdam, New York, which is about probably 10 minutes. from Gilderland. I wanted to let you know that, Mike. It's not called Gilderland. It's Gilderland. Anyway, my aunt lived across the street from the Chen family and found them to be quiet but very pleasant.

Never saw a lot of traffic coming in and out of the house. And everybody in that neighborhood did think that the mob, the Chinese mob, was a joke. They didn't think that was really what was going on. But anyway, I wanted to just say hi because I know the holidays are coming and say Merry Christmas. And keep your own time ticket. and six guys. So we appreciate that from Alicia. She is a huge supporter of the show.

I didn't hear the difference, Gibbs. Did you? I was going to say, shocker that another New York name. I know. It is shocking. Gilderland, Gilderland. There is a difference there, I guess. Gilderland.

Disneyland. You don't call it Disneyland. Newland. Newland? New Zealand? New Zealand? You've forgotten the rest of it. But here's a little fact, a little tidbit that I know.

know about Alicia is she actually yesterday I believe she celebrated her 40th birthday really happy birthday so happy birthday I don't know if she's real happy about me giving out the actual number but it's out there now it's out there now I can't take it back so but anyway we appreciate everyone listening we appreciate the support we did have some mailbag Gibbs one Mike Loder from actually New Zealand send us in a bunch of Harley chips that's awesome man it is cool yeah Auckland. There's a lot of cool ones. Auckland. All right, buddy.

You ready to get out? I'm ready to get out. Well, that is it for another episode of True Crime All the Time. So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.