True Crime All The Time - Gerald and Alice Uden

Episode Date: March 30, 2020

In 2013, 71-year-old Gerald Uden and his 74-year-old wife Alice were arrested at their Missouri home. The couple had been keeping some very dark secrets for over 30 years. Alice had killed her 3rd husband in 1974. She then married Gerald. Gerald murdered his ex-wife and his two adopted sons in 1980. It took decades but the police finally put the pieces of the puzzle together and would hold these two people accountable for their murders in Wyoming.Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the twisted but fascinating case of Gerald and Alice Uden. Was there a connection between these murders that happened six years apart? Could it be a coincidence that Gerald murdered his ex-wife and adopted boys after he married Alice and just happened to dispose of their bodies in the same manner she had? Many different claims were made about the murders. The question is, who is telling the truth?You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise and donation informationAn Emash Digital ProductionCheck out Sakara at: https://www.sakara.com/tcatt?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=tcattSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 176 of the True Crime All The Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in True Crime, Mike Gibson. How are you? Hey man, I'm good. Man, about you. I'm doing great. Yeah. I'm doing as great as can be in the current environment that we're in.

Just changed it up a little bit. It is. And everybody out there is having to deal with it. I know it's tough for a lot of people. It's driving me crazy to all these people home now too, man. You know, especially where I live, I hear them all. They're, you know, not used to having all those people home at the same time. Oh, all the time?

Yeah. Yeah. I can imagine. People are probably thinking, what, your family or something? No, I'm talking about my apartment. Yeah. All the other tenants. Yeah.

And everybody's, uh, for some reason, you have a lot of tap dancers. I do. Above you. And that was probably a bad move on your part. But, yeah, I think she thinks she's really good or something. I don't know. So, yeah, my family's home. And I think they're getting a little.

Cabin fever. Yeah. Now, see, me personally, I don't. Number one, I'm home all the time anyway. I don't ever have a problem finding something to occupy my time. Now, most of that time is spent researching true crime. Sure. But I play video games and I do this, I do that.

My wife and kids have a much harder time. Number one, they can't sit still for more than about 20 minutes. But they did go out a few weeks ago ahead of the kind of quarantine. They bought jigsaw puzzles. They bought needlepoint. They bought all kinds of everything they thought they would like. They're going to have fun doing all those crafty stuff, huh? Yeah, some of it they're having fun.

Some of it, they decided it was not so much fun. Oh, yeah. My wife also decided that she had not done cross stitch in so long. Yeah. Her eyes are not cross stitch worthy anymore. Oh. Because, you know, cross stitch is very small. Sure.

And so. I mean, I don't know that, but. Yeah. For those of you that have done it. And Gibbs acts like he hasn't done it. Yet most of his walls are filled with cross-stitch designs that he's done over the years. Beautiful thing, man. They're beautiful.

Yeah. Next thing up is macormay. But I will say this, Gibbs. And we just talked about it on Patreon. We have a brand new Patreon episode out right now from the both of us. We hope everybody is staying safe. And that's all you can do. and we will make it through this current crisis.

Sure we will. Financially, health-wise, we'll get through. But right now it's rough. There's no doubt about it. Definitely have an impact. I mean, to that point, they just made the announcement that they are pushing CrimeCon back to October. Right.

I knew they were going to have to either cancel it or push it back or something. There was no way that with what's going on, we were all going to be meeting in what was about a month and a half. Right. It just wasn't going to happen. So it makes good sense. And my wife is a teacher and she's waiting to see when they're going to go back to school. And I'm like, I don't think you are.

I really don't. But we'll see. But I'm still working, man. You got to. Somebody's got to work. Yeah. I'm essential in a lot of different ways. So we had some Patreon supporters.

Let's give our shoutouts. We had Frank. What's going on, Frank? Susan Schultz. Hey, Susan. Philip Gallagher jumped out of our highest level. Hey, you watermelon crushing Gallagher guy, you. Jennifer Royal jumped out of our highest level.

Hey, Jennifer. Ty Steerman. Hey, Steerman. That sounds like a rodeo name. It does. Or, yeah. The perfect name for like a bronch rider. Yeah, I bet he wears some chaps.

Chaps. Yeah. Robert and Paige Skevington jumped out of our highest level. Hey, Skevingtons. Tamara Christie. What's going on, Tamara? Mike McComb. Hey, McCombs.

Bill Gagney. What's going on, Bill? Marcus Vandevere. Man, MVD. Lisa Llewellyn. What's going on, Lisa? Debbie Turner. Hey, thanks, Debbie.

Alyssa. Elyneberger. What's going on, Alyssa? Teresa Huffman. Hey, Teresa. Colleen Harrigan, Misenholder. Got some long names here. It is.

Haley Cusis. Hey, Haley. David Goncab. What's going on, gone calves? And last but not least, Brandi Sanchez. Hey, Brandi. So we appreciate all that support. Then if we go back into the vault, Gibbs.

This week we selected Melissa Collins. Cool. Hey, Melissa. Been with us a long time. Yeah. And we appreciate the Patreon support, both the new support, the continued support. I think for us, Gibbs right now more than ever, because, you know, we're in uncertain times when it comes to podcast advertising. Yeah.

Right now with the hit that the economy is taking, there's no doubt. It's going to take its toll on everything. And that includes podcast advertising. advertising, you and I have to figure out how to stay afloat, just like everybody else does through this crisis. We're going to have to. And our Patreon folks go a long way towards helping us do that. I definitely appreciate it.

That's a good episode you put out there today. Yeah. The episode that just came out last night is on the Grand Prix murders in Houston, Texas, back in in 1983, I think it was. Yeah. We had some PayPal support as well, Sue Raglan. Hey, Sue. Lanya Nielsen.

Hey, Lanya. Lisa Currah. What's going on, Lisa? And Karen Martin. Hey, Karen. So thank you very much for that. So in addition to the new Patreon episode that's out right now, we have an episode out of Unsolved and it's two unsolved murders in one episode.

It is. But they both happened in Cheyenne, Wyoming. It's the unsolved murder of Shawnee Lee Smith and the unsolved murder of Jamie Christopher Kamai. So that's a good episode. So definitely make sure you check that out. All right, buddy, are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time? I'm ready, man. We're talking about Gerald and Alice Uden, a couple in their 70s who were arrested in charge

with murder. But here's the thing. They weren't accused of killing the same people. Alice was accused of killing her previous husband back in 1974. Gerald was accused of killing his previous wife. and his two adopted sons back in 1980. So basically what you have is this couple who in their 70s are living out their golden years. Sure.

Right. Sitting on the porch in Missouri in their rocking chairs and police come and nab them for these 30, 40 year old murders that happened in Wyoming. Gives how shocked would most people be to see their 70 something years? year old parents or grandparents, whisked away by the police and accused of decades-old murders. I think they would be very shocked, man. Because they don't know these people as being capable of that. Yeah. A lot, most people would.

Unless they're related to that tiger guy. I don't know, man. Joe Exotic? Yeah. Love that guy. Yeah. Now, I don't love what he did. Don't get me wrong.

But I'm telling you, if they would have been able to. to make that reality TV show. Yeah. I would have never missed an episode. There is something about that guy that is so fascinating. Pulled you in, didn't it? Oh, I could just, you know, watch him, listen to him talk. Because you never know.

He's going to say something. Oh, yeah. And it's going to be off the wall. And then I think on top of that, you have the mystery of whether or not the murders had anything to do with each other. And we'll get into all of this. But they happen six years apart. and these people end up together, right, living out the rest of their days.

This is definitely a very strange case with details that span many decades. It was 2013 when Gerald and Alice Udden were living in Chadwick, Missouri on about 60 acres near the Mark Twain National Forest. So they're in the Ozarks, Gibbs. Hey. Which I know is one of your favorites. It is, man. both places and television shows. It really is.

I'll be binging that when the new season comes out. That will be first on your list. Absolutely. I know how much you love that show. Gerald was 71 years old. Alice was 74. Alice was a trained nurse, but both had worked as long-haul truckers. There were reports that several of their adult children had lived with them over the years as well.

So basically, they had carved out this life for themselves. in Missouri, and I think they were pretty happy by most accounts. Here's a clip produced by the Kansas City Star with a neighbor talking about the Udans. I bought eggs from her. She raised chickens. I bought eggs from her. She'd come over. I'd go over there.

We'd compare sewing notes per se because she sewed and I sewed. We'd discuss grandchildren, what hers are getting into, what mine are getting into. the ages that they are. To me, she was just a very gentle grandmotherly type person and would do anything for you, to give you the sure offer back and ask no questions. I was totally shocked. I still am. I just, I can't believe that it happened.

It's, I mean, somebody that is as nice as she is, and as gentle as she is. And Gerald also. And in my mind, they're both still innocent until proven guilty. And we'll always feel that way. So maybe a little bit out of order, Gibbs. They're talking about what I'm getting ready to talk about now.

But the reason that I like that clip is there's not many cases like this where, you know, somebody's in their 70s, right? husband and wife. Yeah. Are both arrested and we're getting ready to talk about it. And you hear from neighbors who are like, yeah, we hung out with them, bought eggs from them, went to church with them, had known them for a long time.

They were your typical grandmotherly, grandfatherly type of people. Yeah. Probably shared meals together. There wasn't anything that stood out about them. And certainly these people were flabbergasted to find out that. that police thought they were murderers. Because it was in September of 2013 that authorities arrested Alice for the murder of her husband Ronald Holtz back in the 70s in Wyoming.

The very next day, they arrested Gerald for the 1980 Wyoming murders of his wife, Virginia, and her two sons, Richard and Reagan, which Gerald had adopted. Both Gerald and Alice were extradited to Wyoming to face prosecution. But the big question Gibbs really is how and why things got to this point. Initially, police didn't release many of the details at all. They didn't say whether the bodies of Virginia and her two sons had been found. They hadn't. And in fact, they've never been found, which is a point that a lot of people bring up.

Sure. And the police didn't comment about whether or not there was a connection between the murders committed by Alice and Gerald. And I'm not sure if they honestly knew the answer to that at that time. Actually, I can say they probably didn't because I really don't know if they, the police themselves have ever said that these murders were connected. So Gibbs, we have to travel back in time to 1974. You would have been what?

in your mid-20s, probably rocking some hello sweet bell bottom pants, a big wide-collared shirt. I bet you had all the top buttons opened up so that your gold chains sparkled and your glistening chest hair. Yeah. Oh, I got a little carried away with myself there, but. Or I was eight years old. Or you're eight years old.

Either way, this is a true crime story, not a Danielle Steele novel. Sorry about that. In reality, you were eight years old. I was one. So I didn't know what the heck was going on. Yeah, but you were one of those kids that probably won going on 20, man. Just telling everybody how to run, telling your mom how to run that house. Well, I was doing complex math.

I would actually go to the college. I was a janitor at the time. Is that what you? At one. And I would go to the college. And I would wait until everybody left. Did you? And I would see these really complex math problems on the ball.

board and I would finish them and nobody knew who it was. It's amazing. Turned out it was me. How you like those apples? Exactly. So that's where we were at in 1974. Yeah. But Alice in 1974 was 32 years old and she was married to her third husband. A 25 year old man named Ronald Holtz. Alice had five kids over the years. But really central to this story is her youngest. a two-year-old daughter at the time was two years old named Erica from a previous marriage. But Erica lived with them, right? Alice and Ronald in Cheyenne, Wyoming. There were probably other kids that lived with them too.

I was a little hazy on that. Yeah. Right? The five kids came from different marriages. So I'm not sure all five lived with Alice, but I know Erica did. Right. So Alice married Ronald on. September 17th, 1974.

But definitely Gibbs. The marriage could not have been a good one because she filed for divorce in February 1975. Man, quick. That's what? Six, seven months? Really quick. It's not very long.

Five months even. It's like, man, I really, I really don't like you. We made a big mistake. Yeah. But here's the problem. No one had seen Ronald Holtz for some time. In December of 74, he was in a VA hospital and records showed that he was released on December 24th, so day before Christmas. But after that, none of his relatives had seen him.

They hadn't even talked to him after he was released from the VA hospital. So Alice filed for divorce and it was granted because Ronald Holtz was nowhere to be found. he couldn't be served with divorce papers. He couldn't show up to any hearings. So you got your divorce. And I think this is why the timing is so strange in this case. It's why authorities are not really even sure. When exactly Ronald Holtz was killed,

it was either very late 1974 after he got out of the VA hospital or very early in 1975. It's not a big window, right? You're really talking about December 24th, right? To February. But what is known is that Alice shot and killed her husband, Ronald Holtz. She put his body into some type of cardboard barrel, loaded it into her car, and then dumped the barrel in an abandoned mine on a ranch between Cheyenne and Laramie, Wyoming. And this was a place that she was familiar with.

She had been a caretaker at this ranch with, I think, one of her ex-husbands years earlier. And she knew that on the ranch there was this really deep, abandoned mind. She probably thought, hey, if you need to dispose of a body, which I now do, this is a great place to do it. A very deep mine is a, is a heck of a place. And it would have stayed a heck of a place if she had not told a bunch of people about. Yeah. She had to tell other people about it. Yeah.

That's always a problem. If you keep it to yourself, nobody's ever going to find this body. Yeah. You go out telling a bunch of people eventually. Now, when I say eventually, we know it's going to take 39 years, 39 and a half years for authorities to catch up with her, but they do. Court documents show that an affidavit was produced in 1989 by an unidentified witness who said that Alice confessed in either 1975 or 1976 to murdering her husband by shooting him in the back of the head while he slept. So Gibbs definitely authorities had an inkling that this woman had killed her husband

no later than 1989. I'd really be surprised if they didn't at least. suspect her of it back in the 1970s, you know, the spouse is usually looked at first. Sure. But now, you know, when you get to 1989, they have a witness statement. The problem is they couldn't find the body of Ronald Holtz. They didn't know where he was. So at this point, it's only hearsay anyway, right? I mean, it's in an affidavit.

I mean, they're saying, she told me this, but. Yes. I mean, she hasn't told the police that she did it. but they know where the mine is. And they tried a number of times to locate Ronald's body in this abandoned mine shaft, but they ran into some problems. Number one, it was extremely deep. And number two, over the years, a large number of cattle that had died on this ranch,

they threw the cattle into this abandoned mine shaft. That's where they dispose of that as well. Yeah. Yeah. So he's at the bottom. most likely, but how far down? Yeah. And how are you waiting through what would have to have been years and years of bones,

now bones of cattle and other animals? It wasn't until 2013 that they finally found Ronald's remains. They were about 40 feet deep in this mine shaft and they used DNA testing to confirm that it was him. Ronald Skull had a bullet-sized hole in the back of it. Probably not too hard for the medical examiner to figure out how he was killed. And you wonder if she would have shot him anywhere else if they'd be able to do that because it'd be hard. You know, I mean, it's one thing to have the bullet hole going through the skull, but if it goes in through and out the body, what are you going to do?

Yeah, you know, I think you're right. I mean, if you gut shot somebody, you know, you shot them in the stomach and they bled out, would the evidence be there? I don't think it would. I don't think so either. That many years later. Unless maybe it hit the spine or, you know, something like that. But if it just went through but the person bled out, I don't think you'd be able to tell.

Right. Now let's switch to Gerald Udn because for him in 1974, he was married to a woman named Virginia. And Virginia brought two sons into the marriage with Gerald, Richard and Reagan. The kids were young at this time. Richard was probably around five and Reagan was around four in 1974. Eventually, Gerald adopted both boys. But very quickly, after he did, the marriage fell apart and Virginia divorced him. And that's when he got married two hours.

It was in 1980 that Gerald Uden killed his ex-wife, Virginia, and his two adopted boys, who, you know, by that point, Richard was 11 and Reagan was 10 years old. Still little people, man. Oh, there's still little kids for sure. Virginia and the boys were last seen on September 12th, 1980, leaving Virginia's mother's house to go meet Gerald. And there are some differing reports about what was set to take place. I think there are some that they were going to go target shooting.

There are some that said that they were going to hunt. hunt birds, but I think the key is they were going to shoot a gun. Right. That's the key part of this story. And it was known that they were going to go see Gerald. Virginia was driving a 1973 Ford Station wagon that belonged to her mother. The car was later found on October 4th in Fremont County. It was abandoned and it had been vandalized.

It appeared as though someone had tried to push it in. into a canyon to get rid of it, but it got stuck. They could not get it over some rocks. They gave up and they left it there. I was saying when that happens, man. It's rough. Yeah. Then they had to go conceal it with some pine branches, didn't they?

Yeah. So, you know, you got to try to camouflage it. But can you camouflage a car with pine branches? Maybe from the air, maybe for a little while. Eventually, somebody's going to see it. Yeah. It won't last forever. It's not an invisibility cloak.

Unlike this that I'm wearing now. I don't know where you're at in the studio. You never will. But what police did find was a large amount of what turned out to be Virginia's blood inside the car. So I'm pretty sure they knew something bad had happened. They didn't know what, but they knew something bad had happened. All right, Gibbs, let's take a quick break. I want to talk about Sakara.

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And then he threw their bodies down a mine shaft. I wonder where he got that ideal from. Yeah, it's kind of interesting, right? That he's now married to Alice at this point in 1980. He kills his wife and two adopted sons. And the way that he disposes of their body is essentially the same way that Alice had

done six years earlier. It's part of what makes this case so mysterious. is. And, you know, it kind of drives people to speculate the connection. But Gerald went on to say that he went back sometime later, retrieved all three bodies from this mine shaft and he put them in barrels and he dumped them in Fremont Lake. And gives, I don't know how familiar you are with Fremont Lake. It's a pretty good size lake. Yeah. But I think what's especially significant about Fremont Lake, lake is how deep it is. I mean, it's one of the deepest lakes in the United States.

So it makes you wonder why he just didn't take them there right away. Yeah, maybe he needed time to think about it. And he realized at some point that maybe what I did wasn't the best thing. Maybe this would be much better. Because isn't some of that lake like 600 feet deep? Yeah. I think over 600 feet deep in places. And I believe it's the main reason why the bodies of these three people have never been found. Now, according to Gerald, he killed all three of them because Virginia was being difficult. She was playing games with him and she was trying to break up his marriage to Alice. Alice's daughter, Erica, later did an interview with People Magazine where she said, Gerald met her at a truck stop prior to his arrest.

And I didn't mention this, but Erica was a truck driver as well. It was like the whole family, not the whole family, but a lot of them got into the long haul over road, over the road trucking game. But the two of them met at this truck stop and she said he confessed to her about to triple murders that he had committed back in 1980. But the reasons why Gerald committed the murders, right? just told you what he said, right, were the reasons. But what the real reasons were, that would become fodder for a lot of speculation over the years. We'll dive into some of that

a little later in the episode. What I found amazing Gibbs is they did not waste any time. Getting Gerald into court once they got him back to Wyoming. Now, he pleaded guilty to three counts of second degree murder in the deaths of Virginia, Richard, and Reagan. And so that helped, right? It wasn't like he was, they weren't going to have to have some big drawn out trial. Right. They weren't going to let it fodder around. Do you know what that word means?

Fotter. You were just wanting to use it because I just said it. Dear fodder. But it does not mean that. I thought it was like your Boston accent. No, but you're right. They weren't going to fodder around. Yeah.

But what he was forced to do was stand up in court and say that he had shot. All three, Virginia, Richard and Reagan in the head. He testified that while he and Virginia were married, she asked him to adopt the boys and he agreed. And then just six months later, she divorced him. He was upset about that. He felt like she had tricked him because once he adopted the boys, then there was a financial responsibility that didn't quite exist before.

Right. Then he went on to marry. Alice, but Virginia kept trying to drive a wedge between them. So he was upset because he was paying out the ticky, not getting the talkie back. Well, and it's strange because he would say over and over that it wasn't about alimony, it wasn't about child support. He said, oh, we had plenty of money. You know, I didn't kill them because of that.

Now, I think a lot of people would argue. Well, sure. because nobody, nobody wants to pay out a bunch of money every month when you're married to someone else. That's, you know, people take care of their kids. Don't get me wrong. But these weren't his kids. And they weren't his biological children. I'm sure at some point he loved them and he did agree to adopt them. I think he felt duped by Virginia because, okay, six months later you're going to divorce me. After you asked me to adopt the kids. I mean, the ink's not even that dry on those papers.

Yeah. So when he has said that it wasn't about money, I think people don't believe that. I think it's hard to believe that. It is hard to believe that. He went on to say that he invited the boys to go shooting. This was on the day of the murders. Virginia was going to bring them down. She also brought along a 22 caliber rifle.

Now, Gerald denied the fact that he asked Virginia to bring the rifle. But again, I don't think most people believe that because he knew full well. He was going to kill them. What was he going to kill them with? Right. He was going to kill them with the gun that he had asked her to bring. I think that's kind of where his story falls apart a little bit unless he had another gun with him. And I never saw that in any of the research.

So then it would make sense that she brought it with him. Well, she definitely did bring one. The question is, did she bring it on her own or did he ask her to bring it? And why would she just bring it on her own? It doesn't make any sense. He's taking the boys out hunting or target shooting or whatever it is. Yeah. Why wouldn't he bring the gun?

They're only going like five, six miles from his house. Right. It is the whole thing just doesn't make sense. The boys were excited. They wanted to show. shoot the 22 and Gerald said that he told them he wanted to test it first. And he did, but in the worst possible way you could do it. Right. He walked up behind Virginia, shot her in the back of the head. He then quickly shot Richard behind the ear. So obviously he was

behind them. But Reagan took off running because now you've fired two shots. You've killed my mom and brother. I got to get the heck out of here. The problem is he tripped. And he fell into a ditch. So this man walked right over to him as he was kind of face down in this ditch. Before he could get up, he put the gun right behind his right ear and killed him. He said he then hid Virginia's car and disposed of the bodies first in the mine, then later in the lake. And he went into detail about how he stuffed Virginia into a. 55-gallon drum, and then he put each of the boys in a 30-gallon drum.

He sealed them tight and then dumped them into Lake Fremont. So I think for the most part, he was pretty candid about what he had done. I do believe there were some things, mostly the reasons behind what he did that people have problems with. Yeah. Oh, man. Pretty, pretty callous. Very.

Gerald was sentenced to life in prison for the murders. So then we go to Alice Udden. She went on trial in May 2014. Her husband had already been convicted. One of the first things her defense team did was they were able to bar any information related to Gerald Uden's murder and his conviction from being entered into her trial. And I think that's important, right? So the jury would never hear anything about his story, the fact that he had murdered his wife and his two adopted sons.

They would have to decide Alice's fate strictly on the facts related to her case. Well, I mean, for a defense, that would be perfect. Yeah. And honestly, it's probably the way it should be. Yeah. Because some people get clouded. And they will put two and two together and say, okay, well, if he got. convicted, then obviously she must have done something too. You don't want that. You want people to

be convicted on the facts related to their case. Yep, standalone. Two of Alice's children testified against her, her son Todd, who by this point was in his 50s, I think, he got up on the stand and said, quote, she just out of the blue told me how she got up one night, got 822 and shot Ron in the head. I don't know why a mother would tell her children she killed somebody. I wouldn't know that either. Why would you do that? That's a good question. You know? Even if you did do it, why would you tell one of your children that you did? He said that his mother told him another person had helped her dispose of the body. And that was one of the things that I had a problem with when I started the research because everything you read about until you get to

trial is that she stuffed Ron into this cardboard barrel and she loaded him into the trunk by herself. I don't think this was a big woman. I don't, she didn't look that. Now, obviously most of the pictures of her, she's in her seven. Sure. So it's kind of hard to tell. But you figure, you know, even if the guy is on the low end, he would have weighed, what, 150, 160 pounds probably.

So dead weight like that? That would be tough. Yeah. Inside of a barrel. Try to maneuver that in and out. To muscle it into up and over the trunk of a car, I think would be pretty tough. Yeah. You're getting into that Dorothea pointe area.

Oh, man. Of her dragon bodies all around by herself. I don't buy it. There's a mean grandma. Yeah. She's something. Todd also testified that over the years, he had told police this a number of times, right? This wasn't a revelation that all of a sudden he decided to throw out.

at trial. Yeah. He had gone to police over the years and say, hey, my mom killed this Ronald Holtz guy. She told me that she did. And that's why I say, I think they knew for many years that she had something to do with his murder. They just kept trying to find the body and they couldn't do it. Without the body, can't really go after. Well, you can't technically, but it makes it harder. They wouldn't have known how he died, right? They only knew that after finding the skull. Right. Well, they wouldn't been able to confirm it. Todd could have said, mom said that she shot him with the 22, but having the skull confirms his story. Absolutely. It does. But Gibbs, when he was on the stand, he looked over at Alice and he said, I hate you to his mom.

And then as he was done testifying, he was walking away from the stand. He reportedly said to her, I hope it was all worth it. And I guess that caused this big uproar because, you know, you're not supposed to talk on your way to and from the stand. Yeah. And so they had to, I think, strike it from the record and tell the jury to disregard to comments. But obviously, the guy was not a fan.

Sure. Of his mom. he didn't approve of what she had done. One of Alice's older daughters took the stand to say her mother had told her as well that she had shot Ron in the head as he slept. But she did concede that Ronald Holtz was a violent man. Because she had a story where he had once on the side of the road. And I don't know if the car broke down.

I don't know what happened. But he had beat her when she was younger and kicked her. So she was able to tell the jury that, okay, my mom told me that she shot him. Right. But at the same time, this guy was a very violent man. Well, that kind of changes the story a little bit. Well, you can believe that. It's going to come into play when Alice tells her story.

Okay. Because, you know, obviously her story is going to be self-defense. Sure. And I think Alice's defense team's goal was to paint holds as an abusive. person with mental problems, setting up this kind of self-defense. Sure. Defense. They pointed to the fact that Alice and Ron met at the VA hospital.

At the time, Alice was a nurse. And Ron was a psychiatric patient at the VA. Kind of a strange way to meet and fall in love. I think so. But Ron had been a helicopter gunner in Vietnam. I think being in Vietnam in any capacity was not easy. No. For anyone that had to go over there, I don't know what being a helicopter gunner would have done to someone.

I mean, you are firing a lot of rounds into villages, into the enemy, probably knowing full well that you're killing innocence, civilians, maybe sometimes children. It would mess you up. I think it could mess you up very, very badly. But the defense contended that Ronald was killed by Alice in self-defense. So they weren't trying to say she didn't kill him. It was that she had no choice. She was defending herself. And really, it'll come out.

She was defending Erica. Yeah. And that's why I said up front. Erica, you know, I think of all the children was probably the most central to the story. But Alice did take the stance. in her own defense, something we don't often see. And you have what was a very frail looking, 72-year-old grandmother, completely white hair. I think, you know, they used a wheelchair to get her from the defense table to the stand.

So, you know, the jury's seeing all that, right? They take all of this stuff into account. It all plays into your mind. Alice told the jury that, yes, she had shot. Ronald Holtz in the head with a 22, but she did it to protect her two-year-old daughter, Erica. She testified that she was scared one day because Erica had started to cry. And this sent Ronald Holtz into a rage.

Alice said that he started towards her young daughter and screamed, I'm going to kill her. This was her testimony. Okay. She said, I tried to stop him. And he knocked me down. down and ran into Erica's bedroom. I was by the mop closet and I had a gun in there. So I grabbed it. I followed right behind him and shot him in the back of the head. She testified that after he was shot, he kind of slumped over Erica's crib and then slowly kind of fell to the floor. Alice scooped up Erica,

took her to Ronald's parents house and asked them if they could watch her. She has just killed. their son. Right. Now she's going to their house and saying, hey, can you watch Erica? Because she had to get back to the house to clean up and dispose of Ronald's body. Sure she did. Wow. And that's what she told on the stand. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So again, I think with both of them, Alice and Gerald, when they tell their stories, there's a lot of truth in them. But, and especially with Gerald. I think he was very truthful outside of maybe the reason why he killed him, because he was really kind of vague about that. But with Alice, you know, I think hers is some trues peppered in with, you know, some embellishment, some lies, all of that. But obviously,

she took Erica to Ronald's parents' house. That would, that's verifiable. Right. But imagine. And I don't know if they were still alive by the time all this came out. And I doubt they were. Right. They would have probably been in their 90s if they were alive. If you did know that you were watching what really wasn't your biological granddaughter anyway. Right. But you were watching her for the sole purpose so that her mother could go back and clean up the crime scene and dispose of your son. Might make you be pretty disturbing to them. Yeah. I'm sure. I'm sure. I'm not. I'm sure. I don't know. I don't know. I'm it was unless they believe the story I don't think they ever heard the story yeah I can't imagine I think it they because it was so old I doubt they would have been alive I'm saying if

you said if they were sitting there and they knew that yeah that they heard that story if they believed that story which they wouldn't have because it's their son yeah I doubt they would have believed that well that's true that happened that most parents would not believe that that's what their son did yeah so I mean we know that stuff happens it does happen You know. There are a lot of men that are very abusive. Yeah. And there are many women that are in abusive relationships, some trapped and are so scared

that they can't get out. We know that's the case. It happens. And if that man gets shot, then he deserved it. If she thought her life was in danger. Or if she thought her two-year-old daughter's life was in danger. To me, that's even more. of a reason for a woman to kill someone.

And I know we'll get some emails. Well, it can be reverse. Oh, sure, it can be reversed. I'm just saying man or female, if you thought that you're two-year-old, like you just said, Mike, if you thought your two-year-old was in danger, you would do anything you have to to protect that two-year-old. Yeah, I mean, yeah, it can be reversed, but. Majority, I know.

If you look at the percentages. Yeah, the stats show. It's women. Yeah. It's women that are being abused. Men get abused, but the percentage, I don't even think is close. I don't know what it is, but it's disturbing for it. It is.

It's horrible that it happens at all. The problem was Gibbs in the trial, the prosecution had some interview tapes that had been made after Alice had been arrested. This is 2013. And in the tapes, she made some conflicting statements. At one point, she said, She shot Ronald to protect Erica, which is what she said on the stand. Right.

But at another point, she said she shot him while he was sleeping, which is what she told her children later on. Sure. That's a problem because the self-defense theory becomes a little tougher. I think when the jury believes that the man was shot while he was sleeping. And you have to ask yourself, why did she, if she shot him because of Erica, why do you just stick with that story, even back in the day when it happened. Why did you have to tell the kids you shot him why he was sleeping?

I don't know. I mean, that doesn't do well for you to say, I shot him when he was sleeping. Versus I shot him because he tried to do this to your little sister. Yeah. There was some information about the confessions that she made to her kids. Yeah. This was later, years later. Sure.

They were all drunk. She was drinking. They were drinking. So did the truth slip out because of the alcohol? Yeah. I don't know. But you have two kids saying the exact same thing on the stand. It's not good.

And you have her on tape at 71 years old saying the same thing. Yeah. It's not good. No. The prosecution brought on a forensic pathologist who testified that he recovered a small caliber bullet from Ronald Holtz's skull after they found. in the mind shaft. And he said that the bullet entered the skull near his right ear and traveled to the bone behind his left eye. So it went from right to left. He said, okay, that could be consistent

with a shot made while he was lying down. And I think you can picture it if you're laying on your left side. Sure. Pretty easy for somebody to walk up and shoot you behind your right ear. Right. But he had to concede that a person could be standing up and the bullet could make that same trajectory based on where the gun was placed and when the shot was fired. It didn't necessarily mean that he was laying down. Right. Makes more sense if you're laying down. Easier to explain, but still explain it. You still explain it the other way as well.

Yeah, I think you could. The jury deliberated for 13 hours over two days. Gibbs, I think they were conflicted. Not about whether or not Alice killed Ronald Holtz. I think that was pretty much established. But was it cold-blooded murder or was it self-defense? I think that's what they were weighing over those 13 hours. Eventually, they acquitted Alice on the first-degree murder charge.

And instead, they convicted her of second-degree murder in the death of Ronald Holtz. they actually could have gone manslaughter, which would have been an even lesser charge, but it's like they almost picked in the middle. They said, let's split this down here. Yep. This is where we're going to go.

They went with second degree murder, but she still ended up getting a life sentence. And really, to be honest with you, it really wouldn't have mattered what she got. No. She was 70 some years old at the time that the trial happened. I mean, you're exactly right at that point.

Why? Why really argue too much? around the time frame. Yeah, if you get 25, 30 years or life, you're probably going to die in prison either way. Now, much different if she was charged when she was 32 years old, right? Now, that's a life sentence. Sure. That's a long time.

Yeah. And I think about the fact that, you know, she really got away with this for almost 40 years and lived a pretty full life, not having to pay for what she did. Now, it caught up with her. Right. But not until she was 70-some years old. Yeah. If she didn't do this in self-defense, man, she got a free ticket for a long time and shouldn't have.

It's not fair. The judge called Alice's crime a cold calculated murder. He said the jury heard all the evidence that was before the court and they rejected the defense that it was self-defense. There you go. What else can he say? I mean, they heard it all. Now, if he did.

didn't think it was cold-blooded murder, would he come out and say it? Or would he just say the jury found her guilty? Right. To me, by saying that, it's almost like he agrees. Yeah, he's like, hey, and I'm condemning you for it. Yeah. I want to make sure everybody understands. She's not this victim that she's pretending to be. Alice Uden died on June 12th, 2019. So just last year from when we're doing this episode. She had suffered from a number of chronic health issues. She was taken to the hospital. She went into renal failure and died. And we talked about the fact that some of Alice's children testified against her at her trial. I think they abandoned her. I don't think they wanted anything to do with her. I don't know that for a fact, but I can't imagine Todd was going to visit

his mother after saying what he said on the stand. I wouldn't think so. But from everything I read Erica stuck by her to the very end. You know, she has been quoted in a number of papers as saying that she truly believes her mother saved her life by killing Ronald Holtz. So regardless of the outcome of the trial or what her siblings have said over the years, she never really seemed to waver. She thought it was self-defense and she thought her mom did a good thing and it saved her life. Well, that's her right.

To think that way. Yeah. I think there are a lot of sad things about this case. So we know four people lost their lives. Two of them were small children. You pointed that out. The children of Alice Udden, they discovered some pretty horrible things about their mother. And one thing that I thought was really sad gives, I read where Virginia Uton's mother passed away at the age of 92.

right before all of this came out. Wow. So she lived all that time up to the age of 92, never knowing for sure exactly what happened to her daughter and her two grandchildren. So close. Yeah, I mean, I think in a case like this, nobody wins. There can be no winner, right? Everybody loses. But you have to give kudos to the police.

They never stopped, man. No, they never gave up. I think there are some people that look at it and say, man, why did it take so long? Yeah. You knew in 1989 where this guy was buried. Why did it then take you 24 years to actually dig deep enough to find him? Yeah. Why was it not more of a priority?

Yeah. There are a lot of people that have questioned that. But they didn't give up. They eventually found him. But she got 24 more years. And so did Gerald. Sure. living their life, doing their thing.

Living all that 60 acres. So you have four individuals killed in Wyoming. The murders happen six years apart. And the only connection is Gerald and Alice Udn. And like I said, I think the police were suspicious about what Alice's role was or may have been in the later murders. Right. But they could never definitively establish a.

connection, that she had anything to do with Gerald's murders. And for his part, Gerald maintained over the years that she did not have anything to do with the murders. It was him. It was him alone. And he had acted on his own. But after she died, after Alice died, Gerald changed his story. And he had been corresponding with this guy named Ron Frances.

and Ron ended up writing a book on the case, but it was during one of these letters that Gerald said, it was Alice who wanted Virginia, Richard, and Reagan dead. She didn't want them to keep having to pay money every month to Gerald's ex-wife and have to pay for these kids that technically were not his biologically. Even though they had plenty of money, according to him.

According to him. And he went, even further, saying not only was it her idea, she was the one who killed them. He didn't even kill them. Alice did. He just took the rap for it to protect her. But now that she was dead, he didn't feel like he needed to do that anymore. In his letter, he wrote, I am now free to seek total exoneration, which I intend to do. And I don't have to feel guilty about it. I don't know if the courts will hear my case since there was a plea agreement, but if I don't try, I will end up dying here. Well, so now he's just saying when he has to try to get out of prison.

Well, that's definitely what Alice's daughter, Erica, has said. She was extremely upset after this came out. And she wasn't shy. In telling the media about it, she was quoted in the Casper Star Tribune as saying Gerald's letter was an attempt to seek freedom in a cowardly and despicable manner. He could have told authorities about his allegations at any time. Sure, he could have. He was only doing it then to try to get out of prison. She said, let us not forget the victims that have been deeply affected by this. Gerald Uden is where he is supposed to be.

It's kind of hard to argue with any of that. Sure. Now, is it possible that, Alice killed him and he took the rap? Sure, anything's possible. Is it possible that he was so chivalrous that he had to wait until his wife died? I'm not going to say a word until she passes. Before he sullied her name. Yeah. Maybe, but why is it okay to sully it after she was dead? I didn't get that part. It really does seem on the surface as though he just didn't, he wanted to wait until she couldn't dispute what he was saying. And now it's like, man, I got to get out of this prison. Yeah, I can't do this no more, man. I'm too old for this place. And if this is a way that's going to get me out, I'll say she killed him.

Yeah. But I'll tell her sorry when I see her later. There's just so many interesting parts to this case that, you know, from two individuals getting away with murder for as long as they did, them getting married. Right. And having this other life in another state. I just wonder Gibbs at what point, if ever, do you think we're in the clear? It's been a long time, and the police have not shown up at our door.

I don't know if they are sitting out in those rocking chairs going, hey, I know you said, you went back and got the bodies, put them in the barrel. And he's like, yeah, did you go back and take care of yours? She's like, I'm not worried about it. It's okay. They're never find it. It's super deep. It's super deep.

You know, and then I, you wonder if the day the police roll in, man, they're sitting on those chairs. Do you think they just look at each other and go, yep, they got us, don't they? Yeah, I think that's exactly what they did. Yeah. But I still wonder, does it ever really go away? That kind of nagging, feeling that at any point, they could figure this out and find out what I've done. Because I don't have that, right? I don't have anything in my past that I'm worried about somebody finding out that I killed somebody.

But if I did, I can't imagine it would be a good feeling to constantly be thinking about that unless you're a person that just doesn't give a shit and then it doesn't bother you at all. I think there's some people out there. I think there's a lot of people. Yeah, you know, if it catches up to me, catches up to me. I'm not worried about it. I feel pretty good. It's been a long time since they got me.

But that's it. That is the case of Gerald and Alex. Uden. Gibbs, we've got some voicemails. You want to check those out? Let's hear those. Hi, guys. Angie Christie here.

New listener. Just discovered you guys yesterday. And I am on episode, oh, gosh, I don't know the number. I think I'm on 164, Ed Amos. Although I started at the beginning. And I'm working my way backward. And it's fun getting to know you guys, really enjoying it. I wanted to ask if you had ever heard about the case of Brooke Bennett from Vermont.

She was raped and murdered by her uncle. And it was a pretty horrific story that really ripped headlines in Vermont and changed some policies and was like our first ever major Amber Alert. I would love to hear your take on it. I am Team Givie. I love his terrible, terrible accents. They crack me up every time. And I always love whenever you have to jump in and correct him or explain his thoughts. I just love your chemistry.

It's so fun. So thanks for the entertainment. and stay safe and keep your own time taken. Awesome. Love it. So when I first heard that, I thought she was saying that she'd listened to 164 episodes in one day. That's what I thought as well. I was trying to do the calculation.

And it did not work out. Are you going French on me? Are you going Pepe Lepew on me? Maybe. And then I was like, okay, I get it now. She started with the new ones and she's working backwards. words, if somebody, physically I don't think you could listen to 164 in a day, but there's just not enough time in the day.

No. But that's what I thought. Yeah. I'm glad she's listening, though. Thank you. Hi, Mike and Gibby. This is Michelle Willie calling from Burlington, Connecticut. I'm making progress.

I'm in the 130s now. I just listened to the Cheshire murder case, which was very hard to get through because that's about a half an hour from where I live. So obviously that was huge news around here. sometimes just going around the areas around us. We'll walk and see Dr. Pettett with his new family, but you guys did an awesome job covering it. So thanks for that.

Keep up the great work and keep your own time ticking. Bye. That was one of those cases that was very hard to get through because it was brutal. It was a tough one, man. It really was to think about, you know, what those victims went through. And then, you know, this guy survives and has to go on with his life. And I mean, I'm glad. he is, but it had to be very, very hard.

And I'm sure it still is. Oh. It's not like you don't forget that. Yeah, you stop thinking about your wife and children, even when you have a new family or a new wife or whatever. Hi, Mike. Hi, I'm I, hi, Givie. This is Caitlin from Oregon.

I just wanted to call and let you guys know that you guys are getting me through the COVID-19 shelter in place out here in Oregon. I am currently listening to both podcasts again for the fourth time, start to finish. So you guys are helping keep me sane. And I am calling for a suggestion. The Nancy Eagleson murder that happened in Paulding, I think that's how you say, Paulding, Ohio. I just learned about it.

I don't know much about it, but it would be kind of a cool. Malina, it's not cool because she died horribly. But it would be kind of interesting to hear your take on it. And I am totally team Fergie. Yeah, give you're nice, and you're funny, but I'm totally team purgy. Anyway, I hope you guys are both safe and have a great day. All right. Love it.

Love it. I know Oregon's been hit really hard. Oregon, Washington. She probably doesn't like me because I say Oregon. Probably. That's why. Because it's not, it's incorrect. It literally is incorrect, as is Illinois.

You know, when they make up words, there's a way to say it. Yeah. Now, also, when they make up city names, there's a way to say them. We just don't know what they are. That's true. But you know how to say Oregon and Illinois. You just refuse to say them correctly. I wonder back when we do the episode in Paulding, Ohio.

I don't even know where Paulding, Ohio is. It's right over there. Right over there. You just nodded your head to the right. That's what I do, man. Boom. It's right over there. It's on the other side of your basement.

Hey, Mike and Gidey. It's Adrian. I just recently started following your podcast. My fiance, Liz, actually got me involved. I'm into a lot of different true crime scenarios. I've never really been into podcasts. It's my first time. but I am from San Diego,

well, a area outside of San Diego, about 30 minutes. And I am a driver. I drive all the way up to L.A. and back. And I really appreciate your guys' podcast that keeps me entertained while I'm driving.

And yeah, thank you. I appreciate it. And keep your own time ticking. All right. We appreciate you. We also appreciate Liz. We do.

For setting things in motion. So thank you to both of you. All right, buddy. We had no mail back. No mail? This week. And it's probably a good thing because with everything that's going on, your wife would have put it in quarantine. Yeah.

And we have not been ordering Amazon. Yeah. We've tried not to order anything just because I don't know. You wouldn't even wear a pizza anymore, man. No, I've done some grubhub, though. Have you? Which I don't know how safe that is. So you're okay with that.

With everybody in the kitchen touching everything, the grab hub person touching it and handing it. Well, there for a while, we had trouble getting food. Oh, that's true. You know, we would go to Kroger and there was nothing. And then they were rationing things at our local Kroger, which might be okay, you know, if you're single. Yeah. But when you got four or five people that you're trying to feed a bunch of meals a day because everybody's home, that rationing, it's kind of tough. So we were ordering out a little bit there.

Two stakes for you don't go very far. Two stakes for me? I'm all right. I got to have a steak a day or I get cranky. Yeah. All right. So no mail bag. That's it.

That's it for another episode of true crime all the time. Everybody stay safe. Absolutely. Can't say it enough. We will do everything in our power to continue to put out episodes for you. Hopefully it helps. Yeah. Hopefully it's a distraction and it helps you in some little way.

But we'll be back next week. We will be. With an all new episode of something. Of something called true crime all the time. So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.