True Crime All The Time - Gilbert Cannon

Episode Date: June 14, 2021

On June 22nd, 1991, 40-year-old Charles Holden left work and stopped by a Hardee's restaurant. A stranger came up to his window asking for a ride and Charles agreed to give him one. But, just a few miles down the road Charles changed his mind and a fight ensued. He was able to get away in his truck. But, when he got home he found this man lurking around his house. And, hours later with police on the scene, he found his mother, Dorothy Donovan, murdered in her house next door.Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss murderer Gibert Cannon and a case that is so bizarre, it's hard to believe it happened how it did. The police didn't believe the story Charles told them about the mysterious stranger and they firmly believed that he killed his own mother. It took 14 years and a series of fortunate events to find the real killer and clear Charles in the murder.You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 237 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime. Mike Gibson. How are you? Hey man. I'm doing good. How about you? I'm doing well.

Good. I'm doing well. I think you and I are both doing much better. Oh, yeah. Then we have the past couple weeks. I think most people know, but we'll throw it out there. I mean, you were in the hospital last week. I was for about four days.

Yeah. And the week before that. And you were in the hospital the week before that. But because of that, you missed CrimeCon. I did. And, you know, I hated that. There was a lot of people that really missed you because they were one to see. Everybody wants to see Gibby.

I missed them too. But my wife and I went. We had a good time. Yeah. We kind of used it as an extended 25th anniversary kind of trip. Good. It was needed. But we got to meet a lot of good people and some great fans and all of that.

It was much different than previous years. I'll say that. Sure. Much smaller. They had to, you know, keep the numbers down. Right. And everything. But we still had a really good time.

I think they're going big next year. Well, Vegas, I think it's going to be huge. Yeah. I really think it is. And I'm looking forward to it. Yeah, same here. Gibbs, let's give our shoutouts. Let's do it.

We had Jerry Deanne Shields. Hey, Jerry. Randy. What's going on, Randy? Tiffany Hunt. We appreciate that, Tiffany. Karen Minert. Hey, Minert.

Kristen Vieti. Ooh, Viette. Lula Blue jumped out of our highest. level. What's going on, Lulu? Jasmine Salisbury. Jasmine. Jorney Buffington. What's going on, Buffington?

Char Mills jumped out at our highest level. Hey, Shar. Stacey Thomas. Hey, I appreciate that, Stacy. Lori Hare. Hey, Lori. Leah Boss. What's up, boss?

Jenny R. Hey, Jenny. Amanda C. Well, appreciate that, Amanda. Tilly Ashby. Hey, Tilly. Sarah Meeks. What's going on, Meeks?

Alisa Pardom. Pardom. Adrian and Anderson. Hey, Adrian. Yo, Adrian. Yeah. Marin Mother's Head. What's going on, Mother's Head? Ashley Alvis. Hey, Alvis.

Jen Haynes Noblet. Noble. And last but not least, Destiny Strikes. It does sometimes. Which is a very cool name. Yeah. If that's somebody's real name, that is kick-ass. It is. I like it. Let's go back into the Vault Gibbs.

This week, we selected Tessa Alderton. Hey, Tessa. So we appreciate the new support, the continued support on Patreon. We had some great PayPal donations as well from Sean Sudeth. What's going on, Sudith? Gothic, babe. Hey, gothic, babe. Kelly Gilstrap.

What's going on, Gilstrap? Jack T. Hey, Jack. And Susan Beck. Appreciate that, Susan. So thanks to all of you as well. Speaking of Patreon, Gibbs, we had a merch winner for May. And that was Jennifer Vaughn.

Hey, congratulations, Jennifer. Yep, exactly. I also wanted to mention to everybody. we have some new merch. We do. Out on our website. Posted notes, chapstick, lanyards.

Yeah. You can put like your work badge on. It's fancy. Yeah. Some of those little silicone wristbands. They say true crime all the time. And on the other side, they say, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.

So is it the new chapstick and also the used chapstick? Yeah. We have new and used. Yeah. Now, if you want it used by Ghibi, that's going to be a premium. It is a premium. you charge extra for that an extra quarter but we got some cool stuff out there we do you know make sure you check it out Gibbs right now on unsolved we have an episode out on the mysterious

disappearance and reappearance of jim macdonald it's interesting this is an an interesting episode because there's no murder no there really is no quote unquote crime per se you know depending on how you want to look at it. This is a case where you really kind of have to soak up all the facts and there are some people who are going to think it went down one way. Right. And others that think it went down a different way. Definitely scratch your head a little bit.

Yeah. I think it'll be different and like we said, interesting for the audience. All right, buddy, are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time? I am. We are headed to the state of Delaware. to talk about murderer Gilbert Cannon. And I'll say this. This is a little bit of a different type of episode for us as well.

And we start off our story talking about a guy named Charles Holden. And this is a man who decided Gibbs to show some kindness to a stranger, give him a ride. He had no idea that he was giving a ride to a murderer. because Gilbert Cannon was high on cocaine. He was looking for a place to stay that night. Things went bad during this kind of ride. He was given. We'll talk about that. When it was over, he started walking the neighborhood looking for a place to crash. Right. And he ended up breaking into the home of a woman named Dorothy Donovan, who happened to be the mother of Charles Holden.

and he brutally murdered her. Now, Gilbert disappeared. And basically, you know, Charles was left to say, hey, this man killed my mother, but police didn't believe him. So you kind of have like a fugitive type situation. It's not quite the one-armed man, but it's similar. Sure. Yeah.

This is, this figment of your imagination guy. Who is this guy? Right. Nobody knows anything about this guy. We didn't see him. Right. We don't know who he is. All we have is you telling us that all of this happened.

And really, it took a pretty fortunate series of events to figure out who the real killer was and lift suspicion off Charles that he murdered his mother. It was on June 22nd, 1991, that 40-year-old Charles Holden left work after finishing his 4 to 11 shift at a local factory. So a second shift, right? It's a pretty normal second shift around here. Yeah, it is. Close to midnight, Charles stopped at Hardee's and he ordered a hamburger and a coffee. That might seem strange to most people at 11 o'clock to get coffee. But for those of you that have worked second shift and even especially third shift, it kind of plays with you a little bit, at least for me it did when I, back in the day when I did that. Got to get your coffee in, huh? Well, it's just, you know, it's such a different schedule. Now, if you're used to, it and you do it all the time. I get it. I was on like this rotating schedule. So I would work, you know, a couple of weeks mornings. Right. A couple of weeks second shift and then a few weeks third shift. I couldn't get the hang of it. I was all over the place. Couldn't figure out when I was supposed to sleep. It messed me up. I always liked working third shift when I did back in the day. Yeah. I didn't mind third shift. I don't think I would have minded it if I had been on it longer. Right. Steady.

But to rotate like that, it really messed me up. And I'm not a coffee drinker. Well, you know, I am. Oh, you're night and day between me and you there. So this Hardy's restaurant, it was just half a mile from his house on 384 Kent Street. Charles lived in his own trailer, but he lived next door to his mother who lived in an old farmhouse. Together, they had 160 acres of land just outside of. Harrington, Delaware. Nice little spread. That's quite a bit of land. Dorothy Donovan was often alone

while Charles was at work. And again, I mentioned it. He worked nights. So Charles got his food, got into his truck. As he was about to leave the Hardee's, a man came up to his window and asked for a ride. The man told Charles that his sister was having a baby and he needed a ride to George town hospital. Now, at first, Charles said no, telling the man, hey, guy, it's late. I just got off of work. And I'm just a few minutes away from my house. But something changed his mind, right? He deliberated on it. And he later said that he decided that he wanted to be kind to this guy because he felt like he really needed help. So Charles changed his mind. And he agreed to drive the. man to the hospital. Now, Harrington's a small town. Everyone there's friendly. Everyone knows each other.

And, you know, Charles has said he thought it was a harmless situation. Just trying to give a guy right to the hospital. Right. Yeah. Now, would you do that? No. And you know for a fact I wouldn't do that. And does that make us bad people? Maybe. In some small way, maybe. I don't like taking chances with my safety. I've talked about it a number of times. Now, if it was you and you called me on the phone and said, hey, my car is broken down, right. I'm on my way. Yeah. Or any of my friends or family or, you know, even extended co, you know, co-workers or people that I know, fine. I'll do whatever you need me to do. A stranger knocking on my window. No. I should have known that. See, I could have called you both those times. I had to go to the ER instead of driving myself.

Yeah, I thought that was, I told you that when it happened. You should not be driving yourself to the ER in the condition you're in. Now, I didn't know about it until after the fact. Of course. Or I would have been up there. But, you know, to me, the stranger at 11 p.m. midnight kind of approaching you, that is a situation that I'm going to extricate myself from. It's just plain and simple. And people can think whatever they want to about me because of that.

Right. Some people will think, well, oh, you should help people. And I get that way of thinking. If you want to do that, pour it on. Sure. Me, I'm a much more defensive, minded type safety conscious person. I just am. We've covered too many cases.

Yeah. Where we know where this goes. And you know I was before. But doing the podcast for, you know, almost five years. I think has made me even more so, more protective of my family, more protective of certain situations. Now, initially, Charles told the man that he would drive him to the hospital. But about three miles down the road, he stopped at the intersection where he normally turned to go home. And he told the man that that was the end of the ride.

He couldn't take him any further. So he changed his mind about that as well. And it really kind of happened very quickly. This stranger got extremely angry, tried to attack Charles, demanded his money, demanded his truck. Charles managed to grab his keys and jump out of the truck. And he ran to a nearby store to ask for help. But this guy Gibbs was chasing him with the screwdriver. Yeah.

Charles's own screwdriver that he got from the truck. Right. threatening to kill him. So obviously this is a situation that went from zero to 60 in three miles basically. The minute that he said, this is the end of the ride, all hell broke loose. Charles feared for his life. So he agreed to take the man to the hospital. He got back in the truck.

But as the man walked around to get into the passenger seat, Charles sped off. Good move. It is a good move. Now, it's going to turn out to be strange as we move along in this story. But if you think about it in theory, it's a great move. Somebody's threatening you. You act like you're going to placate them, but with a plan knowing that you're going to get in the car first, you're going to stomp on that gas and get away before they even get

a chance to get back in the truck. And from what I understand Gibbs, this makes. this man literally tried to keep up with him, like chase the truck down. Like he's the bionic, bionic? Or bionic. Yeah, man. Steve Austin, I'm going to catch you. Again, you know, it's so strange because you would think back when the bionic man was on,

it was free television. Sure. So you would have gotten the same programs that I got. I still think you got some kind of generic version. I probably did. And you didn't even have to pay for it. bionic man. The bionic man. He wasn't quite as good. No. As the bionic man. He wasn't the $10 million man or whatever. He was the $10,000 man. Was it the $5 million man? I don't know. I don't remember

that he was the $1,000 man. He was a dis-discount version. He could do a few things, but not real well. He was the first try at it. And they're like, you know, it kind of worked, but not all the way through. So, yeah. So there were witnesses that saw the man at the restaurant, one witness saw the fight that occurred at the intersection. I mean, you have to think, Gibbs, Charles is shaken up. I think anybody in this situation is going to be shaken up. And what he decided to do was not drive towards his house, right? Drive away from his house because he didn't want this guy to follow him.

Sure. Which is actually smart as well. It is. In any situation where you think someone is following you, well, don't go straight home. No. you know, drive through other neighborhoods, lose them, make it hard for them to kind of keep up with you. I'm sure that was part of it. I'm sure he was also shaken up and probably just needed some time to calm down, right? I'm going to take a little drive. Plus he's got to be a little pissed.

His Hardy's hamburger was cold. Yeah, probably spilled his coffee during the fight. Yeah. Now he's got nothing. But at a certain point, he felt ready to go home. And as he approached his trailer, he saw something, which had to be horrifying. He saw this same stranger kind of lurking around in his front yard peering into his windows. And this guy ran off when he saw the headlights of Charles's truck. So that scared him again, right? Charles. He drove off, left his trailer because he's like, this guy's here. You know, I got to get out. He went back to Hardee's to use the pay phone to call the police. So he called 911 at 1.19 a.m. to report a.m. at his residence while he waited for police because he didn't go back to his house. He was

waiting for police to meet him there so that he would feel safe. Sure. But while he was waiting, he called his mother. Because remember, she lives right next door. Right. He wanted to warn her that someone was on the property. She never answered any of his calls. In, that's probably where I differ a little bit. I know exactly where you're heading. Yeah, I would have went right there. I made sure my mom was safe,

grabbed her, got her out of there. Yeah, I think, you know, and again, it's hard to second guess, Monday morning,

quarterback, what people do in certain situations. But I think I'm with you. Now, I might leave. I might, you know, call the police,

but when I call my mom and she doesn't answer, then I'm in the truck and I'm headed back. and whatever happens happens. I got to check on my mom. But he decided not to do that. He decided to wait for police.

The problem is police didn't get to the hearties until 3 a.m. This was almost two hours, Gibbs, after he called. And I don't think it's any rush to judgment to say that they didn't really take his call all that seriously. Yeah, when you say there's a prowler outside and maybe that he ran. off. Maybe they're not going to rush right over. Yeah. What else is going on?

Right. We don't know what else is going on that night, but I'm thinking 911 in a small town, how much really was probably going on? It just seems like they made it a very low priority call. Yeah. And if you're waiting for a state trooper because you don't really have the local law enforcement, then, you know, how far are they away? That's true. That's true. Probably takes a little bit longer. So state trooper Merna Kinney showed up and she accompanied Charles back to his trailer, right, to check things out. They did check his trailer out. It was in perfect order.

There was nothing out of place. No signs of forced entry. Nothing taken. And then Charles asked Officer Kenny to take a look at his mother's house just to check on her. They walked over and pretty quickly saw that one of the back windows was broken. and there was blood on some of the shards of glass. Okay. Now your spidey sense is tingling, right?

I think the hairs on the back of your neck are standing up at this point because I'm not feeling good. Right. For sure they are. I don't know what I'm going to find when we get inside of my mom's house. So they got in. They called his mother's name, no answer. And that was strange. because, you know, one of the things that Charles said was his mom, Dorothy, normally stayed up until he got home from work because she worried about him. And she said she couldn't go to sleep until he was home. And she knew he was home. So he knew if his mom wasn't answering something terrible had happened. Yeah, there's a big problem here. And I think a lot of parents are like that. Now, this is much later in life, right? He's 40 years old. But, but.

But does it ever really leave if you're that close together? I mean, you know, I know with my kids, I can't go to sleep until I know both of them are in the house. So I mean, I stay up pretty late anyway. But, you know, if my oldest is out till one, I'm not going to bed at 1230. You know, I'm waiting for her to get home. I like everybody to be in the house before I go to bed. I just feel better.

Well, that's because you hit that one little button that locks everything down. Yep. Yeah. Yeah, just like in, what's that movie, The Purge? I have like the purge system. Oh, yeah. Just literally steel. It is kind of like that.

Steel comes down and it's pretty secure. It really is. I know I can't get in. Or out sometimes. Yeah, well, that's the other problem. Yeah. The state trooper and Charles walked upstairs and they found his mother, Dorothy Donovan, dead, stabbed the death in her own bet.

Gibbs, she'd been stabbed in the chest, arms, and face a total of 24 times. And that's a lot of stab wounds. Yeah, it really is. And it had to have been a brutal scene. You and I talk about a lot of brutal scenes. But I think as a son to walk in on your mother and see a scene like that, that's got to be, it's just heartbreaking.

Yeah. To walk in on a loved one, any loved one that has been murdered in that way. Dorothy's time of death was estimated. at around 1 a.m. on June 23rd. Like I said, it gives horrific crime scene very bloody. Blood was spattered all over Dorothy's bed and the walls of her bedroom. And I think when there are 24 stab wounds, it is going to be everywhere. Oh, of course.

Sometimes in the movies, you don't see that. You don't see the spurting. but when Dexter recreates it or something like that and you have the white sheets right and the fake blood you kind of get an idea when they try to recreate some of these crime scenes or when you see the photos of real crime scenes right you know some of these are they're just extremely bloody because you're bound to hit an artery or and then you're just you're talking about a lot of bloods spurting everywhere. And I think that one of the first thoughts that investigators had was this was overkill, you know, for some type of a random home invasion slash robbery gone wrong.

And you and I talk about that quite a bit, right? Overkill, rage, different things. Why do you need to stab someone 24 times? Exactly. You know, you've already killed them probably a couple of stabs into it. Why do you keep going? Yeah, at a certain number in, they're dead. But the stabbing continues. Now, a lot of times I know you talk about the rage involved in, in some stabbings. And there is. There's no doubt.

So because of all of that, you know, the thought was by investigators, whoever did this probably knew Dorothy, right? They were angry with her. There was a reason for the number of stab wounds. And it was because she had wronged them or, you know, they had animosity or they were holding animosity against her. They also thought that the perpetrator was most likely on drugs at the time,

which may have influenced the violent nature of the crime. So then Charles started talking to investigators about the man, right, that he had seen walking around outside and reportedly Gibbs, he told them he couldn't believe the man killed his mother. So he made that connection right away. Sure he did. Man outside my trailer. I'd just gotten an altercation with him previously.

Right. He didn't find me at home. He went next door and he killed my mother. I think Charles made that connection pretty quickly. He insisted to police that the man killed his mother for revenge for what happened between the two of them. Now, you have to think about this from the standpoint of the police, Gibbs. What are they thinking when they hear this story?

Strange man. Right. You let him out at the intersection. How did he even know where you lived? Exactly. That's exactly what they had to have been thinking. And so to them, Charles's story didn't add up for that fact alone. Right.

Okay. I can see you giving someone a ride. I can see you letting them out. They get angry. You get into an altercation. But you're telling me that this person that you don't know, somehow magically finds your house and ends up next door and kills your mother. Yeah. I get it. That's kind of a hard. It is a hard sell. Hard sell, a hard story to swallow.

Yeah. Hard pill to swallow. I mean, when the police are estimating her death at 1 o'clock and he's calling them at 119 from the Hardy's pay phone, 19 minutes after the estimated time of death, that doesn't look good. It doesn't look good from a timing standpoint. because the hearties, I don't think, was all that far away. So I'm sure police could make the inference that he could have had time. Now, he would have had to do it quickly. He could have had time to come home, kill his mother, clean himself up a little bit. So he didn't have blood all over him because obviously he didn't.

Right. And then go to the pay phone, tell the story about the man. But basically all of it made Charles the number of. one suspect right from the start, right? I think police zeroed in on him. They normally look very hard at close family anyway. We know that. Dorothy Donovan was murdered at the age of 70. Inside the safety of her home, her family was devastated. Dorothy was born on May 18th, 1921 in Maryland. She had three children, Charles, Brenda, and Diana. She was a widow. And she was a widow. And she, lived all alone in the farmhouse, her first husband Wallace Holden died in 1958.

Her second husband, Ralph Donovan, died in 1987. Dorothy was loving. She was deeply religious. She was a homemaker, a member of the Harrington Senior Center, and the Church of God. She liked to keep busy with gardening, babysitting her grandkids, Bible study, and visiting the local senior center. Gibbs, this was a very sweet woman who didn't have a single enemy in the world. It sounded like the perfect grandma.

Yeah. Yeah. She sounds like probably most of our grandmalls. But I think the key here for me is she didn't have any enemies. So, you know, who did Dorothy Donovan make so mad, so angry that they broke in and stabbed her 24 times? Well, police didn't have anyone. right because she wasn't that type of person so again it leads back to charles as being the most

likely suspect dorothy had gone to the hospital on june 21st for an appointment when her daughters dropped her off she complained that she had been hearing noises in her house and according to the news journal she told her daughter brenda i'm afraid something strange is going to happen here something bad's going to happen to me okay that's real prophetic i mean it turns out to be because obviously something really bad did happen to her but i think if somebody says that to you i mean what do you think do you take it seriously do you think you do you blow it off yeah i think it probably just depends on the circumstance on that individual but uh yeah i think at minimum you kind of go through the house and just check things out and be like, you know, hey, mom, I don't see anything.

I don't, you know, maybe it's just the wind blowing up against it. I don't know. Yeah. I mean, there are a lot of things in houses that can make strange noises. At 3 p.m. on June 22nd, Charles visited his mother before he went to work. Dorothy always packed his lunch and gave it to him before he left. That's pretty cool. It depends on how you look at it, but You're 40 years old and your mom still makes your lunch. Still putting that little lunch pal. Maybe a little note inside. Yeah.

It says, hey, do great at work. Have a good day at work, honey. Yeah. I mean, it's really cool on her part. And I'm sure it's something she wanted to do. It probably made her feel really good. I just don't know if I'd want to keep taking that Andy Griffith lunch pail to work every day with Andy Griffith on the outside.

Yeah. Mayberry. I had the Fonds. Did you have the Fonds? Yeah. Back in the day. And I remember, you know, almost half of the those were taken up by the, the big soup container.

Yeah, they were. And I never had any soup. Yeah. My mom wasn't big on soup. So I usually just left that at home and tried to make more room. Everything just kind of rolled around. It did. Your banana was smushed.

Your sandwich was smushed. But that was that was kind of a status symbol when you were a kid. Yeah. What lunchbox did you have? And it said a lot about you. Yeah. I just had a brown paper bag. Right.

That said a lot about you. It did. you had the bionic man lunchbox and that said even more about you sure did it's like hmm they didn't even get that at kmart they got it somewhere else they got that at uh jmart j mart j mark that's right which is where you shopped same place i got my husky jeans but here's the thing charles could tell that something was a little bit off with his mom that day she wasn't in the best mood when she gave him his lunch she didn't really even say much to him and that wasn't like her. At 6.30 p.m. Dorothy's daughter, Diana, visited her. Dorothy complained that she didn't feel well. She thought she was getting a cold.

She called Diana at 9.30 and said she was going to miss church because she didn't feel well. And that was the last time anyone heard from her. It was like a premonition. It's kind of what it seems like, right? She told one of her daughters, hey, something bad is going to happen to me in my house. That is almost like a premonition. It was scary. As the police searched the crime scene, they found blood on the living room light switch. They also found a bloody palm print on an upstairs banister.

They took swabs of the blood, put it into evidence. The way that Dorothy's body was arranged on the bed, it appeared as though she had been sexually assaulted, but the medical examiner found, no evidence of that. And I think that fact made the police believe that the entire scene was staged. So when you talk about staging, well, is a random stranger really going to stage a crime scene? I think most likely not.

There's really no reason for it. Would a family member stage the crime scene to make it appear as though maybe it was something different than what it was? Maybe. Possible. I think that's what the police thought, even, you know, kind of heaping even more suspicion on to Charles. And then on top of that, there were no items stolen from the house. So you can take out robbery as a motive.

The medical examiner never determined the exact murder weapon, only that it was some type of instrument, either a screwdriver or a knife or something like that. And again, you know, Dorothy's children and. assisted she had no enemies. And really all of this, again, just kind of led back to Charles. No motive that they are aware of. Possible staging. He was there. Yeah, I mean, he has to be the prime suspect at this point. And he was. There's no doubt about it. Not just prime, but really the lone suspect. Because I don't think they believed his story about this man. So, they're kind of looking at him and really only him.

Police brought him in for an interview and he told the story of everything that happened that night. When he finished up, one of the investigators told him, so you're telling us about a black male who assaulted you at the intersection and then minutes later murdered your mother. That's what you're trying to get us to believe. And basically they told him it wasn't logical. it didn't make sense. And they said they didn't even believe it was physically possible.

So they didn't believe him, Gibbs at all. No. They felt like he was lying. Yeah. Making all of this up. Again, I keep going back to the fugitive because it's a, it's kind of a similar story, right?

The one-armed man. Well, police didn't believe there was a one-armed man. Well, and I think they tried to time it out too, like, where you say the altercation took place if that guy that you said did this left from this location to get to your mom's house it would take X amount of time. Yeah, he would have had to walk about a half mile, turned down her street, their street, and putting that all together, how could a stranger

do that? They just weren't buying it. So they were interrogating Charles. They kept telling him that you're lying. You're not telling the truth. But Charles didn't waver. He insisted that he was. The problem that Charles had was that the details of his story were hard to believe. You know, as we've said, as we've laid them out. One investigator told him, only an idiot would believe the story you're telling us. Well, on the surface, you can see where the police are coming from. Yeah, because I think you and I, and probably the audience as well, if you just think about what are the odds that something like this would happen to have to be pretty slim. Yeah.

Not that you wouldn't pick up a hitchhiker and something goes bad, but that that hitchhiker not following you home because you didn't go home. Right. You in a different way ended up finding your house. Yeah. Looking for a place. Right. Magically found your your house.

investigators did ask Charles to describe the hitchhiker and they had an artist create a composite sketch. So Charles described him as a black male in his late 20s to early 30s, about 5A, slender, said he had like a pockmarked complexion and he was wearing oversized plastic glasses. And when he saw the drawing, he said, yeah, yeah, that's it. It's accurate and it looks exactly like the man I saw. Now, over the next few days, police learned that Charles potentially had a financial motive to kill his mother. And we mentioned it, right?

They didn't have a motive. No. What is the likely motive in a son or a child killing their parents? A majority of the time, it's money. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we've seen it time and time again. There are other reasons, but I think by and large, it's financially motivated. And just before she died, Dorothy took out an accidental death life insurance policy.

And she listed Charles as the beneficiary. Well, that's not going to help his case. No, because there's motive right there, right? In the eyes of investigators, police. and then to top it off Gibbs, they found out that Charles was in debt and had been for the past couple of years. So you look at it and you say,

well, this insurance money sure would have helped out. And there's no doubt it would have. Sure. Now, Charles didn't have a criminal record. No, he had no, no pass sheet,

like we often talk about with many killers. But he did refuse to take a polygraph. Now, would do the same thing. But detectives thought it was suspicious because if he had nothing to do with it, why would he refuse to take the polygraph? Well, that's because we have seen sometimes those tests just aren't accurate and they can report things that aren't true. Yeah. And that's why we always say, don't take one or, you know, at the very least rely on your counsel, the advice of your counsel. But it's not unusual for us to be talking about cases that happened 30, 40, 50 years ago.

And for the police to look at people who refuse to take a polygraph as being very suspicious, right? Sure. Because I think a lot of times back then they had that mentality. If you had nothing to hide, why wouldn't you take it? because they placed a lot of belief in polygraphs, much more so than is put into them today. Right. And so they thought they were very accurate. And, hey, if you're innocent, it will prove you're innocent.

Well, we know that's not always the case, right? You get in there, you're nervous, it picks up something and it says you're being deceitful or you're lying about some question. Man, the next thing you know, you're in jail. So Charles is in the crosshairs. Police are thinking he either murdered his mother or I think at some point Gibbs, they started to think maybe he paid someone else to do it. Because if you factor that in, then you don't have to really worry as much about the timeline, right?

Making the timeline of events fit as closely as maybe you do. If he did all the stabbing himself and had to, to clean himself up and all of that. So he's got a partner in crime is what they're thinking now. Possibly. Detectives brought him back for another interview and they told Charles. They had proof that he killed his mother. And Gibbs, if you see this interview, you know, at least to me, it seems as though Charles

is showing genuine confusion. Like he cannot believe what these investigators are telling him. Yeah. that they have proof that he killed his mother. And they're like, he's like, what proof? Yeah. It wasn't there. I didn't do it.

Right. Now people put on acts. We know that. But at least to me, it seemed like it was pretty genuine. They told him they were going to charge him with first degree murder once they tested the blood. But pretty quickly, they learned that it wasn't a match, right? It wasn't his blood. And at that point, detectives were a little shocked because I think they were so confident.

they knew that it was going to come back as his blood. He was the murderer. Slam dunk. We got this guy. Yeah, I mean, on the surface, it certainly looked that way.

But they were proven wrong. And they had to accept the fact that, okay, we've got to look at this. Maybe this guy did not kill his mother. And I think that's really when they started switching over completely to the, well, he must have hired someone then.

And maybe it was this man. that he talked about, that he had seen that he had the fight with. Maybe that didn't happen, but he hired this man to kill his mother. Police decided to go back to try to find some witnesses to see if they could verify whether a black male was even at the restaurant that night. And they confirmed that this stranger did exist. We said that earlier. There were witnesses.

They also found out that this individual had asked a number of different people for riots that night. One witness saw Charles and the man fight at the intersection. Police thought that this man was just passing through and was now long gone. He was probably most likely in a different part of the country. Just some transient, huh? Yeah, passing through, maybe. But what investigators did was they put together a lineup.

And this was a lineup of known criminals who, looked very similar to the composite sketch. And they had Charles look at these individuals. And he identified a man named Richard Mitchell from the lineup. And there were some other witnesses from the restaurant who also identified this guy Richard Mitchell. So now police are happy again because, all right, they were wrong about Charles, maybe. But now they've got their guy.

But they again turned out to be wrong. Richard Mitchell was a 33-year-old convicted criminal. He had been arrested for forgery and theft, but he wasn't a killer. He had never killed anyone. They found Richard at his home in Harrington, Delaware, and they knew right away that he wasn't the guy. He had a full beard, and the suspect was clean-shaven. Also, his palm prints didn't match the one at the crime scene, and he had a verifiable

alibi. So it wasn't Richard Mitchell. Police were back at square one. At the same time, Charles was devastated because he thought for sure it was this guy. He and his family were very close. They were crushed by the loss of their mother. They had no idea who had killed her. So they had to grieve her loss kind of with this hanging over their heads, right? Who did it? We don't know. We don't have any answers. The police were. remained suspicious of Charles. And I can see why.

We said it. His story was a little strange. Yeah, pretty complex. It was. It was kind of complex. It was kind of far-fetched. And the crime was very personal, right? We mentioned all the factors that kind of made it look like that.

They just could not accept that a complete stranger would target Dorothy after Charles had left him. a pretty good distance away from her house. And Gibbs, you and I go back and forth depending on the case, right? A lot of times we support the police. Sometimes we question what they do. We kind of go where the case takes us and the facts take us. I kind of understand their thinking in this case.

The only conclusion I can come up with right now with the facts that have been presented is that the police are on track with their thought process. Yeah, it seems that way. By 1994, the case was still unsolved. So police turned two unsolved mysteries as kind of a last ditch effort, right, to help generate leads to help find some answers. One of the lead investigators told the news journal, the case was good for TV because it's bizarre. And that's true. The more bizarre a case is, the more twist and turns you have, the better TV it makes.

sure and your viewership will go up. The problem is unsolved mysteries didn't lead to any new tips and the case remained cold and a number of years passed by without any leads whatsoever. In 1999, the murder case was reopened after the FBI went over some of the evidence. Profilers took interest in it after hearing about the case from a Delaware state police detective who was training at the FBI Academy. Records showed that at the time, a man was seen in the area

who matched the description that Charles gave. The FBI profilers incorrectly determined that the killer knew Dorothy, based on the remote location of her home and how the man broke in without waking her up. They also said that a stranger would not have been able to show the level of anger present at. at the crime scene.

And again, something you and I talk about a lot. The number of stab wounds often equates to rage, at least in the eyes of police, which then in turn equates to the perpetrator knowing the victim. Because Gibbs, how do you generate that type of rage against someone that you've never met? you have nothing against.

That's kind of the thinking, right, in these types of crimes, whether it's a crime of passion or revenge or whatever it is, the rage has built up to the point where I'm not just going to stab you to death. I'm going to stab you over and over and over as the rage pours out of me. I think the problem with that, and it is probably true, the majority of the majority of the of the time. But the problem with that is you and I know we've profiled a number of killers who have selected their victims randomly, but still felt the need to stab them 30, 40, 50 times. There's rage there, I'm sure. There's also stabbing for the sake of sexual gratification.

But if it is rage, it's not directly at that person. person in particular. It's just built up rage that they're letting out against someone that they don't even know. And I think that's the thing with investigations, right? There is no one size fits all. There is no, well, if you have this and this and this, it must have happened this way. I just think every case is different. And that's why sometimes cases are hard to solve. Of course, yeah. In October, of 2000, the profilers went to the home to do a walkthrough. So one agent entered through the back door that the killer used and noticed how every floorboard creaked as he walked through the house. We mentioned it. This was an old farmhouse. Dorothy always locked her doors at night.

So they theorized that she must have heard this stranger, if it was a stranger, breaking into her home. Number one, the glass breaking. Sure. Yeah, you know all that glass breaking and then the creaking of the floorboards. And then the creaking of the floorboards. We also talked about the fact that she normally tried to stay awake until her son got home. The profilers claimed that Dorothy never got out of bed because she thought the intruder wasn't a threat to her. They also claimed that if Dorothy wasn't feeling well, she might have been in a deep sleep and most likely didn't hear.

anything until it was too late. And this was information that they released to the public in January of 2001. You know, I can get where she might have been in a deep sleep because we know she didn't feel well. She told her daughter that earlier that night. I do think if you heard the back door shatter, you're just not going to lay there. Well, yeah. So the first part of that, thinking that whoever's in my house is not a threat to me, I don't understand that at all. You hear broken glass. there's a threat. Sure. Or you have to assume there's a threat.

You can't just lay back down and go to sleep and say, well, yeah, somebody's breaking into my house, but they're not going to come after me. Yeah. To me, that just doesn't even make sense. I'm not even sure why profilers would think that was, uh, was logical. Now, if she wasn't feeling well, maybe she took some medication. That would play into it. Right.

You know, some of those pills make you drowsy is all. get out, they make you sleep great. Might not have heard a sound. That's true. So we mentioned that police tested the blood that they found at the crime scene. They knew it wasn't Charles. They also found out that it wasn't Dorothy's. So they assumed that it belonged to the killer.

They sent it to the FBI forensic lab who confirmed, again, it wasn't Charles. But also they confirmed that it didn't belong to any of, of the men in the lineup. Okay, so it's really going to limit the pool now. But even though police collected the DNA at the crime scene, it wasn't uploaded to Codas until years later. It was November of 2005 that authorities finally got a DNA match. The blood belonged to 41-year-old Gilbert Cannon,

a convicted felon with a long record, that went all the way back, I think, to like 1981. The Delaware police had no idea Gilbert even existed until Maryland police alerted them to the DNA match. At the time, Gilbert lived in Delmar, Maryland. But in 1991, he had lived in Delaware. He had been in jail for murder in 1997. He served time for robbery and drug charges.

I mentioned it, right? his record dated back to 1981 for burglary, assault, theft, resisting arrest, and two different prison escapes. He was a bad guy. Yeah. He had a lot on his record. In May 2004, just before his most recent release from prison, the police collected his DNA, which allowed investigators to get their match.

So right there is what we said, a little bit of luck had to come in to this. Took some time, a little bit of luck. a little bit of luck, some fortunate events. The prison staff took his DNA in blood samples because Maryland law now required DNA collection from all convicted sex offenders and felons. And to me, that's a great law. It probably took way too long to actually get that on the books in most places. Right.

I think if you're convicted of some of these types of crimes. Yeah, these severe levels. Yeah, you should have your DNA taken. You should be in a database so that you can be matched to not only future crimes, but past crimes. Gilbert was released in September 2004 for good time credits. He'd served seven years of a 12 year sentence. He was on parole and required to report to his parole supervisor. but in November 2005, he violated parole and a warrant was issued for his arrest.

So we talked about it, right? Delaware police now had a match. They had a name to go with the blood that they had collected at the crime scene in 1991. The problem was they had to find Gilbert Cannon. Yeah, this was like, where's Waldo? Yeah. After two and a half months, they did find him at his girlfriend's, apartment in Selbyville, Maryland, just 40 miles from where he killed Dorothy Donovan.

Gilbert was arrested in charge with first degree murder on January 18, 2006. They also added additional charges of possession of a deadly weapon during the commission of a felony and first degree burglary. After his arrest, they took his palm print and they were able to match it to the bloody palm print left at the crime scene. Finally. Yeah. So there's no doubt, right? You got the DNA match.

You got the palm print match. He was in the house. Matches his MO. Yeah, it did. I mean, he broke into houses. We know he committed at least one other murder because he was in jail in 1997. I don't know the exact circumstances of that murder, but a. 12-year sentence doesn't sound like much and you're out in seven after committing murder.

Seems a little light. It does. Again, I don't know what the circumstances were. I don't know what the degree ended up being and that plays a big factor. Charles was officially cleared as a suspect. And I don't know, Gibbs. We haven't talked about it yet, but this had to have been huge for him. Because if you think about it, 14, you know,

years. This cloud of suspicion kind of hung over his head, right? Police suspected him of murder. And, you know, it took a took them 14 years to fully believe his story. And I think the other problem that Charles had was with his family, right? He had siblings. I don't know how suspicious they were of him that he actually killed their mother. I don't know that they believe that. I think, What caused a big rift in the family was that they believed whoever he gave the ride to killed their mother if they believed his story. Well, now, and now they knew it was true at a certain point. And they were very upset about that.

You know, he didn't kill their mother. But this person he gave a right to did. Did. Did. And what's his involvement in that in the end? Yeah. I think they wondered why he would even give this guy a ride. And I don't think the siblings and Charles spoke for many, many years.

I think they finally mended the rift after, you know, this Gilbert Cannon guy was identified. But, you know, there's no doubt that Charles went through a lot. You don't know if you could ever explain why you did what you did that's going to make everybody happy. Like, why do you just take this guy to the hospital? Right. Why did you decide to take him and then stop just minutes later at the intersection that you would typically turn to go to mom's house? Why there? Why did you stop there?

Sure. Yeah. I get it, right? You can second guess a lot of things. And I'm sure he himself had a tremendous amount of guilt on top of having to live with all this suspicion that everybody was kind of heaping on him. Oh, yeah. The police, his family. they were all kind of looking at him for many, many years.

I'm sure he found out who his true friends were through those years. Yeah, I'm sure he did. I hope he had some because his family didn't speak to him for quite a long time. Now, when police first interviewed Gilbert, he denied everything. He said, you know, I'm not going to sit here and say, I killed somebody. I'm not even going to say I was there. And even when they confronted him with all of the evidence, the DNA, the palm print.

He still denied it. But a few hours later, Gilbert knocked on his holding cell window and he told the police that he wanted to talk. And he kind of spilled it. He said, basically, I went out. He said, I don't know if it was the drugs or whatever. He said, I don't really have any reason to lie about it now.

And he told them everything. He said that he was high on cocaine. He blamed that for his behavior that night. and he said that after Charles sped off, he just kind of wandered down the road looking for somewhere to sleep. And he said he was passing houses and these houses all had their lights on. And he was looking for some place that was abandoned where he could just lay down and sleep. He knocked on one door, no one answered. And really Gibbs, the first house he found with no lights on, belong.

to Dorothy Donovan. And he decided to break in through the back door. And he told investigators that the noise of the window breaking woke Dorothy up. And that's why he killed her so that she could not identify him. He stabbed her to death while she was laying in her bed. And he used the screwdriver that he stole from Charles's truck. Yeah, the one he went after Charles with. Yep.

But I think Gilbert was genuinely surprised when police told him that the woman he had killed was Charles's mother. He had no idea. Just a coincidence. And that's what he told him. He said it was a coincidence that he targeted Dorothy. He had no idea that she was Charles's mother. Dorothy's daughters were relieved to find this out. And I think this is when the healing of.

the rift began. Yeah, I think Charles needed that information to come out. When his sisters did too. Sure, yeah. Because that's when I think they finally accepted that Charles really had no connection to the murder, right? And it wasn't his actions even that led to this guy killing their mother. It really was a coincidence.

Yeah, there really was no connection between the altercation with Charles and the murder of Dorothy. On April 24th, 2007, Gilbert Cannon pled guilty to first degree murder, and he was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. The only other option available for a first degree murder conviction in Delaware besides capital punishment. Now, the state was planning to pursue the death penalty, but his guilty plea took that off the table. So obviously that's why he pled guilty. Yeah. Well, look, he's, in prison for the rest of his life. So I'm good with that. I'm good with that too. I'm still trying to figure out how he got out seven years for the other murder. Yeah.

Yeah. I would love to know more about that, but I just couldn't find it. You know more deets around that. Yeah. Charles's sister, Brenda, told the news journal that she would have preferred the death penalty. But Diana was happy with the plea bargain. Charles gave no comment to media outlets after the sentencing. all of Dorothy's children were glad the case was finally closed and that they got justice for their mother. I bet finally. Yeah. All those years.

It took a while. Now, I do find it interesting that you have one sister who really wanted to see this man put to death. The other sister was happy with the life in prison. And I understand how that happens. Yeah. Because I get it. people want to see the person that killed their family member pay the ultimate price. But then I think there are some Gibbs who, you know, really look at what's involved in a death

penalty case. Right. And they think, I don't want to go through all that. Yeah. Because you have all the appeals. You have all of these things coming up. There's going to be news reporting on this guy. Some people just want him to go away. Yeah. Disappear in the background. Into a cell, never to be heard from again. And I understand both of the arguments. I really do.

Much more so than when you and I first started this podcast. Oh, yeah. I think our views have changed over time. They have with knowledge, right? Knowledge about how the system works and how it affects the victim's family members. Yeah. Because we've heard that. time and time again, even from people that have written into us, you know, that's hard.

It is on them. It's like reliving the event every time that this person comes up for some type of appeal or there's a hearing or just whatever it is. I think one of the really sad parts of this, I mean, outside of Dorothy's murder, because obviously that was tragic, but it's how it tore the family apart. And I mentioned it. They didn't talk for a long time. They tried to mend it. They still don't talk all that often. Yeah, I think when you have that 14-year gap of not really communicating and blaming somebody for something that they had nothing to do. But you thought they did. You thought they did. I think it's kind of hard to overcome that. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's tough if you really thought in your heart that your brother or sister was the reason for your mother's murder.

Yeah. And I think that's what his sister's thought. Well, for at least 14 years they did. Yeah. Not that he necessarily killed her. Yeah. Although they might have been suspicious at one time. I think they probably were at one point.

But then even later thinking, okay, your actions and what you did that night kind of led up. to her being murdered. Yeah, if you didn't pick him up, drive him to that intersection, maybe he wouldn't walk that way. Maybe he wouldn't add your screwdriver in his hand. You could always do the Monday morning quarterback thing on this one and come up with several different scenarios.

What he should have, shouldn't have done. In 1994, Charles told Unsolved Mysteries. The whole story seemed like a big nightmare to me. It's like you're in some kind of a dream. You don't think it really happened. You think you could drive over two months.

my mother's house and she could be there. But I know that's not going to really happen. Dorothy used to call her daughters every morning and every night to tell them good morning and good night. And what they miss most Gibbs is her friendship. Diana told the producers of Unsolved Mysteries, if she had been killed in an automobile accident or had a medical problem, all right, I could have accepted that. And I don't think anybody has a right to kill someone to take away their life like that. Well, I think we all agree with that. Oh, for sure. Yeah. And obviously it is much tougher. Not that losing a parent's not tough, but, you know, losing someone to a vicious murder. Right. As opposed to, you know, an illness or something like that. It's got to be a little different.

I mean, how vulnerable she had to be at that moment, the pain she had to go through. Nobody wants to think how their mom suffered. So Gibbs, as we wrap up this case, you know, again, we have another case solved by advancements in DNA. We're seeing that all the time, right? We can get justice for victims, bring closure to families in cases that maybe we never thought we could. We thought they were so cold. Yeah.

No suspects. But DNA will get you. Can. Can get you. It's here for the long haul. To me, I think this story also serves as a warning to be wary of strangers. I mean, we're taught that from an early age, right? Don't talk to strangers.

Don't get into cars with strangers. Stranger danger. Now, do we lose some of that as adults? I think many of us do. Yeah. And I'm not saying. saying Charles shouldn't have done what he did. I can't say that because I think everybody has to make that decision for themselves.

I think he thought he was doing something kind for a stranger. It turned out very, very bad. Really bad. And I think he had some type of instinct after he pulled away. And that's why he wanted the guy to get out of his car and said, I can't go any further. I think, I think you're right. You know, I think you're right. But I don't know.

I'm just in the camp of why even put yourself in that position. So here, buddy, call Uber today. Today, there's no doubt. Charles deeply regrets his decision to show kindness to a stranger. And that's sad. It really is. And I know people will think bad of me for saying what I do about the fact that, no, I wouldn't do it. Because I don't think they're going to think bad of you.

Well, some people might. Some people think, you know, you're supposed to help people, and you are. I think what they would think bad is when you see somebody out on the side of the street needing help and you know that you can't take them, but you still swerve near them and splash the water up on them. Yes. That's not nice. That is not nice. You do that. But, you know, outside of that, I've done that to you multiple times.

You have. But, you know, it is such a strange story. You know, when you think about it, his story was. so unbelievable. Oh, yeah. To the police, I think even to some of his family members, to people in town for what, 14 years. Yeah. Until it was finally proven that he wasn't involved in his mother's murder in any way. And that really the entire thing was just a series of tragic coincidences. Yeah. But he's lucky that they did take blood samples that day. Yeah. And, And eventually that they were actually able to identify Gilbert because they got his blood before he left the prison in 2004.

Right. So it's like dominos, right? All these things had to fall into place for Charles to get the outcome or for everybody to find out really that he had nothing to do with it. Right. But you know, I'm sure he carries around a lot of guilds. Oh, I would think so. Yeah. You know, thinking about, okay, what would have happened if I had? not given Gilbert Cannon a ride that night. Could he have possibly still stumbled onto my mother's house? Would he have broken into someone else's house and killed another person? My assumption is he also probably thinks about if he had been there, could he have done something to protect his mother? If he had not taken the drive, if he had gone straight home, straight home. Or if he'd have gone back to

the house as soon as he saw the guy. If he had confronted him instead of driving away to the hearties to call police. But again, you really can't say that he did the wrong thing. It's really kind of hard to say that. It is. I mean, you can second guess it, but. No, I think he probably does. Oh, I'm sure he does. Yeah. And then I think you have to ask the question. Would things have been different if police had taken his call more seriously? If someone had shown up, much of the way, quicker than they would have gotten to the house much quicker. I don't know. Would they have caught him or discovered him while he was still there and maybe not prevented the murder, but it wouldn't have taken 14 years to solve it. Right. So. But that's it for our case on Yilbert Cannon. I just found it fascinating because of all the different pieces to the puzzle. Oh, yeah. And you had to have have each one fall into place for it all to play out the way it did. We've got some voicemails, Gibbs.

You want to check those out? Let's hear them. Hi, Mike and Gibby. I just want to say I enjoy your podcast so much. I normally listen to them when I walk and I used to walk about three miles a day. And I accidentally walked eight the other day because I couldn't stop listening. Thank you for what you do. It's really, really interesting.

And I'm calling from Alabama. All right. Take care. And keep doing what you're doing. All right. Love Alabama. We do. So either roll tide or we're eagle, depending on who you root for. Just depends. Yeah. Okay. Because it's usually one of those two. Yeah. She likes the podcast. That's awesome. We also got her to walk more than what she normally would have. Yeah. See, we made you step it up. We're fitness motivators. We are. And we didn't even know. Hey, Mike, and give me, this is Orlando calling from Salt Lake City, Utah. And I'm on my way to walk. work right now. I just heard your newest episode he put out. And I had a couple things to say. First of all,

Slayer is not a death metal band. It's a thrash metal band. It's actually one of the really big four bands that pioneered rational really. That's what one don't get. Safety. All death mental band, rationales are evil and say, can it. No. We just like to express our selves in different ways. And it's music. That's all really all it is. Thanks for letting me talk. I hope you guys can put this on one of your shows. But I'll be listening.

And thank you for what you guys do. I appreciate everything. All right. Bye. All right. Thanks to Orlando. I actually did get Gibbs a lot of emails on a lot of voicemails about Slayer. Right.

And he's absolutely correct. I looked it up. They're really considered more of a thrash metal, whatever that is. Again, I don't listen to any of that. Um, but I will tell you this, all of the reporting said death metal. And, and maybe that was being sensational, right? Because of what these kids did. Now, I never blamed any of it on Slayer.

No. Now, do I like some of their lyrics? No. But, you know, in my teens, I used to listen to some rap that I wouldn't listen to today because, you know. Yeah. It didn't make me want to go out and shoot the police, though. No. And I do think, you know, blaming everything, all bad things on music, video games, it just can't be. No. There's no way. It's too easy to say that this causes all of this. And it doesn't. There's so many people that listen to that music. So many people that play the video games, they never hurt anybody. They never want to hurt anybody. Just got to take responsibility for your own actions, people. Yeah.

Hey Mike and Gibby. This is Tim from down here in southwest Georgia. I just wanted to take a moment and let you all know just how much I enjoy your podcast. I've been listening to y'all for a little over a year now, and I caught completely up on episodes and had to take a brief break for you to come out with some new episodes. You just wanted to take a moment and let you all know to keep doing what you're doing. I completely enjoy y'all. You both crack me up and do one. heck of a job presenting the information in the best way possible. So y'all boys keep at it and keep you on time ticking. We enjoy you down here in southwest Georgia. Thank you. First of all, one of my favorite accents of all time. Yeah, I love that accent. You know I love a southern accent. Yeah. Absolutely. But I also appreciate the kudos. You, you and I appreciate those type of compliments very much. Sure we do. You know, we do put a lot of work into the show and we appreciate it when people like it. Yeah, it's nice. Makes us feel good. It does make you feel good. Might have to head down to Southwest Georgia.

On your way down to Alabama? No, we'll just do a do Southwest Georgia and just have everybody come from Alabama and right there. All the surrounding states. Right there in the little tri-county area or tri-state or whatever that is. Tri-count. Oh, you are something else. Mike and Debbie What's happening? My name is Sonna I am calling from Everett, Washington

and I had to laugh because I was just listening to the Richard Lyons and you were talking about Scantrons and I wanted to let you go just recently I was the office manager

of a high school now I've worked at the district office but we still use Tantron. It's so ridiculous how expensive they are and it's ridiculous that we still use them. But I just had to let you guys know because that was super funny. I am neither giddy or my team. I love you guys both.

Keep your own time. You get your number two pencil, people. Number two pencil. Number two pencil. Because for some reason it only works with the number two pencil. That's right. I'm kind of surprised to hear that Scantrons are. still in use because, you know, I've seen my daughters, you know, as they've been, as they went through

high school. And it's just like, man, everything is so digital. Yeah. And or if that's even the right word, they're on, you know, cloud based, Google. I mean, I don't even see them writing things. It's not like they're, you know, they're typing. Yeah. All the time. And, and, and sending their work electronically. Electronically. Thank you. Because I was getting ready to say through the interwebs. through the interweb. Interwebs. All right. We got some mailbag.

Yeah. And all of this was from CrimeCon. So our good friend Mary Beth Long brought us some t-shirts. Awesome. We love her. Our good friend Sue Kelly brought some Buckees, peanuts, and candy corn. First of all, we love Buckees. We do.

It's our favorite convenience store. It is. Even though we don't have them here. What we like them when we go there? Yep. When we travel to Texas, I don't know where else Buckees is. I've really only been to them in Texas, I think. Yeah.

But she brought that specifically to simulate Gibby's grandma's potato candy. Yeah. That you talked about in at least one episode, said you were going to make me some. Didn't. Nope. Have not. That was a year or two ago, probably two years. We did a taste test on our weekly Patreon video.

And you said it was surprisingly close. It was. I was really surprised. You got to do the right ratio. Yeah. We weren't sure what the ratio. ratio of peanuts to candy corn was. And then there was a couple at CrimeCon that gave us some very cool t-shirts.

I got Dahmer, you got Gacy. It was based on who we wouldn't want to eat dinner with. If you remember that conversation. They also gave my daughter's Dunkin' Donuts gift card. So it just shows you how closely they're paying attention to the podcast. The problem is I didn't get their name. Oh. So please send me an email.

Tell me who you are so I can give you a proper credit. And we'll know if it's not really you. Yeah. But that's it, Gibbs. That's it for another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.