True Crime All The Time - Glen Edward Rogers

Episode Date: January 27, 2020

Glen Edward Rogers is often referred to as either the "cross country killer" or the "cassanova killer". Rogers traveled extensively throughout the United States and lured his female victims through his looks and charm. He is suspected of killing at least five people but has made claims in the past that his total could be as high as 70 or 80.Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the life and crimes of Glen Rogers. He came up as a possible suspect in our most recent Patreon episode. Since his arrest in 1995, police have looked into Rogers as a suspect in countless unsolved homicides. He has also been linked by some, including his brother, to the murders of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ronald Goldman.You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

on and welcome to episode 167 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime. Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you? I'm good, man. I'm doing good. You're doing good. Yeah. Doing great. We just recorded a Patreon only episode. We did. It's a good one. It was really good. I really think our Patreon folks are going to like it. Yeah. It's about a police officer named Jim Barton that was convicted of setting events in motion that led to his wife's death. Right. It's a case I've always been interested in because Barton was a police officer in my hometown.

Yeah. Right. Uh, next door to where you live now. Yeah. It's also a case where police looked at the subject of our episode today. Green Rogers as a possible suspect. So there was a little bit of a tie in. Gives we have some new Patreon supporters.

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That's a mouthful there. It is. Griselda. Griselda. Griselda. I wonder if that's more Z like. I bet you it is, isn't it? I think so.

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And then if we go back into the Vault Gibbs. Okay. This week, we selected Liz Skinner. Hey, Liz. Liz's been with us a long time. We appreciate all of that long-term Patreon support. Very much so. We had PayPal as well.

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So big thanks, there. Gives, we have a episode out right now of true crime all time unsolved. Yeah. We're talking about the disappearance and murder of Evelyn Hernandez. Yeah. A fascinating case. It really is. And I don't want to give too much away. No. But this is a case that involves her son. Yeah. Five year old son. Her five year old son. This is another one of those cases. And we've had a few where you really get into the question of social bias. Exactly. As it relates to the search and the investigation into Evelyn's disappearance and murder.

Because there would be a comparison to a very well-known murder. And I think we can say that part, right? There's some Scott Peterson. There's some Lacey Peterson talk in this episode because it takes place in the same general area. Exactly. In the same time frame. But check that out.

It's a very good episode. All right, buddy. Are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time? I'm already. We are talking about Glenn Edward Rogers. Often you'll see him referred to as the cross-country killer. Sometimes you'll see him referred to as the Casanova killer. Casanova.

Which if you ever did turn out to. be a heinous criminal. Yeah. I always thought that would be your. Casanova. Nickname. With the K-bar? The K-bar Casanova killer.

And Casanova would be spelled with a K. Of course. Yes. But Rogers roamed the U.S. Looking for targets. He was a pretty good-looking guy, which a lot of people believe made it that much easier for him to lure his female victims.

Sure. Yeah. His M.O. was basically to search out women in their 30s. He would meet women at bars, somehow talk them into giving him a ride home. Sometimes Gibbs,

he would end up living with some of these women for a short period of time. It's not the first time we've heard this story. No, no. But ultimately, he was a killer. This is a case that will take us to a number of different states. Ohio, Louisiana, California,

Mississippi, Florida. The interesting, thing about Rogers is that most of his known crimes occurred in what was really about a month time period in 1995. So based on that, you would call him a spree killer. But he is suspected in a number of other murders. Yeah. And he himself has said at certain points that he killed as many as 70, maybe 80 people. Pretty high count. Now, as often happens, he later retribes. He later retribes. that claim. Right.

And that happens with many of the killers that we talk about. So it's hard to know the truth from the BS when it comes to these guys and a guy like Glenn Rogers. I definitely feel like it would, it is greater than the number he was accused of. Yeah. Oh, I don't think many people doubt that. Right. I think the number's higher.

Now, do I think it's 70 or 80? No. No. Could it be? Maybe. but I definitely think it's higher. There's no doubt that it's higher than what he was convicted for. And we'll get into that.

But I think it's higher than what even will probably talk about. Yeah. I think there might be some that people just don't know about. Either way, you know, you can't trust these individuals. No. As far as you can throw them. And really, you shouldn't be throwing anybody with your bad back. No.

Not with my bad back. That's just a fact. No. I got to be careful. So let's start with a little background. Rogers was born in Hamilton, Ohio, just south of where you and I live. On July 15th, 1962 to Claude and Edna Rogers. We've been in Hamilton before Gibbs on a couple of cases.

It's pretty close to Cincinnati. Glenn was the sixth of seven children. It's quite a household. It is a big household. The problem is, I don't think it was a great childhood. Although Glenn's mother later told the Cincinnati Inquirer that he had, quote, a normal childhood. Oh. Most of the research that I found would suggest that it was anything but normal, but normal.

Claude, his father was reported to have been an abusive alcoholic. It's been reported that his mother was abusive to all of the children as well. at the age of 12, Rogers got into drugs and began burglarizing houses with his brother. So right off the bat, I'm not calling this a normal childhood. I didn't do that at 12. Yeah, I didn't do. I waited until I was at least 19. Oh, I didn't wait that long.

But maybe for them, that was normalcy, you know? But when you use the term normal childhood, you shouldn't be talking about your normal. You should be talking about, in my mind, society's normal. Yeah. The perception of normal. Quote, unquote. Yeah.

Now, what really is normal? That's a strange word because it's, it is a little different for, for everyone. I don't think being in an abusive home and, you know, doing drugs at 12 and breaking into houses at 12 is really considered normal, although there's a lot of people that get into some bad things when they're young. Unless you grew up on a serial court, you know, the Bundys were there and that little bungalow and he had the gacy family in that two-story. You lived in a rough cul-de-sac. Yeah, exactly. But I guess Rogers and his brother robbed over 200 houses. It's quite a pit, man.

Yeah. At 12 years old, that means, you know what? You're pretty damn good at it. You are. At 12 to get away with that many robberies before getting caught. But he did get caught. and Glenn was sent to a reform school at the age of 12. So if you think about it, in 1974, he's 12 years old. That was a pretty rough year. Yeah. For him. Well, unless he was happy to get out of the house and get to this reform school, you

could look at it that way. Yeah. And you try to figure out what was the take of 200 homes. That's true. Could have been a banner year. Maybe he socked that away and he was going to come back and get that. So talking about him in school. school, the kid got horrible grades.

Oh, he's never in there. Well, yeah, I don't know how much he was in there. But, I mean, we're talking like straight F's is what I read. Yeah. He dropped out in the ninth grade. He was 16 years old. That's surprising. That he dropped out?

Yeah. Or that he was 16 years old. Both. You know, well, first of all, I'm not even sure how he made it to the ninth grade. Because it really sounded like he didn't pass any of his classes ever. So I'm not really sure if it was. one of those situations where, you know, back during the 70s and 80s, they did try to push some of those kids through.

Just keep moving along, folks. This was way before no child left behind. I mean, they pushed me out of 16 years old. Yeah. And you're Gibby. Yeah. But to be 16 in the ninth grade, that most likely means you were held back, right? I don't think most people are 16 in the ninth grade, held back a year, maybe two years.

years. It's not that big a deal. A lot of people get held back. Yes, we do. I just don't know how you make it through the system when your report card says F, F, F, F, F, F, F, F, F, F, F, and they're like, yeah, just go on, go on to the next one. You take a pencil and you turn those Fs into Bs. There you go. Sounds like somebody that has done that before. Yeah. I mean, I heard about it. Now, I imagine you being more of like a war games, hacking in through the old time modem into the school's computer changing all the grades that way. I was a real, what's a kid's name? Matthew Broder?

Yeah, that was him. I was doing that. But here's the thing, Gibbs. I don't think there was any secret. Glenn Rogers was not an overly intelligent human being. His IQ was later tested at 76. Yeah. It's not very hot.

No. Glenn had a skin condition that resulted in red splotchy places on his skin. Now, his mother later said in interviews that it came from playing in puddles near the local chemical plant. Well, that might do it. That's what she said. Yeah. Now, medical records indicate that he had something called porphyria.

I don't know if I'm saying that right, but porphyria. Porphyria. I'm going to go with porphyria. Porphyria sounds like. That sounds better than it. Yeah. It's also called Mad King George's disease. Oh, that poor period.

So one medical journal said that it can develop as a result of excessive use of alcohol or drugs, which I think he did both. It doesn't sound like it's something that is necessarily present all the time. It sounds like in a lot of people, it's an attack, whether it's stress or anger or something that triggers the red blotchy places on the skin. But in the medical journal, there was also talk of explosive bloody bowel discharges. That doesn't sound good. Now, we're getting juicy. Yeah.

I don't know about you. None of that sounds good. No. Now, I don't want to be blotchy if I can help it. But I sure as hell don't want to be walking down the street and all of a sudden have what is called an explosive bloody bowel discharge. BPD, man, can't be good. I think it's going to ruin the rest of your day.

You're going to have a tough time with your wardrobe. Well, your laundry expense definitely goes up. Yeah, you're going to get some strange looks from the dry cleaner. Oh, for sure. For sure. But it does sound like it's a real medical condition. So I'm not making fun of it. It sounds horrible.

Yeah, it does. To be honest with you. I mentioned that Roger, went to reform school, but obviously didn't reform him. The guy was constantly in trouble for one thing or another. I think a lot of it was related to his drinking or drug use. He had a number of arrests for DUI and public intoxication. One of the things I really took away from his life before he started committing his murders was

this guy was extremely abusive. to all of the women in his life. He stole. Yeah. He was involved in a lot of thefts. He was a check forger. Pretty much anything that he could do to get by he would do, I think. He did get married at the age of 18 and a pair had a son.

But what was interesting about that story is this woman already had a son. Oh. With another man. Okay. And it does happen. But Glenn Rogers took this boy. way in and eventually adopted him as his own. Oh, that's impressive.

It's impressive. It's not something that you think about with killers. Mm-mm. Normally not that compassion. No. Yeah. Or that they would even care enough to go to that link to do something like that. Yeah, they'll have their own kids and they take care of their kids and all that.

But just to have a special connection? It must have because it does take a, you know, it takes a certain type of man. to be able to raise another man's son in that way. Yeah. And adopt him, give him your name and take him as your own. Right. By the way, it's my new song coming out. What?

Takes a special kind of man. Yeah. You forgot what the song was already. I just had to remind you. I don't want to like give it away. I don't know, Gibbs. You put that song out. I think people are going to question it.

You singing a song called It Takes a special kind of man. Special kind of man. Okay. Maybe I shouldn't. Maybe you shouldn't. Maybe you should think about your song titles a little. I need to think about a lot of things more in depth. Yeah.

Make a song called It Takes a special kind of woman. Take special kind of woman. How you doing? How you doing? You know you are. All right. So half of our female listeners now think you're talking directly to them. Come on now.

You can't do that. You know, I had a lot of, when I say a lot, I had some friends that went to reform school. Mm-hmm. I had zero. Well, ones I had. I chose my friends very wisely. Yeah, I didn't. Carefully.

But it didn't reform them either, you know? They didn't come back like, wow, man. That really, uh, I'm going to change my way. Yeah. No, they were still as wild as they were before they were. Actually, some of them were even more wild. Is reform school any different than jail? Is it any different than prison?

You and I talk about, you know, people going in there and sitting around talking to other really bad people. about what they've done. I mean, if anything, I think some of these people went to reform school and learned. Sure. What how to do certain things and get away with it. You know, I don't know. I don't want to put it down, but I think it works for some.

Oh, I'm sure it does. I think everything works for some people. But it's not a fix all curl. You know, one of the problems with Rogers was that he was a very jealous person. He was involved in a number of violent altercations with other men. And he was such a big drinker, Gibbs, that he reportedly ended up in the hospital. Yeah. After injecting Budweiser directly into his veins.

Oh, well, there's always that way. The first step is acknowledging you have a problem. Yeah. And if you're injecting beer into your veins, so intravenously, I think you write in and there, you should recognize that you have a problem. I guess he didn't hear about the suppository way, you know, like the coffee drinkers that we talked about that one time, you know, just not, not safe either, but at least you're not sticking, well, you're sticking yourself, but just not in your vein. That's true. And this actually

might have been where he was diagnosed with the, the blood disease or the skin, skin disease. Oh, yeah. Because he did end up in the hospital a number of times due to alcohol related issues. He over drank and damn near killed himself a few times. It does take the whole meaning to this Bud's for you. To a whole new level. Yeah. Yeah. They're not going to put that one in their Super Bowl ad.

No. That's for sure. Now, the relationship with his first wife didn't last long. Just a few years after they were married, Rogers was in California. And basically from here on out, he is going to be all over the U.S. He traveled with the circus for a number of years. So we've got a Carney aspect to Glenn Rogers. We can talk about Carney's.

because they don't listen anymore. No, right. We've alienated our whole Kearney audience. This guy was a drifter. And I do think Gibbs, that's one of the reasons why there are so many unanswered questions as to just how many murders he may have been responsible for. You see that in a lot of cases where people are drifters and, you know, hop trains and stop in all these different cities. well, heck, they could have killed a lot of people.

Oh, I mean, sure they did. I always wanted to do the hop train thing, though. Without the killing, please. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, just hop a train and get off wherever you want. Yeah. Are you going to have the bendal? Hobo stick?

Bindle, I'll call it a bendel. I'm not sure if you're supposed to use the word hobo anymore. Oh, is that not politically correct? I don't know. I don't know what's politically correct and what's not half the time. Well, that's what I grew up knowing what it was called. Yeah, I think that the actual term is called a, Bindle or something like that. I think you're right. I think I just have a backpack.

Seems much easier. Yeah, it does. It doesn't seem like you can get much in there. No. It's just like a handkerchief. What do you put in there? Tied to a stick. Like one pair of clean underwear and I don't think those guys are too worried about clean underwear. Probably like a loaf of bread, something. I don't know. All right, Gibbs. Let's take a quick break to talk about our sponsors. And first up is Sikara. The new year is a time to change your habits. So you can be your healthiest self. But if you need some help with a new routine, Sikara can. can help you eat better and feel better. We all know it's very tough, sticking to a resolution, but changing your routine doesn't have to be difficult. Sikara is a nutrition company that focuses

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Best Fiends. He definitely had a large number of arrests over the years in many different states. I mean, we're talking about things like assault with a deadly weapon, domestic violence. I mean, these weren't little things. These were some pretty serious charges. But because he moved around so much, I don't think that the judges were fully aware of his past misdeeds because it seemed like he was always getting off with just a little slap on the wrist. Probably to them, it seemed like first offense. Yes.

And look at the time frame we're talking about. They're not punching up a computer probably to see what this guy's been into. Right. And we kind of talked about that. on the unsolved case last week with Barjona. He did terrible stuff on the East Coast. Then when he got out to Montana, which he did terrible stuff,

but they had no idea what monster just moved into there. Very similar. Yeah. Very similar. Glenn Rogers' first victim is thought to be a 73-year-old Hamilton, Ohio man named Mark Peters, whose decomposed body was found in an abandoned cabin owned by the Rogers family near Beattyville, Kentucky. This was in early 1994.

The Cincinnati Inquirer reported that family members of Mark Peters came forward and said that Rogers lived with Peters, beginning in late 1993. The problem is the medical examiner couldn't rule Peter's death a homicide because the body was so badly decomposed by the time. they found it. Yeah. And that's tough. That's extremely tough. If you can't definitively say that someone was murdered, how are you going to charge somebody with murder? Exactly. But Hamilton police did want to question Glenn Rogers about the death of Peters. They just never could catch up with him because by the time they started looking for him, he had already moved to California. Yeah, because he's moving around all the time. Yeah. He was in California.

A number of different times. And again, if you're traveling with the circus for any length of time, and I think he did for about maybe three years. Yeah. And you are going to be all over the country. Oh, you're in a different city, different state, you know, every week. In September 1995, Glenn Rogers began what is known to be his killing spree. He was 33 years old.

He met 31 year old Sandra Gallagher, a mother of three at a bar in Van Nuys, California. and she offered him a ride home. Again, we kind of talked about his M.O. He specifically went to bars looking for women in their 30s. Yeah. His known victims are pretty much all in their 30s. And he was such a sweet talker, a charmer that, and like I said, he was a halfway decent looking guy.

Yeah. He would charm these women. The next thing you know, he was getting. a ride home with them. And a lot of times that would spell disaster. He'd use that Casanova charm at the bar to do that. Yeah, to get what he wanted. Sure. Unfortunately, what he wanted was to rape this woman. Yeah. Which he did. Then he strangled her. And then Gibbs, he set her on fire inside of her own Ford truck. That's just horrendous man. The whole thing. Yeah. After he did this, he quickly left town. He should have. He boarded a greyhound bus to Jackson, Mississippi. That's a long

ways. Yeah. From Van Nuys, California to Jackson, Mississippi. But police were on to him. They wanted to question him very early on after Sandra's death. I mean, number one, he had been seen with her at the bar. And when they checked into him, they found that he had a record of setting fires. He had a misdemeanor charge years earlier for setting a couch on fire. In 1991, Hamilton, Ohio police responded to a domestic violence call made by Glenn's girlfriend at the time when they knocked on the door. Glenn stuck a blow torch into the peephole and fired it off. Oh, man.

Trying to burn these police officers. Not the smartest guy. Then in 1994, while he was in Hollywood, Again, not sure how he got to California because you would think you try to blow torch police officers, you're going to be spending quite a bit of time in a facility. But in 1994, he was in California. He got into a fight living in Hollywood with his girlfriend. He poured gasoline on all of her clothes and set him all on fire.

So the guy definitely had some arson type issues. Yes. In that case, the charges. were dropped because his girlfriend refused to testify. Probably scared the death of him. Yeah. Yeah. I don't doubt it.

But based on their investigation, the Los Angeles police eventually issued a murder warrant for Glenn Rogers. And it's the thing about this case. It all happens very quickly. It's sometime in October. He met 34-year-old Linda Price at the Mississippi State Fair. We mentioned it, right? he went to Jackson.

Right. He used his good looks and charm. Casanova. Again, to worm his way into Linda's life and quickly moved in with her. Really quick. Yeah, I don't know how he was, he was such a smooth talker that, you know, you're meeting someone and you're talking your way into their house, into their apartment to essentially live there.

Hey, I don't have a place to sleep tonight. Can I stay here? A lot of guys can't even get a second date. No. Some can't even get a second date. first date. Come on. That's true.

But a lot of guys after the first date can't get that coveted second date because they screwed the first one up. Right. This guy was so good, so suave. He got to move in. That he's moving in. I don't want you to leave. I want you to stay here.

I want you to, that couch is always going to be yours. Gibbs, I'm not sure he was sleeping on the couch. He probably wasn't. It was on November 1st. Glenn Rogers murdered Linda Price in the bathtub of her apartment in Jackson, Mississippi, her body was discovered two days later. On the third, the coroner's report said that Price was stabbed four times in the chest and the side with a knife. And it was estimated that she had been dead for two days. Police also said that the murderer tried to clean both the bathroom

and Linda's body before fleeing the scene. So he made the attempt to try to make it look like he wasn't there. He tried. Yeah. And I don't know how good. good a job he did. I'm not sure what physical evidence in this case they ever had against Glenn Rogers because it would never go to trial. Right. And we'll say why that is as we go along. But two days later, he was in Florida. And it was on Sunday, November 5th that Glenn Rogers met 34 year old Tina Cribbs at the Showtown Lounge near Tampa, Florida. And apparently this Showtown Lounge was a very popular hangout for carnival workers. Oh.

Many of them flock to the Tampa area during the winter months. Want to stay warm. They wanted to live somewhere warm, I guess. Be around with some water. But because of this, Rogers had a number of friends in the area. So he met Tina at the bar. And I think this was another thing that kind of came through the research. in some cases where he was in places where he knew other people.

Right. He used that to his advantage. He wasn't a total stranger. Oh. He had been to the bar. He had friends in the bar. So there was a thought that some of these women may have felt a little more at ease. Oh, sure.

There's definitely a level of comfort. Yeah. Leaving with this person because it's like cheers, right? Everybody said the guy's name when he came in. I'm not saying it was to that level, but. No, but exactly right. When everybody that's coming around you's like, hey, how you doing? You're like, hey, how you doing, bud?

You're like, oh, this is a normal guy. Yeah. Now, I'm not sure that was the same in Mississippi because he hadn't spent that much time there. Right. But in Tampa, he did have some friends. Sure. And it was said that he had been to this bar, you know, many times over the years. He asked Tina for a ride back to his motel.

And the two ended up in his room at the Tampa 8 Inn. Roger stabbed Tina twice and left her body in the bathtub. Then Gibbs, he went to the motel office. He paid for the room some extra days through Tuesday. Okay. And he told the front desk that he didn't want anyone to go into his room. And that included the mates. He didn't want any maid service.

Whatever you do, don't let the mates come in here. Which some people may look at that as odd. It is odd. I do not. Because I do not like people in my room when I'm staying in a hotel or motel. I think it's weird to go to the front desk to say it. I just put that Do Not Disturb on and I just leave it on. Well, we'll talk about it more when it comes up at trial.

I guess this is the Tampa 8N. I'm not sure that they had Do Not Disturb signs. He made his own. He made a handwritten sign, I think, that said, do not disturb. We'll talk about it later. Yeah. But he wasn't taking any chances. Gibbs, he has a dead body in the bathtub and he needs time to get away.

Sure. So he's going to go out of his way to say to everyone, whatever you do, don't come in. But when you look at his crimes and you look at what he did, the one thing that jumps out, at least to me, is that it doesn't appear as though he was super worried about people remembering him, thinking that he, you know, what he did was strange. It's not like, you know, he didn't call right from a pay phone and say, hey, I'm in room, whatever. And anyway, he gave his real name. He didn't make any effort to hide who he was. No. No. And he had to have known that eventually the body of Tina Cribs was going to be found in that bathtub. Yeah. I mean,

anybody's going to know that. Maybe it's not going to be until Tuesday. And that's actually what happened. The maid goes in on Tuesday and finds Tina's body in the tub. But Rogers was long gone by that time. Because, you know, after killing Tina and after going to the desk to pay for the room in advance, he took off. And he took off in Tina's white Ford festiva. Oh, the festiva. And drove to both. And drove to Bozier City, Louisiana, which is near Shreveport. Sure. And it was in Bozier City that Rogers met 37-year-old, mother of two, Andy Giles Sutton, in a bar called The Touch of Class.

And he did the same thing again. You know, somehow talked this woman into being with him. I'll use that term. They ended up in her apartment. And there were some conflicting stories on this. There was some stories that maybe he had stayed there a little while. Right. There were some stories that they just went back there the night of November 8th.

Either way, it was November 8th when Roger stabbed Andy to death in her room and then he fled her apartment. She was later found dead on her waterbed, which had been punctured. Right. Pretty hard to murder somebody with a knife on a waterbed. Yeah, you're going to probably hit it. And not puncture it. Yeah. Do you have a water bed?

I had a water bed growing up and I loved it. I did too. What happened to water beds? Why did they go out of style? I don't know. Do you have the full one or do you have the tubes that you put in? No, mine was just the full, just nothing but water. Yeah.

No support. No baffles. No baffles, no nothing. You were just like on the ocean. You moved, the whole bed moved with you. Yep. I actually liked it, but I don't think now at my age, I think I've, If I tried to sleep on a waterbed, I probably couldn't walk the next day.

My back would hurt so bad. Yeah, I think so. Maybe that's why my back so bad now. Because I did sleep for so many years on a water bed. Thanks, Mom. Someone's going to message you like, oh, waterbeds are coming back on a big time. Yeah, they probably are. I don't see them the way that I used to see them.

It seemed like everybody back in the day had a water bed. They were so, it was such a novel thing. It was cool. I think memory foam's really taken over. Yeah. That's what I have now. Yeah. Same here.

But Gibbs, it didn't take long to connect these murders to Glenn Rogers, right? These different agencies began talking to each other and they had his name. And once they found out that he was connected to the other ones, it was pretty clear. Right. That this guy was a killer. He was on the run. And everyone was looking for him. An FBI agent came out and told reporters that one of his family members had spoken to Rogers on the phone.

And I guess he said that he would continue killing until he was stopped. The agent said, quote, he's leaving marks. He wants people to know it's him. He wants to make a name for himself. I believe he's enjoying killing these people now. It's kind of hard to argue with. Oh, there is no argument. No, because you and I have talked about.

this before. Why do you continue to do something unless you enjoy it? Now, take away exercise and take away eating broccoli and stuff like that. You do that kind of stuff because it's good for you. Right. Why do you do other things that you don't have to do? Yeah. Unless you enjoy it. Most people don't. Either you enjoy it or a little voice in your head is telling you to do it. But we talked about it. You know, it just didn't seem like Glenn Rogers was a man that was all that worried about being caught. It was almost as if he made the decision in late 1995 that he was going to start killing. Now, he most likely had killed before. We talked about the man in Hamilton, but it seems like he made the decision that he was going to target these women.

He was going to kill them. And he was going to keep doing it. Well, because you're exactly right. He's not doing anything to hide it. No, and it'll come out in the evidence, right? Once they start detailing out what evidence they have on him that it's not like he was really going above and beyond to try to cover his tracks. I mean, he was pretty confident in what he was doing. Either that or he just didn't give a flip.

He probably didn't give a flip. He said, this is what I'm going to do and I'm going to do it until they catch me. Yeah. I do think there are people that make that decision. Like Jesse James, you're going to have to shoot me down. Yeah. But look at the timing. I mean, you know, within a month's time, this guy has killed four women that we know of. At least. Yeah. That we know of. All right, Gibbs, let's take a minute to talk about Upstart. You know, between hitting the gym, eating cleaner, learning new skills, there's a lot of ways that we can better ourselves in the new year. But I can't really think of one that's more important than starting the year off by tackling that high interest credit card debt. Our friends at Upstart.com are here to help. Upstart is the revolutionary lending platform that offers smarter rates to help you pay off high-interest credit card debt.

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Checking your rate only takes a few minutes. That's upstart.com slash T-Cat. A week after Rogers murdered Tina Cribs, he was in Kentucky. And by this point, the story was all over the new. They were looking for Glenn Rogers. They knew exactly who he was. He'd already been profiled on America's Most Wanted. They came out very quickly with an episode.

So you had all these police officers in all these different states that were advised to be on the lookout for Glenn Rogers. Many of them Gibbs, it was said, were carrying his picture. Yeah. This is what a big story it was and what type of manhunt we're talking about. Rogers had gone back to Beattyville where he had relatives. These relatives lived across the highway from the family cabin where the body of Mark Peters was found. But these relatives wouldn't take him in. They knew about his past.

Obviously, he was all over the news. Right. They called the police. Yeah. Come get this crazy member of our family now, please. and it was on November 13th, 1995. A police officer saw a person that he thought was Glenn Rogers driving a white Ford Festiva and he attempted to pull him over.

We talked about the Ford Festiva similar to the Ford Fiesta. Oh, we're going to bring the Fiesta back into the picture. I mean, it was very similar, right? I'm not even sure why they made both of them. They were both little subcompact cars back in the day. I guess Ford thought back. then, hey, we need both a fiesta and a festiva. Well, it's depending on how you say it, maybe one sounded more festive.

Well, you can never have too many cars that sound like you're having a party on wheels. Right. But to me, Gibbs, neither one of these cars was really big enough to have much of a party in. Yeah, they're definitely a commuter car. Yeah, they were very small. And I did check to make sure that they had stopped making the festiva. Yeah. So as not to piss off all the Ford Festiva current owners.

Right. I think they stopped making it in like 2002 or something. Yeah. Now, there might be some people that have an old one. Oh, you know there are. And you're going to hear about it. But I wasn't going to make the same mistake I made with the Fiesta and think, okay, I'm sure they stopped making it 20 years ago when, no, they're still making it.

Yeah. Although I did see where they canceled it. Did they? I think. I think I saw that in a new story. Okay. They canceled the fiesta. Well, there's still some out there, man.

Oh, there's a bunch. out there. Yeah. So this police officer is trying to pull Rogers over, but Glenn's not going to give up. There's too much at stake, right? He has no reason to give up voluntarily. So he took off. He also had been drinking heavily. I think he was pretty blitzed at that time, which is always nice to think about that there's a man driving around on the roadways that's blitzed and trying to get away from the cops. The police officer called for backup and a high speed chase ensued. At one point, Gibbs, I guess Rogers started throwing empty beer cans out of the car. Yeah.

Back at the officers that were chasing him. That's going to stop you. Yeah. I don't know what he thought he was going to do. Now, if you had some full beer cans going 100 miles an hour, it might. That would probably break a windshield. I'd be like, there's another literature. ticket for you, buddy, when we get you. But a bunch of empty beer cans coming at you.

I don't know what that's going to do. The chase lasted 15 miles. Officers were eventually able to force Rogers off the road and they apprehended him. What was interesting was that there was a Cincinnati news station, WCPO. They were there filming this as it went down. Wow. So you can go out there and watch it. And once they got Rogers out of the car, a reporter,

tried to ask Glenn some questions after he was put in handcuffs and they were trying to get him into the police car that's when that police canter comes in handy for those uh yeah news people yeah so let's play that clip when did you do this one-on-one talk to me in person alone did you do this glad did you kill those women glad what they're going to get me glad glad why did you kill those women Oh no, no, run alone. That's a jail. You interview me. Did you kill the women?

You hear me? Did you kill these women, Glenn? No. So I know it's a little hard to understand. The guy keeps asking him. He keeps saying one-on-one, come down, interview me at the station, one-on-one. Because the reason why it's hard to hear, the entire time, the police officers are trying to jam his head into the car. Into the car.

And he's fighting them to talk to this reporter. Right. I just thought it was interesting because it doesn't. It doesn't happen very often that a news crew is there to witness and film a high-speed chase and the police taking down, you know, the suspect. Yeah. They probably got a Peabody for that. It wasn't like this was a three-hour chase and they, you know, it was 15 miles.

And they were doing like 100. Right. You can. Over pretty fast. You can do that math. That's, what, seven, eight, nine minutes. When police officer searched the car, they found a bunch of food, a course. cooler, a duffel bag, a comforter, and two pillows. I don't think it was that hard to tell that this

guy was either on the lamb, or he was on some type of cross-country vacation by himself. Yeah. Also in the car, they found license plates from both Mississippi and Florida. Because really, when you think about it, you can never have too many different license plates. No, it's important to rotate them. Like your tires. You're supposed to rotate out your license. You're supposed to rotate out your license. license plates should so that they wear evenly exactly but i'm sure that wasn't suspicious at all right to police not that it matters they know they got the guy they know that this guy is wanted for multiple murders really the biggest things they found in the car were a motel room key to the room where tina cribbs body was found yeah that's pretty damning evidence it's it's it's hard to skirt around

They also found a blood-stained t-shirt. Yeah. And they found a pair of jeans with blood on them and a blood smear on the inside of the driver's door. I mean, so it just tells you right there with the room key and with the bloodstained clothes. He really didn't give a rats. You know what? Because he had opportunities to get rid of that stuff. Oh, sure.

But he didn't care. He didn't care. What are they going to do? He figured if they're going to catch me, they're going to catch me. and doesn't matter what I have in the car. Right. But you've essentially given them like slam dunk type evidence. Yeah.

You know, you and I talk about a lot of cases where the evidence is circumstantial. It's thin. It's connecting, but is it proving beyond a reasonable doubt that someone killed somebody? Right. This guy has the room key to the room where he left this woman's body in the bathtub, not to to mention the fact he's driving her car. Yeah. With some of her blood staying close. Yes, exactly. When the Kentucky authorities questioned Rogers, he told them that he got the car from a girl that he met at a bar. He said the two went back to his hotel room and Rogers took off with her car to get

some beer and cigarettes. He decided not to go back, but he said when he left the girl, she was alive. Well, that makes sense then. Oh, sure. Yeah, okay. Go ahead. Go on your way. Yeah. We're done. with you. I mean, it's a Ford Fiesta of Fiesta of Festiva. It's a Ford Fistiva. Fiesta Vistiva. Yeah. I'm surprised they didn't make one of those too. Yeah, they could have. A fiesta. Yeah, maybe they did. So what happened next was basically you had a whole bunch of states who lined up to get their hands on Glenn Rogers. Right. Because they wanted to try him for murder in their state. It was ultimately decided that Florida would get their hands on him first. And Gibbs, I think it makes a lot of sense, right?

Florida was the first to charge him. They definitely had the evidence to back their case up. He was driving in it. It was found in the car. Police and prosecutors from all these different states, they actually came to Kentucky. And they all met together and agreed that Florida had the best chance of convicting Rogers. Yeah.

And on top of that, Florida had the death penalty. So if he was convicted, these other states knew he was going to most likely get a death sentence. Right. So they wanted to see that play out and then decide, right? So if something went wrong in his Florida trial, they would be waiting in the wings. Oh, for sure. Yeah. I mean.

To take him on. Let Florida spend the money, go through the process, get the conviction. If they don't, like you said, then we'll take it on or if we feel like after that, we still want to try him, then we will. Yeah, that's basically what they decided. So Rogers was shipped to Florida. The other states would keep a close eye on the outcome of his Florida trial to see how they wanted to proceed.

He went on trial for the murder of Tina Cribb in late April 1997. And we've already talked about it, right? The evidence against him was overwhelming. He was caught driving Tina's car. He had a key to the motel room where her body was found. They later did DNA analysis of the bloody jeans in the car and they found a mixture of both Glenn's and Tina's DNA. Okay.

I don't know what else you need. I'll say it pretty compelling. Prosecutors also produced Rogers Watch that investigators found back at the motel next to Tina's body. Yeah. That doesn't help. No, I mean, I think it would have taken a miracle for him to not be found guilty. Right.

In her murder. This is just, you know, evidence stacked on top of evidence. It's way more evidence than you and I see in a lot of cases. Really, for a prosecutor, it's a dream come true. Yeah. Right. Right. Because a lot of prosecutors are weighing their evidence, even trying to decide whether or not

they can persuade a jury. There's no decision here. No. I mean, you've got everything you need. Now, there could be something that you're not aware of that could put a snag in the trial, but I don't know what it would be. The only thing they really need to do is to keep it clean, get it to trial, get it through, be done with it so they don't lose anything down the road if it goes to a pill.

So according to court documents, a bartender testified that Rogers arrived at the bar, then Tina Cribbs and three female friends arrived a few hours later. Rogers purchased the women a round of drinks. And I guess he introduced himself as Randy. Eventually, he asked Tina Cribs for a ride and she agreed. Now, the next morning, she didn't show up for work. A motel clerk testified that Rogers had arrived at the motel by cab on Saturday. This is a day before the murder.

The motel clerk said that Rogers told him he was. was a truck driver and his truck had broken down. On Saturday, he paid for a two-night stay. And then the clerk testified that on Sunday evening, shortly before Rogers came into the motel office, he observed this guy with two suitcases near his motel room. Yeah. This is interesting because we know he's about ready to come into the office and pay for additional nights. Yes. Why is he getting additional nights if he's taking his suitcases when he's packing up his stuff and leaving so it's interesting testimony the clerk went on to say that he saw rogers packing the suitcases into a white ford festiva rogers then entered the office paid for the additional nights talked about the

i don't want anybody in my room this is where the do not disturb sign comes in yeah because what the the hotel clerk testified to was that Rogers asked for a sign. The guy said, we don't have any. And then it was around 9 a.m. the next morning. The clerk saw Rogers leaving the motel alone in the White Ford Festiva. The cleaning person at the motel testified that she went into the room on Tuesday and she noticed a handwritten do not disturb sign hanging on the doorknob.

She also said she saw the same exact sign on Monday. and so she never went in, right? She didn't go in to clean it. When she went in on Tuesday, this cleaning woman found Tina Cribbs body in the bathroom. She was lying on her back in the bathtub. She was clothed, wearing a damp t-shirt, underwear, and socks.

The state's forensic pathologist estimated that Tina Cribs could have been dead for between one to three days before she was found. he said that she died as a result of two stab wounds, one to the chest, and one to her buttocks. And you wouldn't normally think that that would be a very serious wound. No, you wouldn't. But apparently it hit some type of artery. And it was actually a very devastating wound. In addition to those injuries, she had bruises, abrasions, and a shallow wound to her left arm,

which the pathologist said was some type of defensive wound. She was definitely wearing her clothing when she was stabbed. That was pretty easy to figure out because there was holes in the shirt. Right. Where the knife entered. This trial lasted less than two weeks. And on May 7th, the jury found Rogers guilty of first degree murder. Then two days later, it took them less than two hours.

Pretty quick. To recommend the death penalty. Yeah. I don't think there was. was all that much discussion. No, I think it was pretty much a slam. Slam dunk, really. The evidence was there.

Probably not hard for this jury to make that decision. I really don't think Gibbs. It was that hard for them to come back with a recommendation of death. On July 11, 1997, the judge sentenced Rogers to die in the electric chair. And the judge said to him, Miss Cribs was conscious, at least long enough to realize her lifeblood was flowed. into the bathtub drain and that she could not escape death gives us kind of a chilling statement that really is it conjures up a very sad image of this woman's final moments yeah I mean basically what he's saying is she's wounded right and I mean severely wounded but she's

conscious so she's seeing herself bleed out yeah with the knowledge that she's not going to make it. No, she's probably feeling her limbs go numb as the blood leaves her body and sad. And you think about it, she's alone. Yeah. No one there to help her. It is, it is very sad to think about what those final moments must have been like for Tina Cribs. And I'm sure that that type of stuff entered the jury's mind when they brought back the recommendation for the death sentence. Oh, Yeah. It was a very callous murder. But all his murders were, you know? I think they were. I think they were very callous.

And Rogers' own defense attorney. We'll talk about it here in a minute, but he has some things to say about this guy. Glenn Rogers was unfazed. As the verdict was handed down, as his sentence was handed down, it was like it just didn't bother him or it didn't register. It could be that. I just didn't, like you said earlier, I just don't think he cared. Catch me if you can. I'm going to go around and kill people. I'm not going to do anything to cover it up. If you get me, you get me. I'll deal with it at that time.

As he was let out of the courtroom, he told the media, all I got to say is I'm not guilty, and I will be back. I think he stole that from the Terminator. I think he did. That's very Terminator-esque. One reporter asked him if he was afraid to die, and Roger said, no, not at all.

I don't think I'm going to, neither. He's very confident. He's trying to be. But it was really Roger's attorney speaking after the sentence was handed down that grabbed my attention. He told the Tampa Bay Times that he wasn't surprised when his client showed no emotion after both the verdict and the sentencing. He said, quote, when you sit down to talk to him, you realize you are dealing with someone who doesn't think like you. thing. His range of emotions isn't normal. Clearly. That's his defense attorney. Yeah. Who probably spent, you know, quite a bit of time with him. Well, I mean, this guy worked with his client day

in, day out through this trial. So if anybody's going to know how he is, it's going to be the attorney. Gibbs, and I think it's true of a lot of killers. You know, we profile or talk about a lot of these people. it seems to me that many of them either they just don't have the emotions right or they're not able to process them the way that most of us do and we know right a lot of true psychopaths don't really have empathy they're not able to show those type of emotions especially if they had any type of head injury it has an impact i'll actually watch a ted talk about head injury and the impact to killers and the different aspects that it could have. Yeah.

A lot of which we've probably talked on some of our episodes. On June 22nd, 1999, Glenn Rogers was convicted of first-degree murder in the strangling death of Sandra Gallagher. So that was California. They made the decision that they were going to try him. And they did. and they got a conviction. He's never been tried for any of the other deaths, for which authorities believe he's responsible.

And I guess you could look at it a couple different ways. I don't know why California made the decision they did. I never saw the reasoning behind it. You could say, hey, this guy's on death row. Right. He's going to die. Why would we spend the money and resources to get a conviction? but a sentence that is less than death.

And even if we could get death, what do you have? Two death sentences? Right. You can only die once. On the flip side of that, you can make the argument that you're doing it for the victim. You're doing it for the victim's families. And that's valid to me. Sure.

But I see both sides of the corn. I think that's probably why the other states didn't proceed with anything because they knew death penalty here. if whatever reason something bizarre happens he's got life over here in California why would we ever spend the money and time and energy to push that through unless we were trying to make a statement to him and to give assistance or help to the family yeah and i think the other thing is you can look at you know there is no statute of limitations on murder yeah so if something were to happen and his death sentence got overturned his conviction got overturned they could take him to to trial anytime they wanted to.

Over the years, police have tried to link Glenn Rogers to many different unsolved homicides. I mean, they have his DNA on file, and I'm sure it's been checked many times over the years. As far as I could tell, you know, from the research that I did, there have been no other crimes directly linked to him. Yeah. definitively. We talked about it on Patreon, and he was a pretty solid person of interest for a little bit. Yeah, in the case that we did on, on Patreon, you're right. He, he lived, what, 25, 30 minutes south of my hometown, the case that we talked about. And it was around that time frame that it was before he started his murder spree. They definitely looked at him as that case dragged on. But I think in that

one, if I remember, they actually, they did check his DNA and it didn't match. Right. Anything that was collected at the crime scene. One interesting thing is I did find a newspaper article from 2017 that said a Glenn Edward Rogers was arrested in Pennsylvania on a DUI charge. Gives, it would really suck to have the same exact name as a horrible killer. Yeah, we really would, man. We're not even talking first and last. You have the same middle name as well. Yeah. It reminds me a lot of the Joel Rifkin, Seinfeld episode. Yeah. Yeah. sitting at the ball game in that episode. Yeah, I might be changing either my first name, my middle name.

I'd be changing something. I'd be changing that last name there for sure. Seinfeld episode, Rifkin. Why couldn't you be Harry Rifkin? That's a good point. You could be. I just would change Rifkin. As we wrap up this episode, right, I think no doubt.

Glenn Rogers was a monster. Technically, he still is because he's not been executed yet. The question I have is just how many murders did this man actually commit? Like we said, at one time, he said it was 70, 80. And then later he said, no, I didn't kill anyone. Yeah, well, we know he killed people. Absolutely. And we don't have time to talk about all the murders that he's been linked to.

But there is one very famous case that I think we have to talk about. Glenn Rogers has been linked to the murders of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ronald Goldman. Now, there's no hard evidence, but there are definitely some interesting ties here. A guy named Anthony Moli studies serial killers, and he spent a lot of time in person and corresponding with Glenn Rogers over the years. And I found this interview that he did with Dr. Catherine Ramsland, a lot of true crime. fans are very familiar with her work, Moli said that the DAs that were working the Simpson Goldman case,

they were aware of Glenn Rogers at the time. He was in the area when Nicole Simpson and Ronald Goldman were murdered. He was said to have lived about 20 minutes away from the murder scene. Fairly close. Fairly close. And I guess he was working for a painting company at the time. and that company that Rogers worked for reportedly did some estimates, and they did some work on the condos where Nicole Brown Simpson lived.

According to Moli, Rogers' last day at the painting company was just after the murders took place. And then you have Glenn's brother, Clay Rogers. He has said that Glenn told him that O.J. Simpson hired him to steal some diamond earrings from Nicole's place and to murder her if it came to it. Some big big words there. Yeah. And I think they ended up doing a documentary about this.

I can't remember what it's called. I haven't seen it. And I'm really not sure what to make of all of that. But you have to admit, it's a very interesting tidbit to talk about. We know that Rogers used a knife. Yeah. I think everyone. remembers the graphic details, the pictures of the Nicole Brown Simpson, Ronald Goldman murders.

They were horrific. Well, it was one of the most famous cases. Ever, yeah. Here's my thing. Because it is so famous, it seems to me that it's something that if he really was involved, he would have wanted to take credit for. I would think so. I mean, this is a guy that once said he killed 70, 80 people.

I think he would have come out and said that he was the killer. Yeah, he would have boasted about it for sure. If you're going to boast about 70 or 80 murders, wouldn't you toss in? Oh, by the way, one of them was Nicole. And especially now, he's been on death row for 20 plus years. Yeah. He's not getting off. He's not, they're not going to commute his sentence.

They're not going to, you know, he's not going to get a new trial. if any of that stuff would have happened, it would have already happened. Yeah, he's going to die in prison. He is. One way or the other. He's going to either die of natural causes or they're going to take his life. It seems like he would come out at this point and say, yeah, I was involved. Right.

Because of the infamy that he would gain from disclosing that. But, you know, like I said, he's currently awaiting execution on death row in Florida. So there's still time for Rogers to admit to other things. The one thing I will say is that very recently there have been a lot of family members that have been pressuring the Florida governor to make this execution happen sooner or later. There's a lot of people that are upset that it's taken this long. It hasn't been. It's been quite a long time. Yeah, I guess this guy has filed a number of appeals, which, you know, there's a natural.

appeal process anyway. Right. That usually drags out the execution date, you know, into the future. But he's filed a ton of appeals. It would take us a whole hour probably to go through all of them. But that's it, Gibbs. That's it for the story of Glenn Rogers. We have some voicemails. You want to check those out? Yes, check them out. Hey, Mike and Dibby. So this has been a long time coming. I've been with, oh, God, we all caught up to be able to listen to people who I know people. I really appreciate that. Yeah, that's a nice voicemail.

Very heartfelt voicemail and it makes us feel good. Yeah. I know you like to keep it real Gibbs. I like to keep it 100, as the kids say. Is that what the kids say now? Yeah, I think it means the same thing, but I don't know. I don't, I'm not going to use it because it probably means something bad. And I'm saying something.

That happens when I'm talking to my girls or something. Right. I think something means something. It's slang. And I think it means something. And they're like, dad, you can't say that. It means something totally different. different than what you're thinking. Yeah, I'm just going to say keep it real. Okay. I'm going to keep it

100 and hope that it doesn't mean anything bad. Okay. Hi, guys. My name is Shauna and totally Jim Ghiby. I was calling and I love your podcast. Listen to it at work all day long. Totally awesome. I was wondering if you guys wanted to check out. I'm from Columbus and there was a serial killer that's never been advertised. There were two ladies, Lisa Crow and Shauna Sauer. that were murdered. He was going down 70 and kind of hit by Buckeye Steele at 104 and killed lots of women. Left him like in dumpsters and right by Buckeye Steel. So anyway, love you guys and can't wait to hear the next one.

Keep your own time ticking. Take care. Bye. Well, it sounds like an interesting case. We're going to have to look into it. Yeah, we're to dive into it. Hey, Mike and Givie. My name's Cammy.

I'm from California. And I'm 21 years old. This is the voice sounds that I hear. are older than me. So here I am representing us young ones that are interested in true crime, I guess. I just wanted to say that I love your podcast. I binge it way too frequently. My roommate's think I'm kind of crazy and might kill them in their sleep, but, you know, we all have our things.

I just want to ask you a question. It's just interesting to me that you guys dedicate so much of your time and lives in researching true crime and making it your jobs. And I was just wondering how that came about. Was there something or something or someone that inspired you to do that, a story that you heard or something you saw that sparked that interest in you guys? And what made you decide to do it full time? Just wondering if you got support from your friends, if people thought it was drained

or cool, I guess. I don't know. Let's hear a story. Thanks so much. Keep your own time ticket. Well, Gibbs, I think we've talked about this maybe before. maybe on a Q&A or something like that. Sure.

At least for me, there was no one thing that I can point to as the reason why I got into true crime. Right. I can remember reading some books when I was younger, Helter Skelter and Cold Blood and some stuff like that. I also remember American justice, city confidential. There were some shows like A&E type shows that I just really started to get into. And I think that just kind of fed the hunger.

Right. For wanting to know more about these bad. people and why they do what they do. You know, as far as doing it full time, you don't. You're, you still have a real job. I do. The reason why I do it full time is because my company said, you know what, we don't really want you to work here any longer.

Right. So I was kind of forced into it. I could have tried to find another job, but I thought, you know what? I'm going to give it a go. Yep. So it's worked out. It's worked out good. And we're having fun doing it.

And we'll keep doing it as long as people listen. Keep listening. Hey guys, my name's Aubrey from Colorado, and I've been trying to get up to the courage to call for a while, but I was just listening through the back catalog of TCAT. I'm all caught up and unsolved, and I was listening to the Richard Ramirez episode, and I had to pause in the middle and call because, Givie, your story about the girl that you kissed and asked to marry you, my dad's parents owned a Benjamin Franklin store, and his mom was German. And so if you happened to be in northeastern Montana at the time, it might have been my auntie. But yeah, I just thought that was really funny. So I'll probably call again soon. So keep it up and keep your own time taken. Thanks, guys. Oh, that was the day.

I remember that day. But it wasn't in Montana. It was in Montana. We had a Ben Franklin store in the little town that I grew up in. And it was where my grandmother would buy all her supplies for quilting. Oh, yeah. She was a big quilter. Yeah.

So I would always walk there with her because they had candy and they had other stuff there. and I get a candy bar. It's good memories, but it was good memories, man. All right, buddy, we had mailbag. Yeah. One thing. We got some new magnets for the studio fridge.

Awesome. No name on the package again. Oh, okay. But they came from a company called DeCopolis Tulsa. So we got a Route 66 Tulsa magnet. Okay. Or Route 66, depending on how you say it.

And one that just says Oklahoma, but they're cool. Yeah. our fridge magnet collection is growing. It is. It looks good over there. It does. It's actually filling up pretty quickly.

All right, everyone. That is a wrap on another episode of True Crime all the time. So for Mike. And Gibby. Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.