True Crime All The Time - Glenna Duram

Episode Date: April 16, 2026

Marty and Glenna Duram were married for 11 years, and they shared a home in Sand Lake, Michigan. Glenna's favorite pastime was gambling, and it eventually spiraled out of control. She purchased $50 to $100 worth of tickets three to four times a week at one gas station. She also went to casinos once or twice a week, usually with Marty. In 2010, Glenna lost $75,000 at local casinos.Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss Glenna Duram. When Marty was murdered, the police naturally looked at Glenna. They ultimately discovered that she was concealing massive debts and an impending foreclosure she had been hiding from him. Months after the murder, family members came forward with evidence from her husband’s talking parrot, who appeared to have witnessed the shooting. You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 489 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Give me, how are you? Hey, I'm doing good. How about you? I'm doing great. Pause there. I didn't know if you were going to ask me or not.

I'm trying to be given that dramatic effect. Dramatic pause, they call it. All right, man. We're jumping right in. These Thursday episodes, you know, they're kind of different. The YouTube videos and the third. Thursday episode just kind of, you know, get to it. There's no shoutouts. There's no nothing. We don't mess around. We just get down. Yep. We're talking about Glenna Durham.

Glenda Durham murdered her husband to conceal dads and an impending foreclosure that she'd been hiding from him. Months after the murders, or the murder, I should say, family members came forward with evidence from her husband's talking parrot who appeared to have witnessed the shooting. Probably won a cracker. So I, you know, this is one that kind of jumped out at me is, right, you know, we try to do some strange ones every now and then. Now, a woman murdering her husband is not the strangest thing. That is not. We've covered that many times. Often it has to do with money. Yeah. Which this one does. But I don't believe we've ever talked about a talking parrot helping to solve the case. Not that I remember. And that's, I think. I think,

think what we're getting into here. So Marty and Glenna Durham were married for 11 years. They shared a home in San Lake, Michigan. Marty had three adult children from an earlier marriage in Glenna had too. And, you know, I think that's quite common, right? When you're talking about second or third marriages later in life, okay, people are often, you know, going into those marriages with children, sometimes grown children from previous relationships. I call that the Brady Bunch effect. Yeah. Yeah.

Marty was described as a family man who loved the outdoors. He was also a proud grandfather. And he was in a car accident in 1995 that jarred his brain and shattered the left side of his body. He was in a coma for a month after the accident. According to Glenna, he couldn't remember his first marriage or the births of his children. That can be rough. That's a very serious accident. And, you know, let's face it, you and I on this podcast have talked a lot about, you know, traumatic brain injuries. Right.

Because a lot of the serial killers that we've profiled have had a history of those. They have. And it, in a lot of cases, has played a factor maybe in what they've gone on to do. But, yeah, I don't know. You know, that concussion thing. And this is obviously probably way worse than two football players running into each other. Right. This is a, you know, a really bad car accident. But it's still that the brain moving around inside the skull, it can cause quite a bit of damage and long-lasting effect. It certainly can. His condition worsened in 2010. Glena began. earning almost $3,200, a little bit less a month for taking care of her husband. Marty received $1,100 a month in disability.

They split the money evenly. Well, that's interesting. She got paid to take care of her husband. Yeah. I mean, now the splitting of the money, that doesn't surprise me. I think a lot of married people, you know, pool their finances. Right. I do know some people who have completely separate finances.

So do I. My best friend in the world. He and his wife have been married almost 30 years now. Yeah. And ever since I've known them, they have kept separate checking accounts. But yet you're on his checking account with him, which I'm sure the wife thinks is strange. But hey, whatever. And, you know, it's, I ask them all the time.

How do you divvy it up? He's like, well, I pay for these bills and she pays for these bills. And I'm like, I don't know. My wife and I just throw everything into the pot. She takes it all. She does. And then I meet the Amazon guy at the door. That's right.

My wife order this time. The delivery driver. But even with all this going on, right, Marty was still able to spend time outdoors. His favorite pastime was hunting, which a lot of people are hunters. I'm not. I've never been a hunter. But, you know, I think it does kind of give you at least some idea of what his limitations were. He had them.

There's no doubt. But he could still go hunting. So that has to tell you something. A little bit. Yeah. You know, you're operating a gun. You're doing stuff like that. It was said that Glenna's favorite pastime was gambling.

Oh, that's a dangerous past time. It can be for a lot of people. Now, I'm not a gambler either. I'm a lot of things, but a hunter and a gamblers is not in my repertoire. I've been gambling. I've been to casinos. It's just not something that I really have ever found a lot of enjoyment in. Well, and be honest, last time we went to Vegas for CrimeCon a few years ago,

I'm going to be curious what happens this year. They did ask you to leave the casino because you are good at counting cards. I am. And they picked up on it pretty quick. Yeah. So we're seeing if they let you back in. No, but really what happened was my daughter had just turned 21. Yeah.

And I gave her $100 to gamble with. And I turned around and she's like, dad, my money's gone. Yeah. I'm like I didn't even get to she was she was at like one of the slot machines or so she's just like pressing buttons slow down honey slow down yeah so yeah maybe that's part of why I don't but clerk said several gas stations near the couple's home would report that glena bought lottery tickets often she purchased 50 to $100 worth of tickets three to four times a week at one of the gas station wow that's that's a problem yeah So a lot of people like scratchoffs. They do. And I bought some scratchoffs before. They can be fun.

But, you know, we just said how much money they were bringing in. And to me, gambling is kind of one of those disposable income type deals, right? The best thing is to set aside X amount of money and just assume you're going to lose that. And you got to be okay with that. You know how you can kind of, I want to say fix the scratch-off problem, but slow it down. Instead of having them being scratch-off, have them be lick-off. This is your gambling solution? Yeah, yeah.

That's how, you know, it would definitely slow the process down. Maybe, I guess it depends. Are they flavored? I mean, maybe it's just another reason to get them. Just make them all black licorice flavor. Oh, gosh, yeah, I hate that. Yeah. But it wasn't just scratch-offs, right?

She also went to casinos once or twice a week, usually with Marty. In 2010, Glena gambled $75,000 at local casinos according to the Detroit News. Well, that's more money than her $3,000 and some dollars that she was getting. And Marty's $1,100, even if you totaled them, it wouldn't total up $75,000 a year. during a 2012 trip to visit Marty's brother, Dan, and Montana, the couple couldn't travel anywhere without Glenna wanting to stop at a casino. It's an addiction. I think that's what, you know, all of this is painting because Dan said that he saw

Glenna put $100 bills into slot machines and she asked him not to tell Marty. Now, I just said, I gave my daughter $100. She put it in and before you know it was gone. Yeah. Not that hard, depending on what type of slots you're playing to lose hundreds and hundreds of dollars pretty quickly. Yeah. Doesn't take much time at all. And so, you know, these gambling adventures, I'll call them, eventually started causing

financial problems and how could they not? We just mentioned it, right? If you're spending way more than you're bringing in on gambling. Well, you've still got to pay for food and, you know, housing, utilities, all of that. How could you not have financial problems? Yeah. It was said the couple owed money to the IRS and a collections agency tried to repossess one of their cars. But it was Glenna, right, who managed the finances.

And she kept all of these debts hidden from Martin. And why would she do that? Well, I mean, look, that's not a good thing, right? I mean, because she knows if he finds out there's major issues coming down the road. Yeah, I mean, he's probably going to want to try to put a stop to that. He'll have to. Right. Yeah.

Because it's not sustainable. She told Marty she was making car payments, but she wasn't. Yeah. Marty was said to have been a pretty frugal person. He was known for turning lights off and keeping the heat low to save money. And that just kind of counter. I mean, you're trying to save everything you can't over here. But yet on this side, you know, your spouse is just, you know,

willy-nilly spending everything at the casinos. But you don't know. But you don't know it. You're just like, why aren't we making any headway? Why are we going the opposite direction? Well, I don't even know if he knows that part, right? Because he's not managing the finances. He probably only knows exactly what Glenna is telling him.

And I'm assuming that it's, hey, fine, everything's fine. We're good. Don't worry. Yeah. But, you know, being a frugal person or the things that were said about Marty really made me think of you. Yeah. I mean, you are, in some instances, pretty frugal. Can't be.

In others, very generous. Yeah. It's kind of strange the way you operate, but to each his own. Yeah. I mean, my wallet's right here. Or it's somewhere. Somewhere. Probably locked up in the vehicle.

It just doesn't get used. Yeah. But Glenn was also dealing with health problems around the time of the shooting. She had bronchitis and was going back and forth with her insurance for refusing to pay for x-rays of her back. Debt collectors were calling about her medical bills. She had also stopped taking medication for depression. So I feel like we have like a perfect storm, right, of things that are going on. I will say this about debt collectors for medical bills.

I feel like they are relentless. They are. I mean, if I get a medical bill in the mail today, tomorrow I'm probably going to get a call. Yeah. I'm wondering if when I'm going to pay it. And I tell them,

I literally just got it yesterday. Right. Maybe they expected me to pay it yesterday, I guess. but my rule is allow it to cycle through a few times make sure the insurance company I know that's your rule they should have done before I have to work and my my oldest is kind of the same way she said to me one time she threw away a bill or something I said honey you can't throw away those type of bills she's like if it's important they'll send it again I was like all right I don't think that's the way you should operate but you're an adult she's

like give me does I can't tell you what to do in April 2015 Marty received a call from his mother Lillian, who informed him that a legal notice in the local paper said his home was being foreclosed. And that is part of the foreclosure process, right? There's a legal notice that goes in the paper. Just so happened that his mother saw it and was like, hey, I wanted to let you know that the paper saying your home's about ready to be foreclosed. I mean, think about what you used to do for work. Yes. What I kind of still do for work.

How many times did we get those calls from people saying, I didn't even know this happened. Yeah. You know, my spouse didn't tell me. And some of the, we always thought that was BS, but some of those are probably true. Yeah.

Wasn't going to change anything, but what are you going to do? But I think as you can expect, right, his first thought was, well, I got to ask Glenna about this. She said it was a mistake and would call the bank. And I have a feeling that this was probably a cycle, right? He would get hints that maybe some things financially were not going great. Right. But every time he would bring it up to her, she probably had an answer. Many people do in these type of scenarios. It's a bank error or, you know, I'll take care of it. I'll fix it. And then that part kind of goes away. On April 28th, foreclosure papers were placed on the Durham. front door. And I think, all right, when you get to that point, I don't know how you're explaining that. I don't know how you're spinning that if you're Glenna. Yeah, at that point, I think you're

out of excuses. I mean, obviously, you could try to make some, but it's going to be really difficult. And I think in a lot of these types of cases, you know, people are doing something that they know is not sustainable. Yeah. They're getting away with it for a while. but they have to know in their hearts that at some point they're going to be exposed. Yeah. Right. It's all going to catch up to them. And when it does, that, that seems oftentimes to be when something bad happens.

And I think we're, you know, we're going to see it here too. After Marty's death, the executor of his estate would tell police the $700 monthly mortgage payments hadn't been paid for a year. Yeah, not surprised if they're that far into foreclosure. Yeah. Because it does take quite a while. It does. From missing first payment to ultimately getting to the point where, you know, you're, you're foreclosed on.

The couple's checking account had just $182 in it. They had $118 in a savings account and a safe in their home with $200 in change. So barely $500 in their. in their name. Yeah, exactly, 500. If I'm doing the math right. I don't want to brag and call it out to be exactly on 500. I was just trying to play it down a little bit.

Really? Yeah. I know you don't like to show off. I don't. I tried not to. Did you see my cup? Yeah, everybody has seen. Have you?

Yeah. Actually, one of the, the M is starting to wear off already. Is it? I have to order a new one. The couple's home was scheduled to be auctioned off by the sheriff's office on May 12, 2015, which turned out to be the day of the shooting. At 7.30 a.m. on May 12, neighbor Connie Ream was heading to work, and she heard two gunshots. Now, she wasn't alarmed because she knew Marty hunted in the area. Connie and her husband Keith

were good friends with the Durhams. Connie normally talked to or texted Glenna Daly. And, you know, we talk about this quite a bit. People hearing gunshot. Yeah. And, you know, it really does depend on where you live, what your situation is, how close your neighbors are. You know, if you live in New York City, hearing a gunshot is, you know, alarming. I would think. If you live in the Midwest and you're more rural, it may not be as alarming. Yeah, I think I could walk out my back door and fire my gun and nobody would ever say anything no no probably not call the police and um now it may be legal it may not be depending on whether you live i know for me here whether you live in the city or the township yeah if you live in the township apparently you can fire your gun where it whenever you want

not not at someone but you know what i'm saying but if you live in the city you can't but strangely when i walk around town in my k bar i get stopped it's a big knife yeah It's a scary knife. Yeah. But so I'm getting the kind of idea that, you know, maybe they were a little more rural. Their neighbors were used to him hunting on that land or they had a little bit of land or whatever it was. So gunshots weren't out of the ordinary. Just not surprised.

Later that day, Connie received a call from her husband who reported that Marty was not responding to his text. So after work, Connie went over to the Durham's house. She knocked on the doors and windows. No one appeared to be home except for the dog, who was barking. Later that evening, she sent Glena a text, asking if she and Marty were home. She received no response. Connie's husband, Keith, jokingly texted Glena. What have you done with Marty?

Oh, man. Well, it's going to turn out to be pretty prophetic, right? But it really sounds to me like these are some neighbors who were very close. Yeah. I mean, texting, calling daily. I don't even know some of my neighbor's names. I'm certainly not calling or texting them on a daily basis. I guarantee you you do not even know any of their names.

I know one of them. I know the guy across the street because he's very nice. He throws up. Okay. He throws up his hand. We sometimes meet halfway and talk for a little bit. One of those neighbors. Yeah, but for some reason, you know, I've lived here, I don't know, 23, 24 years.

Yeah. And I have not had a great track record of neighbors. It might be your opening line to them, you know. Which is what? High with a wave? If you want to call it that? The old people that, not old, they weren't old, but the people who used to live next door to me. Yeah.

I literally to the guy one time said, hey, threw up my hand, he gave me the finger and walked inside. I'm like, okay, what did I do? I guess we're not going to be buddies. And from then on, you know, that kind of tells you everything you need to know about what the relationship's going to be. Yeah. So we've got nobody answering. We got a dog barking. At 3.30 p.m., Connie decided to go back and check the house again.

This time, she noticed that the front door, was unlocked. She entered the home and saw the living room in disarray, which she has said was not normal. A broken lamp and several items were strewn across the living room and bedroom. There was a bowl of spaghetti and garlic bread on the kitchen table as if someone's meal was interrupted. And I think if you're that close, you've been in the house a lot. You know what kind of housekeepers they are. So you know whether the house looks like, you know, it normally does or it doesn't. In this case, it didn't look normal.

Well, who in their right mind leaves a full bowl of skeedy with some garlic bread uneaten? Especially if it's mom's spaghetti. They are near Detroit. So that was actually a pretty good reference because Eminem was, you know, on 8 Mile. You didn't know I would get that, though, did you? I wasn't too sure. The dog appeared to have been left alone for hours,

but possibly even days. There was feces near the back door. Connie entered the bedroom and stepped over some blankets on the floor, then found Marty on the floor in a pool of blood. Glenna was lying under the blankets. She was pale and her hair was matted in blood. I mean, I don't even know how you can imagine. imagine walking into this scene.

Yeah. These are your neighbors, apparently friends, they were close to. And I mean, it appears to be a pretty horrific crime scene. It would be very difficult to process. Yeah. So Connie believed that both of them were dead and she ran to a nearby house for help. She returned with three firemen who were responding to an incident nearby. when she re-entered the room,

Connie thought Glenna's head was in a slightly different position. But she didn't say anything because she wasn't sure. She thought it could just be her imagination. Yeah. So I think, you know, if you just kind of break it down, right,

she knew without a doubt that, you know, Marty's dead. He's lying in a pool of blood. But the description she gave of Glenna, you know, pale. matted blood in her hair,

you would look at that, she's not moving. You would think, oh my gosh, they're both dead. Right. But now she comes back and she's like,

oh, her head seems to have moved. But I could be imagining that. I'm not going to point it out. I mean, she probably is going through some shock at that moment too. Yeah,

some trauma. It's got to be a traumatic event, for sure. So, you know, she has to think about, what did I really see when I first came

And what do I want to say? Yeah. Right. The firefighters were in the home for a short time before they made the decision to back out of the residence because it appeared to be a crime scene. According to police reports, the victims also appeared to be dead. And I can definitely see how they would make that assumption. And it doesn't appear to be accidental that you have two people dead, right? Yeah, it's not going to be accidental.

When police arrived, Connie assisted by dealing with the couple's dog who had curled up next to Marty and was growling. Yeah. And you hear that, right? You hear about that dogs trying to protect their, their owners or not wanting to leave their owner's side after they die. Yeah. And it's sad. It is that number one, the person has died. But then number two, it's sad that the dog is like.

like things that, you know, they have to try to protect them or I don't know if they know that the person is dead. I don't really know what dogs are thinking in that situation, but it's very sad. It is sad. When Connie heard an officer speak to Glenna, she turned in that direction and was shocked to see her sit upright. Oh. So we just mentioned, right, shock, a little bit of trauma or a lot of trauma, traumatic situation. Okay, now all of a sudden, this person who you thought was dead is sitting upright, and that's got to be a different kind of shock. Yeah, yeah, and I think it shocked her and probably the firefighters and everybody else.

Because they thought she was dead as well. Yeah. Marty was confirmed dead at the scene from multiple gunshot wounds, but Glena had survived a gunshot wound behind the right ear. It took an hour for an officer to check her pulse to confirm if she was alive or dead. So that tells me they thought that she was dead too. Yeah. Upon, you know, arriving at the scene if it took an hour for them to even confirm.

Like, I don't know. She's dead. No, she's not. Yes, she is. No, she's not. Well, obviously, once they did confirm, then that's when she must have sat up and because they're talking to her at that point. point, Michigan State police trooper Sergeant Gary Wilson was trying to coax the couple's growling dog outside when he thought he saw Glena breathing.

He went to check her pulse. As soon as he touched her, her eyes flew open and her body jerked. I'm getting freaked out just thinking about. I mean, this is like something that you might see in some type of scary movie. Well, you got to wonder, is it to say, you know, like a muscle memory reaction or something, you know, when people die sometimes their bodies move, right? I'm not sure that muscle memory is the correct term for that. There's probably not.

I know what you're saying. There is movement in certain muscles even after death. Some type of reaction. But I don't know if, you know, eyes opening is one of those muscle movements. Apparently, she asked the officer, what are you doing? Okay. Yeah. Right now I'm about ready to go clean out.

my jockey shorts because you just scared do you know what out of me. Because I kind of thought you were dead. And it was said that she was confused. She was combative. Sergeant Wilson couldn't tell how severely injured she was because she wouldn't stop moving. And it was said that she continued to be combative during the ambulance ride to the hospital. She asked multiple times as she was being restrained. Why are you doing this, Marty?

Okay, so she definitely was confused. Or she was putting on a show. Or putting on a show. There's really only, you know, one or two or a couple of options there. She also complained that someone was stepping on her hair as she was being carried out of her home. A neurosurgeon found two bullet wounds on the right side of her skull that were non-lethal and could possibly result in no loss of consciousness. allowing her to be ambulatory.

Okay. So, I mean, this is such a strange scenario. It is. You know, she's acting as though, well, she's acting, let's be honest, like she wasn't even alive, right, at the time people were in there. And then when she does kind of wake up, for the lack of a better term, it's like she doesn't know what's going on. She thinks it's Marty.

Yeah. She thinks somebody's stepping on her hair. I mean, either she's going through this or she's really putting on a pretty good show. Yeah. Yeah. Now, let's talk about these two bullet wounds, right? Non-lethal. And the neurosurgeon is saying most likely wouldn't even result in the loss of consciousness.

So these really had to be like grazers. Right. Pretty minimal. Yeah. When police first tried to talk to Glenn at the high. hospital, she yelled out Marty's name. Later, she only gave brief responses and claimed she didn't know what happened. An autopsy determined that Marty was shot three times at close range. Two more shots were fired into his back and forearm. He had some hairs that were found in his right

hand. So I think first off, I think police have to believe that this was some type of what, home invasion? An intruder came in, shot Marty, shot Glenna. Maybe she passed out. Yeah, think at first look, that's the direction you would go. Investigators searched the house and found bloodstains on the couch and bullets in the living room. There were several fired cartridge casings on the bed and one unfired cartridge on the bedroom floor was a key to Marty's gun safe. a 22 caliber Ruger revolver, which was determined to be the murder weapon, was found under a love seat in the living room. But investigators also found a pillow with holes in it and Glennon Marty's cell phones. So, I mean, all right, now what do you think? You know, for me, it's,

Does somebody come in, somehow get Marty's keys to the safe? Yeah. Get out a 22 caliber gun and shoot them both. And is somebody using a pillow possibly to muffle the sounds? Or not to look at the person's face. Yeah, possibly. But would an intruder do that? No, I think the intruder would do what you said.

They would use it to muffle the sound. Yeah. And then what do you make? they don't take cell phones it doesn't sound like at least from what we know there was anything really taken from the house so you got to wonder why somebody would do this well and i think if um you were an intruder and you used the gun you found there as the murder weapon why would you leave it behind yeah that's that's good thing or man's good thinking yeah yes but I don't know. I don't know. Maybe they're wearing gloves. Maybe.

I mean, right now, there's a, there's a number of different theories. I think that you can take a look at. But those closest to the couple said that they thought it was unlikely that a random intruder attacked the couple. Marty was said to have been very wary of strangers. And he always kept the doors locked and deadbolt. Marty and Glenna were private people. They didn't have a ton of friends. They loved each other, but they did have some rough patches. Everybody goes through some rough patches now and then. They do. I would say some people have rougher patches than others. True. If that makes sense. And some people, you know, they have great years for a while and then things get rough. Some people, you know, it can be rough and then

thing smoothed out as the marriage goes on. Every marriage is a little different. But one of the jokes that Glena frequently made was that she was waiting for Marty to die or she was going to kill him so she could collect his money and possessions. When she said this in front of Marty, he would laugh. It didn't seem to bother him. You know, it probably was funny to them. To them being who? to them being, you know, her and Marty thinking that they're just joking about it. So as the friends hearing it, they're thinking, oh, they're just joking. Oh, yeah, yeah, to outsiders. Yeah.

Until it actually happens. Yeah. And then you're like, hmm. Well, even to Marty, I can understand, right? Because he's probably not thinking that my wife would ever actually hurt me. Yeah, you just wouldn't. I mean, if your wife joked around and said something like that to you, if I was around, I would laugh. Like, yeah.

Oh, yeah, right. Yeah. Been married 30 years. I mean, if she wanted to, she could have killed me at any time. Just with her food. Sorry. She's come close a few times. Sorry.

I'll pay for that one. And not on purpose. I'm going to make sure she listens to that during the editing. Relatives told investigators that the couple's main source of income were payments Glennon received from the state and her husband's supplemental security. income. So, I mean, they didn't work, right? Marty wasn't able to work. Glennah didn't work because I think she had to take care of Marty. Yeah. So they were, you know, being supported by state funds or federal funds, one of the two. According to a police report

of an interview with a relative, Glennah indicated that Marty was a pain to take care of. And one of these days she was going to kill him. So she's joking about it to neighbors and even in front of Marty. And then she's also saying that very same thing to relatives is a lot, right? It is. I'm going to kill him. I mean, the problem is, I understand, you know, when somebody goes through that type of event and now you have to take care of them.

Because, you know, when you get married, you sign up for. Better or for worse. Or till death do us part. Or till death do you apart. So there you go. Do they even say that stuff anymore? I don't know. It's been a long time since I've...

Yeah, for me, 30 years. I have no idea what they say. Yeah. My oldest daughter is getting married in a couple months, so we'll see what they say there. Yeah. A lot of times today, they come up with their own vows. Mm-hmm. You know, like...

That might not be great in every scenario. Probably not. According to Marty's daughter, he wore a leg brace and could walk, but he needed Glenna to drive him to appointments. His disability hindered him more as he aged, but he still enjoyed hunting. And let's face it, we're all hindered more as we hate. That's true. Regardless of what type of disability you might have, I feel very hindered sometimes when I wake up in the morning. takes you a little bit of time to get going.

Absolutely. Marty kept about 20 long guns and several handguns in a large safe in the home. Some of those he was holding for his father. So, you know, what that tells me is 20 long guns and then just a few handguns, that kind of screams out you're a hunter. Absolutely. Because you got a ton of long guns. Family and neighbors also noted that the home was in foreclosure.

and that the couple frequented casinos. Marty's mother, Lillian, said he was unaware he was in foreclosure until she notified him about the newspaper listing. So, you know, we talked about some of this stuff already, but now it's like being found out by the authorities as they're doing the investigation. And you have to think with every kind of little nugget, right, that they're uncovering, it has to start leading them to believe that, you know, maybe Glennah had something to do with this. Yeah, I mean, when you think about the foreclosure action, look at the finances, I mean, you have to kind of lean into that direction somewhat.

Yeah, you got to think it's at least a possibility, or it's got to be ruled out, right, at the very least. The day after Marty was found, his three children used a credit card to pick the lock and search the home. on the living room floor they found an envelope labeled personal and jane warringa who is glena's mother they opened the sealed envelope and found three more envelopes addressed to glenna's two children and her ex-husband bob norman was asked to take care of their kids in the letters addressed to her children glena asked for forgiveness she wrote per the detroit news i'm sorry but I love you. And so sorry, I've been a disappointment to you these last 12 years or so. Please forgive me. You're one of the best things I ever did. Love Mom.

All right. What do you think if you're the kids reading this? Yeah, sounds like she met to take her life. That sounds to me like a suicide letter. Yeah. It really does. Marty's children found ripped up foreclosure papers among Glenna's belongings. They speculated that the issue may have led to a fight that escalated.

Marty's children called the police to report what they found. Now, I found this very strange, right? Because you have this, what appears to be, to me, a murder scene. At the very least, a crime scene. But to me, it's a murder scene. and okay did they not search the house how did they not find this this envelope also did they not seal up the crime scene i mean what's going on here because they're just able to use a credit card get back in there and find something that police didn't know about it seems a little strange

it does that they that they were able to find these things i mean i mean we've all used credit cards to break into places so that's you know not that strange to hear but it is to me i've never done it Oh, yeah. First of all, I don't want to break my credit cards. Membership card, credit card. I'm just assuming you have specialized tools. Oh, have those. Sometimes it's just easy to use that plastic card, you know,

don't have to break out those special tools. So, you know, the kids call the police, say, hey, we found these envelopes. Here's what they said. But they didn't mention that they found cash in the couple's sake. They found $225 in an envelope labeled mount. and $1,200 in an envelope labeled Wave Runner. Okay.

Mount, maybe because he was going to mount one of his hunting trophies? Yeah, possible. I would think more maybe a mount for a new scope or... Oh, that's true. Something like that. Yeah. But to me, these are saving envelope. Yeah.

Because my wife used to do this very same thing. Keep those envelopes and fill and fold. She would have multiple envelopes. and she'd write on them for what she wanted to save up for what we needed to save up for. This was before, you know, a lot of banks started allowing you to have like sub accounts. Yeah, yeah. Because now she has a bunch of different accounts and she labels them whatever. Yeah, this is a Mike's not supposed to know about.

The other one Mike's not supposed to know about. Yeah. And ones for the kids is tuition. Yeah. But, you know, anytime I see something like this, though, when you go back to like an intruder theory, well, we know someone was in the safe. Right. Whoever killed Marty was in the safe. Yeah.

We know they didn't take cell phones. But here's like $1,400 just sitting in a couple of envelopes. Is an intruder not going to see those or at least look in those envelopes and take that money? You would think they would. Yeah. Why wouldn't they? Yeah, I can't imagine why they wouldn't. Detective Sergeant Scott Reeves learned about the missing money from Glynis side of the family.

Marty's children admitted to taking it. When asked why they hadn't told the police earlier, they said the police hadn't asked. Which I understand. They're saying, if the police would ask, we would have told them, maybe. But why wouldn't you just say it right out from the very beginning? Because it could make a difference in how the kids. cases looked at. It could, but I also get it, right? You want that money. And I go back to my other point, which is the police have already been in there. Yeah. How did they not find it? How did they

not find these other envelopes, right? Now, maybe they were set to come back and do a more thorough search. But if that was the case, then you would think that the crime scene would have been more sealed. I get it the door was locked, but... Yeah, maybe more secured or had an officer on duty. Somehow. Now, if they did do a complete search, it obviously wasn't a very thorough. While the police were investigating the deaths, they were contacted by Fran Phelan, the wife of one of Marty's cousins, in a meeting with police the week after the shooting.

Fran said she did psychic readings. She began reading from a notebook and told trooper Barry Wolf, it was important to look under the couch or love seat of the Durham home. She also said Marty and Glena were right-handed and their hands were important to the investigation. And I've talked about psychics. You know how I feel about psychics. Yeah. But, okay, I don't know how she's coming up with this, you know, why it's important to look under the couch. now them being right-handed you don't have to be a psychic to know that right she's a cousin

so i mean she's not a person who doesn't know them's not related to them yeah um you could also make an argument that the the hand whether a person is right-hand or left-handed is important to an investigation where shooting is involved true because you're trying to figure out if the suspect is right-hand or left-handed. And we mention it, right? The murder weapon was found under the love seat and Marty was clutching a clump of hair in his hand. Fran was then asked where she was at the time of the shootings. She provided an alibi that she was with her daughter. She also expressed her belief in Glenna's innocence. And I understand why they would want an alibi from her. You are basically giving information that possibly you shouldn't have known. Now, maybe she really is psychic. I don't know,

but you could also be the killer. Very true. And that's how you know that that information. During probate hearings where Glenn and Marty's children fought over his possessions, Fran testified on Glenn's behalf. And these hearings, it was said, really caused a lot of friction between the two families. They can. And they, they, they, often can, right? You have someone who dies. There are people who want possessions, whether it's out of greed or I think oftentimes it's just out of they've lost their loved ones and they want certain things that remind them or have sentimental value. Kind of like self-preservation. I don't understand that at all. How is that? How is wanting something that's sentimental self-preservation?

Well, I mean, preservation. Let me backtrack. Of that, those things for yourself. That's what you mean by self preserving them for yourself? Did I mention? Self preservation.

Okay. I mean, I understand what you're saying now. You want what you want. Self-prevent. Would that have been the quicker way to say? I guess. I don't know.

After a probate hearing in July, 2015, Marty's brother, Dan Durham wrote to Franz, husband, Scott, you should keep a loaded gun at your side because who knows what can happen. Look what happened to Marty. Yeah. Okay. I mean, that's, to me, it's a, it's a threat. Now, you could say, I think the person making it could make an argument. No, it's not a threat. I was just saying, hey, you know, you should be safe. Look what happened to Marty. But to me, I'm taking that is a threat. Yeah.

After a probate hearing in October 2015, an arrow was left at France home with the message your next written on it. Okay. Now, if that's not a threat, I don't know what is. But definitely seems like a threat. Pretty hard to make any other reasonable conclusion, right? Out of that one. Police did not provide updates on Glenn's condition, but it was later reported that her

injuries required months of rehabilitation. Okay. So, you know, we kind of talked about maybe they were grazing type wounds, but now you find out that, okay, she had to go through months of rehabilitation. They might have been quite a bit more serious than them first thought. Although she wasn't available for questioning, they were looking at her as a suspect. Her phone data showed that from three 32 to 448 a.m. on May 12, 2015, her phone was used five times to look up information about Ruger guns. And we've already said, right, the gun in his safe, the gun that was used, was a 22 Ruger. The searches included Ruger safety announcements, Ruger inside and out. Ruger Safety Blue Book, Ruger safety announcements, again, apparently, at 3.28 a.m. on May 12, Glena received a.m. her mother, responding to the earlier message. At 448,

Glenda's phone sent a text to her mother that said, love you, sorry. Those are going to get people's attention. Well, they are, but normally not at 448 in the morning, unless you're an early riser. Yeah. Most people don't stay up that late. I mean, if my phone goes off, I'm going to hear it. You don't put your phone like on silent at night? No, because what if like one of my kids needs me?

I want to be able to pick the phone up and be like, what do you need? Yeah. I have a, I think I have something where I'm on silent, but people, contacts that I have, if they call, it'll ring through. I think there is something like that. Yeah. I don't want to, like every email. email and message. Yeah, I don't hear.

That does somehow. Okay. During sleeping hours. Because I would never sleep. Yeah. It would just be a constant, you know, barrage. But, you know, these texts, right, love you, sorry. Okay, well, you could take that a couple of different ways.

What are you sorry about? That you didn't get back to me, maybe. That's true. As quickly as you wanted to. or knowing what we know was in the letters, is it a little more than that? Yeah, but would you think that right away if you saw this?

I don't know. Not if you didn't have the context. Yeah. No, not if you didn't have the context. Nine seconds later, the phone accessed a web page titled Ruger New Model Single Six, Single Action Revolver. And then there was no further web activity or outgoing texts after 455.

am on May 12. So, I mean, I think if you're the police and you get this information, what are you making of it? And for me, it's that, okay, maybe she didn't know a lot about this Ruger 22 and she was looking some information up, but she obviously was involved in this shooting. Yeah, I think you'd have to come away with that piece. It's not like she was shot and then somehow used the phone to look up. information on the gun she was shot with. Right. I mean, this had to have happened before she was shot,

and you would think before Marty was shot as well. In June 2015, Glennah's mother told the police that her last memory was three days before she was found. And that can happen. They can. I don't know how common it is, but things like that do happen where people lose. periods of time. You just hope that it was a good memory. What? The last time. The last memory you have,

you hope it's a good memory. Oh, the one that was three days prior? Yeah. I don't know why. It's not like 51st dates. It's not like every day is going to be that memory or Groundhog day.

Okay. Yeah, I got you. You're going to have new memories moving forward. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I don't know. You get me sometimes or you,

you lose i'm lost well i mean that's understandable because i'm not operating at this mental level i can't stay with you yeah they get it though you know we'll see they'll let me know if they do or not at least somebody out there kids they probably will say they do because they're you know team givie yeah i understand exactly what givy's saying glena's mother also said that that apology text that Glenna sent was apologizing for failing to, you know, follow through on some earlier plans and losing money at the casino. So we talked about it being almost like maybe linked to the letters. Yeah.

Which all kind of appeared to be, I guess, suicide letters. I don't know how else to say it, but Glennna's mother said, no, that's, you know, it was this. It wasn't, you know, anything to do with that. Glenna was interviewed by state police in October 2015 with her mother present. She claimed she didn't recall writing the letters found in her home, but they sounded like things she had written in the past for her children's birthdays. She also said that if she had written anything to her ex-husband, it would have been to kiss my ass.

This is according to the Detroit news. Now they left out the ass part. I'm filling that in, but okay. Kiss my ass. Why would you tell the police that? I don't know. Now, she did maintain that she would never kill Marty because, quote, he was all I had. And I'd be better off divorcing him and leaving him.

Now, you could make that argument depending on life insurance, right? Which we haven't talked about yet. But if there's a lot of life insurance, then maybe you're not better of divorcing. Maybe not. Because let's not forget, right? The only money she was bringing in was for taking care of him. Yeah, that $3,000 some dollars to take care of him every month. So what happens in a divorce settlement, he doesn't have a lot of money coming in.

It's not like she's going to get some huge alimony. or anything like that. And she's probably not going to be taking care of him at that point anymore. Yes. So she's not going to get that money. So you got to kind of take that with a grain of salt. She said they also had plans for the future, like a Memorial Day vacation. Glenda expressed her wish that she had died so that they could be together.

She was also questioned about her cell phone search history. She responded that she didn't look up any information on the gun. And if she was on her phone, she would have been playing games online. Okay. Yeah. So who did it? The killer? Somebody had to do it.

The killer grabbed her phone and looked up information about this gun. Possible? Yeah. Maybe possible. The detective told her, police couldn't identify any other possibilities for what could have happened. Glinda responded with, I'm thinking you already got me guilty. And I wouldn't have hurt him.

In January 2016, Newego County prosecutor Robert Springstead announced his office was nearing the final review of the case. In an interview with the Grand Rapids Press, Marty's daughter Jessica revealed that she formed an opinion about what happened soon after her body or her father's body was found. And she found three suicide letters signed by Glenna. And I get that because that's the same kind of thinking that. I had. Okay. When we were talking about the details of what was found. Yeah.

You know, it did seem to me to be that either Glena shot Marty and tried to end her life, which is why she wrote the letters, or she shot Marty and then made it seem as though an intruder had shot her too. It was really, to me, only two variations. Yeah. Either she did it this way or she did it this way to throw people off. Yes.

The problem with the second one is then why write the letters? To me there would be no reason to write the letters. It's true. So I'm leaning based on the evidence more towards the she tried to end her life

but was unsuccessful. By May 2016, no arrest. had been made. Marty's side of the family was frustrated and they wanted Glenna arrested. I don't think there's any doubt, right, that they thought she was responsible. During the investigation, several people asked the police whether they had interviewed Marty's parrot. And I know we're talking about death. We're talking about, you know, possible murder here. But there's no way that that's not humorous. The parrot part. Yeah. I chuckled right when you said. at it, you know. And I, I get it. You know, if you're a police officer, if you're a detective,

and a family member calls up or they stop in and they say, have you interviewed Marty's parent, parrot? I almost said parent, because that sounds more logical. Yeah. It'd be hard to keep a straight face, I would think. I wonder if you hypnotized. If you hypnotized the parrot. So Marty had an African gray parrot named Bud, who was said to be. You know, intelligent with a good memory. And some of them are just extremely intelligent. I've seen a lot of videos on YouTube. Some may be real. Some may be AI. I can't tell half the time. You have that problem right now with AI. I do. I do not like AI because some of the things that I think are really cool. I show my daughter and she's like, no, that's not real. That's not real. And then I'm disappointed

because I thought it was really cool. Marty's ex-wife, Christina Keller, took ownership of butt after his death because she had him during their marriage. She reported that Bud was repeated, repeating things like, don't effing shoot in Marty's voice. Oh. So, you know, some parents can mimic.

They can. Christina took a video of the parrot saying things like, shut up, get your blank over here, and don't blanking shoot. Effing. Yeah. it's okay you know where is the parrot getting this from either the parrot watches a lot of movies

or the parrot was a witness to what happened to marty yeah well if you're the defense team you're gonna really lean heavy on they let the TV on all the time yeah but if he really is kind of mimicking Marty's voice then you would have to say right the process prosecution's going to lean into that. Yeah, they guys, they should. The parrot's voice changed back and forth. It was said as it was if he, as if he was imitating an argument between Marty and someone else. Gibbs, you and I have done a lot of cases.

I've never heard of this, ever. Now, I've never had a parrot. I know they're amazing birds. They can do a lot of things. Christina was alarmed, but she didn't tell. anyone outside the family for months. And I kind of understand that because how do you even bring that up? It'd be a tough conversation to start, but I kind of think you should.

Yeah, I get that you should, but how do you? Because, I mean, you could be laughed at. You could be wrong. And then you could be pointing at the finger at somebody who's potentially innocent. True. The family sent the video to W.O.O. TV in the spring of 2016, which garnered international attention. And it was just three weeks later, on June 24, 2016, authorities announced that

Glennon had been charged with murder. Prosecutor Robert Springstead said police suspected Glenn early on, but there were things that needed to be cleared up before pursuing charges. Prosecutors argued that Glennon killed Marty in a botched murder suicide. because of financial problems exacerbated by her gambling. And again, that's what I initially kind of thought based on the evidence. You know, to me, having seen nothing in the reporting about life insurance, it didn't seem like this was for like the gain of money, right?

She wasn't going to gain money from Marty's death. It was more like she had painted herself into a corner. Yeah. And things had gotten so bad that she was about ready to be exposed. And Marty was going to find out. And she just didn't know what to do where she couldn't live with that is the way that it seemed to me. On July 19, 2017, Glenda Durham was found guilty of first degree murder and a felony firearm charge. She was sentenced to life in prison on August 28, 2017.

So, I mean, as we wrap this one up, Gibbs, I mean, this is a case where you have a talking parrot. Yeah. Who appears to have been a witness to a murder. Yeah. And ultimately, I think it goes a long way in her being charged because she's not charged until after Christina comes forward with this video. right of the parrot. Really hoping the parrot's name was Polly, but it wasn't. No, it was Bud, which to me is a better name.

I kind of like the Bud name too. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know why. While the video of the parrot was not directly used to secure a conviction, it was evident that the animal witnessed and remembered the death of his owner. And I think it definitely further cemented the family's kind of thoughts that, Glenna was involved. So I, you know, it's, it's such a strange case. Not that a wife would kill

her husband. I mean, we have done plenty of those. Not that it would be done for some financial reason. Now, normally it's financial gain. Absolutely. That we're talking about in this case, it's more of financial ruin that she doesn't want to be exposed, but there's no way around it. Right. And so she's going to kill Marty. She's going to shoot her and kill herself. And then she's not going to have to deal with it, I guess, is it was her thinking. What it seems like.

That's what it seems like. But, you know, to have this kind of talking parrot be a part of the case, any part, any type of part of this case. It's just fascinating to me. That, you know, it's quite a while after the murder. and this parrot is having a conversation between two people. One of them apparently sounds like Marty. Yeah. And I'm just blown away by that.

I wonder, you know, if the parrot has any PTSD? Yeah. I mean, certainly. Probably. Yeah. Probably. That coupled with like the loss of his owner. Right.

I'm sure they go hand in hand, but just a strange, fascinating case. But that's it for our episode on Glenna Durham. You got anything else? No. All right. That's it for another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.