True Crime All The Time - Hadden Clark

Episode Date: June 26, 2017

Hadden Clark would become known as the cross-dressing cannibal. His acts are so despicable that they are difficult to believe and he got away with them for many years. But Hadden was not the only person in his family to commit such terrible acts.Join Mike and Gibby as they go through in detail the childhood of Hadden Clark. What did his mother and father do to him and how may that have affected him in later years? They dive into the details of Clark's murders, how he was able to escape suspicion, and the strange things that would happen after he was ultimately caught.Visit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact and merchandise information. Follow us on all of our social media platforms. Rate/review us where you can and help spread the word of the show to your family and friends.You can help support the show financially for as little as $2 a month by going to patreon.com/truecrimeallthetime. An Emash Digital ProductionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

and welcome to episode 33 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime Mike Gibson, aka Ghibi. Gibby, what is going on? Just living the urban cowboy dream. And assless chaps. Yeah. Well, what are you going to do?

There's a visual. With my cable. You, that's what I always say. Yeah. As long as I got my cabar nearby. That's all you need. That's right. Where are you going to put them in those assless chaps, though?

That's the question. I'm just trying to see if it's the right look for CrimeCon 2018 in Nashville. You're just checking out looks for next year? Yep. Just trying to get myself ready. So, Ghibi, we got a bunch of voicemails today. You put out the call for voicemails and people responded, definitely. So let's just jump right in.

Hi, my name is Kristen, and I'm actually calling from Canada. I am listening to the Robert Pickson episode, and you guys were talking about Vancouver. and about how they were talking about how it's such a bad area. And I thought I would call and give you guys a little information on it. There's actually been documentaries and everything made about East Vancouver. There's a street called Hastings, and it is unlike anything you've ever seen. I mean, there's people laying all over the street sticking needles in any place that they can. I mean, I've seen people sticking needles behind other people's gears,

and in between their toes. It doesn't matter what time of the day you go down there. There are such an accumulation of homeless people, drug addicts, prosecutes. I mean, it's absolutely unlike anything you've ever seen. So Gibbs, I think, like you said, in the Picton episode, book your travel plans now. Yeah, road trip.

So now people know if they're going to East Vancouver, try to get a hotel right on Hastings Street. Yeah. Because that sounds like the place you want to be. If you're into people watching. Awesome, though, that Kristen sent that voicemail because she's listening to Picton. She's familiar with the area. And she can shed a little bit of light on it.

But it does sound like a horrible, horrible, concentrated area. Yeah. It's actually, I mean, it's sad. You know, the hear that that goes on. You know, I hate to hear all that. But it basically backs up what we talked about. Yeah, all the research we did for Robert Picton said pretty much just that. I mean, it's a horrible concentrated area of drug abuse and prostitution, you name it.

All right, let's get number two going. Hey, guys. My name is Amanda. I live in Pigram, Tennessee, about 15 minutes left of Nashville. I am so excited at CrimeCon is coming to Nashville next year. I will definitely be there. I love the interaction that you guys give on Facebook. It's unlike almost any other podcast.

I think that's really great. I listen to you guys every just about every day. I find an old episode to listen to if there's not a new one out or an old episode to relisten to while I'm feeding chickens at work. About 200 chickens. You can hear them probably in the background. That's what I'm doing right now. Thank you for your hard.

work. I love the podcast and keep it up. Thank you. Love that from Amanda. And I can hear the chickens in the back. Yeah, I did. And I love me some chicken. I like chicken too. Yeah. All right. Number three, Gibbs. Last one. Grab a beer and pull up a deck chair. Hi, guys. This is Cambo from True Crime Island. You're doing a great job and I hope to see you next year at CrimeCom. So don't forget to delete your browser history, guys, and keep up the good work. So that is Cambo Ford. If you don't know and haven't checked out True Crime Island, give it a listen.

We love Cambo. We interact with him all the time on social media. So big shout out. Cambo, thanks for leaving us a voicemail. Absolutely. And we will get our deck chairs and get our beer. All right, Gibbs. Let's jump to Patreon.

We got new supporters. We have Christine Black. And Christine, we actually hung out with and drank beers with at CrimeCon. We did. Yeah. Her and her boyfriend. Yep. Awesome people.

Incredible. So we appreciate that. Christine McConnell's been with us for a long time. She just upgraded to the highest patronage, if I'm saying that word, right. So we appreciate that. Karna Grenier is supporting us at our highest level. And we have Valerie, no last name. But Valerie, if you're listening, thank you, thank you.

Yeah. Leanne Abe, we appreciate you, Kayla Wallace, and Kayla's pretty active on social media. She is. And I recognize that name. We talk to her a lot. And then we have Teneal Pat, who's also supporting us at our highest level. So big shout out, big thanks to everybody. Gibbs, like you and I say, this financial support is awesome.

doesn't matter how much anybody can give. It just means the world that somebody thinks what we're doing is worth supporting. Yeah, absolutely. It makes us feel great, just like it does when people say on social media, hey, I love the show, keep up the great work. I mean, all of that, it just pumps us up and keeps us going. And so that's the thing. I mean, if you can support us financially, that's great.

If you can, if not, support us on social media. There's all kinds of different ways. Spread the word. Yeah, share just by telling your coworkers, hey, check out this podcast. You know, if you like it, there's bound to be some of your friends that are going to like it too. We appreciate all the support we get and we can't say it enough. So the last thing, going to say, jump over, check out true crime all time unsolved. We're doing an episode that Gibbs has been.

been wanting to do from almost the inception of Unsolved, and that's Charlie Chopoff. And there's really no description needed. You can kind of imagine what it's about. Check that out. All right, Gibbs. Are you ready to talk about Haddon Clark? I am. This guy is a fascinating case study.

He's not a well-known name. I don't believe. He's obviously not a Bundy, a Dommer, or anything like that. but his nickname really jumped out at me. The cross-dressing cannibal. That says a lot. Yeah, I mean, that alone should peak anyone's interest that's into true crime. So early life on Haddon Clark, and it's a little bit different than some of the other

ones that we do, but then you're going to have some of the same. So Haddon was born in April of 51, and he was born in, Troy Connecticut. He was the second of four children. But the thing about the Clarks is they were actually a pretty affluent family. So he had a brother named Bradfield that was older. He had a younger brother, Jeffrey. And then he had a sister that was younger as well. And she would actually end up kind of distancing herself from the family at one point, not having much to do with them as she got to be older. But like I said, I mean, this was not, you know, a downtrodden, poverty stricken family. They were affluent, like I mentioned. They were well regarded in the community.

So you had the mother Flavia. And what was interesting about her is that she was not. She was known or said to always tell people that she traced her ancestry all the way back to passengers on the Mayflower. Couldn't a lot of people do that? I would think. Well, there's only so many them on there. That's what I'm just saying. And the other thing that she would say is that she had ancestors that were big time heroes in the Revolutionary War. Oh, I'm related to David. Crockett, Daniel Boone, whichever one was in the both of them. Yeah.

Don't forget George Washington. Pick one. Pick one. So you had Flavia the mother. The father was also named Haddon. And Hadden, this guy, he had an MBA and a PhD in chemistry.

That's impressive. No, very impressive. So, I mean, that's kind of what I'm saying, right? This is a family that has, had money. They were educated. Educated. They had a lot going on.

It was said that Haddon, the dad, he had helped to invent clinging plastic wrap and also fire retardant carpet. Well, that's pretty big. So he's got that going for him. He's like Mr. Saran wrap slash carpet guy. And then you had the grandfather of having. The father of Haddon. I always hate it when these kids are named after their dad.

It makes it hard to tell the story. But basically the grandfather, he was the mayor of White Plains, New York at one point. Just a lot of stuff going on here. It's like they could have been affluent people. Yeah. All sounds positive, right? Yes. Money, privilege, you know, vacations, you name it.

Sounds like another podcast. Well, here's the problem. They had a whole bunch of dark secrets. So what it may have appeared to be on the outside was totally different than what was going on inside the actual household. Because both Flavia and Haddon were raging alcoholics. Their drinking led to these brutal altercations. I mean physical fights that in front of the kids, I mean the kids witnessed these fights. these fights and you and I talk about that what does that do yeah I mean it plays on their psyche for

sure yeah and that's that's the least of what's what these kids are going to go through especially hadon the the youngest had and there's never a good you know reason to argue in front of the kids got to take it somewhere else well we're not even talking about arguing we're talking about fist fighting physical fighting that definitely needs to be taken elsewhere well it shouldn't be done It should be done. It was going to be done. Take it elsewhere. Yeah. The other thing Gibbs that the family really had to deal with was that they moved a lot. And a lot of people can say that, right? We moved a lot as a kid. Somebody might say that. These people were moving like twice a year.

That's like more than the Air Force, what we call the Air Force Brats. Right. Right. No, there's no doubt about it. Many years it was said that they moved twice in the same year. and it was basically the father constantly looking for a new job, better job, more money. Now, I don't blame somebody for doing that, but that's a lot of upheaval. That's amazing rough on the kids for sure, new schools every time. Yeah. Introducing yourself all over again. Well, and especially for somebody like Haddon, because that's, let's get into his childhood,

the younger Haddon. So now when I say Haddon, I'm talking about the kid, right? we're done talking about the father. So it was very clear from an early age that Haddon was exhibiting some very strange behavior. And Hadden's mother Flavia, but she would blame all of Hadden's strange behavior on this bad delivery. And specifically the use of forcips during the delivery. And she claimed that they used too much pressure. and that these foreseps caused him to have some type of brain damage.

So that's what she would tell everybody when he would act out strangely. So we've talked about in the past about people can have issues from being dropped on their head as a infant or some type of head trauma growing up. Then couldn't these forcips actually maybe really do some brain damage? damage or some type of injury. So is she maybe on to something? Gibbs, I think there's no doubt that you could be right. I mean, if you take a metal instrument and clamp it around an infant's head and just use too much pressure, that would have to cause some type of injury.

Now, whether it caused brain damage or, but I think it could definitely happen. Yeah, because their skull at that point is pretty soft. Yeah. I mean, that to me sounds very plausible. But by the time that Haddon was for, his mother took him to the Yale University Child Study Center. She wanted to get him evaluated. Now, Gibbs, we're talking about Yale here.

I mean, he can say I went to Yale. This is not Podung-Fill USA Minute Clinic. This is Yale. And a doctor there would say that Hadden had cerebral palsy and that maybe he had some mild brain damage. So again, maybe his mother wasn't that far off. The problem is after this doctor gave this diagnosis, the father hadn't senior started calling Haddon the retard.

And this is normally after he'd been drinking. And as we said, they were alcoholic. So I have a feeling they were drinking all the time when not at work. Yeah, it's pretty cruel to say. And I hate that word. And I would never use it. But this is exactly the phrasing that the father used. So I think I have to put it out there, Gibbs, so that people get the full effect.

Right. I would never use that word. I detest it. I don't like it. Gibbs, the next thing we have to talk about. And this is very important in Haddon's life, not only in childhood, but as he gets older. And this is the fact that both of his parents wanted him to be a girl. They resented the fact that he was a boy.

It's very well documented. And I think this played a lot into the way that they treated him. I mean, there were a lot of accounts that said his mother would dress him up in girls' clothing and call him Christine. Wow. Really? Yeah. What the hell is that doing to a four or five, six year old boy?

Especially if they have any brain issues, right? Learning disabilities or anything like that. Talking about really confusing them. We talked about psyche. That's got to do something to your psyche. And we know it has an effect on him because we've already said that later on, he becomes the cross-dressing cannibal. Right?

So his mom is making him wear women's clothing at a very young age, and he just happens to later on become the cross-dressing cannibal? You can connect those dots pretty easily. Coincidence? I don't think so. Now, there was one incident that happened when Haddon was a child that I want to cover Gibbs. He rammed his younger brother with his bike. Basically ran him over.

His brother fell down, hit his head on the sidewalk. I mean, blood pouring out. This is the scene that you have to picture. And what Haddon does is he walks in to tell his mother that there had been an accident. But he finished it up with saying, but don't worry, my bike is okay. At no point does he even tell his mom that his younger brother has hit his head and blood is pouring out. I mean, that's interesting. For him, that's where his concern level is, the bike, not his brother.

Does that play into, or does that give you a window into his emotional view on things, right? Because he has no empathy for his brother, maybe? It could be, or it could just be the fact that, like we talked about, he has some form of learning disability. So maybe he doesn't understand at this point, right, wrong. Well, I don't know that he ever will. Well, yeah. I mean, he might understand it, but he's not, he's going to cross the line. We know that.

Right. Because he's on an episode of true crime all the time. I just thought it was a very interesting little, little tidbit of his childhood because I think it speaks to something. The other thing that was very evident from a young age in Haddon is that he had a real thing, Gibbs, about getting even with people. and this was anybody that he felt had crossed him, anybody that teased him, criticized him, you name it. He had this thing about getting even with people, and it's going to extend into his adulthood.

So we're foreshadowing a little bit here. Even back at that time as a kid, it was known that he decapitated the pets of some of the kids that teased him. Yeah, that's huge. That's sick. This is the level of revenge that we're talking about, right? I'm not saying, you know, you called me a name and I got back at you by calling you a name. You called me a name.

I found out where you lived or knew where you lived, got a hold of your pet and cut its damn head off. Yeah, this is like fatal attraction rabbit on the stovetop thing. Oh, well, you're really foreshadowing now. But you know that's got to be a bad sign, right? We talk a lot about kids torturing animals and what kind of sign or predictor that can be. But this is taking it all. Now, he did that. It was known that he did torture animals.

He would trap them, torture them, even dissect them. But this other thing is taking it almost to a new level. Because you're searching out kids' pets. and you're taking it out on the pets to get back at these kids. So already we can see he's meeting at least two on the gibby scale of bad behavior issues that lead to terrible, terrible things. Well, and I think the gibby scale is a pretty good predictor of people that will go on to do bad things, right?

There's the McDonald triad that we talk about. There's all these other things. But then you've got this new gibby scale that's come out. Fairly scientific. It is fairly scientific, and it's a hell of a predictor. Look it up. So now Haddon gets into his teens, and he starts wearing women's clothing on his own. Right.

So when he was young, his mom dressed him up and dresses and things like that. But now she's not doing that anymore. He's doing it on his own. This fact is pretty easily discovered by his parents, right? It's not too hard to figure out that he's wearing women's clothing. Now, I'm not sure why this would be a big shock to his mom, because she kind of started this whole thing with him. But his dad was not having it at all.

He was not a big fan of this wearing women's clothes. His father would beat Haddon with a belt. He would wait for Haddon to get out of the bathtub naked. And it was almost like he was trying to beat. this thing out of him, this wanting to wear women's clothes, he was trying to beat it out of him. So there's like never a good time for a, for a beating. So one of the worst times to get a beating would be coming out of the bathtub after soaking and your skin is super soft. It would hurt like a mother. Oh, well, he's probably still a little wet. It's like the old football days in the

shower where somebody wraps up the towel and smacks you on the on the ass it hurts like a you know what i didn't i was probably the one given the the towel snaps not receiving you were the giver not the givey yeah or not the receiver i don't know i'll leave that alone there's a horrible inappropriate joke in there somewhere it's about the same time that hadn't gets caught peeping into windows he's he's started to cross-dress now he's graduated into peeping into windows and he's actually arrested. This results in some type of police charge. But, you know, again, he's, he's in his very young teen. So nothing's going to happen to him at that, at this point. Peeping in windows a day gets a shot. Oh, yeah, no doubt. But it was at the age of 14 that Haddon

Clark says he committed his first murder. And he says that he killed a boy, but he also says that his father helped him cover it up. Now, granted, this is like a lot of stories we tell. Most of this or all of this were getting from Haddon after the fact. But we don't really know why he killed the boy, do we? No, we don't. And we don't know who it is. And police never find out who it is.

They can never, based on his information, they can never figure out who it is. So this is one of those that he confesses that he murdered a boy, but it's never proven. and there's not really a lot of information on it. I'm guessing if he actually did. It was probably maybe somebody had picked on him. Oh, I would agree. And he just, you know, like with the animals, he went too far. I was going to say, you start with that, you know, killing kids' pets,

and then you graduate to actually killing the kid that you think has done you wrong. Right. So there's really not a whole lot that happens with Haddon up through the graduation of high school. But at this point, when he graduates, Gibbs, he's 21 years old. So obviously he had been held back a number of times. A number. Well, I just wanted that to sink in.

21 years old, he was by far the oldest kid in his class. You would think probably what, at least three times? I'd think in four. Yeah, some people graduate when they're 17. Yeah. But if he had any learning disabilities, then, you know, maybe that plays into it. Well, and I did read somewhere where it was said that his IQ or his intelligence was average to below average. But I don't think he was really low on the scale.

I mean, I think he was low. Don't get me wrong. But it also said that there were certain things that he was very like chess. Apparently he was a very good chess player. Right. So some analytical things, I mean, chess takes a lot of analytical ability. so he was very good at chess apparently. But he was 21 years old when he graduated high school.

But even with that, he goes on with the help of his mother to enroll in the Culinary Institute of America. This is actually pretty prestigious place. And that when he came out after graduating from this, he basically had his pick of jobs in that field. It's a good place to learn some knife skills. No doubt about it. Slice, dice. You know those chefs are good with knives. So he was able to get some good jobs,

but he could never keep a job because of his erratic, strange behavior. In one particular instance, it was said that he actually urinated into a vat of mashed potatoes. What is it with all these people pissing into things? I don't get it. I don't know.

I don't either. I go back to like Herb Bowmeister. He had this thing with pissing into things. of. Yeah. Oh, yeah. You know, he did this into these mashed potatoes, but the reason why is because he was retaliating against some coworkers and management for situations where he felt that they had

slided him. So everything comes back to this. Anytime he feels slided or he feels wronged, he has to retaliate. But people do that, man. I remember watching, and it's been a long time ago, but it was one of those YouTube videos that just shot out of the park, man. It was about some guy at his workplace was pissing in the coffee craft or whatever it's called, right?

And just because he was pissed at his co-workers. So he would do that. And eventually they thought something was up, but they couldn't figure it out. So they put a camera in the break room, and they got to see what was in their morning coffee. That must have been a rough day for the coffee during course. Yeah, I think it would have been a really rough.

day. So between the years of 1972 and 1984, Haddon Clark had 14 different jobs. I mean, that's almost a feat in itself to be able to get that many jobs. Obviously, he has a hard time keeping them, but he doesn't seem to have a problem actually getting them. It's kind of like that Seinfeld episode. You have no problem in taking the reservation. You have a problem keeping it. the reservation. So just a couple of kind of ones that I picked out. He did a one-year stint on a cruise ship. He had some jobs in like banquet halls.

And he actually worked at the 1980 Olympics in Lake Placet, New York. One of the jobs that he had during this time was in Cape Cod. And he would later confess Gibbs to killing multiple women during this time period and also claimed that he drank their blood. So we're getting in some vampireish tendencies here? This guy, I mean, he's got some tendencies. Don't, yeah. So he claimed that he buried the women under sand dunes.

And one in particular, he said he chopped off her hands at the wrists. And then he chopped off her fingers. And he was using those as bait to fish off the pier. Now, again, this is him talking, and we're going to talk more about these women and the search for these women and that comes up later. But this guy's something else. So we get to 1981 and Haddon joins the Navy as what was termed a below-deck cook. I'm not that familiar with the Navy, so I really don't understand what that means, Gibbs. Do you have an above-deck cook?

I don't know. Anyway, that's what he was. but the key about this time is he doesn't fit in with the Navy. And the reason why he doesn't fit in with the Navy is because he's wearing women's underwear under his uniform. That's going to be pretty hard to hide. Yeah, I'm thinking out on the sea there with a boat full of men and you're walking around a lingerie,

probably not going to go very well. Well, it's under his uniform, but maybe he bends over and then you see his whale tail. I don't know what's going on. Well, tail. But the other thing is you don't have a lot of privacy, right, on a ship, I wouldn't think. Someone's doing your laundry. Either that or, you know, you're changing in front of other men.

They're going to notice that you're wearing women's underwear. He was beaten. He was bullied. At one point, it was said he was locked in a meat freezer for about three hours. And he got into a bunch of fights. and one of them, he ended up getting a concussion because some guy was banging his head against the deck of the aircraft carrier.

So this was not a good time for Haddon in the U.S. Navy. That's what I'm trying to say. Well, if they only knew what he did to mashed potatoes, I bet they... Yeah, who knows what he was doing while he was cooking for, you know, for these semen. I just wanted a chance to use the word semen correctly.

I'm not touching that one, buddy. So he got thrown out of... of the Navy, he got a medical discharge, and it's at this point that doctors diagnose him as paranoid schizophrenic. He was prescribed some medicine to take, but he would never take it. He would later say he just didn't care. He didn't care what they said. He was fine. He didn't need it, and he wouldn't take the medicine. So we have to talk about Haddon's brother Bradfield, because by the time that Haddon gets discharged from the Navy, his older brother Bradfield is already incarcerated for murder.

Now hold on. Bradfield is in prison for murder. For murder. Did he get drop on his head? Not that I know of. Were the four steps tied around his head? Not that I know of. Wow.

But he grew up in the same household. And as far as I know, he wasn't made to dress up or anything. I never have any of that in the research. You know, a family that murders together. Goes to prison together. Yeah. But we got to talk about it, Gibbs, because how strange is it? And I don't know that we've had on any episode that we've ever done where not together, right, they're not working together.

These are two completely separate instances. And basically what happened was in the summer of 84, Bradfield, I think he went by Brad. He had the hots for this woman that was married that he worked with. And in July, he invited this couple her and her husband over to dinner. For whatever reason, the husband couldn't make it. So this coworker, her name was Trish, she went alone. Brad makes his advances. She tells him she's not interested.

And he ends up slamming her head against a wall and straight. wrangling her to death. But it doesn't in there. So disclaimer. If you're eating. Yeah. So yeah, a little disclaimer here. He cuts up her body and he ends up cooking some of her body parts on a barbecue grill. So doesn't sound like something you do for the first time. It doesn't. So is this just the time that he was caught? Because obviously he's going to get caught here. Because it, it think if you're into that stuff, maybe the first time, I don't know, I don't think you think, let me fire up the grill, put a little marinade on. Well, it's something you and I talk about a lot, right?

How many times do these people do things and get away with it before they're actually caught? Now, a lot of people end up telling or confessing to things after the fact, but they probably also leave out a bunch of it too. Oh, I think so. He's a cannibal. We know Haddon is going to be a cannibal. How strange is that? I don't know how two brothers and two separate incidents can do stuff like this.

So two days after he murdered Trish, he stuffed her into plastic bags, put them in his car, and then he went and turned himself in. So how nuts is that? Well, and that goes back to you saying, is this the first time he did it? He really wasn't trying to get away with this. It was almost like he snapped, he'd a passion type thing, and then he realized afterwards what he'd done and he turned himself in. Well, at least he did that. You know, he gets to the police department and he says, I've got a woman's body in my trunk.

In my belly? get in my belly yada yada yada he gets 18 years to life as a second Seinfeld reference of the yeah like that but you know Brad was a computer software specialist I mean he had some stuff going on for him he wasn't downtrodden he wasn't I don't know I just I think something snapped in him so that was 84 in 86 hadn't Clark senior that we talked about both brothers' father commits suicide. So I wonder if it just weighed on him about what his son did and maybe also his disappointment and his other son.

Obviously, he's going to be very disappointed in Bradfield once all this stuff comes out that, I mean, imagine the details Gibbs that would come out in this trial, the dismemberment, the grilling up of body parts and eating. I mean, that would be hard for a parent to live with. Yeah, I couldn't imagine. And it's just a year after, it's two years after the murder, give or take, but just a year after he was sentenced that Haddon Clark Sr. committed suicide. So logically, if you put the dots together,

you think that probably had something to do with it. So Gibbs, we're getting ready to talk about Haddon's first murder that is provable. Let's put it that way. You know, there's a lot of speculation that he's murdered a number of people before this. But I have to say that this first murder involves a young girl. So I want to put that out there before we go into it. So we're in May of 1986. And as we talked about, things are not going well for Haddon Clark.

You know, he's bounced around from job to job. He got discharged from the Navy. his brother is a cannibal murderer. His dad has just committed suicide. And he has been staying with his younger brother, Jeff. But he's just gotten kicked out of Jeff's house for masturbating in front of young children. Really? Yeah.

I mean, the hits just keep on coming, man. Yeah. He has no, well, clearly he has no moral. Oh, he's got. Now, and these are not just any young children. These are his nieces and nephews. Yeah. That he's living with and he's masturbating in front of them.

I couldn't even imagine. So obviously, Jeff says, get the hell out of my house. Now, the other part of this that would come out, and this comes from Haddon, so you have to take it with a grain of salt, is that he says one of his nieces, had called him a retard and this angered him. And again, I don't like that word. I hate using that word, but I have to use it because it's part of this story. So that really angers Haddon.

And it kind of sets up this whole first murder. Because on the afternoon of May 31st, 1986, Haddon is at his brother's house alone. and what he's supposed to be doing is cleaning all of his shit out of the house because his brothers So get out Yeah they left to give him time

to clean his stuff out because they didn't want to be there A couple of doors down from Haddon's brother's house lived the doors So Carl Dorr is the father And his six-year-old daughter Michelle is staying with him

And what you have to understand in this situation Gibbs is that Carl and his ex-wife are going through this horrible divorce slash custody battle. And so Michelle is visiting and she's friends with Eliza who lives two doors down. So on that day, she goes down to Eliza's house, knocks on the door to see if she can come out and play. right that was a that's a natural thing for kids to do yeah the problem is on may 31st 1986 when she goes down knocks on the door hadn't clark answers he's there by himself like we said he's cleaning his stuff out michelle asks if eliza's home and hadden says she is she's up in a room play so as a kid would do she bounds up the stairs to go to

see Eliza. Following her up the stairs is Haddon Clark, and he's got a big knife in his hand. And he knows damn well that Eliza's not home. And this is a horrible crime, Gibbs, and there's no way around it. The details of this crime are so horrific. Well, and that's why, you know, normally I have a few comments I'll make, but it's just so hard for me to even sit here and listen to what's going to be coming up, you know, but it's important. Yeah, it's almost like I just, I just have to get through this part. Yeah. We've talked about it, you know, on other ones.

It's just tough, you know, when you talk about kids. It is. It is, it is very tough. But Haddon is on Michelle very quickly, puts his hand over her mouth and he starts slashing at her. And at one point, she bites him on his hand. And this angers him. and he kills her by putting this huge 12-inch knife directly into her throat, killing her.

So like I said, I mean, this is a horrible scene to have to imagine. But we have to talk about the amount of blood Gibbs. I mean, you stab somebody in the throat, probably hit the carotid or whatever. I mean, there's going to be blood everywhere. Yeah, even with a tiny little... In any type of... Precious girl. like that. Yeah, killing like that. This bedroom had a wood floor and it was an old house and it and it

had a slope to it. And because of that, all of the blood ran to find the lowest level of this slope. And it kind of flowed that way. Haddon tries to sexually assault this poor little girl. But it, but it doesn't work. He's not, he's not, he's. not able to. And so he immediately switches to how to cover all of this up, right? He goes into cover up mode. And he finds a bunch of trash bags. He goes out to his truck. He gets some rags. He gets a duffel bag. And what he ends up doing is putting Michelle in plastic bags and then inside the duffel bag. And then he goes about mopping up all the blood, which you know had to be a moniker. And then he know had to be a monumental task to try to clean all of this up, Gibbs.

I'm just picturing it in my mind. I don't even know how you would do it. But using rags and whatever else he had, he cleaned up all this blood, he put those into the trash bags, and he leaves the house, he throws the bags in the back of his truck, and he takes off. Because he's got to get to work. Yeah, he's running late. Yeah, he works.

He's got a chef's job at the Chevy Chase Country Club. and he doesn't want to be late because that would get him noticed and that might put him on a radar. So he works his shift at the Chevy Chase Country Club and when his shift is over, he starts to drive home. Now keep in mind this whole time,

this girl and all of these bags of evidence are in the back of his truck. He finds a wooded area, pulls over, he finds a tree and he digs a grave. But he doesn't stop there. Because for whatever reason, Gibbs, compulsion, fascination, I don't know what it is, but he feels like he has to eat part of this little girl.

He has to taste her flesh. That was what he would later say. It's crazy. It is crazy. And we're going to talk about it a little bit, but we've got to get through this. So he buries Michelle. He covers her body with dirt. And some old mattress that he found in the woods puts a bunch of leaves over all of it. And he gets back into his truck and he drives back to this room that he had rented,

which was about five miles from his brother's house where he had committed this crime. Now, we got through that and it was hard. But we got to talk about this cannibalism. And my question, Gibbs, is, was this something that he had thought about? Or did this have something to do with his brother? Yeah, I'm kind of thinking this is some type of family thing here. You know, either the two brothers, not the three, but the two brothers. Or I don't know, there's something there. Or did he learn what his brother did and wanted to see what it was all about?

And somehow become fascinated and think that he had. had to do it too. I don't know the answer to that and I couldn't find what his reasoning was behind it. Maybe it's out there. I didn't find it. I can't imagine ever doing it. I had to be like that movie with the airplane. Yeah, the airplane crash.

Yeah. I know what you're thinking before you think it. Yeah. That's scary. So horrible murder, unbelievably sad victim. Right? A six year old girl doesn't get any sadder than that. And what he did to her was just horrific.

But now we get to the investigation, right? Because we talked about Carl Dorr, and that was Michelle's dad. Carl realizes that his daughter's not come back. And Carl called the police. But if you remember, we talked about the fact that Carl and his ex or I think maybe they were just estranged at this point. they had been battling over custody and all kinds of things and his estranged wife comes out and says that she thinks that Carl killed their daughter. And he immediately becomes suspect number one.

And the police go at him Gibbs right away. I mean, they're basically saying, you know, we know you did it. They want him to take a polygraph the next day right after. this happened and he does he takes it and they say that the results are that he knows more about what happened than what he's telling them

and that just solidifies it in the in their mind so I think at this point Gibbs the police definitely have tunnel vision I just feel I feel for the dad I mean if if well right now they don't know anything that happened

right they don't know it was hadn't right They don't have a body, so they don't know what happened. Right. They have no idea. They just know that she's gone. And he was the last, in their mind, he was the last one to see her alive. So he can't even grieve because right now he's fighting for his innocence. No, he can't grieve because the very next day he's taking a polygraph test.

And he's being told that he's the number one suspect. And like we said, they think he's being deceptive on that polygraph test. I mean, this is like a nightmare scenario, right? For somebody that didn't do it, and especially a dad that didn't kill his daughter. Yeah, he can't, like we said, he can't grieve. He's fighting for his proof to show that he's innocent. You know, sometimes if you really think it was somebody, no matter what the evidence shows, sometimes you can be blinded by that and you can twist it to make it look like it more,

that it's more than it is. You can take some facts and turn it into a bigger. You could kind of, you know, the old saying, you can make a mountain out of a mole hill. Yeah, there's no doubt. But what he does, what he goes through, so he offers to take a second lie detector test. And this one he actually passes. He also, and this is all voluntarily, right? He undergoes hypnosis.

He takes sodium pentothal, which is like, you know, true serum or whatever you call it. None of this convinces the cops. They're locked on that he's the one. Well, and then he does something that to most people would be baffling because he snaps and he ends up telling a psychiatrist that he did abduct and kill his daughter. Michelle's mother told the police he had threatened to harm his own daughter. He had threatened in the heat of anger, in the heat of a very, horrible divorce to take the daughter, take Michelle away so that her mother couldn't have her

anymore. I've insisted, you know, you've done something. I know you've done something with Michelle and we're going to find her body and when we find her body, I'm coming to get you. It's what he told me, point blank, finger in the face, you know, in my face, screaming, yelling, you know, you need to confess. On three different occasions, he told the police he'd killed his daughter and told the police where they could go and find her body. And one of them was underneath the, I guess, the crawl space of his house. Another was in his father's own grave in a cemetery in D.C. He felt a lot of pressure, and the police put a lot of pressure on him.

And as a result of that pressure and the guilt and the shame that he felt about his daughter's disappearance, he cracked. There's no doubt about that. He cracked. I couldn't deal with what they were telling me that we're not going to find Michelle alive. I just was trying to go into some sort of denial about that. I was starting to lose it.

I mean, in a psychiatric sense. I mean, I was having a nervous breakdown. I was hallucinating. I was seeing things that weren't there. I was hearing people that weren't there. So that's Carl Dorr. Yeah. And you heard the woman say, not only once,

he said it three times that he killed his daughter. But I go back to what you said, Gibbs, right? traumatic experience, he's lost his daughter, he doesn't know what's happened to her, the police are grilling him. You're in interrogation room for hours and all day, sleep deprived, hungry, thirsty, and everybody with any authority is telling you, you did it.

We know you did it. You know you did it. Just say it. Say it, Mike. Say it, right? You know, you're worn down. You're going to say, all right, I did it. I'm about ready to confess to something just to get you to shut the hell up.

Yeah. No, but I get what you're saying, right? And we've seen this in other cases where people confess the things they didn't do. Sometimes you just want to get the hell out of that room. It's too much. And you will do or say whatever you have to do to get out of that room to get to just have that interrogation stopped. But the thing is Gibbs, we know he didn't do this, right?

We know Haddon Clark did this. The problem is that this guy, and I feel bad, I feel really bad for this Carl Dore because number one, he lost his daughter. And number two, he would be the prime suspect and pretty much only suspect in this murder of his daughter for many years. Because we're going to go through it. They're not going to figure out who did this for a number of years. So he loses out on so much more too.

Yeah. I mean, the ultimate's his daughter, but he loses out on just so much life, so much, you know. He probably had to walk around with other people thinking that he killed his own daughter. There he is. There's that guy. I mean, I just can't imagine. So we jump back to Haddon Clark.

On the day after Michelle Dore vanished, there was a detective that saw Haddon Clark in the driveway of his brother's house. And he was fixing his truck engine or something like that. And the cop stopped to ask him some questions. And one of the questions was, were you here yesterday? And Haddon said, I was for about two or three minutes. And so obviously the detective thought, you know, we need to look into this further. He talked with some of the other detectives.

And they found out that Haddon Clark was known around the neighborhood as a weird guy. And because of that, they brought him in. And they questioned him. But he appeared to have a pretty airtight alibi. You know, and it all centered around the timing of when he got to the country club. And, you know, he had a punch card that showed what time he punched in. But it all had to do with timing. because if you go back to Carl

you know Carl obviously had told the police everything and one of the things he told them was the last time that he saw his daughter and because of the time that Carl Dorr had as the last time he saw his daughter

and the punch time of when Haddon Clark started work it was a very short window and they figured that there was no way that somebody could do everything that they had to do in that short of time frame. The problem is, gives what we're going to find out is that Carl got the time wrong. And the window was much, much bigger. And had he not gotten it wrong, it may have played out a little different with the interrogation

of Haddon Clark. But even with all that, this interrogation doesn't go well for Haddon because the minute that they start asking him about Michelle Dore, he ends up getting sick. I mean, he has to go into the bathroom and he's vomiting so loudly that the cops can hear him. And they're asking him, what did he do to Michelle?

And he says, sitting in the bathroom stall in between heaving, I don't know. I may have done something. I black out and do things I can't remember. But then he goes back to the fact of that he worked that day. There's no way it could have been him. And when the police put it all together with the timing and everything, even though this guy is acting strangely and he basically almost kind of confessed,

not a full confession, they just can't do anything with him. And it's sad because he's going to go on to kill again. and it's sad for Michelle Dore, it's sad for Carl Dore because it's going to be 14 years, Gibbs, before all of this comes out. That's insane. So going back to what we talked about,

Carl Dore had to live under this cloud of suspicion for 14 years. So he never really got the right to grieve the way one should because he's constantly got people judging him. So in the years after, he murdered Michelle Dorr. I just want to touch on some highlights, won't spend a lot of time.

In 88, he gets in a fight with his mom, Flavia. We haven't talked about Flavia in a while. He knocks her down, begins kicking her, and then tries to run her over in his truck. The very next day, she charges him with the Salton Battery. He gets one year probation.

Does no jail time. And from this point forward, Flavia pretty much writes, him off. She'd already written Brad off, I think, because of what he did. And now she's writing Haddon off as well. Now, the same year that that happened, he is renting the basement from a family by the name of the Mahanis. And at some point when his lease comes up, they say, hey, we're not renewing the lease. We want you to leave. That doesn't sit well with Haddon Clark. We know he takes things very personally, right, Gibbs?

Exactly. But what he does go so far and above what you would think somebody miffed would do. So first of all, he booby traps their house. I mean, this is some home alone type shit here. He takes a 10 gallon oil can, puts it over the door, and rigs it so that when somebody opens it, it's going to spill on the person. 10 gallons. 10 gallons is a lot. That's like 70 pounds, man.

Of oil. Yeah. That's 70, 80 pounds of... Number one, if it falls wrong, you're going to kill somebody, potentially. Number two, that's going to be a lot of oil. That's a whole lot of oil. So the next thing he does, he takes a bunch of black dye and puts it all over their living room floor. But, oh, he doesn't stop there, Gibbs.

He takes a bunch of rotted fishheads. He sticks some in the piano. He put some in the chimney. He put some in the stove. Then he killed the family's two cats. Because we know he has no problem killing animals. And he puts one in the refrigerator and one on the welcome mat. Like, Gibbs, this is not a balanced person.

So this is some fatal attraction and stuff kind of like, you know, the rabbit on the pot on the stove. This is the kitty cat in the fridge and in the welcome mat. Well, this is why I said where you were. kind of foreshadowing earlier, this is that part. I just can't imagine somebody going to this level because somebody said they weren't going to renew your lease. Now, there were some times when Haddon Clark attempted to get some help. And remember, he was a veteran so he could go to the VA hospital and he did.

And there were multiple times where he would stay a couple days, he would get medication. they put him on some antipsychotic drugs, but every time he would take off. And at this point, I think he's living in the woods after he gets kicked out of the Mahanis. But they did have, after the fact,

one of the doctor's diagnosis from one of his trips to the VA hospital, and I wanted to read it because it says his mental state is psychosis with questionable ideology. I hope I'm saying that right. He states that birds and squirrels talk to him

and keep him company. He is tearful at times with intermittent outbursts of anger and agitation. He's a potential danger to himself through poor judgment and self-defeating behavior. So kind of like a bipolar Dr. Doolittle not taking his meds. Exactly.

Okay. So in 89, we got to get back to some cross-dressing because this is such an interesting story. I have to include it. February of 89, Haddon Clark dresses as a woman. And he starts going to a bunch of different churches. And while the members are having their choir practice, he's running around stealing all their purses and coats, dressed as a woman. And at one point, the cops pulling him. over and they open the trunk, they see all these coats and purses, and he asked them if they are

his. And he says, of course, they're mine. I'm a woman. This is what he's telling the cops. He's dressed as a woman. They find wigs, dresses, and some cash. So he actually pleads guilty to two counts of theft on this one. And he gets a sentence of 18 months, but the judge suspends it down to 45 days.

Of course. I know you love that part, Gibbs. That's what always happens. Now, of course, the judge doesn't know that he's killed a bunch of people already, but he does serve the 45 days. Now, what the judge does do is it gives him three years probation because of his mental history. Okay, Gibbs, so we have to fast forward to 1992.

Haddon Clark is working as a gardener for a woman by the name of Penny Hoddling. and Penny's a divorced mother and she's also a psychotherapist. And it was said that Penny liked to help people that she thought were less fortunate. So she actually gave Haddon this job, this gardening job, because she thought he was a homeless man from a local church. And I think at this point he is kind of homeless. You know, he was living out in the woods. But he actually turns out to be a pretty good gardener.

Haddon became very attached to Penny because he saw her as sort of a motherly figure, probably because he basically no longer had a mother. I'm thinking. And he didn't have a really good mother to begin with. Now, Penny's home was only 10 miles from where Hadden had murdered Michelle Dorr. So because Hadden was a pretty good worker, he'd been there for a while, Penny ultimately allowed. him to enter her house to use the bathroom, to get something to drink. So I'm saying this Gibbs because he has a good understanding of the layout of this house. But then Penny starts to notice that items are disappearing from her house. I mean, we're talking pearls, her underwear, other types of clothing. And then something happens that's going to kickstart Haddon. And this is that Penny's

daughter Laura returns home. She's been at Harvard and she's just graduated from Harvard. Well, we know he's a Yale man. He is a Yale man. So she's graduated from Harvard, returns home. And what this did to Haddon, because we talked about he'd become kind of attached to Penny, the mom. Yeah, he's getting all the attention.

And now Laura comes back and she's getting all the attention. because she's Penny's actual daughter, but in Haddon's mind, it's some, this is just somebody between him and Penny. So he starts plotting revenge, right? He calls it revenge because he feels like Laura has done something to him, but all she's done is come home. Well, we know what he likes to do when he goes into revenge mode. So it all starts when Penny tells Haddon that she's going away for a conference. And she gives him the exact dates that she's going to be gone. And this is a bad move in retrospect, right? Because this is what he needs. He needs to know when Laura's going to be home alone. So on October 14th, 1992, Haddon goes to a hardware store. He buys two rolls of duct tape, rope, nylon cord.

Now, what is fascinating about this Gibbs is later on, police are going to recover. cover the check that he had written at this hardware store. And in the memo line is written Laura. Wow. Think about that. Yeah. What is he thinking is a tax write off? I mean, how big of a dumbass do you have to be?

Pretty big dumbass, but you are buying things because you've decided to murder somebody. And the person that you've decided to murder, you're going to write their name in the memo line of the check that you use to buy all the stuff that you're going to use in the murder. Right. So to me, that goes to me, is he really not that smart? Is he not care about it? Is he not thinking about it? I don't know.

Could be a combo. Who knows? October 18th, this is four days after he buys all of the supplies. Because Penny leaves on the 17th. So he only waits a day. And it's about midnight. He rolls up in his truck and he goes to the gardening shed because he knows this is where Penny keeps a spare key to the house. So he slips into the house using the spare key.

But get this, Gibbs. He is dressed in Penny's clothing that he's stolen over the however longer period of time. He's wearing a wig. Oh, this is like Norman Bates. That's what I'm picturing. He has to look like Norman Bates. Yeah. at this point. Wow. Okay. So not only is he wearing her clothes on the outside, he's wearing her underwear,

he's carrying a black purse and a woman's trench coat. And underneath the trench coat, he has a 22 caliber rifle. He goes to the room where Laura's sleeping and he wakes her up. And what happens next is, I don't even know how to explain it, Gibbs. but he's questioning Laura as to why she's sleeping in his bed. Wow. So now we're getting into a little Bates Hotel slash the Three Bears. Yeah, something. Yeah. He's asking her all these questions, you know,

why are you in my bed? Why are you wearing my clothes? Obviously, she doesn't know what the hell's going on. Now, she knows who this guy is. She's seen him around the house. I'm sure she can't figure out why he's wearing, women's clothing and a wig. Yeah, it would throw me off.

But he even goes as far as wanting her to call him Laura. He makes her call him Laura. He makes her get up and take a bath. He makes her lay down on the bed. He binds her wrists with duct tape that he purchased at the hardware store that we talked about. He binds her ankles. So I'm thinking, Mike, someone had a 22 pointed at me.

rifle, I think I would take the chance and go for the struggle, the fight, whatever, right? Am I thinking wrong here? I mean, it's a 22 caliber, right? I know if they shoot, it can ricochet with inside and all that stuff, but I don't know. I think for me, of course, it's hindsight, right? I mean, but I think I would go for it. Well, you and I talk about this. It's hard to know what you would do, but it's interesting to talk about.

and there are statistics about in different situations, are you supposed to comply or are you supposed to at a certain point fight because you know things aren't going to end well? Right. I have better odds with a 22 rifle pointed at me. Well, yeah, if you're just talking about guns, I'd rather have a 22 pointed at me than a 45. Right.

I guess if we're saying that. But I think regardless, you're still in a split second almost trying to make a decision about what's in my best interest to see how this goes and try to play my way out of it or to take my chances and fight. So Haddon's got her bound on the bed and he ends up using duct tape to cover not only her mouth, but her nose and her eyes. He's basically covering up everything with duct tape. And what happens is he ends up suffocating her.

Some people can pull air through their eyes. But she does. She ends up dying from suffocation from all of this duct tape. So what Haddon ends up doing is he wraps her body in a sheet and puts her in his truck. And then he goes back inside to clean up. You know, so reminiscent of the murder that he had committed before, he's least cognizant of the fact that he needs to clean up evidence. But along with that gives, he takes a couple of things from Laura. He takes her high school ring and a few other personal items.

So he's taking trophies. And then he lays down in her bed and he goes to sleep. So riddle me that. He wants to be Laura. Exactly. What else can it be? He wants her to call him Laura. He's acting like he is Laura.

And now he's going to sleep in Laura's bed after he's murdered her. It's like the three little bears. It's very bizarre. So he ends up getting up. He leaves around eight in the morning. I keep in mind, still wearing the women's clothing, the wig, carrying a purse. And this is important

because there's a witness that would later tell police that Laura left the house that morning looked like she was heading off to work as usual. So the witness thought that Haddon dressed up looked enough like Laura that they thought it was Laura.

So that night Haddon drives Laura still in his truck. He finds a spot. He digs a shallow grave and he rolls her body into it. And again, covers the body with some dirt and leaves. So Gibbs, Laura fails to show up for work. That sounds off all the alarm bells.

Her mom's worried. The local cops are doing a search. They pull into a canine unit. And this canine unit actually finds some of Penny's clothing out in the woods. But what they find that is most important, is Laura's bloodied pillowcase. And eventually they're going to match the pillowcase and the blood on it to Laura. They're going to find out it was hers.

And they also find a bloody fingerprint and they're going to match that as well as some hair fibers to Haddon Clark. They pull him in. They question him. Obviously, he denies it. But eventually they just have too much effort. evidence. And they arrest him about a month after the murder. But at this point, they still don't know where Laura is. They have not found her body. He's still working on me to make me what I ought to be. He's still working on me. I know what's going on.

I'm not talking about nothing. Because my Lord told me not to them. I told you honestly, I wouldn't, I asked some of your questions, whatever you want to ask. But some questions I'm not going to answer. Not just the way it in. All right, Gibbs. I don't even know what the hell to say about that. But that is Haddon Clark when he's being interviewed.

There's some weird shining shit going on in the beginning where he's, is he moving his little finger right? I don't know, but you know, you get like a vibe from people. Just hearing his voice, I'm picturing like a little small guy. I mean, his voice sounded very strange to me. And he wasn't a small guy. I think he was like six foot two. Yeah, I don't know.

That's just a weird clip there. That song is going to be stuck in my head for about the next three to four hours from now. He's still working on me. I don't even know what that song is, but it cracks me. Somebody will tell us. It's probably something. Yeah, it might be a religious song for all I know. And I just made fun of it.

The Haddon Clark ends up pleading guilty to second-degree murder, and he gets a 30-year sentence for the murder of Laura Hodling. And within days of his sentencing, he would end up leading police, along with his lawyers, to Laura Hodeling's body. So she would be recovered. So we fast forward to 1999. And there's a few things going on, Gibbs. Over the years, Haddon Clark had told a lot of people in jail that he had killed a bunch of people, right?

He's bragging. And there was one convict in particular that Haddon Clark actually believed was Jesus Christ. And I guess he had this beard and he had kind of a resemblance, people said, to pictures of Jesus Christ and hadn't thought he was. And when he was confessing to some of these things, especially the murder of Michelle Dorr, this convict told him to confess to the police. And because he thought he was Jesus Christ, he did. Now, at the same time, the police were able to put together some DNA from the Michelle Dore murder. And this was so interesting, Gibbs, because this house where he murdered Michelle Dore,

there was like two or three people that lived in it. Because, you know, we're talking about quite a stretch of time from when he murdered Michelle to when he ultimately confesses. And they're able to go back to this room where he murdered Michelle. And because it was wood floors, they were able to get some DNA that they could use to prove that she was killed in that room. Yeah, I bet. I mean, those back then would have been real wood floor.

So they would have wicked up any liquid, which would have been the blood. And there you go. So he ends up getting convicted for the murder of Michelle Dore. And in 2000, he agrees to cooperate with the police and lead them to the graves of some of his victims. And he does. He leads investigators to where he buried Michelle Dore. And it was in a park only about five miles from her home.

So imagine that. Imagine as a dad. number one, being a suspect, like we said for all that time, number two, finding out that your little girl was just five miles away this whole time. They had to use dental records, but they were able to ID Michelle. But Haddon Clark doesn't stop there. He's telling investigators about many more women that he murdered and disposed of in Connecticut, Massachusetts.

And so they want to get him out and get him up to, and this is like Cape Cod area, right? We foreshadowed this in the beginning that he had murdered some women in Cape Cod and buried them in the sand dunes. So he says he's willing to go and help them try to find these bodies. But he has one request.

And this one request is that he wants them, the police, to buy him women's clothing and a wig because he wants to wear it and we're talking the whole shabang here, Gibbs. The whole get up. Skirt, underwear, braw, wig. Spanks.

Spanks. So they go to Kmart and buy all this stuff. Get him to Cape Cod and imagine this is a 47-year-old man. He's handcuffed. Dressed as a woman walking around the sand dunes. dunes of Cape Cod trying to find these bodies, trying to tell investigators where these bodies are.

Ultimately, they don't find anything. So you have to wonder, did he really kill these women? Or was this just an excuse to get out some fresh new clothes and let his freak flag fly, like I like to say, get some new duds and go out? Or did he really kill him? And for whatever reason, they just couldn't find the bodies. Yeah. There's a couple of different. It'd be tough to find the body's 14, 15, 15, whatever years later. Yeah. Now, where he does also lead them is to his grandfather's estate.

And they are able to find a bucket that had been buried. And this bucket contained over 200 pieces of women's jewelry. Now, that's a lot of jewelry. And that could be a lot of trophies. So this is one of those ones, Gibbs, where you just don't know. Because one of the pieces in this bucket is Laura Hodling's high school ring. So what was the grandpa doing with it, you know? No, no.

He hadn't buried it. Oh, he buried it on the property. But he buried it on his grandfather's estate. So the fact that Laura's high school ring is in this bucket, it gives it validity. Sure it does. Now, does it mean that the other 200 plus pieces are all trophies? I don't know, but there's a, you could make the argument that some of them are. Yeah, I think there's odds are ever in your favor. I just spit out my water. I knew as soon as you said odds, you were going to end with ever in your favor. But what I think it does mean Gibbs is that

the body count could be much, much higher than what is provable. Oh, absolutely. I agree with that. So he had a couple of other confessions. We talked about the boy that he murdered when he was 14. He also confessed to killing a woman named Sarah Pryor in 1985, but that's one that they've never been able to confirm either. So I guess, you know, in wrapping this up, Gibbs,

Hadden's serving a 60-year sentence in Maryland for a combination of the murder of Michelle Dore, the murder of Laura Hodling. He also got like 10 years for stealing from that one family, the Mahanis that he tried to do the Home Alone thing on. Yeah, the 10-gallon bucket of oil. Yeah. But what I think law enforcement is left with,

is trying to separate out what they know versus what he has said and what is possible. And that's always really tough to do, right? We find that a lot in these cases. But there are things out there, Gibbs, that you can find where authorities think he could be involved in as many as 11 different killings in six different states. So they're looking at him in a bunch of different states. I still can't get over. He only has to serve 60 years. You and I can never get over the sentencing, right?

That's one of the biggest issues we have, whether it's light sentences in the beginning and they get away and they get away. Or in this case, I mean, he killed two innocent people and he got, like 10 years for some robbery and it still only added up to 60 years now he'll probably never see the light of day i think that's i know it i just hate that in the i don't know you want it to be life or you want it to be death or yeah ship one north korea let him go to north korea let him go to

north korea yeah so wrapping it up gibbs it's a very sad case right you have six-year-old michel door whole life ahead of her, 23 year old Laura Hodeling just graduated from Harvard. Yeah. What was she going to do? What changes was she going to make in the world? We don't know. And we'll never know because of Haddon Clark. And then I don't want to spend a lot of time talking about it because we did.

But Michelle's dad, Carl, you know, that's another. part of this tragedy. And for me, being a father, it's very hard to imagine how tough that would have been. Yeah, so look, none of these parents' lives will ever be the same. And his was definitely changed

on such a large scale because of the public perception of him for over 14 years. I mean, he was known as the, most likely, the person that killed his daughter, but they couldn't prove it. Right. And he had to go walk through life day after day like that.

Well, and then eventually he finds out that she was murdered. Yeah. And then he has to process all of that. Yeah, knowing how close it was to where he lived. And nobody comes up and says, you know what? I'm sorry, man.

No, they never do that. No. It's just like printing in the paper, right? If they call you out, you're on page one. And if they retract you, you're on, you're at the end. Yeah, no one ever sees it and, you know, nothing to change it. I do feel bad for him. But that is the case of Haddon Clark.

And I think it's a fascinating case. I think the guy's a monster. There's no doubt about that. You found another good one. So that's it for another episode of True Crime All the Time for Mike. And Gibby. Stay safe and keep your own time ticking. You know,