True Crime All The Time - Harvey Robinson

Episode Date: May 21, 2018

Harvey Miguel Robinson is an American serial killer who committed his murders in Allentown, Pennsylvania in the 1992 and 1993. His crimes were extremely brutal. But what sets Robinson apart from many other serial killers is his age. He was only 17 when he began murdering and was 18 when he was finally caught.Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the background and crimes of one of America's youngest serial killers. What were the circumstances in Harvey's life that led him down this evil path? You can help support the show by going to patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for merchandise, donation, and contact informationSponsors:Hims is a one stop shop for hair loss, skincare, and sexual wellness for men. Go to forhims.com/tcatt to get a trial month of hims for just $5Omax cognitive boost is exactly what you need to get your brain working at its peak performance. Go to omaxboost.com/tcatt to save 60% on your first 30 day supply.Credits:Writing/Research - Maggie DobschuetzSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

one and welcome to episode 79 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime. Mike Gibson. Give me what is going on. What's happening, man? How you doing? I'm doing good. I'm doing all right. I should ask you how you're doing. How you doing? How you doing? I'm all right, man. I'm hanging in there. Literally hanging in there. And that's a good thing. Yeah. Getting prepping for your surgery. Yeah. Tomorrow morning. Tomorrow morning. So we take taping a little earlier than we normally do. Yeah. And we've got something special for you by popular demand.

People have been asking for it. We said we were going to do it. And this is the episode. So we're going to give our Patreon, our PayPal shoutouts. And Mr. Gibby himself is going to do the honors. I am. So let's get some shoutouts. We got James Case.

Yep. I see what you're doing. You got Becky Towns. Oh, and Becky was, she was the one for sure that wanted you to read her name. There you go, Becky. How you doing? We got Scott Zodiac Stevenson. That is an amazing, if that's his real middle name, that is awesome.

If it was your real middle name, I'd be using it as my first name. Just Zodiac? Just, yeah. Zodiac Stevenson. Just call me Zodiac. He came out at our highest level. And we appreciate it. that. Yeah. We got L. Rosson. Old L. Oh, well, sorry L that he did that, but he's trying to crack on me.

We got Jacob Hughes. All right. Thanks, Jacob. We got Ali Myrick. Myrick? Yep. We got Vanessa Ricard. Then we have Just Steph. Just Steph? That's it. That's all we got. All right. So, thanks, Steph. We got Bailey Mattson. Thank you, Bailey. We have. We have. Tessa Alderton. Yep. We got to Nora Goletz, and she was already with us on Patreon, and she decided to kick it up a level, so she did to our highest level. Awesome.

Thank you. How does it feel, Gibbs? To read the names? With me messing with you, going, yeah. Oh, are you messing with me? I don't even hear you. Oh, you're so funny. I don't even hear you.

So we got Susan Graves. We got Jacqueline Hoffman. Appreciate it. Yeah. We got Dusty Thorhauer. Now, I will say, I'm going to stop. you because I don't think we have as many hard to pronounce names. I want some more or some harder to pronounce names for you. I think you're getting off easy. That's what I think so.

But anyway, we got Elizabeth Cirque. Yep. Then we have, you ready for this one? Vanessa Coors. I don't think that's that hard. I know. We got Paula Dawson. Thank you, Paula. Elijah Duffenbach. That's a tough one. That one could go. go a couple different ways. Yeah. Thanks, Elijah. We got Renee Boyle. We got our buddy back, Jordan, Jordan. We appreciate it. We got Hannah Sloan, Melissa Cummings. Thank you. At least she's not going. She's Cummings. We got Melanie Link. Thank you, Melanie. Welcome back. Jarrett Benfield. And of course, we got Brian Gibson out at our highest level. Appreciate it, Brian. He's a Gibson, so you know. We got Shane Lindstrom.

coming out at our highest level. Thank you, Shane. So I was going to make a joke, Gibbs, but you went too fast. I was going to say, well, that's not your family. Nobody from your family. Nobody from my family is coming out. They're not even listening. At our highest level.

Why would we ever listen to him? We hear him enough. Let alone donate and come out at the highest level. Yeah. No, I'm just kidding. So let's go to the vault, man. All right, let's do it. How far are we going back?

We're going way back. Almost as far as we can go. We go almost, but not that far. Okay. Got to put the brakes on at some point. All right. Yeah. So we're going to go back and we got Lori Johnson.

Thank you, Lori. Appreciate that. Yeah. Thanks, Lori. And thanks to everybody on Patreon that keeps giving each month, you know, new ones, old ones. Will you like the old ones too? Yeah, we do. What do you want to?

Yeah. The Eliginal. Original. Yeah. So we appreciate all of you. I know when you say the word old, it has. nothing to do with age. Oh, it has zero to do with age. But it still cracks me up the way you use it. I love it. Appreciate you. All right, Gibbs. And we had some PayPal support too. We had Emily Brower.

Thanks, Emily. Kelly Holiday. Kelly. And Shelley Landthorne. And one thing I want to say is we have a lot of supporters that are crossing over between T-Cat and criminology. I see the names. And that's much appreciated. It really is for people to support everything that we're doing. Yeah. I mean, everybody's awesome. Yep. It really is. All right. Now, as this episode is out, don't forget about TCAD Unsolved. We're taking on the KETI murders. So we're in California. We're in the early 80s. And I mean, this is a case that a lot of people know. Some may not know, but it's a big unsolved case. It's, I would say,

one of the more popular unsolved cases for the last 30 some years. Yeah, it's definitely up there when you think about mysterious unsolved cases. So check that episode out. It's good. All right, big shout out to Maggie

for writing and research on this episode, much appreciated. Now, I should have said it while we were talking about Patreon, but I did want to give a shout out to was our April Patreon merch winner. So she picked

out something. I think she's already been posting pictures of it. She did. She sent me one. All right, Gibbs. Are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime All Time? I'm excited to go. We are talking about Harvey Miguel Robinson. He committed a series of rapes and murders during 1992 and 1993 in Pennsylvania. Now, the Thing about Harvey Robinson is that he was only 17 years old at the time. And then he got into 18 as the murders were going on. But it makes him one of the youngest serial killers in American history.

So we'll talk about background a little bit like we like to do. Harvey Miguel Robinson was born December 6, 1974. So he's pretty close in age to me, not that far away from you. Yeah. Pretty close to our age. I should have said it that way. It would have made a lot more sense. It's probably the better. Yeah. And like a lot of people that we talk about, he was not born into the best of circumstances. You would have to call his family somewhat troubled and especially his father. And I think his father is very important. So we're going to spend some time talking about him. He was an abusive alcoholic who treated his wife Harvey's mother, very poorly, his parents would end up getting divorced around the time that he turned three. But his father, Harvey Rodriguez Robinson, already had another marriage.

He was married previously. He had another family already. And he had a long history of trouble. Because in 1962, the father Harvey, and it's always hard when, you know, you got a junior situation here. he was playing in a band in York, Pennsylvania. And like I said, at this time, he had a wife, not Harvey's mother, but somebody else. He was married to, had four young children and was seeing another woman on the side.

He's a busy guy. He's a busy guy, Harvey Sr. is in 1962. This woman that he's seeing on the side, her name was Marlene Perez. She was found naked and dead on the side. on the sofa in her apartment in December. Detective said Gibbs that she was beaten so severely on the head and face that she was unrecognizable. Wow.

So this was, it was bad. It was a very brutal attack. The pathologist said that it was a blunt object that had been used in the attack. Authorities thought it was most likely a piece of furniture or a piece from a piece. from a piece of furniture, some part of it. Like a leg? Yeah, maybe, like a leg from something in the apartment. But the elder Harvey Robinson was convicted of voluntary manslaughter in

1963 and he would serve time. Not a lot of time though, right? Because he gets out, he gets remarried and he has more kids. because he would meet and marry Harvey Jr.'s mother years later. But some of the crimes that we're going to talk about committed by the son Harvey, they would be eerily similar in nature to the crime that his father committed. And one thing that is definitely known, family members would come out and say that the son idolized the father growing up.

even though, you know, he knew everything, he knew the warts and all. You just have to wonder, though, what effect the knowledge of this crime would have had on a young Harvey Robinson, knowing, you know, what we're going to talk about when we describe his crimes. So we definitely wanted to lay that out there because I think it's important. Now, from now on, when I talk about Harvey, I'm talking about the junior, junior, younger Harvey. He grew up, seemed to be a pretty good kid. He was athletic. And he was good. He was good in sports.

He was like you, Gibbs. Like me? Yeah. Trackstar? Trackstar. Yeah. Singlet wearing wrestler. Oh, yeah.

Required uniform wearing wrestler. Try to find that the other day. Put it on for some hernia support. You got one leg in and you were like, ooh. Yeah. Those were the days. Yeah. Boy.

I guess I was a different size then. But he was. he was a good athlete. He was into wrestling, soccer, football, cross-country. I said, you know, very much like you. Yeah. Five-tool athlete started in multiple, multiple sports. Of course.

But unlike you, he also did pretty well in school. Oh, that's because I did excellent in school. I know, just mess. Now, he did receive some awards in school. They gave awards out for B. They gave some awards out. Yeah. Really?

In some districts, I don't know. For academic achievement? Yeah. Really? How did you get one of those? You had to be really good, didn't you? You had to be smart. Yeah.

Huh. But when all of your focus is on the athletics like yours was. Yeah. There's only so much time in the day, brother. I know. I was bored. But Harvey would get some awards for his essay writing, but there was a dark side to him as well. And it started to show up or definitely showed up when he was about nine years old.

He became known as a kid who caused problems. He threw a lot of tantrums. And his school counselors would come out and say that they thought he had a severe conduct disorder. He was displaying both emotional and behavioral problems. Severe conduct disorder. Basically he's saying that he was a pain in the ass. Yeah. Okay.

You can't get your shit straight. Yeah, I got you. All right. Whatever you want to say it. Yeah. But I think it was more. than that. And I don't know because I don't know if he was ever really diagnosed because back then were any of us really diagnosed back in those days? I mean, we were talking about the late

70s, early 80s. I don't know if it's as prevalent as it is today. Right. I think there's a chance that he was he had some form of mental illness maybe. Okay. But back then I think a lot of times people got labeled as a quote unquote bad kid right that's just a bad kid he can't act right yeah I can see that happening I truly believe that I don't know when and I may not be have my time frames correct but I don't know at what point in time and maybe sometimes we've gone a little overboard with some of the yeah the diagnoses but there you know obviously there was points in time where these things weren't diagnosed it was just this kid kid can't act right. He can't sit still. It's the whole reason I got held back in the second grade.

He's a bad seed. He's a bad kid. They just said, hey, hold them back. And a lot of kids weren't. They, they were having real issues. Yeah. Now, I don't know about Harvey, to be honest with you, because I don't know, you know, if he was ever diagnosed with it. So it's really just hard to say. Yeah, but you know, as he grew older, though, he did develop his temper. He did. Yeah. He had a bad temper and a quick temper, not just a bad temper. That's even worse, a quick temper. When you go from zero to boom. Yeah. You get a quick and a bad, which I guess if you have a temper, it's by nature, most people think it's bad, right? You don't say he's got a good quick temper. I got a happy temper. He gets happy. I'm really tipped up right now, but I hope you have a good day. So what I said really

doesn't make sense, but I'm going with it anyway. Roll with it, people, but he did. You're right, Gibbs. He had a quick, he developed a quick temper. and it was said that it didn't seem as though Harvey Robinson possessed the ability to differentiate right from wrong. So that's a bigger concern. It is. That's you. Right. That's a developmental issue. Right. If you can't determine what's right, wrong, good, evil, you know what I mean? It's an issue. And that's why I brought up the mental health aspect of this. It's not going to make anything that Harvey does better or easier. But it's a facet of the story. I just wonder, you know, what type of, if any, mental health issues he had that were undiagnosed. But it's not just trouble at school at nine years old. He starts getting in trouble with the law around this age as well. And from the age of nine till he was 17, he developed a pretty extensive criminal record. And we're talking crimes ranging from burglary, resisting arrest, This is eight years worth of basically doing whatever he wanted.

He's a juvenile, so he's getting caught, but it's really not a whole lot happening to him. But he's also abusing drugs during this time frame. And this drug abuse, as you can imagine, made the quick temper, made the anger worse. So it made Harvey even more volatile than he already was when he was using drugs. And he was very defiant towards authority. It seems like we just talked about this, Gibbs. You know, people that act out against any type of authority figure or anybody that's trying to control them, right, to tell them what to do.

So this included teachers. This included police. And he wasn't just defiant. He was openly threatening towards people. And it was thought that Harvey Robinson. enjoyed the fact that his teachers were scared of him. He wanted them to be scared. So we're up to Harvey Robinson being 17 years old.

And we don't know for sure when he started committing rapes, murders. Right. We talk about this on a lot of episodes. Sometimes people think that there are more than what people are put away for. That could definitely be the case in this episode. What we know for sure is that Harvey Robinson is going to make a choice on August 9th, 1992 that would change his life forever, change the lives of his victims, his victims' families, everyone around him, his family.

But we have to back up four days because we start on August 5th, 1992. Police in Allentown, Pennsylvania were called to the home of 20, 29-year-old Joan Burkhard. And this is around 12.35 a.m. Joan was a nurse's aide. She was single and she lived alone. When police got there, Joan explained to them how someone the night before around 11 o'clock.

So when we say the night before it is, but it's about an hour and a half, right before she's talking to police. Right. Because she didn't get home from her job until about 1230. But she says somebody had broken in, and had been inside of her home. She saw a fan which she knew had been on when she left.

It was now off. The screen on her sliding door had been ripped open. There was some money missing from the home. But other than that, not a whole lot else, right? Now, you say that, not a whole lot else. That's scary, right? Any time to think that somebody was in your house without your permission when you were at home.

or when you were home. That would be even scarier. But have you ever been broken into like that? No. So when I was a little kid, my parents were divorced by this time. I was at my dad's house. It was probably in the summer. I spent time with my dad a lot in the summer or on a weekend.

We came home from somewhere, and I don't remember all the details, but we had a back sliding glass door that went out onto the patio. We walked in. It was shattered. the house was ransacked. Really? That was, and I remember because I was very little, I was scared. I was very, very scared to think that, you know, is this person coming back?

How could they be in the house? I remember that very stinkly. Did you have one of those full patio, full glass patio doors in the back? Well, it was a sliding. Oh, a slider door? Yeah, those are so easy to break. Yeah, they really, it wasn't much to it. Yeah.

And, you know, not to get off topic here, but if you go, you know, into the East Area Rapist case, Golden State Killer, that's how he made entry. A lot of sliding glass doors. But getting back to Joan, four days later, this is the August 9th date, a neighbor of Jones called the police to make a complaint. The neighbor said that the stereo at Jones House had been playing nonstop for three days. and nights. Now, I'm not sure how you hear that for three days and three nights and wait till the third night to call. But it is a little strange. Maybe my temper is a little quicker than that.

Maybe. And this neighbor also said there was no answer when they rang the bell and that they noticed that a screen was missing on a window and had been for the three days. But that's not it. The neighbor also said that on one of the nights, one of the three nights, they thought they heard someone screaming. sounded like somebody was banging up against the wall. So again, I mean, I'm not blaming this neighbor, but it seems like they waited a little bit. Right. Like they could have jumped the, the gun or a little bit sooner, in my opinion. It sounds like it to me too. But I say that gives and then I would probably be the person that I don't like the medal, right? I'm not going to call the city on my neighbor because his grass is an inch higher than I think it should be.

Now, I hear somebody screaming. I think they're just in a fight. I don't know. So I shouldn't say that. I shouldn't be that judgmental because I don't know if I would or not. I don't think you would. I don't know if I would either. Is it because I don't care?

I don't know. But now, if I'm listening to a TV right next door on full blast for three days and nights. That's different, though. Yeah, that would be that you would have to call. Yeah. Or investigate yourself. Because something's not right. So the police arrive at Jones apartment. They see that the screen is missing. It's on the ground leaning up by the window. The front window's open. And the rear window screen is pushed out. And that window's open as well. They realized very quickly the TV was super loud. and as they get inside, they find Joan Berghardt dead. She was lying on her stomach in the living room in front of the couch.

And as described Gibbs, there was a massive amount of blood. And it was spattered all over the couch, the walls, the floor. Joan had been beaten severely on the head. And when they found her, she was wearing a shirt and a pair of shorts. But her shorts were ripped in the genital area and they were pulled up. So essentially, she was naked from the waist down. Yeah. She's wearing shorts, but they're, because they're ripped, they're pulled up.

I don't know if I'm describing that correctly. Oh, you are. I get the visual. It's not a good visual, but I'm trying to make it accurate. The police would find an open drawer in her bedroom and they found some black shirts on the floor. And on these black shirts, they found blood and they found white stains. They found another shirt on the closet door. And it had blood patterns on it that police bleed came from wiping down the murder weapon.

So this blood pattern was in such a way that they thought it could only have been made from somebody wiping something. Except for the area where Jones body was found, the rest of the. apartment was clean. It appeared to be an order. They didn't find any other signs of forced entry, so they concluded that the killer had to come through the front window and leave through the rear window. And then they performed the autopsy. And they found that Joan had been sexually assaulted. They were able to find 37 individual blows to her scalp. 37. Wow. That is a lot. That's rage. That is a lot of anger, right? Now, what we usually think when you, when you think about that many blows or stabs or whatever it is, but these blows caused massive skull fractures,

brain damage, and ultimately her death. But they described the force that had to have been used with the weapon as being so strong and deliberate that whatever was used, because I don't don't think they ever figured out exactly what was used to kill Joan. It caused the hair on her head to become embedded between the skull fractures. It's crazy, man. I hate to even use the words, paint a picture, but you have to get a sense of what type of vicious crime this was because we didn't make a secret about it up front. We're going to be talking about a very young individual who would ultimately be found to commit this crime. Now, they also found defensive wounds on Jones' hands that showed she tried to fight off her attacker.

They found semen stains on some of the items of clothing. And they were able to extract DNA from them, which later is going to be matched to Harvey Robinson. They also were able to do some Dexter, CSI type analysis. Oh, they were. With the blood spatter. Okay. And they were able to determine that the murderer was about 5 foot 10 and had stood directly over the victim as he beat her to death.

So again, an especially brutal murder. All right, Gibbs. Let's talk about a new sponsor, Hems. Listen, 66% of men lose their hair by age 35. But that's 100% for this guy right here. The problem that I had was when I first started. noticing that I was losing my hair. It was too late. It is so much easier to keep the hair you have than to replace the hair you've lost. Hems is a one-stop shop for hair loss skin care, sexual

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It's the daily supplement that you're missing. It can keep your mind operating at peak capacity so you can enjoy a better brain. So right now, for our listeners, you can go to myomax boost.com slash teacat today to save over 60% on OMAX Cognitive Boost. You'll get your first 30-day supply for just 1995 plus free shipping. That's myomaxboost.com slash T-Cat to get 30 days of OMAX Cognitive boost for just 1995, Myomaxboost.com slash teacat. Now on June 9th, 1993, so there's a lull here, right? We go from August of 92 to June of 93. Police are called to investigate a missing person in a residential

area on the east side of Allentown, Pennsylvania. So we're in Allentown. Allentown. Want to sing it, don't you? No, I don't. You thought about it. You looked like you ruined to do it. But we're not crisscrossing the country here, Gibbs. This is all happening in Allentown, Pennsylvania. Yeah, it really is right there. A neighbor had called police because they were concerned because their newspaper didn't get delivered. And they were worried because the newspaper girl was always on time every day.

And they were concerned because Charlotte Schmoier, that was her name, she never showed up that day to deliver their paper. Her card of newspapers would be discovered in front of another person's house, but there was no sign of Charlotte. So, police show up. They find the newspaper card as well. They also find a Walkman and headphones that were ripped apart from each other. And this was found between two sets of houses. And I remember those days Gibbs with the Walkman. Do you? I was big into the Walkman. The Sunny Walkman? With the Sony Walkman.

Did you say Sunny? I did say Sunny. Sunny. I was thinking of the yellow. Remember the yellow Walkman? Yeah, that was the Sony. Yeah. The one I liked was the sleaker.

That was kind of the bigger, sporty version. Yeah. I liked the sleeker, more metallic Walkman. You had one, though. Oh, I had one. Yeah. Cassette tapes and all. So police are investigating.

They're looking for this missing girl, Charlotte Schmoier. They find fingerprints on the window pane of the door to a, garage of one of the homes, and they quickly start to theorize that Charlotte struggle with an attacker and was abducted. So they fan out, they're searching in a heavily wooded area, and they find a bloody trail that leads them directly to the body of Charlotte. She was buried beneath some logs, her sweatshirt was pulled up, her pants and her underwear were pulled down to her knees. She had a large open wound on her throat and several other wounds beneath that. She also had wounds on her back. She had been stabbed in her back. She had a massive bruise on her right cheek. When they

autopsied her body, they found 22 stab wounds, 16 in her back, seven of which they said would have been fatal, six in her neck. And again, any combination of one or two. two of these probably would have been fatal. But we talk about a horrific crime. This is another one with a lot of what appears to be rage. Why so many stab wounds? There were some cuts and scrapes on her neck, which investigators theorized occurred as she was trying to protect herself, right?

To get away from this individual, thrashing, moving her neck, cuts on her shirt also showed signs of the fact that, you know, she struggled hard against her attacker trying to get away. The autopsy also determined that Charlotte had been raped before she was killed. They would be able to get DNA. But this time they also found some blood. So between semen and blood and all this DNA, it would ultimately end up matching Robinson as well. So this is not going to be a hard case to solve. We're not going to be talking about some lengthy whodunit trial. Right.

They found a pubic hair on her body, which would be linked directly to Harvey Robinson. Okay. So no issues there. No issues there. Again, this kid, I call him a kid. He's a man now. He's 18 years old. But 17, 18 years old, I don't get the sense that he's trying to cover his tracks very well.

or that he probably even knows how he would even accomplish that at that age. I just don't think I would have known that, Gibbs. Of course, I would have never done this stuff, but would I be better equipped to do it today with the knowledge I have? I have to say yes. I would say absolutely. But it's also pretty hard to get away with stuff today. Is it?

I don't know. What do you think? Am I off base here? 17, 18 years old? Impulsive, anger issues. I don't think this guy's a mastermind covering his tracks. No, not at all. So we had a pretty big lull between the first and second murders.

But in the same month, so June 28, 1993, Denise Sam Calley woke up. She heard noises coming from a closet by her bedroom door. She got out of bed quickly and she tried to make a run for it. but she was grabbed by Harvey Robinson. She was able to get away from him and run out of the house. But remember, I talked about it. Robinson was an athlete. And if you see pictures of this guy, you know, he was trim.

He looked like an athlete. Kind of like this? Like what I'm looking at right now? Yeah. A little bit. Okay. 30 years ago. Not easy.

He was able to catch up with her. And he grabbed her out by the sidewalk. He threw her down, flipped her onto her back, and was able to get on top of her, and he used his knees to pin her down. And Denise is fighting him, but he's clamping down on her mouth with his hand. He's trying to choke her. He's punching her in the face and in the mouth. But the description of what Denise did is amazing. I mean, she fought, and she fought very, very hard.

You know, she punched him. She bit him on the inside of his upper right arm. And this is going to come back to haunt Harvey Robinson. He ended up raping her, but he did not kill her. And he would ultimately end up leaving out the back door of the house. Denise was able to call the police, but she had been beaten severely. You know, in the face on her head, she had strangulation marks where he tried to choke her. Her lips were slashed and cut up. Police found a large butcher knife

inside of a napkin just outside of her bathroom. So I don't think there's any doubt what Harvey Robinson's plan was in this attack. He just wasn't able to carry it out. I think that he meant to murder this woman. Oh, absolutely. He did. And it just didn't go the way that he had planned. that he hoped for. Luckily, you know, thankfully for her, because she survived. But just two weeks later, on July 14th, 1993, a 47-year-old grandmother by the name of Jessica Fortney. Well, that's a young grandmother, by the way. It is.

Yeah. It is. Just for the record. There's, I know some, a lot of grandmothers that are in their mid to late 40s. Yeah. There's some young grandmothers. Yeah. But she has found dead lying in her bed in her bed.

inside her Allentown home, found partially nude with her shorts and underwear pulled down around her knees. Her face was described as swollen and black by the time they found her. Yeah, and she had like dried blood on her face and her neck. I mean, not good. Not good. This is again, going to be a very horrific murder. You know, police find blood spatter on the wall behind the couch and on the lamp next to the couch. And like in some of the other incidents, they found a window open with the screen missing. Yeah.

So a lot of similarities? Definitely. Jessica had been killed in the early morning, and they determined that it was a combination of manual strangulation and blunt force trauma. And when they did the autopsy, they found 50 different injuries on her body. Some were from being beaten with a fist.

I mean, how brutal. You know, everything's, I mean, like, being hit with a hammer, brutal, brutal. Sure. But the personal contact to just continue to beat somebody with a fist. A grandmother. Yeah, to sit there and just to beat somebody the death with your bare hands, right? I mean, you've been in fights, you know, what it's like to hit somebody. I fought you several times.

Yeah. And lived to tell about it. Yeah. Barely. Yeah, but you didn't get to hit me. I was in a fight with you, but I didn't get to hit you. Yeah. Yeah. I took the beating.

Yeah. But if, I mean, to keep beating somebody with your fist, I mean, you know when you won, right, in a fight. And something like this, it's just pure. It's just bad, man. Oh, you go back to when we were kids. You would get in a fight with somebody. Yeah. And usually you got a couple of hits in.

And when somebody fell down, that was it. Yeah, it was over. You had won the fight. You didn't keep pounding on the face. No. No, not back in those days. But to picture this man, child, man, child boy, whatever you want to call this 18-year-old, he's technically a man. Yeah.

On top of this 47-year-old woman. Right. raining blows down with fists. Yeah. That's hard to picture. It is. It really is. And we talk about a lot of...

We talk about a lot of things that really, if you think about it, you would consider much more violent with instruments and things like that. But for some reason, I'm with you. That picture, because of the personal contact of it, seems very brutal. There's no doubt about it. There was one injury in particular. They could tell that the person that had done this had a ring on one of their hands. And they theorized, kind of like I alluded to, that based on the blood spatter, Robinson held her down with his knees and essentially beat her head in. This is what this guy did.

And he did rape her and they would be able to extract DNA and they would match it to him later on. So again, these are open and shut cases. Yeah. He's not a sly, intelligent criminal. No, he's just careless. Yeah, going back to his younger days, he's angry. He's violent. He's quick-tempered.

I can't imagine that he's thinking much at all about the right or the wrong or the consequences. So again, you know, Harvey Robinson didn't murder third. 30 people, right? The number is not going to astonish anyone. But the brutality of the murders, they are. They are somewhat astonishing to me to think of, you know, this guy's age when he started, to be able to commit these, these type of crimes. It's, it's something. But we have to go back and talk about Denise, Sam Callie, because her and her husband, after the attack, they would leave that home for a while. And you can only imagine Gibbs. You would have to. How could you stay in that house? Exactly. After being, you know, savagely attacked. I couldn't. But eventually they do come home

on July 18th. And the very next morning, about 4 a.m., Denise wakes up hearing a noise. And I don't know how you would sleep a wink anyway. After going through what you went through, you're back in the same house. every single noise you heard would have you sitting bolting right up in bed. But after she hears this noise, their back door opens up and the alarm goes off. Now that scared the person away. They take off. So that's good. It is good.

So the alarm was there to scare the person off. Imagine the fear from Denise. I don't even know if you can. I don't know if I can even imagine what that would be like. But what happens is because of this event, the police stationed somebody at her home. Because they believe this is the person that attacked her coming back to kill her once and for all, to do what he set out to do the first time. Three days after this event, Harvey Robinson breaks into a home. and his intentions are to rape and kill the woman that lives in this home.

But as he gets inside, he gets up to the bedroom. Yeah, see, this one's messed up. This is messed up. So I'm just prefacing that right now. Yeah, this one's messed up. But go ahead. I'm sorry. He goes up to the bedroom and he sees the woman in bed, but she's asleep with her boyfriend next to her.

So Robinson instead creeps into the room. room of the woman's five-year-old daughter. And he takes this little girl, carries her downstairs, puts her face down, Gibbs, in a laundry basket full of clothes. Yeah, he's, he's evil man. And he would try to strangle this child. He would do some unspeakable acts that are hard to even imagine. It's disgusting. But she would survive. It's horrific to think about what she went through, but between the murders, between the attacks, and adding this on top of it, it just shows you how depraved Harvey Robinson was. This guy didn't care about anyone.

He didn't care who he hurt. He didn't care how old they were. He didn't give a shit about anything. And it's hard to imagine that there's people out there like that, but there are. And it scares me sometimes. to think about how many people are out there right now walking around. You know, you've said it before, Gibbs, right? Oh, yeah.

If you're on the bus, look down, maybe somebody on the bus is somebody like this, capable of this. Absolutely. Sad but true. The person in the cube next to you, you don't know what they do at night. You don't. You don't. It's a spooky, scary world. What's the old saying rose-colored glasses or something like that?

I've heard of that. I don't know what the saying is around that. But the world's just not that way, man. Right. You're looking at the world through rose-colored glasses. I think that's the same. Yeah. It's just not that way.

There's evil everywhere, unfortunately. Well, I can guarantee you the people in the early 1990s in Allentown, Pennsylvania, because I believe this is the first serial killer in Allentown. In Allentown. If I remember correctly, I could be wrong about that. But they never thought that this was going to. happen? Nobody ever thinks it's going to happen, and that's the problem. It's just, I mean, yeah, you can't dwell on things. You worry about things that could happen. You do the best you can

with protecting yourself, your family, and your surroundings. That's all you can do. But we know from every case we ever research, we find one, you know, we're researching this terrible, bad thing. And then while we're doing it, we're finding all these offshoots of other bad, terrible things that happened in the vicinity, right? I mean, I don't know how many times I've done one. I know, it scares you to think there's multiple people operating in the same area at the same time. Yeah, yeah, it's just, it's just messed up. All right, lock your doors, people.

So 13 days later, and I mentioned that Alentown police are hanging out at the Sam Calley home, right? Where Denise had been attacked, where somebody had tried to break in, they have a officers assigned at the house. And on this night, the officer that is there, his name is Officer Lewis, he sees a figure in the front window. And he's watching a hand covered in a black glove, take the screen off the window, and he sees this person open the window and enter the home. And as soon as this shadowy figure gets inside, the officer confronts him. And all of a sudden, all hell breaks loose. Shots are fired from both people. But unbelievably, neither one of these guys are shot. The officer's not shot, but neither is the intruder. And the intruder scrambles through the

kitchen, ends up exiting the house through the back door. Now, he didn't get shot, but what did happen was he cut himself on some glass. When he was trying to break in. As he was breaking into the house. So I said he opened the window, but I don't believe he did. I think he broke it. Broke the glass and then opened it and to get to the latch. Yeah, I think you're right. But because of this, he's forced to go to a local hospital to treat these cuts. And the officer, Lewis, he ends up going to the hospital early the next morning.

And he identifies Harvey Robinson as the man that he had seen at the Sam Calley home, the night before. And it had this altercation with. And Robinson, you know, had all of these fresh wounds. Had him on his arms. He had them on his legs. They could tell he had been cut by glass. But he also had a bite mark on his upper right arm.

And this is the bite mark from Denise, from the attack that had happened, you know, sometime earlier that I said, it's going to come back to haunt him. And it does. the police take hair, they take blood samples from Robinson, and they get a search warrant for his home. And when they get inside his house, they find a black ski mask and gloves. They find blood on a shirt in the laundry room.

They find blood in the bathroom, blood stained shorts and socks and sneakers, all types of clothes with blood on them. And you know it's not going to be very hard to figure out who's blood. that is and match it to one of his victims. But they also find a 380 handgun in his closet that had belonged to Denise and her husband. And he had stolen it during that initial robbery that we talked about before he attacked Denise. So he had actually been in her house three different times. So that was the 380?

That's what they found, a 380. Yeah. Yeah. They would be able to. match this gun to casings that were found at the Sam Calley home from the shootout the night before or earlier that day or whatever time it was. And another major thing is that Denise is able to identify Harvey Robinson directly as the person that had attacked and raped her. They would end up matching the bruise. I mentioned a very large bruise. I mentioned a very large bruise.

found on Charlotte Schmoyer's cheek, and they would be able to match it to some sneakers that were found in his room. Marks on her face in this bruise match the tread marks on, you know, these shoes. They would also match some marks that were found on the Walkman from where she was taken. So they interview Robinson on August 4, 1993. So they have all of the, this evidence, Gibbs, and like I've said a couple of times, this is going to be a pretty easy case to solve. You know, they've got so much evidence linking Harvey Robinson to these crimes. Robinson lived pretty close to where all of these crimes occurred. And just to give you a sense of how close. So the house where he lived was about four blocks from where Charlotte was taken,

about a mile from where her body was found, five blocks from where Joan was killed, six blocks from where Denise was attacked, and about two miles from where Jessica was killed. So this, we are, like, again, this guy's not hopping trains and crisscrossing the country. All of this happened in a pretty small radius of Allentown, Pennsylvania. Yeah, small town.

So you want to talk about front page news. I don't know. what else they would have been talking about during this stretch. This would have been blow the lid off type news, right, in Allentown. Absolutely. And even farther, farther out from there, but especially in the town where all this is happening. So Robinson was charged with three counts of burglary, two counts of attempted homicide, one count of rape, various counts of aggravated and decent assault and one count of carrying a firearm without a license. And this was just in relation to the Denise Sam Calley incident, or I should say incidents, because it was multiple.

For the murder of Charlotte, he would be charged with criminal homicide, kidnapping, rape, aggravated in decent assault, and in decent assault. for the murder of Joan, he would be charged with criminal homicide, burglary, criminal trespass, rape, aggravated indecent assault, and indecent assault. And he would be charged with those exact same things in the murder of Jessica Fortney. So these are a lot of charges against Harvey Robinson. And he had no way to get out from under these, right? what defense is going to be mounted in the face of all of this evidence? So Robinson ends up pleading guilty on February 28, 1994, to the charges related to the case of Denise Sam Cowley.

That part he pleads guilty to. The murder cases would be tried later that year. He was found guilty on all of the murder charges and all the other charges related to each case. And he received three death sentences for each of the first degree murder convictions. And the jury would give their reasons for that. You know, they talked about the aggravating circumstances in each case. The murders were committed while a felony was being carried out.

Robinson already had a history of felony convictions involving the use of violence. And when you get into the murders of Joan and Charlotte, you know, like we did, the jury looked at this as, you know, torture. I mean, these women were tortured, the horrible beatings that they had to go through. So besides the three death sentences, he got 40 to 80 years for the rape and attempted murder of Denise Sam Calley. He received an additional 57 years for the rape and attempted murder of the little five-year-old. And at this point, as he's being sentenced gives, he's only 19 years old. Committed his first murder at 17, sentenced by the time he's 19 years old,

with three death sentences and 100-some years on top. It's just hard to fathom at that age. But Robinson would appeal his convictions. and there's going to be a lot of things that happened after the initial sentences are passed down. Because in 2001, a judge vacated the death sentence that Robinson received for the murder of Charlotte Schmoier stating that the trial judge gave improper jury instructions. So that death sentence is wiped away, changed to life in prison. And then in 2005, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that death sentences for juvenile defendants were unconstitutional.

And because he was not 18 years old, yet at the time he murdered Joan Burdhart, his sentence for that murder was changed to life with no chance of parole. So by 2005, he's out from under two of the three death sentences. And then in 2012, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that juveniles could not be sentenced to mandatory life sentences without parole. So a lot of things are going in this guy's favor as it relates to rulings coming out of the U.S. Supreme Court. But there were three states that did not make this ruling retroactive. And Pennsylvania was one of them. Now, what the court said was that juveniles needed to be given a chance to argue that, you know, they should be released from prison. So in 2016, Robinson's defense team set out to do just that.

Now, this guy was never going to get out of prison, but they're still fighting to get his sentences lessened. So they have this hearing in 2016. He didn't speak at the hearing at all, but it was described by that point he had long hair, he had thick glasses. And he was sitting in, a wheelchair because of a back injury. But I don't think anything really comes out of this in 2016. I think this is a ploy. You know, this guy's never going to see the light a day. Even if he were able to get, you know, out of some of the death sentences, they're never

going to parole this guy. Whether he has life without parole, with parole, he's never getting out. And there was one thing that was really creepy when you research his name. and it's an old ad on a prison pen pal site called hotshotinmates.com. Hotshot inmates.com. Yeah, I found yours too, Gibbs. Did you find me here? Yeah, I found him while I was searching for his, I found yours too.

Yeah. It's not flattering. I got to be honest with you. I think you could have stepped up your game a little bit more when making your bio. Well, you share a cell with who I had to share a cell with, and you're not going to update that bio too much. You weren't such a hot shot at that point? You know, try to say low key. But this is what the ad said.

Hello! Exclamation point. Because you have to put the exclamation point. So it was, hello. Hello. My name is Miggy. Miggie? Miguel.

Yeah. I'm a death row prisoner at the state correctional institution of SCI in Pennsylvania. Due to my situation, many family members and friends have abandoned me. Really? That's a shocker. You violated and tried to kill a five-year-old girl. I can't imagine anybody standing behind somebody like that. Now, family is one thing.

It's hard to turn your back on family. But when you've done things that heinous, who, that would be tough. Don't you think, Gibbs? I can never support anybody that did something so heinous. I think it would be tough. I think it would be really, really tough. knowing the facts, knowing what this guy did, you know, especially friends. Oh my gosh. He says friends have

abandoned me. Those people ran for the hills the minute they found out, you know, everything you did. But he goes on to say prison, especially death row is lonely and can be very difficult to deal with at times. Won't you cry me a frickin' river? Yeah. Wow. It's supposed to be difficult. Exactly. It should be hard to deal with. I'm hoping to make a few. friends who will correspond with me. Anyone who wishes to write, please do not in any way hesitate. You should hesitate. You should hesitate in every way imaginable. But he goes on to say this, gives, some of my interests and hobbies are reading, writing, learning, in parentheses, studies. Okay. Reading, writing, and learning. Those are three of my hobbies. Yeah. Exercise. And in parentheses, he has

full body yoga Pilates educating others helping others etc if you would like to be a pen pal friend or just want to chat or whatever please respond signed to miggy so did you ever pen pal anybody no come on i don't why why would i don't you know me not looking for new people to write to you don't like to communicate period I communicate with the fans. I try to stay in touch with my friends, but I'm not looking to expand my circle of, you know. What do you want to call it?

It's not your circle of influence. I was getting ready to say circle of influence, but that's not the right word. It's definitely not your trust circle either. It's not the circle of trust. I'm not, yeah, I'm not looking for new people to have to talk to on the phone.

That's just not my gig. No. It's really not. You don't like anything. I don't like anything. You don't even like to reply to emails, man. I do. I'll reply to emails.

That's to be very specific in your email to get reply. Instant messages. I try to stay up with that. You try, but, you know, it's not your gig. Are you talking into a cup full of water? Literally. Literally. You are talking into a cup of a lot.

I wanted to see if it made me sound more echo, echo, echo, echo. So as we're wrapping up this case, I found some things about the experience. spends, especially as it relates to Harvey Miguel Robinson, but death penalty cases in general that I thought was very fascinating. And this is not a conversation about pro death penalty, against death penalty. I'm not getting into that. It was just all around the money involved. Because it talked about the fact that since Robinson got his three death sentences in 94, the taxpayers have had to foot the bill to the tune of about $200,000 in attorney's fees and costs for his post-sentence motion and appeals. That's a lot of money. And they had some experts talking in this article Gibbs about

the fact that when it comes to litigation in death penalty cases, there's no into it. It just seems to go on and on forever until that person is executed. And all of those bills are paid by you and I. Yeah. And the taxpayers. Yeah. And it was the National Coalition to abolish the death penalty that came out and said that most death penalty cases from the time that the person is arrested to the time that they're executed. It usually cost taxpayers, somewhere between one to three million dollars per. And most of that is because of, you know, how long the trials take and the appeal process and the attorney fees involved, all of that.

Well, I mean, it's just just ridiculous. It's a lot of hard-earned taxpayer money to go to this monster. I just think it's ridiculous. But that's where you get into the argument. Like I said, I don't want to make this a death penalty versus, you know, pro versus anti. Yeah, yeah, I get that. But that's where you get into the whole, you know, If we're going to sentence people to death, which I have no problem with personally.

How many times have we talked about research cases where it comes out later that this person's innocent? Oh, I know. It's happening more and more. Yeah, we see it. So if you're going to use this system, which is the system we have. Right. You better damn well make sure this person's guilty. Yeah.

It's one of the best systems out there. Yeah. No, I agree with that. But it does seem like a lot of money. ensure that all of their rights and all of their appeals are exhausted. Because when you look at it from the other side, this same organization, now, they're anti-death penalty. So they're obviously going to. Right. But if these facts are right, they say that the average costs for a life imprisonment. So this is an entire person's life in prison, including all the cost to house them and

feed them. Medical and all that stuff. Comes in about $500,000. Now, I think that's... For the life? That seems very low. That's low. So I don't know if these numbers are spun.

It has to be hard than that. It did come from an anti-death penalty coalition, so... Yeah. I'm hoping they're not making up numbers, but... I mean, I remember 15 years ago. They used to say it was about $38,000 per year, is what it costs a tax payer for someone to be housed in prison? That would seem about right.

So, I mean, if that's the case, I mean, the numbers, you know. Well, maybe they're saying the average person only lives. I guess I guess you used to figure out. Yeah, you got to know what data they're using. Yeah. But anyway, I found that interesting. I wanted to talk a little bit about it. Like I said, you and I don't like to get into pro versus anti-death penalty because

it's just a spiraling conversation. Right. But the money aspect, to me, that's something that I never really, I guess, thought that much about. How much money the taxpayers are actually footing. Well, it's such a high cost to run the prisons. And prisons aren't making any money. They're always losing, right? They're not a profit center, right?

So. Now, one thing I, one thing I have always heard that does kind of back up some of these figures is that it does cost more to execute somebody than it does to keep them in prison. I don't understand that. Well, see, I never understood it from the side of housing them and executing them. But when you get into these, because these guys are making, what, maybe $100 an hour, maybe more to defend these people. So all these appeals they're filing.

Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of appeals. I mean, it's just ding, ding, ding, ding. Every time they do it, we got to pay for it. So no matter what their hourly rate is. Well, and specifically in the case of Harvey Robinson, the judge would come out and say that they would actually scold the defense attorney saying, you're just filing frivolous things, things that have already been decided. You're filing them again and again, and he's racking up more charges for that.

So he actually got scolded for that. But anyway, I found it interesting, the money portion because it's something that we, you and I have never talked about it, something I never really thought about when it came to these death penalty cases. But that's it. That is the case of Harvey Miguel Robinson. Terrible. For such a young guy, and for anybody, this would be a horrible case. But when you talk about starting as a 17-year-old, I don't know. Maybe it's because I have a 17-year-old.

You do. I can't imagine. I can't imagine her. And she wouldn't, obviously wouldn't do that. No, no, but I can't even... Her friends are 17. Yeah, I can't imagine.

Her boyfriend is 17. I can't imagine... My boy just turned 18. I can't even imagine him. Yeah, these kids that we know doing something like this. It blows me away. All right, Gibbs, we've got some voicemails.

You want to do those? Let's do those. Hey, what's up? This is Robert from Victorville, California. I just wanted to say I'm team Fergie because it's starting to get embarrassed. with all the Gibby, Team Givys. So I thought it'd give you one.

Well, it does seem like a pity Team Fergie, but I'll take it. You got to take what you get, man. It is getting awful embarrassing. Oh, please. You just don't play all the Team Furgy ones. I don't. I don't. Because there are none to play.

Hi, Mike and Givie. This is Tamara calling you from Atlanta. I have called you guys before. I hope you're not sick of hearing from me. But just wanted to let you know how much to enjoy the podcast. I'm in Atlanta and we're finally getting some warmer weather here. It's about 80 degrees. And I know everybody's so sick of the cooler weather, but I know you guys are in Ohio,

so you're probably having a lot cooler weather than we are. But anyhow, I just finished the Wanda Beach murders. I'm a little behind on my episodes, and I'm ashamed of myself. But anyway, just wanted to let you guys know how much I enjoy it. And I look forward to the next episode. Thank you. Bye-bye. Thanks, Tamara for that voicemail.

Was that Tamara again? Again. Oh, my gosh, Gibbs. We're so sick of her. I tell you what. Voice mail after voicemail, Tamara. No, and you know what's funny? She says about the weather.

You would think it would be cool here? We went from like 30 degrees. We were bitching about the fact that it was like 30 degrees. Right. It's like 85 degrees all of a sudden. I know it. Whatever happened to like a transition period? I'm sitting here in my short.

and no shirt and just... I know, but I've been meaning to say something about it. Yeah. It seems inappropriate. Did you think it looked... With my kids here. Yeah, well, that's probably true. I probably didn't...

I should have thought more ahead about that. Yeah. Sorry. Hey, guys, this is Patrick from Chicago. I just wanted to say, good job on all the podcasts. I started listening to this a couple weeks ago, and I've just been absolutely obsessed.

You guys make it so interesting and easy to listen to. I'm a service slumber, so I do a lot of driving around Chicago and whatnot, and you make all the driving go a thousand times easier. Just want to say keep up the good work and keep your own time ticking. All right, Patrick, thank you. Yeah, we appreciate that.

Relatively new listener, we love that. Chicago, dub bears. Dub bears. Where was Patrick when I had the flood in the studio? Yeah, you could have used a little plumbing advice. I could have used Patrick on that one. Hi, Mike and Debbie. My name's Jacqueline Hoffman, and I just did a pledge on Patreon.

I absolutely love your guys' podcast, all of them. It's been a rough couple months, and your guys' podcasts has just kept me laughing and kept me going. You guys do a wonderful job. I have a suggestion on a case at the WVU Co-Ed Murders. It's a really interesting unsolved case. So keep it up. It's amazing. You guys, keep your own time taken.

So every now and then Gibbs, the stars align. Yes. where a voicemail ends up on the same episode where we give a Patreon shout-out. So lucky you, Jacqueline. So double shout-out there. Absolutely. Which is awesome. But she also supports criminology.

So very much appreciate it. Oh, that's cool. And thanks for the case suggestion. Yeah, we'll definitely look into that. Hi, Mike and Gibby. It's Nicole ringing from Sydney and Australia. I listen to your podcast. I really enjoy it.

I love how you've done so much research and how you deliver it. And I really enjoyed listening to the Australian David and Catherine Bernie, which I knew a bit about. I do have a suggestion. It's the murder of Rachel Barber by her babysitter Caroline Reed Robinson, who's since being released, but it's an interesting story. Anyway, thanks guys. And I love listening to it. I'll tell everyone about it. Bye.

No, we love our Australian listeners. The accent. I like the accent. You could listen to it all day. I could. So we'll definitely take note of that case. We'll probably go back to Australia at some point. Yeah, I think we'll probably have to go to the land down under again.

Hi, guys. I want to say your podcast is really amazing. My name is Jordan. I'm a new-ish listener. Everything you do is wonderful. Thank you. I just called in to say that. and also that I am a local of the Buffalo area,

and I would be interested in you guys possibly doing the El Pino Sanchez, a bike path rapist case. I've heard enough about it myself, but no one's ever done anything that in depth. So even as a local, I don't know as much as I probably could know. You guys do a wonderful job. Thank you so much. And whether you do it or not, I look forward to your next episode.

Keep your own time ticking. That's another great voicemail. Yep. We love it. Love it. And we'll check out that case as well. Hi, Mike and Gibby. This is Kaylee from Illinois.

Right outside Chicago. I would never normally leave a voicemail, but I've been listening to you guys for a couple months now. And I am upset. And I tell everybody about you and you're kind of. chemistry just cracked me up every morning on my way to work. So thanks for making my commute a lot easier. Have a great day, guys. Keep your own time sticking. Well, we love that, Gibb, when people get obsessed. I know, especially when they're from Illinois.

From Illinois. No, thank you so much for that. Yep, we definitely appreciate it. All right, Gibbs. I got a new segment. I do. I do. And it's called what Mike and Givie got in the mail this week. Do you ever want to talk to me about these before you just roll this note out? No. No. Okay. All righty. I just assume you'll be okay with it. I don't have a choice.

So we had Jamie McLaughlin actually mailed to us our sign from CrimeCon. Oh, really? That I guess we left. Oh, the one on the table? Yeah, the one on the table. Yeah. T-Cat, T-Cat Unsolved. That's cool, thank you.

Yeah, with a really nice note that said she enjoyed the meetup and she thought maybe we'd like to have the sign, which is really cool. And then we had Rick Hayes. And Rick Hayes is down in Lafayette, Louisiana. Yeah. And I think Rick's a Harley guy because he sent me a whole bunch of stuff. Did he really? And he might be like a Harley technician because he sent me something saying I'm now a Harley technician. That's cool.

A patch. So you got that official patch to put on your biker jacket? I got the official patch. I got the chips from Lafayette Harley dealership. I got a pin. I got some cool stuff. So appreciate that from Rick. So that's just a little segment that we're calling what Mike and Gibby got in the mail.

All right, Gibbs. That's it. That's all. For another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike and Gabi, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.