True Crime All The Time - Herbert Mullin

Episode Date: July 3, 2017

Herbert Mullin is a serial killer who murdered 13 people in California in the 1970s. But Mullin is unlike any serial killer we've ever covered. It was his reasons for committing murder that are so over the top they are hard to believe. Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the facts of this unimaginable serial killer. It is widely believe that Mullin had a serious mental illness. Was it this mental illness that caused him to do the unspeakable things that he did? Did he truly believe the reasons for his murders that he would ultimately give after his capture? You have to download this week's episode to find out!Visit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact and merchandise information. Follow the show on all of our social media platforms. Please rate/review the show on Itunes or your favorite Android app if it has that function.You can help support the show for as little as $2 a month by going to patreon.com/truecrimeallthetime.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

and welcome to episode 34 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime. Mike Gibson, Gibby, how are you? And I'm doing, you know what? It's been a shitty day today. I'm waiting for you one time to say. Yeah. It's been a shitty day.

There you go. One of those days. One of those days. So Gibby had a rough day finally. And I always wondered how I would react if Gibby. be said everything wasn't great. Time of slice and dice. Slice and dice.

The good thing is, so you had a crappy day. Yeah. But we're going to make up for it talking about a little true crime. That's right. And that always, I shouldn't say, lifts your spirits. I shouldn't say that. But, you know, we do like to talk about true crime. So hopefully that'll make it a little bit better.

All right, Gibbs. Let's start out with our Patreon supporters brand new. We have Aaron Peel. Gina Ubunko And Gina, if I Butchered that, I am very sorry But that was my best take on it We have Deb Predmore,

Melissa Swigart And Melissa jumped out at our highest level. We have Warner Hobart And those are our Patreon supporters. We appreciate all of them very much. Not only the new, But and everybody that continues to support us on Patreon. And then we had somebody support us on Patreon.

then we had somebody support us on PayPal Gibbs and that was Andrew Barker and Andrew's from the UK and that's awesome you know he's messaged me a couple times on social media saying how much he loves the show unbelievable that you know people from around the world are listening to us supporting us it's just amazing yeah we've got a pretty good uh listener base in UK yeah we really do So thanks again, Andrew, and thanks to everybody that supports us. It does. It means a lot. It really does.

So we've got a voicemail Gibbs. I want to play. Hello, Mike and Givie. It's Jess from Clemson, South Carolina. I was just calling to say thank you so much for a wonderful podcast. I look forward to Sundays every week and keep up the good work. Love you guys. So that's Jess from South Carolina.

Like she said, we know Jess. We interact with Jess a lot. We love Jess. I'd say we probably talk to Jess at least three, three times a week on social media, at least. Yeah, at least. She's very active on social media. And she's a Patreon supporter, has been supporting us for a long time. And she's hell of an artist, man, with her pottery.

Yeah. She's supposed to be sending us some pottery at some point. The pottery that we can drink certain things out of? I think so. Yeah. Because Jess likes to drink a beer every now and then. Yeah. As always, make sure you visit our website, true crime all time.com.

Contact information, social media information, merchandise, the Facebook group. True Crime All Time is exploding Gibbs. It's got like over a thousand members. I know that closed group is just every day. It's like I'm approving more and more people. I'm letting about anybody in, by the way. Wow. Yeah.

You got to be selective. Yeah. No, just kidding. But that group is really cool. It's closed. Your friends can't see that you're. You're talking about, you know, serial killers. But there's so much good information or good dialogue happening.

People are talking about the case. People are giving their opinions on solved and especially the unsolved. Yeah. About what they think could have happened and some great insight, things that we didn't think about when we were actually even doing the episode. We're getting great tips on some future episodes. Oh, that's true too. Yeah.

A lot of people with great recommendations on cases. If you haven't checked it out, you know, jump on over there. There's a lot of good conversation. Even some of our good other podcast buddies are on there. Yeah. Yeah, they are. And we love that. Check out true crime all the time unsolved.

At the time this episode drops or right around the time, we're doing a case on the new Bedford, Massachusetts highway killer. Yeah, that's a good case. A lot of interesting facts. It's one of our shorter cases because it's unsolved. There's just not a whole lot of information out there. So it's not going to run our standard time. Yeah, it's going to be a shorter.

Yeah. It's going to be a shorter runtime because once we got into it, there just wasn't as much information out there as there is on some of our other cases. But we thought it's a holiday weekend. Yep. We wanted to get two episodes out to everybody. So even if, you know, unsolves a little shorter, check it out. But it's a good one.

Yep. All right, Gibbs. Let's get into our case tonight. night. I was a good Catholic. I said my prayers every day. I went to church every Sunday. I made sure that I went to confession at least once a month. Between October 13th, 1972, and February 13th, 1973, I did in fact murder 13 people. So that is the voice of Herbert Mullen. And I got to say, Gibbs, this is one strange cat. That just sounded like somebody talking to you. at the coffee shop. Yeah, he was very matter of fact about it. Yeah. No doubt about that. Not much emotion. Mm-mm. But we might find out why as we get into this case. So Herbert Mullen, American serial killer, you know, may have killed as many as 13 people. And we're talking in 1970s here. And, you know,

these murders are horrible, just like they are with all the people that we talk about. But there is a lot of background in this one. There's side stories. I mean, just the reason why Herbert Mullen says that he killed people, just that alone is unlike anything that we've ever covered or anything I've ever heard of. You know, because if you believe him, what he says is that he commits these murders in order to prevent a major earthquake. So let it sink in a little and we're going to dive into it. But I've never heard anything like that. Bizarre, man. Yeah, so we're not talking, you know, lust killings.

We're not talking a sexual aspect. We're not talking. We're talking about somebody. And we're going to see, you know, Herbert Mullen had some very serious mental illnesses. I don't know how many. He was seriously mentally ill. There's no doubt about that. And we've got to talk about Santa Cruz County.

gives because this is where Mullen operated for the most part. He did kind of go out to another county. But what is so strange about this time is that he's not the only killer operating in this space at this time. That's not surprising to me. No, but what is surprising is you got another big name. So you have this guy named John Lindley-Frasier. He was a car mechanic. And you know, he killed, he was more of a like a spree killer. He wasn't really a serial killer, but he killed a bunch of people in 1970. And then you had the big name Ed Kemper that most people know. Now, he was a serial killer and a pretty well-known serial killer operating at the same time as well. I know we're going to do an episode on Ed Kemper at some point. We have to.

Right. But you have to think about all of this in the context of what's going to do. on all of these murders kind of happening around the same time and think about, you know, what type of fear would these residents have been under? I mean, just imagine the nightly newscast. They must have been unreal. All right, Gibbs, let's jump right into the early life of Herbert Mullen. He was born April 18th, 1947 in Salinas, California. Now, what's significant about this date, April 18th, is that it's the anniversary of the big San Francisco earthquake of 1906. So I already said that this guy commits murders because he thought that by doing this, he was going to stop the next major earthquake.

Kind of like a hero. Yes. He thought he was. Not a coincidence that he's born on the anniversary of the big San Francisco earthquake. Conicence? Coincidence? I think not. Somebody ask you a question.

Are we going to find out he wears a cape? No, no cape. No, no cross-dressing in this one. Really? No. And we're going to get into it. His childhood was actually kind of normal, very abnormal for what you and I normally talk about. His parents, Gene and Bill, and he has a younger sister, Patricia.

But like we said, he grew up in a relatively normal household. Now, it was very religious, and he would later say that it was too religious, too oppressive. And much later on, he's going to blame some of what he does on this upbringing. But what you don't have Gibbs is you don't have the abuse. You don't have any of the triad stuff that we talk about. Hell, I couldn't even find anything where, you know, he tortured animals. I couldn't find any of that stuff. Just the regular guy next door.

No, he really was up to a certain point. So his family ends up moving to a city named Felton. And this is in Santa Cruz County. And Mullen goes to San Lorenzo Valley High School. And he was very popular. You know, he had a lot of friends. He had a girlfriend. I mean, these are not things that we're not normally talking about Gibbs.

Right. He was doing better than you were. Yeah. Yeah. This guy's doing better than I did in high school. He played on the football team. And at graduation, Herbert Mullen was voted most likely to succeed. Well, he kind of did in one weird way.

Well, in his own way, he will succeed. Yeah. But Gibbs, think about it. How many people that we've talked about on past episodes of this podcast do you think were voted most likely to succeed? Yeah, not too many. I can't imagine very many at all. Maybe Scott Peterson.

Maybe somebody like that. He might have won Homecoming King or something like that. Maybe that's what he did. But some of these big-time serial killers with high body counts, yeah, I don't know for sure how many, but my guess is going to be zero. I can't imagine that very many of these people that we talk about were so popular in high school,

had everything going for them, voted most likely to succeed. I mean, we know most of them were antisocial, right? Yes. And I think that's the reason why I'm saying it. This guy was not like that. He was a very social guy. Everybody seemed to like him.

He didn't have any problems that we know of. That we know of. At this point in time. Right. Now, we're going to get into the problems that he's going to have. So in 1965, he's 18 years old. he's just graduated from high school. This is when something is going to happen in in Mullen's life that's going to change his course.

And what happens is he has this good friend named Dean. And Dean is killed in a car accident. And when everything is said and done, when the dust settles on this whole case, people are going to look back and say that this is the point that everything seemed to turn for Herbert Mullen. because Herb ends up building a shrine to Dean in his bedroom. So obviously he's very affected by the death of his friend. But we're not, when I say shrine, I'm talking about pictures and making this picture of Dean like the focal point

of the room and moving the furniture all around. So it's, it's all centered around this picture. I mean, I don't know. I got to paint it because it's a shrunker. shrine. Yeah, I'm seeing it. I'm visually seeing it right now. I want you to visually see it in your mind. But this is also the point where Herb starts talking about reincarnation. And this is going to come into play as well. You know, he's talking about it. He's reading about it. He's starting to take an interest in reincarnation.

And then what happens is he starts experimenting with drugs. You know, first with marijuana and then with LSD. Now those are two very different trucks. So, 1967, Herb graduates from Cabrillo College. And he gets a two-year degree in road engineering. Road engineering. I wonder if that's like... I have no idea. Road engineering.

Trying to figure out roads, grades, slopes. Hell, I don't know. Oh, yeah. Somebody's going to tell us, we should look this shit up before we say it. But then he goes on to enroll at San Jose State. But this is going to prove to be a pretty short stay for Herb. He starts to become active against the Vietnam War, which that was not unusual, right? We're talking early 70s.

Pretty common. That was pretty common, especially on campuses. He changes his major to philosophy. And he kind of goes hippie, you know, but again, this is end of the 60s getting into the 70s. This is still hippie time. That's what people were doing. Flower Child time. Yeah.

I mean, you remember it, Gibbs, right? No. What do you mean you don't remember it? No. I was young. I mean, you were protesting the war. Free love. My diapers?

You remember you were turning on, tuning in, dropping out. I know you remember it all. Absolutely. You were right in the middle of it. That's where I got my first tattoo. Now, every episode, I like to find a way to make you older and older than what you really are. Pretty old at this point. It's going to be, yeah, in a couple more episodes, it's going to be rough for you.

Dorothy, I'll be taking care of me soon. So in 1968, Herb is arrested for the first time. Now, this is just a possession of marijuana arrest. He gets probation, no big deal. He ends up getting a job at the Goodwill store. And this is when he applies to the draft board for conscientious objector status, right? doesn't want to go to the war. He doesn't believe in the war.

And a lot of people were trying to do this. What I found interesting was that his father actually wrote a letter on his behalf and the board granted him this status. So I don't know how often it actually happened, but Herb Mullen was able to get it. So the one thing Gibbs we're not going to be talking about in this episode that you and I talk about a lot is Herb's experience and time in the armed services. Yeah. Because he doesn't have any. And it's normally followed up with, they were asked to leave because of something,

something. Yep. And then they ended up killing a bunch of people. Yeah, exactly. But this is not going to happen in this case. Now, it's also around this same time that Herb has his first homosexual experience. You know, he had had girlfriends in high school. Actually, I think he had a long-term girlfriend in high school.

and at some point he starts experimenting with his sexuality. So we jump to the next year, 1969. This is where things start to go a little haywire for Herb. Because he's at this family dinner and he starts imitating his brother-in-law. And I'm not talking about the little kid shit that you do where you just pare it back what somebody says until they get so annoyed, they smack you. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about every word, every gesture, every move that his brother-in-law makes. Herb is imitating this.

And apparently Gibbs, this is a real thing. And it's known as echopraxia. And it can be an indication of schizophrenia. I did not know that and had to look it up. I did not know that. I had to look it up. I got that. That's kind of funny.

I got that. It was kind of funny. So right after this, Mullen ends up committing himself to a state hospital for about six weeks. You know, while he's there, he's diagnosed for the first time as having schizophrenia. And the doctors would also say that his drug use probably made it worse. And all of this, I mean, you know, all of these details are going to come back around. The doctors treat him with antipsychotic medication. but Mullen checks himself out, right? He probably should have stayed longer. Six weeks is a pretty good amount of time, but he checks himself out of the hospital without really completing any

treatment that would have helped him because I think he was there, but he wasn't there. If you know what I mean, Gibbs. He wasn't participating in the treatment that was designed to help him. Was that because he didn't think he needed it even though he checked himself in? I don't get that. You know, if you're going to check yourself in, why don't you participate? Well, he checked himself in, but I don't know if it, I think his family probably was urging him to, or people were urging him to based on the way he's acting. But I don't think he was actually involuntarily committed. Let's put it that way. Gotcha. But once he got there, because he spent six weeks, and like I said, that's not a short amount of time. But once he got there at some point,

he must have realized that this wasn't for him or he didn't think it was helping him. It was a state hospital. So I can't imagine it being too enjoyable. No, I agree with you. Every time I think about that, I think of, you know, like a one flu over the cuckoo's nest scenario. But this is just the first instance in what's going to be a very long line of both voluntary and involuntary stays and a whole bunch of mental health facilities. I mean, he's going to be in and out a lot over the next several years. And not only that, but he's going to get arrested several times too during this time period.

But again, the problem is going to come up that whether it's voluntary or involuntary, he never fully participates in the programs. He also doesn't want to take any of the medications on a regular basis that he's prescribed, right? So he has a mental illness. It's been diagnosed. He's not going through some of the the programs to help him. He's not taking the medication that's supposed to help him. But did he get a participation trophy anyway? Probably. Yeah. No, because it's the 70s. They didn't start that shit until. Oh, that's right. Much later. Much later. But I think if he had done both of these things, now I'm going out on the limb and I'm making an assumption, but I think if he would have done these things

and gotten the help. Now, I don't know what the help was like in the early 70s. I do have to say that. But what would it have done? Could it have helped him to the point where he would not have gone on to do the terrible things that we're getting ready to talk about? You have to ask that question. You have to wonder.

But there's one thing that's not in doubt. And that is that Herb Mullins had mental health issues. No doubt about that, right? He was in and out. He was diagnosed. many times by many different doctors. And to help drive that point home, he starts burning his Johnson with lit cigarettes.

Now, I'll know about you Gibbs, but that can't feel good. Oh, my Johnson's pretty tough. I'm not willing to say mine is to take a lit cigarette. That's kind of bizarre. Now, come on, man,

you know that would hurt like a mother. I mean, there's no doubt about it. Yeah, if you're weak. I don't care how it's going to hurt. That would hurt like a mother, absolutely. Who's going to do that?

Unless you have some type of serious mental issue, why would you do that? Yeah, I can't imagine. But, you know, I knew kids growing up that would burn their own arms, right? They would see how long they could hold it, the cigarette on their arm. Yeah, there was that game where you put your arms together. Yeah. And you dropped the cigarette in between and the first person to pull away. Right.

Yeah, I remember that stuff too. That's a big difference in putting it on your. Johnson's together. That's a huge difference. Yeah. Yeah, I wouldn't want anything on my Johnson. Plus, you're doing that by yourself. There's no game involved.

I don't know. Unless it's... How long can you hold it on there before I don't even know what would happen? You pull it away, I guess. But I just thought that was so bizarre that I had to mention it. So if you're listening and you play that game by yourself,

let us know. Let us know how that feels. Yeah, leave us a voicemail. So late 1960s, This is when Herbert Mullins starts to talk about hearing voices and receiving messages from unknown entities. I guess I'll say that. So Gibbs, we fast forward to 1971. Herb moves to San Francisco.

And he meets a man that believes in reincarnation as he does. And this man kind of starts to fuel her. because the man starts to believe that Herb is telepathic, and he takes it even much farther than that, saying that he thinks that Herbert Mullen was chosen by God to do something spectacular. Stop the earthquake? Maybe.

Yeah. I mean, he doesn't, I don't think that he says that. But the other thing, he's, just imagine, he's feeding into these things that Herb is thinking. because he also tells Herb that he thinks the voices he's hearing are real. It's just the same voices that told him to burn his tallywacker? I don't know. Okay.

I don't know how many different voices there are, but the point that I want to get across is this guy is fueling the fire. Right. And in a really bad way. You don't want to egg on somebody that's having these kind of thoughts, and this is exactly what this guy is. doing. But Herb's not out on his own for very long because the next year, he's back home living with his parents. He's not taking any of his medications. And he's at odds with his father in a big

time way. And this is kind of a central theme to this whole case. A lot of cases Gibbs that you and I do, these killers have problems with their mothers for real or imagined reasons. Right. Herb is okay with his mom. He really hates his dad. So more of a daddy dearest. Yes. This is more of a daddy issue type thing. But the other thing that happens at this time, and this is so, it's so out there, you cannot make this stuff up.

There is a prediction that a major earthquake is going to hit California that comes out around this time. So you got to wonder, Gibbs, what is that doing to a guy like? like Herb Mullen, who has already has these voices in his head, he already thinks that he's destined to do something to stop a major earthquake. Now all of a sudden, there's a real prediction. Now, you always hear that about California, right? Yeah, they're going to slide into the ocean. Right. It's going to break off and slide into the ocean.

It hasn't happened, thankfully. Yet. Because we have a lot of listeners in California. yet we hear it every year it seems like but put all of this together everything that's led up to this and it's leading down a very bad path right you can see that yeah there's no good outcome no everybody should be able to see that all these things are leading to something bad all right gibbs so this brings us up to the murders and we're on october 13th 1972 this is when Herbert Mullen commits his first murder. And Herb is just driving along in his car and he passes

a man named Lawrence White who's walking. And what Herb does is he pulls ahead, drives up a little ways, and he pulls over. He stops the car, opens up the hood and he sets this whole thing up to look like he's having car trouble. Lawrence White, while he, you know, he's walking, he eventually makes it up to Herb's car. And like a good person would, he offers to help. Like a bad person would, what does Herb do? He pulls out a damn baseball bat and he beats this guy to death. So this is his first murder and he's using a Louisville slugger and just welling on this dude.

Yeah, just beats him to death with a baseball bat. Wow. And just leaves his body on the side of the road and drives off. Right. So let's talk about this a little bit. because this is going to be a theme. Seems like rage to me. Well, it is rage, but you have to add the element of the mental illness and this whole thing about the earthquake.

Now, Mullen's next victim, this is October 24th. So we're talking 11 days later. He picks up a hitchhiker named Mary Guilfoyle. Mary was a student at Cabrillo College. And this is the same place where Herb earned his. two-year degree in road engineering that we couldn't figure out exactly what that was. Maybe it's where how you paint the lines on the road. I don't think you need a two-year degree for that.

You sure? How else you get that click, click, click, click, click, click, click sign when you sound when you on the highway at night? That's the reflector. That has nothing to do with the paint. That's the reflector in the middle. Someone's got to put those down too. That's a road engineer.

Maybe it is. I don't know. somebody out there is going to be a road engineer going, you sons of bitches putting me down. Yeah, I'd design a road that went through a mountain. That's what a road engineer is. But you would think something that important,

you'd probably need more than a two-year degree for her. I would think. That's why I was kind of... Maybe not back then. Yeah, maybe. That's why I was kind of having a hard time figuring it out because it's an associate's degree and engineering a road,

depending on what part you're talking about, to me seems like, a pretty scientific thing. I think you need to be like a civil engineer. That's what I would think. Who knows? Someone will tell us. To hell with it.

I can't find it. They're tell us. All right, Gibbs. We got off track. We've got to go back to Mary Guilfoyle. She's hitchhiking. Herb picks her up and he ends up brutally stabbing her in the chest and back, killing her. But he doesn't stop there.

He ends up dissecting this woman. almost like you would in a science class with an animal. Or like the days when you did the animals and the frog? Like the frog or something. He literally dissects her and pulls out her organs and is playing around with them, examining them. What is wrong with this cat? Well, he's mentally ill. There's no doubt about that.

Ultimately, he dumps her body on a hillside. And Mary's not going to be found. until February. So she's, you know, she goes missing. Now she's dead, but people don't know that. I mean, she's missing for a good chunk of time because they don't find her body until February of 73. It's about five months later. But there's a whole bunch of stuff that happens before her body's going to be found because it's just on November 2nd. Right. So he's operating very quickly. And this one Gibbs, this one is so strange. November 2nd. Herb Mullen walks into a Catholic church,

and he ends up confessing his sins to one of the priests. Now, this would come out from Herb Mullen's afterwards, obviously. But after confessing his sins, he murders this priest inside the confessional booth. Because the thought is that he's got to kill this priest. He's just told him that he's been killing people. That's my thought. But what the other thing that Mullen would say,

and this is really where we get into the earthquake talk, is he believed in his head, right, from these voices that the priest, whose name is Father Henry Tomey, that he was actually volunteering to be sacrificed in order to stop the earthquake. I mean, this is what Mullen thought, that the priest was basically saying, yeah, go ahead. I'll sacrifice myself so that the earthquake doesn't come. That's ate up, man.

It really is. I mean, you literally could not make this stuff up. No. Because people wouldn't believe it because it's too absurd. I mean, with some good LSD back then, but this is a, no. So I did, I did want to read this snippet from the November 4th edition of the Lodi New Sentinel newspaper. And it said that a Roman Catholic priest who was stabbed and stomped to death in a church confessional may have surprised a thief or been lured to the quiet sanctuary by his assailant. The article also goes on to state that a woman parishioner entered the church while the struggle was going on and she told the police that she witnessed a young man repeatedly kicking and stabbing the six years.

year old priest. So that's the newspaper article two days after the murder occurred. Now, the one thing they did have in there is a little bit about Father Henry Tomey. And he was described as a dedicated, well-liked man who was very joyful. I mean, everybody loved this guy. He was from Marseille, France. And it was said that in the article that he was in the French undergris, during the war working against the Nazis.

That's cool. Yeah, I found that very interesting. So Gibbs, we talked about Mullen getting this conscientious objector status and that we wouldn't have to talk about his military service, right? But the strange thing is, is that in late 72, after he murders Father Tomei, Mullen tries to join the Coast Guard. And he gets rejected because he fails. the psychological evaluation.

Shocker? Yeah, not a shocker. And then in January, just a month or two later, now we're into 73, he tries to join the damn Marine Corps. And this is something that I just can't figure out. He's not able to join because he won't sign the form that releases his criminal record. So, you know, he doesn't get in. But I can't wrap my head around this.

Gibbs, why is a guy that railed against the Vietnam War obtained the conscientious objector status? Why is he trying to join these different military branches while the Vietnam War is still going on? Yeah, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense unless he, unless he's, I mean, is he not making any money? Is he no last resort? I mean, does he need to be doing something? So this is his way of seeing if he can have a career and have a little bit of money because that would be the reason clearly he's trying to avoid war reaching out to the Coast Guard first

right he's not going to be placing to war with the Coast Guard that's good thinking they're here to protect the coastal waters of the United States but the Marine Corps yeah that's a different story that's flipping it all the way around man so now he goes to them where he you would be put front and center I think there's a lot easier ways to make a couple of dollars for a guy that doesn't want to go to war than joining the Marine Corps.

Yeah. I go back to the fact of, you know, the mental illness, things aren't, you know, the synapsis or whatever. They're not firing correctly. Mm-hmm. And in Herbert Mullen's brain, he's just doing a lot of things that don't make sense. I mean, aside from the fact that he's killing people. right, that's number one. But then these other kind of side stories of trying to join the military when,

I mean, hell, you get into the Marines, you're probably going to send, you're going to get sent over. Oh, yeah. There's a hell of a chance. 100% to me. So right after this failed attempt to join the Marines, he gets kicked out of his parents' house. This is going to lead him on a downward spiral because that same month, January 25th, Herb makes the decision that he's going to murder a man named James Gianera. And I didn't say it in the beginning, but because I wanted to wait.

But James Giannara was a friend of Herb's friend, Dean, that had died in the car accident. And Giannara is also the person that first got Herb Mullen into marijuana. So that's where Herb got his herb? That is where Herb got his herb. Yeah. But what's happening at this point in Herb's mind is he's starting to think that the drugs cause some of his mental problems. And I don't know that he's that wrong because there was a diagnosis or there will be a

diagnosis at some point that talks about schizophrenia that was maybe fueled by drug use or maybe brought on by drug use. So he goes to Gianera's house with the intent to kill him. But when he gets there, he finds out that he doesn't, Gianera doesn't live there anymore. There's a woman living there now by the name of Kathy Francis. But she has Giannaera's new address and gives it to her. And straight away, he goes to this new address and he kills James and his wife shooting

them both in the head. And after he shot them, he stabbed their bodies over and over. It's like overkill. Definitely overkill. Now, how bad would you feel if you found out that you gave a murderer the address to the intended murder victim? Terrible, man. Probably feel pretty bad about that.

But Kathy Francis is not going to have a chance to feel bad about it because what Mullin does, he goes back to her house. He ends up shooting her and her two sons who were only nine and six years old. Kills all three of them. Now, we talked about James Giannara being a possible drug dealer. At least he got Mullins drugs back in the day. And Kathy Francis's husband was not at the house when all this happened. But he was allegedly a drug dealer as well.

So when all this kind of happened, the police were thinking that all of these murders were drug-related because of the connection. You know, you got two drug dealers, their families are murdered. They have to have something to do with drugs. So less than two weeks later, Herb strikes again. And this is February 6th. And this time, he's at a state park called Henry Cowell State Park. and he runs into these four boys that are camping in the state park. So you have Robert Spector, he's 18, David Ollaker is 18,

Brian Scott Card is 19, and Mark Drabelbus is 19. And Mullen comes up on these four kids and he's talking to them and he's acting like he's a park ranger. and he's telling them that they have to leave. And what would come out later from Herb is that he was upset because he had been in this park earlier and a park ranger had asked him to leave for essentially doing the same thing that these four boys were doing. And he didn't feel like it was fair. So he was already upset about that. And then you get into the part where, and this is just so over the top Gibbs,

Herb Mullen would later claim that he asked each one of the boys telepathically if he could kill them. So I'm guessing that his ESP gave him the answer you wanted to hear too. Oh, because yeah, they all said yes. Of course. That's what I'm saying. This is so over the top. It's bizarre. If I wrote this in a movie script, you would laugh at me and throw it in the trash.

It'd probably be a big hit. So Herb has the go-ahead in his mind, right? Telepathically, he's asked these boys, if it's okay to kill them, they've agreed, and so he takes out his gun and kills him. Must have been a pretty good shot. Unless the boys just didn't run. Well, they had a gun. The boys were out in the woods camping.

They had a rifle. I think they were just taken so off guard by Herb Mullen. He was probably saying some. very strange things, I would have to imagine. And my thought is that they just laughed him off, right? I thought it was a kook. Yeah, this guy's a kook. You know, hey, get out of here, man.

But Gibbs, it doesn't take very long to draw a pistol and shoot four people. You know, it really doesn't, if you think about it. We don't know how close he was to them. The closer you are, the quicker that whole exchange will go down. Now, the four boys would not be discovered. until a week later and it was by the brother of one of the boys.

All right, Gibbs, let's get to the final murder and this is just a week later. You have to realize that he is operating very quickly. He's on a roll. He really is. But it's all around

this whole earthquake thing. He thinks he has to kill people to stave off this earthquake. So is he acting so fast because he thinks the earthquakes can occur on April 18th the same day he was born. You know, Gibbs,

I never thought about that and I didn't find that in any of my research where he said that, but that's very interesting. Because if you think about it, April 18th, like we talked about,

that's the anniversary of the big 1906 quake. But he could have thought in his mind that this next big one was going to happen on his birthday. Yeah, I never even thought about that,

but it makes a lot of sense. I just, I don't have any evidence to back that up, but I like the theory because he is operating and killing very quickly. You know, these murders are happening very close together. So like we said, February 13th, Herb is driving again in his car. And he would state that he would experience a voice that would tell him that he needed to kill someone.

and he does. He literally pulls his car over in the middle of the neighborhood, gets out, and he shoots this man named Fred Perez. And Fred Perez was out in his front yard, mowing his lawn. He's shot dead by Herbert Mullen. And Herb just gets back in his car and takes off. Now Gibbs, you and I have talked about this on a number of podcasts, right? This is broad daylight in the middle of a neighborhood.

Who in the hell is not going to hear that or realize or see? There's always somebody out in the neighborhood. You know, to me it's just bizarre because back then, I mean, people were outside, man. People were doing things. People, it's not like today where people were locked in their house. No, I think you're on to something because, you know, today we've got our phones and we have our computers and We have our 8,000 TV channels. Yeah.

Back then, you didn't have all that. Yeah, three channels and a dial phone. And there was a lot more reason to get out. Yeah. There wasn't as much, quite as much to do in the house. So, but even today, right? You can't just stop in the middle of a neighborhood and shoot somebody. Chances are there's still going to be somebody out.

But you're right. Back then, the chance was way greater. Oh, yeah. And there is somebody out. You know, one of Fred's neighbors hears and sees this whole thing go down. And she actually gets the license plate of Herb's car and calls it into police. And they act very quickly. I mean, the same day, he's found, he's pulled over and arrested.

And he goes pretty quietly. Now, he doesn't say anything, but, you know, he gets in the car and he goes off to jail. The very next day, they get a search warrant for his apartment and they find a number of things. They find a Bible. They find an address book. And it has James Giannara's address in it. They find a rosary that they would later be able to link to Father Tomey. And they find a whole bunch of articles about the murders he's been committing.

Right. So he's been clipping articles of his. his recent deeds. So not a very good Valentine's Day for him. No, you're right. It was Valentine's Day. So that's a lot of evidence right against him. You got an eyewitness that saw him shoot this man in the neighborhood.

Once they get into his apartment, they find something to tie him to Gianera. They find something to tie him to Father Tomei. And then on top of that, they find all these articles about the other murders. it's not too hard to figure it out. And Gibbs really, what it boils down to is in a span of about four months, he had killed 13 people. What a monster, man. Yeah, he really is.

Now, he's a different type of monster. And I don't know what you think about this Gibbs. He is a monster. He killed people. But like I said, there's no doubt that he was mentally ill. So do you view him in the exact same? light as you would somebody like Tommy Lynn sells or do you view him in a little bit different light or is it just he's a monster he killed people the end he's a monster he killed people at the end

yeah there's some of that for me if he was aware that he had an issue he chose not to take his meds he did so he chose what he did and he was aware of it well we're and we're gonna get into we'll get into it during the trial a little bit because I don't think it's any surprise when we get there that he's going to claim, you know, not guilty by reason of insanity. And there are a couple of things that come out that work against that fact. So they have Herbert Mullen in custody and eventually he confesses to all of the murders. And on top of that, he's telling the police the reasons behind the murders. He's saying that he's been told by voices in his head

that he needed to kill these people in order to stop this earthquake from happening. And this is how messed up it is Gibbs. He would point to the fact that there had been no earthquakes as proof. So all this does is this confirming in his head that what he's doing is the right thing. Yeah, I mean, that's what he's trying to tell the police.

this is proof. Look, there's been no earthquakes because I've been killing these people. I've saved the world, man. No, I mean, I know you're saying that, but it's true. I think that in his mind... Oh, absolutely. He's that delusional.

Yeah, he is that delusional that he believes that his actions of taking other people's lives has somehow saved a whole bunch of other lives. Sure. Save the world. I killed a few. I killed a few.

to save the masses. Yes. I truly believe that that's what he thought. So Gibbs, we talked early on about Herb Mullen and Ed Kemper, right? Two serial killers operating

in the same area, same time. And they're kind of caught very close. They're caught so close together that they end up in cells next to each other awaiting trial. Now, what kind of conversations do you,

think went on. That would have been interesting to be like the third person in a cell near them. You know, not a bad person. Just kind of like maybe you got pulled over and put in the cell for a drunken weekend. Can you imagine what you would have heard the topic of conversation be? Well, I did, I did see some things out there. So one thing I haven't mentioned is that Herb Mullen was 5-7 and Ed Kemper was a huge guy. I don't know, he was 6-3, 6'4 or something, like a real big dude. And there was some stuff out there about some of their conversations and more so that Ed thought that Herb was in, I think, nuts. Now, I don't know that Ed was, you know, a bastion of sanity. You know, six foot four, five foot seven. I bet Kemper made him his little

bitch. Well, I think, yeah, I don't, I don't know that they were ever in the same. same cell, but I think he was able to control Mullen even with the space. Better mind game action. Yeah, I don't know if he was playing the game or if he was just so intimidating because he was a very big dude. Kind of like our relationship. Right. Yeah.

I'm so intimidated by you. The Gibby factor. It's the Gibby factor. I mean, I think this was so strange Gibbs to have two murderers like this at the same time. And not to mention, we talked about the third killer that, I mean, the district attorney actually comes out at one point and says, we must be the murder capital of the world right now. That's how much was going on in the way of murders and especially serial killers. So they charged Mullen with 10 murders. And this was in Santa Cruz County because I think we kind of

of talked about it a little bit, but there were some other, there was three murders that happened in another county, Santa Clara. But the Santa Cruz trial started on July 30th, 1973. Mullins pleads not guilty by reason of insanity. Shocker. Even though he's confessed to the crimes, right? You know, that always gets me because the killer confesses, but then you get you, the attorney says, hey, you need to plead not guilty by reason of insanity. And, you know, actually this guy had a case. There's not many people that do, but... But we've heard it before with, well, the judge has forced them to plead not guilty for different reasons.

Because they just didn't want the plea to be guilty and they run through trial. We had that with the guy that did the beheading, the work beheading. Alton Nolan. Alton Nolan. And then there was another one we had. Yeah, it's happened a couple of times. Yeah. Well, I think judges are just, we may have talked about it before,

but I think they are, they just want to make sure that the conviction is going to stick, right? They don't want anything to come back that could, you know, overturn a conviction on somebody that they know is guilty. Yeah, so a little frustration in the beginning to not have a, a lot of frustration towards the end. So as you can imagine, the defense spent most of their time arguing that Mullen had a serious history of mental illness, which he did. I mean, there's no doubt about that, Gibbs.

We've talked about it and that he was a paranoid schizophrenic. The prosecution comes back and they're trying to highlight some of the things that Mullen did during the commission of the crimes, and especially trying to cover up some things as showing that that's something that a person, a sane person would do. But what is so strange in this trial gives, and it doesn't happen very often, Herbert Mullin actually takes the stand. And you very rarely see that in a case like this. And it didn't go real well for him, as you can probably imagine, he basically blamed everybody that he could think of. I mean, he blamed his teachers.

And it wasn't that he just blamed them for him turning out to be a murderer. He was blaming them for some off the wall things, talking about his next life that people didn't want him to be powerful in his next reincarnated life. I mean, there's a lot of stuff, strange stuff that would come out. of his mouth while he was on the stand. You know, he did talk about what we mentioned as far as the four boys in the state park that they had telepathically told him that it was okay for him to murder them. Can you imagine being on that jury, Gibbs, and hearing that?

You'd be like, this guy is mentally insane. What else, what other conclusion could you come to, but he's, Again, now, does that mean he's not responsible for the murders? And I think, you know, we talked about this last week on Unsolved where we had the Charlie Chopoff. Yes. And we had Mr. Soto was the person that they felt committed the crimes. But he was in and out of mental institutions. And the judge even made the comment as well as somebody on the health board that thought there should be two processes.

One, you're looked at just at the level of the crime only. Whether you're guilty or not. Yes. Yeah. And then look at your mental state. And what should be done with you based on that? Yeah. So some form of accountability, right?

Yeah. The thing that gets me, and I don't know if, I don't know if it happens as much as it used to, but where somebody is actually found not guilty by reason of insanity, and they're not really held accountable for the murders that they committed. Right? They might be sent to an institution for some period of time, but it's not going to be the same accountability that it would be for most murders. In true crime history,

is there somebody that most people feel pulled off the biggest charade ever and got away because of pleading insanity. I don't know, but it's a great question. Yeah. Let us know. I'm sure it'll be good fodder for the social media. So we talked about Mullen blaming people. He would also say that one of the voices in his head that was telling him to kill people was his father's voice.

So he's trying to blame his father somehow for getting inside his head. and making him kill people. He also blamed Santa Cruz Police Department for not keeping him in jail after he got arrested for marijuana. Okay. He just likes to blame everybody. Yeah.

No, he actually came out and said, I never would have killed anybody if you all would have just kept me in jail. No shit. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you, Captain obvious. Yeah.

So they go through this whole trial, Gibbs. And it had to have been a spectacle with him on the stand spouting off just a lot of stuff that couldn't have made much sense to most people. But the jury finally gets the case. And they deliberate for more than 14 hours. And on August 19th, 1973, they come back and they say that Mullen is sane and that he is guilty. of killing Jim Giannara and Kathy Francis. Now, I only said two people. So he got two counts of first degree murder for killing those two people.

Now, the other eight, he only got second degree murder counts for those. And basically, I think what it came down to Gibbs is that the jury thought the Gians, Gianera and the Kathy Francis murders, those were premeditated. And then all the other ones were not. Okay. I don't know. That's really the only thing I can come up with. That makes sense.

And then it's sentencing. He gets a life sentence with the possibility of parole. And you know we got to talk about that, kids. Yeah, I don't like that. I know you don't. You like that finality. Yeah. I want them to sit.

there known he'll never ever ever get out and that may be the case but we're going to talk about he's already had two parole hearings and he's got another one coming up so like you say you know you might want to interview him so if he gets out call our number call her number email true crime all the time i know you're always saying absolutely i'll come meet you now mullen was not convicted of the murders of Lawrence White, Mary Guilfoyle, and the priest, Father Tomey, those happened in Santa Clara County,

and he was never charged. Well, really no reason to go to that extent and go through the cost of a trial if you already have them on these other cases and you already got them in for life. Maybe. Well, I know. What if he gets out?

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, clearly, if he gets out, they could try him, right? Because there is no statute for limitations, right? There's no statute either. Yeah. There's definitely no statute. Statute.

No statute. It's out in front of the courthouse. It's called the Statue of Limitations. No, but you're absolutely right. There is no statute of limitations. So, you know, do you want the government to waste your, your money and try this guy, but then you have to think about the families

because I always think about that. Are they okay knowing that he's got a life sentence with the possibility of parole, even though technically he was not convicted for the murder of your loved one if you're one of the three. Right. If you're a family member of one of the three.

Yeah, I mean, clearly I would think the prosecutor for that county talked to them and ran down scenarios that could occur. Yeah, I would think so too. You know, and then so this is what we think is best. I agree with you. And actually, if you think about it, it might be smart use of or non-use of taxpayer money if you think about it that way. Right. And again, there's no statute of limitations. Yes. It's very astute of you to point that out. So we got to talk about a couple of parole hearings. And he has one in March of 2006. And I found it so interesting what he is telling the parole board.

He basically says that he wants to come home to Santa Cruz County. He wants to find a wife. And he wants to take some psychology courses at the local college. And he's telling him all these things about, you know, he's going to be hardworking. He's not, you know, be law-abiding citizen. and all of these things, but they're not having it. And they don't release him. But what happens is it basically goes another five years.

Because there was an article Gibbs in the paper that said that that was the maximum time between hearings. And I don't know if that's a California thing. I don't know if that's a county specific thing. but he does tell the parole board that he did kill all of these people. But he still maintains that he's not guilty by reason of insanity. And the other thing is he's dropped this whole earthquake thing as he's talking to the parole board, right?

He doesn't say anything about killing people to prevent earthquakes. All he talks about now is that, you know, it was the schizophrenia and his mental illness that caused him to kill. But it doesn't surprise me one bit gives that they didn't let him out because he just can't stop. He goes on to rail against his parents saying, you know, that they should be in prison. They should be the ones being punished, not him. They're the ones that that turned him in to what he became.

And again, you and I talked about it. from everything, all the research pointed to the fact that he had a pretty normal childhood. You know, this was not, like we said, some of the other people we talk about being sexually molested, being abused physically. I just, I'm not getting that part at all. Does like to blame everybody, but himself. No, he does. He really does. So then he comes up in 2011. And at this point, the district attorney is saying, this guy should never get out

because the risk that he would pose to the community would be unbelievable. And I want to read a quote from the paper that was from this district attorney. His name was Bob Lee. And he says that the horror of the murders that Herbert Mullen committed cannot be overstated.

The victim's families and friends, and the entire community suffered immeasurably by the actions of this man. It is clear that Mr. Mullins is incapable of morally and intellectually taking responsibility for these crimes. So again, the parole board denies his release and this time they extend his sentence for 10 years. So I'm not sure why the first time it was 5, but this time it was 10. But Gibbs, he's going to be up for parole again. in 2021.

So that's just four years. So you might be able to talk to him at some point. Might be able to. I don't think they'll let him out. No, I don't think they ever well. And I don't, you know,

again, I don't want to, I don't want to get into a whole mental health issue debate, but this guy committed some vicious, violent crimes. And he deserves to be in prison. Yeah, regardless of,

yeah, he shouldn't be out. Now, should he get help? Yeah. Sure. But he did commit these crimes, and I kind of look at it that way. All right.

So that is the story of Herbert Mullen. You know, he thought he was saving the world. Thought it was a superhero. By killing people. Earthquake man. Kept California safe from the earthquake. Didn't slide into the ocean yet. The problem is what happened when he went to prison?

Who's out, you know, who's saving California from this next earthquake? That's the problem. That's the problem. If you're out in California, I'd be a little nervous. So that's another episode of true crime all the time for Mike. And Gibby. Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.