True Crime All The Time - Jaacob Van Winkle

Episode Date: February 10, 2020

Jaacob Van Winkle turned to alcohol and drugs at an early age. His first documented run-in with police was at the age of 16. For the rest of his free days, Jaacob was in and out or prison. Some of his crimes were despicable but it seems as though his sentences were light and he was let out to create more misery. All of this led to Van Winkle's final crime which was the murder of a mother, 2 of her children and the sexual assault of a third child.Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the crimes of Jaacob Van Winkle. This is a guy that seemingly gave nothing back to society and felt as though he could do whatever he wanted with little to no repercussions. His final crime was shocking, ended three lives and wrecked the lives of countless people.You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

everyone and welcome to episode 169 of the true crime all the time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime. Mike Gibson, Gibby, how are you? Hey man, I'm doing good. How about you? I'm doing great. Yeah. Having a good week. Really enjoying the feedback from last week's True Crime All the Time episode. What a good case. Yeah, I think people really liked that George Sidini case for a number of reasons. It's a lesser known. I don't think a lot of people or many people at all in the podcast world have covered it. For me, the reason why I knew I wanted to do it was because of that blog.

Yeah. You know, getting that kind of insight into his mind and kind of being able to tell the story through the blog. Yeah, kind of like he walked you through what was happening. Yeah. Yeah, because you can insert,

you know, the timeline of the blog in with the timeline of, of his life and his event. So, you know, I'm glad everybody liked it. Yeah. We have some Patreon supporter shoutouts. So let's go ahead and give those. We had Ginny H.

Hey, Ginny. Susan Colombo. What's going on, Susan? Arisa Willie. Hey, Arisa. D.B. Wilburn. What's going on, D.B. Rebecca Morning Star.

The Morning Star is in the house. Johani Heppala. Ooh, Hepelah. James Pultney. Hey, James. Jessica Durfee jumped out at our highest level. What's going on, Durfee? We had Bo Phillips.

What's it going on, Bo. Michelle Swenson. Hey, Michelle. Garrett Ridley jumped out of our highest level. Hey, thanks, Garrett. Cindy. Just Cindy? Just Cindy.

All right. Jesse Garcia. Hey, Jesse. Petra Simmons. Thanks, Petra. Gwen Lindy. Hey, Gwen. Terry Snavely jumped out of our highest level.

Snavely, awesome. Yep. As did Ricky Scallender. What's going on? Ricky. And Susan Fenton. Hey, Susan. So all three jumped out of our highest level.

We really appreciate that. that. We had Katie Mullen. Hey, Katie. Amy Thrasher Hansen. Thrasher Hansen. And Jim, thank you. So a lot of new support. Very much appreciated. And then if we go back into the vault, Gibbs, this week, we selected Carolyn Markley. Hey, Carolyn. Been with us a long time. That long term support is amazing. It definitely is. We can't thank everyone enough. We had some great PayPal support as well. We had Jennifer Wormood. Hey, Jennifer. Ashley Tran. Hey, Ashley. Sini Wassinus.

What's up? Sini Wasciss. And Hildy Scumfoss. Hey, Hildy. So big thanks to all those folks as well. Yeah. Love it. So Gibbs, right now, we have a brand new episode out on True Crime All the Time Unsolved.

It's our 150th episode. Celebration time. We wanted to do something a little special. We chose to do the Unsolved Murder of Martha Moxley. That's a big case, man. It is a big case. And it's one of those. cases that, you know, has fascinated me for a very long time because of the components of the

case, 15 year old girl. Yeah. Great family. Bright future. They live in a, one of the wealthiest communities in the United States. Sure. They happen to live across the street from the Skakel family with ties to the Kennedys. Like some American royalty.

Yeah. I mean, if you think about it, it's one of the most famous families in the United States. Oh, it certainly is. Yeah. When you say Kennedy, everybody knows what you're talking about. You put them up there right next to the Gimmies. Right up right next to the Gibson's.

So it's a good episode. Make sure you check that one out. CrimeCon's coming up quick. First part of May. I know there's people that are out there thinking, should I go? Should I not go? Yeah. You should go.

Definitely go. If you're on the fence about it, if you are going to buy tickets at crimecon.com, just make sure you use our promo code T-Cat 20. Yeah. And you'll get 10% off your standard batch. Do it. I think on one episode gives I said 15% by mistake. Correcting it now? Yeah.

That was false advertising. I think it's 10%. 10%. All right, buddy. Are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time? I am. We're talking about a guy by the name of Jacob Van Winkle. It's a long name.

It is a long name. It's kind of a mouthful. Makes me think of the guy that sleeps by the tree or whatever. Rip Van Winkle? Yeah. Yeah. That guy. Because of the Van Winkle?

Because of the Van Winkle. Okay. Yeah. This is also a guy that spells his first name in a way I've never seen before. It's a little strange. Jacob with two A's together. Yeah. J-A-C-O-B.

Maybe it's Jacob. You got to really stretch it out. Gibbs, the one thing I will say is this is a dis- pickable guy who callously murdered a mother and her two children. We're going to get into all the details. Right. I think what people are really going to take away from this episode, this is one of those guys that had quite a long criminal history.

Yeah. And, you know, it's one of those where you're asking yourself, how did this guy get back on the streets? So quick and so often. To do what he ultimately. did and to even commit some of the crimes he committed along the way. Let's start off a little bit talking about Jacob. He was born on December 4th, 1982 in Indiana.

His parents divorced when he was young. We don't have a whole lot about his childhood. There was one article that talked about how Jacob won an award for the most radical car at his Cub Scouts, Pinewood Derby, as a little kid. article was like April of 1992. Jacob was nine years old. I did that. Do you remember the little pine wood derby?

I was never in the... Oh, you didn't do that. Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts. I never went scouting. Oh, yeah. They gave you this block of wood. Oh, I've seen it. I had friends that did it, and I saw.

I was over at their houses when they were working on it with their dads. I just never got into that. You just hoped that the car made it, you know, actually worked. I was never a uniform guy, I think. Weren't you? I think it's probably why I never. really worked fast food. I just don't like wearing uniform. So that one time at the post office. I didn't wear a uniform. Oh, you were one of those

ones that didn't have to wear a uniform. No. I just wore shorts and a t-shirt. Yeah. Got in my truck and that's what you still wear. And Jen, that's what I still wear. I haven't changed that much since I was 18, 19 years old. I mean, we think where we used to work, you know, on days that we moved to our own little office area, away from the rest of the corporation. Yeah, you would come in with shorts sometimes. Heck yeah, why not. Flip flops. I used to wear flip flops.

But getting back to Jacob, right? He grows up. He ended up being a very big guy. I mean, we're talking 6-4, 200 pounds. And this wasn't a flabby 6-4-200. This guy was in good shape. Yeah. Brown eyes, brown hair.

He did tend to shave his head a lot. I think it made him look. suffer. It can with certain people make you look a little scarier. Yeah. In his case, it did. In my case, it would not. It would just point out the fact that, oh, there's a middle-aged guy shaving his head because he's losing his hair. Yeah, same here. If I shave mine, I think people would get a laugh out of it. Look at that noggin on him. But the thing about Jacob was he developed some bad habits at a very early age, got into alcohol, got into drugs when he was a teenager. When Jacob was 16 years old, this was in July of 1999, he committed an armed robbery,

and he got sent to Juvie for six months. Yeah, there's the startup, the ramp up, the here it comes. The first documented. Yeah. I mean, there could have been other things. Yeah. This is the first time that he. got caught. Right. Probably. Can you imagine it? 16. Going to Jubey with some other really bad people.

Yeah. Because, you know, we talked about it the last few episodes of T-Cat and Unsold about people sharing cells and being in prison with other people. It's kind of like a little school. Yeah. You learn some things and, you know, probably not all of them are good for the rest of society when you get out. Yeah. Let's put it that way. I mean, you know, what is, you know, what is, designed to do is teach you some life skills. Right. You know, Jacob took classes that were designed to get him back on track, right? This is how you manage life. And to function out in the world. Yeah. So he had to take these if he wanted an early release who wouldn't do that. He complied with all of the requirements. The problem is when he got out, I think like a lot of people, right? He did whatever he had to do to

get out. But it's not like he took these life lessons that he learned and said, you know what, I was wrong. Right. I got to be a better person. Sorry, fellows, not today. I've got these life skills. I'm going to go practice them. Right. I'm going to go to school. I'm going to do whatever. I'm going to get a job. We're not going to rob that KFC today. No, not today. It's basically like he walked out the door through all the life skills in the garbage. Right. And went back. And, to his life of crime kind of on the streets, no doubt. This guy liked to party. And, you know, I've known people like this. They are constantly chasing some type of high. Right. Now, his was alcohol and drugs. Yeah. I know people that are chasing more like an adrenaline high,

you know. Or a combination of. Or a combination of, which is kind of dangerous too. But he definitely drank a lot. He did some street drugs. He even got into things like meth. Yeah, pretty rough. Meth will mess you up, man. It's not good for you. No, it's not good for your teeth either.

It's not on the pyramid. The government food pyramid. Yeah. Meth is not a part of it. No, not anywhere near it. And he did go on to have some more scrapes with the law, right? He's still a juvenile. We haven't even gotten into his adult years.

So he has, you know, some scrapes from time to time. but he doesn't do any jail time. That would happen years later. Now, Jacob was still living in Indiana in early 2004. He got charged with battery, but he was released. He didn't do any time for that. And it was just in August of that same year

that Jacob was arrested, charged, and convicted of the molestation of two children. And when I say children, Gibbs. We're talking about two little girls ages five and seven. Yeah. Wow. Mention it up front. This guy is despicable, horrible, brutal. You name it. Throw an adjective out there. It will probably apply to this guy. And he also received an additional charge of sexual gratification. And I'm not 100% sure what that is. I can speculate. Yeah. And I think most people can

probably figure out what they mean by that. Right. He pleaded guilty in November of 2004 received a four-year sentence. Now, we can debate that a little bit. Yeah. As a dad of kids, I would not be happy with just four years. No. This is not a kid anymore, right?

He's 22 years old, give or take. He's definitely an adult. He molests two girls. Yeah. Small girls. five and seven and does four years. It's not enough for me. No.

It's not enough. Not for me. So he got out of prison in 2007. He only served three years. Yeah, didn't even do the full four. Which pisses me off even more. The four years was bad enough, but he gets out in three. Right.

Then in 2008, he was arrested and charged with theft and sentenced to three years. Okay. This is where I have problem. So he can steal something, get a few years. years, but if he touches your child inappropriately or worse, he's just going to get around the same amount of time? It doesn't equate. No, it doesn't make sense at all.

You know, the computations do not add up in my head. Now, of course, he only served 18 months of his sentence. He got out on probation. Yeah. But this guy, he just didn't learn. Either he didn't learn or he didn't care because every time he got out, he just went back to the same thing, right? living that kind of street life, doing drugs, drinking to excess, and causing problems.

Yeah. Well, he was good at doing that. He was arrested for disorderly conduct in 2010, but he was still on parole. So even this arrest for disorderly conduct sent him back to prison. But he didn't serve very long. He got out in 2011. In September of that year, 2011, a local man named Michael Eaton went missing. His family was concerned.

They hadn't heard from him. They tried to locate him, but weeks went by. With no word from Michael Eaton, they kept going to his house, trying to find him. They eventually filed a missing person's report. The police got involved. They searched this guy's home. They couldn't find any. clues. Come to find out that Michael Eden had a roommate named Jacob Van Winkle.

Yeah. Police wanted to question him, but they couldn't find him either. Nowhere to be found. Later that month on September 23rd, police went back to this house. They're still searching for Michael Eaton. And this time, they had a report from the family who had been out there and said, something's not right. we smell a horrible odor. Yeah. I think they had a pretty bad vibe as well. Well, it's one of those odors that you and I have talked about before. Yeah.

It's very distinctive. So police get into the house. They get into the third bedroom, which was something like a storage room. And that's when they found the body of Michael Eaton. It was buried under some dirty clothes, trash, boxes, broken glass, you name it. Let's just been the dumping room for everything. Sounds like.

Yeah. Now, one thing police knew is that it wasn't like Michael Eaton had been there the whole time. They had searched this house. They knew which rooms they had searched. He wasn't in that room in previous searches. You know, at the time when they found him, there wasn't anything obvious, pointing to the fact of how Michael died.

The one thing they knew. is that they needed to talk to his roommate. Yeah, because, well, and where are you? Why haven't you showed up? How come you haven't called us to ask what happened to your landlord slash roommate? Well, yeah, it's not going to look very good to police, right? If you're the roommate, you're not worried about this guy that you're living with, you're renting a room from.

You haven't seen him in weeks. Yeah. You just think, what, he went on a Tahiti vacation. Right. And then how does he all of a sudden end up dead in the third bedroom of the house that you're supposedly living in? Right. And how come you didn't smell this? Yeah, that too. When the coroner performed the autopsy and the toxicology reports came back, it was determined that Michael Eaton had died of a heart attack. Somewhere around September 5th is what they believe. And I think from this point, police knew, right? In their gut, that Jacob Van Winkle had to have known something. Either he was involved in this guy's death or at the very least he had to have found this guy,

Michael Eaton, moved the body, moved it to where it was ultimately found. There's just no way that in that length of time he wouldn't have known something. Right. But Jacob's missing. We mentioned that. And his mom reported him missing on September 20th. She told police that the last time she heard from him was September 3rd. And even then, she didn't talk to him directly.

He left her a voicemail. That's a long time to wait to report somebody missing. But, I mean, this is an adult. So maybe, you know, I heard from you on the third in voicemail. I haven't heard from you for almost three weeks now. And we don't know what the frequency was of their communication. Maybe it was a once a month thing or a couple times a month. So police are looking for Jacob and they learned that he was camping out in the woods in Brown County, Indiana.

Good old Brown County. You ever been there? I don't know. What's in Brown County? It's got a little town there. It's kind of like a little Gatlinburg. People go there on the weekends. You never seen that?

It's got like antique shops and. I might have been there. I don't know. It's not that far from us probably. Cowboy hats and belt buckles and boots. No, I don't think I've been there. Okay. I think it's called Little Nashville.

Well, actually, I think it's called Nashville, Indiana. I think people call it Little Nashville. Oh, okay, because that would be kind of a cool name of a town, Little Nashville. Little Nashville. Police finally caught up with Jacob on September 24. I mean, they had put together quite a little manhunt looking for this guy. They found him hiding in the woods near his campsite. When they started to question him, Jacob told police that he was worried that they would think

he killed Michael. So when he found Michael dead, he moved his body out of the house for a period of time. Then he went back and got it. He brought it back to the house and hid it in that third bedroom underneath all that debris. This is his story. It's a lot of work. Then he went into the woods to hot. because, as he said, he was afraid police were going to think that he killed Michael.

First of all, that makes no sense. To me, now it might make sense to somebody that's whacked out on alcohol and drugs 24-7, but to me, that makes you look much more guilty. Absolutely. Then if you were to just call the police and say, my roommate died, I don't know what happened. Well, maybe he had a hand in this, and he was worried because he was on parole. Well, there are definitely a lot of people that believe that is exactly what happened, that this was, even though it was ruled a heart attack, that this guy somehow played a role in Michael Eaton's death. And he thought, oh, I got to do something.

Because why else do you need to move a body out and you need to move it back in? Why do you need to bury it? Yeah. Why do anything with it, right? Yeah. Just call the police and say, hey, I came home. My roommate was unresponsive. He's dead.

Yeah. That's why it makes no sense. And that's why people think he probably had a, had some type of, you know, hand in it. Yeah. So police aren't going to get Jacob, right? For anything to do with Michael's death, number one, it was ruled a heart attack. Right. They would have had a hard time making a case.

But what they were able to do was arrest him for violating his. parole. He had failed to report to his probation officer and he had failed to report his change of address. So he was returned to state prison where he remained until the end of January 2012. It's not a long time. He was there like six months. Yeah. Not even. Well, at least he did some time. Yeah, he did some time. But if you go back and you look at this guy, right? He's like 28 years old now. Go back to when he was 16 and look at him. his record. It's pretty extensive. He spent a large majority of those 12 years in the penal system. Yeah. In some way, shape, or form got mixed up with alcohol and drugs at a very early age,

got into robbery, theft, escalated into child molestation, and who knows how many other violent acts. Then for whatever reason, moves this dead body of his roommate, around. Yeah. It came out later from his family, and especially his aunt. I think his aunt came out and said, you know what? We're not really all that surprised by some of the things that he's done. Apparently, Jacob Van Winkle started exposing himself, fondling himself in public at the age of

16. And his family said that when he was 16 years old, police caught him in the act of exposing. himself playing with his, you know what, in a grocery store parking lot. Seems like a strange place to go at it, but makes you wonder about going to Kroger's or Wendixie or whatever. What's that kid doing over there? I don't know. Don't look. I don't want to know. I don't want to know. So everything we've talked about so far, right, about 12 years worth of his life, it's been bad. Yeah. There's really nothing that we've said that has been redeeming to society at all about the life that Jacob Van Winkle has led. It's almost as if he's a time bomb and he's ticking

and the ticking gets louder and louder. You can see the progression. Yep, he's progressing. His acts are getting more violent and more violent and it won't be long until that bomb explodes. In 2012, just a couple of months after being released from prison, Jacob decided to move to Colorado to live with his mom and stepdad. His parole officer allowed to move with the condition that he register with the local county sheriff as a sex offender and a parolee. Probably pretty standard. I would say very.

Yeah. You know. So Jacob Van Winkle has gone from being a problem child in Indiana to taking his problems with him to Colorado. Yeah. We're about ready to see. You're welcome. Colorado.

Here you go. He moves to Fremont County. Moves in with his mom. He found himself a girlfriend. But she broke up with him after one month. She realized, hey, you're no good for me, man. Didn't take long to realize that this was not the guy for her. The problem is she became pregnant during that very short relationship.

So within just like two months. of moving to Colorado, has a failed relationship, and his ex-girlfriend is pregnant. But Gibbs, Jacob didn't take this breakup well at all. He was not happy. And he made the decision that he was going to get physical. Yeah. With his ex-girlfriend. And remember, this is a six-foot-four, 200-pound behemoth.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, he's a big guy. Yeah. And Gibbs, what is so strange about this? Right? never right to strike a woman. Never.

No. But this ex-girlfriend later told police that she believed Jacob's reasoning for beating her was to try to convince her to come back to him. Yeah. What is wrong with this guy's logic? I love you so much. Let me beat you until you are convinced that I'm right. That I love you.

And you will definitely want to come back to me. Right. She says no, as most women would. So he takes it a step further. He tied his ex-girlfriend's wrists together with shoelaces, held a pillow over her face until she nearly passed out. And then he told her that he would rape her if she didn't take him back. Well, that's how you get your girlfriend back. That must be the way to do it.

So the beating didn't work. I'm going to try this. let me restrain you and then tell you. Threaten you with sexual assault. Yeah. After I nearly suffocate you. So obviously this woman lived and she was able to tell police what happened. Jacob was arrested for assault, false imprisonment, and attempted rape.

But somehow with all his other priors and the fact that he was on parole, managed to plead this down to a misdemeanor count of domestic. violence and received a whopping sentence of 18 months in the Fremont County jail. Yeah. Looks like a little, a little minification. For him, he's pretty used to it. Sure. I'm shocked.

I mean, literally shocked that with the record you already have and the fact that you're on parole, you beat a woman, tie her up and threatened to sexually assault her and you get 18 months. That's it. He got three years. theft. Let's not forget that. That's true. So again, it's not balancing out. They don't balance out and it bugs me. After he got out of the county jail, this was late 2013, he moved to Cannon City, Colorado. This is about 115 miles south of Denver. So he's out of prison. He's in a new city. And he chooses not to register with the county sheriff's office or the Cannon City,

police as a sex offender. What he does do is get into a legal battle with his ex-girlfriend over custody of the child, who has since been born. So of course, the courts will look at that and say, oh, you're such a outstanding citizen. Let me place that child with you. But look at his thought process. I keep going back to that. Why in the world would you think it's a wise move to go before a judge and say, hey, I should get this. Right. Judge is going to take one look at your record and say, hey, you're a piece of shit. I'm not giving you Jack.

You're doing all this bad stuff to women and kids? Why would I ever, ever do that? Towards the end of 2013, Jacob met Mandy Folsom, a 35-year-old single mother of three children. The two hit it off. And Mandy eventually let Jacob in two. to her house because at this point, Gibbs, he's telling her, I'm drug-free. Yeah. I haven't touched alcohol or drug since I got out of jail.

I'm a good guy, man. Yeah, I'm the good guy. But here's the problem, Gibbs. Mandy was not aware of Jacob's full criminal history. It's not like she had his rap sheet in front of her. So he moved into her house at 1113 Faye Street in Kemp. Cannon City. And this is scary because he's under the same roof with Mandy, but also with her 16 year old daughter, her nine year old daughter and her five year old son. Yeah. And I mean,

we don't have to go too far back in time to talk about the molestation charges against this guy, conviction. Yeah. involving two very small children. This is not a guy that if you knew that about him, you would ever let in your house. No, especially never around your kids. But this relationship was not a bet of roses. Mandy and Jacob argued frequently. This would later come out, you know, from relatives and friends. You know, friends also said that they noticed how Jacob acted around Mandy's kids.

And they didn't like it. especially the way he acted around her oldest daughter, her 16-year-old daughter. Her friends said that they also believed that Jacob was doing drugs. That's alarming, you know, to see that or to hear that. Both. Yeah. Yeah. But Mandy acted very quickly.

She broke up with Jacob and she made him move out, right? That's what a mother does. Right. You find out that something's not right. right and maybe your kids are in jeopardy, you pounds. The problem is Jacob won't leave her alone. He keeps coming back to the house saying that he's cleaned himself up. Right.

He wants another chance. Take me back, baby. Yeah, he's one of those guys. He just can't let go. It was in mid-February of 2014 that Mandy told Jacob, it's over. It's 100% over. stop coming around. I'm not taking you back.

Yeah. Leave me alone. But we know Jacob Van Winkle historically has not taken no for an answer. He's proved that. Exactly. And he's not going to take this rejection well. No. Then we get to March 8th and gives this is where this part of the story gets a little bit fuzzy.

Somehow Jacob Van Winkle. ends up inside Mandy's home on Faye Street. By his own account, he ends up sleeping in the basement that night. The problem is we don't know how he got in. We don't know who in the family knew that he was there. We just don't know. Right. Because as we're about ready to find out, there are people that are unable to tell

that part of the story. The next night, March 9th at 18th, 10 p.m. Cannon City police received a call from a teenage girl claiming she had been sexually assaulted in that she had just been able to escape from her attacker and also that her mom and sister were tied up in the garage. She told the dispatcher that the man was her mom's ex-boyfriend and he was drunk. He had been drinking all morning and afternoon. This teenage girl turned out to be man-been Mandy's 16-year-old daughter. She continued to tell the dispatcher that after Jacob raped her, he asked her where Mandy's

prescription pills were and he took some. This is when Jacob passed out and the 16-year-old daughter was able to get loose and escape to the neighbor's house to make this 911 call. Police arrived on the scene along with an ambulance. the 16-year-old girl was sent to Thomas Moore Hospital to receive care and she was given a sexual assault exam. What she told police was that on the morning of March 9th, Jacob Van Winkle walked into her bedroom around 9.30 in the morning and asked her to come down to the basement with him. She said no. He came back later at noon and was much more aggressive.

He told her that she needed to help him with the TV in the basement. She decided to see what was wrong with the television. Gives, I think, because she wanted this guy just to leave her alone. Yeah, just figure what's the problem so you can just stay away from me. She didn't want anything to do with this guy. She said as they were walking down the stairs to the basement, she could smell the alcohol. She could tell that he had been drinking a lot. Once they got to the basement, she said,

said that he grabbed her from behind and put a kitchen knife to her throat. He tied her hands behind her back with shoelaces. He bound her feet with packing tape and shoved a sock in her mouth. Then he used the packaging tape to hold it in place to essentially gag her. Right. And that's when he sexually assaulted her. She said that Jacob told her he had a gun and that he had no problem using it. He also said he had no problem killing because he had killed before when he lived in Indiana. Interesting. Kind of goes back to Michael Eaton, possibly. Gibbs, I can only imagine, the horror that this 16-year-old girl went through.

Oh, what a nightmare. It had to have been a nightmare. But then she started to be very concerned for her family. Right. Because she doesn't know where her mom. mom is. She doesn't know where her younger sister or her younger brother are. She asked Jacob, you know, where's my family? Well, he tells her. Yeah. He told her that they were tied up in the garage. Jacob Van Winkle cut the 16-year-old girl's feet free, cut the, the binds from her feet because he

wanted her to take him to her mom's prescription pills. We already talked about it, but this is her telling the story of what really happened. And her mom always hit the prescription pills because that short period of time when Jacob did live there, she had to hide him because she was concerned that he was taking them. So she had her own little stash of where to put her prescription pills, so Jacob didn't take him. So she took him to where the pills were. He took some, he made this girl lay on the bed in the bedroom and he began to sexually assault her again. This is when he passed out. Yeah.

And this was when she was able to escape from him, right? Her feet are free. So she can get up. She can run out of the house. She made it down the stairs and out the door to the neighbors. The neighbors let her in. This is when she made the 911 call. Can you imagine being the neighbor?

I can't imagine any of this. No. But to your point, it would be very startling. Yeah. To have a 16-year-old neighbor girl run up to your house, ring your doorbell, you think, okay, I don't know who this is. Right. You open the door and she's gagged. Yeah.

Her hands are bound. I'm assuming no clothes or limited clothes. She's in bad shape. Yeah. For sure, you would be startled to say the least. Now we need to go back. to the Fay House, right? Police are on scene. They enter the house to check on the mother and the two other children. The door is open because this girl had fled. Right. Police located Jacob

Van Winkle on the second floor in a bedroom. His boots are laying on the ground next to the bed. There's a knife inside one of the boots. Police check the rest of the house and gives this is when they discovered a nightmare. Oh, yeah. They found the mother, Mandy Folsom, lying on the floor of the basement bedroom. Her hands were bound with packaging tape above her head. They next located Mandy's five-year-old son, Mason, lying face down inside the crawl space opening with a large amount of blood around him.

The nine-year-old daughter, Marissa, was found on her. bed with a sock in her mouth taped around her head. Her head was extremely bloody and she was covered in several blankets. Gibbs all three, Mandy, Marissa, and Mason had been murdered. They'd been stabbed to death after being tortured. But it wasn't hard, right, for police to find their suspect. And they arrested Jacob Van Winkle. 31 year old Jacob Van Winkle was arrested. He was just arraigned in court. He's facing charges of first-degree murder, kidnapping, and sexual assault.

Police say it happened last night around 8 o'clock and the 1,100 block of Fay Avenue. That's in the northwestern part of the city. KRDio News Channel 13's Bonnie Silkman was there for Van Winkle's first appearance in court today. She joins us now live from the home where it happened with new information in the case. Good afternoon, Bonnie.

Good afternoon, John and Brittany. We just saw Van Winkle handcuffed in court. He was read all of his charges, and the possible penalties that could go along with those charges. The maximum being the death penalty, the minimum being life in jail without parole. Now, as for his relationship with his family, it turns out he was actually staying in the family's home that's just down the street here. The sheriff says he was a good friend of the mother. And as you can see, it's still a very active situation. The police are still investigating and the caution tape is still up.

Now, police tell us that it all started last night when they received a report. of a sexual assault by a teenage girl. The teenage daughter then ran away from the home to a neighbor's house. She is the only survivor. Police say when officers got to the home, they found three people dead, a five-year-old boy, a nine-year-old girl, and their 35-year-old mother. Please tell us they arrested Van Winkle in the home. And they say they haven't seen anything like this happen in Canyon City for decades.

Gibbs, I imagine police in that city hadn't seen anything like that. Yeah. And if they had, it had been quite a long time. I think in that city, they're used to housing people like that because they have that big prison there. But I don't think they're used to having their own residents go through something like that. The actual crimes occur in that city. I think now's a good time to talk about the victims. Mandy Lynn Folsom was born on May 30th, 1978 to Don Wessel in Jimmy Stottler in Colorado.

She graduated from Cotea Paxie High School. then worked with her mom doing accounting and payroll services. Before her death, Mandy had just completed courses to become a nurse's assistant. She was a member of the Elks Lodge. And this is a place that she went with her kids quite frequently. Yeah. They had a lot of fun events together at the Elks Lodge.

It was said by friends and family that Mandy loved her kids very much. They were her entire world. The same also went for her pets. Mandy was known for helping people in need, and she took in stray animals, helping them whenever she could. She loved being outdoors. She loved camping. She was a huge fan of the Christmas holiday.

As are you yourself? I am myself. Mandy's mom said that the two of them talked several times a day. So obviously, they were very, very close. Yeah. I think a lot of mom and daughters are that way. Well, I think if you're a mom, you hope that that's the type of relationship you have with your daughter. Yeah.

It may not be like that at certain points in time, you know, as they're growing up. But you hope as they become an adult that that's the type of relationship you have. Mandy's daughter, Marissa Lynn Stottler, was born on October 27, 2004. Family member said she was made up of, quote, what one would put an angel together with. and said that she had long, beautiful hair and glowing blue eyes that affected those around her. Marissa just loved everyone. She was a very loving person. She loved her pets, her family, especially her brother, sister, and mother.

She was a jokester. She enjoyed pulling pranks. People said she was an amazing storyteller. But she really loved to wear her Easter dress, not just on Easter all the time, so much that that's what she was buried in. She just loved that Easter dress. It was her thing. Some kids are like that.

Some kids, you know, get into like a Halloween outfit. Yeah. And they just want to wear it all the time for, you know, or a princess dress or. Superman cape? Superman cape. Mason Lee Kaufman was born October 21st, 2008. He too was a loving kid. He loved big trucks.

He loved Spider-Man. family, his sisters. He had just started kindergarten. And, you know, really gives, this is a five-year-old kid. You know, at the time that he died, he was just starting to experience life outside the home. Yeah, it's just starting really to understand some things. Right. The world was starting to open up. He was exploring and starting to understand how things work. Family and friends said that he had an infectious a smile and an irresistible laugh. He loved to play youth football. The services for Mandy, Marissa, and Mason were held on March 15th, 2014, followed by a

graveside service at Fairview Cemetery. You and I like to focus on victims. Sure. When we can, because let's face it, a lot of the times their stories get pushed aside. They do. Because the focus is. often on the killer. The news does it that way.

I mean, that's what grabs people. Yeah. I just never want to forget, you know, in this case especially, three people lost their lives, a mother,

two very small children, and also can't forget that a 16-year-old girl went through hell. Went through hell. That's a perfect way to say it. I was trying to grasp for something to say, and I think that's perfect.

And it has to live with that. Yes. Not only what happened to her, but what happened to her family. Yeah. She lost her entire family, her immediate family. But now I think it's time to jump back to the case. We know that police arrested Jacob. The day that they questioned him at the police station, Jacob told police that he did go to the house the night before. He said that he watched a movie with the two younger kids till about 10.30 p.m. Then the kids, then the kids, went to bed. He said he hung out until about 1 a.m. watched some TV and then he left the house to go over to a buddy's place to get some meth. Got to get your meth. Well, you do have to get your meth, but it's strange to tell the police that you went to go get meth. Yeah. Conveniently at 1 o'clock. Now, maybe by admitting the fact that you went to get meth, you might be thinking the police are going to say, hey, why would this guy tell us he went to go get meth? Yeah, unless he really got meth.

Unless he really got meth. Well, one reason you might say that is because you don't want anybody to think that you murdered these three individuals. Right. He then told police that he returned to Mandy's house around 3 a.m. And that when he walked into the home, he saw the dead bodies and he freaked out. But he said he didn't call the police because he was. wanted by police, and he didn't want to go back to jail.

We heard that story from him before, haven't we? We have. We have. But he wasn't done, right? He's got some explaining to do. He went on to say that he decided to move Little Mason's body to this crawl space. And as he was doing that, he found a bloody knife, wrapped it in some sheets and tossed it in the crawl space too. That just seems like a weird thing to do.

Well, what's running through my mind is, okay, number one, why are you telling police this? Right. How are you going to explain your reasoning behind your thought process of why you felt you needed to move this little boy's body in the crawl space? Now, the one part of it I do see is trying to explain maybe why your fingerprints or something like that would be on the knife. Right. It's because they found them. I wrapped them in a towel. but the rest of the story just makes no sense.

He then told police that he covered Marissa in several blankets to hide her body so that he didn't have to look at it. Okay. I mean, we know this guy's full of it. Right. But I'm just gauging his stories one by one. That one doesn't seem as off the wall as why he would move little Mason's body.

Yeah. But now he's got to deal. with the 16 year old's accusation. And basically what he does is admit to it. He says that, yeah, he talked her into coming downstairs to help him with the TV. He bound her. He sexually assaulted her. Now, he tried to claim that she didn't resist him.

And I hate to say this Gibbs, but he tried to make it sound as though she was a willing participant and even enjoyed it. Yeah, that's messed up. He's messed up. He is. He is. He's very messed up. And his thought process is so off the wall that he probably knows he has to admit to certain things, but he's going to try to wiggle his way out by changing some of the details to make it look like it wasn't as bad as it was. This was more consensual than not. not is what he's trying to plant in the police's mind. I'm sure they know he's full of shit too.

Absolutely. He also went on to tell police that he knew that the 16 year old would escape and he was okay with that. Sure. It was all part of this. Yeah. Because I have nothing to hide. No.

I didn't kill anybody. So she escaped. I mean, I thought she was into it anyway. So it's all good. Police asked Jacob about this friend that he said he's, went to see between the hours of 1 and 3 a.m. He refused to give that up. So he's going to say he went and got meth. He's going to say that he, you know, did this, this and this. But you know what? I've got my scruples, my morals. I'm not going to think on my meth dealer. In a way, man. My meth dealing

friend. Even if he could give me an alibi to keep me from going to prison. I'm not going to do it. You know why? Because he doesn't exist. That's why. Yeah. But the one thing that he was adamant about was that he didn't murder anyone, right? He had nothing to do with the murders. Police brought up something that the 16-year-old had told them, that he bragged about killing before back in Indiana. He denied that too. What he couldn't deny or work his way out of, though, was that police found on him. when they processed him, dried blood on his hands, arms and clothing that ultimately matched up to the

victims. It's hard to get away from. It is. That's why you weave that story he tried to. That is another reason, right? You know you have something on you. So you've got to make up a story that has you in contact with the victims. On March 20th, police file charges against Jacob Van Winkle.

He was charged with 14 counts of murder in the first degree, six counts of sexual assault, two counts of child abuse resulting in death, two counts of second degree kidnapping, one count of assault in the first degree, one count of sexual assault on a child, one count of sexual assault on a child by one in a position of trust, one for unlawful sexual contact, and one for sexual contact on a child, by one in a position of trust. He gives us 29 felonies in total. That's a lot.

As it should be. And we mentioned that part of Jacob's reasoning for not calling the police was that he said he was a wanted man. Right. He was. That part was true. Yeah. He had failed to register as a sex offender by a certain date.

And the sheriff was actually set to arrest him. on the 10th for failure to register. The very next day. Yeah, the day after the murders. You wish it was the day before? Day before. During the same time frame, he also had an active warrant from Fremont County for violating a protection order that his ex-girlfriend took out on him.

So he just all the way around, one of the worst people ever. Yeah, he's just a bad guy. Yeah. And when I say that, you know, what I mean is it just seems. as though this man had no regard for human life whatsoever, whether it was the taking of a life or a sexual assault, beating a woman up. He just didn't care. None of it mattered to him. And he seemed as though he wasn't afraid of jail. He wasn't afraid of the consequences because he never had been. He would do whatever he wanted to do. Reckless. Get caught. They'd let him out. And then he'd go right back

to doing that and even worse. But here's something that we don't always talk about, you know, especially when it involves the murder of children. These were children that attended school. Yeah, had friends. Had friends. You can imagine what it was like at that school.

When the teachers, the other children found out that these kids had been murdered. You know, the day after the murders, the school offered. counseling for students who needed it. Nine-year-old Marissa, her brother, five-year-old Mason, and their mother, 35-year-old Mald Folsom, were killed in their home Sunday night. Caradio News Channel 13's Bonnie Silkman went to see how Canyon City schools are supporting

students during this difficult time. It's new at noon. That's what the little girls are thinking is she was here. Now she can't come to my party. She can't have a sleepover. And so it's very difficult. It's something nine-year-olds shouldn't have to hear that their classmate and friend isn't coming back to school. I don't think you're ever fully prepared for this. It's a tough situation. As professionals were trained in crisis intervention, but truly I don't think you're ever really prepared for it.

This is Marissa's school. Inside, many are feeling confused and uneasy. We were hoping that some of the anxiety, some of the stress was going to be. to alleviate. But that's not the case. I think what he's seeing is more students, maybe more students are being traumatized or, you know, they're processing it, waking up again with Marissa. She's not at school. Meanwhile, young students at Washington Elementary begin the healing process with their counselors. We were working with a group of about six little girls who were classmates of Marissa's. And one of the little girls, speaking of where they're at, processing-wise, her thought process was, she can't come to my birthday party now. And it was heartbreaking for us.

I think that's a good clip to play gives because it really adds some context to, you know, what these little young students were going through. And, you know, one of the counselor who was talking mentioned it, right? They process it differently. Each kid probably processes it a little differently. One of the girls hadn't fully processed it. And, was thinking, oh, she can't come to my birthday party. Yeah. Not really, I'm never going to see her again. It's sad.

It's really sad. When you get into the case against Jacob Van Winkle that the state had, it was pretty solid. This guy was not going to get away from the murders and, you know, all of these charges against him. There was a problem, though. To prosecute and achieve a conviction, it would require the 16-year-old sexual assault victim and lone survivor of this thing to testify on the stand. That's a lot to ask.

It also would mean that a defense team would be able to, you know, cross-examine her pretty harshly, probably. They probably come at her kind of aggressive. Given his story about how this sexual assault occurred and his version, I'm using air quotes, you maybe can get an idea of what their angle might have been and some of the questioning that would have occurred. It would have been, I can imagine Gibbs, like reliving the nightmare for this girl. It would have been traumatizing all over again. Yeah.

Some of the girls' family expressed concerns about her emotional well-being and what this would do to her if she had to testify. I know as a parent, I would be extremely concerned. Yes. And leery about wanting your child to have to go through that. Exactly. On the other hand, the county prosecutor wanted the death penalty and felt like they had the case to get it. But because of all of these circumstances, they approached the defense and they offered up a plea deal. The plea deal would take the death penalty off the table instead of death, Jacob Van Winkle would get life in prison for each murder.

It would accomplish the goal of, you know, keeping this 16 year old from having to testify and relive and take this cross, which you know, would have been brutal. Right. It would also save the county hundreds of thousands of dollars. Yeah. There's always a fat angle as well. There is. I mean, I think if I'm looking at it and weighing the two, the emotional damage that this girl would have gone through far outweighs the money,

but you can't deny that it's part of it. A spokesman from the prosecutor's office made the following statement. Quote, generally, if you can avoid a full-blown jury trial in any area of the law, You want to do that because it's expensive, it's risky. Who knows what might happen? And then you have an appeal. If someone pleads guilty, there is no appeal. That's something we don't always talk about either.

Right. You know, appeals, especially in a death penalty sentence, they go on and on. They're numerous and they drag out forever. I think in many cases that, too, causes the surviving victims. and the victims' families to have to go through this torturous reliving. Rehash, rehashing of events over and over. My life stopped on March 9th. That was my best friend.

Mandy was. Those kids were everything to me. But Van Winkle's conviction came as a result of a plea deal with the death penalty off the table. Even if we were to seek a death penalty as a sentence, the chances that that execution, would never actually take place. As we've seen in other cases of this nature, the chances of an individual actually being executed, being very low,

taking all those risks into account and looking at the alternative, the defendant pleading guilty and receiving these three consecutive life sentences, we determined that the best course of action was to accept the guilty pleas. Something that does not sit well with Mandy's father. Our lawmakers and our governor are flat ignoring it

and about the only thing that they have success on is making sure that the murders that were never going to get out, get more fresh air. So I thought that clip was interesting because you hear from the prosecutor. Right. But then you hear from Mandy's father. Yeah. Who was not in favor of the plea deal at all. Well, I think the family had two sides. Yeah, they were split.

Yeah. Obviously. There was a portion of the family that was. okay with the plea deal because they didn't want this 16 year old girl to have to go through this again. But you can hear from his own words. Mandy's father was not okay with it. He's want a life for a life. I understand. I actually understand both sides. Yeah. I really do it. And I don't have a problem. Now, I'm not the dad. No. But I, you know, as an outside observer, I don't have a problem at all with what the prosecution did. This guy's never going to get out.

Right. He's never going to see the light a day. Now, you could make the argument, I think as Mandy's father was, that this guy shouldn't be breathing. Yeah. The problem that I have with it, and the prosecutor kind of talked about it. It would be, what, 20 years, 25 years in some cases before the person is actually put the death. Is actually executed. So I don't know.

You can make an argument on both sides. You almost say hopefully his. reputation gets leaked out on the prison, you know, that he did do some bad things to some kids? Well, I'm sure that he's not living on easy street in prison. Let's put it that way. But I know you always hope, and I think that's a bad word, but there's all part of you, and I don't want to put words in your mouth, but there's a part of you that is okay with the prison justice, prison justice that occurs in some situation. Yeah. Now, Gibbs, let's be honest. If something bad happens to this man in prison, is there anyone going to be

sitting around saying, oh, man, I really feel bad for that guy. This guy was a horrible person. I won't have a problem sleeping. So in the end, Jacob Van Winkle agreed to the plea deal. He accepted life in prison. On Monday, September 29th, 2014, Jacob was sentenced to three consecutive life terms with no chance of parole. This was for the three murders. the sexual assault, the child abuse, kidnapping and assault, so many different charges. What I found interesting is that Jacob Van Winkle was made to watch a slideshow of his victim's live. And then he had to hear from the victim's family members.

That part I'm used to. That part you hear in a lot of cases where family members are allowed to get up and voice voice their displeasure and say what they want to the offender but to be made to watch a slideshow maybe it happens more than i'm aware of yeah i just don't hear about it that often what i wouldn't mind seeing is uh mandy's dad he's kind of a big guy let him have like uh five minutes one-on-one you and your rogue justice you're always for outside the criminal system justice i'm just thinking Mani's dad could have did a few things. Well, I will say this.

I guarantee you that he probably thought about it every single day. Absolutely. Of what he would do to this guy if he was allowed 10 minutes alone in a room with him. Yeah. And you know for a fact you would too. Oh, yeah. Well. You'd rip somebody's head off if they hurt your family.

As you would too. Yeah. Mandy's dad and stepmother. Gibbs. I know they at one point were looking at moving out of the area. Mandy's mom was looking to do the same thing. I don't know if they have or not. I think it would be hard. It would be hard. A lot of memories. Yeah. There would be too many memories in that area. I could see the need to, you know, move away. And that would go for the surviving daughter as well. My heart really goes out to her. Absolutely. For everything.

that she's gone through and everything that she'll have to go through. Yeah. In, you know, processing and working out things that, you know, will probably stretch on for many, many years. Yeah. But that's it. That's the case of Jacob Van Winkle. Like we mentioned, horrible guy.

I think what I really take away from this case. And I do take it away from quite a few, unfortunately, is the issues he had at a fairly young age, the warning signs were there. And they were more than warning signs. I mean, he was literally convicted a number of times, some, you know, sexual molestation of kids. Those are bad things. I get the thefts and I get the drugs and I get all that. Right. Those are warning signs, but to not take the sexual molestation of kids more seriously than it was. And it just seemed as, you know, throughout the years, as he got older, he never changed. No.

I actually thought he got more cavalier. Yeah, he got more cavalier. He got worse, obviously, because it culminated than murder. Yeah. But to me, this was just a guy that didn't care about the consequences or the consequences never outweighed his need to want to do X. Whatever it was, he felt that he needed to do. And not wanting to give him any excuses.

I just don't know the impact of meth on somebody as well. You know, when you use meth, what does that do? Well, it's not good. No, it's not good. I just don't know how it plays on that. You know, does it... I mean, I think drugs affect you and... Or they affect different people in different ways.

But at the same time, I think there's a lot of people that are probably doing meth that aren't out molesting kids. Right. So aside from the drugs, I think he also had... you know, something going on with him that was, I'm going to do bad things and whatever happens happens. Yeah. I'm not worried about the consequences.

And now he doesn't have to worry. No. Because he'll die in jail. He will. He'll never get out. Maybe sooner than later. Right, Gibbs, we've got some voicemails. You want to check those out?

Yeah. What's up, guys? It's Will Vedder out in Buffalo, New York. But I was listening to, I'm literally in the middle of episode 110, out of the Clifford Burns. And I freaked out when you guys said it was in Niskeuna because I'm originally from Schoheri, which is this real small town outside of Albany. And I'm super familiar with Niskeuna, and I had to chuckle and give you was like,

oh, you got to, you know, rate the snow off of your roofs because, you know, your roofs will cave in and it's so true. And we get so much snow out in Schoharry. And moving to Buffalo, everybody's like, oh, you guys get all this snow and it's nothing compared to being out in the valley. But I just wanted to give you guys a huge shout out. I can't decide whether or not I'm Team Mike or Team Gibby because you guys compliment each other so well.

There's no Gibby without Mike and vice versa. And you guys just rock and you get me through all of my days and I drive literally like a thousand miles a week between all of my jobs. And I just, you guys get me through all of that and I don't mind spending the money on gas as long as I can listen to you guys. So, you know, keep your own time ticking. I give you all my love. And I can't wait to hear more from you guys, though.

Peace out. All right, appreciate it. That's awesome. We're lying about having to shovel the snow off of your roof. Get up there and get busy. I've done it. Hi, T-Cat fan. My name is Rose, and I live in Kansas.

I'm calling to tell my big sister, Carolyn, and Oklahoma, happy birthday. It's on Monday, and I thought her with something much for this birthday. I'd like to hear it announce to me, guys. Say, Austin. I've already heard of your podcaster in the song, so I've been enjoying it, and she's been listening while she crochet days. Thanks, guys. Well, happy birthday, Carolyn. Yeah, happy birthday.

Big listeners, we appreciate it. Yip, she's probably crocheting right now as she hears her name, and she's like, oh, my gosh. Maybe making you a t-shirt, crochet t-shirt. How do you crochet a t-shirt? I don't know, but it can be done. That you're going to wear in the summer? You might. You like that kind of thing.

You like to feel the breeze. Hey, I'm not the one who wears fishnet in my second job, so let's just put that out there. Don't wrong a little fishnet. Hey, guys. Okinawa, Japan. I listen to your podcast, love it, really fun. I thought I'd show you an international one about a guy named Isay Sagawa. He was a piece of garbage, a Japanese guy who went to France, as an exchange student, killed a French woman, ate her.

But then his father got some lawyer, the guy to, like, say he was criminally insane, brought him back to Japan, where they decided he wasn't insane. And then he became a bit of a celebrity, thanks to, like, I don't know, Japanese TV. You know, the way the Japanese TV was competitive. There was a certain time and place. But because of that, he became a celebrity. He's written books. He's still free. He's old now, but still alive.

But, yeah, just that was something you guys might want to look into. And, yeah, I hope you do. Okay, bye. Yeah, Sagawa is a messed up dude. He's definitely on the list. And we have not gone out to Asia. We have not. We've been talking about it.

Yeah. But, you know, with our pronunciation skills, I don't know. I mean, you got your sushi skills and names down. I love sushi. But that's about it. My giving, this is Nick and Seattle. Hey, wanted to say, I've been listening to about four to six year episodes a day since I found you guys, getting close to caught up. But absolutely loving it.

You guys' research and presentation. With that being said, I wanted to scroll up an episode suggestion. It's Dr. Linda Belford Hazard. Well, she wasn't a doctor. She called herself one, but this woman was absolutely sadistic. She essentially starved, robbed, tortured, and then murdered a lot of people and got away with it for a very long time. And these people actually paid her to do it under the ruse that her treatment was a cure-all for any and all disease. I mean, it got so crazy that the locals actually started calling her wellness and her starvation height.

There were stories of people wandering down the road that looked like Holocaust survivors trying to get away from this woman. I mean, she killed in multiple states, and she even went over to New Zealand at one point. I've been completely obsessed with this case since I found out about it. It'd be awesome to hear your guys to take. Again, really appreciate what you guys do. Love the podcast and stay safe. Keep your own time to take it. Well, that one is interesting because I'm not familiar with it, and I don't believe it's on the list.

So I put it on. Now it's on the list. It's going to be on the list and we'll do some research. But we appreciate all the voicemails. Gibbs, we had one thing in the mailbag. Okay. It was very interesting, though. It was a card, it was a letter that helped clear up some of our recent questions slash mysteries.

It was from Olivier Philippe out of Luxembourg. And it turns out that it was Olivier that sent us the print that we've talked about that we got in the mailbag a while back, as well as the Salvador Dali mouse pad. Yeah. That I know you're rocking. Absolutely. And loving. And turns out they're connected. Like we had no idea who sent either one, but there's a connection between the two items.

The print that I have now hanging up in the studio is actually of Salvador Dali. It's a picture of him looking at one of his famous works. It's, I don't know what the name of it is, but it's the women making up the skull. Right. The naked women. The naked women making up the skull. It also turns out that this painting was the inspiration. or it's part of the silence of the lambs logo.

If you look at the moth real closely, you'll see it. I don't know if it's exact, but it's something like it. It looks just like it. Well, that's cool. Yeah, very cool. So I'm glad we got to clear up those mysteries and we really appreciate those gifts. Now we know. So thank you.

Yep. All right, buddy. That's it for another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike and Gibby. Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.