True Crime All The Time - Jack Irwin

Episode Date: August 24, 2026

Jack Irwin was a 71-year-old Korean War veteran who lived a quiet, isolated life in a cabin on Mount Baldy, California. In 1999, he befriended Marcia Johnson and Judy Gellert, a couple interested in buying his cabin. The women quickly became close to Jack, eventually moved in with him, and gained access to his finances through a trust that would transfer his assets to them after his death. On September 13, 1999, Jack disappeared after Marcia claimed she dropped him at a train station with $5,000 and a change of clothes for a spontaneous trip to Seattle. Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss Jack Irwin. His neighbors and longtime friend Sandy Bailey immediately doubted the story, especially after Marcia and Judy stopped cooperating with investigators and began using Jack's money. The investigation eventually revealed that Marcia had made repeated withdrawals from Jack's accounts, bought vehicles, sold his property, and helped collect insurance money after his Mount Baldy cabin was destroyed in an arson fire. You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 526 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson, Gibby. How are you? Hey, I'm doing good. How about you? Doing great. Yeah. I'm having a little throat issue that I got to work through, but hopefully we can make it through this episode. Yeah, I hope so.

Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shoutouts. We had Seth Kelly. Hey, Seth. Stacey Martinez. What's going on, Martinez? Shirley Burnier jumped out to our highest level. Thanks, Shirley. or Bernie A.

I'm still not sure which one it is. Kate. Just Kate. Sharon McPherson. Hey, Sharon. V. What's going on, V? Jamie Silk.

Thanks, Jamie. And last but not least, Linda Klein. Oh, I love that, Linda. Yeah, I appreciate the new support. And then if we go back into the vault. This week, we selected Kaylee Kelly. Kaylee, look at that. Thank you for that.

Love it. So we have an episode out right now on True Crime All the Time Unsolved. where we're talking about a Michigan lawyer named Peter Kinsler. In 1976, he was shot in the head outside of his home. 50 years later, his murder remains unsolved, but authorities recently announced Gibbs that they have some very promising new leads. I'm loving this. Yeah, I think this is one that may end up being solved sooner than later.

And then next Thursday's T-Cat is on Carlitia Freeland. Gather. When she was 22 years old, she was abducted one night in Philadelphia. But Carlitia survived. She's one tough cookie. Yeah. I mean, through bravery, intelligence, compassion. She also had some helpful witnesses who assisted with the investigation leading to her rescue three days later. So it's a little bit of a different type of episode for us. But, you know, the person who abducted her was a very bad individual. Oh, absolutely. Involved in other crimes as well. But I would love to meet her and shake her hand. Oh, yeah. I can't say enough amazing things about her. All right, buddy, are you ready to get

into this episode of true crime all the time? I am. We're talking about Jack Irwin. Jack Irwin was a lonely retiree who lived in a cabin on Mount Baldi in California. In early 1999, he befriended Marsha Johnson and Judy Geller, a couple who were interested in buying his home. A month after signing a trust that gave the women full access to his assets in the event of his death, Jack disappeared. Uh-oh. That's not good. No.

I think we know who the first suspects are going to be, right? Jack Irwin was a Korean war veteran. At the time of his death in 1999, he was 71 years old. and living out his retirement in this cabin in Mount Baldi, which has been my nickname for a number of years now. I was going to say, do they know that many people call you Mount Baldi? They do now. Jack purchased his cabin in 1981, according to the LA Times. No one was quite sure where he lived before that, but he was born in the Midwest.

There was talk that Jack had either a cousin or a sister with whom he had a falling out years earlier over a home he owned in West Covina, California. So obviously the information on Jack's early life is a little spars. Right. But Jack never married and he mostly kept to himself. Kind of like a loner. Yeah, maybe. In a detailed 2005 article on this case, L.A. Weekly reported that Jack's, suffered from dystonia, a progressive neurological disorder that affected his fingers, foot, and his

vocal cords. Never heard of that before. I have never heard of that either. But it was said that it was hard for Jack to make friends because of his disability, which made speaking difficult for him. It was hard for strangers to understand or hear him when he talked. It was also difficult for Jack to walk. When Jack did talk about his disability, which was rare. He said different things to different people. For example, he told neighbors Bob and Gene Walker, he was injured by a hand grenade in Korea. L.A. Weekly reported that Jack was wounded while working on a helicopter medevac team in Korea. He was smoking a cigarette and saw what he thought was a football flying over a tent. He woke up in the hospital in Japan and discovered he'd been injured

by a hand grenade. And then Jack was discharged from the army after this. But Jack told his neighbors Tom and Sandy Bailey that his disability started after he returned from Korea. So it's kind of strange, right? It is. If you really were injured by a hand grenade, that seems like the story you would want to tell because, you know, it's kind of heroic.

You were injured in the line of service. Right. not sure why he would want to change that up. But it's also been reported that Jack struggle with depression. And once told Tom Bailey there were times he wanted to die. I get it. You know, a lot of people struggle with depression. You know, this dystonia that he had, it sounds like it was pretty debilitating.

Yeah. I'm sure it was not easy. I'm sure added to his depression. Yeah. Sources reported that before the war, Jack was active. He enjoyed racing cars, motorcycles, and speedboats. And then after coming home from the Army, he withdrew and didn't leave home unless it was necessary. So sounds like the war messed him up.

Well, it changes a lot of people. Yeah. Has changed a lot of people throughout the years. Jack went to the grocery store, made trips to the, the VA hospital and went to the Mount Baldy Post Office to pay bills. Neighbor Bob Walker told the L.A. Times, he didn't trust the soul. He was really protective of himself. He didn't have much to say about his life or his family or anything, but he was a very sweet guy. Jack's cabin was simple, but he kept it in immaculate condition, according to neighbors.

And he slept on an old army cut. He had no sense. He had no sense. stereo, no TV, but he read voraciously. And he bought his clothing from thrift stores. So he's a reader like me. Yeah. I know you're a voracious reader. Yeah. He also is giving off a little bit of some Jack Reacher vibes. He is, isn't he? Because you know, Reacher likes to buy his clothes from thrift stores. Jack was said to be extremely frugal and never even came close to spending the $722 disability check he received every month.

Liking this guy. He sounds very similar to you. You are frugal. I'll use that word rather than some of the other words I've used to describe you in the past. But you know, let's let's talk about this. $722 a month. Even in the 90s,

that doesn't seem like a ton of to live on. No. I mean, you're not going to get all the extra stuff you want when you go out to the grocery. But it sounds like he didn't want the extra stuff. No, he didn't. It was like he was very careful on what he spent.

Yeah, I think he was. But despite his Spartan lifestyle, Jack had a significant amount of money in savings. Or maybe because of it in some ways, at the time of his disappearance, he was worth around 200, $150,000 due to a real estate investment per the LA Weekly, Jack kept about $10,000 in cash

around his house and often carried a wallet full of cash. And I do think in some ways, you know, that's been a generational thing. Obviously, it's been an era thing as well, right? In times past, when you didn't have debit cards and you didn't have this, this and this, people carried a lot more cash. But even when those came out, you know, when I was pretty much exclusively using a debit card, my grandfather still paid everything with cash. Oh, yeah. He didn't trust anything but cash, I guess. Oh, that's how my dad was.

Tom and Sandy Bailey were the closest thing Jack had to family. Sandy worked at the Mount Baldy Post Office, so she saw him regularly when he came in to get money orders to pay bills. Also sounds like, you know, he probably didn't have a traditional bank account. Yeah, maybe not. I don't know exactly what he had, but he's, you know, most people who are using strictly money orders to pay their bills, that means they don't have a checking account. Sandy told the LA Times that she adopted Jack over the years. She invited him over for meals and took him books. That's awesome.

Get some free meals, some free books. Just people being nice. I like that, man. I do too. I love it. Jack's heating in his cabin broke down every year and she always offered him a place to stay. You know, just good people, I think. Good neighbor right there.

According to LA Weekly, Jack's cabin. and got so cold on winter nights that the water froze in the toilet bowl. Now, that's a problem. It seems very cold. Although Jack could afford to buy propane, he believed the propane man cheated him and refused to have his tank filled out of principle. Now, I understand principle.

Yeah. I also understand freezing to death. And, you know, when I want to use the restroom, I'd like to be able to flush my toilet. Yeah, I think everybody would. And not have to go on a solid block of ice.

First of all, you might accidentally freeze something that might be very vital to you. Yeah. If you sit down on the O de Tualette. Yeah. I just think there's times to be frugal and there's times not to be. Yeah. Because even as frugal as you are, you wouldn't go to this length. Jack accepted Sandy's offer one winner and spent two months in their home.

And when her son was born in 1987, Sandy named Jack the Godfunk. So they were pretty close. I don't think there's any doubt about that. Jack brought her son gifts every year on his birthday, but he still kept mostly to himself and only accepted her dinner invites on rare occasions. In January 1999, Jack decided he'd had enough of the harsh winters. and decided to sell his cabin. He got in his car and drove down the mountain to Upland,

where he bought a four-bedroom house on a cul-de-sac. He paid $160,000 cap. Oh, see? All that frugalness paid off. It did, but it sounded like he was done living like the Unabomber, and he wanted to live like most people in society. Yeah. That month, Jack Mecky.

at Marcia Johnson and Judy Gallard, a couple who were interested in buying his cabin. The women agreed on a sale price of $48,000 to be paid directly to Jack over 10 years in monthly installments. A little land contract deal. It sounds like it. Jack offered to let them have his washer, dryer, and fridge. At first, Marsha didn't want it.

But when she looked inside the fridge and saw that it contained nothing but peanut butter and Rice Krispies. She felt bad for Jack. It was later that Marsha admitted I began to wonder how I could use him in my life. And that's such a strange thought. Yeah. I think for most people, right? Most of us don't look at someone and just naturally ask the question, how can I use this person? Right. How can I use them to get what I want? But there are some people who do that. Oh, absolutely. Very bad individuals out there. Jack welcomed Marcia and Judy's company. They cooked for him. They cleaned for him.

And there seemed to be a strong friendship forming between the three. And I do think this is a guy who, you know, was lonely, right? So to have these two women in his life, he probably really enjoyed that. The company. Yeah, the intention. Marsha worked as a computer programmer. and Judy worked as a substance abuse counselor in prisons. She had recently been transferred from San Diego to the California Institution for Women in China.

Now, it has been reported that Marcia had a long history of mental illness. According to court records, Marcia suffered a nervous breakdown. At the age of 10, she was sexually abused by her next door neighbor. at the age of 13, she said her family was mentally sick. And her mother never talked to her. She never said she loved me. She also showed me naked to my father. Okay.

Very strange? Well, I don't know if strange encapsulates it. Yeah. Correctly. This family is jacked up. For sure. Now, she went through some terrible things here. sexual abuse at a very young age.

She had a nervous breakdown at a very young age. You got to wonder, though, how much of that came from this family environment. Probably a lot. Sounds like she wasn't maybe just abused by the next door neighbor. Yeah. That's what I'm thinking. Marsha claimed that her father beat her. Her grandfather tried to rape her and a violent ex-boyfriend.

Almost killed her. I mean, why would you even want to be around men after all that? Yeah, I don't know how you could trust any men, right? Going through those types of things at a fairly early age. I mean, and those are the men that, you know, you should always have the most trust in, right? Your dad, your granddad. Should be looking out for you the most. Yeah, that's for sure.

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She began lying, stealing, and turned to drugs and alcohol. She admitted, I became very hateful as a child. and then I just never grew out of it. In her late teens, Marcia began dating women. In her mid-20s, Marcia began experimenting with suicide per the LA Weekly. That's how they wrote it. They said she began cutting her wrists and trying to shoot herself in the head. However, Marcia said the bullet went somewhere else.

In 1985, shortly before her 25th, birthday and after two more incidents where she tried to end her life, Marcia ended up at San Diego mental health services. Well, hopefully she got some help there. Yeah, according to a nurse's report, Marsha and a friend got drunk and decided they would drive off a cliff. But as they were contemplating this, they were arrested. It's kind of like that movie with, uh, I know you were going to talk about that.

What's it called? Thelman and Louise. Thelma and Louise. Yeah. I don't know that I've ever seen that. I think Brad Pitt was in that. It was one of his first. Yeah, he was jumping up and down on the bed or something like that.

Kind of big roles or not even a big role, one of his first roles. Yeah. But there's no doubt, right, that she was going through a lot from a mental health standpoint. I think it's pretty easy to see what a lot of this, you know, where it came from, she had a very jacked up childhood. I don't think there's any two ways about it. Marcia tried to end her life in jail and was taken to a psychiatric facility. Now, Judy Gellard had a very different background from Marcia.

She grew up on a farm in Indiana, earned a degree in physical education, and got married. She got divorced after seven years and became dependent on drugs and alcohol. when she decided to get sober, she volunteered to work at Steppingstone, a drug treatment center in San Diego, and then she was later hired as a counselor. And you know who makes great counselors? People have gone through it. Because they actually know what those individuals are counseling feel. And what they're going through.

Yeah. Because they've been through it themselves. They can relate. And it was here that she met Marcia in the late 1980s. Judy and Marcia were together for 10 years, but their relationship wasn't always happy. Judy once wrote in a journal that she and Marcia tended to fight, disagree, and picket each other over small things. Marcia sometimes worked as a waitress and graduated from a computer programming institute in 1998, but her mental health made it difficult for her to keep a steady job.

In late 1998, both Judy and Marcia declared banking. To save money, they lived in a motorhome and moved around different RV parks. In December of that year, they were living at a small campground, southwest of Mount Baldi Village in an area known as Cal Saddle, Campground owner Ron Curtis, let them stay for free in exchange for watching over the grounds and collecting fees from campers. But it was a lonely place with extremely cold winters. in January of 1999, Judy and Marcia decided they needed a permanent home.

They stopped by the Mount Baldy Community Bulletin Board, and that's where they saw the real estate listing for Jack's cabin. Jack's new neighbors in Upland were Susan Hagemeyer and Doug Hopkins. They thought Jack was funny, friendly, and extremely neat. Susan became wary when Judy and Marsha moved in with Jack in the summer of 1999, neighbors noticed that the women had a close bond with Jack. According to Jack's old neighbor, Tom Bailey, per the L.A. Times, they befriended him. They must have figured out how to appeal to whatever side of him would come out.

Psychologically, he was happy. He was up about being around the girls. I'm sure he was enjoying it. Before Judy and Marsha moved in, Jack owned one cup, one bowl, one fork and one spin. His living room furniture consisted of an easy chair and a tray tape. I love it. Man, that's a bachelor life if I've ever heard of one.

Absolutely. It also sounds to me very reminiscent of Ben Affleck's character in the accountant. Well, that's true too. Remember that? He used the same plate, the same spoon and fork, and then he would just watch it. Pretty simple that way. But after Judy and Marsha moved in, Jack began to, spending in rapid succession.

He bought appliances, a television, living room furniture, and paintings. Marcia and Judy took Jack to a pride parade in San Diego, which was his first trip in years. So I think what friends and neighbors are seeing is a pretty substantial change in Jack. Oh, yeah. I mean, this guy who, I think people called Frugal, was a very substantial change. was now spending money like crazy. Yeah.

When he had never done so in his life. He's also getting out about, you know? Yeah. Susan and Doug noticed that they could rarely talk to Jack without the girls. As Jack called them hovering in the background, Marcia and Judy called Jack Dad. Sounds like they were all getting close. But Jack was still in contact with his old friend, Sandy Bailey.

The last time they spoke, Jack complained that Marsha and Judy had taken over his home. He said, when I go out, the girls change things around. I'm not in control of my own house. That would be a little frustrating, right? If you leave for the day, you come back and now your favorite chairs moved and they got their favorite love seat here and maybe they change some of the pictures around. And you're like, hey.

Maybe even some of the pictures. And those two. But let's face it, we know that they talked him into buying all this stuff. Yes. Right. There's no doubt about it. A guy this frugal just doesn't change without some prompting. But now we're getting a sense that maybe everything wasn't going as well as some people thought,

this relationship. Neighbors also once heard Marsha and Jack yelling at each other at the top of their lungs. On August 17th, 1999, Jack, Marcia, and Judy signed the Jack Irwin Trust. The document gave Marcia and Judy the title to Jack's property, in the event he died. That month, Jack spotted his neighbor Susan outside and called her over to ask her opinion on something. He said he put all his assets into a trust and put the girl's names on it. She asked him if he was crazy. Jack replied, well, we're family now.

If I die, they get everything I have. And if they die, I get everything they have. The problem with that situation is they got Jack squat. Exactly. And he's got quite a bit. Now, I'm sure he wasn't thinking that this is going to give them a motive to want to see him dead. Yeah, because if he's out of the picture, it's all theirs now. but that's because they had built up this we're all family type theme yeah right they had him

feeling good we're all family you know my family's not going to hurt me definitely a good way to manipulate somebody yeah i think that's the biggest thing you have to look at these people as manipulator jack disappeared just a month later he was last seen on september 13th 1999 that month Susan Hagemeyer realized she hadn't seen Jack in a while. She couldn't ask Judy and Marsha where he was because they'd gone back to Mount Baltie. The next time Marsha came down to Upland to check the mail at Jack's house, Susan asked her where Jack was. Marcia said he had gone to Seattle to see the space needle. It was apparently a spontaneous decision he made after seeing a travel program on TV.

The next morning, Jack took $5,000 from the bank and packed a change of clothes in a paper bag. He asked Marcia to drop him off at the Metro Link Station so he could go to CF. But Susan found this story hard to believe. And I can understand why. Yeah. First of all, Jack was not what you would call a spontaneous guy, I don't think. No. Also, he was pretty frugal.

Now, would he pack his clothes in a paper bag? Maybe. Yeah, I think he would. But would he spend $5,000 to go to Seattle? Not the guy that Susan knew, I don't think. But it does appear, at least in some ways, Jack had changed, right? Since Marcia and Judy came into his life, on October 3rd, Doug Hopkins told Judy and Marcia to report Jack missing or he would. So Marcia subsequently reported Jack missing to the Upland police.

She said that on September 13th, she gave Jack a ride to the Upland MetroLink station. Jack's disappearance was first investigated as a missing person's case by Upland police. He was going to Los Angeles to catch a train to Seattle, to visit the city. He left with a paper bag containing $5,000. and a change of clothes. Just carry that money in that paper bag. Yeah, I mean, you know, it's much the way that you travel. I find it very odd.

But when we go to CrimeCon, you just got your pigly-wiggly bag there with your change of clothes and maybe a lot of cash. You don't need all that fancy stuff, man. And I love the pigly-wiggly-wiggly. It's just not the quietest suitcase. Let's just put it that way. When Detective Steve Fulkes

came to the neighborhood to ask a few questions. Susan Hagemeyer confronted him with her suspicions about Jack's trip to Seattle. Folk said Jack was a grown man and could go where he wanted, but Susan insisted he didn't go anywhere. Now, I get it from the detective standpoint. This guy's 70-some years old. Yeah.

He has the right to go wherever he wants. Absolutely. No doubt about it. But I also understand it from, you know, Susan's perspective, this is not a world traveler. This guy doesn't leave his living room with his one chair and his TV tray. Yeah. Now all of a sudden he's going to be a big time traveler.

It just doesn't make sense, right? At least to the people who know him. Sandy Bailey was also worried because Jack had stopped returning her calls in September. When Marcia came to the Mount Baldy Post. office, she asked if everything was okay with Jack. Sandy didn't believe Marsha's story that Jack had gone on vacation. She called the Upland police, who referred her to Detective Fulks. Folks didn't seem concerned and dismissed foul play. He believed Marsha and Judy's story. But Sandy took matters into her own hands and put up missing posters of Jack all over Mount Baldi Village. Deli Times reported. Deli

Times reported that eventually Marcia and Judy got lawyers and stopped cooperating with detectives. Which is they're right. They can do that. It is. Now, where did they get the money for these lawyers? That might be a question I would ask. Because they didn't seem to have much. True.

Right? In the way of assets, money. In the fall of 1999, Marsha contacted a real estate agent about selling. Jack's upland home. The real estate agent cited concerns about where Jack would live when he returned and refused to sell, but offered to help rent the home out. Marsha grudgingly accepted. Man, that's a great point.

How are you going to sell this guy's house? Where is he going to live when he comes back from his quote unquote Seattle vacation? That's true. He's going to need a place to call home. But my thought is also, I mean, is it telling how bad that these two women want to get their hands on, you know, his money, a large part of it, which, you know, would come from the sale of this home. Well, they're definitely money hungry. Yeah, it seems that way for sure. Sandy Bailey continued leaving messages on the answering machine in Jack's upland home asking if he had returned.

and reminding him, she expected him to come to Thanksgiving dinner. Sandy told L.A. Weekly, I knew Jack was dead. I did it just to aggravate Marcia. A month later, Marsha returned to the post office and threatened to sue Sandy for slander for spreading rumors. Marsha added, and don't think I don't have the money to do it. I have more money than anyone on Mount Baldy. Okay. Putting that out there. But where'd you get the money from? Exactly. You were living in a motorhome at a campground.

Hey, can we talk about banks for a minute? You know, when I was young and I'm talking 19, 20, 21 years old, I felt like my bank was hitting me with fees from every angle. And, you know, let's be honest, at that age, you don't make a lot of money and everything counts. My younger self would have benefited so much from chime. Chime is changing the way people banked. They're not like those traditional old banks who charge fees and gate keep perks and rewards.

Chime offers the most rewarding fee-free banking, all with no overdraft fees, no monthly fees, and no minimum balance fees. You get 5% cashback on Chime card in a category of your choice, like gas or groceries, all while building credit through regular everyday spending with no credit check. And if you're ever in a pinch, Spot Me lets you overdraft up to $200,000. fee-free. So join the millions who are already banking fee-free with America's number one choice for banking. Head to chime.com slash teacet. That's chime.com slash T-CATT. Sign up now. It only takes a few minutes. Chime is a fintech, not a bank, banking services and chime card provided by Chime's bank partners qualifying direct deposits required. Terms and limits apply. Go to chime.com slash disclosures for details. On August 11, 2000, Jack's old cabin on Mount Baldy caught fire, firefighters rushed to the

scene and saw that all the doors and windows have been locked and the water supply shut off. The fire destroyed the inside of the cabin and caused the roof to cave in. Marcia and Judy responded to the scene and Marcia immediately tried to blame Jack's neighbors telling one neighbor they started the fire because they hate us because of the fire. Because they hate us, because we're lesbians. Jack's neighbor, Mary Lou Young, told the sheriff he should check for bones underneath the cabin because she had a feeling Jack never went on a trip.

No bones were found and the fire was declared an arson. Man, what a strange allegation. It is. You know, it must be one of his neighbors who started the fire. They hate us because we're lesbians. Not to say that some people don't discriminate right against lesbians or other members of the LGTBQ plus community. Right.

But it just seems like a weird accusation kind of right off the bat. Marcia swore she was not on Mount Baldy at all that day. And eventually she and Judy were paid $170,000 from insurance, which is quite a bit of money because they were under contract with Jack. to buy it for $48,000. Yeah. How does that work? I don't know.

I haven't figured that out yet. They rented out Jack's Upland home for about a year before contacting a second real estate agent whom they told they inherited the home from a relative. And the home sold in March 2001 for $190,000. All going to them. Yeah. Also, how do you sell someone's home? Well, I think the home was part of the trust. And they,

Oh, they had the trust document. Yeah. That maybe gave them the authority. Yep. That would be the, okay, that makes sense. Similar to that piece of paper, I try to have you sign every now and then. Yeah, that I always refuse.

But wouldn't that only kick in if Jack was declared debt legally? And to this point, he hasn't. So I don't know. It just depends on what the, maybe they just pulled the wool over somebody, eyes and were able to do it. In April 2001, Judy was transferred to San Diego County and the couple moved to Alpine and purchased another home. Jack's case stagnated and he was never seen or

heard from again. His neighbors in Mount Baldi and Upland called authorities often and said Marcia and Judy should be investigated. And I think that's an understatement. I do too. I mean, just again, I don't know how much police had looked into it at this point, but, you know, they had a story. And obviously, if Jack returns, then, okay, whatever, the story is probably true. But if he's never seen or heard from again, do you want to maybe look into that story a little bit and the people who told you that story? And then to me, once the house sells, how can that not be?

Suspicious. I agree with you. In June 2001, Upland turned the case over to San Bernardino County. The case was picked up by Mori Weiss, an elder abuse investigator. Weiss discovered that on September 13th, 1999, the day Jack disappeared. Marsha Johnson made the first of many withdrawals. From Jack's account, she took out $4,000 the first time. Two days later, Gibbs, she withdrew $7,000. Two days after that, she bought a Jeep. And then about a month later, Marcia sold Jack Subaru and bought a Corvette. Okay.

Or they're just using that money up. Yeah, but it doesn't seem like they're being shy about it at all. No, they're not. I mean, who's not going to notice a Jeep, a Corvette? And then it was said for two months, she made withdraw. every few days until Jack's account dwindled to just $14. Wow. And remember, this is a guy who's supposed to be on a trip to Seattle.

Yeah. And returning somewhat soon. Like he'd be okay with you. We're drawing all his money from his accounts. A guy that is about as frugal as it comes. Yeah. Weiss believed the women had illegally drained Jackson State. but he knew that unless he could show they were responsible for his disappearance,

they would claim the trust, gave them the right to Jack's money. Weiss also noted the sale of Jack's Holman Upland, and the suspected arson of his cabin on Mount Baldy. And I got to be honest with you, I agree with this guy, but I also don't think that this was that tough of a conclusion to come to. I mean, just look at all. the facts, look at all the signs. It's all pointing to one thing. Yeah. And it's just pointing to these two people. I'm not denigrating him for doing his job, but I don't think you had to be Sherlock Holmes to,

you know, figure this one out. Not at all. Records showed that two days after the fire, arson investigator Tom Fee interviewed Marcia and Judy. During that interview, Marsha mentioned that she was suing her psychologist with whom she'd allegedly had an affair. And that seems like a strange thing to confide to an arson investigator. Of all the things, that. Of all the gen joints? Of all the gen joints. When Detective Mori Weiss talked to Fee about the fire, Fee recommended he look into

Marsha's lawsuit. At the time, Weiss was too busy investigating the financial aspects of the case. but a year later in late August 2002, he contacted the State Board of Psychology, which had done its own investigation of Marsha's complaints. Weiss learned that nine days after Jack went missing, Marsha was in the emergency room and was diagnosed as acutely psychotic and suffering from hallucinations.

Have you ever suffered from something like that? Not that I know of. No. but do people who suffer from things like that actually know they are? I don't know. Would it be like that one time we did those mushrooms? Possibly. Yeah.

I'm not sure why you thought you had to take all your clothes off. That made the experience very strange. For the others around us, yeah. Who were all clothed. The rest of us, totally clothed. Yeah. Before she was released, Marsha blurted out to Judy, her mother, and hospital staff that she killed Jeff.

But as Judy later testified, no one really believed her because she also confessed to killing her brother and sister who were alive and well. I get that, right? Kind of hard to believe what someone is saying they had just been diagnosed as psychotic and suffering from hallucinations.

They're spouting off all kinds of things, some of which couldn't possibly be true. So how do you believe one thing out of all of the rest of it. Judy took Marcia to the New Day Institute in China. Marsha demanded the female therapist and was assigned to Dr. Deborah Martin. Martin was a registered psychological assistant.

She had earned her doctorate but had not yet passed her board exam. At first, Marcia rejected the idea of therapy and said she only came because Judy dragged her there. She said her real problem was the possibility of ending up in jail for spending between $60,000 and $70,000 of Jack's money. Well, shouldn't have spent it. No, definitely shouldn't have spent it, shouldn't have taken it, but I think we're going to find out

there's quite a few things that shouldn't have occurred. Marcia was hospitalized three more times over the next four months. After her November 1999 hospitalization, Marcia told Dr. Martin, she was, you was terminating her therapy. But she began paging Martin at work. Martin responded, and soon they were talking regularly on the phone and driving around while they talked about things. They grew increasingly close. Now, Martin later denied under oath having any sexual attraction to Marcia, she considered Marsha one of her best friends and thought Marcia felt the same way. And there's got to be some kind of rule against that type of fraternization.

I get it. Technically, she was no longer her therapist. Right. But I don't know what the exact rules are. There should be some like calming off period. Calming? Calming. Oh, okay. Yeah. I didn't know what she said there. Yeah.

In January 2000, Marcia drove Martin to Tijuana to buy her prescription medication for her health issues. on the way home, they stopped to watch the sunset and kissed. According to Marcia, Martin disputed this under oath and said all that happened was that Marcia tried to put her arm around her shoulders. By this time, Marcia and Judy were not together, and Marcia was living in the motorhome. Marsha claimed that one evening she invited Martin over for dinner, and they, quote, went into the bedroom.

She claimed she performed oral sex on her. Martin. Martin later testified they never had sex. All that happened was that she spent the night once and was shocked when she woke up to find Marcia asleep in the same bed, but outside the covers. Well, it's outside the cover, so, you know. But it's your dog. You and your movie quotes, man. Hey, what are you going to do? Movies just pop, movie quotes, they just pop into my head for some reason. Marcia said that in an effort to win Martin's affections, she deposited money into her account, paid for her test prep classes, paid off two student loans, and bought her gifts such as a cell phone and diamond earrings. In February 2000, Marcia proposed to Martin. Now, she claimed that Martin tentatively

agree, but she couldn't do anything until she passed her boards. Okay, either this was much more of a relationship than Martin wants to admit, or they have very conflicting views on how all this went down. I'm kind of thinking they have some conflicting views. Or one person's telling the truth and the other person's not. Yeah. I just know from personal experience, this is a lot to do in the form of, you know, giving money, putting money into someone's account, paying for these test prep classes, which we know

are not cheap. That's true. Paying off student loan. Yeah. And giving these gifts like cell phones, diamond earrings, most people don't do that unless there is some type of relationship that is more than just friends. I'll put it that way. Something's being reciprocated. Exactly. Something's being reciprocating. And he does it again, folks. It's all good.

They know what you're saying. It's the meds. It's the meds. You're not even on the meds anymore. No, I get what you're saying, right? There's a give and take. Absolutely. Whereas you would say reciprocary.

I don't even know how you said it. I don't either. But it just doesn't seem like, I understand it. Friends help each other out. Sure. This seems to be going way far and above that. Yes. That's not even to mention the fact that there are allegations of conalinguists and

and, you know, things like that going on. That is being passed around. Literally. Over the next couple of months, Marcia felt like Martin was pulling away. Martin said she was busy studying for her board exam and working. Marsha wasn't doing well either. She was taking pills daily and then drinking at night.

In March, Marcia and Martin were talking in her motorhome when Marcia said she had to tell her something. Marcia said she killed Jack. She claimed she shot him in the back of the head, cut up his body, wrapped the parts in plastic wrap and foil, and put them in a container. Martin asked her, like meat. And Marcia replied, like me.

And don't make that face because you're making me feel bad. You should feel bad if you killed somebody and on top of that, cut them up and then wrapped them up like they were meat. Leftovers all the others. Marcia asked Martin if she wanted to see where she threw the body parts, but Martin said no. Eventually, she concluded that Martin had no intention of marrying her, so she reconciled with Judy. Yeah, so let me think about this. Do I want to marry somebody that just told me that they killed somebody,

chopped them up, packaged them up like leftovers, or not marry that person? Tough choice. It kind of is, you know. I mean, you can't blame this woman for wanting to get the heck out of Dodge. Marsha privately turned on Deborah Martin. According to Martin, Marsha once called her in a drunken stupor and threatened to drive off a cliff. Martin apparently told her that if she was going to do that to take Judy with her. Kind of a good comeback.

It is not what you're used to hearing from a. therapist or a psychiatrist. I don't think that's the type of advice that they're taught to hand out. Marsha began secretly recording all of her phone calls with Martin, hoping to catch her, urging her to kill Judy.

In the meantime, Marsha told Martin that Judy was planning to sue her for rape. Marsha also filed a professional misconduct lawsuit against Deborah Martin and reported her to the Board of Psychology. The case was settled before trial with Martin agreeing to pay Marcia $35,000.

And the case would be sealed. Okay, that would be rough. Now, I get it. Deborah Martin did some things that she probably wasn't supposed to do right in her profession. Right. She didn't kill anybody. No. She didn't hurt anybody.

It would sting to have to pay this woman who, who has come after you because you didn't want to marry her, $35,000. It would hurt. When you know she's a killer. Yeah. I wonder if maybe Martin had some E&O insurance that kicked in to help her out on that, I would hope. I could be.

After reviewing the lawsuit, Detective Mori Wives was shocked to find Marcia's confession. The problem was there was no body. So there's a couple of strange things here. First of all, this confession was part of the lawsuit. Right. Right. Deborah Martin obviously revealed it. Weiss had hiked the mountains looking for remains.

Deputies had searched the campground owned by Ron Curtis, where Marcia and Judy once parked their motorhome. Some of Jack's neighbors also searched the area and found nothing. Detectives contacted VA hospitals between L.A. and Seattle. and Weiss went to the moor to look at photos of unclaimed bodies. Weiss obtained a warrant to test the soil around Jack's cabin, which did test positive for blood. However, it had been 22 months, and the sample was so deteriorated, it couldn't even be identified as human blood. Yeah, it makes it rough to use it for anything.

So Weiss felt that he needed something stronger. He needed a confession straight from Marsha. So in September 2002, Weiss met with Detective Bobby Dean, and they made a plan to stir the pot by confronting Marsha and Judy with legal problems such as search warrants and arrest warrants to make them so rattled they would discuss the case on a wiretap line and make incriminating statement. I love stirring the pot sometimes. You are a pot stir. Sometimes you have to do it.

You're also a pot liquor. I don't know why you had to bring that into this. The plan launched on September 27, 2002. Weiss called Marsh at her new home in Alpine and said he was dropping off paperwork. He presented her with a warrant, notifying her and Judy, they were being charged with commercial burglary,

grand theft by embezzlement, theft from elder, recklessly causing a fire to an inhabited structure, insurance fraud and grand theft auto. They had two weeks to turn themselves in. That'll actually get a conversation going. It's kind of an ingenious plan, right? If you think about it, those types of charges would scare the you know what out of anyone.

Yeah. And if you got more than one person involved, chances are they're going to want to talk about this quite a bit. And Marsha and Judy did. they called each other more than 10 times each day over the next few weeks. On October 2nd, 2002, deputies went to the prison where Judy worked, called her to the front office, and served her with a search warrant for her vehicle to test for blood. Judy called Marcia to tell her the news.

Marcia called their attorney, then called Judy back to report that their attorney said deputies had no authority to take the car. Marcia said their attorney wanted to know why they took the car. Judy responded because Deborah Martin said that you confessed to her that you murdered Jack and that you transported the body in that car. Marcia said, oh Jesus fucking Christ. Oh, there you go. I don't like to blaspheme, but that's exactly what she said. According to LA Weekly, Marcia realized the game was up.

She called her aunt and said, everything's over. Her aunt asked her what she meant, and Marcia said, I'm turning myself in for killing Jack. So the plan did work, right? The stirring of the pot and all that worked out perfectly. But Marcia didn't turn herself in right away. On October 9th, 2002, detectives Weiss and Dean arrested Judy at her home in Alpine for accessory to murder. They told Marcia, they were planning to charge her.

her with murder, but we're not going to take her in at that time. She was arrested on October 11, 2002. In a videotaped interview with detectives, Marsha confessed to everything. She admitted she shot Jack in the back of the head, then used a chainsaw to cut off his head and cursed at it as she rolled it down a hill off Mount Baldi Road. Okay. She also insisted Judy had nothing to do with it.

and pleaded for her not to be prosecuted. It was all me, just me. Now, we've talked about a lot of macabre things on this podcast in 10 years. We've heard of people dismembering bodies before, many times, actually, more times than I would care for. But I don't know that we've ever heard of somebody cutting off a man's head with a chainsaw and then cursing it as it rolled down a hill. It's bizarre. Very bizarre. On October 15, 2002, Marcia pleaded not guilty to 40 counts of burglary, grand theft, theft from an elder, arson, and insurance fraud. It was kind of interesting, though, because at that point,

she had not yet been charged with murder. Judy was charged with the same 40 counts. So she's admitted to murder, right? Marsha had, but she's pleading not guilty to all these other. charges. Right. We don't know how she's going to plead to murder once she is officially charged with it. On October 29, Marsha was charged with murder and Judy was officially charged with being an accessory to murder. Sheriff Sergeant Bobby Dean told the LA Times that although Judy was charged as an accessory, he didn't think she knew about the plan beforehand. He said, I don't believe that Gellert was in on any planning. She basically received. all the assets and put it in her name. On April 2nd, 2003, Marsha was ordered to stand trial on 39

counts, including murder, arson, insurance fraud, elder abuse, and grand theft. That day, 36 out of 41 charges against Judy were dismissed. So she was ordered to stand trial on five counts of insurance fraud, elder abuse, and grand theft. ones that they probably thought they knew they could get through. Yeah, but what's missing there? Well, murder. Yeah. In June 2004, Judy Gellert made a deal with prosecutors.

She pleaded guilty to one count of receiving stolen property in exchange for testifying against Martian. That's a great deal for her. Yeah, one count of receiving stolen property versus being an accessory to murder. Yeah, I think you're going to get. somebody to flip pretty easily on that deal. Oh, yeah. And if you don't, then you're not smart. Right. Opening statements in Marcia's murder trial began on September 13th, 2004. The jury heard that several months before he disappeared. Jack was befriended by Marcia Johnson and Judy Gallard, who were interested in buying his cabin. They ultimately persuaded Jack to name them in his

financial trust and grant them access to his bank accounts. In wiretapped calls to family and friends and in a videotaped interview with detectives, Marsha admitted she shot Jack in the back of the head. She cut off Jack's head, hands and feet with a chainsaw and disposed of the evidence on the mountain in right wood and in dumpsters. I mean, she was scattering parts of this man all over the place. After Jack went missing, Marsha and Judy defrauded his estate of an estimated $450,000. Wow.

By cashing his retirement checks, selling his car and house. And when there was nothing left, they burned down his cabin and collected the fire insurance. They were definitely doing everything they can to benefit from this the most. Well, this was greed, right? For sure. Pure and simple. Marcia claimed she shot Jack because he criticized Judy had flirted with her and exposed himself to her repeatedly. But prosecutors argued that her real motive was money.

Now, if you're a juror, which one are you thinking is more likely? Yeah. Money. Yeah. Is it impossible that he flirted with her, that he exposed himself to her? It's not impossible. but in the grand scheme of things, Marcia seems like a person,

and Judy, for that matter as well, they seem like people who are out to get his money. Absolutely. And I think she's trying to soften it a little bit by saying, well,

I shot him because he did this, this and this, right? He was a creepy guy. But in reality, to me, it was all about money. Deputy DA Tristan Zvare told the jury per the LA Times,

we have the evidence. The documentation of her withdraws from his bank accounts, her false police reports, her insurance claims. Marsha's defense attorney, Stephen Williams, argued that her descriptions of the murder were delusions, triggered by her ongoing struggle with bipolar disorder and alcohol abuse. The absence of a body and the lack of forensic evidence proved that the murder of Jack Irwin never happened. It's something that festered inside of age. disturbed woman. And it's not a bad strategy. She did have a pretty long history of mental health issues. That's true. The jury heard Marcia's confession from her October 11th, 2002 interview.

She told police that she and Jack were on a car ride in September 1999 when he allegedly exposed himself to her several times, which caused her to snap because she was sexually abused as a child. She also said that Jack criticized Judy, calling her a nasty girl. Marcia said, he got the repercussion for everything that's happened to me in my whole life. I was so mad at him for making me kill him. It was like everyone that's ever done a thing to me never paid for it. I felt justified in making him pay. I just wanted him to stop. I wanted him to shut up. I was so mad at him, Gibbs, for making me kill him. It's a strange thing.

It is a strange thing to say. She said about throwing Jack's head down the mountain. I just took it out of the bag and I watched it roll down the mountain thinking, I can't even believe this. I was screaming at him for making me do that and I just thought, no effing way, nobody is going to hurt me again. Well, we talked about how strange it was. was right to roll this head down the mountain and curse at it this does help fit i guess a little bit it does

doesn't mean it's true but it does fit a little easier it helps you make sense of why she might have been cursing but is it strange Gibbs that nobody else comes forward and says okay this is a man who you know comes on to people he exposes himself to people. It's just these two individuals. Yeah. That seems so strange to me. Marcia claimed she sat the cabin on fire because I kept seeing ghosts. I just like kept on seeing him. I just never wanted to go back there again, you know, because he was there. So I lit up a piece of paper towel and threw it in the trash can. It burned up pretty good. Or she knew there was a big insurance payout and that's why she really

did it. Yeah, it's hard to believe that she was haunted by his ghost. Yeah. And that's the reason why she burned the cabin down, not the almost $200,000 that they got in insurance money. Right. Marcia's defense argued that she'd been drinking the night she made her confession. Marsha later said in that same interview that she dropped Jack off at the Upland MetroLink station in September 1999, which matched what she said in her missing persons report. The defense called on experts who detailed Marcia's troubled mental history. In closing, Stephen Williams argued that there was no body, no gun, no chainsaw, and no physical evidence to convict Martian.

But the jury sided with the prosecution. On November 2nd, 2004, Marcia Johnson was found guilty of first-degree murder and 25 other counts. including burglary, grand theft, and insurance for them. The jury foreman told the LA Times, it was very shocking to hear that intricate detail of the dismemberment. That part of the story was actually kind of irrelevant to us because we were focused solely on the specific count of murder. But I would say that in our minds, her doing that fit her character.

It says a lot. It's always interesting, right, when the jurors speak out later on about what was impactful, what wasn't. Another juror said, we put no stock in her mental health alibi. Everything together. The finances, the wiretapped calls, the confession, all of the ingredients convinced us she did it. And I get how they came to that conclusion. I really do.

That month, Judy was sentenced to 180 days in jail with five years probation and what. probation and was ordered to pay $150,000 in restitution. You should feel really good about that. Oh, 180 days in jail. Now, I wouldn't want to do 180 days in jail, but that is a far cry from what she would have received had she been convicted of accessory to murder. Absolutely. On December 15, 2004, Marsha was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole.

That's good. The judge told Marcia, you told police Mr. Irwin purchased a train ticket to see the Emerald City of Seattle. But the jury did not believe that. What they bought was that he purchased a one-way ticket to the afterworld from you and that the ticket was punched not by a conductor, but by you. That might be one of the most fascinating things I've ever heard of judge. say. It's a pretty good line. It is. And I think it's very fitting in describing what happened in this case. But as of 2006, at the time we're doing this episode, Jack Irwin's remains have never been found. Yeah. I don't know if they ever will be. I don't think they ever will be either. But as we wrap this one up,

Gibbs, you know, I think, you know, like I said earlier, this was a case of greed, simple greed. You know, these two women, it sounded to me like they didn't have a lot, right? They're in a motorhome, staying in RV parks, kind of getting by. And they see in Jack Irwin this opportunity to fleece him out of a bunch of money. Yeah. And they jump on it and Marcia ultimately murders him. I just don't know how they ever thought they were going to get away with it. I really don't. I don't either. But one of the things that shows me is just how big greed is as a motivator. Oh.

We know it's a motive for a lot of murders. I do know that. I understand they got a lot of money, but to take a person's life for money, that just seems so wrong to me. I mean, all murders seem wrong to me, but yeah, was this guy quirky? Was he odd? Sounds like he was. But people also said, you know, he was. was sweet. He was a good guy. He just liked to keep to himself. And there's nothing wrong with that.

No. Unless you're the Unabomber and you're doing it because you're mailing bombs to people. Jack Irwin wasn't doing that. He just got caught. Yeah, he did. And it cost him his life, unfortunately. But that's it for our episode on Jack Irwin. We got a voicemail. You want to check that out? Let's hear it. Hi, this is Kim calling from Margaret Flores. Not key Largo, so don't get excited. Just plain Largo. I'm calling about the Denise Huber case.

You guys cracked me up, talking about a 23-foot freezer. I'm pretty sure it was probably a 23-cubic foot freezer, which is a lot different. It's about 6-foot-wide, so only one Mike can fit unless we stack you. Anyway, I am Team Mike. Keep your head on a swip and keep your own time. Thank you. Well, we very much appreciate the voicemail. I also appreciate the kind of macab humor there as well.

And you and I were talking about it on Patreon, but I have got loads and loads of voicemails, emails of people saying, yeah, 23 cubic foot. None of them were mean, which is rare. Normally some of them are mean, but none of them were. you would just think people of our education would have figured that out as we were moving along in that story. Well, I try to tell you, but you kept on hushing me like, you know, that was just all edited

out, as that was you're saying? Yeah. It was editing magic. No, I just, I thought, man, 23-foot freezer. That's a big-ass freezer. And if they have to put two of us in there in stackers, I'm telling you, I'm not going to be the one on the bottom. How about neither one of us are in there?

That's even a better. That's a better plan. Yeah. But that's it, buddy, for another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.