True Crime All The Time - James Marlow and Cynthia Coffman

Episode Date: September 6, 2021

James Marlow and Cynthia Coffman were a toxic couple who went on a murder spree in California in 1986. They both had rough childhoods and they met after Cynthia's boyfriend was housed at Folsom prison with James. They had no regard for their victims and murdered at least five as a way to finance their lifestyle.Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the lives and crimes committed by James Marlow and Cynthia Hoffman. Their murders were brutal and it was evident that they didn't see their victims as human beings. After they were caught, each blamed the murders on the other. Cynthia claimed that she was abused by James and had no choice but to go along with his plans. James said Cynthia was the mastermind behind everything.You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 249 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson. And with me as always is my partner in True Crime, Mike Gibson. Give me, how are you? Hey man, I'm doing good. How about you? I'm doing real well, having a good week so far. I know it's pretty early in the week. But yeah, it's a good one. You and I just got done talking about Colin Pitchfork. He did. And his release from prison over in the UK. I know a lot of people are up and arms as they should be over it so we covered that in our weekly patreon episode we also have a brand new true crime all the time unsolved out where we're discussing the 2001 murder of shannon palk yeah we're going to head down to alabama and uh you know we're discuss her disappearance and then we're

obviously go into the murder and the possible suspects and go from there. So make sure you check that out. Before we get into this episode, let's go ahead and give our shoutouts. For Patreon, we had Michelle Svalila. Hey, Sevillea. Torin Saldal Strand. What's going on? Sadalstrand.

John Navarret. Hey, Navarret. Kate Goldgirth. We got some good names here. We do. Yeah, hey, Golgirth. Maggie De La O. De Laot. Emily Murray.

Hey, Emily. Stephanie Farruly. Hey, Farruly. Laura V. in memory of Enrique. Hey, Laura. And we definitely appreciate that. And Enrique. Teresa jumped out at our highest level. Hey, Teresa. Joseph McEwen.

What's up, McEwen. Christy. Hey, Christy. Deb Sakati. Ooh, Seekate. Cedella. What's up, C. Jocelyn Kingsley.

Hey, Jocelyn. Kimberly O'Brien. Well, hello, O'Brien. And last but not. least Jeff Tull jumped out of our highest level. I think it's G-off. Okay. We'll go with that. Okay. And then if we go back into the vault, Gibbs, this week we selected Heather Chipman. Awesome. Thanks, Heather. So we appreciate the new Patreon support, the continued Patreon support. We had some great PayPal donations from Susan Pethall. Hey, Pettall. Christina Wynn.

What's up, Christina? And Christy Delacarta. Hey, Delacarta, which is just a fun name. to say it is don't forget about crime con if you're going make sure you get your tickets fast i know i'm hearing things about them going quickly go to crimecon dot com use our promo code teacat yeah to get 10% off your standard badge price so i guess gibbs last week we were talking about crime con over in europe right and we said we weren't going nobody invited us why i think some people heard it wrong or took it the wrong way and thought, well, we're not going to crime con next year in Vegas. That's absolutely false. We will be there. Yeah. We will be. We're sorry we gave off that, that impression. I've already been invited to participate in the Thunder Down Under. Have you? That's great, man. Well, it's really not called Thunder Down Under. It's known. That sounds like a review show for Rex West, actually. I think there is a review show called The Thunder from Down Under. Well, there is. But there is. this is more like the amateur one. Oh,

so it's not really the thunder down under. It's like the bump from the, you know. Yeah. Yeah. It's more like a rumble, like a low rumble from down under. But you know,

everybody's going to start somewhere. Yeah. You got to, man. All right, before we get into this episode, got to give a big shout out to Hannah Pearson for her help with the research and writing.

We're talking about James Marlowe and Cynthia Kaufman. Gibbs, this was a couple who went on. on a murder spree in California in 1986. So let's start off talking about Cynthia. Cynthia Lynn Haskins was born on January 19th, 1962 in St. Louis, Missouri. She was born into a devout Catholic family, but her father left the family when Cynthia was only three.

So she was primarily raised by her mother. When Cynthia was born, she had a double hernia, which made her unable to her. unable to be held as an infant. Hey, I had the same thing when I was born. And you also had one a few years ago, if I remember correctly. I did. And it hurt like heck. But, you know, this is sad, right? I mean, you're talking about an infant, a very young baby who has a condition that, you know,

makes it hard for a parent to even hold them. So I think what it did or what, you know, professionals have thought that it did was that it caused the bond between mother and daughter to not form as it normally would. At one point, Cynthia's mother tried to give her and her brothers away. So, all right, she can't hold Cynthia, but her mom is not going to be in the running for mother and, of the year. We're going to find that out. Yeah, really quick. She was successful in giving up, you know, one of her sons for adoption. Cynthia was frequently given to various family members because her mother had aspirations of becoming

a singer. And basically, she didn't want her children to get in the way of that. Well, maybe don't have kids then. I mean, once you decide to have kids, it's your responsibility to, and your priority, really, to take care of them. Yeah, I believe that as well. I know a lot of people, you know, maybe they have kids before they're ready. Maybe that was what happened here. But I get what you're saying, man. You know, once that happens, you've got responsibility. And I feel like you need to take that responsibility and live up to it.

Well, sure. Cynthia became a rebellious teen. And by the time she was in high school, she was experimenting with drugs. such as marijuana and methamphetamine. I mean, it's just weed, man. Everybody does a little bit of weed. Yeah, I mean, I think we've talked about weed a bunch. When I was in high school, I knew a lot of people that smoked weed. Right. I don't remember anybody dabbling with meth.

Yeah, I don't either. And I don't even really know when meth kind of came on the scene. I didn't realize it was that big back in the early 70s. And maybe it only was in big cities like St. Louis or, you know, places like that. Maybe that's why we never heard about it because we lived in Podunkville, USA. Good old Podunk. But hey, we have a lot of farmland and there's a lot of weed. I can tell you that for sure.

And a lot of cows to tip. And a lot of cow tipping going on. At some point, Cynthia ran away to live with her boyfriend, Ron Kaufman. And they got married after she got pregnant. but the marriage didn't last long. Now, Ron has claimed that he filed for divorce because of Cynthia's infidelity and because she wouldn't stop using drugs. Cynthia has claimed that Ron frequently abused her.

Well, maybe it was a little bit of both. It definitely could have been. Now, we're going to hear claims of abuse from Cynthia later on in the episode. She did try to support her son Joshua. but eventually abandoned him and essentially just left him with Ron for Ron to care for him. Now, there are a lot of people who believe that Cynthia has an antisocial personality disorder, which they have claimed might help explain why she was able to abandon her son and might explain the reason why she committed some of her crimes later on. But she also could have learned that behavior from her mom.

Did you just say learnt with a tea? I might have. I believe you did. I might have learned that from somebody in my life. You know who you didn't learn it from? School system? Me. Oh, and you?

Me. You didn't learn it from me. You might have learned it from the school system, but... Maybe. You never know. Or maybe you just like to put a tea on the end of words like cousin. Sometimes I like to... I can't really do that, can I?

Just want to put a tea on there. Yeah. So when we get to James Gregory Marlowe, he was born on May 11th, 1956 to Doris and Arnold Marlowe. He was born in Ohio, but grew up in the coal mining area of eastern Kentucky. Just like some of our family. A lot of our family. Except the opposite, right?

Grew up in Kentucky, but made their way to Ohio. Right. Doris gave birth to. to James's sister Veronica in 1959. And both James and Veronica were abused by their mother. Doris would frequently use drugs in front of her children. She also brought her clients as a sex worker back to the house. That's not good.

No, that's not good. So you have young children witnessing drug use, but also most likely witnessing sexual acts at a very young age. I mean, what does that do to kids? It can't be good. I mean, I remember growing up, even just hearing my parents, you know, doing what they did. Is that what you're talking about? Yes.

Really? Okay. Why brings back nightmares? I don't remember ever hearing that. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, I heard it a lot. And I'm like, it's just things that you just wish that you could forget. Obviously, your parents were not that careful or just did not worry.

They just didn't realize that bed squeaked as much as it did. those walls were that thin. Well, maybe they did. It just didn't care. They were going to do what they, you know, they weren't doing anything wrong. It's not like they were doing it in front of you. No, no, no. I mean, that's what we're talking about here. And that's, that's scarring. It is. And, you know, I'll be honest with you. I kind of worry a little bit about youth today because they have the availability of so much information. You know, when you're talking about the internet, you know, if you don't have filters on there, man, you can get to, you. You know, you can get to, literally anything.

You can see anything. And young children should definitely not be watching some of this stuff, but I have a feeling they are. Yeah. And I'm just wondering what types of issues some of those things are going to cause in the future. I mean, you know, sexual addiction, different types of things like that. Unfortunately, you know, we may not know for five, 10 years or however long down the road.

For sure, it will definitely come back as a reason for. certain things and the number of mental health professionals that specialize in that stuff. Yeah. Yeah, it absolutely could. James eventually went to live with his father, but that didn't stop the abuse. Arnold beat James, locked him in cabinets. So he eventually went back to his mother's house, and that's where he learned how to commit petty crimes. So my understanding Gibbs is that his mother would throw parties. James was put to bed in the rooms where guests put their coats and things. Yeah.

We've all been to a party and, you know, the host takes your coat, whatever. They're kind of usually all stored on a bed, let's say, piled up in one of the back bedrooms. And James's mother instructed him to go through everyone's belongings and essentially just steal whatever he could find. It's like a little scavenger hunt for the, for the young boy. Yeah. Again, she's not in consideration for Mother of the Year either, but also doing quite a bit of harm. You'd have to think to her young son. Yeah, well, what she really does

next takes her out of consideration for Mother of the Year. Yeah, because when he was just 13 years old, Doris shot James up with some drugs and she sexually assaulted him. In later interviews, James said he didn't even know that what was going on was wrong. Number one, because he loved his mother very much. So I think he just thought what she was doing was normal. And let's not forget, he had witnessed quite a few sexual acts. So maybe that increased the normalcy in his mind of what was going on. This is what his mother did for a living. And he'd witnessed it. I think for most of us, that's very hard to comprehend. It is, but we also were not subjected most of us to, you know, having to see these types of things at a very young age. Sources say that James began committing crimes at just 10

years old. Now, there's not a lot of information about these early crimes, but there's no doubt that it was just the beginning of his criminal career. Eventually, James and his sister moved to California to live with their grandmother. And that's when they were finally able to escape the abuse. Man, you got to love grandmothers. Oh, you do. But after James moved to California, he got a swastika tattooed on his arm. And he joined the Aryan Brotherhood.

Now, tattoos are going to come up a lot in this episode. James was known for having lots of interesting tattoos and also having them put in some interesting places. Well, I love tattoos. I don't love the Swazica tattoo. No, not at all. That seems like a very bad idea. At one point, he did get a tattoo of an ex-girlfriend on his penis.

So when I say, you know, strange, fascinating places, okay. Well, she must have been a tiny girlfriend. Or he had a lot of canvas to work with, one or the other. Maybe, but that had a hurt either. way. Well, that's what I was thinking. That's got to not feel good at all. While James was in California, he met and married his first wife. And keep in mind, he's only 16 years old. Some sources say that he was married a total of six times. Some say three. So it's kind of all over the map. But 16 years old, Gibbs, how many people are ready for that at 16 years old? And I don't think anybody really is

never ready for it, even at 16, let alone later in life. Yeah, I think my grandparents, and I maybe mentioned it before, I know they got married very young. I want to say my grandmother was only 14 years old, but it was Kentucky and it was, you know, 70 years ago. And it's what people did. Soon after he got married, his mother died in a trailer fire. And it was described as completely devastating.

to James. Again, Gives, I think he had a tremendous love for his mother, as most of us do. That part to me is not strange. What is a little strange is that the love was so strong considering what she did to him. It was just the extra activities that went on in that loving relationship that not normal. James later said that he, quote, took on the sins of his parents by continuing his life of crime. In 1975, he kidnapped his cousin and locked her in a closet for three days, where he raped and beat her. Now, luckily, she was able to escape and run to a neighbor's house for help.

James was arrested, but they put him in a drug rehab center instead of prison. He was there for seven months. And basically, what I got Gibbs was that it happened after he explained to the cops about his abuse as a child. So they said, uh, instead of sending him to prison, we better send him to rehab instead. He was released in 1976, but soon after was arrested for being under the influence. Okay, I get it. A lot of people get arrested for that. Sure. I want to go back to this kidnapping your cousin, locking her in a closet and beating and raping her. So let's go back to this.

to his childhood. Can you draw a direct correlation from that crime all the way back to the abuse he witnessed, he experienced, the sexual acts that he witnessed, you know, you say it all the time. At what point do these things that we know are not normal become normal in somebody's mind? because they're witnessing them or they're experiencing them on a day in, day out basis. Yeah. And when you're seeing people that you're supposed to be looking up to do those, it's just, again, it's just a learned behavior. And you're like, it's, it's normal.

It's acceptable in their world. So he wasn't there long, right? Seven months or so. When he got out, he continued to commit armed robberies for the next few years, mainly to get cash for drugs, right? he was using drugs. James was sent to your favorite place, California's Folsom Prison in 1980, for a whole slew of crimes, including burglary and drug charges. That's some bad water there. Exactly. It was a little late for the Johnny Cash concert,

but yeah, I get you. While he was in prison, he got a large wolf tattoo on his right side, and that earned him the nickname the Folsom Wolf. The Folsom Woof. Or woof. Yeah. However, you would like to say it. You ever wonder what your prison name would be? Curled up in a ball?

I think is what it would be. Keeps to himself. There's that. There's that. Keeps to himself, guy. Doesn't shower with others. I can go on and on. I'd have a list of nicknames.

There's Mr. Neverbends over to pick up the soap. Exactly. All right, Gibbs, let's take a minute to talk about Amazon Key. You know how when sometimes things come out, you say to yourself, how did I live without that? That's the way I feel about Amazon Key in garage delivery. I've talked about it a lot. My family orders a lot from Amazon. But now with Amazon Key, it's even more convenient and easy to use.

So after I set up in garage delivery, which was super easy because my garage door opener already had the technology in it, All I have to do is add items to my cart and select key delivery at checkout. And my packages are left in my garage. It's that simple. It really gives me the ultimate piece of mine. And you don't have to share your garage code. The other day I actually watched how it worked. The driver scanned the Amazon package.

That verifies the delivery. Verifies they have the package. They're at the right address. And it gives them one-time access to open the garage door. Once they put it in, they leave, it closes. It's super quick. You'll get a $40 Amazon credit. with your first in garage delivered.

Amazon Key in garage delivery is free for prime members. Visit Amazon.com slash Amazon Key to learn more. That's Amazon.com slash Amazon Key. Terms and conditions apply. So we get back to Cynthia. She and her boyfriend, Doug Huntley, moved to Barstow, California, where Cynthia got a job as a bartender and waitress.

She also sold meth on the side. You know, you've got to have a side hustle. Everybody needs a side hustle. I think they should be legal. I think so, is my personal opinion. The two were arrested after Cynthia pulled a gun on some men who were taunting Doug. Now,

she was released after only a few days, but Doug was placed in the same cell in Folsom as James Marla. Oh, that's bizarre. Well, it's obviously how this is all going to come together, right? because they've led totally separate lives up to this point. It was while these two guys were cellmates that Doug told James about Cynthia. And when James got released, he showed up at Cynthia's apartment. And from what I understand, Gibbs, it was love at first sight.

Cynthia immediately left Doug and she headed to Fontana, California with James in June of 1986. And this began the dangerous partnership that would end with as many as five people being murdered. I say as many as because as you and I always talk about, okay, could there be more than what comes out? Absolutely. We always know that possibility exists. Right. So James and Cynthia are together and they decided to move to Kentucky to a plot of land that one of Marlowe's relatives had left him before leaving for Kentucky. James had less than $60 in his bank account and just enough drugs to last them a few days. I remember there was some Marlowe clan up in eastern Kentucky, up by Everett in that area up there. There were some rough individuals. So you're assuming that

he was part of that clan? There's a good chance he might have been. Because there can't be more than one Marlow clan in eastern Kentucky. Well. I like, I like the way you're going, though. I like the way that, uh,

that your mind is working. So I'm thinking about 60 bucks and cash and you got just enough drugs to last a few days. All right. You're not going to make it, right? From California to Kentucky. So what they did was they pawned some stolen items.

That gave them the gas money they needed. They drove all the way to St. Louis. without stopping to sleep or for food. They continued on to Kentucky, but when they arrived, James learned that there was no plot of land and there was no money left to him. So instead of working or finding a place to live, which is what you would think most people would do. Okay, our plans didn't work out.

We got to get jobs. Let's get an apartment, do whatever. Now, they spent their time going on pot hunts. Oh yeah, good old pot hunts. About 50 in total, which basically meant they were walking through the woods looking for marijuana plants. That's a busy afternoon there. Maybe they look for pot, but they also look for ginseng. Because you know, ginseng's big down there.

If you can find that ginseng. Oh, and some of those mushrooms, too. Oh, and the mushrooms on top of it. I mean, you could go in the woods and look for a lot of few things then. Yeah. I watched a whole documentary about people making their living by picking mushrooms. Oh, there used to be a series about the ginseng down in that area too. Big money.

But James wasn't going to be without work for long. He was hired as a hitman to kill a guy named Greg Hill, who was going to testify in court against an acquaintance of James. James was given a 22 caliber pistol and paid $5,000 to silence Greg Hill. So James and Cynthia parked outside of Hill's house. for the better part of a day. And this day, Gibbs was described in the car as basically having sex and doing drugs. Well, you know, they had to do something to kill the time. Well, I've seen a lot of movies where, you know, people are on stakeouts or they're doing surveillance.

I don't see a lot of sex and drug activity in the movies. But, you know, hey, in real life, I guess that's what they had to do. Well, they are different than most. Eventually, Cynthia knocked on Hill's door. and she claimed that she needed help with her car. Once at their car, James jumped Hill and a struggle ensued, which caused the gun to go off, shooting Hill in the head and killing him.

Cynthia and James drove off, leaving Hill dead there on the ground. Now, the two wouldn't be connected to the murder of Greg Hill until after they were arrested for their later crimes. We're used to that, right? That happens in a lot of the cases that we do. But after receiving the five grand, he was promised, James bought a Harley, which he named Big Red. Big Red. That's what I said. Big Red. Big Red. On July 11th,

1986, James and Cynthia had a biker wedding. Man, that was my birthday, man. That was 20 years old at that time. Hey, how about that? Yeah, happy belated birthday to me. I think you're, you're shaving some years off your age, but we'll let you go with it. All right. So this biker wedding, right? according to Cynthia, wasn't really a legitimate wedding. It was really just a group of friends who got together and then someone pronounced them man and wife. Well, I think it's probably very much a legitimate wedding, depending on the biker group or gang you belong to.

They might take that till death. Do we all part? Do we all putting us all together? Yes. But here's the thing, Gibbs. You know, people who attended the wedding said that Cynthia's face. showed obvious signs of abuse at the hands of James Marlowe. And there's no doubt that Cynthia was stuck in an abusive relationship with James. After her trial, she was asked if she ever thought

about leaving him. And she said that she was so afraid of him because he knew where her son and family lived. Yeah, I get that. You know, it's, it's not easy to ever leave an abusive relationship. So, especially if you know that they are capable and have the means to go after other people that you love. Yeah, members of your family. Yeah. Now, the one thing I will say about this case, there's going to be a lot of finger pointing on both sides. But I think at least when it comes to this abuse, there is some corroboration, right? That's why I wanted to point out that, you know, at this by her wedding, people made a note of it that she appeared to have.

injuries, bruises that were consistent with abuse. After the biker wedding, they headed to Arizona and the abuse continued. James beat Cynthia after she helped some men get a stuck ball out of a pool table. So he probably walked in at the wrong time to the pool hall, seeing his wife surrounded by men around the pool table trying to get that eight ball out of the corner. pocket. And you're assuming that he thought he was seeing something different than what was really going on. Yeah, I think that's very possible. But when they returned to the hotel where they were staying, James threatened Cynthia with scissors saying, your hair or your eye. Okay, nobody wants to

hear that. Oh. But to me, that's a pretty easy choice. James cut her hair very short, forced her to strip naked, and stand outside of the motel room. Which is kind of bizarre. If you didn't want her to help somebody by the pool table, why would you want her to be stripped naked out for everybody to see? Yeah, it doesn't seem logical. No. Right?

If he was jealous because maybe in his mind, he thought she was flirting with these guys or whatever, well, now you're going to make her stand outside the motel room naked where any guy can see her. That just doesn't make any sense at all. It really doesn't. It kind of sounds like a little scene from Billy Jack, you know, when that girl was stripped and they cut her hair.

But you probably don't remember Billy Jack. I remember the movie. I don't remember the specifics, but maybe that's where you got it from. Maybe, yeah. I always remember Billy Jack. He says, I'm going to put my left foot on the right side of your face. The next thing you know, boom. He does exactly that.

He does it, yeah. But after James let Cynthia back into the room, room, he sexually assaulted her. The couple moved back to Fontana, California near San Bernardino County in October of 1986. James and Cynthia were able to say with James half sister and cousins who lived nearby, this new location didn't offer much for the couple to make money. And to be honest, Gibbs, we haven't really talked about them having real jobs. We've talked about them stealing, pawning stolen items, things like that. But it was in Fontana that James tattooed property of fulsome wolf on Cynthia's

rear end and the word wolf on her ring finger as a wedding band and he did it all by himself. Well, it's kind of like he was working his territory. Yeah. I mean, I think for one thing, James had always been turned on by tattoos. That's a statement that he would later make. And I think he liked the idea of branding Cynthia and kind of making her his property. I assume that's the way he saw it. Cynthia later described his wrath as turning into a wolf.

At one point, they bought some meth. And Cynthia asked for an equal portion of the math. So James beat her. He put a cigarette out on her face. I guess he didn't want to share. That's nasty stuff. It is. He forced her to take the anti-epilepsy drug DeLam,

which he told Cynthia were cyanide pills after she had swallowed them. And according to her, he laughed when he told her that she was going to die from the pills. That's really sick stuff. man, it's twisted. It's demented. Yeah, I mean, this is physical abuse and emotional abuse. Mental. Yeah. All of it. And this is what she's describing as the wolf coming out. There were two murders in October of 1986 that Cynthia and James would eventually be linked to. The first was the murder of 32-year-old Sandra Neri, who was strangled and dumped. Her body was found on October 24th near Corona.

California. 13 days later, 35-year-old Paula Simmons was killed in Bullhead City, Arizona. Both victims Gibbs were abducted while taking money from an ATM. So I just mentioned it, right? We're not talking about them having real jobs. So how are they getting their money? Well, we might be getting a little glimpse. Sure, yeah. Into how they were doing it. Let's get that person while there at the ATM machine and take what they have. Cynthia and James' next victim was 20-year-old Corinna Novitz. Corinna was a college student working at a local branch of State Farm. On the night of November 7th, she planned to get her nails done, meet some friends,

and then attend a fraternity party. As soon as she was done working, she left to go buy alcohol and do some last-minute shopping. Corina exited the Redlands Mall and headed to her white Honda CRF. But just as she got to her car, Cynthia Kaufman approached her and asked for a ride. According to Cynthia, Corinna allowed them to hop into the car with her since they were headed in the same direction. But this story has never flown with Corinna's family. They've said she would have never allowed strangers in her car, especially. with the rough appearance of Cynthia and James.

They believe Corinna was forced into the car by the couple and taken against her will. Corinna drove the car to Redlands University where James pulled out a gun. He shoved it into her ribs and he demanded that she pulled over to the side. Cynthia slid off of James Lap. They were both sitting in the passenger seat and she climbed into the driver's seat, forcing Corinna on two. James's lap. So now Cynthia's driving and she took the San Bernardino freeway. They drove on the freeway for about 20 minutes before exiting and arriving at an apartment complex.

Sometime between 7.30 and 8 p.m. Cynthia and James dragged Corinna to the residence of a guy named Richard Drinkhouse. This guy was a friend of James. Drinkhouse allowed them inside. And from what I understand Gibbs, he basically sat on the couch and watched TV for the entire time that they were inside his place. Now, the following events come from Cynthia. So, you know, you always have to ask the question, how accurate are they? Right. It's her side of the store. It's her side. But what she said happened was that James handcuffed Corinna to a bed and got the pin number for her bank account. and then taped her mouth shut. He started the shower and took his clothes off, which is when Cynthia said she left the room because she knew. James was about to rape this girl. Now, according to James, Cynthia encouraged him to have sex with Corinna,

as she had always wanted to see him with another girl. So again, throughout this story, you're going to have conflicting stories. But they're definitely, was an assault. And after James assaulted Corinna, Cynthia sifted through her purse. She didn't find much, just a few dollars in cash. They left Richard's place and went to buy drugs. Eventually, they ended up at a vineyard in Fontana, California. And this is where they sodomized and strangled Corinna and then dumped her body in a shallow grave there at the vineyard. And Cynthia has said that after the murder, James said to her, we've got to find another one. We didn't get any money from that girl. We'll just have to look for another one.

Just shows you how bad of an individualist guy was, if you believe Cynthia. Yeah. And again, let's say that's exactly what he said. It just shows you how little he valued this girl's life. Yes. She was nothing to him but an opportunity to get. some money. Yeah.

And a chance for him to commit a sexual assault. She wasn't a person. No. To him. By late Monday morning, November 10th, no one had heard from Corinna. Her boss was concerned, right? She hadn't called saying she would be late to work. Once police were contacted, they began their search.

They put up some missing posters around Redlands. Some hope emerged when Corinna's ID was found. in a Taco Bell bag, along with a driver's license for Cynthia Lynn Kaufman and the medical emergency card of James Gregory Marla. So detectives requested criminal history on Cynthia and James. Obviously, what they got back Gibbs was a laundry list of crimes that had been committed by both of these people. So I get Corinna's ID.

let's say being in a Taco Bell bag thrown away. Right. But how in the world are you going to leave your own ID, your driver's license, and a medical ID card? This is being careless. I don't even know how it would get in there. It just makes no sense at all. I think careless is one word.

You could also maybe say that they're hopped up. They're not thinking correctly. But also how lucky was that that they were able to find that Taco Bell bag? that had that information inside of it. I would say extremely fortuitous because without that, we don't know what happens. But Corinna's body wasn't found until November 15th, when Cynthia led authorities to her body following her arrest.

Their next victim, Linnell Murray, went missing on November 12, 1986, after failing to return home from work. Linnell was a 19-year-old college psychology student who worked as a clerk at prime cleaners in the Huntington Beach Mall. Linnell was planning on working at the cleaners from 2.30 to 6.30 p.m. and then going on a date with her fiance Robert. A witness named Linda Schaefer placed Cynthia Kaufman at the mall at 6 p.m. that evening.

Schaefer entered prime cleaners and she dropped off some clothes with Linnell, who was the only one working at the store. as Schaefer exited the cleaners, she later testified that she saw a couple embracing in a nearby alley. That couple was later identified as James Marlowe and Cynthia Kaufman. Another witness named Linda Whitlake encountered Cynthia just about a half hour later at 6.30 p.m. As she walked to her car, Cynthia approached her and claimed that her car wouldn't start. At first, Whitlake offered to give her a ride. But then for some reason, Gibbs, she decided against it.

Man, how lucky was she when she thinks back on what could have happened? Well, a lot of things could have happened, would have happened. And you have to believe that none of them would have been good with the worst outcome and maybe even the most likely outcome being that Linda Whitlake ended up dead. Yeah, because you know James was going to get into that car. And then something very bad was going to happen. So I think an understatement, right, to say that Linda Whitlake was extremely lucky. I guess you could call it luck, but maybe it's not luck. She just made the right decision.

I think she in the end, Gibbs trusted her gut and it really paid off. And I think to take it a step further and speculate on what might have happened to Linda, that very same night, Cynthia and James would kill. Again, I don't think it's a stretch to say that her life could have ended had she decided to give Cynthia a ride. Now, when Linnell didn't show up for her date with Robert, he checked to see if she was still at work. He arrived at the cleaners at around 7 p.m. And he noticed that the dry cleaners looked as though it had been rocked. So he immediately called the police. Not long after this, Cynthia checked into room 307 of the Huntington Beach Inn. It was around 7.13 p.m. under the name Linnell Murray. And she paid with Linnell's bank card.

And this is where Cynthia and James murdered Linnell by strangling her with strips of a hotel town. When Linnell was discovered by a cleaning lady the next day, she was bound to. She was bound to and gagged, and her head was submerged in the bathtub. She had suffered blunt force trauma to the head, injuries to her torso, and both of her eyes were blackened. And on top of all that, she was also sexually assaulted, and she was urinated on. So again, this was very, very nasty. Just like the other murders, they didn't care about the person.

They only wanted one thing, right? Yeah. And again, I'll say it, I don't think they. saw these women as people. You know, I think they saw them as objects, saw them as a means to an end. Yeah. Whether it was part sexual gratification, part, you know, let's get some money out of them. They just weren't human.

They didn't see them as human. Cynthia and James left Linnell's body in the motel room. And around midnight, they went to a Denny's. and they ate shrimp and steak using Linnell's credit card. And I don't know how you go out to eat after doing what you've done to this woman. So I have two questions or two thoughts. One piggybacking off of yours, which is,

you know, what happened in that motel room was brutal. And so your next thought is, hey, let's go to Denny's. Also Gibbs, who in the hell order shrimp and steak at Denny's? That's a crime right there.

Denny's is a breakfast restaurant. You get the moons over Miami. I didn't even know they had steak and shrimp, but no doubt, right? This is a couple who has absolutely no remorse for the crimes that they committed. They just don't. You don't do these things.

You don't revel in it. You don't celebrate by getting some steak and shrimp using that person's credit card after you've violated them. You've beaten them, murdered on them, urinated on them, and ultimately left their head underwater. Terrible people. Thankfully, this was the last murder committed by Cynthia Kaufman

and James Marlowe. The two next checked into the Bavarian Lodge and Big Bear. On the morning of November 13th, again, they used Linnell's card. They attempted to use, her card later at a sporting good store. But by this point Linnell's card was being traced,

which alerted authorities to where the suspects were. And that's all it took. Authorities arrested Cynthia and James on November 14th as the pair was walking along a road in Big Bear. Staff of the Big Bear Lodge

recognized Cynthia and James after a statewide alert was issued and they reached out to police and said that the couple had stayed there the previous night. They both went pretty quietly. Neither of them resisted arrest. Both were wearing clothing stolen from prime cleaners. So that right there is not going to look good. No. But there's going to be so much more. Well, they look in Cynthia's purse and they find Linnell's ID, her wallet, an earring matching one that was found on Linnell's body as well as another one

matching one found on Karina's body? I mean, this is not good. No, no. And they found a loaded 22 caliber revolver with extra ammunition, receipts with Linnell's forged signature, and a

paper bag from prime cleaners. After the arrest, Corinna's car was found parked off a highway in San Bernardino County and eventually Cynthia led investigators to where Corinna was buried.

I mean, I think Gibbs, they must have known. They must have been at least smart enough to know that there's so much here tying us to these murders. What are we going to do? Detectives immediately began interrogating James and Cynthia the evening of their arrest. I did see some indication that they both asked for an attorney but weren't given one.

So the questioning continued. And both essentially confessed to being there while the murders took place, although each one accused the other of being in charge, right? Of, of actually being the mastermind or committing the murders. Sure, let's shift the blame on somebody else. Yeah, and I think, you know, I've kind of already said it, but this is going to be a huge thing at trial. It's a problem for prosecutors, number one, because they're both pointing the finger

at each other. number two, this whole, hey, we asked for an attorney and you wouldn't give us one and we ended up confessing, that's going to come back. Sure. Yeah. Yep. To bite prosecutors. Because ultimately their confessions were ruled inadmissible in court, which is huge.

Now, they still have a ton of evidence. James and Cynthia were formally charged on November 17th, 1986. But it took three years for the two. of them to stand trial. Their trial began on July 18th, 1989 in San Bernardino County. This trial was pretty much an international sensation. And the courtroom was packed with media. And one thing that I saw a lot in the reporting was that many men in the courtroom were enamored with Cynthia. They thought she was attractive. I'm not sure why that was such a huge thing in the reporting, but it really was.

That's where the focus was. They talked about it a lot. Now, it didn't match up with the pictures that had been printed in the news, right, leading up to the trial because those were from her mugshot three years earlier. And in that photo, her hair was super short. It hadn't grown out much at all after James had cut it. They were living pretty hard, I think, right? but at the trial her hair had grown out and I think she looked much different than she did

in her mugshot photo well I don't think she looked hard well let's not forget she had gotten away from James sure yeah for the last three years so unless she was getting in fights in in jail she wasn't being beaten on on a regular basis right probably wasn't doing the amount of drugs that she had been doing. That's true too. But I think what it did, it made people question whether or not she was guilty, just based on the way she looked. It was almost as if people were saying, you know, how could this delicate feminine woman be guilty of these heinous crimes with which she was charged? Yeah. I'm not saying that's right. I'm saying, I think that's what happened. Well, we know, right? Looks can be deceiving, as can age, for that matter. Now, I'm talking to you, Dorothea

Plente. Well, you have to bring her up when she's right there. She's staring right at you. She is, really freaky. So more than 175 witnesses testified during the trial, submitted evidence included fingerprints of both Cynthia and James found in Corinna's car and credit card. And credit card. transactions that placed the couple near the murder sites at the times of the murder. We talked about it earlier, right? This wasn't really a couple of people who were all that interested in covering their tracks, right, covering up their murders. When they did try to dispose of evidence, obviously they were pretty lazy about it.

They threw it away in local trash cans, dumpsters, and much of it was eventually recovered and subsequently used a trial. I don't think they were smart criminals. I think they were just lucky for what they were able to get away with up until this point. Yeah, you can't call them smart criminals when in trying to dispose of a victim's identification, they're also including one piece of identification from each of them. Cynthia testified on her own behalf, and she described the extreme abuse. she experienced at the hands of James Marlowe.

She claimed she had no part in any of the murders. Cynthia's lawyers presented many witnesses who corroborated the abuse. Cynthia suffered at the hands of James Marlowe. Clinical psychologist Craig Rath took the stand to say that Cynthia's relationship with James resulted from the impaired bonding in her early life. So I think there's a lot to question about this case. I think the one thing that is kind of hard to question is the fact that he abused her. I mean, there were a number of people who were able to corroborate that point.

But I think the key to Cynthia's defense was the abuse, right? She was only there when the murders happened. because she couldn't get away from James. Right. He was an abusive person. He wouldn't let her go. Now, James' defense, on the other hand, was to blame Cynthia for everything. He didn't take the stand, but his sister, Veronica, did.

She discussed the abuse that they both suffered at the hands of their mother and father. Veronica said that she, too, was introduced to drugs and crime by her mother. And this is interesting because a lot of times we have killers who say a lot of things about their early childhood. And sometimes much of it is hard to corroborate. Right. But now you have a sister. Sure. Who's saying, yeah, this definitely happened because it happened to me too.

Right. Happened to both of us. Veronica also described her interactions with James and Cynthia around the time of the murders. but there turned out to be a big problem with Veronica's testimony, at least according to James and Cynthia. Because prior to their trial, Veronica had been convicted and incarcerated for being an accessory to the murder of Corinna Novas. During her time in prison, she began taking pills for depression. She claims that these medications interfered with her memory. And according to the defendants, what she said,

on the stand at her own trial was false. So, I mean, they had the transcript of her trial. And it was read at the trial of Cynthia and James. And they were upset with the judge's decision to allow the prosecution to read the transcript because they claimed it interfered with Cynthia and James constitutional right to a fair trial. So it's interesting, right, Gibbs? It's like Veronica is testifying for James. Right. She's saying, yeah, he had a messed up childhood. I can corroborate it because I had the same messed up childhood. But things that she said in her own trial were not favorable to James. So she really didn't help him out at all.

No, I think she did more damage than she was helpful. Well, at least the testimony that she gave in her trial did a lot of damage. So basically what Marlowe's attorney said was that, yes, he was involved in all of these counts against him, but it was Cynthia, who was the real ringleader because she was way smarter than he was. And he was willing to do anything she wanted to keep her. Now, one pivotal part of the trial was when the prosecutor, Robert Gannon, confronted Cincinnati. Cynthia. He asked her if her relationship with James was more important than the lives of their victims. And Gibbs, she responded, yes. Well, it's not going to set well with the jury. No. Now, I think she was being truthful. I'll give her that. But man, that is horrible. I get it. Your relationship with your significant other is very important. Can you go about with that relationship without killing anyone? Yes, I think you

can. So to say that your relationship is more important than, you know, the lives of these victims, man, what's going on in your head? I don't want to find out. I don't want to be inside there for even a second. The jury found Cynthia and James guilty on all counts, including kidnapping, robbery, burglary, forcible sodomy, and the murder of Corinna Novus. Cynthia burst into tears after the verdict was read, but James displayed no emotion. Both were sentenced to death on August 30th of 1989 and Cynthia was the first woman to be sentenced to death in California since the death penalty was reinstated in 1977. So basically Gibbs, the jury rejected both of their arguments. Cynthia is that she was forced by James and James's argument that Cynthia was the real ringleader.

They just didn't believe either one of them. And none of this really surprises me. I think they both bear similar levels of responsibility. Yeah. No, I agree. Now, I do think Cynthia was abused. I think the research proves that out with the number of people that came forward and said that. But my assumption is the jury didn't buy that the abuse caused her to have to

take part in the killing of Karina. Now, what did surprise me was that Cynthia was convicted on the sodomy charge. Many of the articles that I read made mention of how rare it was for a woman at that time to be convicted of sodomy. But she was there. She might have participated in some form or fashion. Yeah, that's possible. I don't know.

But I think just the fact that you were there and participated in, you know, the acts as a whole could lead you to be found guilty of, of that one too, maybe. I don't know. Yeah. Again, we don't have every piece of evidence for sure. There was discussion over whether or not there should be another trial for Linnell Murray's murder. Some thought that it would be a waste of money because it was likely to consist of months of Cynthia and James pointing fingers at each other. And, if they were found guilty, what would be the point of sentencing them to death again? Eventually, though, District Attorney Michael Capizzi announced at a press conference that Orange County

would try Cynthia and James for the murder of Linnell Murray. Three years later on March 8, 1992, James received a second death sentence and Cynthia received life in prison without the possibility of parole for the murder of Linnell Murray. In 2012, while on death row, James wrote a book called, I Wish You Were Never Born, a shocking true story of a drugged up child who was sexually, mentally, physically abused, now convicted killer. Okay, that's a very long title. It's an extremely long title.

Because of the son of Sam Law, which prevents criminals from profiting from their crimes, James can't make any money off the book. So all of the proceeds have been donated to help abused children. It's hard for me to give this guy any credit at all. But you have to like the fact that money is going to help abuse children. Yeah, I mean, that's the best thing out of all this. In this book, James blames his mother for the way he turned out. He also talks about how he doesn't like the way TV shows,

specifically an episode of wicked attraction titled Fulsome Wolf portrayed and sensationalized his story. Okay. So number one, how many killers have blamed it on their mom? A lot. Also, this guy doesn't like the way he's portrayed on a TV show. Boohoo! Cry me a River. Who gives a shit? I don't care whether you like it or not. You are a killer. Suck it up, Wolf. Yeah. The fulsome wolf's feelings are hurt, folks. Cynthia and James have been on death row for 34 years. Now, Gibbs, it's very unlikely that they'll ever be executed. Only 13 men have been executed in California since 1978. And only four women have been executed in California since 1893. Yeah. I think the last one was what, 1962? Yeah. Now, I did find it interesting that the women sentenced to death prior to Cynthia Hoffman were Susan Atkins, Patricia Crenwinkel, and Leslie Van Houten, all part of the Manson family.

Tells you something right there. But their death sentences were commuted in 1972 when the Supreme Court struck down the death penalty. So they were sentenced to death, but taken off of death row. So Gibbs, as we wrap up this case, one question that kind of ran through my mind as I was doing the research was, okay, both of these individuals had pretty jacked up childhoods. I don't think anybody would argue with that. I don't know what paths they were going to head down separately. We already know James was not headed down a good path. He already had been in Folsom. But would they have killed separately? That's my question. Was it the

union of the two of them together that ultimately led them to kill or would James have found another woman and the same thing would have happened? Would Cynthia have found another man and they would have done the same thing? That's an interesting question to me. Yeah, I mean, I really feel like James would have killed regardless. I feel that way too. And maybe he would have found a another woman, he would have been abusive to her and ultimately would have gotten her to go along with whatever nasty things were in his head. You could make the argument that if Cynthia Hoffman doesn't meet James, she never participates in the killing of anyone. You could also make the argument that she does. Sure you can. And she just does it with either.

either another guy by herself. Who knows? Yep. You know, it's kind of like the Marvel multiverse. I've been watching a lot of Marvel movies lately. I can tell since you just threw that out there. With all the different timelines. Yeah.

Right? One little thing happens and a timeline branches off and things happen. But, you know, it was a question that went through my head. And I think it's a fascinating one to ponder because there's no way to know. you can speculate, you can say what you think would have happened. I think they were both pretty bad individuals. I'm kind of with you and the fact that James was brutal. He was.

And I think he was going to do bad things regardless. It's a little more murky on what Cynthia would or would not have done without James in her life. I agree. But that's it, Gibbs, for our episode. on James Marlowe and Cynthia Hoffman. We've got some voicemails. You want to check those out?

Yes, hear them. Hey, my king of you. My name's Gracie. I am a student at Cornell University, and I enrolled in a class this fall, inspired by a few months of listening to your podcast. It's called Psychology and Law, and I just wanted to thank you guys for getting me ahead on the material. I came into the first class, very well prepared with legal jargon and knowing how great

criminal cases work and knowing about the insanity defense. And so I love your guys a podcast. I love how you highlight the humanity of the victims. I think you like your great job. And thank you so much and keep your own time taken. Bye. Wow, you got to love that, Gibbs. Yeah.

Obviously, she is a very intelligent young woman because Cornell is a great school, very hard to get in. It is. I remember when I taught there for that one. part of a semester. Yeah, you mean until they found out that you were trying to pull off a catch me if you can situation? Very similar. Yes. Professor, doctor, lawyer. You've been a lot of things. I have been a lot of things. None of them legally, but you've pulled off some amazing feats. But I did find that very cool. Now, what I will say is, please don't use anything that Gibby and

I say as answers to any tests at Cornell. That will not work out well for you. No, you're be okay with what I say. It's golden. It's gold, Jerry. It's gold. Hi, Mike. Hi, Gibby. This is Cindy and Michelle. And we listen to your podcast all the time at work. We love you guys. We've got an idea that you think you should do. It's the Susan Walsh cave in New Jersey. It's got vampires. It's got the Russian mafia. We think it's got everything that Givie could ever want. We love you guys. Bye. I love me the Russian mob. You love me the Russian mob. Okay. And some vampires. Yeah. I got it. So it's like true blood meets John Wick. Exactly. Man, that'd be a good movie. That actually would be cool. I'm in. Yeah. Let's research that. Hey, Mike and Gibby. My name is Emily from

Kansas City, and I wanted to say I thought it was really cool. He did an episode on Bob Berdella. My father knew him because of a shop at the flea market in the 80s when he was committing his murdered. It really is true when people say you can't tell a killer just by looking at him. My dad said he was a nice guy and he would have had a beer with him had Bob invited in creepy stuff man well just want to say I'm a huge fan of your show I listen to it every single day thanks again keep your own time ticking Kansas City man Kansas City here I come yeah so I do think that's very true for the most part you cannot tell a killer by looking at them sure there's the oddest tools of the world people that you kind of look at them and you just think oh right I'm not getting a good vibe but for the

most part. I think there's more Bundys. There's more Herb Baummeisters. John Wayne Gacy's. People who are able to do that kind of chameleon thing where they put on a front. And the front makes you think, yeah, good guy, good neighbor, good whatever. You can look to your left, to your right or right across from you right now. That person just might be a killer. Might be. Yeah. If you're sitting in a class at Cornell, let's say there's, I don't know how, what the class size is at Cornell, if there's 125 people in that class, one of those people might be a serial killer. Yeah. You're down in that flea market where her dad was. The odds are that there could have been a killer.

And that's a scary thought and not something that I'm trying to make light up. It's a scary thing. We're talking about very specific people in the stories that we do. but when you think about going about your daily life, with the knowledge that you're encountering strangers every day, some of these people could be killers. There's not like a red light over the top of their head flashing to give you a, hey,

this is a bad person. Right. They don't all, there's no horns, right, sticking out of their head or they're not walking around carrying a pitchfork or anything like that. Exactly. Hey, Mike.

Hey, Gibby. This is Nick. fellow Ohioan. It's funny the first night I started listening to you guys. I don't think I heard anything specific about you guys being from Ohio, but I somehow could tell a fellow Ohioan when I heard it, and I searched it, and I was right. But I've been listening for about three weeks now.

I deliver pizza down in Columbus. I listen to you guys every night when I'm delivering. I really enjoy your guys' approach to the true crime. I think I have to go with team Gibby just because from what I've heard so far I think we're both very frugal with our spending habits

anyways guys keep up the good work keep your own time ticking thanks bye but first of all go back guys I'm excited because football season's getting ready to start like around the corner right around the corner

frugal is a great euphemistic work You are cheap as all get out, though. Frugal is way too nice for you. Is that what it is? Yes. I think how busy he is delivering pizzas down by the university. Oh, yeah. Non-stop, man.

Well, and, you know, do college students really tip that well if he's actually, you know, having to deliver to college students? I know I didn't when I was a college students. They didn't have any money. probably depends on what part of the night that they are in. That's true. They're drinking a lot. They might be tipping a little bit more.

They might. They might. We had mailbag. One thing. Yeah. Julie McKenna sent you a huge thing of Twizzlers. This thing weighs like six pounds. I know, man.

It's right there. It's dense. It's heavy. And she sent me a very cool Harley Chip from Iowa. Awesome. And I have to say it's one of the better looking Harley chips. that I've ever received. But that's it, buddy,

for another episode of True Crime all the time. So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.