True Crime All The Time - James Sullivan

Episode Date: January 8, 2024

By 2006, James Sullivan was a millionaire on his second marriage. But after more than eight years the marriage was ending. His wife, Lita Sullivan, was found dead on the day of an important hearing in their divorce proceedings and ten days before they were scheduled to go to trial. The police suspected James was behind it from the beginning, but it took years to bring charges against him. Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss James Sullivan. The police suspected James was behind it from the beginning, but it took years to bring charges against him. What unfolded was a murder-for-hire plot and an alibi involving Sullivan's new girlfriend. You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital production See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 365 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson. And with me as always is my partner in True Crime, Mike Gibson. Give me, how are you? Hey man, I'm doing good. How about you? I'm doing very well. You were telling us on Patreon about your kind of starring role in that movie Salt Burn at the very end. Oh, the body double. The body double, not starring role, but you know, big role. Just didn't see your face. No, I had to wear that green mask for the green screen. For the CGI. Yeah, but everything else was all Rex West. All Rex West.

Hey, let's go ahead and give our Patreon shoutouts. We had Rosie W. Hey, Rosie. Kimberly C. Thank you, Kimberly. T.J. Lafeber. The Faber. I'm on LaFaber.

Okay. Jennifer Beard. Thank you, Jennifer. Rock and Rose jumped out to our highest level. Thank you, rocking. Kathy Turner jumped out at our highest level. I appreciate that, Kathy. We had Linda.

Hey, Linda. Coochin Star. Well, what's going on, Cookin? K.Y. Newport. What's going on, Newport? Matt Manley. Hey, Matt. Lindsey Buchwald.

Thank you, Buckwold. Carrie Buckland. There's Carrie. Emily. Thank you, Emily. And last but not least, Jane Harris. Good old Jane. And then if we go back into the vault, this week, we selected K K Kroniski.

No way. Thank you. Yes, way. Kreniski. Way. So, this is our first episode of 2004. You know, the math was very easy

on that one. It was. It was. You know, it's not so easy and never has been for me is remembering when I'm writing a date, like on a check. I don't write too many checks anymore, but like on paperwork, we used to have to do at work and stuff. It would take me weeks, you know, or into some part of January before I... right year. Yeah, before I stopped using the last year. We all knew that. We always went behind you at a correct. Correct. All my stuff. I appreciate that. But I'm looking forward to it. I don't want to say

it's going to be a great year because the last time I said that was 2020 and we know how that turned out. Yeah. And people are still giving me a hard time about that. So, but let's just say I'm optimistic. Be very optimistic. Yes, absolutely. Hey, we have an episode out right now on T-Cat Unsolved. we're covering the Axeman of New Orleans. And this is a big case, one that we've been wanting to do for a while, an unidentified serial killer who attacked a dozen, probably more people in the earliest, 20th century. So it's an old case, but it hasn't stopped people from over that entire time span,

trying to figure it out. A lot of people playing armchair detective. Very intriguing. Yeah. It really is. Yeah. So, you know, make sure you check that one out. All right, buddy, are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time?

I am ready. We're talking about James Sullivan in 2006. James Sullivan was convicted of hiring someone to murder his wife. Lita Sullivan was killed on the day of an important hearing in their divorce proceedings in 10 days before they were scheduled to go to trial. The police suspected James was behind it from the very beginning, but it took quite a long time to bring charges against him. So we know what we're dealing with here. Unfortunately, it's something that we have seen all too often, right?

A man committing violence, often murder when it comes to divorce, custody, you know, some situation like that. Right. James Sullivan grew up in Boston and graduated from. the Boston Latin School, which the South Florida Sun Sentinel described as an academically rigorous public school. I like those apples. Yeah. I mean, you know, I'm sure you probably went there.

You've been to every prestigious school known to man, apparently, somehow. I am very good at Latin, pre se per se. I got you. I get you. I don't think they, the Latin is a huge part of the, the school system, but in 1962, James graduated from the college of the Holy Cross with an economics degree. He studied business management at Boston University for a year, but didn't finish his graduate program. So, you know, he went to some good schools. You did. Yeah. Boston,

you good school. Holy Cross. It's cool. James spent years working as an accountant. He and his first wife, Catherine, had four children together. So I had somebody. come out the other day to do like the yearly furnace inspection. Yeah. You know, they do one in the winter and they do one in the, in the spring. Before summer? Before summer. And we got to talking, the guy who came out and he said he had eight kids. Oh, wow. And I was like, wow, man, that's a lot. A lot of mouse to feed. Was it chucking sons? No. No, he didn't have all of his kids with in the early 70s, the family moved from Massachusetts to Macon, Georgia. So James could work for his uncle Frank Bynert.

He owned a wholesale liquor distributorship called Crown Beverages Inc. Now, that is quite a difference, Boston to Macon, Georgia, or just Massachusetts to Georgia in general. It's a huge difference. The speech pattern slows way down. when you get into Georgia. That's right. I also think, at least in my experience, things are a little more laid back in like the Georgia, Tennessee, South Carolina area as opposed to the northwest or the northeast.

What did I say? Yeah, no, I meant the northeast. Thank you for correcting me where everything's bustling and all that. In January, 1975, Frank Beiner died of a heart attack and left his. stock in the company to James. But just two months later, Catherine filed for divorce. The divorce was granted in January 1976 and Catherine got custody of the children. But that year was the year that James met 23-year-old Lita Levinne McClinton, who would become his second wife. Lita was born in Atlanta, Georgia. On January 7th, 1952, she was described as vivacious, carrying

and gracious. According to the South Florida Sun Sentinel, Lita came from a politically prominent family. Her mother, Joanne McClinton, was a state legislator. And Lita was accomplished in her own right. She majored in political science at Spelman College, but she was also interested in the fashion industry and wanted to own a boutique one day. After college, she got a job at an upscale woman's boutique. according to CBS she met James when he came to her workplace so too smart individuals yeah sounds like good education it was said that lita was immediately charmed by james who was 11 years older than her lita's friend poppy marable told NBC he courted her as an older gentleman could he had resources what kind of resources did he have gibbs uh money i was going to say

I'm not, I don't believe she's talking about, you know, coal, gold, you know, wood, things like that. She's talking about money and the fact that he was, you know, showering maybe gifts or things onto this younger woman. But Lita's parents were not impressed. They thought James was brash and arrogant. They had some concerns about the relationship. We just mentioned, right? They weren't crazy about James personality. There was the age difference and the fact that they were an interracial couple.

Well, it is 1975. Yeah. And we're talking about the South. This is a period of time when interracial couples still faced heavy judgment, discrimination, especially in some of the southern states. According to the South Florida Sun Sentinel, Lita's family said that James Lott about his back. background. He told them his father was a publisher in California, but he actually was a typesetter for a

Boston paper. James came from a blue collar family, and he seemed ashamed of it. Lita and James got married on December 29th, 1976. According to Joanne McClinton, James didn't tell Lita. He was previously married and had four kids until the night before the wedding. Yeah, you got to put on the brakes there. That's a problem. it could be a problem. It may not be a problem. It does seem to me that the problem is you're in this relationship. It's progressing. You've decided that you're going to get married, but yet you haven't told your soon to be wife that number one, you were already married once, but did you have four children? Seems like something that would come up at a dinner at some point.

You would think so. During the courting process. By the way, I have four kids. Now, that may have been a deal breaker for her. It may not have been. But when you spring it on her the night before the wedding. Makes it a little tough to walk away. It does. I think it makes it tougher.

After the wedding, they went back to Macon, where James continued running the liquor distributorship. And Lita worked in a department store. While they were living in Macon, Lita left James once and threatened divorce. But she went home and chose to continue. you the marriage. James became a multi-millionaire with his business. In 1981, he purchased an oceanfront mansion in Palm Beach, Florida for $2 million. Okay. If you bought a house today gives for $2 million, that better be a fricking mansion. Now, it depends on where you live. Of course.

Right. I'm not, I'm excluding California and richy, richy places. But in most parts of the country, $2 million will buy you a heck of a house. Oh, yeah. Now, what will it buy you in 1981? Oh, my gosh. You know? That's a ton of money. Down there in Palm Beach, it's expensive real estate, but $2 million and 81, man, it'd be like,

Bibu, beep boob. 90 million today. We'll go with it. I have no idea. No idea how close you are on any of these. But I wish somebody would have left me a liquor distributor. ship. Yeah. We could be recording in your mansion basement in Palm Beach. So in 1983, James sold crown beverages for $5 million. And then he and Lita moved to Palm Beach full

time. So, you know, he did make quite a bit of money. James worked on creating advantageous social connections by, you know, going to spots where the wealthiest people in the city spent their time on the outside it looked like james and lita we're living this luxurious lifestyle that would make people envious but lita was miserable and how many times have you and i talked about this the difference between the lives that people have what they look like from the outside looking in versus what's really going on with someone yeah you never know you don't there's no way to know for one thing Lita missed being in Georgia. She didn't like Palm Beach because she didn't have any friends there.

And the community wasn't welcoming to her because she was black. She insisted that James buy her a townhome in Buckhead, a wealthy district of Atlanta. James bought the town home in late 1984. Lita started visiting home often. And I don't know if you've ever been to Buckhead. Yeah. It's awesome. It is.

I love that place. So even though he bought this expensive townhome for his wife, James was extremely tight with money on a day to day basis. I mean, I would say that sounds like someone else I know, but that person who's sitting across the table for me would never buy a $2 million lakehouse, would never buy a townhome in Buckhead. He would not. but still is very frugal on a day-to-day basis. Lita's father, Emery, told Dateline that although it appeared like they had money, Lita didn't have access to it.

He said, if he didn't bring home napkins from Wendy's, they didn't have napkins. Okay. I think that's taking it a little too far. I mean, I know my wife's grandmother's sometimes take sugar packets from restaurants, you know,

people do that they do but napkins don't cost that much money yeah but they're free i get it i you and i are coming at this from different angles because we have we have a different sense of um frugality i mean they put them out there for you to take yeah it doesn't mean you take half the thing to use for the next month is that why when we get door dash like you ever notice when you get door dash you open the bag up and there's never any napkins you're like because somebody like you has already taken them from the store. James was also unfaithful to Lita. She once found blonde hair in their bed.

She had dark hair, so they knew it wasn't hers. Lita's friend Poppy told NBC that she put up with it for so long because of her traditional upbringing. However, Joanne McClinton said that the final straw was when James started hiring sex workers. And I would say for a lot of people,

That would be the final straw. It might not even get to that point. Yeah. But if it did, it'd be like, okay, enough is enough, buddy. Yeah. I mean, it does not sound like a great situation that she was in, right? They got, they got some money, but she can't get access to it. She's not allowed to have it.

It sounds like he really kind of had her locked down a little bit to the point where, you know, I'll dole out a little bit of money just for what you need. you're not going to just have access to everything. Control. And at the same time, he's cheating on her and hiring sex workers. So obviously not a great marriage. Lita ended the marriage after eight and a half years. On August 12th, 1985, she moved out of the Palm Beach House permanently while James was on a trip.

And then she filed for divorce two days later. So she did the old sneakout move. Lita lived at the townhouse in Buckhead and James. and James stayed in Palm Beach. Several months later, he started dating a woman named Suki Rogers. Suki got divorced in 1986 after her husband hired a PI to prove she was cheating. The PI informed her husband that he saw Suki leaving the garage while James pulled in. And apparently, she had met James through her husband.

They were part of the same wealthy social circle. So this is maybe just one of the women. and he was cheating on Lita with. But obviously she's also cheating. There's a lot of cheating going on. Cheaters. And that is something that I've learned in the research of these cases. There is a lot of cheating going on.

There is. The divorce negotiations between James and Lita were extremely contentious. According to court documents, James accused Lita of drug abuse, adultery, and theft. Lita accused him of adultery. and financial control. So it's not going to be amicable. Very rarely is. Very rarely.

And do you think that goes up with the amount of money that, you know, the people have? Oh, for sure. Because now they both can afford attorneys, good attorneys. And there's more to haggle about. There's more to, you know, try to get your hands on, I guess. After Lita moved out, Jim's attorneys are. that she abandoned the marriage and took most of their valuables with her. Lita wanted to keep the townhouse and Buckhead, the furniture, the decorations, and the couple's

Mercedes. James was also behind on court-ordered temporary support payments and his two mortgages. So again, you can have money, but that money can go pretty quickly. Real quick. depending on, you know, how good you are with it. I'm trying to figure out why he had two mortgages if he sold that business for $5 million. Maybe he got good interest rates. I don't know.

He also had expensive habits, it seemed. You mean hiring sex workers? Yeah. Yeah. Maybe he had others. I don't know. What was said was that overall, it seemed like Lita was doing way better, right? away from James. She was getting involved in charity work and had recently started dating.

The divorce proceedings were in the final stages by the end of 1986. The final divorce hearing was scheduled for January 16th, 1987, and the trial was set for January 26th. This hearing was extremely important because it would determine how James's $8 million worth of assets would be divided, James would have to pay Lita anywhere from, let's say, a quarter of a million dollars to maybe millions of dollars, depending on the outcome of this hearing. Yeah. So it's a big deal. Yeah.

I mean, it's almost an understatement to say that there's a lot at stake, right, as it relates to this hearing. The problem is Lita would never attend the scheduled hearing. On the morning of January 16th, 1987, Lita was fatal. shot by a man posing as a flower delivery driver. Lita's friend Poppy Marable and her young daughter spent the night at the townhouse. Lita and Poppy were having coffee when Lita answered the door and was shot. Poppy ran upstairs once she heard the gunshot and she never saw the shooter's face.

Poppy got her daughter out of bed and hid with her in a bathroom closet. She didn't come out until the police arrived. She asked an officer if Lita was alive. he said barely. Lita had been shot in the head and later died at the hospital. So I mean, I just want to kind of step back and, you know,

think about what this scene must have been like. Obviously, Lita was shot and lost her life, but her friend Poppy's there. You know, she hears the gunshots. She's got a child, wants to protect the child.

And it must have been such a chaotic, scary thing. I had to be. Lita's neighbor Bob Christensen told the police that he saw the gunmen approach her door when he went outside to get his morning paper. He described him as a stocky, middle-aged white man about six feet tall. Not really narrowing things down a whole lot there. No, it sounds like a pretty big population.

A part of the population. But he must have got somewhat of a look at his face because he told Dateline, our eyes kind of locked. I was going to ask him, what are you doing here? And then I got a very bad feeling about the guy. Two nine millimeter bullet casings were found at the crime scene. But the murder weapon was never found. The box of flowers was also left behind. Investigators went to the flower shop printed on the box. The floor said one man came in to purchase flowers while a second man waited in the car.

So that's a pretty good lead. It is. You've got an eyewitness. You've got this flower box that is left behind. You can follow up on that. And the police were able to make three composite sketches based on the witness descriptions. Investigators quickly learned that Lido was in the middle of a contentious divorce. Keyword was contentious.

Now, they were going to look at James anyway, but how much more quickly are the they going to look at him when they find out that, you know, this divorce is contentious. There are hearings coming up. And Lita's parents suspected James from the beginning. Her father, Emery McClinton, called a friend within the Atlanta PD and said, this son of a bitch killed our daughter. So he was pretty certain. He knew. James was questioned and claimed he had no idea who would want to hurt Lita. He did have a strong alibi. He was in Palm Beach on the day of the murder. He played tennis with his girlfriend and went out to dinner that night after he'd received the news.

So it does seem like a pretty strong alibi. It does seem pretty good. You know, you're not in the same state. You're with someone. You go to dinner. I'm sure people can corroborate that. But what does that mean? It means most likely you couldn't have pulled the trigger.

But what it never means is that you. you couldn't have orchestrated or, you know, been the catalyst for what happened. We've heard enough of those. We know how that turns out. But it did seem like the investigation moved slowly. In May 1987, it was announced that Atlanta investigators requested James's phone records. According to the Atlanta Constitution, it was acknowledged that James was the primary suspect in Lita's death. So obviously they must have said, okay, we get it, you have an alibi, but we still think you were a part of it. You might not have pulled the trigger, but you most likely said it in motion. Yeah. According to the United States versus Sullivan,

on January 13th, 1987, a phone call was made from a room at the Howard Johnson's Motel in Sandy Springs, Georgia, to James's home in Palm Beach. hours later, a call was made from the Palm Beach House to the motel. Okay, that's interesting. They're going to want to know who you're talking to at the Howard Johnson. Sure. What was said? Tell us. James made several calls that morning to Lita's neighbor and Bucket. He also called a mutual friend to ask about Lita's whereabouts. On the morning of the murder, a collect call was made from a pay phone at a rest stop on I-85. on the way to James's Palm Beach house about 40 minutes after Lita was shot.

The call only lasted 45 seconds. The rest stop was about 30 miles from Lita's home. You know, you can say a lot in 45 seconds. Well, especially if you're only confirming that something was done. Yeah. Or, you know, something like that. Obviously, you're not talking about recipes or, you know, what you did that weekend or in 45 seconds, but I think the type of phone call that we imagine this to be, obviously,

can be done in 45 seconds. They found all this phone activity suspicious, but the DA chose not to press charges because they didn't know who the shooter was and they didn't have the murder weapon. Well, that's a problem. It is a problem. So they can think, okay, James wanted Lita Dead. He had something to do with it. he didn't shoot her.

He most likely hired someone, but we don't know who that person is. And we don't have the murder weapon. We can't really prove a lot. And I don't think the phone calls by themselves would convince a jury. Just not enough there. No. Investigators also discovered that James received a commitment for a $960,000 loan on his Palm Beach home on January 14th.

He needed this money because his two months. mortgages were due. He listed himself as unmarried on the paperwork. James got the new mortgage in March of 1987. Well, so just two days before she's murdered, he's going to go ahead and put on his application that he's single. Doesn't look great. Or, you know, he could have just been upset, knew he was getting divorced. You know, I think a defense attorney could argue that point, but as we always do, we're talking about stacking things. Sure. It's not. It's not. You know, just one thing. No, it doesn't look good. No, it definitely doesn't. On September 26, 1987, James married his girlfriend, Suki Rogers. So, you know, you could say that's not enough time,

but people could also make the argument that, you know, the relationship with Lita had been over for a long time. They weren't living together. The case stalled for the next three years. In the meantime, James ran into some trouble with the law. In 1989, he was labeled a habitual traffic violator and lost his license for five years. This was after he received 17 traffic violations in six years. And I know you know something about that. You've been labeled a habitual traffic violator as well. I pay my tab.

Why are you talking like Batman? That's right. I'm Batman. On March 8th, 1990, James was involved in a fender bender in Palm Beach. and received a citation for driving a car with an expired license in tech. Okay, I don't put a lot on that one. I myself at times have forgotten to get my license renewed in a timely fashion. Yeah.

Been there, done that. In May 1990, James said in court that his wife, Sukey was driving. Suki backed his statement under oath and the charges were dismissed. But soon he was reissued a ticket for driving with a revoke. license and Suki was arrested on a perjury charge. So they must have found out somehow that she was not driving. I think he thought he was smarter than the system. Well, don't they all?

I mean, the people that we talk about, they always think they're smarter. I think they think they're smarter than what they really are. And I think they think they're smarter than, you know, the people that they're going up against, law enforcement, whoever it is. And they're just not. So you have all this going on. and then a federal grand jury began looking into the murder of Lita Sullivan in April 1990. On June 12th of 1990, Suki filed for divorce and went into hiding.

According to the South Florida Sun Sentinel, she claimed James was foul-mouthed, name-calling, and violent tempered. He was very tight with his money and she was deathly afraid of him. Those were all quotes. They got married in 87 and already getting. divorce just three years later. But if he really was violent and she was deathly afraid of him, you could understand why. I mean, I do think he was very tight with his money. That's come up before. Yeah. I think that part's a given. In one document, she was quoted to saying a year ago,

he told me that I was dealing with a dangerous person, meaning him in a dangerous game and that I had better watch out. His previous wife was murdered in Atlanta. And I thought that was strange because, you know, they were kind of dating at the time. I'm sure she knew that. Yeah. So what is that? A threat? Because it sounds like one to me. I think it is a threat. Because you're not saying that you better watch out my previous wife was murdered if you didn't have something to do with it because why would she need to be careful or watch out if some random stranger. had murdered his wife. That wouldn't be much of a threat.

James and Suki's divorce trial started in September 1990. She came forward with shocking testimony. She said James confessed to her that he planned and paid for, led it to be murdered. Okay, that's bombshell. That is. Type stuff there. I'm sure the prosecutor hearing this at this divorce trial is like,

hmm, we need to move forward on this. Sukey's attorney said that James confessed on the night she was charged with perjury for offering an alibi for his traffic ticket. And maybe that's how he got her to do it. I don't know. Suki Rogers testified per the Atlanta Constitution, he hired someone to murder her. I thought I'd be next. So I think we're getting a little more insight into, you know, why maybe she was deathly afraid of him. because she had knowledge that others didn't,

that he had already had one wife murdered, well, was to think that he wouldn't do it again. Yeah, because he had no problem doing it the first time. Doesn't seem like it. Now, she said she didn't ask for details.

After James confessed, the reason it was brought up was because James was worried about going to jail for the traffic offense. He told her they should sell their house and move out of the country. Seems a little drastic. I get it. You've racked up a lot of traffic violations, but realistically, how long are you going to spend in jail?

Unless there was an underlying reason he's saying this. Yeah, maybe. The divorce trial recessed in late September. In October, Suki appeared before the federal grand jury, which was still investigating Lita's murder. So I think that's back to your point, Gibbs. You know, when they in Georgia hear about what she's saying is, in this divorce trial, okay, they're going to want to move forward with that. The divorce trial resumed in November. This time, James's attorney accused Suki of arranging Lita's murder. And this does seem to come up in a lot of cases that we do. You know, while you're defending your client, it seems like a lot of attorneys take that tact.

Okay. Whoever's attacking their client, they're going to turn it back around on. them. Yeah. The authorities felt like they had to discount the testimony on both sides because it was made in the middle of another contentious divorce. And I kind of see where they're they're coming from on that. Yeah, she's saying that James told her that he had Lita killed. But at the same time, there's a benefit to her for doing that at the time she's doing it because of this divorce. In November 1990, Suki pleaded no contest to perjury and was sentenced to probation. James pleaded no contest to the traffic violation and received probation as well.

So that's why I was having a hard time figuring out, hey, we need to sell the house and move out of the country. Obviously, they couldn't have had to do with the traffic violations alone. He must have thought there was something bigger coming that he needed to get away from. The divorce trial finally ended on December 10th, 1990. Suki's request for alimony was rejected. She was allowed to keep her wedding ring, but not much else. So she did not do very well at all. Only three years, though, so.

Yeah, but three years, no alimony, nothing. Yeah. On December 11th, 1990, James was arrested in charge with two counts of perjury and soliciting perjury for persuading Suhita lying court about the traffic violation. On May 30th, 91, James pleaded no contest to the perjury charges and received a year in jail and a year on probation. He was given almost a month to surrender himself. It's a pretty healthy amount of time.

Hey, it seems like it, doesn't it? Just make sure you're back here a month from today. Take your time, get your affairs in order. Yeah. It seems like James was able to work. out some sort of deal, though, because he was serving a year of house arrest when he was arrested on September 10th, 1991 on firearms charges. On September 6th, the FBI and Atlanta police searched his home and found a sawed-off shotgun and three other weapons. All right, this guy cannot stay out

of trouble. Yeah, that's just like common sense stuff here. Now, you can own a shotgun, but they don't like it when you saw it off. Well, the barrel. I don't know if they, like you owning a shotgun while you're under house arrest. Oh, that may be true too. Yeah. Didn't think about that. But I definitely know you can't saw off a shotgun legally in most places. I'm assuming anywhere.

Well, if they don't know about it, what can it hurt? Well, that's like saying if a tree falls in the forest, then nobody's around to hear it. Did it really fall? Yes, it fell. There just wasn't anybody there to hear it. So in your logic, you can do. anything illegal as long as nobody knows about it. How'd you know the tree fell, though?

Because I went back and I witnessed it the next day. Okay. Three days later on September 13th, FBI agents arrested 33-year-old Thomas Bruce Henley, described as a career criminal with convictions for robbery and aggravated assault. He was believed to be an accomplice, but not the shooter in the Lita Sullivan case. Now, you know how you don't want to be described? is as a career criminal. No, it's not good.

An affidavit was released a few days later that revealed the potential motive. James wanted Lita killed to avoid the costly trial. He was also at risk of losing his mansion because Lita refused to sign the note that would give James a loan to pay off his mortgage. So now we're getting into, you know, the area maybe of why he had to put on there that he was unmarried to get that loan. Sounds like we're talking about murder for greed. And if you had to guess, would you, would you say that the majority of murders fall into

the category of greed based in some former fashion? Yeah, I think you're safe to say that. I think it's probably correct. I don't know for sure. But it seems like a lot of them come down to either getting money or getting out of paying money. The affidavit alleged that Thomas Henley was the one who made the phone call to James on the day of the murder. The florist identified Henley as the man who purchased the flowers.

So to me, you know, that means that probably whoever was driving the car or waiting in the car was maybe the shooter. The affidavit was based on information from an informant named Johnny Austin Turner, who said, he learned about the murder in April 1987 from Henley and another man associated with Henley. Turner told investigators that Henley said he was paid by the woman's husband.

Henley said he bought flowers in the morning and shot a black woman. Investigators believe the second man was 40-year-old Marvin Maribel. The ex-husband of Lita's friend Poppy Maribel. Johnny Turner identified Maribel

in a lineup as the man associated with Henley. And Marable was a known associate of James Sullivan, and in 1986, he pleaded guilty to illegally tapping his wife's phone before their divorce. He picked up conversations between Poppy and Lita. James admitted that he received tapes of the conversation. So there was a lot going on here. Number one, there has been a number of contentious divorces. A lot of illegal activities. A lot of illegal activities. but you know think about trying to find someone to help you in a scheme to murder your soon-to-be ex-wife. Who are you going to turn to?

Her best friend's husband? Seems strange even if you are close. Yeah. On October 9th, 1991, charges were dropped against Thomas Bruce Henley in part because he had not been indicted within 30 days. According to the Atlanta Constitution, the judge called the case, mighty weak at the arena. So again, you know, when we talk about these cases, there are some where the evidence is overwhelming and, and there are a lot where there's a lot of smoke.

There's a lot of circumstantial stuff, but it would be hard to say that it's strong, evident. Yeah. Is it good enough to put somebody away? Right. And I think in, in the case. of Thomas Henley, the judge said, no, it wasn't. On January 10th, 1992, James Sullivan was indicted on five counts by a federal grand jury. He was indicted under the murder for higher statute and was

charged with making four phone calls with the intent to murder Lita and one count of causing another to use a firearm and a crime. Okay, I've never heard of that one. I mean, I get what they're saying, right he's the mastermind yeah he orchestrated it yep he orchestrated the murder he was indicted six days before the expiration of the statute of limitations and you know that had to have been a factor i'm sure they were watching that date very closely they didn't want to let that go by and let this guy walk if if they thought he really you know set it up james trial started on november 3rd 1992. Prosecutors argued that James was preoccupied with his wealth and didn't want to lose anything in the divorce, which is why he paid to have Lita killed. And we've seen many men do this. They don't want to

give up what they have in a divorce, money, kids. They don't want to pay alimony. They don't want to pay child support. Jurors heard a taped conversation between James and a friend where he gave details about the murder weapon that had not been released. He said the gun had nine shells or cartridges and was an automatic weapon used by drug cartels. Okay. I don't know where he got his hands on an automatic weapon, but Pillar Bissell, the wife of one of James's business associates, testified that James received three calls in his study on January

14th, 1987. He was hosting a dinner party at his Palm Beach. each mansion. He seemed distracted and anxious that evening. James took the third call around 2.30 p.m. She said she heard him say get flowers. You mean get flowers like get that flower box to hide that gun? I mean, I think if you're the the prosecution, that's the connection you're trying to make. But on November 23rd, 1992, the judge threw out the murder for hire case due to insufficient evidence. On June 4th, 1993, James pleaded guilty to firearms possession and was sentenced to 18 months of limited house arrest and 42 months probation. I don't think this guy still has seen the

inside of a jail. No, he's definitely been lucky. Or was it because he had a boatload of money? Privileged. And he was able to hire, you know, top-notch attorneys. Lita's parents filed a wrongful death suit against James. which went to trial in February 1994. On February 23rd, a civil jury found that James arranged to lead his murder. He was ordered to pay $4 million in damages. It's a healthy amount.

It is. It also strikes me as being about half of what his assets were listed at at one time. I wonder if maybe that's how they came up with that. And you wonder if he thought about why not you just, pay that from the get go. Well, everybody knows, right? The burden of proof is a lot lower in a civil trial than it is in a criminal trial. The next update in the case occurred four years later. So, you know, yeah, he's got to pay a bunch of money. He still has not seen the inside of a cell.

In April 1998, it was announced that the Atlanta police, DA's office and the Georgia Bureau of investigation traveled out of state to interview a new witness. After a TV program about Lita's murder aired in 1998, a woman named Belinda Trahan reached out to investigators with critical information. Belinda was in a relationship with a man named Philip Anthony Harwood for about three years in the 80s. They lived together in Albemarle, North Carolina. Tony Harwood previously worked for a moving company and delivered for an to James's home in Palm Beach in November 1986. When he came home, he told Belinda he was going to do a job for a man who wanted to, quote,

take out his wife because she was causing trouble during the divorce. This is according to Sullivan versus State. He was going to get $25,000 with half up front. Now, Belinda said she didn't believe him because apparently he loved to brag. And there are a lot of people like that. You know, they like to puff themselves up and, for sure. You know,

tell tall tales because they want to make themselves seem more interesting than what they really are. In January, 1987, Tony went on a trip from North Carolina to Georgia, but said he was unsuccessful because the woman didn't answer the door. According to NBC, Belinda told him, anyone knows that if you wanted to get a woman to answer the door,

all you would have to do is take flowers to the door. Belinda later said she regrets saying this because she didn't really believe Tony at the time. And whether that's true or not, I'm sure she did regret it. Oh, big time. Tony went on another trip to Georgia and told her the job was done. Again, she didn't believe him until he took her to a restaurant where a stranger sat down and slid a newspaper across the table. inside of which was an envelope full of cash.

And the first thing that kind of jumped out of me is, number one, why is he telling, you know, his girlfriend all of these details about the fact that he's going to kill someone? And then why does he take her to the payoff? He must have really trusted her that she wasn't going to say anything. Maybe he felt the more she was involved, less likely she would go telling somebody because at that point, she had knowledge about it.

Well, I didn't think about that. Belinda said that she and Tony broke up after he was paid. She moved to Texas and eventually got married, but he had been threatening her all these years. In January 1998, she asked him, did you kill that woman or what? He responded, I don't want to discuss that right now. The authorities agreed not to press charges. If Belinda cooperated, she was shown a photo lineup and said she was 40% sure that James

Sullivan was the man from the diner. A few minutes later, she said she was 100% sure. Okay, those are pretty far apart. So she's 60% sure, more sure after a few minutes. And to me, that's a little bit scary because 40%, you ain't doing much with that. Now, if you say you're 100% sure, that's different. I'd even take 95%. Well, I know I'm 120% sure, full of shit.

I thought that's what you're going to say. I know I'm 120% full of shit. Yeah. The police went to the moving company and found the invoice in an attic with James and Tony's signatures on it. This gave them proof of connection between the two men beyond Belinda's statement. And to me, this is big because, you know, we've been talking a lot about this person saying that, you know, I heard this or this person told me that, but not a lot of

of evidence to back up those statements. And here I think is where you get some of that. Belinda was terrified that James or Tony would find out she was the witness. According to CBS, she spent four months hiding out in a crawl space under her house with a loaded gun. That's crazy. That is a long time, four months. Her husband Tim Trahan said that he wouldn't put it past James to pay $100,000 to kill the witness that would, send him to prison for the rest of his life. And that's a true statement. I mean, if you're going to pay $25,000 to kill your wife so that you just don't have to pay some money, you're definitely going to pay more than that to ensure that you don't spend the rest of your life in prison.

Yeah, easily. I'm just trying to imagine spending four months in a crawl space. There's some pretty rough crawl spaces out there. I don't know if there are a lot of nice, really nice crawl spaces. They're not meant to be super nice. Well, that's true. Yeah. Not going to find a luxury cross-based. No. The police asked Belinda to call Tony and get him to talk because they wanted more evidence against James. As reported by CBS, when Tony was asked why he didn't turn James in, he said, I thought about that too. But see, all he can do is testify that I was the one. Belinda told him, I didn't ever figure it was really real. You know that. Tony responded, oh, yeah. yeah, it was real. I live it every day. Sometimes I cry myself to sleep at night thinking about it.

And that's a very interesting statement. You know, I think a lot of times when we talk about someone killing a person, we assume that they're cold-hearted or that, you know, they have like a serial killer type mentality. But I don't think a lot of them do. Actually, I think most people, let's say in a situation like this where they probably never killed anyone before. It's going to haunt him for the rest of their life. I think for a lot of people. Yeah, I think they're always going to be having nightmares. You ended someone's life for $25,000.

That's going to have to crop up, at least in the back of your mind at points in time. I also think, you know, be wondering when and if, we're not even nils. if just when are they going to figure it out and come get me? Yep. That looking over your shoulder all the time, that would be miserable. On April 19th, 1998, Tony Harwood was arrested in charge with felony murder. According to retired GBI agent John Lang, when Tony was arrested, he said, I've been waiting for you boys for a long time. I've been waiting for this day for a long time. So I think that goes back to what you were saying. Yeah, probably a big relief, actually. Yeah, I mean, nobody wants to go to jail, but could there possibly be relief that you're no longer

having to look over your shoulder every day? Maybe. He pulled a piece of paper out of his wallet that had James Sullivan's number written on it. Tony Harwood gave a full confession about how James hired him to kill his wife and admitted to making the phone call after Lita was killed. But Harwood wasn't the most reliable witness because of his criminal record. But even with that, prosecutors felt like they finally had enough to press charges against James. On April 24th, 1998, a warrant was issued for James Sullivan's arrest. So it did take a long time in over 10 years. But as we've kind of talked about, you know, they were compiling evidence.

It just never seemed as though they had enough. Yeah, they needed to make sure that if they were going to take this trial, they were going to win it. Yeah, because you only get one shot, right? Well, that's what Eminem says. I told you, I used to live just a couple of miles away from Eminem. Did you? Yeah.

10 mile? In Detroit. Yeah. I lived at like 11 mile, so maybe three miles. A few miles away. A few miles away. You sound tougher when you said a couple. Well, there's a big difference between those three miles.

Let's just put it that way in Detroit. Yeah. The difference between like eight mile and 11 or 12 mile, night and day. night and day. So they're going to arrest James. The problem is he fled to Costa Rica. The authorities were able to track down his address, but he was no longer there. After that, he fled to Panama, Venezuela, and eventually Thailand. The authorities launched an international manhunt, but it took years to find James. Unlike the average person, he had the wealth and resources to go on the run for a long time. Makes a difference. It makes a huge difference in everything we

talk about, right? Hiring an attorney. Can you get your hands on a lot of cash to flee the country? Most people can't. No. You know, a lot of us were living paycheck to paycheck. We have, you know, however many thousands of dollars in our savings account. We don't have a big chunk that we can just take out, put in a duffel bag and jot off and jot off or jet off or however you say it. And he's got the cash to get fake documents if he needs them. Sure. I know that's how you've been supporting yourself for a long time. I'm pretty good at those.

Making fake documents. Yeah. In May 2002, the case was featured on America's Most Wanted. A few months later, a police officer in Thailand who was familiar with the case, spotted James and contacted the FBI. And James was arrested on July 1st, 2002. And to me, that is just amazing. We talked earlier about, you know, a program that was done on Lita's murder.

And it caused someone to, you know, call in with information. So now the case is profiled on America's Most Wanted and a police officer in Thailand. Spots, James. How amazing is that? That's awesome. The authorities believed James was able to move his money overseas during his time on the run because he continued living a wealthy lifestyle. According to the Palm Beach Post, James purchased the BMW and a luxury beachfront condo in Thailand.

This is like Jason Bourne. Now, the Bangkok Post reported that his condo was worth $96,000 and that James's Thai bank account received monthly transfers over $1,000. So what I'm getting from that is that your money goes along with. way in Thailand? I think so. You know, luxury beachfront condo, a lot cheaper in Thailand, apparently than Palm Beach, which does make a lot of sense. It took over a year to get James back to the U.S. to face trial. On February 12, 2003, Tony Harwood pleaded guilty to voluntary manslaughter and was sentenced to 20 years in prison. He agreed to testify against James at trial. And that's a pretty light sentence for the person who pulled the trigger.

I'm assuming a lot of that had to do with them needing him to testify against James. Yeah, for sure. I think 20 years is pretty light for what he did. I think it is too. But if you have to have him to get James, I think prosecutors have to make those kind of deals all the time. Yeah. James was finally extradited on.

March 26, 2004. On January 28, 2005, Bibb County DA Howard Sims announced that prosecutors were investigating the 1975 death of James' uncle Frank Biner. Authorities wanted to take a second look at Frank's death because it benefited James financially.

In March, it was announced that his body would be exhumed and an autopsy performed. Testing was finished in June, and no evidence of foul play was detected. Probably because either there was no foul play or too much time went by. Yeah, possibly. I mean, you can't blame them for maybe thinking that, well, if he was able to do this, was he also able to kill his uncle?

Because let's face it, he did inherit a lot from his uncle. He really did. On November 21st, 2005, the Georgia Supreme Court ruled the judge, the judge, James could be retried for murder. James and his attorneys had argued double jeopardy because he had already been acquitted, but he was told he could be prosecuted once in federal court and once in state court. Jury selection started on January 5th, 2006, and testimony started on February 27, 2006. Prosecutors argued James had lead a kill to avoid losing millions of dollars and losing his mansion.

And we've seen people kill or hire people to kill for a lot less. Just for a few bucks, it seems like. It seems like. As we talked about earlier, at the time of the murder, James was trying to refinance a mortgage on his Florida home. The bank told him he couldn't refinance without his wife's signature. They gave him a letter dated January 14th, 1987, within a week of Lita's death. James called the bank and told them he could complete the refinance.

Yeah, about that loan I need it. That's no longer a problem getting that signature. So let's move forward with it. Yeah. I mean, it doesn't seem like anything at the time probably. But when you have the whole or know the whole scope, it seems pretty damning.

That loan officer is probably like, dang, man, he really wanted to close this loan. Lida's divorce lawyer and her friend testified that James wanted to limit how much money Lita would win in court and Lita was killed on the day of the hearing that would decide how much James had to pay her. And we'd known that from the beginning, right? The timing of this just made him look terrible.

It really did. Put him at the top of the list. Lita's neighbor Bob Christensen testified about seeing the shooter, carrying flowers. to lead his door, he picked Tony Hartwood out of a photo lineup, which makes sense because Tony confessed to doing it. Christensen said that James called him on the morning of January 13th to ask if he'd seen anything strange around the house. He thought this was odd because he hadn't spoken to James in years.

And that would be odd. Be strange. Now, at the time, it would be strange because you hadn't talked to this person and in a while. But then once Lita's killed, I think looking back on it, it would be even that much more strength. Yeah. But no doubt, Tony Harwood was the prosecution's main witness. He testified that he met James two months before the murder when he delivered a piano to the home in Palm Beach. He was there for no more than two hours. But during that time, James propositioned him for murder. Isn't that strange?

It's so, I never understand it. How does the conversation start? Hey, you did a great job delivering the piano. You know what else I think you'd be really good at? Murdering my wife. How you feel about that? You open to that? And if you're not, please don't tell anybody that I asked you.

I mean, it just seems like you're going so far out on a limb. Right. With somebody you've never met. And maybe I'm even more amazed that, So many people take these individuals up on their offer. I get it. $25,000 was probably a lot of money to Tony Harwood at that time. Oh, yeah.

But to kill someone? Wow. According to NBC, Tony testified that James said, you know, I've got this wife of mine up in Atlanta. And she is just trying to take everything I've got. And I don't know what to do about it. I need somebody to help me take care of my problem. do you know anybody that can possibly take care of my problem for me because I need some help.

Now, Tony said he thought James was joking, but when he received $12,500 in the mail, he realized he was serious. He's like, well, I got half the money. Why not just take half the money and not commit the murder? James wanted Lita killed before Christmas, but the plans were delayed until January. on January 13, 1987, Tony and two friends drove to Georgia and checked into a Howard Johnson's motel. At 5.30 a.m., one of his friends went to Lita's home, but she didn't answer the door. James suggested he used flowers to get Lita to come to the door. Anthony returned to Atlanta with his friend John on January 15th.

On the morning of the 16th, he went to a flower store and gave John money to buy roses. He drove to Lita's town home. John took the flowers to the door and rang the bell. John then shot Lita when she answered the door. Afterwards, Tony called James's home and told him Merry Christmas. This was confirmation that Lita was dead. That was the 45 second phone call. I'm assuming it was, although it doesn't take 45 seconds to say Merry Christmas,

so I'm not really sure. Some of that could have been getting James on the phone, maybe. Maybe. But Tony's testimony didn't go exactly as the prosecution had planned. They presented a registration card from the motel with Harwood's handwriting on it, as well as the phone records. According to NBC, when Tony was asked by the prosecutor, if he agreed to participate in the death and murder of Lita Sullivan, he responded, to be honest, I would have to answer no. As quoted by CBS, he said, first of all, I didn't agree to kill his wife. What I agreed to do was to find someone to do it.

All right. So a little curveball for the prosecution. It is. Now, we could be talking about semantics here, but Tony contradicted his ex-girlfriend Belinda's statement that a man gave money at a restaurant table. He said the man paid him in the men's restroom, which meant she wouldn't have seen this transaction.

Tony admitted that he had lied to the police about the case in the past, and said he once told Belinda a different story that the mafia was involved. And I think for Tony, this is some dangerous territory here. He's already made his plea deal. You did? So why stir the pot? Yeah, that's kind of what I was thinking. Belinda Trahan testified that when Tony returned from his work trip to Palm Beach,

in November 1986, he told her that some white guy wanted to take out his black wife because she was going to divorce him and he didn't want her to have anything. It's very specific. It is. Now, does it mean it's 100% truthful? No, but it is very specific. She didn't believe him, thought he was lying to cover up the fact that he cheated on her. Okay.

Guys cover that up. I'm sure all the time. It does seem strange to try to cover up the fact that you're cheating. with a story about, you know, you being hired to kill someone. There are other stories that you could tell to cover up the cheating that don't make you out to be a killer or conspiring to kill or whatever. Best to leave that to the side. She testified that Tony traveled to Georgia in January and told her he was unsuccessful at completing the job. Once again, she confirmed that she suggested he bring flowers.

to the door. And she told that same story about seeing a stranger slide a newspaper to Tony at a restaurant, which was hiding an envelope full of cash. The prosecution asked her if she could identify the stranger who came to the restaurant. She identified him as James Sullivan in court. Under cross-examination, she admitted that she didn't know the name or location of the restaurant. They accused her of being coached. They argued that Belinda identified James in court, but she struggled to identify him in a photo lineup back in 1998. The defense alleged that she might have lied to get the reward money. And that was, you know, one of my questions kind of as we were going through the research. What reason would Belinda have to lie? It sounds like she had gone on with her life. She was married.

Her and Tony hadn't been together for, you know, some time. But if there really was reward money, that could be a reason. It could be. Everybody's got some level greed in them. Sure. They also attacked Tony's credibility as a witness. James's defense brought up the fact that there was no murder weapon and no financial records to support the state's claim that he paid $25,000 for the murder,

even though the state claimed part of it was paid in. year's check. Well, this guy had plenty of cash. You think he could have figured out a way to do this without leaving a paper trail. Meaning that then there would have been no financial records. Yeah. At all. They had James's divorce lawyer testified that the divorce was no more contentious than other cases he'd handled. Finally, the defense argued that there was no way to verify what was said in any of the phone call. And that is true. I mean, really, you just have to. testimony of someone saying, this is what I said on the phone call. Yeah.

On March 10th, 2006, James Sullivan was found guilty of murder. On March 14th, he was sentenced to life in prison. His appeal to the Supreme Court of Georgia was denied on September 22nd, 2008. In January 2014, Emery and Joanne McClinton filed a lawsuit against James Sullivan to preserve their rights to the wrongful death judgment. With interest, James owed them $13.5 million by this point. But they hadn't received a dime.

They had to file a new suit to be entitled to the money after 20 years. It's a big chunk of change. Well, it is. And I think this is the problem with civil suits. You can get a big award. But getting the money, that's sometimes a different story. That's like night and day.

The family's attorneys filed a different suit to stop James from declaring bankruptcy to void the wrongful death verdict. They discovered that his defense attorney in his criminal trial was paid with a Swiss bank account. Oh, okay. The old Swiss bank account. Which I know you're very familiar with. Good banking. They spent two decades trying to track down the money. They believed James was hiding millions in Switzerland.

and other foreign accounts. And I think, you know, this goes back to his time on the run. He's traveling overseas and they thought he was hiding money in different places. Well, they used to say, you know, put your money over in a Swiss bank account or a Cayman Island. Sure. Those were the two things. Yeah.

From all the movies I've seen. Exactly. In 2015, the McClintons were able to persuade a judge in Palm Beach County to give them more time to investigate. and find the money. But if James dies before the search is over, the McClentons could still receive any money in his estate. Now, what happens, Gibbs, if he dies,

and that money is just sitting in a Swiss bank account? Does he just sit there? I think so unless he has an error that can try to make a claim for it if they can ever find out that it's actually there. Right. So the McClentons were in their 80s at the time, you know, of the publication of this source, I wasn't able to see where they were deceased, couldn't, you know, locate like a find a grave profile or anything like that. So it seems like they, they may still be a lot.

Tony Harwood was released on May 25, 2018, after serving 20 years in prison. According to the Georgia Department of Corrections, Offender query, James Sullivan is 82 years old and incarcerated at the Augusta State medical prison. So obviously he's not probably doing real well. If he's at the medical prison, I think as we wrap this one up, Gibbs, there was a lot of unique things here. I mean, the reason for the murder was not unique. We've seen that time and time again. I think in James Sullivan, you had a guy who had considerable wealth. And like we kind of talked about earlier on, you know, what does that money allow you to do? It gives you a lot of flexibility, you know, gives you more money to hire better attorneys. It gives you access potentially to a lot more cash

than most people could get their hands on. Maybe you could pay a hitman in cash. Those are to evade the authorities. Yeah. Yeah. Go on the run, stash money all over the place. Money is not everything. But it does. allow you to do certain things. Comes in handy during certain situations. Yes, that other people can't do. And then I think, you know, when you look at the fact that investigators were almost certain that he had something to do with it right from the very beginning.

Sure. But it took 19 years, you know, to kind of get to that point. And for what, right? what what caused him to feel like he needed to do that what caused him to feel like he needed to kill lead it was almost like the divorce was getting ready to be finalized he couldn't control her financially he definitely didn't want to you know give up his millions his half any of any of them i don't think yeah so he made the decision to have his wife murdered so that he wouldn't have to give up anything.

Yeah, well, how'd that work out for him? Except your soul. Yeah. You know, you're going to lose that, but you get to keep your, your millions, and you're going to spend the rest of your life in prison. I do think it's sad that he got to live so many years free, that it just, you know, it took him so long to put it together, but sometimes that's just the way it works.

But in the end, they got their guy. They did. They did. I just, I would have loved to have seen him do more time. Sure. Yeah. You know, to be convicted earlier, but at least he, uh, at least he got what was coming to him. But that's it for our episode on James Sullivan. We got some voicemails. You want to check those out? Let's hear them. Hey, it's your friendly late in print from Illinois from Missouri. I'm actually calling because I'm a little bit behind because my husband and I love listening to you guys. But when we go on little trips, He asked me to stop listening so we can binge listen as we're traveling. But anyway, we got to your Kai McDilvery case that you were saying that you weren't sure what they would do with rinsing evidence with freshwater and maintenance. So not to give out too much information for those criminal minds out there, but yes, there is some processes what we do actually rinse with fresh water.

And yes, we can get prints off of items that were some urgent water. It's a very cool job and I listen to you guys on the daily basis as I do my job, as I am currently doing right now. Well, thanks, guys, and keep up the great work. I am team T-Cat all the way. Thanks. Bye. All right. I always love it when she calls in because she's doing the job.

She's doing it. So she's got the, you just do Boston doing it? She's doing it, doing it. Yeah. I don't even know what accent that was. But she has that knowledge. She does. The very specific knowledge that can answer.

some of the questions that we have. She shared it. She did. Hey, guys, this is Jesse from Atlanta, and I'm listening to your episode on Carla Hughes, and I was enjoying your banter about Gibby's love of equestrian arts. And I was really waiting for one of you to mention Gibby's assholes chaps. So I was a little disappointed. I was just a missed opportunity.

I love you guys. Just teasing. Keep your own time ticking. Bye. Now, I think you're absolutely right. It was a missed opportunity. I didn't think about it. You know, over the years, I have been given a lot of, I've gotten a lot of flag for my assless chaps comment. Well, I was watching the office the other day and they were talking about assless chaps. See? So I'm not the only one who has said it.

But I'm the only one that wears them. Well, I think a lot of people wear them. You're the only one who wears them with. anything else, which is what makes them assless. You know where I didn't wear them? When I did the body double. In that movie, Saltburn. Yeah. And I don't think you do it when you go do your prison shows either.

No. That would be. Only want to the senior citizens home. Yeah, the senior homes. Yeah. It's a big hit over there. Yeah, they like it. All right, buddy.

We had no mailbag. So that is it for another episode of True. crime all the time. So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.