True Crime All The Time - Jean Harris

Episode Date: June 8, 2020

In 1980, Jean Harris shot and killed her lover Herman Tarnower. She was arrested and charged with murder. The case made headline news all over because Jean was the headmistress at a prestigious school for girls and Tarnower was a cardiologist who co-authored the best-selling book, "The Complete Scarsdale Medical Diet Book". But what exactly happened that fateful night of March 10, 1980? Did Jean Harris commit murder or was Tarnower shot in a tragic accident?Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss this infamous case. Tarnower had become a household name after his best-selling diet book began filling household's all over the country. He and Jean had a 14-year relationship that ended in his death. What had gone so terribly wrong during that 14-year period? Jean's side of the story is that she was trying to end her life when Herman was shot accidentally after wrestling for the gun. But would a jury believe her?You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital ProductionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 186 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson. And with me as always is my partner in True Crime, Mike Gibson. How are you? I'm good, man. How about you? I'm doing great. Good.

I am actually having a very good week. That's good. About ready to get my taxes done, which I've put off for a very long time. You're like, hey, they extended it until July 15th. I'm going to take it all the way. I've taken a big chunk of that extension. But I'm finally just a. about ready to get that done. So that'll be a kind of a weight off my shoulders. Yeah.

Been out right in the motorcycle a little bit. Did you? Yeah, because the weather's getting nice. That's good. That's always a happy time for me. Think about getting my bike out as well. I think you keep threatening to buy one so that we can go on a road trip. And I think it'd be awesome, man. We'll go cross country. Yeah. We will stop at every pharmaceutical place to get the Advil and that we need for our backs because we decided to take our Harleys across state line. No, I was going to say we'll stop at fans' houses and they'll put us up and we'll drink and party and then we'll get back on the bike the next day and go somewhere else. That would be fun.

That would be a blast, man. Yeah. All right, buddy. We continue to have an amazing amount of Patreon support. Can't thank everyone enough. So let's give some shoutouts. We had Dina Jepison. Hey, how you doing, Dina?

Lizzie Colvin. What's going on, Lizzie? Christina Brown jumped out at our highest level. Hey, Christina. Heidi Griffin jumped out at our highest level. Really? Thanks, Heidi. We had Kimberly Phillips.

What's going on? Kimberly. Risa Tyvind. Hey, Risa. Heidi Davis. Thank you, Heidi. Amber. What's going on, Amber?

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What's going on, Haley? Jamie Meckland. Hey, thanks, Mecklin. Serenity Perez. Oh, man, Serenity. Serenity now. Yeah. Lori McKinsey.

Hey, Lori. And Lindsay Michelle jumped out of our highest level. What's going on, Lindsay? So big thanks to all the new Patreon supporters. Absolutely. And then if we go back into the vault. Let's do it. This week we selected Kay Cole.

Been with us a long time, big supporter of the show. Appreciate that, Kay. We really appreciate it. We had some PayPal donations as well, Thomas Quisenberry. Well, why does Quisenberry sound familiar? There was a pitcher back in the day for the Kansas City Royals, I think. Really? Quisenberry, quezenberry.

something like that. I always think more of a kid show, Quezenberry. Oh, I don't know. But, yeah. Who knows what you're thinking about him? Terrence Schwab. Hey, Terrence.

Lori Dale. What's going on, Lori? And Anna Maria Miele. Hey, meyaly. So big shout out there as well. Awesome. All right. Gibbs, right now we have an episode out on true crime all the time unsolved.

We do. We're actually in our own backyard near Dayton. Yeah. We're talking about a couple of different sets of, sets of unsolved murders. The unsolved murders of Gloria Buck and her two children, Scott and Tracy. And then not that much later in time, Linda Sue Dirth was murdered. Yeah.

And that remains unsolved as well. All of these murders happened the year I was born in 1973. So obviously when you have murders this close together. Right. There's going to be things to talk about as far as conditions. connections and we'll get into all that. Major connections, yeah. But it's a good episode.

Make sure you check that out. All right, Gibby, are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time? I'm ready. We're talking about Gene Harris, who became quite infamous after she killed her lover, Herman Tarnour. Now, these types of killings happen all the time. And I would say most don't make the news and definitely don't make the, national news. Right. Let's put it that way. But this became front page news in all the papers.

Because of who Gene Harris killed, Dr. Herman Tarnauer was the author of the wildly popular Scarsdale Diet Book. And Gibbs, I'm sure, many people of a certain age. That's what I'm calling it now, by the way. It's not middle age. It's not getting older. We're of a certain age. We are of a certain age. I think there's a classiness in that. phrase. So I'm going to start using that. Some have more certain age than others. Some are more certain about it than others. You're right. But most of us who are of that age will probably remember this book very well. I think there was one in a lot of people's homes. I can remember distinctly that my mom had one. Yeah. We didn't have a huge bookshelf, but she had, it was almost like a curio cabinet

that had some books in it. And I can picture that. book, you know, in the row of books that were there. You didn't have a library like I did, huh? No, no, we weren't fancy. You didn't have that wall-to-wall library? No, we didn't have that wooden ladder. Ladder with the rollers that you could roll all around. Yeah, as you can tell, I read everything in there. Yeah, that's how you accumulated your immense vocabulary. It's really how the essence of Gibby became what it is. It is what it is. It is what it is.

Herman Tarnauer was a cardiologist who espoused a high protein, low carb diet back in the 1970s. It became known as the Scarsdale Diet, named after Scarsdale, New York, where he practiced. In 1978, he co-authored the book, The Complete Scarsdale Medical Diet, and it became a huge hit. It spent 49 weeks on the New York Times bestseller. list, 31 of those at number one. Really? Yeah. And then when the paperback was published in 1980, it set a record.

80 weeks on the list, 40 of those at number one. Man, that's incredible. It really is. Now, of course, by that time, there was a huge spotlight on the book for a very dark reason. Right. And we're getting ready to talk about it in this episode. But I do think it's interesting, Gibbs, that many people,

today are coming out with diets that center around, if not the same, a similar philosophy of high proteins and low carbs. That's essentially how I lost the weight that I lost recently. I just think a lot of these diets is cycle, cycle, right? Well, everything comes back around, right? From clothing. Sure. 70s clothing. Yeah.

All of a sudden you see it kind of show back up again. Now, I wasn't on the Scarsdale diet, but it was a high protein, low carb type of thing. I also have put most of that weight back on since we've been in quarantine. Right. Damn grubhub and DoorDash. They just make it too easy. Yeah. They don't follow instructions when you say, I don't want.

I know I check the box that I want that, but I didn't really want it, but you still brought it to me anyway. What I really wanted was grilled chicken breast with broccoli. Yeah. That's what I really wanted. Yeah. I'm sorry I checked the wrong item, but you made it so darn appealing. I will say that Dr. Tarnauer would not have approved of most of the food that gets delivered to my front door over the last two or three months. I know.

You wouldn't approve what came to the door tonight. No, because we had pizza. Yeah. That was good. But man, you talk about Carby. Yeah. It's Carby. It was Carby.

Herman Tarnauer was born in Brooklyn, New York in 1910 to Jewish immigrants. He was smart, did well in school. After high school, he attended Syracuse University, where he obtained his medical doctorate in 1933. He set up a cardiology practice in Scarsdale, New York. Pretty much everyone called him high, right? His name was Herman, but most people called him high. Hi, hi, hi.

Yeah. That's what he went by. When World War II broke out, high served in the U.S. Army Medical Corps. as a major. And then after the war, he returned to his cardiology practice. And over the years, it really kind of took off. By 1960, he had built his own medical center in Scarsdale, bringing in five other doctors. Gibbs, he was making a lot of money. I bet he was. And he also had a taste for the finer things in life, just like you do. I do. Unfortunately, you're not a cardiologist No.

With your own practice. And I don't like to dust my wallet. And you don't like to spend money. I just go to the store and I look at it. And then I walk away. But what's interesting is that a lot of people said high was similar to that. He was frugal. He was even cheap even.

You ever know anyone like that Gibbs besides yourself? Frugal. Frugal. You like that word. Frugal, yeah. Cheap, you know. I mean. Yeah, that has kind of a really negative.

connotation. Fugel's a little more, like, thrifty. Yeah. Is, is one of those words that kind of, you're smart with your money, right? But I do know that, like, so when you ordered the pizza tonight, I knew where you were ordering him from. So I called up after you and added some things to it. I don't know if you noticed that. I didn't. So, but they have your credit card. It was already charged to my credit. Yeah. I was like, hey, I forgot to add this. And that's why that stuff showed up. I think with high, he was selective in, in his spending. Right. He bought nice things, houses, jewelry, items, cars. But then it was said he wore the same suits for like 20 years.

Really? I have a great polo over. I like to wear a lot. Yeah. I know. People comment on Patreon all the time. Yeah. But I do think, you know, I'm very similar, although not in the same income bracket or spending

range as high was. I like nice things. And I will spend more on certain things to. get quality, but I wear t-shirts that are as old as my kids are. Well, like the one you have on right now. Yeah, it's, I mean, it's got, it's got some age to it. I shouldn't be able to see your nipples, is what I'm saying. Well, it's thin, really thin.

I do that for you. I do that for you because I know you enjoy it. Well, whatever, yeah. But like I said, unlike me, I was making a lot of money. He belonged to the swanky country club. And socially, he hung out with. a bunch of other high-class people. He was a social climber.

Yeah. Who held fancy dinner parties and mingled with the social elites. Status was important. Well, I think it was to him. Then in 1966, he was introduced to a woman named Gene Harris and the two began a 14-year relationship. Gene Harris was born Gene Struven in 1923 into a well-to-do family in a source. in a suburb of Cleveland, Ohio.

She had two sisters and a brother. Gene's father, Albert was described as a driven man with a terrible temper. And I got the impression, Gibbs, that Gene, you know, growing up, was constantly striving but failing to win his approval. And I think there are a lot of people that grew up that way. There are tons of people that grew up that way.

You know, and really when you go back, And I think you and I have talked about this before. When you go back into the 30s, 40s, 50s, it does seem like dads were a little more distant, a little less lovey-dovey than maybe they are today or at least than what I am. Because, you know, you hear these stories about people whose dad never told them they love them, never hugged them in their entire childhood. Probably a little harder time, man, with the... Well, they grew up tough. Tough. With the wars and the, you know...

Growing up in the Depression. Yeah, but I do think there was something especially about dads, certain, you know, many dads of that era. They were tough, maybe a little less forgiving. And a lot of kids, all they really wanted was their father's approval, but that was very elusive. And I think it was for Gene. Yeah.

I mean, you know, when it's a learned behavior too, right? I mean, if your dad didn't give you the approvals, you always want it, and his dad didn't him, and so maybe that carries on to you until somebody just grabs a hold of you and, you know, they tell you they love you, man. And it changes from there. Okay. Did you watch a movie recently that warms your heart or hope floats? Hope floats.

But Gene was extremely bright. After finishing high school, she went on to the prestigious Smith College. and majored in economics. She graduated Magna Cum Laude in 1945. She fell in love with a man named Jim Harris. And the two eventually married in 1946. But Gene's father didn't approve of Jim. And there were reports Gibbs that he cried tears of sadness during the wedding.

Normally not a good sign. No. I mean, a lot of people cry at weddings, but they're tears of happiness. Yeah. This was not. This was crying out loud because you felt like your daughter was marrying the wrong person. It's never good. It's not a good start.

No. Jim and Gene settled down in Jim's hometown of Gross Point, Michigan. That's a great movie, by the way. Gross Point Blank. Yeah. Yeah. I lived very close to there when I lived in Detroit. That's a suburb of Detroit.

Right. Jim worked as a sales engineer. and Jean began teaching. She later quit teaching and stayed home when the couple's first son, David, was born in 1950. They had another son, Jimmy, in 1952. But to bring in a little extra money, Jean started a daycare slash kindergarten out of their home. And over about the next 12 years, this is how it went.

But the marriage between Jim and Gene began to fizzle, as some marriages do, they fought quite a bit. And then I think as time more on, they just drifted apart. If you're fighting all the time, you're going to drift apart. And I don't, yeah, at a certain point, I'm not even sure if they were fighting. I think they were just sharing a house. Coexisting. Coexisting. And they weren't really a quote, unquote, married couple at that point. Yeah. Whatever the case was, the love was gone. In 1964, Gene decided. that she needed something more out of her life. And she left Jim.

Their divorce was finalized the next year. And Gene got custody of David and Jimmy. Well, she decided to go through with it. Yeah. You know? Yeah. A lot of people won't go through with it. So she held to her guns and said, I want a better life.

There was a lot of talk about people that knew Gene that once she made a decision, that was it. Yeah. She would move forward with it. She moved to Philadelphia and accepted a position at a girls' academy in one of Philly's affluent suburbs. Then she met high at a dinner party thrown by one of her friends in New York City. Like I said, that was 1966. He was 12, 13 years older than Gene, had a thriving practice by this point.

And I think he had an air about him that Gene found very intrigued. Yeah. You know, here's this established doctor, socialite country club type guy. He was articulate. I'm sure his vocabulary was one notch probably below yours, but still very smart. Yeah, I'm sure he commanded the room when he walked in. I think he did. Yeah. And I think she found him very interesting. And at the same time, a high was smitten with Jean. After the pretext, after the prehist, he. party, he began sending her letters and cards and, you know, really the relationship kind of grew from there. She would meet him in New York for dinner. And then as the relationship progressed, I began sending Jean Roses and love letters. You know how it goes, Gibbs. This is what you do,

when you're, when you're courting someone. Yeah. Now today it's send them text messages. Emogies. Emogies. Here's your emoji rose. I'm not going to spring for the real rose. I'll just send you an emoji rose hope you like that jean brought her kids with her to new york to see hi at his house by 1967 high was so enamored with jean that he bought her a ring and proposed jean accepted the proposal but dragged her feet regarding the wedding she cited issues with taking her kids out of school i don't know if that was the real reason i don't know if she you know didn't want to give up independence. But because she drug her feet a little bit, High changed his mind. Later that year, over the phone, he told Gene that he couldn't go through with it. He had second thoughts about marriage

and he called it off. Wow. I think one of the big reasons is that he just couldn't see himself settling down with one woman. He liked his lifestyle. He did like his lifestyle and he was kind of a playboy. I don't think he was Hugh Hefner. He didn't have model looks. I mean, when you see pictures of this guy, he's not jumping off the page at you as a Brad Pitt, Bradley Cooper. Mike Ferguson kind of type of guy. Yeah, sure. Yeah. I got you. He's not, he's not going to jump off the silver screen. But he could speak well. I mean, he was intelligent. Yeah. And let's not forget, he had money. That always helps a little bit too.

It helps a little bit. He also had this status in the community. I mean, all of that kind of goes into attracting some women. Some women are attracted to that. Especially in New York at that time. It was important to have some status. Are you telling me that there's a point in time or a place in this United States of ours where it has not been important to have status?

I'm just checking. Yeah, right here right now. You said at that time and that place, it was important. Yeah. Now, you know, to be fair, there's some women that don't care at all about that. But there are some women that gravitate towards powerful men, wealthy men. That's always been the case. Yeah, I'm gravitate towards wealthy.

Powerful men, yeah. I know you did. Said woman. Oh, you did. I'm sorry. I didn't hear that part. Actually, at this time, I don't know. Whatever, man.

I don't care. You know, no, just quarantine. Yeah. I think the bottom line is, and it's important to the story, High Tarnauer was a ladies man. He was known as a ladies man. But the calling off of the wedding didn't end the relationship between High and Gene. I mentioned it.

It went on for 14 years in total. He lavished Jean with gifts, took her on trips, over the world. Hi was also acting as Gene's personal doctor of sorts, prescribing her a variety of medications. He prescribed her pain pills for a bad bag. He prescribed a number of medications for genes depression, including one called deoxone, which was basically methamphetamine or speed. Good stuff back in the day. Yeah. But it's important to this story. You know, the, the the fact that he was prescribing her drugs. And I would say especially this dexin comes back in a big way.

I had a number of other lovers over the 14 years that he and Gene were together. I don't know if anybody knows how many. But when you're described as a playboy and a ladies man, it does not denote the fact that you're monogamous. It just doesn't. He's probably torn between some lovers there. Probably. I actually could have titled this episode, torn between two lovers. Yeah.

But then you had to get all those emails again. And yeah, we don't need that. But it would be one woman in particular that would set things on a fatal course. Lynn Traforis, married and a mother of two, had worked at High Scarsdale Clinic for a number of years. At some point, during their working relationship, it switched. They became lovers. They became, you know, more than than obviously colleagues or work associates, however you want to say it. And I think while Gene was probably suspicious or even knew about many of Hyes' affairs over the years,

it was the one with Lynn Traforis that really stung her. You know, Lynn was younger than Jean. And, you know, as time went on, there were a number of events. incidents where Gene discovered that Lynn and High had been together, clothing, her clothing left at High's house, gifts that she had given to High with inscriptions on them. You know, it's kind of one of those things where you know, but you don't know. Right. Until you're actually confronted with evidence. And then there's no way to not know. Right. If that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. It's laying there right in front of you. And the relationship. And the relationship.

relationship between Gene Harris and Lynn Traforis, it really got nasty. The two women began harassing each other, depending on who you believe, right? There were reports of phone calls going both ways. Right. Letters. Letters, maybe even some sabotage in different scenarios. People have said that Gene said about as many nasty things about Lynn as you can say, called her. an ignorant slut and all kinds of other different slurs. Wow, is that where was her name Jane at one point? Well, that's maybe where they got it from on Saturday Night Live. As we're all adapting to this changing world, we're buying more stuff online than ever before. If you're an e-commerce seller, are you ready to meet the demands of our new delivery culture? Well, be ready with ShipStation. When you're selling online, getting a lot of orders out fast can be tough. That's why you need shipstation.com. It's the fastest, easiest and most affordable way to manage and ship your orders. In just a few clicks, you'll be

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when you use our offer code T-Cat. Make sure your business is ready to meet the demands of delivery culture. Get started at shipstation.com today. Click on the microphone at the top of the homepage and type in TCAT.com. Then enter offer code T-CATT. Shipstation.com. Make ship happen. So over the years, Jean had a number of jobs. Many is headmistress at various prestigious girls schools. But it was 177 when she landed the coveted role as headmistress of the Madeira School in Washington, D.C. This was big time. It was huge. Now she's mingling with some of the social elite in Washington.

But Gene Harris had some troubles at the Madeira school. And she turned to her medications prescribed by Tarnauer to help her cope. the level of disoxin that she was taking steadily climbed. Over the next few years, she was viewed as a failure at the school. This was tough for her. She had been a winner or had succeeded everywhere she'd ever been. Right. Any job or whatever she'd tried to do, she'd been pretty successful.

But she ran into a host of problems at this Madeira school. many people were upset with her over an incident in which she expelled some students for using pot. Now, let's face it, Gibbs. These parents are paying tens and tens of thousands of dollars to send their girls to this private school. These are some of the elite. They weren't happy. Yeah. Number one, to have them expelled.

And I think some of the kids weren't happy because it's the 70s. Right. They thought everybody smoked. pot, but yet you expelled these people. Well, why not all these other people? They're smoking pot too. So it was like she was getting it from both sides. Her girls, I'll use that word, who she had mentored, she thought a lot of. I think they kind of turned on her. The parents turned on her. And then by 1979, the board turned on her. And they put forth a recommendation for her dismissal. She was devastated. Well, you know what? When you

you have that type of academy and you're kicking out basically the tuition, it's hard to run that academy. You can't be expelling people that are paying your overhead, your salaries, your profit. So I'm sure that they wanted to see. They probably thought there's a better way to do it than how she was doing it. Yeah. And I think that's, you know, one of the things about Gene was that she was very no nonsense. Yeah. She was kind of strict. and hard line. I think to your point, do you need to expel students for using pot when it was said that a lot of the people at the school were using pot? Right. You could make the argument that, yeah, it's against the rules. You should be expelled. In a normal situation, you could probably

get away with that. Well, absolutely. What she did was the right thing to do. Yeah. But in the wrong environment to do it. Right. Yeah. She was on taking some of the elite kids of probably their parents worked on K Street, you can't do that. Very powerful, very rich, and could undoubtedly put a ton of pressure on the school board or whatever board of this Madeira school to say, hey, this isn't who we want running the school. Exactly. And it wouldn't have even probably been just the parents of the kids that got expelled.

A lot of other parents would have looked at it and said, hey, I don't want my kid expelled if they get caught for, you know, a small amount of pot or whatever. Exactly. Yeah. But like I said, it was devastating. This was a woman who took a lot of pride in her work with children and kids always had. She'd been working with kids for a very long time. This was a devastating blow.

And by this time, the Scarsdale Diet book had come out. High had become somewhat of a celebrity. Gene Harris had a hand in helping to write some of the books. book. It was co-authored by Hi and this other gentleman, I forget his name, but it's definitely recognized and I think she's even named in the beginning of the book, as you know, acknowledged that she had a hand in it. That's how it always is when you're the co-author. If your name's not first, you're last. You know what I call that? I call it a Ricky Bobby reference is what I call. The shaken bake theory. If you're not first, you're last. That's right.

Well, it could also be that the other guy was not killed in a famous case, and that's why we don't know his name. Yeah, I can name another book and ask you if you know who the co-author. No, you're absolutely right. It was Tarnauer's book. It was his diet. Yeah. The co-author was somebody brought in by the publisher probably to help him write the book. I mean, think about all those books I've written over the years.

Yeah. Have you heard my name out there? No. No. Will we ever? No. No. Because I signed as a ghost writer, so.

But Gene's relationship with Tarnauer continued to sour. She was invited up to his New York house less and less as the years went by. And I think you could make a couple of different suppositions for why that was, guy's a millionaire. He's a celebrity now. Probably has the chance to pick from a much larger pool of women to date. The other factor is, I think his relationship with Lynn, was strengthening at the same time that his relationship with Gene was waning.

Oh, yeah. And not to make age an issue, but Gene did because she was getting older. Lynn was younger. And I think it's a part of this case where she felt like she was being cast aside, like she was being discarded for a younger model. I think she's justified in saying that. I think there's a bunch of women throughout history who have felt that way. Yeah.

Right. Man divorces a woman when they get to be 40, 50 years old and then he remarries a 20 year old. What woman doesn't feel like she's been discarded because of the fact that, you know, she's matured. And her husband went after a younger woman. It's not going to sit well. it's also what brought a lot of women to the side of Gene Harris in this case. Oh, yeah. We'll probably talk about it a little bit later because, okay, how many women have experienced that?

Now they see the facts of what is going to transpire, what we're about ready to talk about. Yeah. And a lot of women jump to her defense saying, wow, can't believe this guy did this to her. You know, we'll get into it. Sure. But even so, Gene and High, they still went on vacations together. But High was seen more and more frequently in the company of Lynn Traforis. And the two women were still at each other.

You know, at some point, Jean Harris began receiving anonymous phone calls that she felt were from Lynn. She went on the offensive. She went on like a month-long campaign Gibbs of calling and harassing Lynn Traforis nightly. This was like a battle between these two women. What was it going to prove? What was it going to do? Like eventually one would give in to the other? I don't know. They were fighting for the attention of Hi. And there were some people that said that's exactly what High wanted. He wanted these women to fight for his affection. He liked that. When Lynn complained to High, he sided with her. And,

he threatened to cut Gene off completely. In early 1980, Gene received a letter in the mail, along with what appeared to be a copy of High's will, with her name crossed out and replaced with the name of Lynn Traforis. Gene Harris was spiraling downward. Her relationship with High was threatened and, you know, it was kind of in tatters. Her job as the headmistress of the Madeira school was in serious jeopardy, and she had run out of her dexon and was having trouble getting high to refill it. This is big trouble. It's a huge, huge issue for her. This is not a drug that someone can just stop cold turkey without experiencing some major side effects.

One of the things that's very important is, you know, her dose started off pretty small. But as the years went on, it increased until, you know, 1979, 1980. She was taking a pretty high dose of this drug. Yeah. Along with some other drugs that many people have said you should not have mixed with this. With this. And high being a doctor should have known. But now all of a sudden, she can't get this drug.

Days went by. She couldn't get it. she began acting strangely. People at the Madeira school noticed it. All of this Gibbs led up to the events that occurred on Monday, March 10th, 1980. Gene Harris was extremely depressed. Let's not forget the reason why she's taking this drug and some other drugs is to combat her depression.

Yeah. Now she's been off of it for a number of days. She's not going to be her normal self. She's trying to cope with her mounting issues while at the same time trying to deal with, you know, being without this medication for probably almost a week. In the days leading up to Monday, March 10, Gene Harris had written an 11-page rambling letter to high detailing her issues with the way that he had treated her over the years. And she put it in the mail to go out to him.

She also sat down and wrote out. her will. And then that Monday morning, she was finally able to get high on the phone. After many days of trying to get a hold of him, the conversation didn't go well. Gene told high about the letter, and she asked him not to read it when it showed up. She said she wanted to come up to talk to him, but he basically brushed her off. So Gene grabbed a 32 caliber pistol that she had purchased about a year and a half earlier. She'd never fired it. I don't even know if she had ever even taken it out of the box.

She just wanted to have it. Yep. She bought it a year and a half ago and stuck it probably in a closet. But now she put it in her purse. And she set out on the five-hour drive from the Madeira school to High's place in New York. Gene Harris was going to talk with High face-to-face one more time. She was determined. So she made this five-hour drive when she got to his house that night.

It was a little after 10.30 p.m. Now, the rest of the story comes mainly from Gene's account of what happened that night. High was asleep in his bed. But Gene was able to get into the house. She made her way up to his bedroom. I think like most people would be, he was startled to wake up and find Jean there. He told her she was crazy. in that, you know, he didn't feel like talking.

Number one, you just woke me up out of a sleep. And number two, I told you on the phone this morning, not that interested in talking. That'd be a little alarmed, right? I mean, if you said all that, yet somebody still showed up to your home and they're in your bedroom now and you know that they had to drive so many hours to do this.

Right. Yeah, I'd be a little taken back. No, you would. But then look at it. it from Gene's perspective. The relationship has been going south. All right, I finally get you on the phone. You brush me off. I drive all the way to your house to talk to you. You're trying to brush me off. Yeah. I want to be heard. I have things to say. Well, and that's his fault too, right? I agree with the fact that he probably should have said, go ahead, let me hear it. Tell me what you want to tell me. Let's discuss it.

and but here's the thing. That was not Herman Tarnauer as I saw in the research. Basically, everybody said that he was kind of a take it or leave it type guy, especially when it came to women. Yeah. It was kind of a my way or the highway type attitude. But they also had a lot of history together. 14 years were.

Yeah. This wasn't a woman that he met at the supermarket last week. Exactly. I mean, they had history. that you would just think that you would, to end it, you'd have to have those type of conversations and allow that other person to say what they need to say and then be done.

Yeah, but here's the thing. I'm not even sure he wanted to end it. I think what he wanted was the best of all possible worlds, which is to have multiple women on a string, right, kind of, and to be able to, play them against each other, to be able to kind of have them fight for his affection, and be able to see them whenever it suited him.

Yeah, well. I think that's what he was about, not to cast dispersions on a guy that is about ready to be killed. Yeah, but I mean, that's not how relationships work, you know, it just, it doesn't work that way. So her biggest problem probably was the fact that she always wanted to be the number one in his life. Sounds like maybe she was okay with the others, but she needed to be the most important one. Yeah, I think that's fair to say. Like I said, there are conflicting reports, but they, I believe she knew about some of the other relationships. She obviously knew about Lentra Forrest. There's no doubt about that. I just think it was her realizing that she was losing her grip on at least some portion. right of being in high's life yeah that it was almost like it was just crumbling completely she wanted

to talk about that and like you said it doesn't sound like he handled it as well as he could have with a person that he had shared 14 years with yeah i think he should have set some time aside to give her that moment well if he had things might have gone a little differently that's true at some point, Gene made her way into the bathroom. And this was when she discovered a nighty and some other items belonging to Len Traforis. Never, never good when you see the other woman's lingerie. No, she saw this. She went back into the bedroom to confront high. By this time, according to Gene, he was up out of the bed. And when the argument began, he smacked her across the mouth. once, at least once, maybe multiple times.

Okay. He called her crazy again. He called her crazy a number of times on this night. But he also told her to leave. But Gene wasn't going to leave. This is when she opened up her purse, pulled out her gun, and she put it to her temple. She was going to shoot herself in front of high. Because this is the story that Gene will stick to, right?

She came there to, yes, talk to Hyde. but ultimately she was there to take her own life. But she wanted to talk to him first and then do it. And then do it. But he came at her, tried to get the gun. And in that struggle, the gun went off. And a bullet ripped through kind of the fleshy part of his hand between the thumb and the forefinger.

Yeah. That place hurts, man. That couldn't have felt good at all. He ran to the bathroom to tend to his wound, you know. maybe put some hydrogen peroxide on it. I don't know what you do. Wrap it up somehow. Now, Gene contended that when he came back into the bedroom,

she had the gun and she raised it to her temple again. Another fight for the gun ensued. He grabbed it, wrestled it away from her, and he called for his housekeepers to come help. Then they had another fight for the gun. They were wrestling for it. I think they, you know,

ended up on the ground. maybe at one point. But Gene has stated that she felt the gun pressed into her stomach. And she thought, okay, this was my chance. So she put her finger on the trigger and squeezed it. But it turns out the gun was not pointed at her. It was pointed at high and he was shot. So if you believe her, she thought, okay, I'm going to shoot myself because he has the gun pointed at me. And this is this is my opportunity. And I'm taking my chance. But once she figured out she wasn't shot and he was shot instead, Gene Harris left the house.

She got into her car to drive to a pay phone to call for help. And there were some reports that High's phone was not working. And that's why she had to, you know, try to find a pay phone. Meanwhile, his housekeepers raced to the second floor to his bedroom. And they found him laying in. between two twin beds bleeding from his gunshot wounds. Now, as Jean was nearing the pay phone, she saw a police car with its lights on. So she floored it back to Hyes house.

So she gets back. The police are there. When she got out of her car in the driveway, she told the police that Hye had been shot and he needed some help. But Hyes' housekeepers were also there to greet police. Right. And they remember her being there, didn't they? they said, hey, this is the person that actually shot him. So police arrested Gene Harris and booked

her for aggravated assault. But that charge was very quickly changed after police found out that Herman Tarnauer had died at the hospital. And I think he died very quickly within an hour probably of the shooting. I don't know how long it was from the time that they got into the hospital. But regardless, Gene Harris was going to go on trial for murder. So she got herself a good defense attorney and he started talking to the papers, really trying to paint Jean in the papers as a classic victim. He said she was a one man woman with an obsession for a man who couldn't handle commitment. He said this drove Gene Harris not to rage and murder, but to self-hate and the decision to take her own life. Gene's trial began later that year and

It lasted about 14 weeks. Pretty long trial period. Yeah. Yeah. It wasn't a short trial. And sensationalized, right? Papers across the country were covering this case. It was huge news.

The prosecution painted her as a woman scorned. Hell bent on taking the life of the man that she felt had betrayed her. And you have the flip side, right? The defense painted. gene in a much different life, saying, quote, feelings of aging, depression about work, the end of her life as an active mother, and physical fatigue led to a state of depression and her wanting to take her own life. She wanted to say goodbye to the human being who meant more to her than anyone else. Yeah, I think they set it up really good for her defense. So, I mean,

it's obvious, right, what each side is trying to do. The process. The process. prosecution is saying Gene Harris was mad. Yeah. That she was being cut out of this man's life. She went to his home and she killed him. The defense is saying, no, she was depressed. Yeah. She went to his house to take her own life and to say goodbye.

But she wanted to say goodbye first. And that really is the essence boiled down of each side's case. Yeah. Did she go there to say goodbye and take her own life? Or did she go there to take his life? Which way did it go? Yeah, because I don't think there was any doubt that Gene Harris shot Herman Tarnow. That wasn't in question.

Right. The question that the jury had to wrestle with was, was it deliberate or was it an accident? Yeah, because it was an accident because she thought it was pointed at her because that's who she wanted to kill. She wanted to kill herself. If you believe her. If you believe her. And that's what the jury's going to have to figure out. The prosecution brought forth a number of witnesses.

They had the person who had sold Gene Harris the gun. The medical examiner testified that Dr. Tarnauer had been shot four times. Well, there's the kicker. Yeah, that was big. And really, for me, it's huge. Yeah, you're pulling that trigger four times. You know if you've been hit the first time. Because we only talked about two shots.

right one that went through kind of the webbing of his hand right and then the one where she felt as though the gun was pressed up against her i think when the jury hears four shots it's tougher to get to accident yeah wouldn't you agree yeah i mean i think you can understand the struggle and how it goes through the webbing of his hand i think you can even say i get it you struggled you thought it was in your gut. You pulled the trigger, but it's actually in his. After that, but then the trigger was pulled two more times. Yeah, I don't know how that happens. Right. Yeah, I do think it was big in this case. But the medical examiner also said that he believed high was shot while he was lying in the bed, which definitely contradicted Gene's story.

And something that he used to bolster his theory was that he said, he could line up one shot that went through Hye's hand and into his body. As a defense of putting it in my hand up to block the don't shoot me. But the trajectory of it, he said, pointed to the fact that he was laying down with maybe put his hand up, went through his hand into his body. Well, maybe she came out of that bathroom, seen that lingerie, didn't like it, took the gun out and pop up. According to the medical examiner, he said that.

evidence was inconsistent with Harris's version of events that the gun went off during a struggle. The prosecution introduced the 11-page letter written by Harris, which became known as the Scarsdale letter. The defense had their own witnesses who contradicted the theories of the medical examiner. This guy said, no, no, you got it all wrong. He wasn't lying down. It happened this way. you know, there were parts of this trial, I think, that were very technical. You know, a lot of bullet trajectory probably and forensic type ballistics and things like that. I think when you have those type of presentations during the trial, the one that can simplify it and make it as believable as possible to that jury is what they're going to walk away with every time, even if it's not right. Well, because sometimes when you get too technical,

juries don't understand it. Yeah, you turned them off on it. And they're thinking, that other one makes sense. It was so easy to believe. Right. Even though this one's correct, it's just so,

it's so technical, nobody can figure it out. Exactly. Yeah. The defense explained to the jury that Gene Harris had no intention of killing Dr. Tarnauer that night. It was all just a tragic accident.

But Gibbs, by far, the biggest part of the trial, was when Gene Harris took the stand and told her versions of events that night. She laid out the story of that night pretty much as we've told it. The defense had her talk about her background, her life with high, her troubles at work and her ongoing depression. You can see where they're going, right?

They're laying the groundwork for this accident. as a result of her wanting to take her own life. Right. She was depressed. She had these troubles at work. Her life with High was, you know, falling apart. But her defense attorney read a poem that Gene had written. It was pattern after twas the night before Christmas.

And the poem was very strange. It kind of talked about High's infidelities. I'm not going to read the whole thing because I found it kind of weird. Bizarre. Yeah. It's kind of bizarre. But it's thought that the defense believed that this poem would show the jury, hey, Gene wasn't angry about Hyes other women. She was making fun of it.

But apparently it had the opposite effect. The jury did not see it that way at all. Right. But really, it was on cross that I think Gene did the most damage to herself. The prosecution asked her if she was mad when she found the items belonging to Lynn Trafor. And Gene said, no, she wasn't mad. But then later, she had to concede the fact that she had thrown a heavy box of Lynn's electric curlers so hard that it broke a window.

Kind of hard to say you're not mad about, you know, finding the other woman's things at High's house when you're throwing her stuff around. And that's the other thing. When police got in, it was trashed. She had thrown clothing and, you know, these hair curlers. Anything that she found of Lens, it was like she had just thrown it. She destroyed it. She also said that she was just a little upset when Hye hit her in the face that night.

Not mad. Not mad enough to kill him. And again, I think, you know, this is something that the jury probably wrestled with. Right. You're saying that you weren't mad about Lynn stuff. yet you threw her things all over the room, you smashed them, and you're going to sit there and tell us that you weren't mad at high for smacking you in the mouth and the face? I don't know many women who would not be upset after a man hit them in the face in the mouth.

Yeah, they definitely should be upset. So I just don't think that the jury thought that her words rang true. The prosecutor read the entire 11-page Scarsdale letter to the jury. And when you look at the reporting about the trial, you know, most of the newspapers reported that Jean came off as stiff. She came off as snarky. Snarky's not good. No, it's not good, especially in the eyes of the jury.

In one exchange with the prosecutor, so he asked her, Mrs. Harris, would you tell us about certain incidents that took place at Dr. Tarnauer's home and particularly in the bedroom. Gene replied, could you be more specific? So the prosecutor asked, did you have conversations with Dr. Tarnauer? To which Gene replied, yes. Whenever we talked, we had conversation. Okay. I mean, that's smart assy as you can get. Sure. Yeah. And it's kind of like you're trying to get over on the prosecutor, right? You're smarter than he is. So you're playing games. You're right. And I think that's how the jury saw it as this is a woman that thought she was better than everybody else. She thought she was smarter than everybody else. And she carried herself that way.

And you know that people don't like that. You tell me people don't like it when they think that you think that you're better than they are. Yeah, they don't like that. I would have to agree with you 100%. Yeah. Glad we're on the same table on that one. We're also on the same page. I don't know why in the hell we'd be on the same table. Because that's...

Why are we on a table at all? Hey, I say table. You say page. Not that I think I'm better than you. But why are you pointing at me that you are? In the defense's summation, he said, The Tarnauer-Harris romance was a story of a love. Love gone wrong.

it's a story of a woman who had more love to give than the man could accept. He told the jury, do not compromise. This was a tragic accident. Don't compromise. Search for the truth. We can take it. I don't know if it's good or bad, but, you know, it's what a defense attorney has to do. He's obviously stressing the tragic accident part.

Right. because that was essentially the defense's whole case, right? Yeah. Didn't mean to kill him. Struggle for the gun. The gun went off four times, mind you, but it went off. And he was shot and killed. It's the four times that does it for me.

Yeah. And I think it was big for the jury, I'm sure. So the 12 member jury of eight women and four men, they deliberated for eight days. That's a long deliberation. It is. And it wasn't all spent back in the jury room. They spent many hours in the courtroom, having pieces of testimony read back to them. I mean, they really went over this case.

They spent a lot of time. But that makes sense because the trial did last, what, 14 weeks? Yes. So that's a long trial. So I can see where they needed to take their time and maybe hear some of the early. testimony that happened in week one. Yeah. I need to rehear that.

That it was over three months ago. Yeah. But after eight days, they found Gene Harris guilty of second degree murder. At her sentencing, she made a speech. And I won't read the whole thing. But in it, she claimed how much she loved high. And she badmouthed the press for how they portrayed her. She ended her speech with saying,

I'm not guilty, your honor. But the judge sentenced her to 15 years to life. That's a big range. Yeah. 15 years to life. So she's got to serve at least 15 before she can be eligible for parole? Yeah, I'm thinking that's how it goes. Now, she's not going to serve 15, but because of a special circumstance that we'll talk about

in a minute. But when juries were asked later after the trial, they said, it was Gene's own testimony that sealed her fate. I kind of mentioned some of it. They didn't like her demeanor on the stand, right? They talked about this woman dressed in expensive clothes who came across as an arrogant snob. And they thought, you know, she was just jealous of the woman who had stolen high away from her. That's what they thought. Yeah. Took her place. But I think a lot of it had to do with the way she acted. You know, she was a very prim and proper woman. Yeah. But she also did come across as a little snooty, a little arrogant, a little snobbish. Well, we all know in today's world, even back then, right,

how you present yourself in front of that jury can make or break your case. Well, especially if you're taking the stand. Yeah. I mean, and I think that's why in today they have these consultants that come in and say, have your client wear this. Make sure he or she does this when you're sitting at the table. Don't cross your arms. Don't do this. This is how you're supposed to look. And they really try to force you to abide by that.

The jury said they tried to recreate her account of the shooting that night. The gun going off as she and High struggled for it. They just didn't believe it. Yeah. And again, maybe a lot of it had to do with the number of shots that were fired. That's where I have a problem. I mean, it's just really, I mean, I think you could tell the story the way that it initially happened. But once you get to that third shot, how do you justify that? Well, it doesn't square up with her story very well. But no doubt. Gene Harris definitely didn't do herself any good with the way that she came across to the jury. She would later say that her attorneys never advised her against. taking the stand. She just figured that that's what she should do. Get up there and tell her side of the story. Gibbs, I know, is a top-notch defense attorney. That is something that you would have strongly

advised against. I would have. Don't go up there. Do not take the stand. Now, her defense attorney denied that claim. And he said after the trial that it was Harris's unwillingness to let him tell the truth about Herman Tarnauer and the Madeira school that did her in. So apparently, she didn't want to tarnish the reputation of high. Yeah. Or and Madeira school. Yeah. So the man that she loved and the school that she loved, even though she was having a lot of

problems with both, she didn't want her defense attorney to say anything that would cast either of them in a back. light. And he's trying to save her from going to jail for the rest of her life. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I think what he wanted to put on, at least when it came to high, I don't know as much about what he was going to say about the Madeira school. But when it came to high, I think he was really going to try to delve into his womanizing, maybe some abuse. Yeah. Allegations and infidelities and things like that, she just wouldn't let him do that. So without the jury hearing any of these things that maybe they could have taken into account, they were left really with Gene's story versus

some of the evidence and some of the testimony by the medical examiner, the number of shots and all of that. And it just came down to the fact that they didn't believe her story, pure and simple. Now, would some of these other things have swayed them? I don't know. I don't know. But it would have been certainly more ammunition for the defense. Yeah. They could have tried to use it in a way that could have benefited her.

Now, her attorney did admit that it was probably a mistake to put her on the stand. I don't think that was really in doubt after the testimony occurred. Sure. Now, maybe he thought ahead of time, she's smart, she's going to do well on the stand, not realizing that she's not going to come across well at all. She's coming across as a headmistress at a school with only her viewpoint and you're going to have to hear it and this is how it is. That's not good. Gene Harris did her time in the Bedford Hills Women's Prison in New York City. when she first got there, she went on a hunger strike stating that that was her way of ending her life.

Didn't work. And she ultimately gave it up. She suffered a number of heart attacks while in prison. And she was not a model prisoner. She thought some of the rules were unjust, unfair. And she wrote a number of books and articles from prison calling for prison reform. She detailed. out what it was like behind bars, the constant humiliation and the mind-numbing routines. In one book, she said that she had to wait to be let through 18 different locked doors on her way to get something to eat and the same 18 locked doors to get back to herself. A lot of locked doors, man. Yeah. The strip searches. I mean, she really kind of railed against the treatment.

that she received in prison, but she did eventually settle in. And she became like a mother to some of the younger female inmates. Eventually, she became an honor inmate. She taught life skills to fellow inmates, mothering skills to some of the pregnant inmates. And she worked at the prison's children's center. Over the years, Harris had appealed to governor Mario Cuomo for Clemens. but the appeals were all rejected. But then in 1993, Cuomo changed his mind, citing Harris's deteriorating health and the fact that she needed a quadruple bypass. He granted her clemency and

she was parole. And she spent much of the rest of her life doing charity work. Gene Harris died in an assisted living facility in December of 2012 at the age of 89. But, again, but, Gibbs, this was such a huge case when it hit the media. You had a celebrity diet book author killed by the headmistress of a posh girl school. They both ran in some hoity tooty social circles. It was scandalous. It also happened in New York. The one thing I haven't talked too much about, I kind of mentioned it a little bit earlier was how many people were divided about Gene Harris. There were many women during that time that felt she was not guilty. You know, I read a lot of op-ed pieces and different newspapers where women sided with Gene.

Yeah. Claiming that, you know, she was the victim of a ruthless man. And I do think there is some truth to that. And maybe that's part of what the defense team wanted to try to get out at trial, but Jean wouldn't let them. I don't think Herman Tarnauer was a saint by any means. No, I think she definitely felt toss aside. Well, not only that, but there were some reports that he was abusive.

Now, we know he hit her in the mouth that night. Sure. So was he physically abusive? Maybe. He definitely was that night. I don't know if he was, you know, before that. I think it was more like mental, emotional abuse. I read a lot of stuff about that.

The way that he, you know, treated these women, kind of almost as if the, they were, I don't even know. Like second class citizens? Yeah. I want to say, I don't want to say property, but therefore when he needed them. Yeah. That's the best way I can describe it. I think the mental and the emotional abuse is as bad, if not worse, than the physical abuse. Because you could always heal the physical wounds.

But those mental and emotional wounds, I think they stay with you for a long, long time. It's hard to get rid of those. And we've actually heard from some listeners who have echoed those sentiments. Now, maybe not all women who have experienced that will say, that's true, but I mean, I think by qualifying it, you're saying as bad if not worse. Right. I do wonder how this case would be viewed if it happened today in today's society. We know much more about the different types of abuse other than just physical abuse.

Right. Then I think was known back in 1980. Yeah. I think, and I think the defense would certainly tell her. not to take the stand, or if she did take the stand, they would have her tell the story a little bit different. And I think they would press to be allowed to present to the jury examples of tarn hours, you know, different types of abuse if they were there. Sure. Mental, physical, emotional, you know, just kind of a history there that would allow the jury to see. Right. What Gene had

gone through doesn't mean that they'll excuse her from the murder charge, but it couldn't hurt. I also think today the question of her mental state would be a much more prominent part of the trial, especially given the fact that it was high that was prescribing her what many called a pretty bad combination of drugs. Sure. And then would not refill her drugs. drugs, right? She was off of them for like a week leading up to the murder. That part of her mental state would definitely come into trial. Yeah. And that's part of his responsibility as a doctor, right? He decided to prescribe her that. And then he decided not to refill her prescriptions, knowing that the outcome would it could do to her mental state, kind of falls on him,

don't you think? Boy, I think the defense would have made a big deal out of it for sure. I would have pushed on that. But I think the question gives that many people still have is, was this a terrible accident, as Jean has claimed, or did she fly into a murderous rage and shoot high four times killing him? Again, we'll go back to, you know, I think it's the four shots that really stick with me. Yeah, it's a tough sell, you know. I think you could you could say, yeah, I get. She went up there.

She was distraught. She was pissed. She wanted to get the final word out. And then, yeah, maybe she was going to go ahead and take her life. But once it didn't go the way she wanted, and that was not her gut that she fired that bold into, I think at that point she made the decision, I'm going to finish this two more times, boom, boom, done. I don't know how else you could say you pulled the trigger two more times because you thought

it was still pointing at your gut when you knew it wasn't. Yeah. You have to be able to explain why the man was shot. shot four times. Yeah. You have to. Yeah, you can get away maybe with two. After the second time, you could have stopped, called for help.

And I think there are very few accidental shootings where someone shot four times. I just don't, I just don't think that happens very often. No. But that's it. That's the case of Gene Harris and the murder of Herman Tarnauer. We've got some voicemails Gibbs. You want to check those out? Yeah.

Guys, this is Candy. with the cake, calling from Silver Lake, Alberta, in Canada. Oh, I don't know why I'm so nervous leaving this. I just wanted to be going to know that. I recently ran into your podcast right before this whole COVID thing started. So I've been ignoring my children, wearing my AirPods in my ear, binging on you guys this entire time for the past couple months,

especially more after I fired myself as the homeschool teacher. So you guys are basically with me all day. I love what you guys do. And yeah, keep up the good job and keep your own time taking, guys. Peace. She just thought a little peace. They can tell she's from Canada. She fired herself as the homeschool teacher.

You're just not, Cammy, we just don't think you're cutting it anymore. We're going to have to let you go. So that's what she told herself? Yeah. You're just not cutting it anymore and we have to fire you. Yeah. It would be even worse if her kids did it. Like her kids pulled her in, Mom, we need to talk to you. Yeah. We just don't think you're right for us.

But it's not you, it's me. Yeah. But they give her the, it's not you, it's me. Exactly. Hi, I'm Mike and Gibby. This is Aaron from the Sacramento area here in California, the 9-16. Relatively new fan, but I'm super big fan of the show. That and Unsolved and also Cuminology, really awesome podcast that you guys do. I had a suggestion for a case, Emma Lidot. She was known as a trunk murderer, and that took place in Stock in California in early 1906, I think it was 1906 or so. And she was known as a trunk murderer.

It's a really fascinating story. Not too much insight is given when I Googled it, but it's a pretty impressive case. I thought it might be something you guys could cover. Anyways, keep what you're doing. I'm about halfway through the episodes on unsolved and then also about halfway also on solved. So keep what you guys do and keep your on time ticking. Thank you.

Bye-bye. Well, thank you, 911, 6 from the 937. Boom. Represent. Gibbs, that's the case I don't think I've ever heard of. Yeah. Now, it goes back pretty far, 1906, but, you know, we sometimes can get access to some newspapers that are that old.

What are kind of trunk? Talk about the old trunk trunks? like the big suitcase trunk thing? Yeah, well, at first I thought he was talking about car trunk, but then when he said 1906, I was thinking probably not. Yeah, interesting. So I'm thinking like steamer trunk type thing. Steamer trunks?

Yeah, why are you laughing? I don't know, made me laugh. You never heard of a steamer trunk? No, I have never heard of a steamer truck. Like a big thing that you would take on a ship, like on a steamer? Yeah, put all your stuff in. Yeah. I think that's why they called them that.

Okay. I don't know. The Titanic trunks. If you had said it, I would say you're making that up. I know. That's what you should say to me. It sounds like you're making it up, but you're probably not. Hi, Mike and Gibby.

This is Rebecca calling from New York, a longtime listener and more recent Patreon supporter. Woohoo. Anyway, I just opened a gift from my kids, an aura frame, which came on your recommendation, and I hope they used your discount code. Oh, my God, I love it. It's so amazing. And it came with your endorsement, so I knew it would be good. But it's great.

So thank you for turning me on to it. And they already loaded it with, uploaded it with over 100 photos. So I'm really enjoying it on the slideshow. And it's so easy to set up. Okay. Thanks again. I look forward to hearing you next episode. Bye.

Maybe they loaded art pictures on there too. Maybe. Maybe my kids put some weird pictures on there. Did they? Yeah. No, they'll go through a drive-thru and like take a picture of the person in the drive-thru. And the next thing, it'll show up on the frame.

I'm like, why are you guys doing stuff like that? We don't want that. Or they put like a cartoon character from some Disney movie on there. And so you're seeing all these pictures of your family and then all of a sudden it's like the kid from up or something. I need to get that password and drop a picture in there every now and then on you guys. You will not get that password. Hi, guys. My name's Natalia.

I've been a long time listening to you guys. And I was just listening to your episode about Ward Weaver. And you guys were talking about how you didn't understand how why a lot of the victims were pressing charges. I can say that my dad is really abusive. And so my mom would call the cops. She didn't necessarily press charges afterwards. And mostly because she just wanted him out of her life and she wanted him to drive him to corner things like that. Because then she would have to see him and continue to see him.

So she just wanted him out of her life. So she didn't really necessarily press charges. But it's another reason a lot of people do it. Um, it's a reason why I've had done it before. Um, so sometimes it is just intimidation, but sometimes people just want certain people out of their life. Uh, you guys, be safe. No, I, I appreciate that call because I, I know you and I talked about being intimidated, being scared, but that's an angle that I never really thought about was that, okay, the pressing of charges means what? You're going to have to see this person. You're going to have to probably go to

courts, you're going to have to testify against them maybe. Continuation. There's something about that that many women wouldn't want to have to do. So we appreciate that enlightenment. And sorry, Rahm, and you have to go through that. Yeah. Yeah, no, definitely always. Gives no mailbag this week.

What? No mailbag. No mailbag. The mailbag is slowed down. Man. Which I think we understand why. I mean, I think you ought to risk it. Go out there.

Get stuff. You know. Well, we definitely haven't, we haven't gotten any magnets, any Harley chips lately, but there's probably not many places that have been open. A lot of places are probably opening up now, but for people to actually go and get that type of stuff. I have no snacky snacks, man. Yeah, we haven't gotten any beef turkey either. But I probably don't need any more snacky snacks, just to be honest.

Me and you got to cut back on the snacky snacks. I got to get back in my fitness routines. Get back at your fighting weight. back and back my fighting wait yeah all right that is it for another episode of true crime all the time so for mike and gibby stay safe and keep your own time ticking