True Crime All The Time - Jimmy Lee Dykes

Episode Date: October 25, 2021

Jimmy Lee Dykes was a man who hated authority. He was known for ranting and raving against the government, law enforcement, and the rules society is forced to follow. He had what he believed was a message that would change the world, and only kidnapping a hostage would get the government and the people of America to take him seriously. Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss Jimmy Lee Dykes. Dykes spent a year plotting his master plan. In January 2013, he enacted his plan by kidnapping a five-year-old boy off a school bus and taking him to a customized underground bunker. The seven days that followed became known as the Alabama bunker hostage crisis, a crisis that ended with the death of Dykes and the rescue of the little boy he kidnapped. You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 256 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. How are you? Hey, I'm doing good, man. How about you? I'm doing great. Good. I'm having a really good week.

Yeah. As you know, been playing a little bit of 2K. Yeah, you are a 2K legend in your own world. In my own mind. Absolutely. I'm actually not all that good, but I enjoy playing. We're seeing some great Patreon support. So let's definitely give some shoutouts.

had Jamie Trembal. Hey, Jamie. Christine Sanders. Appreciate that, Christine. Summer Noel. What's going on, Summer? Lisa Martin. Hey, Lisa. Allison Levitt. What's up, Levitt? Rebecca Murray. Appreciate that, Rebecca. Glenn Davis. Hey, Glenn. Veronica. Veronica. Veronica. Karen Kirkley. Amanda Wardle. Amanda Wardle. What's what's up? Behill Shainer. Oh, what's up? Behill Shainer. Allison. Oh, good old Allison. Kendra Bradford. Hey, appreciate that, Kendra. Lindsay. Hey, Lindsay. Hey, Lindsay. Donna Caudill What's going on, Cadill Carrie Paul

Hey, Carrie. Wendy Kimball. Well, thank you, Wendy. Graham Bus. What's going on, Graham? Justin Sykes jumped out to our highest level. Appreciate that, Justin.

Donna Kohler. Thank you, Donna. D. Gala. Hey, Gala. And Alicia Thompson. I appreciate that, Alicia. So thanks for all the new support. And then if we go back into the Vault Gibbs,

this week, we selected Terry Tokovic. Hey, Terry. So we appreciate Terry and all the people that continue to support us month after month. We had some PayPal donations from Lisa Putman. Thank you, Lisa. Robert Pearson. Hey, Robert. And James Green gave a sizable donation.

And thank you, James. Yeah, so we appreciate all of that. Gibbs, right now we have an episode out on True Crime All the Time Unsolved. We're talking about the Shaw Creek Killer. Yeah, headed down to South Carolina. And we're going to look at four Jane Does that were murdered. Two of the identities were discovered, but the killer is still out there. So check that out.

Also, big congratulations to Sandy Parky for being selected as the Patreon merch winner for September. All right, buddy, are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time? I'm ready. We're talking about Jimmy Lee Dykes, a man who hated authority. Now, I know you hate authority as well. I do. You hated my authority. Always.

When I had some over you. I did. And I used to say, respect my authority. And then I came here and you took away my good chair and gave me that wood slotted chair and just that's how you got even. And the rest is history. But this was a guy who was known for ranting and raving against the government, law enforcement, and essentially just the rules that society. kind of puts on you, right? You're, you're expected to follow certain rules. He had what he believed was a message that would change the world. And he thought Gibbs that only by kidnapping a hostage,

would he be able to get the government and society, the folks in America, to take him seriously? Dyke spent a year plotting. Then in January of 2013, he enacted his plan by kidnapping a fight, year old boy off a school bus and taking him to a customized underground bunker. The seven days that followed became known as the Alabama bunker hostage crisis, a crisis that ended with the death of dykes and the rescue of the little boy he kidnapped. And this was huge news. He sure was. A lot of people are going to remember this.

But I want to go back to, you know, spending a year kind of planning, plotting to the where, you know, you're building an underground bunker. I mean, obviously we're going to get into all the details, but this wasn't a spur of the moment thing. He really put a lot of thought into how he wanted to carry out his plan. Yeah, very detailed planning. Jimmy Lee Dykes was a Navy veteran who served in the Vietnam War. He was awarded a good conduct medal for his service. I should get one of those just for being here. For having to put up with me? Yeah.

Probably. Like the Fergie Good Conduct Award. I'll make something up for you. Dykes was married at one point and had two daughters. His wife's name was Nelda Lukers. She married him after growing bored in her first marriage. From everything that I read Gibbs, she thought Jim was kind of dangerous, a little bit exciting. So kind of the bad guy persona?

Yeah, and maybe the antithesis of what she had in her first marriage. Yeah. I don't know that for sure, but, you know, let's face it, some women go after the bad boys. Well, I'm picturing George Costanza and his leather jacket. Exactly. Leaming him up against that, what was that a Camaro? Camero, I think, or Mustang. I can't remember.

I think it was a Camero. Yeah. But you know if George pulled it off in Seinfeld, then it must be true. It has to be true. According to Jim's oldest daughter, Cindy. he was physically abusive to Nelda. She had to go to the hospital multiple times for injuries that she suffered at the hands of Jim.

Eventually, she had to leave because I think she got to the point where she realized either I get out of this relationship, I get away from this man. Right. Or he's going to kill me. She told Cindy that she wished she could just open him up and take out the evil inside him. Unfortunately, we know it doesn't work that way.

It does not. After leaving the military, Jim became a recluse. He divorced his wife. He abandoned his two daughters. At the age of 65, he was estranged from his family, living alone in a trailer in Midland City, Alabama. He worked as a land surveyor and a truck driver, but he was fired from his truck driving job after fighting with his boss. The boss can do that. And most bosses don't like it when you fight with them. No. And again, I'm not sure if this was just verbal or physical. You know, you and I worked well together.

We did. When we had that relationship. We did. We certainly never came to blows. And I don't remember us ever even getting in a verbal altercation. No, and I really did feel bad about that one time when I did that to your tires. Yeah. But then I realized it wasn't you that got me in trouble.

but it was already done. I forgave you. Jim's property sat at the end of a private dirt road. On the property sat his trailer, his van, and a large shipping container. I like those shipping containers. I think I'm going to get me a shipping container. I think they're building like homes. They are.

Now, out of those shipping containers, it's kind of, what's the word I'm looking for? Fashionable. Yeah. People dig them. Actually, I made a guy that delivers them. He's got a friend that buys decommission shipping containers, and then they sell them from one price on the internet. You buy it, and they deliver it, drop it where you want it, and leave it, go. You mean they don't sell it for two prices?

They just sell it for one price? One price. Okay. Yeah. I like that business model. Yeah. According to his neighbors, he liked to roam around his property, he carried around a pellet gun, and he would shoot grasshoppers. This thing's moved fast, man.

Yeah, it's kind of a tough thing to do. First of all, grasshoppers aren't all that large. No. And they tend to hop around and like you said, they move. Not really hurting anybody either, though. No. But he didn't leave it at that, right? He threatened to put antifreeze in dog bowls to poison his neighbor's dogs if they came on his property. One of his neighbors, Rhonda, later reported that Jim almost beat her dog to death just for going on to his property. He said, property. What a POS, man. Yeah, I think the vision that I'm getting is number one, we're seeing some bad signs here, but number two, you've got the neighbor from hell. Yeah. And I'd be probably putting my house up for sale to get away from this guy. It's not a secret. I've talked about it for years. I've had some neighbors that, you know, weren't my favorites. That's true. Now, currently, I like all my neighbors. It's because you don't talk.

to any of your neighbors now. I do. Some of them. But over the years, I've had some that have just been a little prickly. Yeah. You know, but nothing to this level, nothing where, you know, I felt my life was in any danger. I felt that my, my animals' lives were in danger. You know, that kind of changes the equation.

Sure does. If you're going to threaten me, my family, or my dogs, there's going to be a big problem. There's a different Fergie that comes out. Yeah. Yeah, it's not the happy go lucky furg that most people know. It's the I'll drop you where you stay in for you. Exactly.

Jim also had several run-ins with law enforcement over the years. He racked up charges for drug possession, drunk driving, assault, and larceny. I'm not surprised about the assault, knowing he had this temper issue. Yeah, it definitely sounds like he had a temper.

On November 16th, 2011, the sheriff's deputy responded to a call that Dykes was arguing with the neighbor over who had rights to some pecans that had fallen near the road. First person that gets their hands on them. That's who that's who owns the pecans. That's what I look at it. For me, that's kind of a man, you must not have a whole lot of problems going on in your life

if your biggest issue is the ownership of some pecans. Jim was scheduled to appear in court on January 30th, 2013 for charges relating to pointing a gun at his neighbor. I guess he had built a speed bomb to slow down one of his neighbor's sports car. So I lived in a neighborhood once where I kind of wanted to do that myself. There was this one person that would just like go way too fast down the street. Like fast and furious? Yeah. And I always, you know, because I had little kids at that time.

You know, and I thought, and there was a bunch of little kids. I thought, really, you're going to drive like that with these kids out? And I always thought, you know, one of these days, I'm going to throw something at you as you're going down because it just would take me off. But, you know, I wouldn't do that. Sure, sure, yeah. Allegedly. I don't know why you're supposed to say allegedly. I don't know why you rolled your eyes.

But so I can see, you know, if you could build like a little speed bump, that would have been pretty sweet, especially if you were able to do it at nighttime. And nobody knew about it? And then he came down in the morning, didn't know it, and just kind of ripped his car up a little bit. Yeah, I think the city, the county, I think they frown upon people. Pretty sure. Building their own speed bombs. But, you know. So these two guys got into a confrontation and Dykes ended up pulling a gun on this guy.

And I already mentioned it. But, you know, this was a guy that was constantly ranting and raving against the government. I don't think we have to go through and include all of his quotes because really most of the time he did a lot of rambling. But there are some samples of his rants that I that I want to point out. You know, at one point he said, you know damn well that what I say when I go public, it's going to create chaos. It's going to create riots. All this, people are going to be standing up to this dictatorial. incompetent, self-righteous, bunch of sorry bastards in the government.

So no doubt, anti-government. Sure. But, you know, there's anger there. There's really some trying to fan the flames, right? Fuel the fire. To me, it's almost as if he's saying, I'm going to start a revolution. Right. He's tired of this dictatorial.

Or dictatorial. Yeah, I got you. Yeah. He's just fed up with it, you know. why you would try to use that word. I don't know, but good on you, man, good on you. Good on me. And it wasn't like, you know, he was just standing out in the yard. You know, this was a guy who was trying to get some media attention. He wanted them to pay attention to his thoughts, his rants against the government. FBI profilers noted that. He always tried to make

himself the victim in every situation. Well, he blamed all his problems on the government. And this is not the first time that we've heard this about individuals who we've talked about on true crime all the time. Now, most of his neighbors thought Jim was just a, you know, kind of a mean guy. But I don't think Gibbs, they really knew that he was extremely dangerous, that he was going to go way beyond just kind of these ramblings. He was planning to act on a plot against the government. Yeah, he just wasn't mean and grumpy. No, because you do have a lot of people who like to spout off. They like to rant and ramble, but they're never going to do anything. Yeah. It's more of a venting, getting, you know, stuff off my chest. Now, you can still get in trouble for some of that, depending on what you say and things like that. But there are people that they don't stop there. Right. We know that they go further and they want to carry something out. Yeah. You and I worked with somebody that, would go on these long rants about what's wrong in the country.

Sure. You know, I mean, long rants. But that person would never do anything. Well, and I don't think it was rants to this level. It was never like, you know, going to harm somebody. It was just, hey, I don't like what's going on. I actually think there's a lot of people in the country over the last, I'll say 10, 15 years that have been vocal at one point or another that they don't like this, this or this about

what's going on in the country. I think we have a lot of that. And I'm not saying there's really anything wrong with it. But when you're planning to hurt someone, when you're planning to commit a crime, okay, that's that's much different. Yeah, to make your point, right? Yes. In early 2012, Dykes drove his neighbor Michael Creel to a local Walmart.

And apparently he spent the entire car ride fuming about a new gun law. On the way back, he talked about taking hostages in a church. and holding them until he could get a reporter to come who would broadcast his anti-government views. Okay, now you're way beyond the line. Yeah. If you're thinking about doing something like that, you can't be taking hostages. Later that year, Jim hired Michael Creel to help him dig in underground bunker. They spent weeks digging before they started the construction. Jim told Michael that the bunker was going to be a storm shelter. When construction was completed,

Dykes instructed Creel to get inside. He told him, scream real loud. I want to see if I can hear you. Okay. Does that matter if you're building a storm bunker? Well, shouldn't,

but. Well, Krill thought Dykes wanted to see if people would hear him call for help, right, if he somehow got stuck inside the bunker. And I get that. Sure, yeah.

You know, maybe something gets messed up. the door won't open. Can I get somebody to hear me when Creel came out, though he thought it was strange because Jim seemed very happy that the bunker was soundproof. Yeah, like kind of creepy, I think. Yeah, because it's going the other way, right? If it's a storm shelter and you want to be able to get people to hear you if something

goes wrong, well, then you don't want it to be completely soundproof. Right. But now that you found out it is, you're elated. Yeah. Okay. I got to rethink my position. In January 2013, Jim Dykes befriended local bus driver Charles Polar. Charles drove past his home every day and actually used his yard to turn around after dropping off children at the end of the road. surprised he was okay with that. Yeah, as much as he didn't want people and or animals on his property, from everything I read Gibbs, Charles felt sad for Jim because he was all alone. You know, everyone else in town called him mean old man, but Charles made efforts to make friends with this guy. He would occasionally stop to speak with Jim for a few minutes when he turned the bus around.

And, you know, to your point, not only was Jim not mad, he dug out. an area of his yard to make it easier for Charles to turn the bus around. So he must really like that Charles was coming by. I think he was just happy that somebody wanted to talk to him and didn't run the other way every time they saw him. FBI agents later learned, though, that this was not Dykes trying to be helpful. He was making it easier for him to later get on this bus. more of the master plan. Yeah. This was all part of the year long planning and plotting.

On January 28th, 2013, Charles Poland drove his normal route after school. He turned off the highway and he took the bus up the private road to drop off some of the kids. He noticed that Jimmy Dykes had recently cleared part of his driveway. And that day, Dykes approached the bus. They had a conversation. Charles thanked him for clearing the drive. driveway. Jim even offered Charles some broccoli and carrots from his garden, which Charles accepted, and Dyke said that he would see him tomorrow. That night, Charles told his wife that Jim looked like he needed a friend. And I think anybody probably who ran into Jimmy Lee Dykes would have seen that. Needed a friend or needed something in his life, right? Yeah. I mean, he was all alone. It sounds to me like by his

own hand, right? He had pushed everybody in his life away. Yeah. Whether it was his wife, his family, he had driven them away from him. And then even his neighbors, nobody's going to come over and bring you muffins. Right. If you're threatening to poison their, their animals or, you know, you're that guy who's yelling on your front step, you get off my yard. Yeah. Nobody wants to deal with those people. No. But Charles was okay with that. He was trying to be friend them, trying to be cordial and actually made the effort to have conversations with him. What sounds like he was trying to be a nice guy. Yeah. And help out another individual who he saw as just lonely and someone that needed a friend in their life. Yeah. But the very next day, Jim Dykes would murder the man who tried to show him kindness. Hey,

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Charles Polin was driving his route just like he did every day. He had 21 children on the bus. You got a lot going on there. At 3.32 p.m., Charles backed his bus into the the turnaround spot in Jim Ziar. Dykes approached the bus. He had another bag of broccoli. When Charles opened the door, instead of handing over the broccoli,

Dykes stormed onto the bus. And Gibbs, the school bus had a security system that recorded the entire incident. And right away, he demanded that Charles hand over two children. He said to him, I need two boys six to eight years old. Okay, very specific. Charles said back to him, hey, man, you can't do this. I will not let you take the children. I think anybody would say that.

I know I would. Yeah, you would really like to think that someone would stand up for these children, tried to protect them. And it sounds like that's what Charles did. I can't imagine what these kids felt like. They had to be scared. Sure. Dykes asked for two children to come forward.

He just kept saying it over and over. I need the kids. I need the kids. He said, they won't be hard. and then he would tell the kids, you won't be harmed. But Charles said to him, man, this is my responsibility to keep the kids on the bus. I can't turn them over to someone else. Yeah, I think as a parent, when you put your kid on that bus every morning,

you're expecting that that driver is going to do everything they can to protect your kids until they get them to school or return them back to you. Yeah, I would get that. Now, as a school bus driver, are you thinking when you get a, up in the morning that you're going to lay your life on the line? No. I don't think so. Does it surprise me that someone would? It actually doesn't because we talk about it all the time. You're talking about 21 kids. Yeah. This is a person who in his mind, in Charles's mind, has the responsibility of making sure that these kids are okay. Yeah. And he's going to do what he has to do. So as all of this is going to

on. Most of the children ran to the back of the bus, except for one little boy. Dykes continued demanding that a child needed to come forward. He told Charles that if he didn't hand over a child, he'd shoot and kill him. Well, Charlie wasn't going to hand over a child. No, and he said to Dyke, sorry, you're going to have to shoot me. Dykes responded, how about I shoot a kid then? I mean, Gibbs, think about it. I mean, this is a school bus drive. who is putting his life on the line for these kids. It almost, you know, it's making the hair on the back of my neck stand up a little bit because, you know, we're not talking about a police officer, a firefighter,

someone who knows that, you know, kind of every day they could be put in a life and death situation. Right. You don't really think about that as a school bus driver. Oh, you're thinking I need to get the kids to and from school safely without any accidents on the road. Right. I just need to drive safely. I need to make sure they behave.

But he's a human being. And obviously he was a very brave one because he's standing up to this guy. Yeah. As the minutes tick by, Jim got angry. And he told Charles, I'm going to have to shoot you now. Come on. I don't have any time. The law is coming.

Dykes called out for two children in the back to come with him, but they refused. Then he turned to a little boy. sitting in the seat directly behind Charles, Charles told Dykes not to take a chop, that he just wasn't going to give anyone up. So Dykes lifted his gun and he shot Charles five times. And he died pretty quickly after that. It's ruthless, man. Could have injured the guy, maybe throw him off the bus, right?

Oh, I think he could have done a lot of things. Sure. But I believe in his mind, he was on a mission. And the mission came first. And anyone that got in his way, that didn't matter to him. Yeah. If they did, he was going to take care of the problem in the most complete way. I'll put it that way.

Nothing was going to allow his mission to be derailed. Yes. Now, there were some older kids on the bus as well because a 16 year old named Trey Watts was sitting in the back of the bus. He took out his cell phone and he called. called 911. He told the operator, I don't know. We're on a bus and someone is trying to take our kids. And then a few moments into the phone call, he said the bus driver's dead. Trey later told CBS News, I was on the bus that day when I called 911. It was a normal day, just like any other. I usually

sat in the third seat from the back. We're dropping off the kids and I feel a big lurch on the bus. And I look up and I notice a guy is on the bus and he has a gun pointed at Mr. Poland's head. And you mentioned to Gibbs. I mean, how frightened must these kids have been? Terrified. I mean, from the start. But once this stranger to them, who I'm assuming it was a stranger to them, shot the school bus driver, that's a different level.

Oh. Of fear. The terror they must have felt of not knowing what could be coming. During Tray's 911 call, Jim Dykes ran off the bus with a child. He kidnapped a five-year-old boy named Ethan Gilman who was on the autism spectrum. And he took Ethan to the underground bunker on his property and he locked both of them inside. So he had what he wanted, Gibbs. He had the hostage that he felt he needed to help spread his message.

This was the way that he was going to give. his message out to the masses. People are going to start listening to me now. Sure. And they're going to take me serious. Because I'm going to make them. Ethan Gilman had just started riding the school bus that year. He was in kindergarten.

Ethan came from a troubled home. And he had some behavioral issues that he took medication for. He was in and out of foster care. And at one point, he lived with a local pastor, Brandon Turner and his wife, Nikki. When the Turner's found out that Ethan had been kidnapped, they organized a prayer vigil for him. And one of the things that I found very touching was that, you know, a lot of the papers talked about how Ethan and the bus driver Charles Polin had a very special relationship. Charles had been working with Ethan to help him face his fear of the bus steps.

And it really had just been recently prior to this incident that Ethan had got to the the point where he was able to get off the bus himself. He was able to walk down the steps and get off unassisted. Yeah. How amazing is that in the fact that Charles was that type of guy that had temperament to work with kids, right? You got to love this Charles Poling guy. I feel horrible that he lost his life. But in looking back, he seemed like just an amazing guy. Yeah. Because it wasn't just Ethan. Ethan was just one of the children that Charles had. And he seemed like, at a special bond with. His wife, Jan, told the Selma Times Journal about how much he loved the children on the bus. He liked to bring them desserts. And he found unique ways to discipline them.

She said, instead of raising his voice, he'd slow down the bus to a crawl until the kids behaved, got back in line. He always liked to tell his wife, some of these kids on my route, on the first face they see that day. If I can say just a little something encouraging, maybe I can make their day a little better. And that's a positive way to look at things. And it's, yeah, you're right. It's a great outlook on life. I think this was a guy who did, you know, really love children. He loved helping children. He just seemed like a really special guy all the way around. And that does make a difference. You know, that that first interaction of your day, especially if you're coming from a troubled family, you know, you just left the house. You're like,

man, you don't feel good about yourself and you run into this guy and he's like saying something positive to you? Yeah, just a positive influence in your life. Yeah. According to the Wall Street Journal, Jim Dykes left a note on the bus that said he'd let the world know about his anti-government sentiments and then he was going to kill himself. Part of the note read, I need two hostages to force the powers that be to listen. No harm will come to the kids.

When the story is finished, they will go free, and then I will die. I have to do this. Please don't make me do something I don't want to do. Well, he's set in the tone for how he thinks things should go down. Yeah. I don't know what you would make of this note if, let's say, you're the first police officer investigator on scene. You read this note, you're like, what is this?

Right. What's going on? But they didn't have to wait long because Dykes called 911. after he took Ethan to the bunker, the operator asked for his name. And he said, Jim Dykes, I'm in an underground bunker. The operator said, okay, sir, you have a child with you? Yes, I have a hostage. I'm in an underground bunker.

When the cops get here, they stop at the front gate and talk to a white post, a white PVC pipe sticking up. I'm sorry I had to shoot that bus driver. I told him there would be no harm to anybody, and there will not be any harm to the kid. But I'm going to say something. Sheriff Wally Olson was one of the first officers at the scene. When the police arrived, they used this PVC pipe sticking out of the bunker to communicate with Jimmy Dyke. Because that's the only option they had.

Dykes refused to communicate via cell phone. He would only speak to law enforcement through this pipe. which obviously he planned knowing this right i mean he buried that in the ground yeah it set up that way yeah obviously this was done beforehand so he had this form of communication in mind yeah the sheriff's department realized they needed more assistance so they called the fbi field office in mobile alabama steve richardson was the fbi agent in charge of the case molly amman was the head profiler kevin cornelius led the hostage rescue team and Bill Rafferty of the Sheriff's Department acted as the main negotiator.

Well, Dike's getting what he wants. He's getting the attention. He's got the federal government there now. So this is kind of playing into his hand. Yeah. And I think he knew that there was no other way it could play out. Right? This is a hostage situation.

He has a little kid. Of course, they're going to call in, you know, all kinds of different agencies. according to CBS news, Steve Richardson said about that first day. It was all orchestrated. It was all part of his master plan. According to him, he had a story to tell. Now, we didn't know the nature of the story, only that he thought that once the public became aware of his story, there would be riots in the street and potentially a revolution

of some sort. It became very clear that Ethan was a pawn for Dykes. to carry out his plan, at least in his mind. Boy, Dikes really had a lot of faith. In his message and that other people were going to glom onto it and all of a sudden think, yeah, you know what, man, you're right. And take to the streets and start rioting. Exactly.

He really must have believed this. And I think you're right. I think in his mind, he had built it up so much over time that he not only, only did he believe the message. That's one thing. Right. But he believed that the message was going to be so powerful for everybody else that they would have no choice, but to come to the same realization that he had, which is very strange, if you think about it. Sure. But he's probably not thinking in the same type of rational way that most of us do. I mean, I think you would have to say or call it delusional.

Right. He was delusional in that fact because just thinking about it rationally, that's not going to happen. Number one, you can't get 10 people in a room hardly to agree about something. No. Let alone a whole bunch of people to agree about overthrowing the government or, you know, doing something like that. Michael Creel learned what happened and he gave the FBI all the information that he had about the bunker,

which would have been pretty good. He helped to make it. Steve Richardson sent agents to try to look into the two. And by the end of day one, the FBI learned that the bunker was six foot by eight foot by 12 foot. It had ventilation, electricity, and bunk beds. They also learned that it was rigged with explosives. Which is a key thing. There was a bomb inside the PVC pipe that officers were using to talk to dikes. So as they were talking to him, they were a few inches away from a potential explosion. So again, he had a long time to plan this out. He had thought of a lot of things. Okay, what if they do this? I'm going to need to counter it by doing X. Yeah. So some very tense moments.

Extremely. I mean, first and foremost, you have a five-year-old kid. Yeah. That you have to get back unharmed. But I think very quickly during that first day, they learned, right, this is not going to be as easy. We can't storm this bunker. Right.

Because it's a really a explosive situation. No. Just like a play on words, right? Literally. Yeah. And that's all by the design of Jimmy Lee Dykes. But Gibbs, we're, we're just finishing up. day one. On day two, an FBI negotiator convinced Dykes to allow food and medicine deliveries

for Ethan each day. I think, first of all, they were planning that this could potentially drag on for a number of days. And we're going to find out that it does. But one of the things that FBI negotiators kept emphasizing to Dykes was that he was responsible for Ethan's safety. which is good. You mean, you have to make sure he understands that. He is a five-year-old boy with you. Yeah, I think one of the keys is to humanize. Yes. Ethan. I've never been a hostage negotiator, but I've watched movies. Sure. You know, I do think that that's very important for anyone who is bent on committing a crime, who's captured, who's kidnapped. You need that person to see their victim as human.

Yeah, because less likely to hurt them. Yes, right? Absolutely. Because we already know he plans to hurt himself. Yes, and he said that. Steve Richardson requested profilers from the BAU in Quantico and the FBI's elite hostage rescue team. The FBI constructed a special PA system that allowed them to talk to Dykes without getting close to the bomb. That's smart.

And eventually, you know, Dykes accepted a cell phone. to make communication with negotiators easier. And I'm not sure why he was so against the cell phone from the beginning. I don't know if he thought that maybe they could do something to him, you know, via a cell phone. Well, maybe he thought they could listen in if he had his cell phone on somehow. Maybe. Or maybe he just wanted them to walk up to that pipe. So if he wanted to push a button, he could blow him up.

And know just how serious he was. Yeah. That could be with the. cell phone, Dykes made his first demands. So he wanted a female reporter to come inside the bunker so that he could tell his story. And he said that he would swap Ethan for the reporter. After he told his story, the reporter would watch him take his own life and then she could leave. He planned to kill himself by putting a plastic bag filled with helium over his head. And he said that the reporter would hold his hand as he suffocate.

Okay, it's a little bit much. There's a lot going on here to break down. First of all, who's volunteering for this? I get it. You're a reporter. You want to get the scoop. You want to get that story that nobody else can get. Right.

But are you willing to walk into this situation? I mean, it's very unstable. And the fact that you have to hold this person's hand as they take their life. Yeah. Like he wants comfort. Is that giving him comfort? Or he wants her to be able to fill his life, leave his body. I have no idea.

So far, I have not been able to figure him out. And I'm pretty much thinking Gibbs I never will be able to. Right. Yeah. What the FBI did was they tried to trick Dykes into thinking that FBI profiler, Molly Ammon, was a reporter. But somehow Dykes figured out she wasn't, that she was an FBI agent. He was furious. That's when the FBI brought in Bill Rafferty from the sheriff's department and he became the

primary hostage negotiator. During one of the food and medication deliveries, agents were able to sneak a camera inside the bunker. So they got a little bit better picture, right, of what was going on in this bunker. The setup. Yeah, they saw the beds. They saw a TV. And they saw that the bunker was stocked pretty well with food and water.

The camera also identified another. bomb inside the bunker. But that's the type of information that authorities want, right? They want to be able to see what they're dealing with and see if they can use any of that to their benefit. Yeah. I think you need as much of the pictures you can get. And I think once they knew that he had a TV, that's when they came up with the idea

to hold a press conference thinking, okay, he's watching the TV. You know he's watching the news, seeing what people are saying about him, what he's doing. So the sheriff held a press conference and thanked Dykes for taking care of our child. Again, very calculated, very smart. Number one, it boosts Dykes ego. Oh, yeah. Because you're in some respect kind of putting him up on a pedestal saying, hey man, great job.

Thanks for taking care of our child. At the same time, I think you're trying to. to give him an even greater incentive to take care of Ethan, right? We don't want any harm to come to this little boy. So if you're seeing yourself being praised on television for doing just that, are you going to keep doing it? That had to be the mindset. Yeah.

Profiler Molly Ammon later told CBS, Jim Dykes needed Ethan because Ethan was his only protection against assault on his position, and he knew that. Ethan needed Jim Dykes because he was the difference between life and death. He was providing him food, water, medications, toys. And we haven't talked about this little boy's parents yet, Gibbs, but just imagine finding out that someone is holding your little five-year-old boy hostage. He has bombs. My anxiety would be out the roof. Yeah, and I think it would be such a helpless feeling. What can you do? Nothing.

The FBI at this point can't even figure out what to do. Right. You set to sit there and just hope that the authorities do everything they can to get your boy home safe. Dykes continued communicating with the FBI about Ethan's safety. He made sure to feed him, give him water. He allowed him to watch TV and play with toys. But the FBI knew, right?

So right now at this moment, he's kind of being the good guy. when it comes to Ethan. He's not hurting him. He's taking care of him. But I think they knew Gibbs. He could change his mind at any moment. Oh, yeah. He was definitely unstable.

Yeah, there's no doubt about that. So I think from the beginning, they knew that time was of the essence, right? When it came to trying to get Ethan out of that bunker. We can't let it go on too long because something bad could happen. Exactly. Got to act fast. Yes.

By day three, everyone in Midland City. knew what was happening. Amazingly, several female reporters volunteered to take Ethan's place, but the authorities wouldn't let them. And you kind of know that, right? I mean, there's no way they're going to let that happen. No, they're not going to let it happen, but that's amazing. That someone would step up and say, you know what, I'll do it. Yeah. If it means saving this five-year-old boy, I'll go into the bunker, I'll take his place. That's heroism at, at, at, to highest level. It really is.

I mean, you're literally putting your life on the line for someone that you don't really know in a situation where you know there's bombs. The guy has already said he's going to take his own life. Right. So how much could he care about yours? I think it takes a special kind of person to do that. And to know that there were more than one.

There were several people. Like you said, he's so unstable that if he thinks that again, that you're not a real reporter, Maybe he might really go off. It could go bad very quickly. Sure. Destiny's Church sat a quarter mile down the road from Jim Dyke's property.

The Destiny's Church pastor opened the doors up to the police. Churches and restaurants delivered food to the 300 law enforcement officers working the case, a local RV dealer loaned vehicles so that the FBI agents could set up multiple offices. Basically, everyone in the community came together to do anything that they could to help out in this situation. And you kind of do expect that. You do. Because as we've talked about before, five-year-old child, most of these people probably have children of their own. They're thinking about what would I want to happen if this was my child in this position? I'd want everybody to do anything and everything they could. So now I'm going to do that.

Whatever your talents are, whatever you can contribute, you want to. On day four, the C-Bs, the Navy's Construction Battalion came to the area and they built a mock bunker. The hostage rescue team practiced using this mock bunker. They had a plan to storm the bunker and rescue Ethan in an emergency operation. Agents were able to find receipts of the material. dikes purchased to make the bombs. Agents at the Quantico demolition range reconstructed a bomb and they tested it. And Gibbs, what they found out was that the bombs were no joke. Yeah.

Dykes had managed to build some powerful bombs. The one inside would undoubtedly kill not only himself, but Ethan. There was no way around it. Exactly. They definitely were designed to do more damage than, I think authorities originally thought. On day five, the authorities grew extremely concerned when they learned that Ethan had become attached to Dykes.

Dykes told the negotiators that Ethan said he loved him. And I guess this upset him because he never planned for his hostage to get attached to him. And I think this made the team worry even more that Ethan would get hurt during the rescue mission if he tried to hold on to Dykes. Yeah. Or, you know, stay with him or near him if a firefight broke out, a gunfight. Chases the whole plan of action now for authorities. Yeah, it does.

But we know this does happen. In hostage situations, it can happen. Yeah. Where the hostage can become attached to the hostage taker. But we're talking about a five-year-old kid. Sure. probably scared and this guy's giving him comfort and he's autistic yep and so i don't know exactly where you know he was at on the spectrum but i think you hit the nail on the head scared well what happens

when a kid is scared there's they see comfort sure there's only one person in that room with him yep and this is the same guy that's giving him food yeah taking care of him and doing all those things making sure he has a bed to sleep in. So you can see both things. You can see why Ethan would become attached in that way, but you could also see why the FBI would view that as extremely dangerous. Oh, sure, because as soon as one of those rescue personnel comes through that door, Ethan might just run right towards Dyke to hold on because he's scared.

And he might grab him and get caught and hit and, in a gunfight. So on this day five, Dykes became increasingly agitated. As the day went on, he got really upset when he found the hidden camera. He also got upset at one point when he saw an agent pointing a gun at him through the hatch. At the end of that day, the FBI negotiators made it very clear that Dykes was unwilling to come out and wouldn't agree to any negotiations. The FBI's behavioral analysts in Quantico told the team the best they could hold for was a murder suicide.

The best they could hope for. And I get it. They're paid to analyze the situation and come up with scenarios. And this is the scenario I'm thinking that they felt was the most likely to occur. Well, for the agents on the ground, that would be a nightmare. It was. And I think, you know, if you're an FBI, agent on the ground. You've been there for, let's say, four or five days. And you hear that pretty

tough to swallow. Yeah. Because that's not what you're hoping for. That's not what you're planning for is a murder suicide. You're hoping to get in there and get Ethan out safely. Yeah. I mean, you're going to say, not on my watch, man. Not on my watch. You know, they made plans to storm the bunker. And it came out later that many of the agents said that they were willing to die in order to save Ethan. I believe that, man. I do believe it. We talked about Charles Polin, the bus driver.

He was willing to die to save those children, and he did die. These are FBI agents who are actually paid and whose job description kind of entails dangerous situations to save people. Right. But you still have to even think about them, man, it's very heroic to have that. to have that mindset that I'll trade my life if need be to save this kid. On day six, the FBI tracked down Cindy, Jim Dyke's oldest daughter. Her mother and Jim's ex-wife had died just a few weeks earlier.

The agents informed Cindy that her dad had just murdered a man and kidnapped a child. And Cindy said that she was willing to do anything to help. Two agents picked her up and they drove her to Alabama. Gibbs, she was preparing to speak to her father for the first time in over 10 years. 10 years. Could you imagine? No. Going 10 years without speaking to my daughter, no. And this is your first conversation you're going to have after 10 years. Right. This is not, hey, come over for Friday night supper. We haven't seen each other in a long time. This is, we haven't seen each other in a long time. I've taken a five-year-old boy hostage. We're going to talk.

Yeah. She's like, what the what, dad? What are you doing here? Exactly. I mean, her job's to come there and comfort him and to reassure him and make him feel like everything's going to be okay if he just comes out of the bunker. Yeah, and I think, you know, one of her thoughts was that she would tell him, hey, you know, even if you go to prison, I'll come and visit you. You'll still have family.

You'll be alive. This boy will be alive. Now, day six was also the day of Charles Poland's funeral. Hundreds of people came to pay their respect. back to Charles, and they should. This guy was a hero. He was. In the early morning hours of day seven, Dykes grew belligerent when he realized that authorities

just were not going to allow or bring in a female reporter. Why did it have to be a female reporter? I don't know. I never did understand that. Maybe he thought that a male reporter might be able to overpower him. Yeah. and subdue him and maybe he thought he would have a better chance of that not happening if it was a female reporter.

That's the only thing I can imagine was going on in his head. He told the negotiators that if anything happened to him, he had taught Ethan how to detonate the bomb and he gave the police until 5.30 p.m. to provide a female television reporter. But Dykes refused to. answer any questions about Ethan. He told negotiator Bill Rafferty, I'm going to die in this hole. So to me, Gibbs, six, seven days, very tense. But now things have to be looking even more dire. Things are ramping up. Yeah, he's talking about, you know, he knows he's going to die, but that he's taught this five-year-old boy how to detonate the bomb.

So now the rescue team's really got to pick up the pace and start practicing more and more. on that other bunker that was built. At 7 a.m. the agents called Cindy and said it was time for her to talk to her father. She and two negotiators went to the property and they waited. Dyke seemed agreeable to a video chat with his daughter. He even asked for a comb and a clean shirt so that he would look presentable. The FBI gave the rescue team approval to move in only if it was safe to do so.

So I think the parameters of, it being safe to enter would be, okay, Dykes has to come up the ladder to get the computer for the video chat. And then Ethan had to be out of the way of the ladder. At 312 p.m. Steve Richardson gave the go ahead to storm the bunker. The negotiators didn't want it. They wanted a different outcome, but they were overruled. The agents approached the bunker and said that they were there to drop off the laptop for the video call. The negotiator said that Cindy was there to talk to him. Dyke said, okay.

And just a moment later, FBI agents detonated flash grenades inside the bunker. And the negotiator closed the laptop so that Cindy couldn't see what was happening. So basically what they did was when Dykes approached the hatch, they dropped these two flash grenades to blow the hatch open. the first operator jumped in, but he got stuck on the way down. Dykes had set up this little kind of snake pit of metal cables, which blocked the entrance into the bunker. He also had set up the ladder in such a way that anyone who jumped down,

risk landing on the bottom rungs and breaking a leg. I mean, he was smart about his planning, right? He had taken a year. So you, you figure he had gone over this many, many, many times in his mind, planning it and then putting it into reality. The second operator jumped in and landed on the first operator's head and shoulders. Dykes started shooting at the operators. So the team had to pull these guys up.

Remarkably, they were uninjured. But Dykes detonated the bomb inside the PVC pipe, smoke poured out of the entrance along with shards from the PVC. So the team quickly had to make a backup plan. They tried to send an attack dog down the shaft. Yeah, but it got stuck in the cables too. Good plan. But, you know, if these guys are not able to get down, the dog's not going to be able to get down.

So what they did was they threw in some stun grenades, which gave them time to clear out the metal cables. The team descended and as soon as they got down, Dyke started firing on them. Operator 1 jumped in the bunker, found Ethan, and covered him with his body. Operators 2 and 3 fought with dikes. From what I understand, the entire mission took about five minutes. Yeah, it's always quicker than you think, right? I mean, this seems like this would have taken much longer than that. You know, you get the first operators go in, get stuck, they got to come out, he's in the dog in.

So you always think these things will take much longer than they actually do. Yeah, five minutes doesn't seem like that long for everything that went down. Now, you got to realize they'd been sitting around for six, seven days. And then, you know, it's basically over in a matter of, you know, minutes. Yeah, I mean, you go from all this chaos, right, during that five minutes to complete silence. And then the lead operator finally radioed back to the control center and said, the child is crying. And I think it was that point gives that, you know, everyone on the team led out a huge sigh of relief. because if Ethan was crying, that meant he was a lot.

And there for a while, they didn't know what had happened, what had gone on. What they found out was that Dykes was shot and killed during the fight. He had 12 gunshot wounds to the face, neck, torso, and hand. No agents were harmed. And neither was Ethan. That would be a very successful rescue. Yeah. I think it was.

it's also kind of amazing. Obviously, Dykes had a gun. He was firing at these agents. He didn't hit anyone, but they sure hit him. And you can probably chalk that up to someone who owns guns, shoots guns versus people that are extremely proficient with guns and have been in life and death shootouts probably before. Hundreds and hundreds of hours of training. Yes. Thousands. I would say, but yeah, a lot of hours of training. Right. The team immediately called Ethan's mother. His entire family was with her to hear the good news.

That evening, the team investigated the bunker. They found two more bombs and many more writings full of Jim Dyke's ideas against the government. Cindy was informed that her father died during the rescue operation. She was upset that the FBI. had used her as a distraction. I think she was really hoping to talk to her father one last time. That can understand why she would feel like that. Well,

like she had been used as a pawn because kind of she was. I think she was angry for a long time, but eventually accepted that the agents had to do what they had to do. Yeah, it was for the best for Ethan. Yeah, to save Ethan. Ethan was kidnapped just a few days before his sixth birthday. His family celebrated his rescue with a huge birthday party. After Ethan was rescued, he lived with his birth mother for a while, but social services

eventually moved him back in with the Turner family. In February 2013, Ethan's mother, Jennifer Kirkland, appeared on the Dr. Phil show. She made the statement, Dykes took care of Ethan to the best of his abilities. From the very beginning, I had already forgiven Mr. Dykes, even though he had, he still had my child. Okay. That one I'm having a tough time square. I got to be honest with you.

In the very beginning, your son's a kidnap victim. Right. And you've already forgiven his kidnapper, even though you don't know what the outcome is going to be. It's a hard pill to swallow, especially knowing that the kidnapper killed the bus driver. Yeah.

To get your child. So you know he's capable of murder. Now he said he's not going to hurt the child, but you don't know that. I don't know. I read that statement, heard that statement. I was just like, man, that's not going to be me in the very beginning of things. We know he set off the bomb when the bunker came under attack. That could have killed Ethan. He couldn't have known that Ethan would have survived. No. I don't think there's any way he could have. As of 2021, Ethan is 14 years old. He lives with nine adopted brothers and sisters in the Turner family home. he has few memories of the incident. In 2020, he told CBS. It all happened in a split second. I saw this

thing coming from the door. It went da, da, da, and then smoke. I can actually hear it doing that, you know, as it bounces off the floor and then finally explodes into the smoke. Yeah, I mean, that's probably what it would sound like. Da, da, da, da, and then smoke. But I kind of look at it this way, Gibbs. It's probably a good thing. that he doesn't have that many memories of the incident. It sounds like he's doing well. Yeah. It doesn't sound like he's haunted.

And maybe that's why. He doesn't remember he was young. And so I think that's a good thing. Yeah. That you can move forward with life. Midland City dedicated a section of Charles Polin's bus route to him to honor the sacrifice. He made to protect the children on his bus.

And he made the ultimate sacrifice. He did, man. And I, again, I know I've already said it, but I can't say enough about this guy. I mean, what he did, it just, it hits me in a way. Right. That I can't even explain the way that it's hitting me right now, hero. I mean, that's just the only word that's coming to my mind. The Alabama bunker hostage crisis shocked a small town of Midland City, Alabama.

It was extremely devastating to parents. as these things always are, right? Gives, I mean, you think about it. You put your child on the bus, okay, you think everything's good. The bus driver is going to take them to school. They're going to bring them back to school. This is kind of a safe space for them. Yeah.

Obviously, they were grateful for Charles Polin, who died trying to protect the children on his bus. Although the hostage crisis didn't end exactly the way the FBI hoped it would, they were able to save Ethan, which was the ultimate goal of the operation. I think if they had it their way, they would have captured Dykes alive. I mean, I think the ultimate goal going in is for no one to die. Right. But most importantly, is to save Ethan.

Yeah. Because Jim Dykes had already decided he wasn't going to leave the bunker alive. He told people that. He told the authorities that. His note said that. His note said that. So, you know, they had to have known when they dropped down into that bunker, it was going to be kill or be killed. Because this is a guy who had no plans on living anyway. Now, he thought he was going to get to deliver his message. And then he would take his life. It didn't work out that way. His life didn't end the way he planned. But it's kind of like, you know, a person who escaped. from prison or, you know, they say, I'm never going back. You kind of make that decision that if you encounter police, you're caught by police, there's going to be a firefight.

I'm just, I would rather be dead than have to go back to prison. Kind of the same mentality, I think. I just think Jimmy Lee Dykes was a guy who was so focused on doing this one thing, which was getting this kind of strong. strange message that he believed in. I believe that. He truly believed in this message. He wanted to get it out to the masses. And that was his only goal. And once he was able to do that, I think he knew that he was going to take his life. He didn't want to spend the rest of his life in prison. It just didn't go down that way. And so would he think he was a martyr? Yeah. I think in his own strange

way that could be part of it. Yeah. Maybe part, I don't want to spend my life in prison. Maybe part people are going to hear my message. They're going to rally around it. And then they're going to see that I gave my life for this cause. And maybe that's even going to strengthen my message even more and drive people. It's just going to explode. Yeah. And it was just never going to happen that way. It was just to me, such a warped way of thinking. Now, the one thing that I don't know, I really didn't see much about it, is, you know, whether he had any type of mental illness. He very well could have and maybe it just was never documented or, you know, maybe he had started or had recently developed something that was going on inside him. I just don't know. Crazy case, though. Yeah, it absolutely is.

is a little different from most of the cases that we do. But, you know, I've always found this to be very interesting. Sad that Charles Poland lost his life. Amazing that they were able to rescue Ethan. Yeah. And, you know, again, Jimmy Lee Dykes died, but I think that was inevitable. I think that was going to happen no matter how this thing went out. But that's it for our case on Jimmy Lee Dykes died.

on Jimmy Lee Dykes in the Alabama bunker hostage crisis. We've got some voicemails, Gibbs. You want to check those out? Oh, I love to hear some voicemails. Hi there. This is Katie in Fort Worth, Texas. I am calling in. This is my first voicemail.

I've been listening for about two months straight, trying to, maybe not two months, maybe a little less than that, but started, went back all the beginning. I think I am actually on the Eric Smith episode. today is October 15th. I just finished it. It's 1 o'clock in the morning on the 16th now.

And so after every podcast I listen, I go and Google it just to get pictures and see what they look like or I go to the Facebook page or whatever. And I just thought it was really ironic that he actually just got granted parole today on August 15th. So I just thought that was a good opportunity

to call in and leave a voicemail. Very awful crime. But I just thought that. That was ironic that he actually got granted parole today. I also wanted to say that I'm not team Gibby or Spurgy. I haven't teamed T-Cat. I don't think either one of the show would be anything without either one of you. So you all both make it together.

And that's why I enjoy the show much so much. Keep doing what y'all are doing. You're doing a great job. And keep your own time ticking. Thank you. Bye. It's a nice voice, Mel. Yeah.

And you and I actually talked at length about his parole. on our weekly Patreon video. Hey, Mike and Gibby. I'm sure being from Ohio, you have heard of serial killer Thomas Dillon. My grandfather was actually best friends with his father. And after Thomas's father died, my dad and uncle used to play with Thomas and his brother

until my grandma put a stop to it, saying there was something off about that boy, meaning Thomas. Also, another one of my dad's brothers dated a girl for many years who actually took part in the Jones Town Massacre. to Grands of Kloids. I suppose I figured out where I got my interest in true crime from. Ohio is a funny place. But I'm also from Washington State, where we have Ted Bundy and the Green River Killer. Speaking of Ted, I actually knew his mother when she lived with the retirement home I used to work at. Anyway, keep your own time ticking.

Wow, that's a lot of true crime connections for one person. Big time connections. Yeah. Thomas Dillon, I'm 99% sure he's on the list, but we'll make sure. Hi, Mike and Gibby. My name's Kaylin. I live in North Carolina, and I just started listening to your podcast maybe two months ago. I work at a job that allows me to listen to my headphones while I'm working. And I'm currently on the Michael Wayne Jackson case. I'm starting from the most recent going backwards. And Gibby said something in here that just made me chuckle. Mike, in the beginning of the episodes, you were talking about some of the things. that Michael Wayne Jackson had done. And Gibby chided in and just said, yeah, he was bad. And it just made me chuckle because obviously that's a Michael Jackson song. And I don't know if Mike it just went over your head or if you just chose to ignore it because you know how Gibby is.

But I just want to let you guys know I really love your podcast. And stay safe and keep your own time taken. Who's bad? I'm bad. But, you know, a lot of times I just don't want to. you to get a big head. Yes. So, you know, I don't want you to think that you're too funny, just the right amount. I don't want your head to get so big that you can't come down into the studio. Yeah. Because it's pretty big already. The way to get down to the studio? No, no, your head.

Oh, okay. With all the people talking you up and the team gibbies and all that. So, you know, you got to keep you grounded, man. It's part of my job. Do a really good job at it. I do a good job. I come down, I sit in this chair that's lower than yours, you're higher up. Oh, don't start with me. All right, that's it for voicemails. And we actually had no mailbag this week. What? No, no mail.

No mail bag. So that's it for another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.