True Crime All The Time - Jodi Arias Part 1

Episode Date: June 17, 2024

Jodi Arias became infamous after she murdered her ex-boyfriend Travis Alexander in June 2008. Her 2013 trial was a media circus. Jodi argued that she killed Travis in self-defense. They had a complicated relationship. There was a whirlwind romance, and then Travis tried to distance himself. But, as some friends described it, Jodi was his kryptonite. Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss Jodi Arias and the murder of Travis Alexander. In part one of the Jodi Arias episodes, we’ll cover the early lives of Jodi Arias and Travis Alexander, how they met, and their tumultuous relationship that ended with Travis being brutally murdered in his own home. You can support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 388 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime Mike Gibson. How are you? Hey, I'm doing good about you. I'm doing great. You and I have so much stuff coming out. We do. Saturday, which already came out. Yeah. It was a Patreon episode on this guy named Christopher Loverin and he murdered two people at least. Yes. Police think it's probably higher. Higher. But the murders were 20 years apart. Yeah. And they linked him through, you know, genetic genealogy, forensic technology.

So it's pretty interesting case from that standpoint. Yeah, I thought it was fascinating. And then un-unsolved right now, we have an episode out on the disappearance of Susan Powell. Big case. Big case, infamous case. You know, her husband, Josh Powell. Piece of shit. Like I said, on Patreon, one of the most hated men ever for what he did.

Absolutely. Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shoutouts. We had Bailey. Hey, Bailey. Jace Reese jumped out of our highest level. What's going on, Reese? Kelsey Key. Hey, Keeke.

Tyler Fink. What's going on, Fink? Sarah. Oh, there's good old Sarah. Suzanne Colwicky. I like that. Colwicky. Peggy.

Hey, Peggy. Courtney Morris. What's going on? Courtney. A Quinn. Quinn. And last but not least, Mariah Cole. Well, thanks, Mariah. And then if we go back into the vault, this week, we selected Brianna Kramer. Well, thanks, Brianna. Yeah, thank you to everyone. All right. All right, we got to jump right in because we have a big case here on our hands as well.

We're tackling Jody Arias. So this is part one. Jody Arias became infamous after she murdered her ex-boyfriend Travis Alexander in June 2008, her 2013 trial was a media circus. Jody argued that she killed Travis in self-defense. And in part one of the Jody Arias episodes, we'll cover the early lives of both Jody and Travis, how they met and their tumultuous relationship that ended with Travis being brutally murdered in his own home. Such a big case. It is a big case, but why is it a big case?

You know, it's a question that we ask from time to time. You know, are there salacious aspects of the case? Absolutely. Yeah. You know, sex, intrigue, murder, all of that. But there is a reason why some cases grab the headlines more than others. And this one certainly grabbed them. It did.

There is no doubt about it. Jody Ann Arias was born on July 9, 1980 in Salinas, California. Her parents are Bill and Sandy Arias. Jody has four siblings. Growing up, she was closest to her younger brother, Carl. Jody's family moved to Northern California when she was 12 years old. Jody's mother, Sandy, said that she had a normal childhood. However, when speaking to investigators, her parents mentioned that Jody might have bipolar disorder.

Sandy said in a police interview, Jody has mental problems. Jody would freak out all the time. I had quite a few of her friends. Call me and tell me I needed to get her some help. Well, people that were around her all the time would see things, right? They would. But, you know, to me, this statement or these series of statements brings up two questions. number one is if you're getting these calls from friends saying you need to get her some help well did you oh true that's a question yes and then i think number two saying that she might have bipolar disorder is that true or are you saying that because she's been arrested right for murder yeah and you're trying to help her out a little sure yeah joddy's dad said that

she had not been open or honest with them since they caught her growing marijuana in a Tupperware container when she was in the eighth grade. Her parents searched her room and called the sheriff's department. That's pretty strict. Yeah. Yeah. You know, there's a fine line between giving your kids some privacy, you know, how much do you snoop? How much do you search their room? But let's say you found a Tupperware container with some weed in it. All right. Would you be happy that your eighth grader has weed. No. Obviously, you probably wouldn't be happy, but would you call the Sheriff's department? I don't think I, I know I wouldn't. No. Oh, you know, maybe they wanted to really try to scare, you know. Are we going with the scared straight type situation here? Yeah. To me,

this is more of a sit down saying, hey, you know, I get it. People want to try stuff, but you shouldn't be doing this. You definitely can't be having this in our house. However, you want to approach it, but, you know, I don't think you need the SWAT team vaulting in, uh, you know, like in, uh, Christmas vacation. Yeah, bust into the window. And, and all of that. Bill said in his interview, something turned in her head that we were nosy parents and we're going to search everything. She had. So she hid everything from us and always has since then. Well, there, you know, there's maybe a little bit of truth to the hell. I think there's many parents out there that, depending on what age their kids are,

do a little snooping when their kids are away. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Because without some of that, how do you know what's going on? Well, if you feel like something's going on with your kid, you know, then yeah, maybe you have to do that. And, you know, it doesn't necessarily have to be called snooping either. I mean, you know, we could just be talking about monitoring, whether it's internet activity or whatever. Or call parenting, right? Yeah.

Just part of being a parent. Maybe. But you could also see how maybe in her mind she said, well, obviously I can't trust you now. I can't tell you things. Yeah. There's a fine line. There is. Dealing with kids and all kids are different.

So Jody would later test. that her parents physically and mentally abused her. And we'll get into these allegations further in part two when we talk more about the trial. In 2017, Sandy told an interviewer for the website Feminine Collective, I do not feel responsible for Jody's actions, but that doesn't mean she does not have my complete love and support. And we might have talked about this last week. I can't remember. You know, what's it like as a parent to find out that your child has done something

absolutely horrible, killed, right? Committed murder. What do you do? Yeah, it's a tough scenario to be in, you know? And are you responsible in any way on how that whole thing went down? I don't know. Now, I do think there have been scenarios where physical and mental abuse that was documented, that was real.

Yes. has played a part. Sure. And I say a part, not the entire thing, but a part in what someone has gone on to do later. But that's why we'll have to talk more about those allegations. Yeah. Jody eventually dropped out of high school and later earned her GED. She left home at the age of 17.

She worked different jobs as a young adult. She was ambitious and wanted to be financially independent. She lived in different cities in northern California for several years, then moved to Big Sur on the Central Coast. Jody's relationship with her parents was strained. She spoke to her mother sporadically, which Sandy didn't think was too abnormal for a woman in her early 20s. I think that's going to differ depending on the type of individual. I've mentioned it before. My wife talks to her mom every day. Yes. And has since I've known her, which she was in her early 20s when we met. So that part is nothing like what we're hearing here. Now, we have a daughter who's in her 20s.

She doesn't call every day. She keeps in touch, but she doesn't call every day. Again, I think it's different for everyone. I agree. Like my daughter, 27, we message or talk more. We message or talk more. more than my son who's 24. I mean, we just, every now and then, shoot a little text. You know, if I can get him on the phone. Yeah. You know, now he is in L.A., so it makes it a little tougher, you know, time-wise. Because a lot of times he's ready to talk, you know, like at 2 o'clock at night when I'm already asleep.

Yeah. You know? I get it. And I don't see the call coming in or whatever. And then I feel bad the next day. And then we play that back and forth. And eventually we connect. but I don't even if we talk to every day I don't know what I would say I don't know what like you say

your wife talks to her mom yeah I don't know I don't listen as soon as the phone call starts I head to the basement yeah you're like yes I don't know exactly what I don't know exactly what they talk about Jody was in a serious relationship with a man named Daryl Brewer for four years Darrell later testified that he and Jody met in 2001. She came to the luxury resort, Ventana Big Sur to apply for a server job. He was a food service manager. He said he initially was not attracted to Jody and they had a normal supervisor-employee relationship. He considered Jody an exemplary employee.

They worked together every day for a year. Daryl stepped down as supervisor and took a server job due to change. in management, now that he and Jody were equals, they started a romantic relationship. They lived in separate staff housing at this point. In 2003, Daryl moved to Monterey, California, but he continued seeing Jody. He introduced Jody to a son and was happy they had a good relationship. During their years together, he didn't feel as if Jody was an angry or jealous person. Did you ever have a relationship with somebody at work? Your wife? Is that how you met her right that's how we met I thought so yeah yeah that is exactly how we met at work and I think a lot

of people do yeah I think so you're seeing people for what eight nine 10 hours a day five days a week spend more time with them than people you would spend outside of yeah so yeah I think it's very easy to get to know someone to fall in love with someone in 2005 Jody and Daryl purchased that a house together in Palm Desert, California. Darrell said in an interview with AZ Central that he wanted to marry Jody, but he couldn't because of his son. If he got married again and had another child, it would take away from his limited time with his son.

And I thought that was an interesting take. You know, here's a guy who obviously was in love with Jody, right, to the point where he wanted to marry her. But his son was so important to him. that he didn't want to risk losing, you know, what limited time he got to spend with him. But that's good for him, right? I mean, your kids should come first when they're young like that. Kids should come first.

You're saying at a certain age, they don't have to. After a certain age, you're on your own. I come first now. According to Darrell, things changed around May 2006 when Jody started working for a company called Prepaid Legal. The company has since changed its name to Legal Shield. Legal Shield is a legal subscription service. Members pay a monthly fee and can get access to a lawyer when they need it.

Sources describe it as a network marketing or multi-level marketing company. Well, there's some MLMs out there. There are. I just would not have thought that that was one of them. Givey Products, Inc. Yeah. that I refuse to get involved with. I mean, look, if you could just take a look at the brochure and all you need to do

do is bring in five of your best friends. And if they can bring in five of their best friends, you will be retired before you know it. Oh, I'm sure. Because those always work out. By mid-2006, Jody and Daryl were falling out of luck. He wanted to move back to Monterey to be closer to his son. And Jody was busy working three jobs. one of her side gigs was photography and you know i i do think this is something to talk about as it relates

to jody you know it was said she was very ambitious she was very focused on becoming financially independent it was a drive of hers it did seem to be and so it doesn't surprise me that she was working three jobs she seemed to have been a very driven person yeah now sometimes being very driven is not always a positive thing. It depends on where you're focusing that drive. Well, that's very true. And I think we're going to find that out in this case. Daryl noticed a personality change in Jody.

And they stopped sharing bedrooms. Jody continued to pay their mortgage, but not their other bills. And she started accumulating debt. According to ABC, she told Daryl she was converting to Mormonism. and said she would no longer have sex with him because they weren't married. They decided to go their separate ways, but remained on friendly terms and talked sporadically over the years. Jody no longer wanted to be with Daryl because she met someone else.

30-year-old Travis Alexander, a salesman and motivational speaker. Jody broke up with Daryl within two days of meeting Travis, according to AETV. You know, when you're a motivational speaker, you tend to have that, what's that word I'm looking for, that. Gravitas? Yes. Okay. Yeah.

And I think she fell for that. We're probably going to talk about it, but I think Travis Alexander had a lot of things going for him. Oh, absolutely. I mean, he wasn't a motivational speaker who was living in a van down by the river. No. Travis Alexander was born on July 28, 1977. He grew up in Riverside.

California with three brothers and four sisters, according to the Arizona Republic. Travis had a difficult early life. His parents who are now deceased struggled with addiction and his mother was physically abusive. You know, one of the things that I've learned since you and I have been doing true crime is that there seems to be a lot more moms who were maybe physically abusive than I would have thought. Oh, yeah. Because we hear about a lot.

We do. So what do you think that is? Do you think it's because these moms are just not good parents? Or do you think that they had something in their past? Well, I'm sure there's a bunch of different reasons. Like there is for everything. I think here specifically, you know, if we're talking about a couple of people as parents who were struggling with addiction, I'm sure that played a role.

I'm sure it did. but maybe there were other factors as well. Travis wrote about his childhood on his personal blog. In one post he wrote per ABC, when you sleep for four days with a house full of kids, there isn't any food cooked. We would eat what was there, but before long,

what was edible would be eaten or rot, and then what was rotten would be eaten too. Pretty bad. Yeah, it is pretty bad because, you know, there's physical abuse, but then there's also just plain old neglect where you're not providing for your children.

They're scrounging for food to the point where they're having to eat rotten food just to survive. And how do you sleep for four days with eight kids running around, screaming? And I mean, I think it'd be very difficult to do. Well, I think it happens because you've gone on some type of four day bender or whatever. it is. It doesn't happen naturally. Let's put it that way. That's for sure. His brother, Stephen told ABC, it was a very tough life living with our mother. We kind of fended for ourselves, instant noodles was the main source of nutrition. Now, I'll be the first to admit, I'm a big fan of ramen noodles. Yeah, you are. I have a ton of them stacked up over there. I know. They're

terrible for you, but I ate them in college and it kind of takes me back. I really enjoy. I mean, the good thing is for me, you don't prepare those for dinner when I come over. No. No, and I wouldn't, you know, throw those at my five, six year old kids and say, you know, here, make your own dinner. That's kind of a late night snack for me when dinner didn't fill me up. When you don't want to go upstairs. Yeah. I can do it right in the microwave down here. But that's not a nutritious meal for growing kids.

No, not at all. Travis and his siblings moved in with his grandmother when he was 10 years old. She provided a loving and stable home environment and introduced the kids to church. Travis became involved with the LDS church as a teenager. And his faith was an important part of his life. And you see this time and time again. where mom, dad, or one of the other is not living up to expectations. And a grandparent or a set of grandparents have to step in and take over.

And they do. Thank goodness they do. Travis served his two-year mission in Denver, Colorado after graduating high school. According to the Arizona Republic, Travis did not smoke or drink alcohol. he was interested in fitness and nutrition as well as environmental issues. Travis described how he overcame his struggles in a spiritual motivational book titled Raising You, which he finished shortly before he died. So as it stands right now, I mean, you know, you're looking at Travis as a guy who

has his life together, despite growing up and what sounds like a very hostile, dysfunctional home. Yeah, sounds like he overcame adversity, right? Much of that, probably due to his grandparents influence. Travis was in a relationship before he met Jody. He dated the woman named Deanna Reed in 2000, but they broke up

when she left to serve her mission in Costa Rica. They started seeing each other again in 2002, but they broke up three years later because Travis was not ready for marriage. They remained friends. Travis moved to Mesa, Arizona for business opportunities and to get more involved in the LDS community,

he became a top seller for prepaid legal and was eventually promoted to executive director. Jody and Travis met at a prepaid legal convention in Las Vegas in September 2006. And it was said that they hit it off immediately. And Travis invited Jody to the formal executive dinner as his guest. They spent the entire dinner. talking to each other, then spent the rest of the night together, not parting ways until about 4 a.m. So clearly they were really into each other. Yeah. I mean, I think it was an instant attraction. The next morning, Travis told his friend Sky Hughes that he found his wife and he

wanted to marry Jody. Pretty quick. That's very quick. When he had been dating this other woman off and on for what about five years. And he said he just didn't want to get married. He's known Jody for not even a full day. Yeah. And he wants to marry her. Really quick. How long did it take you to realize you wanted to marry your wife? You're being very invasive as far as my, no, I'm just kidding. Um, not long. Yeah. Not long. You know, people talk about love at first sight. And again, we were so young. We were like 22 when we got married. Right.

And so 20, I think, when we started dating. But I think it's a real thing. It was for me. Yeah. Well, good. Before they left the conference, Travis urged Jody to read the book of Mormon. Jody and Travis started talking every day. According to court records, they exchanged 82,000 emails throughout their relationship.

That's a lot of emails. That's a lot of emails. That's a lot of anything. That's true. That's a lot of any form of communication. Yes. Just between one person and another. You think about how many emails you send every day in your business life.

Okay, it's a bunch. Right. And I'm sure that number would be staggering if you knew what it was over a two, three, four year period. But this is with one person. Exactly. You got to come up. with a lot of things to say to fill 82,000 emails. Now, I say that, but when my wife and I met,

there was no email. And so we would stay up till three or four in the morning just talking on the phone. Well, that's true. Now today, people do text or DM chat things or, you know. I don't even know what all is out there anymore. Snap this, chat that. You sent me a woof the other day, and I was like, what is this? Pretty cool, wasn't it? It was cool. Travis's friend, Scott, told ABC, she was really excited about the relationship.

She loved how funny he was, how much fun they would have together. Travis loved to take adventures and do different things. Soon after meeting Jody, Travis sent missionaries to her home. They discussed the book of Mormon and scripture. So I do think it's very easy to see

how big of a part of Travis's life his faith actually was. Oh, it's big, huge. Jody converted within months of meeting Travis. She was baptized on November 26th, 2006, and Travis participated in the ceremony. Jody said in an interview with ABC, it was emotional. It was spiritual. It was powerful. It's a feeling that like everything just comes right into a lot.

alignment and nothing can go wrong. Clearly, she was definitely into converting. Because I think she was that into him. The two maintained a long distance relationship and often met in Murietta, California. Where Sky and her then husband, Chris lived, Jody posted photos of Travis on her social media. In an email to his friend Sky, published by ABC, Travis wrote about his feelings for Jody. He wrote, Went from intrigued by her to interested in her to caring about her deeply, to realizing how lucky

I would be to have her as part of my life forever. She is amazing. It's not hard to see that whoever scores Jody, whether it be me or someone else, is going to win the wife Lotto. Wife Lotto. And I think it just provides a ton of insight about how he felt about Jody. Yeah. And you have said many times to me that you feel like you hit the wife lot of.

Well, I definitely outkicked my coverage. That's for sure. No argument here. Jody and Travis officially started dating on February 2nd, 2007. But they broke up by June 29th of that year. So that's not a long time. It's not. Five months or so.

One big issue in their relationship was sex. And, you know, this goes back to Travis, being a faith. member of the LDS church, he and Jody had a premarital sexual relationship, which goes against the church's value. And Travis fell guilty about this. He sometimes took out his negative feelings on Jody, calling her a slut and a whore in emails. Well, that's going to have a negative impact on a relationship. Yeah, it's not going to be good when you're calling someone a whore and a slut. But also, let's be honest, it takes two to tango. For sure.

You know, you could be tempted. That's one thing. But to give in, you got to take a little bit of responsibility yourself, I think. Yeah. Yeah. And I think if you're very dedicated to your faith and you're breaking the rules, it's going to have an impact. And you're going to blame somebody besides yourself. Some people are.

Yeah. Some people might blame themselves. author and journalist Shanna Hogan, who wrote the book, Picture Perfect, the Jody area story told ABC. Travis wanted to marry a virginal, pure Mormon girl. And by having sex with him, Jody eliminated herself as ever being marriage potential for Travis. Now, this is assuming that Jody was a virgin before this. Yeah, that's a big assumption. or was it just because the two of them had already been together before married and maybe that was

more of the issue. Travis felt too guilty about having premarital sex to continue dating Jody so they broke up. However, they continued their sexual relationship. Jody moved to Mesa, Arizona weeks after the breakup. There had been red flags from the beginning, but her behavior worsened. now that she was closer to Travis. And, you know, this is part of the story that, to me, is very strange. Travis breaks it off, you know, because of this guilt that he's feeling. Right. But continues to do the thing that was causing him to feel guilty in the first place.

Yeah, but I think now in his mind, I'm not going to marry her. So it doesn't matter. So it doesn't matter. Yeah. And she seems to be okay with it too. So. Yeah. I get that.

after you said that, it doesn't seem as strange. Because I do think probably in his mind, there was a difference. Yeah. This wasn't the person that he had put up on a pedestal, maybe, that he was going to marry down the road. Yeah. This was now just a sexual partner to him. No longer the wife lotto. Yes.

But I also thought it was strange that Jody moved to Mace, Arizona after the breakup. Well, maybe she felt different. differently than how he felt. Well, I think that's a given, and we're going to find that part out. Jody showed up to his house unannounced, letting herself in through the garage since she knew the code. She once snuck in through a doggie door. Sometimes Travis was angry with her when she showed up uninvited, and other times he had sex with her, according to author Shanna Hogan. Again, nobody really likes the pop-in. No.

But if you're a 20-something-year-old single guy, maybe sometimes you want the pop-in. And other times you don't. But the problem with the pop-in, if you don't want it sometimes, we want it other times, it's going to confuse the person doing the pop-in. They're like, wait a minute.

The other day, you wanted me. Yes. But today, you don't want me. But that's why I think you should always just avoid the pop-in altogether. Yeah, a phone call. Yes. Beforehand is good.

you know, sneaking in through the doggy door? First of all, who can fit through a doggy door? It must have been a big dog, a big doggy door. Yeah, or I mean... She was a pretty thin person, but still, you know. That's some, what's the word I want to say? Some contortionism? Yes.

If I went through a doggy door, I'd get stuck like at probably my head. You couldn't even get your head in a doggy door. Me neither. Travis started seeing Lisa Andrews Daydoni in July 2007. They met at a church function and dated on and off. Lisa was 18 and Travis was 29 when they first met. Lisa broke up with Travis because she believed he was cheating on her with Jody.

And I think she was probably correct. Yeah. Travis sent her emails and texts and they eventually got back together. they broke up again because Travis pressured her to get married when she wasn't ready. Well, 18 can be a little early for many people. Oh, yeah. Now he's 29. I think he was,

he was ready to get married. That's the sense that I get. Yeah. And maybe it was because he was in his late 20 or maybe he just wanted to start a family. I don't know. But I agree with you. You know, at 18, it's not what most people, especially today, are thinking about. Lisa sent Travis an email in September 2007, describing problems in their

relationship. She wrote that they kissed for too long and she felt like Travis only wanted her for her body. She believed Travis had a lot of sexual tension, which made her feel used and dirty. She wrote that she asked him not to grab her butt, but she didn't think he was listening. She asked him not to talk about sex so much, but he did it in. anyway. She also felt like they didn't share the same values. Well, you got to be on the same page as a couple. It doesn't sound like they were really on that same page. No, but I will say that she sounds very mature for an 18 year old. Yeah. In some of these, you know, ideas that she's expressing to Travis. Lisa and Travis discussed her email. Travis said he wanted to address

the issues. She wrote about and show her he cared for her. Lisa soon felt like they had resolved their issues and they started dating again for the third time. They mutually broke up in February 2008. One of the big problems lurking in the background of their relationship was Jody Arias. Jody was jealous of Travis's new relationship and tried to harass and intimidate Lisa. Lisa heard knocks on her doors and windows, but the person knocking ran away before she could confront them. Travis's tires were slashed twice while he was seeing Lisa. He suspected Jody did it and confronted her. After this, Lisa received a harassing email from John Doe.

Again, Travis suspected Jody was behind it. But Travis was still talking to Jody. Even though he was in a relationship, for example, in January 2008, Jody sent Travis the now infamous text message, where she said, she wanted to give him a mouth hug. I'm not exactly sure what that is.

I don't even want to say what I think it might do. Okay. Yeah, I don't think you should try. But, you know, obviously it's explicit. And it's these types of explicit text messages and all the details about Jody's sex life that really are some of the main reasons that her trial later on was so sensational. Part of the reason why, you know,

it grabbed the attention of the public. Absolutely. The media loved it. Travis's friends told ABC, they noticed warning signs with Jody early on. They told Travis about their concerns and eventually became worried for his safety. Sky Hughes once told him,

I'm afraid we're going to find you chopped up in her freezer. Okay, that's probably a little bit more than just, concern about maybe this relationship's not going to work out. This is concerned to the level of we think that she's dangerous to you. But back then when that was said, it was probably like, oh, you're just overreacting. Yeah. And again, some of it could have been a little bit of a joke, but I don't know.

Travis also told his friends, according to people, don't be surprised if you find me dead one day. So it wasn't just his friends. Obviously, Travis at a certain point started to at least have the thought that this thing could go back. Yeah. We just heard somebody say that on the episode we did, I think, last week or two weeks ago. And I'm thinking if you're saying this, I would think need to do something more about it. Hear this again and again on two different podcasts and I know we've heard it before on other ones we've done.

Take action. Yeah, if you can, right? We've talked about that before. Sometimes you can. Sometimes you can't. But if you're saying these things, but still having sex with this person, when they come over, well, that is within your control. Absolutely.

It is. But I don't think there's any doubt, right? That Jody was obsessed with Travis. Travis's friend Sky told Huff Post in another interview, she was totally obsessed with him. She wouldn't let him go. Whenever he would try to sever all ties, she would threaten to kill herself. He would tell her he didn't want anything to do with her and she would show up at his house. We knew it was her.

We didn't want it to be her, but we just knew it was. Jody was possessive and felt the need to sit by Travis at all times. She didn't like him talking to other women, even if it was nothing more than a friendly conversation. One friend recalled a time where they were hanging out in a hot tub and it was difficult call to talk to Travis because Jody was straddling his lap and kissing his neck. Travis told her to get off of him. Jody followed Travis to the bathroom and stood outside the door to eavesdrop on his conversations. She went through his phone, his emails, and social media.

She forwarded emails between Travis and other women to herself. That's extreme. Yeah, I mean, this is way over the line. Now, I have to ask this. question. At a certain point, why is she still allowed to have access? Well, exactly. You know, at what point do you say, we are done? And that means with everything, do not come around. You don't get to sit in a hot tub with me. You're not going to be associating with the same people I'm associating with. We're done. But then it said, you know, okay, she would threaten to hurt herself,

which I get, nobody would want that. No. But, you know, are they still having sex? Is he still giving in to that kind of carnal activity, but yet trying to push her away at the same time? Because that's not going to work out well. Oh, because you're sending mixed messages. Absolutely.

But this, I'm going to kill myself. I think that's used a lot with both men and women when they don't want the other party to leave them. And it's, it's a, it's a shame. One day, Sky and her then husband Chris sat Travis down and told him they thought Jody was dangerous. Travis brushed off their concerns saying he thought Jody was sweet and he really liked her. So again, some of this is, I'm sure, happening out of order, but it also does sound, like you said, Gibbs, that there might have been mixed messages sent on the part of Travis at certain points. During their conversation, Sky realized Jody was right outside the door.

Travis didn't believe her until he opened the door and found Jody on the other side. Chris Hughes told ABC there was rage in her eyes. Sky and I are very frightened at this point. She might burn down our house, you know, with all of us in it. No doubt, these two people were convinced that she was extremely dangerous. Yeah. Travis and Jody spent time together after he and his girlfriend, Lisa, broke up in February 2008. In March, they visited several states together, including Oklahoma and Texas.

This kind of adds to the problem, though. I think it does. I think it does. You know, if, you know, you're trying to sever time, but you keep. allowing or maybe even sometimes inviting this person back into your life because you're now lonely or you know you've broken up with a girlfriend and and you need companionship or want companionship. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it, but it is sending mixed signals. Oh, for sure. There's just no way around it. Now, does that mean that he deserves what happened to him?

absolutely not. No, not of all. In April 2008, Jody left Arizona and moved in with her grandparents in Y. Rika, California. Travis was excited and told a friend, I'm getting my life back. Like, this is a whole new start. She's gone. I mean, I'm conflicted. I am confused. He wants her gone, but yet is spending time with her is traveling to multiple states with her. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, probably hard for them, right? Because in one sense, when they're together, maybe sometimes it's really good. But then other times it could be really bad. You've described every relationship in the history of time. None of them are great all the time. I do think to strip it down to like the

base level, maybe there's just a component of sex to it. Yeah, sure. Yeah. While it seemed like he wanted to be done with Jody for good, they still continued texting and even having phone sex. Travis's brother, Stephen, told ABC that Jody was Travis's kryptonite. Absolutely. You can see that. He just could not stay away from her. Even though he said he wanted to, it seemed like it was very tough for him. Jody wrote her final blog entry on May 10, 2008, part of which read, I cannot ignore that

there is an ever-present yearning and desire that pulses within me, it throbs for gratification and fulfillment. It makes me want to wonder this entire globe in search of something that I might suddenly experience it, discover it, or some other sort of quickening to quench this thirst I've had since childhood. All right. I feel like Fabio should be on the cover of this thing. There was throbbing. There was, you know, other things going on quenching, gratification. I feel like there's a mouth hug on the way. Maybe. Maybe. That same day, Travis texted Jody, per Huff post. Why don't you have him come and fuck you in the woods? I can only imagine you are so worried about me reading. You're paranoid because you have no respect for people's privacy and you

dare insult me of all people. Someone you show through your actions. You hate more than love by denying me a human right of privacy countless times. You have a lot of freaking nerd. We are all not like you in that aspect. Now, obviously, the Huffington Post omitted the expletive, but I put it in there because I think it's important for a couple of reasons. Number one, because Travis actually wrote it that way. But number two, it seems to be him talking about another guy, almost. It's not clear exactly what he's talking about, but it's almost like he's jealous of another guy for some reason. Yeah, that first part, for sure, sounds like that. That month, Jody and Travis got into an intense argument for unclear reasons. According to ABC, Travis wrote, you don't know what

horror you have caused me. Jody said it wasn't her intention to harm him. Travis called her a sociopath and the lowest of the low. On May 18th, 2008, Travis made his final blog post titled, Why I Want to Marry a Gold Digger. So, I mean, there is a ton of friction between these two people. I mean, you can see it in the in the tax messages. Right. You know it from the things that Travis says. said to different friends. But at the same time, they are drawn to each other. The one friend said that she was his kryptonite. It's almost like he wanted to stay away from her. He didn't care for her. He didn't like her. But if she showed up, you got weak. Maybe. Travis wrote that after turning 30, he decided to adjust his priorities and date with the goal of marriage.

His must-have qualities in a wife were spirituality, mutual physical attraction, effective communication, and a desire to have children. Part of the entry read, I did a little soul searching and realized that I was lonely. I realized it was time to adjust my priorities and date with marriage and mind. This type of dating to me is like having a very long job interview and can be exponentially more mentally taxing. desperately trying to find out if my date has an axe murderer pinned up inside of her. Wow. Who do you think he's talking about there?

Absolutely. Jody. Yeah. I don't think there's any way around it. In early June 2008, Travis told his friends, he suspected Jody hacked his Facebook account and claimed he told her to stay out of his life forever. So I feel like, you know, up until this point, they have run like the gamut of the gamut of emotion in this relationship, right?

It started out great. It quickly soured. I think a lot of that was due to the fact that they had sex pretty early on. And Travis felt as though she was no longer marriage material. I do believe that was a big part of it. And then at a certain point, I think both he and those in his life thought she was, she was dangerous. On June 2nd, Jody picked up.

up a vehicle from budget rent a car in Redding, California. On the fourth, she traveled to Travis's home in Mesa, Arizona. They had sex and took explicit photos of each other. A final outgoing call was made from Travis's phone that afternoon, but in the evening, he missed a business call. On June 5th, Jody traveled to West Jordan, Utah to see her former love interest in co-worker Ryan Burns. Jody met Ryan at a prepaid legal conference in 2008. Ryan said he met Jody at a business conference in Salt Lake City. Ryan noticed that she had dyed her hair dark brown and had cuts on her hands. Jody explained that she was working in a Margaritaville restaurant and cut her hand on a broken glass.

Then on June 7th, Jody returned her rental car in Redding, California. It wasn't until June 9 that Travis. his friends found his body inside his bathroom. They were worried about him because they hadn't heard from him in days. He had plans to go to a company retreat in Cancun with his friend Marie Hall, known by Mimi. She met Travis through their church ward. She said they went on one date, but there was no spark. They remained friends and Travis invited her on the work retreat. She agreed to go as friends. Travis had mentioned to Mimi that his tires were. were slashed. He also talked about receiving threatening emails and believed someone broke into his

bank accounts. He did not report this to the police. So Travis's friends who were already at the retreat called and texted him about scheduled activities, but he didn't answer. He even missed a conference call. He was supposed to lead. Mimi and two other friends went to check on Travis on June 9. And is my understanding Gibbs that Mimi and Travis were set to leave for Cancun the next day. Travis's roommate, Zach Billings, was at the house watching a movie with his girlfriend.

He said he hadn't seen or heard from Travis and thought he was already in Mexico. But obviously, Mimi was there and she knew, right, that he wasn't supposed to have left yet because she hadn't left yet. In an interview with Nancy Grace, Zach said he last saw Travis in passing the Sunday before he died, June 1st, 2008.

Travis's friends told Zach that he was supposed to be in Mexico with Mimi, but they hadn't heard from him, and they were worried. Travis's bedroom was locked. So Zach searched the house for a spare key. The group went to the door together. Zach tried a few of the keys and found one that opened the door. Zach looked to his right and saw a pool of blood. He looked down the hallway and saw more blood.

Zach walked to the closet adjacent to the hallway. which opens up to Travis's bathroom. He entered the bathroom and saw Travis's body. He came out of the room and told the group, he's dead. Call 911. Travis's body was crumpled in his shower. The bathroom floor,

walls and sink were covered in blood. And to picture this, obviously it's gory, but you have to do it to get a sense of, you know, what these people encountered. Yeah. What a nightmare.

Here's his roommate thinking, okay, I haven't seen him for eight days, but he's in Mexico, so I'm not expecting to see him. Obviously, they must not have been sharing their schedules or, you know, whatever, that can happen between roommates. Travis had been shot in the face and stabbed 27 times. His throat was cut from ear to ear. A 25 caliber bullet was lodged in his cheek. investigators found a bloody palm print outside the bedroom, long brown hairs on the floor and walls of the room, and a spent 25 caliber shell casing on the floor near the sink. And I think this is two cases back to back where the murder weapon has been a 25 caliber pistol.

Yeah. And it's such a strange caliber to me. It's not a typical one. Not today. No, not today at all. A digital camera was also found in the washing machine in the downstairs laundry. The camera appeared to have been run through a cycle. And that seems like such an odd thing. I get it. We've all run things through the washing machine accidentally. Right? You forget a pin or chapstick seems to be one of the big things in my house that people forget to take out of their pockets, a digital camera has never been one of them. Plus, I don't even know if there were other

clothes in there. The only thing I leave in is obviously my wallet. It never comes out, according to you. It won't come out. So just keep washing it. But no, that's a strange thing to put in the wash, right? Obviously, you would think there's a reason why. Yeah. I mean, I think you would find it hard for that to be accidental. Right. Digital camera. Investigators determine the murder occurred five days earlier on June 4th, 2008. Travis's roommates didn't realize. His body was in the house between then and June 9th. And that seems so odd, but, you know, if you think that your roommate is in Mexico,

number one, you're probably not going into that person's room or bathroom. There really would be no reason to. Yeah, unless you wanted to snoop. Yes. And so you're just. you're just kind of living your life. You got your girlfriend over. You're doing your thing.

But to find this scene and then find out later that the body had been there for like five days. And you were living there the entire time. And not doing laundry. And apparently not doing any laundry. Travis's other roommate Enrique Cortez spoke to Nancy Grace and explained why he didn't realize Travis was dead. Enrique said that in hindsight, there were a couple of things they noticed that seemed off. Travis's ring was laying on the kitchen counter and the bathroom light was left on for days. He explained that the house was large.

It was two stories. It was about 4,500 square feet. That is a pretty big home. Travis's bathroom was on the opposite corner of the top floor from Enrique's bedroom, separated by a large loft. it took a while for any odors to travel past the primary suite because that is one thing that you naturally think about okay this body after five days is probably not going to smell great right some type of decay going on and at some point somebody's going to notice it but this does sound

like a a pretty big home and it sounds like these roommates were separate their rooms weren't like right next to each other right right enough distance in between when questioned Travis's friends and family indicated that Jody should be questioned so you know that's interesting that right off the bat her name is probably the first one that comes up it's not a shock because how many people had told Travis they thought she was dangerous according to ABC Jody called the police to ask about the case within hours of the body being found. She told Detective Esteban Flores that she spoke to Travis briefly the day he was killed, while she drove to Utah to see a guy she was dating.

Detective Flores told Jody that her name had come up during the investigation. She denied being in Arizona at the time of the murder. Don't you find it a little strange that she called the police within a a few hours after the body was found? Yeah, I did. I mean, obviously she had to have been alerted by someone. Now, I could see her maybe calling a friend, somebody that she was close to that maybe knew Travis to get some particulars on what happened. But to call the police does seem strange. And then to kind of offer up that, you know, hey, I spoke to Travis, but, it specifically was while I was driving to Utah to see a guy I was dating.

To put her in a different area at the time of the order. Yeah, it's almost as if the real reason she called was to try to set up this alibi. Right. On June 13th, Jody posted a photo gallery on MySpace titled In Loving Memory of Travis. On June 17th, Jody attended Travis's memorial service and went to the Mesa Police headquarters and voluntarily submitted her fingerprints and saliva sample. While awaiting the results of the DNA testing, investigators recovered disturbing images from the digital camera's memory card.

The deleted photos showed Travis standing in the shower. They were taken moments before he was killed. He appeared to be posing in some photos, but others showed a subject on the floor of the bathroom bleeding profusely. Six other photos showed Jody on Travis's bed in provocative sexual poses. According to people, one image appeared to be accidental and showed a person believed to be Jody dragging Travis's body. So clearly this is going to change the investigator's thoughts on Jody. I would think it's got to put her in the crosshairs, right?

Number one, it becomes patently obvious that someone, to destroy this digital camera and failed. Authorities were able to pull the pictures off. She had to have known what was on that camera. So that leads me to believe that she must have thought putting it through a watch cycle was enough. And obviously it wasn't. Why not just take it with you?

Yeah. I mean, it's like the disposable camera in the case we covered last week. Yeah. Why even leave it there? Just take it and dispose of it elsewhere. An investigator wrote, Jody was lying about not seeing Travis since April of 2008. This also proves that Jody was the last person. I can prove had contact with Travis prior to his death.

So, you know, the pictures were huge. There's no doubt about that. On June 19th, the police questioned Jody about the murder. She said she last saw Travis in April 2008, but spoke to him on June 3rd. she explained that they ended their relationship in June 2007 because of jealousy issues on both sides. They continued having sex, but kept their relationship private. And there is a ton of audio related to, you know, the interviews and interrogations, but I do want to play a part of it. If you were in my shoes and I had this evidence against you, what would you say?

If I had that evidence against you, it would be pretty obvious. But I guess being in my position, it just seems so impossible. I don't want to see it, I want to know. I mean, I'm not like, I'm not a murderer, but I guess if I were to do that, I would wear gloves or, you know, something. I just, how could mine? I know you tried to posh him off, try to get some of the blood off, try to clean them up a little bit.

But you're even denying the pictures. of you being there there's pictures of you laying on the bed and pigtails pig tails? Yes and I've got pictures of you that I've blown up and you've got that little mold right there

it's the same one it's you, it's obvious I can show you some of these pictures do you want to see the pictures will that change your mind? I mean I am curious let me take a break in and let me go find them

I'll bring him and show you. I wasn't there. What you need to think about, what you're saying. This continuing to lie is not going to help you. It did me to something I didn't do. I'll help me either. Okay, let's say for a second that I did. And I say, I did it.

So literally, I could play a ton of, you know, different parts of interviews and stuff. But, you know, I picked that one specifically. because there was a couple of things I wanted to talk about. So this was after the detective had kind of laid out a lot of the evidence, right, against her. And the thing to me that she found most dubious was that she was wearing pigtails. Yeah.

In the pictures. But he said, like she's even trying to deny that the pictures are of her. That's not me. And they clearly are. but the pictures being digital put her at the house at a certain time when she says she wasn't there. Yeah. And so obviously she asked to deny, deny, deny. But it was just like pigtails.

I can't believe I had pigtails. You know, that's the part that you're, you know, exclaimed. And then the other thing was, now let's say I did it. And I always find that strange. Why don't set a high pathetic. scenario in which you actually were the murderer. Yeah. If you didn't do it, stick with, I didn't do it. Yeah, I would wear gloves or I would do this or later that evening, Jody posted on my space,

Mrs. Travis, see you soon, my friend, but not soon enough. On June 26th, investigators were informed that the hair and bloody palm print found in Travis's home belonged to Jody. The bloody print contained a mix of Jody and Travis's DNA. July 9, 2008 was Jody's 29th birthday. It was also the day a grand jury in California indicted her for first-degree murder. Jody was arrested by Arizona detectives and sheriff's deputies on July 15th. She was questioned for four hours. Minutes before she was charged with murder, she was captured on video, singing, laughing,

asking about her makeup, and even doing. a headstand. Kind of a famous video, really. It is. It's, and it's the part that a lot of people have talked about, you know, especially when this case was going on, but even still today. And it was a big part of what the media grabbed a hold up. You know, here's a woman who is being accused of killing this man, her former boyfriend, and she's laughing, singing, doing hands,

stand. She might have even done a cartwell at one point. I can't remember. It just seemed like such strange behavior for someone in that position. During her interrogation, Jody said she was supposed to be in Utah on June 4th, but got there a full day later because her phone died and she got lost. Jody's friend Ryan Burns told the police he tried to reach Jody at that time and his calls went to voicemail. So she had tried to plan all of this out, right, Gibbs. I mean, you can see it. The renting of the car, getting to Utah, but then this story about, well, my phone died. I got there late. It's because she was in Arizona. Arizona for sure. Murdering Travis Alexander. A detective showed Jody photos of her and Travis hours before

he was killed. And yet you heard some of that on the audio of him getting ready to go get it. but even with that proof, she continued to deny any involvement. Jody stuck to her story and said, according to people, if I killed Travis, I would beg for the death pill. Detectives also learned that Jody's grandparents reported a 25 caliber handgun stolen from their home on May 28, 2008. And if we go back, Jody was living with her grandparents at the time. it's just amazing to me how people can deny involvement in something when there is so much evidence

literally this is staring her in the face pictures of herself you are here this is you on his bed at this date and time yeah nope wasn't there or no that's not me i don't even wear pigtails after spending the night in jail jody admitted she was at the house on june 4th she was at the house on june 4th She said she arrived at 3 a.m. She and Travis slept and had sex. They were attacked then by two mass intruders while she was taking pictures of Travis in the shower. One of them ordered her to leave and threatened to kill her family if she ever told anyone. And I don't think it's that much of a shock, but police did not believe this story.

And why would they? Makes no sense. But you know what it does sound like. is someone who had spent the night trying to figure out how to craft a story that included all of the elements that the police had thrown at her. Okay, I've got to admit that I was there. I have to admit why there were photos taken, right, and how he ended up dead. So we did have sex, which I think that part is true. Sure. I did take. this picture of him in the shower, which I do think is true. But then right as I was doing that,

these masked intruders broke in. And the reason I didn't say anything at first is because they told me not to. Or they would kill my family. Yeah. I do think this is a person who, you know, probably set up all night, just trying to figure out if she could craft a story that would satisfy all the elements she needed it too. Jody was extradited on September 5th, 2008, and pleaded not guilty on September 11th. On the 12th, Jody did a jailhouse interview with the Arizona Republic. She denied killing Travis, but wouldn't say how she was going to argue against the DNA and photo evidence. Jody said, God knows I'm innocent. I know I'm innocent. I had nothing to do with his murder. I would never hurt him, he was my friend.

12 days later, on September 24th, Jody spoke to Inside Edition and said publicly for the first time that she was present when Travis was attacked by two intruders. And in, you know, going back to this case receiving a lot of attention, it was because she was on everything.

She was. If you remember, I mean, obviously everybody wanted her on their show. And it seemed like she went on a lot of different shows. she was willing to talk. On October 31st, 2008, the Maricopa County Attorney's Office filed a notice of intent

to seek the death penalty against Jody. Months later on June 23rd, 2009, Jody elaborated more on her statement in an interview with 48 hours. She said Travis was killed during a home invasion, while the two of them were using his new camera. She said, I heard a really loud pop

And the next thing I remember, I was lying next to the bathtub and Travis was screaming. At that point, I sort of was just trying to come around and kind of orientate myself to what was going on. And I looked up and I just, I saw two other individuals in the bathroom and they were both coming towards us. The intruders were a man and woman, dressed in black, armed with a knife and gun. The man pointed a gun at her. and according to Jody, he pulled the trigger and nothing happened with the gun. And so I just grabbed my purse, which was on the floor at that point, and I ran down the stairs and out of there, and I left Travis there. I pushed past him and his gun, and I just didn't look back.

She didn't call the police because, as she said, I was terrified and I was scared from my life. And I think there was a naive belief that I could pretend like it didn't really happen. So in this story, we still have the masked intruders, but it's specifically one man, one woman. Why do you think that is? Well, would that be because of the picture of the woman dragging the body? That was my thought. You know, she has to try to explain a lot of different things. And that is one of them, a picture which appears to be her dragging Travis's body.

Well, I'm going to blame it on this woman intruder. But what's amazing is that, I mean, she Jason borne's this thing, right? The gun jams or whatever. She grabs her purse. She jumps up. She Heismans this intruder runs past him and down the stairs to safety. God. And is able to get away from these, you know, two mass intruders.

Yeah. But because she was worried that they could hurt her family, she didn't want to call the police. But then there, yeah, and then also it was like, well, I think I thought I just could pretend that it didn't really happen. Yeah. Really? I feel like that would be very tough to do.

And then when you're confronted by the police, you're going to act like none of this happened until the last minute. And why give the real details to police when you can give them to 48 hours? I mean, I think that's the real thing. Well, yeah, yeah, there you go. I'll give a little bit to Inside Edition. I'll give a little bit to this show. And I'll keep honing it until I give my, you know, final version to 48 hours.

While waiting trial, Jody made headlines when she won a caroling contest for inmates. And when she told a judge, she wanted to represent herself. I think the bigger headline there was that she wanted to represent herself. Yeah. Yeah, that seems a little scary. On August 16th, 2011, Jody's request to admit. admit letters, allegedly written by Travis was denied. In these letters, Travis claimed he was a pedophile.

The prosecutor told the court that the letters were found to be forgeries. After the ruling, the judge told Jody that she was over her head and reinstated her defense attorneys. I mean, how can she not be over her head? Every person just about who tries to represent themselves with no legal, training whatsoever is over their heads. Yeah. Actually, you could probably say there's some attorneys out there that are over their heads. Yes, absolutely. It's hard enough. If you've passed the bar, Jody's third story about Travis's death was described in court documents submitted as part of her

request, Jody now argued a domestic violence defense saying she was physically and sexually abused by Travis Alexander. She claimed Travis became angry when she dropped his camera and she killed him in self-defense. Later that year, in December, Jody's younger sister, Angela, said Jody lied during her 48 hours interview in that Jody killed Travis in self-defense. Jody's sister wrote, she was not under oath when she spoke on TV and, yes, she lied. But it was because she was so in love with that man. She did not want people to know what a monster he really was.

She wanted everyone to believe that he was as amazing as they thought he was. My sister is innocent of the crime they are accusing her of. She did kill Travis, but it was not in cold blood. It was not for revenge. It was because she was afraid for her life. But does that make sense? Why would she drive to Arizona to be with him if she felt threatened by him? Well, because according to her, the threat didn't come until after she dropped his new camera.

I think that's how she's spinning it. But wouldn't there be a history of that? You would think. You would think. But you could also ask the question, if this is what happened, why wouldn't this be the first story? Exactly. That you told police. Why is this now the third or fourth or whatever version?

Yeah. Why not just stay at the house, call it in and say, this is what happened. And her sister is saying, well, you know, she didn't want to tarnish Travis's memory. When you're fighting for your life, you know, there's, you got to do what you got to do. If you have a true story that would help exonerate you, I think that's a little more important than tarnishing someone's reputation who you say tried to kill you or hurt you. And you had to defend yourself.

Jury selection for Jody's trial started on December 10th, 2012. So, you know, as we wrap up this first part, there's just so much going on. And then there's a lot that we'll cover in part two, the dramatic and lengthy murder trial, including all the evidence against Jody and key witness testimony, plus important events in the years that followed her conviction. So, you know, we didn't want to dive into too much evidence against Jody. let's save that for the trial portion and that'll come in part two. There's a couple of things, though, that I want to talk about as we wrap up.

Number one, you know, it does seem as though Jody had a plan to kill Travis. But it also seems as though Travis let her in and they had sex that day. You know, again, does that go back to her being his kryptonite? I'm not blaming him at all. it just seems as though as much as he kept saying he wanted her out of his life. He couldn't resist her when she showed up. Yeah. He had a hard time saying no.

It does seem that way. Now, people had told him she was dangerous. Did he truly believe that she was going to kill him? I'm sure he did. Or he would not have let her in. Right. But that's it for our part one on Jodi Arias, two coming next week. We got a voicemail Gibbs. You want to hear it? I only picked one because I knew

this episode was going to be a little bit long. Gosh. Oh my gosh. You're killing me this week. Killing me. It's not funny, but it's so funny. The Wendy, what's your face? Davidson thing. At the beginning, Mike is talking about how he would go to this place called Graham Central Station. And that's where she and her husband met. And I thought, wow, Graham Central Station. Because you're saying it's like Graham, it's G-R-A-H-M. And so I'm like Graham Central Station that is such a clever name for an ice cream shop. And then later in the episodes you're talking about it

being a danceball, so that's awkward. But I realized that locally we have a little coffee place and makes some ice cream, and they have an ice cream flavor named Graham Central Station. That's really good. So thanks for that. I'm very hungry now for ice cream. And also I'll have to send you some coffee.

Also, sorry about the fan in the background. You're my shower podcast. And so stay safe and keep your own time picking. Don't go to date again. So are you saying that Gibby and I are in the bathroom with you? Sounds like it. Or actually in the shower. We need a good shower.

I do not want to shower with you. That is not on my agenda. Again? Again. Ever. That one time? For the first time or ever or the last time? No, but we appreciate the voice mo.

We do. We had no mailbag this week, Gibbs. So that's it for another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike, and give you. Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.