True Crime All The Time - Jodi Arias Part 2

Episode Date: June 24, 2024

Jodi Arias became infamous after she murdered her ex-boyfriend Travis Alexander in June 2008. Her 2013 trial was a media circus. Jodi argued that she killed Travis in self-defense. They had a complicated relationship. There was a whirlwind romance, and then Travis tried to distance himself. But, as some friends described it, Jodi was his kryptonite.Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss Jodi Arias and the murder of Travis Alexander. In the second and last part of the Jodi Arias episodes, we’ll cover the trial of Jodi Arias and dive into the evidence against her. Jodi came up with a number of different stories of what happened. She and her defense team tried to paint Travis as a horrible individual. But would the jury buy it?You can support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 389 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. How are you? Hey, I'm doing good about you. I'm doing very well. My wife and I got a new dog. I know. She was sitting in my chair.

I was like, what's up with this? I showed her off on the video on Patreon, but another little Maltese. You know, we had a, we have a Maltese now. And so we wanted another one. We really like them. Yeah. She's a cutie. Her name is Ivy.

Not poison either. No, not poison. She is very, very sweet. Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shoutouts. We had Hayden Bushnell. What's going on, Hayden? Mountain. Hey, Mountain.

James Eddinger. Well, thank you, James. Ruby Perez. There's Perez. Miguel Salas. What's going on, Salas? Dana Allison. Hey, Dana.

Jesse Dunavant. Well, thank you. Donalant. KMCC. What's up, KMCC. Melissa Mitchell. Hey Melissa. And last but not least, Sarah Thrasher. Man, she's a thrasher. Thrasher. And then if we go back into the vault, this week we selected Amy. What's going on, Amy? Yeah. Thanks for all the new support, to continued support on Patreon. We also had a great PayPal donation from Elizabeth Horn. Hey, thanks to Elizabeth. Yeah. Thanks to everyone. So Gibbs, right now we have an episode out on Unsolved where we're talking about this guy named James Barrier, also known as, uh,

Buffalo gym. He was kind of like a little celebrity in Las Vegas. Yeah. But he got into a feud over a strip club and there's mafia ties. There's all kinds of stuff wrapped up into this case. Very interesting. Yes, it really, really is. All right, buddy, are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time?

I am ready. We are jam packed as we get into part two and finish up this story on Jody area. is. In part one, we covered the early lives of Jody and Travis Alexander, how they met, and their tumultuous relationship that ended with Travis being murdered inside his own home. In part two, we'll cover the dramatic and lengthy murder trial, including all the evidence against Jody, key witness testimony, and important events in the years that followed her conviction. So Jody was arrested, right? We played a little bit of, you know, her interrogation. It was lengthy. There's a ton of audio out there. Jury selection was completed on

December 20th, 2012. And opening arguments began on January 2nd, 2013. And we talked about it in the first episode, but this was a case that the media latched onto. It had a lot of salacious aspects to it, right? Sex, murder. People, really wanted to know what happened in this murder of Travis Alexander and what role Jody played. Prosecutor Juan Martinez listed the different stories. Jody told law enforcement before she settled on a self-defense claim. And we kind of detailed out some of those. Martinez also described the three fatal wounds. Travis suffered. The gunshot wound to the head, the stab wound to the heart in the cut across his throat.

Travis had defensive wounds on his hands, indicating that he fought back as he was being attacked. Those are some pretty severe injuries, if you think about it. Oh, yeah, absolutely. And then, you know, to think about the person inflicting those three specifically, you're firing a gun,

you are stabbing someone in their heart, and then you're slicing their throat. Visually, that is rough. I mean, it sounds like an assassin to me. Yeah. Or some kind of a damn video game. Yeah. The prosecution portrayed Travis as a devout Mormon and a good man.

They described Jody as a jealous woman who killed Travis when he tried to end their relationship. And I do think, you know, it's interesting to kind of dissect how. people are painted, right? In trials, Travis was this great guy, you know, very religious. Jody's the jealous woman. Now, you could say all of that is true, but nobody is all good. No. And nobody is all bad. Really, no matter how you try to portray them, people have their good points and they have their faults. And I think we'll see. I mean, Travis had some fault. It wasn't just like everybody else.

Yeah, yeah. And what some people perceive as false, maybe others won't. Yes. But I think by and large, he was a good guy, you know, overall. But I think a lot of people, you know, they try to make everything so black and white. And I think there's a lot of gray area when it comes to people. Oh, for sure. Defense attorney Jennifer Wilmot acknowledged that Jody killed Travis saying per the East Valley Tribune.

Jody Arias killed Travis Alexander. There's no question about it. The million dollar question is what would have forced her to do it? She said Jody acted in self-defense after Travis allegedly lunged at her in a fit of rage. Wormott told the jury that Jody would have been killed if she did not defend herself. Okay, well, that's kind of the basis of a self-defense claim. Yeah, self-defense 101. I had to do what I did.

or I would have been the one who ended up dead. Yeah. So I shot him in the head, stabbed him in his heart, and then slit his throat. Doesn't sound right when he say it that way, does it? No. From a self-defense angle.

The defense characterized Travis as violent and abusive. Wilmot alleged that Travis pressured Jody into having sex with him. According to the defense, Travis presented himself as a devout. voted member of the LDS church. But in secret, he was obsessed with sex. Jody was his dirty little secret.

So, you know, let's break that down a little bit. I think, you know, obsessed is a very, very strong word. Sure is. But, you know, let's be honest, most 20-year-old guys are a little obsessed with sex. It's not out of ordinary. No, the hormones are raging, you know, all of that stuff. And you got to remember, too. I mean, they have been fairly active up to this point.

Sexually? Yeah. Yeah. And then. But for me, that's where the pressuring comes in. Right. You know, pressuring to have sex. Well, then you're going to have to answer the question.

Why did she come back so many times? Yeah. And why was she on the bed taking those provocative photos? Travis rarely acknowledged Jody in public and became increasingly sexually demanding and physically and verbally abusive. Now, you can talk about the sex part all you want. To me, the crux of the self-defense case would come down to, you know, the verbally and really more so physically abusive part of the allegations.

On January 3rd, Detective Esteban Flores, who investigated the crime scene, testified about his phone conversation with Jody. on June 10th, 2008. During their conversation, she mentioned that she'd heard there was a lot of blood at the crime scene. Jody also asked what type of weapon was used, but Detective Flores was unable to discuss that with her.

And we did kind of talk about this a little bit in episode one. We found it strange, right? That she's going to call up to the police and start asking all of these questions. Yes, you find out that Travis has been killed, you're shocked. But is that one of the first things that would pop? I wonder what type of weapon was used.

How much blood was there? Yeah, those are strange. According to Huff Post, when asked about her relationship with Travis, Jody told the detective, we dated for like five months, and we broke up and actually did not see each other for quite a bit. We tried to remain friends, more like buddies. We were intimate, but I would not. not say romantic as far as a relationship goes.

Oh, so friends with benefits. I would say so. I have a lot of buddies. We're not doing some of the things that these two individuals were doing. You and I are buddies. I'm glad that's where it stops. Jody said they broke up because she suspected Travis was cheating on her and couldn't trust She made a point to say that Travis became upset real easily.

And I think it's pretty easy to see that a big part of this trial on the part of the defense has to be to break down the character of Travis Alexander. Well, that has to be one of their biggest goals. Yeah, for a jury to believe that Jody Arias was in fear for her life. Well, Travis Alexander has to be a bad guy. during the conversation Jody denied the allegation that she hacked into Travis's email and she was dismissive when told that Travis's friends thought she hung around when she wasn't wanted. Jody was asked who would want to hurt Travis.

She said Travis was strong and she couldn't understand how someone could overpower him. So this is all taking place, right, in an earlier conversation with Detective Flores. as during cross-examination, Detective Flores acknowledged that he knew Travis sent emails to Jody, calling her a slut and a whore. Flores read a Facebook message from Travis to Jody where he said, I was nothing more than a dildo with a heartbeat for you. Wow. I don't think I've ever heard that saying before in my life.

That's a second thing I've learned from this episode. Mouth Hug was the first. Oh, mouth hug, yeah. So again, some of this stuff doesn't make Travis look great. No, but that's what they want. Yes. But does it mean he was physically abusive? Does it mean he was a danger at any point to Jody area?

You could say he was very insensitive with some of these things that he's saying. Oh, absolutely. Fingerprint examiner Heather Connor testified that a team of investigators found clothing and a broken digital camera. inside the washing machine in Travis's house. The clothing in a towel appeared to have bleach stains. The jury viewed photos of the crime scene, including a photo of a bloody handprint on a wall. This handprint was the one that contained a mixture of Travis and Jody's DNA.

Dr. Kevin Horn from the Maricopa County Medical Examiner's Office testified that Travis was stabbed 27 times, shot with a 25 caliber gun and nearly decapitated by a cut to the throat, which cut his voice box in arteries. Very forceful. Yeah, I mean, that's a very serious slash. It sounds like pretty much ear to ear cutting both arteries and his voice box. Sounds like somebody very angry.

He testified that it was highly unlikely. Travis could have so many defensive wounds if he was shot in the head first. He had multiple self-defense wounds to his palms and fingers. And that does make sense. You get shot in your head. It's going to be tough to put up much of a fight. If any. If any, because a lot of times you're going to be dead right away.

But even if you're not, more than likely you're going to be incapacitated to some degree. But if somebody's coming after you and they're stabbing you, they're slashing you, where you're going, you're going to throw your hands up. You're going to defend yourself. Right. It was impossible to determine if Travis was dead before he was shot because of decomposition. His body was starting to mummify by the time he was found. His cause of death was excessive blood loss.

So, I mean, just another kind of macabre visual imagery. Yeah. Very disturbing. To think, to think that, you know, his body. he was starting to mummify. In my head, I'm trying to figure out, did if you shot? Did if. Oh, yeah, yeah.

If she shot him first, why was there a need to stab and slice instead of just shoot another round? Yeah. Now, again, we're talking about a 25 caliber. Right. Not the most powerful, but I think what this medical examiner is theorizing is that the stabs and the cuts and all that came. first and then the shot came

at the end. Firearms examiner Elizabeth Northcut testified that she was not able to match the 25 caliber cartridge casing at the crime scene to the bullet removed from Travis's cheek because the murder weapon was not recovered. Ryan Burns, whom Jody visited in Utah,

the day after Travis was killed, testified on January 9. As we talked about in part 1, Jody arrived a day later than unexpected. On June 5th, she told Ryan she got lost and stopped to rest. He noticed that Jody dyed her hair and that she also had cuts on her hands as well as bandages on some of her finger. Jody told him she cut her finger while working at a Margaritaville restaurant. That sounds believable. Yeah. I mean, if I think she even said cut it on a glass or something like

that. But here's the thing that, you know, I don't know that everybody thinks about. If you're up close and personal with a knife, pretty easy to cut your own hands. Yeah, I think it happens a lot for some people. I've sliced myself a few times. Doing some up close and personal knife work. Yes. Okay. But that is one thing that I like about the K bar. The K bar does have a pretty good size guard on it. It does. But not all knives have that big of a guard, your hand can slip down and just, you know, you could nick your other hand, especially if somebody's fighting you. Oh, of course. The prosecution asked Ryan about Jody's strength. Per Huff Post, he testified she was fit and had abs and said, she's a lot stronger than she looks. And, you know, this is a kind of a fascinating part of it, right? Because you have, you have,

this woman Jody Arias who by looking at her, she's not too big. You could see how maybe a jury would have a thought in their mind. How could this thin little woman do all of this to this big guy, Travis Alexander? So it's important, you know, to get some people up there and say, she was a lot stronger than she looked or stronger than you might think. And there are people like that. Well, size doesn't always necessarily equate to strength. You can have big guys who are not that strong. You can have, you know, guys who weigh 150 pounds that are just wiry, unbelievably strong.

There really is no rhyme or reason behind it. And then you've got farm strong. Oh, man. Which is just a whole different category all to itself. yeah, that's, watch out for those, for those individuals. Detective Esteban Flores was called back to the stand to discuss a recorded phone interview from June 25th, 2008. Jody spoke about her trip to Utah on June 5th. She said she slept in her car. Detective Flores told her that this was dangerous and she needed protection, but Jody said that

she was afraid of guns. Well, she wasn't that afraid of guns. It didn't appear. right as though she was but i think they are making a big deal about this trip to utah right you're a whole day late which conveniently kind of includes the window where this murder would have taken play right and so you have this what to me sounds like a very strange scenario that number one you got lost people do get lost i get that but then you're just going to sleep in your car or out in the middle of nowhere. I don't know. But you know, she, she admitted that she killed him. She said, yep, I did it self-defense. But they have to kind of walk you down this path to show that you didn't do it in self-defense, that this was premeditated. Well, and also to expose all the lies that came

before the self-defense claim. Because, you know, you want to show to the jury that this is not a person you can really trust. Yeah. Because she's already given two, three, four, five different version of events. Yeah, why didn't she come out of the gate saying it was self-defense? On January 10, 2013, Detective Nathaniel Mendez, from Siskiy County, California, testified that there is no margarita restaurant in Wyrka. This suggested that Jody Lye to Ryan Burns when she explained how she cut her hand. Well, you know, one of the most important.

things to learn when you do an alibi is make sure that the place actually exists that you're talking about or you're saying you got we're at got cut at yeah if you're going to include it you better make sure it exists yeah mendes testified that he found receipts in jody's bedroom that showed she rented a car in redding on june second 2008 and returned it six days later she put over 2,800 miles on the car. That's a lot of driving. And it's obvious why they're doing that. They want to prove that these miles would put her in Arizona.

Even though, to your point, she's admitting to the murder and to the fact that she was there now. But you're getting inside of her head, right? Yes. You can see how deceitful she's being. After a forensic scientist testified about blood spatter at the scene, Detective Esteban Flores returned to the stand once again and testified about a conversation he had with Jody

where she acknowledged she had Travis's ATM pen and the security code for his garage. She was able to enter his home anytime she wanted. During cross-examination, Flores acknowledged that his previous testimony at an August 2009 hearing was incorrect. He said that Travis was shot before he was stabbed. On January 16, 2013, the jury watched Jody's interrogation video where she denied killing Travis.

As quoted by the East Valley Tribune, Jody said, I don't think I could stab him. I think I would have to shoot him until he was dead if that were my intentions. But I would have to wear gloves. If I had it in me to kill him, the least I could have done was make it as humane as possible. that's the strangest logic that I've ever heard. Why would you even say that? It's going back to that. I didn't do it, but if I was going to do it,

I would have done it this way. Yeah. That makes no sense. You just stick with I didn't do it. No reason to open it up any more than that. No, it seems way out of left field to me. On January 29th, Nancy Grace reported that Jody approached prosecutors two years before the trial offering to plead guilty to second-degree murder.

The state rejected her offer. Clearly they felt they had a strong case. Yeah, I think they felt pretty good about their case. Jody's ex-boyfriend, Daryl Brewer, testified that Jody borrowed two five-gallon gas cans from him the day before she drove to Arizona. Jody called him in May 2008, asking to borrow the cans, but she wouldn't explain why. She called two more times and showed up at his house in June of that year. She said she was going to visit friends in California and Arizona. Jody never returned the gas cans.

Strange requests. And I think if someone would ask me today, if they can borrow a couple of gas cans, I'd be like, no. Whatever you're getting ready to do. I don't want to be a part of it. Exactly. Now, you can look at this as kind of mundane testimony, but again, what is it really do. It leads you into the premeditation aspect of this crime. I mean, you're just really driving at home. Right. If you're just planning to go see him, why does it need to be such a secret?

Why do you need the gas cans? Why can't you leave a paper trail? Right. You go see him and then you go to Utah. The only reason you do it is because at the end of the day, you don't want anyone to know that you've even Ben to Travis's house. You're avoiding the paper trail, avoiding the cameras, all that. The prosecution presented receipts from Jody's trip to Mace, Arizona. The night before the trip, she purchased 10 gallons of gas at one gas station and then another 10 gallons at a different gas station. Jody brought the gas cans to fill up her car on the way to Arizona, which they said showed premeditation.

And just that fact alone. Why would you drive to two different gas stations? There's no reason to. No, just fill them up. They cash. But you don't want someone to know that you got 20 gallons. No. You want them to think you only got 10.

So you can see all the things she was thinking about ahead of this trip to Arizona. Jodi Arias began her testimony on February 4, 2013. She was on the standgives for 18 days. That's a long time. That is. I don't know how many people testify, you know, for that many days. Jody claimed that Travis was physically and emotionally abusive and that he was violent on the day he died. She admitted to killing Travis during her first day of testimony.

According to ABC, defense attorney Kirk Nirmie asked, did you kill Travis Alexander? Jody said, yes. She explained the simple answer. answer is that he attacked me and I defended myself. Jody testified that she initially lied about being at the crime scene because she planned to end her life. She said per Fox News, at the time, I had plans to commit suicide. So I was extremely confident that no jury would convict me because I didn't expect any of you to be here. I planned to be dead. I don't know if that really makes sense to me. Well, I'm assuming she's saying that she planned to end her life after the

initial talk with police. Therefore, she could say anything she wanted. It wasn't going to make any difference. It was never going to come back to bite her. But obviously we know she didn't. Jody told the court her parents abused her as a child. She claimed they beat her with belts and wooden spoons and later shoved her into furniture and slapped her in the face for offenses such as sneaking out. She also testified about being involved in an abusive relationship. When she was a teenager, her boyfriend tried into his life. After she broke up with him, they got back together and he threatened to strangle her and kill her family. Well, if that's all true, it's very terrible. It is terrible. We don't know the truthfulness of all of it, but

true or not, you can see what she's trying to do. Sure, she's trying to set it up so the jury can see why she reacted the way she did with Travis. She had a history of being abused and therefore when he became violent, she acted. During her second day of testimony, Jody said that Travis had a Bill Clinton view of sex. I don't even know what that means. That he liked interns or... I think it depends on how you define the word, view. Well, you know, Bill Clinton is kind of viewed as having been a little promiscuous.

So I think that's what she's getting at. Yes. She explained that Travis got around the church's teachings on chastity by engaging in oral and anal sex, which were not technically against the rules. We're skirting a very fine line here, I think. Yeah, that's, you know, to the rulemaker. I think maybe you missed a big thing here when you made that initial ruling. It seems to go back to the theory of if you're not cheating, you're not really trying. Yeah. If you're not breaking the rules, you're not really trying to win. And I think this is where the Bill Clinton comparison comes in because per ABC, she told the court,

it seemed like Travis kind of had a Bill Clinton version of sex, where oral and anal sex were also sex to me, but not for him. You know, back to your kind of joke, it depends on your definition of the word sex. Yeah. Now the whole mouth hug thing's coming around. Yes. I think it's making a little bit more sense. Jody testified that hours after she was baptized, Travis forced her to have anal sex. She said, it's not something I expected to happen.

And I can't say I wanted it to, but I didn't stop him. She believed Travis was using her for sex. and had no interest in an emotional connection, which made her feel like a prostitute. You know, and some of this may be true. Some of it not, right? Travis can defend himself. No, he's not here to give his side of the story. But I think the one thing that you would have to explain if you're Jody areas is if all this is true,

why did you keep going back to Travis's house essentially for, sex after the relationship ended. I mean, even showing up unannounced. You know, you had the opportunity to not to go, but you chose to go. Right. I think you're going to have to explain that. On February 11th, Jody testified that Travis once beat her, pushed her to the ground, kicked her in the ribs, and broke her finger. During an argument, she did not seek treatment because she didn't want the police to get involved. Jody also claimed that in January 2008, she walked. She walked walked in on Travis masturbating to photos of young boys. He allegedly confessed to being attracted to children.

He convinced her to have sex with him, to cure him of his deviant urges. So, I mean, obviously, she's really kind of laying the wood to Travis Alexander here. Yeah, I mean, she's trying to put him in a negative light of course his character. We don't know if what she's saying is even true. No, that's up to the jury because there's only two people who could possibly know if these things are true. And that's Jody, who's telling all of these things. The other is Travis who's dead. And I just think if a woman walked in on a man doing that, I would think majority of the women would be like, I'm out.

That's a deal. That's an absolute deal breaker. Yeah. You need to get some help. But that was true. Jody testified that Travis once sent her a package that contained a pair of children's underwear, which she said she threw away. One of the most shocking moments of the trial occurred on February 12, 2013,

when a recorded phone sex conversation between Jody and Travis was played in court. During the recording, they discussed zip tying Jody to a tree, pornography, and rape. So it sounds like they were into role play. Well, I think if Jody's giving her opinion, Travis is into all of this stuff, right? Because this was a part of the defense's effort to portray Travis as a sexual deviant. Now, there are a lot of things in the realm of sex that, you know, a lot of people would say, well, I'm not into that. I don't want any part of that.

But what have you and I always talked about, which is if you're not hurting anyone else, And you're not breaking any laws. What two people decide to do together. That's up to them. Yeah, for sure. Behind closed doors, as long as they both agree to it, consent. And they're not hurting anyone. It's not illegal, anything like that.

According to ABC, Travis said during the conversation, you're pretty. You're so attractive. I've never seen you look bad in my life. There are times when you've looked miserable and I've still like, raped you. Kind of strange thing to say. Yeah, it is. There's no way around it. After Jody orgasmed, Travis told her that she sounded like a little girl, which he thought was hot. That is strange. It is. There's no way around it. But back up just a little bit. Clearly, Jody enjoyed the conversation. Why? Because she orgasmed? Yeah. Okay. But you take this recorded

conversation. And it's real. It happened, right? Because there's a recording of it. what does it mean? Is it icky? Yeah. I mean, there are some things in here that don't sound great. But does it mean that Travis was a pedophile? I would say no. It's not evidence. It's not proof. No. On February 13th, Jody testified that Travis became increasingly sexually aggressive and violent in the weeks leading up to his death. She read text messages where Travis called her a sex late and described his aggressive sexual fantasies. Now, the keyword there might be fantasy. A lot of people have some pretty far out fantasies that maybe they would never act on. Yeah, I know you've missing to me the pudding thing. And I just, you know, you shut that down real quick. Yeah, yeah. I don't want to really

hear the details of that, but whatever, do your thing. One message from Travis said per ABC, you are the ultimate slut in bed. When it's done, the intensity will make your body feel like you have been raped. You'll rejoice in being a whore that sole purpose in life is to be mine, to have animalistic sex with me and to please me in any way I desire. It's just really strange on how he brings the word raping to... Yeah, he does use that word quite a bit. Like it's a good thing. Yeah, it's definitely for me. I feel it's uncomfortable. Yes. The way he's using that word is, is very strange. Jody claimed that Travis forced her to end friendships with male and female friends

in 2007. He called her a whore when she was friendly with other men and lost his temper over the phone and in person. She distanced herself because she was tired of his aggressive, authoritative behavior. She moved away and wrote an email telling him she was not comfortable with their secret relationship and wanted to cool it. On the day she moved back to California, Travis gave her a rude gesture with both hands. I'm assuming that means he gave her the birth. I'm guessing. In May 2008, Jody wrote an email to Travis saying she was tired of keeping their relationship

a secret. She loved him and would always be his friend, but she was going to be proactive and remove herself from the list of people. You have to worry about. Travis responded with angry messages and texts. On February 20th, Jody described what happened on June 4th, 2000. She said she accidentally dropped Travis's new camera while taking photos of him in the bathroom, which caused him to lose his temper. According to her, Travis came at her like a linebacker and slammed her to the floor. She ran to his closet. But he came after her. She grabbed a gun from the closet shelf and ran.

Travis went after her again. Jody testified, he was angry at me and he wasn't going to stop. It was like mortal terror. She said the gun went off during their fight. Jody said, I pointed it at him with both of my hands. I thought that would stop him, but he just kept running. He got like a lineback. He got low and grabbed my waist. And as he was lunging at me, the gun went off. I didn't mean to shoot. I didn't even think I was holding the trigger. She admitted she cleaned the crime scene, dumped the gun, and tried to establish an alibi. She said, she couldn't imagine calling 911 because she was scared. Jody continued, I have no memory of stabbing him. I remember dropping the knife and it clinked on the tile. And I just remember screaming. I don't remember anything after that. So, I mean, I think you can visualize the scene,

right, that Jody is trying to paint. He comes at me like a linebacker. Yeah. Even though I'm holding the gun pointed at him. But she says the gun, you know, went off as he was lunging at me. She didn't mean for it to. She didn't even know she pulled the trigger. Well, clearly he wasn't threatened by her having a gun if that's how it actually happened because he still continued to move towards her. Yes.

And she's saying, look, I didn't even know I pulled the trigger. So I had no attentions to use the gun. But then she says, you know, she did all this stuff after the fact. and didn't call 911 or anything like that because she was scared. So again, you just have to put yourself in the mind of a juror. You know, how believable is some of this stuff, not just on its own, but you have to factor in all of the other things, right, that we know the things that come out during the trial.

Before trial, Jody told the police that Travis was conscious after she shot him and crawled around and was stabbed. according to the East Valley Tribune. And it's probably where the detective, you know, who testified earlier on, made the statement that he was shot first. I would say it was probably based on something that Jody said to him. Yeah. At trial, she said she recalled putting a knife in the dishwasher and disposing of the gun in the

desert during the drive to Utah. Does that make any sense? I mean, if you're going to dispose of weapons, why not just take them both? and toss them in the desert. Why put a knife in a dishwasher? Sure. Well, the only thing I could think of is you don't want to have a knife that's missing. That's the only thing.

Make sure the whole complete sets there. Yes, because if not, somebody's going to think that was the murder weapon. Sources noted that none of Jody's claims, that she was physically abused, that Travis owned a gun, or that Travis was. attracted to children. We're supported by witnesses or evidence presented at trial. And I think that's an important statement to make. You can say whatever you want if you're Jody. Because the person who could refute all of that stuff is the person you shot, stabbed to death. They're not there. No. But when there's no corroboration whatsoever of any of it, by other means, what's the job? What's the

jury left with your word and that's it and i don't think that's really where you want to be if you're jody aries because as the jury you know how good is your word if your whole defense is hinging on that you got to be a little worried i sure you do in her testimony jody said she lied because she was ashamed of killing travis and she didn't want details of their sex life to be revealed jody agreed that she called the police and Travis's friends. After his body was found, to figure out what the police knew. Jody read excerpts from her journal.

After prosecutor Juan Martinez pointed out that she never wrote about being abused by Travis or the incident where she allegedly saw Travis masturbating to pictures of young boys. According to ABC, Jody wrote in her journal at one point, I just wish I could die. I wish that suicide was a way out, but it is no.

escape. I wouldn't feel any more pain. Under questioning by her attorney, Jody explained why she did not write about the incident involving the photo saying per the East Valley Tribune, that's exactly the opposite of things I would want to note. I wouldn't want to remember that. It was very shocking. And I guess for me, that comes down to, you know, is she a person that wrote about everything in her journal, detailed, you know, almost every aspect of her life. And if she did, why would she leave that part out? Again, I just think if that was true, majority of women would not continue to see him. Have any type of relationship.

Yeah. Yeah, I agree with you. She read from an entry she claimed she wrote days after seeing this, it read, It still remains that I cannot marry him. I cannot quite put my finger on it. but something is just off with that boy. Something is just off. Well, what about all these very, very specific things?

Yeah. That's what you put your finger on. Jody said this was her indirect way of referring to his issues. She also alleged that she didn't document negative events in their relationship because Travis read her journal and got angry. On March 14, 2013, defense expert Richard Samuels, testified that Jody suffered from PTSD and acute memory loss, which is a common occurrence after highly stressful events.

Samuel said that individuals in traumatic settings have foggy memories because they're focused on survival. When a person is in a stressful situation, their body prepares them to fend off harm and the body releases hormones that block the brain's ability to retain memories. And I can completely understand that. I can understand him testifying to that. Because no matter how this went down, whether it was flat out murder or a self-defense act, it would still be a highly stressful event.

Either way, he's also talking about other types of stressful events. On March 26th, prosecutor Juan Martinez informed the jury that Jody had a history. that Jody had a history of assaulting her mother, which contradicted her earlier testimony about her allegedly abusive childhood. So he's trying to flip it and say, no, she wasn't abused. She was the abuser. During his testimony,

Richard Samuels confirmed that Jody hit her mother during arguments. And that's a defense witness. This is not how you want things to go. No, but the guy's being honest, right? In Arizona, jurors have the right to submit written questions to witnesses. Jurors asked Samuels, how can we be certain that your assessment of Ms. Arias is not based on her life? Samuels replied that he believed Jody met the criteria for a PTSD diagnosis. He was asked if he was certain.

Jody was telling the truth about the day of the murder. Samuel said he was not 100% certain. But how could he be? No, how could anybody be? I mean, he's giving or making a diagnosis on the information that he has available. Now, undoubtedly, a lot of that information is coming from Jody. On March 27th, domestic violence expert Alice LaViolette testified for the defense. She spoke in generalities and did not say whether she met with Jody.

She said that most victims don't tell anyone about the abuse because they are ashamed. Fattered women often stay with their partners out of hope and fear. And we know that. We've heard about this. That's absolutely true. The defense introduced statements showing that Travis's friends tried to warn Jody that he was an abusive womanizer, according to the Arizona Republic. Defense attorney Jennifer Wilmot asked Alice LaViolette to read emails between Travis

and his friends, Chris and Sky Hughes. The emails were not shown to the jury. and La Vialette was only allowed to characterize the content of the email. One email contained the subject. You crossed the line. In it, Travis complained that to Hughes's discouraged Jody from pursuing him because he was abusive to women. He called Jody a skank and said he only saw her in secret.

Okay, now this is interesting testimony. It is. Because it does allude to the fact that even his own friends potentially were saying he was an abusive womanizer. That aids her defense. According to the Arizona Republic, the jury did not hear about a 2011 defense filing that detailed the contents of the emails. In one email, Chris Hugh said he believed Jody would be Travis's next victim in that he was

playing her. Okay, now you can take that a bunch of different way. Next victim, meaning he's using this woman just for sex. and then he's going to, you know, cast her aside. Or you can take it to mean that she's truly going to be a victim in the sense of being abused and, you know, things like that. According to Travis allegedly replied with, I am a bit of a sociopath. At this point in the trial, the defense accused the prosecutor of misconduct.

Jurors were asked if they saw Juan Martinez signing autographs and posing outages. and posing outside the courthouse. I think that just, you know, kind of really goes to the heart of what a media circus this was. And this was a big circus. You know, in these major, major trials, you know, the attorneys kind of become celebrities to the point where, you know, this guy, I guess, was signing autographs and things like that. Now, is that prosecutorial misconduct? I have no idea.

But it's strange. Yeah, I think for a prosecutor to be signing autographs in the middle of a trial. Yeah, during the trial. I mean, we've seen years later. Oh, famous attorneys or attorneys connected with famous cases. Sure. On April 2nd, 2013, a juror was dismissed for making biased statements. Two more jurors were later released during the trial.

During cross-examination, Alice LaViolette said Jody and Travis had a violent. volatile relationship. He dated multiple women, used graphic language during sexual encounters, and called Jody derogatory names. I don't think any of that is untrue. Yeah, based on everything we've learned at this point. I think their relationship was very volatile. I do think Travis was dating a number of women. And it was proven in text messages that he called her derogatory names. Juan Martinez asked La Violette how she knew Jody wasn't lying. She said she found Jody to be credible. In April, the prosecution called on expert witness Janine DeMarte, who testified that Jody

has borderline personality disorder. The defense argued that Jody underwent several tests that indicated she was a battered woman with PTSD. De Marte testified about her interpretation of those tests. she did not believe Jody was abused or was suffering from PTSD. Instead, the test she administered indicated Jody had borderline personality disorder. So again, this is not uncommon, right, to have experts on each side saying different things. Yeah, it's pretty normal for them to have conflicting testimony.

She said she found several traits of borderline personality. order in her evaluation, including efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment, unstable and intense relationships, identity disturbance, suicidal behavior, effective instability, chronic feelings of emptiness, and inappropriate intense anger. On May 1st, 2013, the defense called a final expert witness, psychologist Robert Gaffner, who testified that Jody could be suffering from both PTSD and borderline personality disorder. Jody's test results pointed towards anxiety stemming from trauma. So that's pretty interesting because this final expert is kind of combating the prosecutions

expert by saying, well, she could have both, right? The prior defense experts could be correct, but this lady could also be correct. It doesn't have to be one of the other. Right, which again helps out Jody's defense case. Closing arguments started on May 2nd, 2013. The prosecution portrayed Jody as a manipulative liar who stalked Travis before killing him and that she planned out the attack. The defense asked the jury to be impartial, even if they didn't like Jody.

And I think that's something that you do hear from the defense quite a lot, right? You might not like this person. You might not like the things that they've said. You might not like the way that they, you know, portray themselves. But you have to separate that out from the evidence. That comes up quite a bit. The case went to the jury on May 3rd, 2013. Jurors were allowed to consider verdicts of second degree murder and manslaughter in

addition to first degree murder. So there's quite a number of options there. But on May 8th, 2013, the jury found Jody guilty of first degree murder. Clearly, they saw past all the allegations made by the defense team. Well, and I think there's no doubt that they viewed Jody's actions as premeditation, right? Not reacting in the moment to protect herself. That in advance, through all the things she did, it showed that she went there to kill Travis,

Alexander. During the upcoming penalty phase, the prosecution plan to argue that the murder was committed in an especially cruel, heinous, and depraved manner, which could justify capital punishment. Minutes after she was convicted, Jody spoke to Fox affiliate KSAZ, saying longevity runs in my family. And I don't want to spend the rest of my natural life in one place. I believe death is the ultimate freedom and I'd rather have my freedom as soon as I can get it. So she's saying, I'd rather be dead. Yeah, and we've heard that from a lot of people convicted of murder very early on. Now, many of those individuals change their mind as the years roll on.

Like, I might have been a little hasty in saying, just go ahead and kill me as soon as possible. I think I'd just rather spend, you know, the rest of my life. here in jail a lot. Yeah, crocheting my blanket. On May 15, 2013, the jury found Jody eligible for the death penalty. However, this was not an official decision. This completed the aggravation phase of the trial. Jurors now had to go through the penalty phase.

Jody's defense argued that her mental illness was not an excuse for what she did, but it was also a reason for mercy. And to me, the different phases of the trial are pretty fascinating. You know, in the first phase, you're trying to get your client either off completely from the charges or at the very least get, you know, the lesser of all convictions. But then once the conviction occurs, you're switching to, okay, how do I mitigate this person's sentence? And if the death penalty is on the table, you're definitely trying to get out from under that. Absolutely.

On May 21st, Jody spoke to the jury and pleaded for her life. She said she lacked perspective when she made statements about the death penalty immediately after her conviction. As we just talked about it. Well, I mean, you're in the heat of the moment. You're upset, obviously. I would assume if you've just been convicted of first-degree murder. anybody would be, you know, angry, scared, all these emotions would be running through you. You're liable to say anything.

I was just joking about me wanting to be dead. Thank you. Yeah. I mean, you know, it didn't take long. It didn't take five, ten years for her to change her opinion. USA Today reported that Jody told the jury, I cannot in good conscience ask you to sentence me to death because of them. She pointed at her family and continued. I think death is tantamount to suicide.

Either way, I will spend the rest of my life in prison. It will either be shortened or not. If it's shortened, the people who will be hurt is my family. I am asking, please, please, don't do that to them. Jody told the jury she planned to sell clothing and donate all proceeds to victims of domestic abuse. She added, I loved Travis. And I looked up to him. At one point, he was the world to me.

This is the worst mistake of my life. It's the worst thing I've ever done. To this day, I can hardly believe that I was capable of such violence, but I know that I was. And for that, I'm going to be sorry for the rest of my life, probably longer. I'm not, okay, I'm not sure how that's possible, but meaning in, in heaven, she's going to be sorry. That must be what she's talking about. Yeah, I think it, she thinks it's going to follow her to the next, to the, to the, to the, wherever she goes.

But here's my question. Going back to this, you know, it doesn't hurt me to be put to death. It hurts my family. I'm going to sell this clothing and donate it to, you know, domestic abuse victims.

Is this Jody using her skills, which we know she had, to further manipulate people? Possible? Possible. You never know, right? With what these individuals say.

It's kind of hard to give her the benefit of the doubt. I think it's hard for me to give a lot of these killers the benefit of the doubt because of what we know they've done. So after the fact, is it more likely that they're going to say anything and everything or whatever they believe is going to help them out the most? And I think more often than not, that's probably true. They're trying to save their life. On May 23, 2013, the judge announced a mistrial in the penalty phase. Under Arizona law, a new jury would be required to hear the penalty phase again. In an interview on May 24th, jury foreman William Zervaco said it was unfair for them to decide between life and death.

He said the hardest part of the trial was hearing from Travis's family. Jurors struggled in the deliberation room because of their personal belief. Jody's young age and her lack of criminal record. Man, I can tell you, I think it would be hard for many people. They would struggle with this life and death decision. You are literally voting to put someone to death. Yeah, and I think each year it gets harder as we learn more and more things about wrongful convictions. Oh, well, yeah, I didn't even think about that.

That does make it tougher as well. On May 29, 2013, the Arizona Supreme Court declined to hear an appeal on whether the judge improperly allowed prosecutors to seek the death penalty. The appeal was filed in the middle of Jody's trial. Over a year later, in October 2014, the new jury was seated and sworn in for the retrial of the penalty phase. And I don't know how often this happens. I don't think you and I have talked about it much.

I don't remember it. The proceeding started on October 21st, 2014. Because of the circus-like atmosphere of the first trial, cameras were not allowed in the courtroom. Jody did not take the stand during the retrial. That's probably a really smart thing. Yeah, I could see where it could be smart, but it does limit her ability somewhat

to make her pleased to the jury. But it also keeps her from being asked, certain questions that she probably doesn't want to answer. Right. So I think that probably overrides the other. The defense grilled detective Esteban Flores, who admitted that he changed his story on how exactly Travis died at court hearings in 2009. He testified that Travis was shot, stabbed, and then his throat was slit.

At the 2013 trial, the prosecution said Travis was stabbed, had his throat slit, and then was shot. Again, I can see why you would try to make a big deal out of that. Does that change? The ultimate outcome for Jody Arias, and I would say, no, I don't see how it would. Yeah, I think it's still the same case. Now, maybe they're trying to chip away at the credibility of the detective. Forensic examiner Kevin Horn maintained that Travis was shot after he was stabbed.

The order of events was important. though for this reason. And it's because Jody was accused of committing an excessively cruel crime. But regardless of the order, aren't they both excessively cruel? If you're shot, stabbed in throat slit, or if you're stabbed, throat slit, and then you're shot, is there a difference? Well, I think the argument that was made was that if Travis was shot first and unable to fight back, the stab wounds and throat cutting could meet the criteria. However, if he was stabbed first, the additional stab wounds could have been a logical result of the struggle. This is all according to the Arizona Republic. So, I mean, I get your way of thinking, which is it's all extremely

cruel or excessively cruel. But I also understand this way of thinking. If he's shot first, then it's almost like, you know, she's mutilating him just for the sake of it, as opposed to, okay, I stabbed him. That didn't kill him. I slid his throat. Apparently, that didn't kill him. So I ended up shooting him. Is it still unbelievably cruel? Yes. Is it excessively cruel? I guess that's the definition or the criteria. I think, I just think you can say the stabbing. itself was cruel 27 times no it is cruel but under the law is it excessively cruel and it sounds like this criteria was very specific yeah almost as if it didn't need to happen in order for the person to die that's maybe i'm simplifying it too much but i agree that's kind of how i took it

i'm just back to the 27 stab wounds excessive yeah it seems like Prosecutor Juan Martinez seated a California police officer who handled the case involving the burglary of Jody's grandparents' home. In late May 2008, a 25 caliber gun was stolen from them. The gun has never been found. And Jody was not charged with that burglary. She has said that she did not take her grandparents gun. Is that even relevant? I mean, I don't know that it is.

She's already been convicted, right? We're in the penalty phase. So I'm not really sure. But I'm also not sure why she wouldn't cop to that. And maybe she just didn't want to because of her family. She didn't want it known that she killed Travis Alexander with her grandparents gun. Yeah, that wouldn't be any good. The second jury received the case on February 25th on March 3, 2015.

The judge ordered the jury to continue. deliberating after they had reached an impasse. On March 5th, the second mistrial was declared after the jury could not reach a unanimous decision on the death penalty. Only one juror refused to sentence Jody to death. So one holdout. Yeah, that's all it took. But what that meant was that it was up to the judge to sentence Jody and the death penalty was off the table. The judge had the option to sentence her to life without parole or allow her to be eligible for parole after 25 years. Either way, this is a win for Jody. Yeah, it means the death penalty is gone.

Again, I go back to, you know, as a juror, that cannot be an easy decision. You could see how there would be one person, if not more, that just made the decision that they just couldn't do it. They couldn't recommend putting someone to death. According to the Washington Post, the one holdout was juror 17. The juror said she felt like she was judged for her decision. Her name, address, and phone number were leaked, and people threatened her and her family. She said that other jurors accused her of having an agenda, and she felt like she was being harassed

during deliberation. Fellow jurors said the woman had prior knowledge about the case. another issue was that Juan Martinez prosecuted her ex-husband over a decade earlier. Now, however this thing played out, whether she had an agenda or not, it's pretty rough to have your, you know, address, name, phone number leaked. Although, how hard is it really to get somebody's information? A lot easier today, but yeah, it really should be confidential. And then when you're thinking about, you know, getting death. threats and not just you, but your family for this decision. That's pretty rough. On April 13th,

2015, Jody Arias was sentenced to life without parole by Judge Sherry Stevens. Travis's sister Tanisha Sorensen told the judge that the family had been harassed by Jody's supporters and people sent them graphic photos of Travis's body. That's really jacked up. What is wrong with people? Yeah. I just don't get it. I get, you know, people get invested in a trial, a high profile trial. And if it doesn't come out the way that they think it should have, you believe in Jody's innocence, you're going to make the decision to send graphic photos of the victim's body to his family.

We're show them. Let me do this. Makes zero sense. It's, I mean, this is not the same level, but it's, it's almost, you know, there was a guy who was an Alabama football fan. Yeah. And Auburn, their big rival, beat them one year. And so he poisoned this tree, this very famous tree at Auburn.

And he killed this tree, which was like, I guess, hundreds of years old or whatever. He ended up going to jail. But it was over a football game. Which is so stupid. I don't know what's wrong with people. No. I don't either. Jody spoke in her own defense during her final sentencing hearing.

Her statements were published by ABC. She started off by disputing some of the statements made made by one of Travis's sisters. She then said, it's my firm belief that death would bring me untold peace and freedom. That's my personal belief. If I died a day, I would be free and I would be at peace. For years, that's exactly what I wanted. But I have to fight for my life, just like I did on June 4th, 2008, because I realized how selfish it would be for me to escape accountability for this mess that I created.

She continued speaking about how she killed Travis in self-defense saying, I do remember the moment that the knife went into Travis's throat and he was conscious. He was still trying to attack me. It was I who was trying to get away, not Travis. And I finally did. I never wanted it to be that way, Judge. The gunshot did not come last. It came first. It came first. It was and that was when Travis lunged at me, just as I testified to. And just as the state's own detective testified two years ago before he and prosecutor Juan Martez got together and decided to change their story for trial. She said she didn't want to speak negatively about Travis, but she had to in order to defend

herself. Jody apologized for causing Travis's family pain and said she wished she could undo what happened. To this day, I cannot believe. I was capable of doing something that terrible. I'm truly disgusted and I'm repulsed with myself. I'm horrified with what I did. And I wish there was some way I could take it back. Okay, there's a lot there.

And I want to break some of it down because I'm struggling with what appears to be some contradictions, right? She, in the statement, is sticking. with the self-defense story. He came at me. The gun went off. I stabbed him in the throat. He's still coming after me.

Now, obviously, the prosecution and law enforcement believed it went down much, much differently. But then she keeps saying that she was horrified about what she did. Now, maybe you would be horrified if you took someone's life regardless of the circumstances. But to me, I guess I took it as a little bit of a contradiction because if you're saying you had no choice. Why would you feel bad? You're protecting yourself. Well, I could see where you'd feel bad. I don't know.

Maybe it's not a contradiction, but for some reason in my mind, it seemed like it was. I think there would have been a better way to word it. Maybe that's what it is. Or saying that she was disgusted with herself and she was repulsed and all that kind of. Yeah, she didn't believe she was capable of doing something that terrible. Yeah. Well, obviously it was terrible what happened. But if in your mind you believe that you were really protecting yourself, would you have all of these emotions?

I mean, you're going to have some emotions because you took someone's life. Right. Regardless of the circumstances. But I don't know. I thought it was a strange way to word some of the things the way she did. Yeah. On June 22nd, 2015, Jody was ordered to pay more than $32,000 in restitution to Travis's siblings.

Then we see this restitution thing come up quite a bit. I always wonder, because I never actually saw it anywhere, how many of these individuals actually get or see any of that money? Probably few to none. Right. Because most people will spend their last dime to try to save. their lives. Yeah. And once they're in prison, they're not making a lot of money. They're probably making some money if they want, but they're not a lot of life. And maybe that

that money is garnished for however long. But yeah, you're right. You don't get paid much of a wage if you have a job in prison. Seven years after Travis was murdered, the court case had finally ended. But Jody has continued making headlines over the years. In May 2018, Jody's former cellmate Tracy Brown spoke to inside edition about their time living together. She showed off tattoos given to her by Jody and said that Jody made money in prison. By doing tattoos and selling artwork, Jody allegedly flirted with the COs to keep her contraband equipment. Well, it sounds like she's working the people in charge.

But it also sounds to me like what I believe her to be, a very manipulative person who would do what she has to do in order to get what she wanted. Tracy called Jody a sociopath and said that Jody confessed to killing Travis during a quiet moment in their cell. But Jody said Travis was not her target. What does that mean? According to Tracy, Jody said she went there hoping to find this other woman and kill her because she took her place.

Tracy said, I was watching her and she kind of goes down to her knees on the floor and I was looking at her and I said, what are you talking about? And she started crying, just a couple of tears coming out of her eyes, then it was done. Now again, do you believe this person, Tracy? Maybe, maybe not.

I mean, to me, it's still premeditated. Let's say she actually did go to kill this other woman that had taken her place or whatever. That's still premeditation. But then you have to figure out okay, she gets there to his house, that woman's not there.

And then what happens to make her kill Travis Alexander? So I don't know. The puzzle pieces don't seem to align perfectly there, but I'm not saying it couldn't be. On March 4th, 2020, the Arizona Court of Appeals upheld Jody's conviction and life sentence. Her lawyers argued that Jody was deprived of her right to a fair trial due to prosecutorial misconduct and the judge's failure to control news coverage. The court concluded that Jody was convicted based on overwhelming evidence of her guilt, but found that prosecutor Juan Martinez did commit misconduct by engaging in self-promotion.

Well, there was that. You know, autographs, whatever else he did. The court also condemned Martinez for his argumentative questions, aggressive touch. own and bullying behavior. So they came down on this guy pretty hard, but at the end of the day, when they used the phrase overwhelming evidence of her guilt, that means to me gives they had no doubt based on all the evidence presented because they would have gone through it all that she was guilty of murdering Travis Alexander.

According to Oxygen, Jody is currently incarcerated at the Perryville prison in Goodyear, Arizona. She was moved there in 2020. She's being held in medium custody after she was downgraded from close custody in February 2021. Jody worked as a library aid from February 2021 to July 22. So as we wrap up our two-parter on Jody Arias, you would have to say that she is one of the most infamous true crime figures of the 21st century, mainly because her trial was so sensational. And why was it? I think you look at the brutality of the crime, the sexual aspects of the case, and the emerging prominence of social media. And I think you could even throw in some of the religious aspects of it. Yeah. I mean, but you think about social media. Oh, yeah, big time.

go back to some of the older trials before social media, try to think of what they would have been like had social media existed the, you know, the way that it has over the last 10, 15, whatever years, the OJ trial. Oh, yeah. That one might have broke social media altogether. Well, if anyone could have, it would have been OJ. Jody did have a lot of online supporters. And unlike a lot of other.

infamous cases, you know, Travis Alexander was not portrayed as what you would call a perfect victim who never did anything wrong. I don't think there's any doubt that he and Jody had a very volatile, toxic relationship. But even with the things that we know he did, none of that made him deserving of being murdered the way he was. No. He may not have been a great guy. Yeah, we don't know. We don't know. Some of the things that, you know, were documented, you would say were not the way you would like for your son to behave. Oh, absolutely.

You would be disappointed if you found out that your son was calling a woman names like that and treating her like that. Not good. But again, to be killed the way he was. Brutal. Absolutely brutal. But that's it for our episode on Jodi Arias. We've got some voicemails, Gibbs.

You want to check those out? Let's hear them. Hey, this is Travis. I'm in Kansas City area. It doesn't matter. But I just, you know, I just finished listening to a recent episode. And, you know, when I hear the call in, Ghibi gets all the love. And I got to say, you know, I'm a fan of Givie.

I love him. You know, who doesn't love a Kbar nice? He's a quirky dude. But I hear you like bland food. But I just want to. to call in and give some love to a team Mike because I think he's getting he's being a little underappreciated. I think we can all give a little love to Mike. You know, Gibby, you've, you've had, you've had, you've had enough love. Give a little love to Mike. All right. Thank you. Have a good night.

Bye. Wow. Thanks for that team Gibby. You've got between the lines on that one, right? Yeah, I appreciate it. But I've said this to a lot of people. I feel like I tried to create a scenario early on where you would get this support. I don't know how to say this the way I wanted to come out. Yeah. But I almost feel like I created a monster. There is no monster sitting here. That I can't put back in the cage.

And I do like spicy food. Mm, I've eaten with you a lot. You are on the blander side of things. I like spicy. Maybe I don't like it as spicy as you. Yeah, I think you're kind of bland. Just from a food standpoint, not from a personality standpoint. Yeah.

Hey, Mike and Gibby. This is Cody from Oklahoma. I just wanted to call and say that I love you guys. The stories are awesome. I listen to them all the time at work. I also have a side hustle of mowing business. I listen to it when I'm mowing. I've listened to all of the T-Cat episodes.

I'm working my way through the unsolved. I've probably got about maybe a little bit of a third of them left. Recently, I was just listening to the BTK, Jeffrey Dahmer. Right now I'm going back to listen to the John Wayne Gacy episode. Anyways, keep doing what you're doing, and we love it out here. I can't choose the team because I think both of you are awesome. So, thanks. Bye.

Oh, man, there's another team Gibby. Cody. No, appreciate it. The nice words. Very, very much. I wonder how, tell us how you get that grass to look two-tone. Oh. You know what I'm talking about?

Yeah. I actually think I watched a show on that one time. Did you? Like how they do Major League Baseball outfields. Yeah. I can't remember how they did it. It's very cool. Yeah.

And make it look amazing. Well, my grass to look like that. I'm sure you could figure it out. All right, man, that is it for another episode of, true crime all the time. So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.