True Crime All The Time - John Rodney McRae

Episode Date: June 29, 2020

John McRae's committed his first murder when he was only 15. He murdered an 8-year-old boy in his neighborhood. He was convicted of the murder and sent away to prison for life. It was thought that, after 20 years, he was rehabilitated and he was set free. That decision would prove disastrous. Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the life and crimes of John McCrae. John went on to commit additional crimes, some for which he was ultimately convicted. He is thought to be responsible for a number of disappearances of young boys in Florida. There are many years where John seemingly committed no crimes. Is that possible for a predator like McRae? Or, was he just able to get away with his crimes and stay off police radar?You can support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 189 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson. And with me as always is my partner in True Crime, Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you? I'm good, man. About yourself. I'm doing great. Yeah.

I'm doing great. I'm ready to jump into this episode. But before we do that, let's give our Patreon shoutouts. Okay. We had Tanya rolls. Hey, Tanya. And with Tanya, I have to give a huge apology because I actually missed her shoutout. That doesn't happen very often, but you know, I am fallible. Yes, you are.

We had Ivy Lee up her contribution to the highest amount. Hey, Ivy. Kelly Cravens. Hey, Cravens. Carrie Her Ware. What's going on, Carrie? Laura McDonald. Hey, Laura. Katie Hamlin. Thank you, Katie. Katina Freeman. What's going on? Katina. Shelly Francis Watson. What's up, Frances Watson? Jenny Moran jumped out at our highest level. Jenny in the house. Claire Lynch. Hey, Claire. Monique Mercer jumped out to our highest level. Thank you, Monique.

We had Ned Shepard. Hey, Ned. And then we had a bunch of people jump out at our highest level, Dan Crossman. Thanks, Dan. Kate Wilson. Appreciate it, Kate. And Abby the Duck. Man, Abby the Duck.

The duck. Yeah. We had Vicki Story. Hey, Vicki. Linda Butcher. Thank you, Butcha. Don Pauling jumped out at our highest level. Thank you, Don.

As did Monica Brock. So just amazing. support, Gibbs, new support that we continue to see. And then if we go back into the vault, yeah, this week we selected Kim Pasquilini. Pascolini. Yeah, fun name to say. And, you know, that type of long-term support that we get from so many people is very much appreciated. We had some PayPal donations as well. Dorothy Tassie. Hey, Tassie. Nadine Carlina Zadiba. Ooh, Zadiba. Yeah. Mary. William Evans.

Amen. And Amanda Carroll. Thank you, Amanda. So big thanks to all of you as well. So right now, Gibbs, we have a new Patreon-only episode out. Came out Saturday night. Yeah. It's a wild story.

It is a wild story. Around the murder of 16-year-old Martha Puebla. There's a gang called Divine Land Boys. There's questionable police activity. Yeah. A little bit of Hollywood, too. In trying to gain a confession. there's, you're right, there's Hollywood, a big TV show involved, and a father who narrowly

escaped death row. Really, really narrow. All of this by very bizarre circumstances. So, I mean, I think it's an episode that a lot of people will like. So if you're a Patreon member, definitely check that out. If you're not, it's a great time to sign up. Yeah. Do it.

We also have a new episode out on True Crime All the Time Unsolved. We're talking about what I'm calling the Northeast Ohio teenager murders. Yeah. We're going to be around that Akron area, 1962 to 1963, three teenagers that disappeared, found murdered. There's going to be some rabbit holes. There's going to be some strange tie-in. So it's a good one to listen to. Yeah, definitely.

Make sure you check that out. All right, buddy, are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time? I am. We're talking about John Rodney McRae, who murdered a number of boys over a 30-plus year period. But Gibbs, this is not a case of a predator that eluded police for all that time. This is a case of a man who was caught, led out of prison after committing murder, to then go on and commit additional murders. Yeah. John Rodney McRaeay was born in 19. And he grew up in the Detroit, Michigan area. He lived with his parents and a sister. By 1950,

John was kind of a big kid, big 15 year old. Husky boy. He was a little husky. Probably wore huskies, too, if they were around back then. He played on the football team. He got into his share of trouble. He and his friends would steal boats, cars, drive them around for fun. You got to think, right, Detroit's right there close to the lake. So sure. A lot of boats around. But 1950s also the year when he committed his first murder. So we're jumping right in.

I don't have a ton of background on McRae on September 9th of that year. Eight year old Joey Housie was last seen around the area of Frassard and Jefferson playing with a headlight on a car. Now, you might say, all right, what's the big deal? Why is a kid out there playing with the headlight? Right. Well, the way that most of the papers framed it was that in 1950, this was a new type of headlight.

People were very intrigued. Fascinated. Fascinated. They wanted to see it. They wanted to see how it worked. John McRae encountered Joey Housie and he took this young boy's life. When Joey didn't return home for dinner, his family became worried. They called the police.

Police quickly began searching for the young boy, but so did neighbors and friends. I mean, a lot of people turned out to search for Joey. Among them was John. Weeks went by with no sign of the eight-year-old boy. Then on Saturday, September 23rd, two weeks into the searching, a man sat down. on a big piece of broken concrete to take a break, right? So this is a searcher, somebody that's volunteered to help, you know, in the search. Right. He's got to take a break. As he's sitting there, he looked down and he saw a small arm sticking out of the mud. And it was reported that there was a

silver Cub Scout ring on the middle finger of the hand. It was eight year old Joey Howsey. and he was found very close to the McRae house. The boy's throat had been slashed, as had his genitals. Ouch. So it was a very brutal, sick type of murder. Absolutely. The medical examiner wrote in his autopsy report, The wounds present are characteristic of murder by a sexual aberrant.

If the murderer is not found, he will probably. repeat their performance. Pretty good statement to make. Yeah, I mean, I think it is. I don't know that you're really going out on a limb, you know, by making that statement, but I get it. Looking at the type of wounds that were inflicted upon this young boy, especially when you look at the mutilation of his genitals, you kind of have to lean towards this being some type of sexual sadist or somebody that derived sexual pleasure from, you know, what he did. And then to say that if we don't catch this guy, he's going to do it again, I think that's true with a lot of murderers, right? And you and I have talked about it before. Why is that? Because they enjoy it. They get something from this.

they're not doing it just the past the time you know when you get into the area of sexual gratification through hurting others do you just want that sexual gratification one time no the person enjoyed it yeah they're going to look to do it again and want sometimes to increase to get the bigger rush when we've seen that because the rush of doing the same thing is not quite the same Yeah, so they got to take it up a level to get to get the same rush or even a bigger rush. It's sad, but it's very true. After Joey was found, 15-year-old John went to his father with a very strange story. So basically what he told him was, Dad, I had a dream.

Yeah. And in this dream, I killed that little boy. His father reportedly took him down to the lake and said, you know what? swim as far as you can and never come back. If you had anything to do with the death of that boy, start swimming now. Yeah. And don't return. Well, that's a father holding his son's feet to the flames.

Well, is it? Because some people have made the argument that he should have turned him in a man. But if he couldn't do that, then he didn't want to have anything to do with them. Right. So. I'm done with you. You can look at a couple of different ways. Yeah.

But many people have made that argument that, okay, if you really thought he had something to do with it, you should have called the police. That's not going to make a whole lot of difference, to be honest with you. John does jump into the water. Right. And he starts to swim. He doubles back at some point and decides, you know what? No, I'm not going to swim to Canada.

Right. I'm going to get a boat. Yeah. I'm going to steal a boat and I'll take the boat to Canada, which he does. does. And he had some relatives over there, but he's a 15-year-old boy who, you know, at some point shows up to a relative's house in Canada. Well, what's a relative going to say when somebody shows up out of the blue? A. Well, first of all, they're going to say A. A. But probably not here, but they're not from the Great White North. Right. As a 15-year-old, they're going to say,

what are you doing? Yeah. We've got to get you back to your parents. Do they know you're here. Yeah, do they know you're gone? It's only going to end one way with his arrest and sitting in front of investigators back in Detroit, John quickly confessed to killing and mutilating Joey Howsey with a straight razor. It's brutal for a 15 year old. Brutal for anybody, but 15 years old. Yeah. Yeah. That's another kid. 15 year old on eight year old. And one of the things that came out was that John's mother had been one of Joey's teachers. So imagine what she thought when she found out what her son had done to one of her former students.

John told investigators that initially after he killed Joey, he had left his body exposed, but then later went back and covered his body up with a big slab of concrete. This is what this volunteer searcher was sitting on. was this big slab of concrete. McRae went on trial in 1951, and prosecutors made the decision to try him as an adult. Well, the crime was brutal. It was brutal. It was an adult-like crime.

For sure. But, you know, a 15-year-old tried as an adult facing, you know, an adult-like sentence. Ooh, that is rough. But so was the crime he committed. an expert testified that the murder of Joey Housie was the work of a sexual deviant that needed to be locked up and kept away from society. And I think on that point, everybody agreed. Yeah, I mean, it goes back to what we said before. This was not something that was going to stop.

It was going to have to be stopped. But how do you stop it and make sure that this guy, this kid never hurts anybody else again? You lock him up. Yeah. forever. He was convicted of the murder of Joey Housie and sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. And again, I'm not excusing what this kid did at all. Absolutely not. But to think about at the age of 15, hearing that you're going to spend the rest of your life in jail. You could live to be what, Gibbs, let's say 85. Yeah. You would spend 70 years of your life in jail. You could live to be what, Gibbs.

let's say 85. Yeah. You would spend 70 years of your life in jail. It's a long time, man. It is. But I do think it shows you what the community, what the prosecutors, what everybody felt about this crime and about this 15-year-old boy. You know, back to what you said.

If he could do this to an 8-year-old boy and if he did derive some type of sexual satisfaction from it. This is not a person that we can have walking the streets, which is exactly what the judge told the housey family. The judge said, John McRae would never ever be a free man, allowed to walk to streets again. Well, it's a powerful statement. It is. I'm sure it's something that the family wanted to hear.

The problem is the judge had no way of knowing, but he couldn't have been more wrong. not only would McRae walk to streets again, he would kill again. McRae built up a good record during his time in prison. Doctors who examined him said that McRae was unlikely to offend again if ever released. But in some of the reports I read Gibbs, it was noted that he lacked remorse for his actions. Which is a problem. It is a problem. And he told at least one doctor.

that the only reason he was caught was because he couldn't keep his mouth shut. So to me, you got some opposing, you know, kind of ideas here. On the one hand, the guy saying, I don't think he'll ever offend again. Right. On the other hand, it sounds like he wasn't real sorry about what he had done. No, doesn't seem like it. In 1971, after serving 20 years in prison, then Governor William Milliken. commuted McRae's life sentence, which made him eligible for parole.

And he was paroled early the next year on February 2nd, 1972. The Detroit Free Press reported that the Housies were outraged, understandably. Well, yeah, I mean, the judge looked him in the eye and said, basically, he'll never be out free. You don't need to worry anymore, folks. We got this under control. Well, I think first of all, they were upset that this man was back on the streets. after like you said, the judge told them he'd never be set free. But secondly, that he was released without any warning to them.

Yeah, kind of hit him on the side pretty quick when they found that out. It really did. No one called them and said, hey, look, this man who viciously murdered your son is getting out. They found out, I think, pretty much like everyone else did, most likely from the news, that this guy was back living among them. That would be a little scary, right? There's, there's been some safety for 20 years because this man who killed your little boy.

Yeah. Was locked up. Now all of a sudden, he could be at the grocery store. He could be following you. You don't know. And I imagine they also looked at it as did he pay for what he did. I can't imagine in their eyes that they, they probably thought he did.

pay enough. Oh, I'm sure no. Because 20 years? My son's not back in 20 years. My son's gone forever. Yeah. My son didn't even live for 20 years because of you. Well, that's a good point. John married and had a son during his years on parole. Then in 1975, his parole ended and he moved his family to Florida. Kind of interesting when he gets to Florida. It is because he's able to get a job pretty easily it sounds like as a prison guard in Brevard County. Yeah. And I think right there, it shows you just how lacks the vetting system, the checking up on people that you're hiring was back in the day.

You know, hiring a next con as a prison guard seems like a very bad idea to me. Does it seem like a good one? No, because are they more likely to help somebody escape? are they more likely to bring contraband in, all of that stuff? Right. But if you don't check to find out that the guy has a record, then, you know, that's going to happen. At some point in the late 70s, he transferred to a youthful offender facility. So now, not only do you have a guy with a felony on his record, but the felony was for the murder of a child.

and you've got him guarding young people. Most likely young males pretty much seems like a recipe for disaster and no surprise. It's going to turn out to be just that. In 1977, 14 year old Keith Fleming went missing from Cocoa Beach, Florida. He had left his girlfriend's home and told her he was going to hitchhike back to his house. His body has never been found. In 1979, McRae was moonlighting as a security guard at a church during the time when they held their carnival. Oh, working with your carnies. Yeah. Yeah.

So I don't know that he was a security guard there all the time, but they're having this big carnival. They probably hired some, you know, security guards. And he said, you know what? I'm in. I'm up for that. I can do that. Well, a local Boy Scout group had worked out a deal with the church. and the deal was the scouts would be allowed to camp on the grounds of the church and they would be allowed to attend the carnival in exchange for helping to clean up.

Seems like a good deal for all involved. Yeah. I mean, the church gets some free cleanup out of the deal and these kids get to camp. They get to go to the carnival. All they got to do is a little bit of work. Now, one of the scouts there at the time was a 12-year-old named Kip Hess. Kip was a small kid and it was said that he was bullied by some of his fellow scouts, something that I would think Gibbs would be against the code.

The code of honor there, yeah. Now, I was never a scout. I think you were. I was. So I don't know, but my assumption is that's not part of the creed, the motto, the code. No. No, it is not.

But he was getting bullied. And who else would step in? and stop it, but the knight in shining armor, John McRae. Of course he would. Because he's there working as a security guard. McRae brought his son with him and had his son make friends with Kip. Within days, Kipp Hess vanished after leaving for school in Merritt Island, Florida. He was never seen again and his body has never been found.

Search parties were formed to try to find Kip Hess. And just like in 1950, McRae offered his services. So you think about this, Gibbs, here is a man that is later believed to have murdered Kip taking part in the searches for him. Sure. Interjecting himself into the crime. Yep. Most likely taking some type of perverse joy in doing this.

You think about it, the idea that no one else knows what he's done. He's the only one. Seeing up close the pain on the family's face, watching the activity of searchers, knowing that, you know what, they're not even close to finding this kid because I'm the one who knows where he's buried. Right. I mean, all of that is, it's just so horrific. It's so evil on top of what he did to, you know, this, this young 12 year old boy. Unimaginable. Gibbs, who says taking care of yourself needs to be.

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Yeah, it's not a good mix to have. No. And it was right after Charles escaped. that the rumors began flying, that McCray and Collingwood were engaged or had been engaged in some type of sexual activity. And the thought became, okay, it was John who had helped Charles escape. Also around this time, investigators found out about John's past. So they questioned him about the escape and the disappearance of Charles Collingwood. Now, he said he didn't know anything about it, but investigators didn't believe him.

They theorized that John and Charles were having some type of affair and that Collingwood had threatened to expose him. Well, it's plausible. It's plausible. So their theory involved John helping Charles escape and then silencing him. Collingswood body, if he is deceased, has never been found. And again, you know, I say if this was, what, 40 odd years ago. Right. The chances that any of these people are alive. Slim to none. Slim to none, unless there was somehow that they just completely slipped off the radar. And I think,

you know, you use the word plausible. And I think it's a good word in this situation because, okay, this 19-year-old escapes. Either he managed to stay off the grid all these years. Yep. Or he was murdered by the person that helped him escape. Which one sounds more plausible? Yeah, absolutely. The second one, right?

Sure, yeah. I think one thing that investigators found pretty telling was that not long after John was he up and moved his family. When authority searched his locker at the correctional institution, they found a newspaper clipping about the disappearance of 14-year-old Keith Fleming. And at that point, they didn't even know, right? They really had not even thought about John as being involved in the murder of or disappearance of Keith Fleming at all. So Florida officials have three missing young males in about a two-year period. All three were searched for extensively, but were never found.

They have a man in John McRae that many felt could have been responsible for what happened to all three of these boys. He definitely had some type of connection to at least two of the three. And I think Gibbs at one point, he did tell investigators that he spent time at Cocoa Beach watching boys serve. The problem is they didn't really have enough evidence to charge them with anything. Yeah, and that's usually the problem that investigators run into. They think they may know who has done these things, but thinking it or even believing it is not enough. No. You have to be able to prove it.

And they just couldn't do it. So the McRae family moved around a bit, but by 1984, they were living in central Michigan. And for about seven years from 80 to 1987, it seems as though John didn't commit any crimes. At least that police know of. But Gibbs, it's hard for me to think that a man like this would go seven years without doing something. Yeah, I have a hard time believing that too. I just think he was lucky enough not to be caught. Or maybe even really suspected of anything.

I tend to believe that he did something, probably sexual in nature, either, you know, molested young boys or even probably murdered. Right. Other boys. I mean, you could argue that he could do a long step because he had to when he went to prison for 20 years, but he was also controlled. Yes. He had no choice when he was in prison. Now he's got the choice. I think it's just too convenient for him.

I'm with you. I tend to think that police. just never connected him to anything. And of course, he wasn't about to offer it up, right, even after he was captured. Right.

It's not like he was probably going to go back and say, oh, yeah, by the way, I also did this of this and this. You don't know about it. You've not asked me about it. But I'm just going to offer it up.

Sure. It's not going to happen. Yeah. But in 1987, John committed another murder. 15-year-old Randy Loffer was a neighbor to the McRourneux. was a neighbor to the McRays and a classmate of John's son Martin. The two rode the same bus to school.

Wow. When Randy disappeared, the police believed that he had run away. Now, his family said, no way. Well, but you got to remember back in the, really from 50s through the 90s, man, there was a lot of runaway action going on. There was. I feel like this disappearance of Randy Lawfer was handled. much differently than, you know, the other disappearances that we talked to.

Even some of the, some of the ones that went back to 1950, it really was basically as though they told Randy's family, there's really not much we can do because we think the kid ran away. Sure. Yeah. Because a lot of kids were running away. They were. But so what you didn't have was the big search parties.

You didn't have the police doing maybe all. of the work that they could have done. The impression that I got was Randy's family was kind of left on their own to put up flyers to canvas, you know, the neighborhood. Police questioned John about the disappearance. And what's interesting is by this time, they knew about his past, including the fact that officials in Florida suspected him of some murders. Right.

Now, he said he didn't know anything about it. Of course. What else is, you know, he going to say? But he knew what happened to Randy. So he uprooted his family again after being questioned. This time he headed for Arizona, where his mother lived. This was January of 1988. Seems like a pattern, right, with him. Yeah. I did something bad, really bad, the worst thing you can possibly do. Right. The heat's on a little bit. I wouldn't see. say it's on full blast, but the heat's on. Pretty get moving.

Yeah, we better get the heck out of Dodge. Now, when police found out that he had up and left, I think that sent some additional red flags flying. So they searched his trailer. They sent tracking dogs to the property, but they didn't find anything. Ten years went by. And for those 10 years, police believed that John McRae had something to. do with Randy's disappearance, they just couldn't prove it. But all of that changed in the fall of

1997. So you had this place where John lived with his family in Michigan. By this time, it's 10 years later, right? The trailer's gone. It's been demolished. All the other outbuildings had been torn down. All that was really left on the grounds were some cement blocks. And it was these cement blocks that were getting in the way of a neighbor's horses. Yeah, didn't want to break their legs. Yeah. Things like that.

Yeah. So the neighbor paid someone to come out with a backhoe to do a little digging. Basically, all the neighbor wanted was for them to push these cement blocks in a hole in the ground and cover it back up with dirt. Right. But when the backhoe pulled up some dirt. The operator saw a human skull. It was just sitting there. Human skull that later turned out to belong to Randy Laffer.

So obviously, police are going to come back out, do a search for the rest of Randy's remains. His body was buried in a shallow grave that was only about 15 to 20 feet from the trailer in which the McCray family lived in the 1980s. Yeah, pretty close. Yeah. I mean, you're right out of it. outside your front door. And the fact that he was in a shallow grave too that close. They already thought or had suspicion, right, that John McRae had something to do with the

disappearance of Randy Loffer. Now they find the boys remains on the property where this guy lived. Does it prove he killed him? No, probably not. But it's got to bolster their theory quite a bit. But he's in Arizona. So they reached out to police there and they asked them to surveil John McCray. And it really wasn't that long after they discovered the remains of Randy that 63-year-old John

McRae and his 23-year-old son Martin were arrested in Arizona. This was October 15, 1997. John was charged with the murder of 15-year-old Randy Laffer and Martin was charged. and Martin was charged as an accomplice. It was believed by police that Martin helped his father bury Randy's body. After officials got to pair back to Michigan, the charges against Martin were dropped. And there really wasn't much around that gives. I had a hard time figuring out, you know, number one, why they thought that he had a hand in it.

And then number two, why they dropped it. So it's just going to be John that goes to trial in 1998. Yeah. Yeah, just John. At his trial, experts testified to knife marks found on the remains of Randy Laffer. And they theorized that this was an extremely brutal murder. Some knife marks were found on Randy's tailbone. They said that kind of indicated sexual torture.

Yeah, it wasn't elaborated on in great detail. So I think you're kind of left to maybe it was in the trial, but in the papers and in some of the different articles. I found, there really wasn't much elaboration. So I think you're kind of left to make your own conclusions. How does one get these type of knife marks on tailboat? It's definitely a unique way. And why do the experts feel that this was part of some type of sexual act? Well, you can make the leap, and I don't know if it's a great leap,

that maybe this knife was shoved, you know, in this, this boy's rear end, hit his tailbone. I mean, you can, your mind can go a bunch of different ways. Oh, absolutely. None of them are good. No. No good scenario there. I don't know, Gibbs.

I don't think this was a tough one for the jury. You know, when you're, you're putting forth the evidence that this kid was a neighbor. Yeah. You're obviously putting forth John's pass. Right. Committed murder, did a stint for murder, is widely believed to have been involved in some disappearances in Florida. Right. They find the remains of Randy Loffer just outside the guy's front door where he used to live. I just don't think it was that tough for the jury.

McRae was convicted of first degree murder and sentenced to life without parole. But there was one piece of testimony during the trial. that later proved to be problematic. A former neighbor of Johns, who happened to be a volunteer deputy, spoke with John while he was in jail. This guy's name was Dean. He ended up testifying at trial that McRae basically confessed to the murder.

So, you know, he walked into his cell, talked to John one night and said, man, did you do what they said that you did? Right. And apparently he just hung his head and said, it was bad, man.

It was bad. Now, he didn't come out and say, yes, I killed this kid. Right. But I think most people took it from the comments that he was basically confessing. Sure. That he had committed the murder. The problem is John's defense team used this in their appeal to the Michigan Court of Appeals, they said that this was unconstitutional police interrogation.

Yeah, because he was there as a deputy, not a friend. That was their argument. Now, the Michigan Court of Appeals didn't see it that way, but the Michigan Supreme Court did when it made it, you know, to them. Basically, they ruled that, okay, this guy wore a uniform. He had a badge. and he had special access that other friends wouldn't have had, right? Other neighbors wouldn't have been allowed to just go and sit in the cell with John McRae.

Well, this guy, Dean, was. Absolutely. Because he was a volunteer deputy or whatever. So the Michigan Supreme Court deemed that he was there in an official capacity. and therefore his testimony tainted the jury. And because of it, they overturned John's murder conviction. But they're not going to let this guy go, right? Just because his murder conviction got overturned, they're going to try him again.

They have the evidence to put him away. And he did go to trial in 2005 and once again was found guilty and sentenced to life in prison on June 15th, 2005. But Gibbs, John wouldn't serve much of his new life sentence. And his attorneys wouldn't be able to appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court. He was found dead in his cell, 13 days into this new life sentence. It was ruled that he died from natural causes. That we know of. That we know of. I mean, the guy was at this point, well, like 70 years old. Yeah. Pretty good chance. Yeah, I mean, there was nothing to indicate that he took his own life. And I don't believe there was anything to indicate that somebody else took his life.

So it wasn't like a Jeffrey Epstein kind of a death. No. I'm pretty sure they know that Jeffrey Epstein took his own life. Yeah. Or did he? Well, there are people that believe he did not. Well, when you hang around powerful people and you do wrong things and maybe include them into those wrong things and have evidence of them doing wrong things.

Yeah, I think that's a case that is ripe for conspiracy theories. Sure, it is. I mean, anytime you've got a bunch of money and you know famous people and there's been allegations that some of those famous people did some of the things that you were accused of. Yeah. Like you said, you might have firsthand knowledge of that. So again, I don't know if I buy any of that, but those conspiracy theories are definitely out there. But, you know, you can definitely see where someone could easily pay a prison guard, a good chunk of change.

Sure. Yeah. If there's anything that I've learned from doing these podcasts with you is that just about anything is possible. Yeah. Things that before I would never have dreamed could have happened, have happened. And we say, oh, that did happen, didn't it? Yeah. Yeah.

But in this case, I believe you're right. You know, natural causes. Well, some years old. Yeah, I mean, obviously there was no shank sticking out of this guy's neck or he wasn't found with something wrapped around his neck. All signs pointed to the fact that it was, you know, a natural death. his defense team said after his second conviction, they were planning to appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court.

Obviously, they wouldn't get to, but they did say in their minds there was plenty of reasonable doubt. Well, because they're going to say John was at a 4-H meeting the night that Randy disappeared. They all sitting around the campfire or something at that 4-H meeting. I don't have the specifics to that. That was one of their arguments. But again, you know, timing. is a big thing. You know, I don't know what time exactly Randy disappeared.

So based on when this meeting was, obviously that would play a big factor. They also made the claim that Randy Laffer was spotted a year after he disappeared. So this was a big thing. And there was quite a bit in the research about this. The defense saying he wasn't dead. Right. People had seen him. There was a theory that he ran away to join the circus because he had told people he was going to do that.

Again, I don't know if there's truth to any of it, but the defense said this was part of what they were going to bring up. If they had a chance to go before the U.S. Supreme Court. The other thing that they pointed out was, you know, police had combed the McCray property. They brought out dogs and the dogs never smelled a thing. Now, they said that there were cadaver dogs there. Not all of the reports that I read said they were cadaver dogs. Most of them listed them as search dogs. So I don't know.

There's a difference. There is a difference. A cadaver dog is trained to smell a very certain smell. Absolutely. Yeah. where I think of a search dog as, you know, they're smelling, let's say, a piece of a person's clothing. Bloodhounds, yeah. And then they're trying to follow that scent.

And I do think it's very different. I would absolutely agree with that. But I don't know. There definitely could have been cadaver dogs there. I just didn't read that. Now, some members of the Law for Family spoke to the Detroit Free Press. And they said that if the U.S. Supreme Court, took the case, it would just open up another layer of heartache. And obviously, they had been through a

lot already with the original trial, the overturning of John's conviction and then the second trial, but they never had to go through that. And I'm not even sure that the U.S. Supreme Court would have taken up this case. I mean, they are very selective. And I think they had a, the defense had a really tough claim to go for, right? With the 4-H and someone saw Randy a year later, I mean, there's doppelgangers everywhere for people. You say that you saw somebody a year later without having any photographic proof. I don't know how the Supreme Court would even look at it. Yeah, and I could be wrong, but my thought was normally those types of convictions are really only overturned in the case of some type of Brady violation,

material defect in the trial, which is exactly what happened with the Michigan Supreme Court, right? They found that this testimony tainted the jury. So they had to overturn the conviction. Now, he was a convicted again. I didn't read where the defense had some other bombshell like that to present to the U.S. Supreme Court. But you know, Gibbs with John's death came the reality that the families of his Florida victims,

if he did have a hand in the disappearance of all three of these boys, they're never going to get the answers that they had been looking for because John took what he knew with him when he died. And I think that would be really tough. You know, on the one hand, there were probably family members of different victims who were not sad at all that John McCrae died. But you can look at some of the families of these Florida victims and say they might have been a little because they're still searching for the answers of what happened to,

you know, their loved ones, their sons. Would they have ever found out? I don't know. If John hadn't you know, given up information by that point in his life, was he ever going to? Yeah, maybe some kind of deal could have been made. I doubt it for him to give that information up. Yeah, because I don't know what they would have made at that point. I mean, at his age, I mean. They weren't going to let him out. No.

You just hope maybe they. Giving more pudding cups. Something, you know. Extra ramen noodles from the, from the commissary? More yard time. Now, it doesn't mean that John. can never be tied to those cases, I do think they're very tough. I don't know if investigators had anything in the way of DNA. I don't know that. And if they didn't, I don't know how they would ever

conclusively prove that John was responsible for any or all three of those disappearances. It'd be really rough. I mentioned that John's son Martin got dragged into everything when police thought he had helped bury Randy Laffer's body. They did drop that charge. And like I said before, I just couldn't find much information on it. Why did they think he was involved and why did they drop it? What I did find was that Martin got into his own trouble. Big trouble. Pig trouble. In 2000, he was charged with molesting his own daughter and one of her friends. So in 2001, he was convicted of these charges and sentenced to 10 years to life in prison. And I checked. It appears he's still sitting in the northern Nevada correctional center. He keeps coming up for parole, but they keep denying them. Yeah, I think his next

one, if I remember, is in February of 21. So, you know, early next year, 10 to life is kind of a very strange sentence. Yeah. So it's 10 years minimum. Up to. Up to life. But with that, you're going to come up for parole pretty early. Yeah. And that's why he's been up so many times already. You know, I know we did that episode, oh, about a month or so back about, you know, genetics, father, son. granddad. And if there's anything to it. Yeah. Yeah.

So you kind of wonder here, you know, is there, is there anything here? You know, because not as horrific as his dad. Well, he didn't kill. That we know of. That we know of, yeah. But still horrific actions. And could, could that escalate down the road? Yeah, I think it very well could.

But that question still is very intriguing to me. the whole thing of whether there's genetics involved. I'm almost certain there's learned behavior involved, right? I think you and I have covered that extensively. Right. What people see during their childhood, what they see from their father or mother or, you know, people in their lives and they think, okay, this is okay or this is the way that things work. I get all that.

but the actual genetics part, it's interesting. I just, I don't know the answer. And I don't think anybody does at this point. But I do want to go back to Martin because if you look at that sentence, 10 years to life, you and I have done a ton of cases. Yeah. Where people have been convicted of molestation and they've received hardly anything. Oh, nothing.

Step on the wrist. So for me to see that. is a good thing. Yeah. This, this very serious sentence that could stretch out for many, many, many years,

you know, he's already been in there for almost 20 years. Right. I'm just happy to see that it wasn't a two year he did seven months. Right. And was out for, you know, a very heinous crime.

But that's it, Gibbs. That's the case of John McRae. It's an interesting case. I mean, there are some fascinating components to it. You know, when you think about John as a kid, he was a kid at 15 years old, making the decision that he was going to murder an eight-year-old boy. That's hard to wrap your mind around.

It really is. Now, he got a very serious sentence. Yeah. As a juvenile in 1950. And, you know, I was actually kind of surprised by that, that the, sentence was so harsh, I'm okay with it because what he did was so bad. Okay, he's a model prisoner. There's some conflicting reports about what mental health experts had to say about him and his likelihood of being a repeat offender ultimately came down to one person said he's not

likely to re-offend. Yeah. The governor says he was only 15. I'm going to commute a sentence. Now, obviously, in hindsight, that was a horrible thing to do. Oh, it was. Yeah. But on paper, I'm sure it looked perfectly fine.

Yeah, I mean, at the time, they probably thought this was a young kid. He's been rehabilitated. And we feel as though he can go into society and be, you know, a good member and and live a good life. Right. It definitely did not turn out that way. It did not. We got some voicemails.

You want to check those out? Yes, sir. Hello, Mike and Gibby. How are you? This is Carl from Houston, California. I've been listening to your podcast probably for the last six or eight months now. And just recently listened to the Lawrence Singleton podcast. And that one hit really close to home because Mary Vincent's about a year older than I am.

And her body was dumped or she was dumped about 30 or 40 miles from where we live. up in Del Porto Canyon. My dad and I used to go fishing up there, hunting up there quite a bit. Anyway, something I just recently found out was when she was brought to Modesto to Cemic General Hospital. She was placed in the room next to my wife's aunt, who says she distinctly remembers the screams in the middle of the night from her, obviously waking up from just horrible nightmares, armed guards around the clock in front of her door. So, yeah, that story really struck close to home, and I really enjoyed it. Anyway, I just want to thank you guys for keeping us all going while we're in these crazy times

and just keep your own time ticking. Thanks. Well, we thank you for that call. Man, what Mary Vincent went through was brutal. Yeah, it really was. I mean, that one is one that really sticks into my mind. You and I talk a lot. Sometimes these cases, they blend in with each other and you lose the details after a period of time. But there's some that never go away.

when you think about Mary Vincent, you think about somebody like Arthur Shawcross. Yeah. Those details don't go away, but others do. It depends on, I guess, the severity, how horrific things, you know, were. But I'm always fascinated when people leave a voicemail or they send in an email with these stories of themselves or family members who had run-ins or, not run-ins, but connect, said some type of connection

with either the killer or in this case, the victim, you know, it's, it's always interesting. Yeah, it is. It really is. Like you said, we get a few of those now and then. It just blows me away. Hi, this is, those are a song from somewhere

United States. How is this song? I just listened to episode 155 of Cucat, the Tucson Apple episode. with something. So, last meal. You guys talk about last meal, and I'm going to say, you know, like goof stuff from the Matrix.

You know, after, you know, you get turned, you take whatever, the new red pill. Yeah, that should be the last meal. Second thing, your daughter. I bet you's the reason why she started listening to you, because she missed your voice while she was away at school. And third thing is, you know, 14 women since 1976 executed versus the 1400 men. Yeah, women usually probably don't commit as many violent crimes,

but also I raised the question, is it also because the justice system, who's women in a different light, and are a little more median on them. Just some food for that. Love you guys in a show, working my way through. So everybody, keep it off, stay safe, and keep your own time of ticket. All right. Appreciate it. So do you get the choice of either the red pill or the blue pill?

And what happens with each one? Yeah. One, you get a Willy Wonka style, explosion of flavor from the pill and the other one, you're just immediately dead. And it tastes like black licorish. And it tastes like Yeagermeister? Yeah. Yeah, I don't know.

It's interesting. And you're actually right about my daughter. She did say that to me one time. She started listening because she wanted to hear my voice. And so I do that now then. Because you miss me? I'm like, man, I miss that voice. Let me turn on the podcast and just let it.

I know you're lying now. Put me to sleep now. Because you hear it so much during the, we? Hello, this is Caroline Mendes. I am from Oceanside, California. It is a place in San Diego. I recently heard you guys show the Richard Farley case, and I heard you guys at the end talking about the sandwich shop, Togo. We actually have a Togo's here in Oceanside, California. It is a sandwich shop. It's a very, very good sandwich shop. If you guys ever come to California, you guys should really try it sometimes.

There's only a few around, so it's very selective. So you would have to go to a very certain place. But yeah, love what you guys do. Keep on doing it and keep your own time ticking. Thank you. Sounds like road trip to me, I guess. Yeah. I like that sandwich place called Bogos.

Buy one, get one. Yeah. Dude, do you like anything where Bogo is involved, buy one, get one? Have you noticed that Bogo, they still call it Bogo, but it's very rarely now buy one, get one free. Now Bogo a lot of times means buy one, get one, like half off or something like that. By two, get the third one free. Like, wait a minute. Well, then it definitely wouldn't be Bogo.

It's not Bogo no more. You tricked me. And I'm assuming I can't doodash in Togo's. Probably not. And if it could, it'd be super expensive. Your wife would not be happy with that. No. All right, buddy, we did have mailbag, which we haven't had in a while.

No, we haven't. Teresa sent in a very nice note for the podcast saying how much she loved it. I noticed right away on the envelope a little slit just about the size of a Harley chip. Yeah. And sure enough, as I read through her card, she said she sent some. And I guess those little things just scooted out somewhere along the way. So somewhere at the big postal facility of lost packages and... There's a whole bunch of Harley chips.

And a pile. Yeah. But that was a nice, nice jester. Thank you. Yeah, it was. I mean, I hate that they didn't make it, but we definitely appreciate it. And she sent the one that is the most rarest Harley chip that you can get. And it's gold-plated.

She might have. So... We'll never know. She'll have to send us an email. That's what I would say. All right, buddy. That is it for a little. another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.