True Crime All The Time - John Wayne Gacy Part2

Episode Date: October 7, 2019

John Wayne Gacy is one of the most infamous serial killers of all time. In the 1970s, Gacy raped, tortured and killed at least 33 boys and young men in the Chicago area. Gacy was very well-known and liked in his community and he enjoyed dressing up as a clown to entertain the neighborhood kids. He was the perfect example of a monster hiding in plain sight.Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the murderous John Wayne Gacy to mark the 150th episode of the podcast. In this second part on Gacy, we dive into Gacy's first conviction for sexually assaulting a 16-year-old boy in Iowa. When Gacy gets out of prison, he heads back to Chicago to rebuild his life. But, not even a year after getting out of prison Gacy commits his first murder.You can support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise and donation informationSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Everyone and welcome to episode 151 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in True Crime. Mike Gibson, Gibby, how are you? I'm good. How about you, man? I'm doing good. Good.

I've had a good week. You and I have a lot going on this week. We do. Reviews are in. Busy. We had a full-blown video, Patreon episode that went out Saturday this past Saturday. this past Saturday, just yesterday. Right.

If you're listening to this on Sunday. And then we've got T-Cat. T-Cat unsolved. It's a busy week. It's crazy week. And then I have criminology on top of that. Yeah, you're busy, man. Yeah, we all are.

But it's good, right? We're putting out a lot of content. We're especially putting out some great content on Patreon with two full-blown episodes this month on video. So I think our Patreon folks are really liking that. So speaking of Patreon, had our new supporters. Let's give some shoutouts. We had Holly Rumble. Hey, Holly. Sarah Malick. What's up, Sarah? Cassie Nags. Nags. I bet you she doesn't nag at all. Not one bit.

Super sweet. Allison Foley. Hey, Allison. Aaron Piles jumped out of our highest level. She's a pile of goodness. Ebony Watson. Hey, Ebony. Jamie Stark jumped out to our highest level. Hey, Jamie. Chelsea, how you doing? I don't know if you remember Chelsea. She's the one that supports us on PayPal. Yeah. She gets so excited when she hears her name that a lot of times she videos it and puts it on Instagram and I get a kick out of it. She ain't camping out.

No. Amanda McMullen. Hey, Amanda. Johnny Webb. What's up, Johnny? Amanda E. Hey, Amanda E. Amanda Day jumped out of her high level.

Really? Amanda Day, thank you. As did Alexandra Duck. Hey, Duck. Autumn Thompson. Hey, Autumn. We had somebody that is calling themselves Gibby, how are you? Hey, I'm doing good.

Alice L. Hey Alice. Kimberly Canobi. One, OB-1. Obi-1's relation. Sure. Kayot. That's Kayot.

Kayot. Kayot. We had Lori. Hey, Lori. Garrett Jones. Make sure I never do that again. Exactly. That was a horrible sound.

Yeah. Hey, Garrett. Sarah and Joe Danahee. Hey, Sarah and Joe. And then last but not least, Jeanette Donahoe. What up? Donahoe. And then if we go back into the vault Gibbs, Gibbs.

This week, we see. selected Molly. What's up, Molly? So long time supporter, big shout out to her. All the new supporters and all the people that support us month after month. We had some great PayPal support as well. Hillary Rotkewitz. Hey, HR, what's up?

And I'm not sure I'm pronouncing that right at all. I did my best. Jennifer Wormuth. Hey, Jennifer. Christoph Brazen. Christoph. And Katie Villa Real. Hey, Katie.

So thank you, everyone. We also had a Patreon. merch winner for September. It was Joseph Fresquez. Really? Fresquez. Fresquez. But I have not been able to get a hold of Joseph.

His email is popping back. So Joseph, reach out. We're waiting on you. All right now we have a true crime all time unsolved episode out. We're talking about a couple of different cases. Sure. Wrapped up into one episode. Yeah.

The disappearance and murder of Jackie Lee Doubtheart in 2011. in 2011 and also the disappearance and double murder of Lyric Cook Morrissey and Elizabeth Collins in 2012. Right. All of this happened in Iowa. Yep. So we'll get into the facts, the rabbit holes, the investigation, all of the suspects, all those things that we do.

Got some good feedback on this last week's reviews are in. We did a bunch of reviews on famous prisons. So kind of a tie-end or true crime stuff. Folsom, San Quentin, some of them were just downright hilarious. I know which ones I don't want to go to out of that list. I don't want to go to any of them. No, but if you had to, if you had to pick one that you had to go to, you know which ones you really wouldn't want to go to. That's true.

That's true. All right, buddy. Are you ready to get into part two of Gacy? I am, man. We got some great feedback on part one. Where do we leave off in part one? It was a little bit of a cliffhanger, right? It was.

But that is one of the challenging parts of doing these multiple part episodes. You have to figure out a good stopping point. And sometimes that makes an episode shorter or longer than what our normal ideal length is. It's kind of tricky. You know, you don't want to dive headlong into a topic and not have enough time to tell the story properly. Yeah. you don't want to give them a little bit and not finish it out. Yeah.

I mean, if you're, if you're going to open up a topic, you got to finish that topic. Yeah. So Gacy is out in Waterloo, Iowa doing his Colonel Sanders impersonation, running three KFC restaurants. He's got a wife. He has two very young children. So it's all finger looking good, man. It's all finger looking good. We said, though, that he's about to lose it all because he's hanging around with young boys,

giving them alcohol. He's testing them to see whether or not they're open to his sexual desire. And that's Gacy's big problem, right? He has a predilection for young boys. And it seems like he can't control it. That's assuming that even if he wanted to control it at all. And I don't know the answer to that. that's something I always wonder about. Gibbs, you wonder about that? I do wonder. How many of these individuals that we talk about do you think see what they are doing is wrong, but even so can't control their urges? Or how many see what they're doing is wrong, but they don't care. And then I think, thirdly, how many don't see what they're doing as wrong at all? And, Maybe there's even more buckets, but those are the three buckets that I was the top three buckets for sure.

And I think a lot of them fit in that first bucket, you know? That deep down they know what they're doing is not right. Right. But the compulsion, the frog demon, the urge is so strong. Yep. Flip some and keeps them from doing the right thing. That they're willing to risk their families. They're willing to risk prison.

They're willing to risk everything. Yeah, it kind of reminds me of Annam House. Remember when he was in the bedroom and he had the angel on one shoulder, the devil on the other shoulder, you know, and I think it's kind of like that. You know, you have the good, the bad, and sometimes that... Which one wins out? Exactly. Well, we know who wins out with Gacy. I mean, that's no secret.

But I do want to make sure that we're straight with the timeline, right? The Gacy's moved to Waterloo in 1966. They had a son. then the next year they had a daughter. In August of 1967, Gacy committed his first sexual crime. Now, I say that knowing full well that there were a number, probably a high number, Gibbs of sexual crimes that happened down in his basement. We talked about that. So I don't know if there's really any way to know if this was his very first or not, but authority. believe it is. And this is definitely the first act that he was caught and punished for.

This is what we talked about at the end of the episode. This is what is going to cause him to lose everything. You know, we mentioned that Gacy was a big wig with the JCs. His first victim, 16 year old Don Borges, was the son of a fellow J.C. So apparently Gacy was paying this 16 year old kid to do some work around his house. Not that out of the ordinary. I think that happens every day all across the country. Yeah. Cheap labor. Yeah, cheap labor, you know, mowing the grass, raking leaves, cleaning out gutters, whatever it happens to be. But after one work session, Gacy invited this boy down into his basement. He got him to drink some alcohol. He pulled out some things from his porn collection. He's showing this kid, you know, all of these types of things. And then he sexually

assaulted him. We mentioned it in episode one, right? This basement became a clubhouse of swords. But the thing about this sexual assault of this 16 year old boy, it wouldn't come out for some time. I do think Gibbs, it's kind of sickening to think about how many young boys, suffered a fate similar to Don Vorhees down in that basement. Yeah. During this time frame. Now, I don't want anyone to think that I'm blaming this 16 year old kid because I'm not. You know, he doesn't tell for like six months.

Well, obviously things happen during that six month period of time. Sure. What happened to this teenager gives, it's not an easy thing to tell someone about. I don't think it's easy today in 2019. I think it was even tougher back in the 1960s. You know, homosexuality was looked at in a completely different light in the 1960s. Oh, night and day, night and day. And I would say especially in places like Iowa, right, the heartland, the Midwest.

I don't think I'm going over the top with that. I think that was true. But in March of the next year, so March of 68, Don Voorhees did tell his father what happened. And like I said, that would have been a very tough conversation to have with your father. Gacy was arrested and reportedly he failed multiple polygraph tests. And you know Gacy, right? He's going to say, sure, I'll take a polygraph because why? Yeah, because he thinks he can beat it.

Sure. I mean, we all know he's cocky. He's cocky. He's smarter than everyone else. Yeah. So he thinks he tried to worm his way out of this thing by saying that this kid had blackmailed him into sex. He said also that the relationship was consensual. Wasn't me.

It was him. When some of these things didn't work, he said, well, this kid's dad is trying to get my position at the JC. Yeah. So he came up with this story. That's a tough gig, man. The JCs. Everybody wants that. It must be very cut to him.

Everybody wants that leadership role right there. Can you imagine a father coercing his son into making up a story about him being sexually assaulted over a position in the J.C? No. Hey, son, I need you to do me a favor. That is, that's just so outlandish. Yeah, he's just full, full, you know what? But now, it does sound very ludicrous, right? When you say it out loud. But then I'm reminded of that woman in Texas who was willing to kill so her daughter could be a cheerleader. Oh yeah. I remember that.

So, you know, on the one hand, you look at some of this stuff and you say, ah, that's so far fetched. It's ludicrous. It would never happen. But at the same time, you can pull a real life example of something just as outlandish. People do crazy stuff, man. That actually did happen. Yeah. They do. I think it was Texas. We haven't done that story, so I'm pulling from a kind of a faded memory there. Yeah, it was definitely Texas. Yeah, I think it was. But we know the dad didn't make this story up to get Gacy's position in the JCs. The police knew it too, especially after another 16 year old came forward and told a similar story about John Wayne Gacy. A lot of stuff happened in that basement. Yeah. It's sad to. say there were kids that were able to corroborate what happened down there. Things not looking so good for the colonel, right Gibbs? Not look good at all.

We mentioned it last episode. His seemingly perfect life was going to vanish. Gacy was charged with sodomy. He was going to go on trial. And it's interesting, I'm reading through all of these different papers, right? back from the 1960s and looking at how they phrase things back then. Some things I guess you just didn't put in print. Now, maybe it was Iowa because a lot of the papers did come from Iowa.

Sure. So kind of Bible heartland. Yeah, but I do think it was a much different time back then just in journalism, you know, all over. Basically, every time they talked about Gacy's upcoming trial, at which Don Voorhees was set to be a witness for the state. They phrased it as Gacy was on trial for a morals act. That's all any of the papers would ever say.

Really? Just a morals act. A morals act. No mention of sexual assault, a sexual crime. No mention of sex or the word sexual at all. Just morals. So you really kind of left to wonder, what does that mean? Yeah.

You know the town. The town had to be buzzing, though. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I guess the paper just was not about to print that he was on trial for the sexual assault of a teenage boy. They just weren't going to do it. But you can definitely get a glimpse of the changes in how things are reported from then to now. I guess you can say maybe the paper back then was thinking maybe he was not guilty. Do we really want to put that out there?

because once you put it out there, guilty or not, it's associated with you. So do you want that word associated with somebody? Yeah, it could be. I really don't know. I don't know what their reasoning behind it was, but much different than today, right? With the 24-hour news cycle, pretty much there's not much that's off limits in our society today. If something happens, they're going to tell you what happened. Yeah.

Who's been charged with what? a lot of times they don't spare the details either. Well, if you try to, the competition is going to not. That's the thing. There's so many different outlets. If it's not you, it's going to be somebody else. So everybody's going to put it out there. But I mentioned in part one that there was some little blurbs in the paper, right,

about Gasey. Didn't have anything to do with crimes, really, or anything like that. I found another one that came from August of 1968. So this is basically while all of this is going on. Yeah. This little blurb said that Gacy's tape player was stolen from his car at this automotive shop where he had left it to have some work done. I thought it was such a strange, literally it's like the little box on a page.

It was so small. The neighborhood theft report. Yeah, it was very strange. But what I think it tells you is obviously this guy's not sitting in jail awaiting his trial. He's out, right? He's getting his car worked on. He was able to make bail and get out and go home. And that's important for what's coming up next because Gacy wasn't about to just let things play out. Gibbs. That just doesn't seem like him. No. Right. He's going to try to influence. the outcome of this trial any way he can't. It's what a guy like Gacy would do. He thinks he's smarter than everyone. He thinks he can control situations.

He's also like a bull in a china shop because he just comes into every event. Like it's not his fault. It's everybody else's fault. And he just blows people over. You know, he just puts to blame everything in his life on everybody else. Bull and a china shop, huh? You don't hear that much anymore.

Bull in a china shop. Yeah, we've discussed it before, right, with other people similar to Gacy. I mention it. They think they're the smartest person in the room. They can talk their way out of anything. Okay, he tried that. It didn't work. Now I have to come up with something else.

And this is something that we'll see with Gacy in the future as well. This, I'm smarter than everyone else mentality. I'll also throw in your thing Gibbs, the bull in the china shop. We're going to see that again down the road too. Yeah. You can also call it a hurricane. So as his trial is drawing near, Gacy promised to pay an 18 year old kid named Russell Schroeder $300 if he would beat up Don Vorhees. Right.

Don is set to testify against Gacy. Gacy wants this Russell kid to beat him up, talk him into not testifying in the trial. I've also seen it reported that he paid this kid $10 in advance and promised to pay off a $300 note on his car. I'll give you $10 now, and the rest later. Was that who was that wimpy that for a hamburger today? I'll be glad to pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today. Exactly. So this is a sound plan, right Gibbs?

Yeah. Very sound. For him. Yeah. To Gacy it is. So this 18 year old lured Don Voorhees to a park, sprayed mace in his eyes and then beat him. And it was reported that the can of mace had the words for police only on it. Just a big thing with Gacy.

And we're going to dive into it later on. He was big on having a car that. looked like a cop car having a scanner. He kind of thought he was a quasi police officer or he wanted to be. I definitely think he thought he was. But Vorhees was able to get away. He jumped into the nearby river to wash the mace out of his eyes. And then he headed straight to the authorities to tell them what had happened.

It didn't take long for the authorities to catch up with Russell Schroeder. And when they sat down with him, He pretty quickly wrote out a statement that said it was John Wayne Gacy who had paid him to do this. So on September 9th, Gacy was arrested again and charged with conspiracy, going armed with intent, attempted perjury, and malicious threats to extort. Ooh, malicious threat. There's a lot going on there. He's busy. He posted a cash bond and got out of jail again.

So he's doing all this stuff. but he's able to post bail, right, and go home. Somehow a little bit later, he picked up another charge. It's a breaking, it was a breaking and entering charge that actually occurred back in on August 30th. He broke into a lumberyard for some reason. I don't know. I could never figure out why. Right.

But police figured it out later and they charged him with that. Prior to his trial, the judge ordered Gacy to undergo a psychiatric evaluation. And the professional said that he had some type of antisocial disorder, but he was definitely fit to stand trial. This is the point where I think Gacy had to make a decision, probably looking at everything that the prosecution has against him. For one, he knows this Don Voorhees is going to testify. The defense is laying it out to him what they're up against. and their recommendation to Gacy was that he plead guilty to the sodomy charge. And that's what he did.

He pleaded guilty on November 7th to sodomy. And I think, but I really couldn't find it exactly. I think most of the other or all the other charges were essentially dropped. And maybe that's why the defense said, hey, do this. They'll drop all the other stuff. And that kind of makes sense. because it'd be hard to agree to just that unless there was a... And it's probably like they're going to get you for this anyway.

You know, when this kid testifies, the jury's going to believe him. They're going to convict you of sodomy. Go ahead and plead guilty. They'll drop all the other stuff. Now, I'm making some assumptions, but I think they're probably pretty valid. Yeah, definitely valid. But it's Gacy's sentencing for the sodomy charge that I found really interesting. Both sides argue.

for what they believed he should get. His defense team, Gibbs said he shouldn't spend any time in prison. You know why? Because it would make him worse when he got out. Now, there's an argument to be made there because Gacy is worse when he gets out. We know that. Yeah. But that's not a great argument for someone that has committed a sexual crime against a child,

an underage kid to say, eh, don't send him to prison because that's just going to turn him into even more of a monster. Right. He has to pay for what he's done, but his defense team really argued against it. They said he would be a much better person if he was just given parole, right? They said he's got this great family life. He's good for the community. Yeah.

He does good things for the community. He has a stable job. He's basically been a model citizen. up until what his defense attorney called, quote, this bizarre behavior. That's what he called it. So that's what they were calling sexual crimes against underage kids back then, bizarre behavior? He's demonstrating bizarre behavior.

So that labels you right there, I guess. To me, that's like eating paper towels or something like that. Yeah. Not committing sexual crimes against children. Like you did? I did eat paper towels. That was kind of bizarre behavior. Really bizarre behavior.

I just found it a very strange choice of words. Now, the prosecution, as you can imagine, they saw it a little differently. The prosecutor said, quote, this defendant gained the confidence of many young people and abused their trust to gratify his desires. Seems pretty spot on. It does. No, I think he nailed it. So the judge weighed all of the arguments. and in the end handed Gacy a 10-year prison sentence,

which I believe was the maximum he could give. One paper back in the day had the headline, Gacy given 10 years in prison on morals charge. Again, they didn't really even want to go into detail about what he had done. Even after he's found guilty, it's still kind of a hidden little thing. After he handed down the sentence, the judge said, unsatisfactory in many respects as imprisonment is, at least that will ensure for some period of time that you cannot seek out teenage boys to solicit them for immoral behavior of any kind.

That's what the judge said. Let's break that down a little bit. You will not be able to do it for some period of time. It's almost as if the judge is saying, I can only keep you off the streets. and these teenage boys say for so long. Once you're out, we know you're going to go back doing what you do. He doesn't say that, but you can kind of draw that inference from what he's saying. Maybe he was thinking, if I could have given you a longer sentence I would have, he didn't say that. But Gibbs, I couldn't find out what, if anything happened to this 18 year old kid who beat up and maced Don Voorhees.

one article said he was released to his parents. I couldn't find anything about him being charged, a trial. There was nothing like that that I could find. Yeah, it's really bizarre. You can't find anything on him. Yeah, so I really don't know if they just dropped, if they never actually charged him with him. I don't know.

The kid was 18, though. I say kid. He was an 18-year-old man, technically, who Maston beat up a 16-year-old boy. you would think there would be some charges. And maybe there were and I just couldn't find him. Or that maybe he had some connections, you know? Maybe his dad knew somebody that knew somebody.

Who knows? So Gacy is sent to prison for a term of 10 years in the Men's Reformatory at Anamosa, which is now known as the Anamosa State Penitentiary. It was built in 1872. 1872. It was old, man. Built from local limestone. And it's called.

the white palace of the West. You got to see a picture of this thing. It is a very funky looking prison. It looks medieval. It looks like a castle maybe that you'd find over in England. Really? Yeah. It's very strange looking for a prison. It gets cold as you know what in there too, man. I bet. That all that limestone. I bet. Gacy's wife filed for divorce immediately after his conviction. I mean, I think she walked out of the courtroom, maybe into another courtroom. But she walked out to find her attorney and said, file now. As soon as he was found guilty. It's pretty hard to blame her on that one, though, right? I can't blame her at all. I would have done exactly the same thing. I think you would have too if you were in her position.

But you have to think, she was thinking she had this great guy, the father of her two young children. He's working at her dad's restaurants. This is a guy that was giving back to the community, well liked in the community. And then all of a sudden, bam, like Emeril would say, your husband is a homosexual who has been sexually assaulting teenage boys in the basement of your home. That's a hell of a lot to process. It's, it is a whole lot to process. And try to make sense of all at one time. Could have a lot of flashbacks, a lot of remembering different events and wondering what was really going on at that time. I think maybe in a situation like that, an event that didn't mean anything back then, now has

significance knowing what you know now. You know that. For sure. You know, why is my husband spending so much time in the basement? Why are these boys over? Maybe she didn't think much about it. Now after everything comes out, she knows. She knows what was going on. And it's horrifying. Yeah. I mean, everything's making sense now. Of course, Gacy contested the divorce. That seems like something he would do. You're not going to leave me. I'm Gacy. So they had to bus this guy's ass back and forth to Waterloo for a bunch of different divorce proceedings. You think they would have found it easier way, you know? I mean, today it would be different. There's no way that they would be doing that today. Yeah, you know, the cost alone, right, to ship this guy back and forth. And but I guess to me what was so strange is the fact that he contested it so heavily.

But once it was finalized, he basically told his wife that you and the kids are dead to me. So he's fighting it. He's fighting it. He loses. Now you're all dead to me. If I win, we're still a family. Yeah. But I lost.

So you're dead to me. I really never did care about you because I can cut my feelings that quick. Yeah, I don't know what her retort was to this comment, but I'm assuming it was good. That's what I've been trying to do anyway, you dumbass. I mean, what do you think I'm trying to do by divorcing you? I'm trying to get away from you. I'm trying to never see you again. You know, Gibbs, the last thing this woman wanted was to ever see this man again.

And I'm sure she never wanted her children to see their father again either. Why would you? No. It's been proven in court that this guy's a monster. Now, I'm reading into her thoughts and feelings, but it seems like it makes sense that that's what they would be. But the thing of it is, it all came true. Gacy never saw any of them ever again for the rest of his life. Years later, after his serial killing was exposed, his first wife, he never saw.

did an interview with the Chicago Tribune. She said that John came across very straight. That was her exact wording. He was a likable salesman who could charm it right out of you. I don't know what it was, but I'm assuming she means whatever he wanted. Sure. He would charm it right out of you. And she would know firsthand.

Yeah. Because I'm sure she was charmed by him as well. And also probably saw him charm other. people. Not just not for sex or anything like that, but to get what he wanted. Right. Gacy appealed his conviction up to the Iowa Supreme Court, but the appeal got dismissed. Then in 1969, Gacy's father died. We spent a lot of time in episode one talking about his father, their relationship, how it seemed as though Gacy was constantly searching for his father's approval. his father's death was said to have been extremely hard on him.

Even though when you look back, this guy treated him horribly, right? We detailed it all out, but it didn't matter. Gacy loved his father and was broken up by his death. He tried to get the prison to let him go to his father's funeral, but they said, uh, no. Not going to happen. No, we don't think so. But 1969 was a rough year for Gacy, right? He's in prison, his wife divorced him, and his father died.

And Gibbs, I want to spend just a little bit talking about the sentence that Gacy received. Ten years in prison. That's no joke. No, no real time. The crimes he committed were horrible, no doubt about that. Although he technically only pleaded guilty to the one charge of sodomy, you and I have talked a lot about people committing offenses. horrible and in some cases I think even more horrible than what Gacy did and all they got was what a year two years some maybe not even a year some just complete probation right from the get go yep so I think it's tough for us to sit here and say what's fair what's not fair based on what he did I'd like to know if Don Vorhees thought it was a fair sentence but 10 years

years compared to many of the cases that we've done, seems like a pretty reasonable sentence to me. Yeah, when I was hearing that, I normally would be flipping out, but I thought, actually. And you didn't? No, because I thought, should you get more? Yes. But knowing what they typically give out, this is on the plus side. Yeah, I don't know that you're ever really truly satisfied with any sentence, but the fact that you didn't say anything about this one, I knew right off the bat, you weren't appalled by it. Let's put it that way. But you probably are going to get pissed here in a minute because Gacy's not going to spend 10 years in prison, right? We know that. His killings

happened pretty early in the 70s. So we know he's not spending 10 years in prison, not even close. We talked about how intelligent we thought John Wayne Gacy was. And I do think he was pretty intelligent. I think he realized very quickly that he needed to tow the line. He needed to not commit any infractions. And by doing so, that would up his chances of getting out early because that's what he did. I think he became a model prisoner. He was a cook at the prison.

which by all counts he enjoyed, he even somehow joined the JCs in prison. I guess the JCs are just everywhere. Big time, man. I don't know. I'm not even familiar with them other than the fact, like you said in part one, they sponsor like these haunted houses around. Yeah. I mean, growing up, I heard about them all the time. I mean, now you hear them on, you know, just a haunted house, but they were more involved in other things back in the day. Back in the day. But he did. He got involved with them in prison. He was like trying to do whatever he could. He helped with this project and that project. But when you look at it, right, it's probably not all that strange with what we know of Gacy. Gibbs, I honestly think that he saw himself as the man in charge in every situation, right? The big guy around town, the big man on campus, whatever. cliche you want to use, the person that everyone looked up to. That's the way he saw himself, whether it was true or not. It was natural that he was going to try to be that same person in prison

while at the same time trying not to get shanked or cornered in the bathroom. Because those are two important things you have to watch out for. Or so I've been told. Oh, that's true. Or I was told by you. I just didn't want to say it. Yeah. I just. I mean, let's address the elephant in the room. It's true. But would you agree with that? It's not that strange that he would try to act on the inside pretty much the same way that he did on the outside. Oh, I think so for sure. Right? He wanted everyone to see him as this figurehead. Yeah, larger than life. Larger than life. I'll take care of it. Yeah. You need something done. I'll get it done. I'm the guy to come to. Right. But his plan worked. His prison record was essentially.

spotless and he was paroled after spending 18 months locked up. So out of this 10 year sentence, he did a year and a half. Now that's where I, that's where you get upset. I know. But still, I compare it to many other cases we've done where they got two years. They were out in 30 days or 60 days or whatever it was. Yeah, I just think people put on a good show when they're in there. They do. Well, some people do. If you're smart, you will because you want to get out. Sure. Now, if you know you're never getting out, it doesn't matter what you do.

You can Richard speck it up and sit around and snort Coke off of other people's members, if you want. That's where you went with that right away. Well, that's what he did. You know, he started taking estrogen. He grew boobs. Yeah. That's what he wanted to be, didn't he? Yeah.

Yeah. Because he knew he was never getting out. It didn't matter. He was going to do whatever he wanted to do. Well, he knew that at that point, he would have greater success in a prison that way than the other way. And he did. Yeah. He got access to drugs.

He didn't get beat up as much, you know. I will say this. It's a far cry from the Richard Speck that you see in that episode of Mind Hunter. Let's put it that way. Yeah. Right. Early Richard Speck to later in prison, Richard Speck. two completely different people.

And there's video to prove it. It's out there and you can see it. I don't want to see it. You don't want to see it. So he's out of prison. He went back home to Chicago to live with his mother. I don't know what other options he had. Ma.

Ma. The meatloaf. He got a job as a cook at a restaurant. He had been a cook in prison. He has all that KFC experience. He had the KFC experience. But then later became a contractor. But it really wasn't long, Gibbs before Gacy was targeting teenage boys again.

He didn't wait long at all. I mean, in 1971, he hadn't even been out a year. Gacy was accused of another sex crime against a teenage boy. It was alleged that he picked up a teenager at the Greyhound bus station and took this kid back to where he was living at the time. The allegation is that Gacy tried to find. force him into having some type of unwanted sexual contact. But the charge was ultimately dropped because his accuser decided not to show up in court. That happens. Yeah.

And we've talked about it before. It's a very tough thing to do, I imagine, to take the stand, especially as a minor, against your adult accuser. It's also, I think, a situation where you can play the what if game. What if this person did testify? And Gacy was found guilty. For one thing, his parole would have been immediately revoked on top of any charges that he would have received for this new thing. And it's kind of important because his parole ended in October of 71.

He just had like a 12 month parole. So keep your nose clean for 12 months. You're good. You're good to go. and there were some reports that his records were essentially sealed after that parole was up. So Iowa never knew anything right about the incident because it never got that far. But when you think about it, if he's convicted, he's not in Chicago in the 70s, most likely to kill 33 boys and young men. Man, oh man.

That's the thing about the what if game. Yeah. But that's a very tough what if game to play. Because the one thing that we don't know, we don't know if it was this teenager's idea not to testify, maybe his parents didn't want him to testify. Either way, you certainly don't want to put any blame on this kid who by now, if he's still alive, probably be in the 60s. and I'm sure has experienced a great deal of guilt in his life after finding out what Gacy

later did. Yeah, he could have. I think most people would feel some form of guilt, you know. Even, even though you can look at it and say, it's not his fault. And he was a teenager. If he was too scared to get up there on the stand, then he was too scared or whatever the situation was, it doesn't. matter what it was. Right. Yeah. You can't put that blame on him. And that happens in other crimes,

right, where the victim is just as too scared to carry on. Right. They don't know what's going to happen. Some people are afraid that there's not going to be a conviction. Yeah. The person's going to go free. And then what happens to me? Who's going to protect me? Right. After I said on the stand, this person did this, this, this and this. But it's hard not to play that what if game. So is it a big shocker, Gibbs, that Gacy was not rehabilitated in prison. Not a shocker, man. He played the system. He knew what he had to do, just to coast through and get out of there.

Well, for one thing, he wasn't really there all that long, right? 18 months. And really, how many people like John Wayne Gacy are actually rehabilitated anyway? How can they be? No, I think their mindsets prevents them from being rehabilitated. Yeah, I mean, how do you rid someone of the compulsions, or as we say, the frog demons, like the ones that Gacy had? Is it possible for prison to even do that? I don't know.

First, you got to get them to admit that they've been doing something wrong. I don't know if Gacy ever thought he did anything wrong. Yeah, I don't know. There's a part of me that believes he was smart enough to know that what he was doing was wrong. but his compulsion was too strong. He was going to do it anyway. You could be right, though. In his mind, he could have thought that what he was doing in a warped way was somehow okay.

Yeah, I have to agree with what you just said there because if he thought it was okay on a normal stance, right, he wouldn't have did everything he did to try to hide it. That's why I lean towards the, I think he knew exactly what he was doing. and that it was wrong, but he was going to do it anyway because he was going to try to cover it up. We're going to see that later on when he gets into murder as well. I think from the track record that you and I have seen. Now, granted, the people that we profile go on to continue to do horrible things, it's tough to say that prison has rehabilitated the people that we've profiled because they're murderers, they go on to murder. I'm sure there are some instances of people coming out of prison,

probably many, and never again doing whatever it was that put them there in the first place. But the question I have is, do those people have the same type of compulsions that a John Wayne Gacy had, that a Jeffrey Dahmer had, that a Ted Bundy had? I don't, I don't know. Yeah, so that would be the better study to look at. Yes. Now, if you broke, into somebody's car or you broke into their house and stole some stuff and went to prison. Okay. Was it a compulsion for you to break into their house? No, you wanted to get something to sell. Let's say, I don't want to go back to prison again. I'm not going to rob any more houses. I think to me, those are completely separate things. Oh, I agree with you on that one for sure.

I think you can get rid of the wanting to rob things and all that, but I think that frog demon very deep inside these guys will always control the outcome. Even if they can get it to sit low for a while like BTK did, eventually it comes back to the surface. Yeah. It's going to control what you do. Yeah, I'm with you. I just don't know how you stamp out something that is inside someone that is this strong.

Because I do believe these compulsions are very, very strong. We've heard it from serial killers. It builds. It builds to the point where they have to do something. It's built up so much they have to release it. And it's like a drug. It's a rush. I just think these guys get such a rush from what they're doing that they can't find a replacement for it.

I don't think there is a replacement. I think it's two things. I think it's what you said, the rush. I think it's also the building, the building. You know, it has to be both of them. satisfied in their mind. And again, I just don't know how prison gets rid of that or changes that in some of these people. If anything, what we see in the people that we profile is that when they come out, they not only do things again, they escalate, right? Gacy's going to do the same thing.

He's not just going to continue to sexually assault teenage boys. He's going to graduate to murder. Yeah. And we see that time and time again. The question is why. As it relates to Gacy, my first thought is that it has something to do with his first prison stand. He doesn't ever want that to happen again. Right, Gibbs? He doesn't want to go back to prison. Would you want to go back? No, nobody wants to go back. So at some point, he must have figured out that to help ensure the same thing didn't happen to him again, what does he have to do? He can't leave his victims alive to tell on him. Nope. Got to cover his trails much better. And he's not alone. We've seen other people graduate to murder for that very reason. But before all of that happens, Gacy had to begin to rebuild his life.

He bought a house with his mom at 8213 West Somerdale Avenue. The house was described as a nondescript ranch house in a quiet section of Norwood Park Township. He's going to be over there by the airport. Yeah, he's by O'Hare Airport. This is in the northwest section of Chicago. But this is the infamous house. This is it.

This is where later on, they're going to find out that Gacy buried the majority of his victims in the crawl space of this house. Had to smell good over there. No, it did not smell good. And we will definitely get into that. Later that year, Gasey, Gacy met a recently divorced woman named Carol Hall, who had two young daughters from her previous marriage. Carol and Gacy had known each other in high school.

They had dated back in high school. And the pair got married in the summer of 1972. Well, that's a good way for get his mom to move out. She's not going to hang around for that. No, I think she had moved out sometime before this. I don't know how far before this, but definitely sometime before the wedding. but what is Gacy doing here? I want to talk about it.

He's gay. He knows he's gay. Why would he get married again? He doesn't have to get married. No. Right? He can just be a gay man. Was it a cover?

Was he trying to rebuild in some way what he had back in Waterloo, Iowa, a wife, two kids? Does it all go back to what we've been talking about, right? He wants to be seen. as that guy, the guy that everyone respects in the area. Right. And I don't know for sure. And I don't know that Gacy ever really explained it, but it definitely seems as though it was something along those lines.

Maybe he wanted to have what he didn't have when he was growing up. You know how his dad treated him? A stable family. Yeah. Maybe he just wanted to show that he could have, be a part of something like that. Maybe. Maybe. I actually never thought about that. It's a good insight.

The pair were married for five years. Much like his first wife, though, his second wife didn't know he was gay, at least not in the beginning. We won't get to it in this episode, but things will obviously come out. She also didn't know that John Wayne Gacy was a murderer because he already was. He killed his first victim in early 1972 before they got married. What is new wife? also didn't know was that there was a body already buried in the crawl space of the home that

she had just moved into with Gacy and her two daughters. This is what she's moving her daughters into. She has no idea what this guy is. And he's so much worse now than what he was in Waterloo, Iowa. He was a bad guy then. He's going to be so much worse. So I know. know we talked about it and we're talk about it again, but just hearing that and thinking down the road later. What, as the body start to pile up underneath in this crawl space? Yeah. Yeah, we'll spend some time talking about it.

It's just that alone is a chore. There's a lot of work. Yeah. Yeah. And we'll touch on it. And you kind of already hinted about the smell. The smell was said to be overwhelming. We'll talk about it a little bit at the end of this episode, surrounding.

this first murder, probably get into it much more in part three. Gacy's first victim was a teenager named Timothy Jack McCoy. There seems to be a lot of discrepancy on Timothy's age. I saw it listed in a lot of places that he was 15. I saw it listed in a lot of places that he was 16. So he was either 15 or 16. I didn't want to commit because I couldn't find the right answer. Yeah, I think you're good right there where you're

at. Well, and you know what cracks me up is these are very well respected papers. This is not the podunk times, right? Getting getting something wrong. I mean, we're talking about big Chicago papers. We're talking about big papers in Atlanta, New York, Los Angeles, having different ages. I thought that was very strange. Really strange. McCoy was. traveling by bus back home to Nebraska from Michigan. So he lived in Nebraska. He had been in Michigan visiting family. Family put him on a bus back to Nebraska, but he had to stop in Chicago because he had a 12-hour layover. This was January 3rd, 1972. Gacy picked him up at the Greyhound bus stop and took him back to his house. This was a big thing for Gacy. This gray hound. This gray hound.

town bus stop. I think he did a lot of cruising there. We'll probably get into it more in part three. So if you were a predator back in the 70s, that was probably the one of the better places to stalk your prey. Well, it was for Gacy. It seemed. Well, I guess you have to ask the question. Why would that be? Gives, who rides the bus? People that are traveling, right? So if they're stopped at a bus station, especially on a layover, they're not from the area. They're going somewhere else, either back to where they're from or to another location, is that a target for a predator that is not going to be missed right away, is going to be harder to identify, has no ties to the area. I'm just kind of thinking out loud as to why that might have been a good place to search for.

victims. Yeah, no, I think it's perfect. Transiate. Yeah, you have that aspect as well. There are some different accounts of how this first murder happened. Some people believe it was an accident. Gacy has said that when they woke up the next morning, Thomas McCoy tried to stab him with a knife, but he got it away and he ended up stabbing him. There's some speculation that this teenager was making breakfast, using the knife to cut up things for breakfast. Part of that is the fact that some people have reported that he had a table set for two. There were things out, but Gacy misread the situation and thought he was trying to attack him. However, it went down. It ended with John Wayne Gacy stabbing Thomas McCoy to death in his

bedroom and then burying him under his crawl space. But years later, Gacy would say that he had what he called Gibbs a mind-numbing orgasm as he killed this teenage boy. So I think from that, it's almost like there was no doubt. After this first kill, he was going to do it again. You know, judging from his words, he enjoyed the experience immensely. the experience of killing another human being. It takes me back to like Tommy Lynn sells and other ones that explain it just like that.

And it's really disturbing to me. You mean the fact that somehow someone would get sexual gratification from taking another person's life. Yeah. It makes no sense. To 99.9% of us, right, listening to this podcast, it doesn't mean. make any sense. Now, there might be 0.1% out there that it does make sense to, and those are the ones I'm worried about. There's a lot of ways to get sexual gratification without hurting anyone. That's the part that I just don't understand. But in these people, right, some wire is not

connected where it should be. It's crossed. It's whatever you want to call it. And the sex and violence combo, you know, when they become intertwined, it is something else. It's dangerous, man. Now, Timothy McCoy would later be found in the eventual excavation of Gacy's crawl space that will cover later in detail. But at the time Gibbs, they couldn't figure out who he was. It wasn't until 1986 that an orthodontist and a specialist in forensic dentists, was able to identify McCoy through dental records and x-rays that were taken in Florida

back when he was 10 years old. That had to be extremely tough on McCoy's family. Because there were some things found in the crawl space when Gacy was caught that pointed to the possibility that it could have been Thomas McCoy. Add to that the fact that he had this 12-hour layover in Chicago and the fact that he never made it back on the bus, there was a high probability that he was a victim of John Wayne Gasey. But to not know for sure until so many years later, that must have been extremely difficult on his family.

Well, the unknown, you know, not knowing. Yeah, kind of knowing, but not knowing for sure. Yeah, just thinking that it's possible, but did it really happen? Right. Wanting that confirmation. Yes. as you would say closure closure so gacy has murdered his first victim he's buried his first victim

in the crawl space under his home something that we know he's going to do many more times over the years a few dozen at least a few dozen but after this first burial his new wife carroll and his stepdaughters they moved into the house and you mentioned it right the smell They began to notice a foul odor. Carol's mother would come over to the house sometimes. She noticed it. Friends, when they came over, they noticed it. They said stuff about it.

So pretty quickly, I think Gacy figured out that he had to do something. So he went back into the crawl space and he had to cover the body with something. Concrete, maybe some other things, but definitely concrete. He used concrete to cover up. the body in an attempt to cover up the smell, right? That's what he's really trying to do. And I think Gacy learned from this first murder and he would later apply some of these same techniques after later murders and burials. But, and Gives, we've talked about this many times, the smell of death is so powerful. It is extremely hard to mask or cover up. So even after,

going back in and putting concrete over the body, people still made comments about the odor. And there's only one body there. Like you said, eventually there's going to be dozens of bodies in this crawl space. There's no way to stop that smell. Probably give that guy in Tennessee run for his money for the body farm. The guy that runs the body farm. but every time somebody would bring it up, right? What is that smell?

Gacy would tell them that, eh, he's got some stagnant water sitting in the crawl space. That's what you're smelling. Now, come on. I know some, you know, stagnant water can cause some odor,

but it's never going to be as powerful as the smell of death. Yeah, I think you kind of have a feeling what stagnant water would smell like, what sewer would smell like, what sewer would smell like. And what death? Yeah.

I mean, we've all at one point that probably smelled a rotting animal. Yeah, even going over one in your car, sometimes you, that'll waft up through the vents. Did you say waft up? I said waft. Woffed up.

Woffed up. Yeah. You just don't hear that often today. Yeah. I want to give you, I'm always trying to expand your vocabulary. You know that. Woffed up.

But I think we've probably all smelled that. And that's just a small version. You've got the window shut. It's coming in through a vent. It's a small animal that may not have even been out there very long. Right. We're talking about dozens of dead bodies that have been there for quite a period of time. Yeah.

That smell is going to be something. I don't even know how you can eat in that house. I'm surprised that. as many people throughout the years believe this stagnant water line as did. Because there was a lot of people in and out of that house over the years. All right. I think this is a good stopping point for part two of John Wayne Gasey. We've got a lot more to cover, though.

We have a lot in store for part three, which will be out next Sunday night. It's going to be good. We've only covered one murder. There's 32 other murders to cover. And we'll go into as much details we can. There are definitely more details about some victims than others. That's for sure. We've got some voicemails, Gibbs.

You want to hear those? Let's hear the voicemails. Hi, this is Courtney from Nashville, Tennessee, and I just want to let you guys know that I absolutely love your podcast. I have listened to every single episode, and I look forward to the future ones to come. I wanted to make a suggestion on a podcast. I don't know if you guys have heard about the Pulse Massacre in Orlando, Florida. That's originally my hometown. But it definitely sent a shockwave of devastation.

And I think, you know, it would bring awareness about, I guess, the dangers and, you know, just how much it devastated, you know, my entire hometown. on anyways, I thank you guys for everything that you do and keep you on time ticking. All right. Thank you, Courtney. We appreciate that. I do remember that, Gibbs, pretty vividly. Yeah.

That was the Pulse Nightclub massacre. And it's on our list. We'll eventually get to it. Yeah. We definitely will. But thank you. Hi. I just wanted to say that I love your podcast.

And unfortunately, I got to spend a few years. with the worst of the worst in Minnesota for women. And that taught me a whole lot, but so does your show. It just kind of makes me a little more self-aware of what's really going on around me and just not get too complacent now that I have my freedom back. So thank you so much for everything you guys do. I absolutely love your show. And I'm team both of you because you're amazing.

Thanks. All right. Awesome. First of all, we're glad you're free. Yeah. Just like Gibby. You have a lot in common with Gibby. Good to be free.

you say that a lot good to be free but we hear that a lot right gibbs that you know people learn stuff from the episodes about the killers that we profile but i think on top of that it just makes them more overall aware of situations surroundings i think that's a good thing oh yeah for everyone i know i talked to somebody just the other day they're like i learned that from you guys that's awesome I'm like, well, thank you. You're like, that's the first time I've ever taught anyone anything. Yeah. Yeah, and it's actually, it was Fergie that probably taught it.

But I will say, if you do not have a T-Cat safety whistle, you need one. I make sure my wife has one. Both of my daughters have one at all times on their key ring. It is super loud. And it says true crime all time. What else could you want? Perfect. Hi, Mike, you had just stated in the most recent episode.

so that you, if you had a photographic memory, you would then be unable to lose an argument with your wife. That's adorable that you think you can win an argument with your wife. Just thought I'd share that thought. I actually got a kick out of that one. First of all, I think it was her laugh that got me. And also the fact that she's right. Even with a perfect memory.

Even being right, Gibbs, does not mean I'm going to win the argument. We know that as men. Being right isn't always the deciding factor. No. There's other factors involved. Many factors. We know what those are. Hey, Mike and Giddy.

This is Britt. I am out of Kentucky, but pretty close to Cincinnati. So not too far from you guys. Anyhow, I love your show. I travel for work. So you guys keep me company on the road quite a bit. And I just wanted to call in because I'm listening to the David Copenhefer. episode and you guys were cracking me up talking about who you'd call in a ransom situation.

But I feel like you left out the Punisher. I think I'd be calling the Punisher. Anyway, thanks a lot. Y'all have a good one. Bye-bye. So Gibbs, this was a big topic on social media. I got a lot of emails about it. People had some really good ones that we left out.

I think the Punisher is a great one. The other one that's really big that we left out was. was Liam Nissen. Oh, yeah. And taken. He actually has to go get his wife back. I think in the second one, he has to get his daughter back, or is it vice versa. In one, he has to get his wife and another one he has to get his daughter.

First one is his wife. Second one is his daughter. I think the third, it's both. But we say he has a special set of skills. So how can we forget that one? What do we say, John Wick? We said Jason Bourne. I've gotten a lot of good other examples.

But Liam Neeson is the big one. And I think the Punisher's a good one too. Yeah. All right, Gibbs, we had mailbag. Good. Our friend Kelly Franz. Oh, yeah. From Canada sent us a Toronto Raptors Championship banner.

Really? Which is very cool. And sent me some Starbucks coffee that you can only find in Canada. The Canadian version. Also sent a hat. Oh, there you go. And Kelly wanted to make sure that you knew he was a man. Was there any doubt?

No, I don't know if he's a Patreon member. You probably said, oh, thanks, she's something. I might have. You do that. Yeah, maybe. Our friend Brad sent us some pizza money. Yeah. Cool.

So that's always awesome. Yeah. And just so you know, Brad's a guy. Brad is a guy. Yeah. So that's it. That's it for another episode of True Crime all the time. I'm excited,

about part three of Gacy next week. Is excited the right word? I never know. I think it's okay to be excited. To tell the story. Tell the story. Yeah. Obviously,

we're going to be talking about a lot of victims. There's going to be a lot of tragedy. It's sad what happened. But at the same time, Gacy is a fascinating character and it's a part of history. And to tell that history, to me, is enjoyable. It is. I mean, it's what we like to do.

We like to research and tell these stories. So that's it. So for Mike and Gabi, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.