True Crime All The Time - Jonathan Scott Graham

Episode Date: April 7, 2025

In the early morning hours of August 16th, 1986 an intruder entered the home of 27-year-old Gary Larson and stabbed him to death before raping Gary’s fiancee. The case was unsolved for almost twenty years, until a peeping tom was arrested in 2004, when authorities noticed similarities to the suspect in the cold case. Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss Jonathan Scott Graham. Graham had a history of peeping around his neighborhood. When he was arrested on something unrelated to the murder, the authorities noticed striking similarities to the murder of Gary Larson. However, another suspect had been identified and charged years prior.You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 429 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Give me, how are you? Hey, I'm doing good. How about you? I'm doing great. Yeah. We talked about it on Patreon, but my wife is on her spring break.

She is. So she's down in Florida with her mom. Every day I get a picture of the drink of the day. So it seems like she's having a good time. What about the other pictures she's sending? Just those. Oh, okay. Just those.

Just checking. You're trying to get me to admit something that's not happening. Maybe. Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shoutouts. We had Brad O.H. Ayo. Schafen. Hey, Schafen.

So that's pretty cool. Audrey Fetzer. What's going on, Audrey? Tats and Cats. I gotta love some Tats and Cats. Kelly Murphy. What's going on, Murphy? Jace Thornock.

Well, thanks, Thornock. Erica C. C? Yeah. Yes. Yes. Colleen. F. Hey, F. Mary MC. What's going on, MC? Lonnie Davis. Thanks, Lonnie. Brenda. Well, good old

Brenda. And last but not least, Chad O'Neill. Well, never last, Chad. No, never last. And then we go back into the vault. This week, we selected Jody Surrell. Oh, thanks, Jody. So, appreciate the new Patreon support, the continued support. We also had a great PayPal donation from Gentry Sumroll. Man, Gentry. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you very much. So give you. So give you. Right now, we have an episode out on True Crime All the Time Unsolved. We're actually headed to Scotland. Your hometown. Yeah.

My hometown. It is a country, but it is where my ancestors are from. But we're talking about this Scottish banker named Alster Wilson. He was gunned down outside his front door. And, you know, there's a lot of mysterious things about the case. So check it out. Yeah. It's a good one.

Hey, don't forget, CrimeCon coming up in September. September. It's the, yeah, that time right there. If you're going, just use our promo code T-Cat, T-CATT at CrimeCon.com. And come hang out with us. Yeah, hang out with us. All right, buddy, are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime all the time? I am ready.

We're talking about Jonathan Scott Graham in the early morning hours of August 16th, in 1986. An intruder entered the home of 27-year-old Gary Larson and stabbed him to death before raping Gary's fiance. The case was unsolved for almost 20 years until a peeping time was arrested in 2004 and authorities noticed similarities to the suspect in the cold case. And these are very interesting types of cases. You know, anytime that you have a, uh, a, uh, a, uh, a, pretty cold case. And obviously 20 years is cold. It is. As you and I do a lot of those on unsolved. But the way that a cold case is solved is always very fascinating. Because it's not like, you know, they solved it within a week, right? They saw somebody on video. They went to talk to them.

They put everything together. The person confessed. This is 20 years later, catching somebody doing something similar and noticing that there were similarities. To me, that's always amazing. It is. Especially knowing what's likely the original investigators are probably not even part of the case. May not be at that point, right? 20 years is a long time. It is.

Gary Dale Larson was born in 1958 and grew up in Muskegee, Oklahoma. Sources didn't provide a lot of information about his life, But his sister, Diane, was interviewed for the show, solved and said that she was 12 years older than Gary and loved being his big sister. Oklahoma. Got to love Oklahoma. Why do I have to love Oklahoma? Well, outside the fact that you did the play Oklahoma. Oh.

It's a nice state, man. Yeah. Surrey with the fringe on top. That's you. Twelve years, though, is a pretty big gap. That is. It's almost like a second mom. Okay. I'll go with you on that.

Yeah. I hate to disagree with you anymore because people just give me crap for him. No, but you know, if you had a sister. No, you're right. Yeah. If you have a sister who's 12 years older than you, she's going to be taking care of you all the time. Yeah. Telling you what to do. Gary graduated from college and became a CPA. His friends described him as an outgoing, bright young man who was kind and down to earth. Kind and down to earth. I like that. Those are good qualities. They are. At the time of his death, he was living in Edmond, Oklahoma, and was engaged to a woman whose name was not published in sources. So obviously, we're going to be calling this woman, his fiancé, because we don't know her name. Yeah.

On the night of August 15, 1986, Gary and his fiance went to a performance at the lyric theater in nearby Oklahoma City. They went to a restaurant and a bar before heading back to, you know, Gary's house. His fiancee planned to spend the night with him. So they got ready for bed and they left the bedroom window open because it was a warm night. They had just fallen asleep when shortly after midnight on August 16th, they heard a noise in the house. Gary went to investigate but found nothing as his fiancee was drifting off to sleep. Gary got up to check things out one more time. Don't we all do that when you hear something? They're like, what heck is that?

It happens to me all the time. Yeah. And it's definitely scary to be woken up by a sound that you don't know, hey, you know, is this coming from inside the house? Is it, you know, the dogs making noise? Right. Is it something outside? But for me, it's really hard to just go back to sleep. Like, I have got to go check it out.

Because if not, I'm going to just sit there and lay there and think about it. Problem with you is that you go full out, Rambo, I'm going to check this out and, you know, take no prisoners. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I put the black paint under my eyes. I know you do. Everything. Just in case.

I've been down here where all sudden you think you hear something upstairs. And I'm like, what are you transferring into? You're like transforming into it. I grab a weapon, do a roll, a barrel roll. Which is very funny because sometimes it takes you three or four times before you actually get the barrel roll down. I'm not as surprised I used to be. And then you're like, hey, can you give me a hand, get back up?

I'm like, okay, this is real threatening. So Gary gets up to check things out. His fiancee heard a gasp and a groan of pain. When she called out for Gary, he didn't answer. She got up to check on him and saw a stranger across the hall. She later said he was wearing only a pair of men's briefs and gloves. And he was armed with a knife. Okay, first of all, very scary to hear a sound.

We just talked about that. Even more scary and much more scary to see a stranger inside your home. And then I'll take it a step further and say, even scarier and a little weird too, for this stranger to be only wearing briefs and gloves. I think it's a little freaky, you know? I mean, that's how you sometimes come into my house. And I'm like, how did you even get from your truck to the house? I wait until I get to the garage door area.

Then I drop my pants. Uh-huh. And then knock on the door? Just so you can see my face when I open. Yeah, yeah. But, you know, he's also armed with the knife. So no doubt. a very scary situation.

Absolutely. According to the Daily Oklahoma, she hid in the bedroom. A few minutes later, she went into the adjoining bathroom, which had a second door that opened into the hallway. She peeked into the hall.

That's when the stranger saw her and chased her through the bathroom into the bedroom. He tackled her on the bed and a struggle ensued her. The man bound her and raped her for three hours at knife point.

Brutal. Wow. Yeah, these are hard things to talk about because in your mind, you can't help but try to imagine. You don't want to, but you're imagining what this woman went through. And I think you can also kind of see why sources don't name her. The man didn't speak much, but she remembered him saying, time is of the essence while deciding what to do with her. Gary's fiance focused on talking to the man and trying to reason with him. So he wouldn't kill her. Strange thing to say, right? Time of us is of the essence. Yeah, it's a, it's a very lawyerly type business term. Yeah, something you'd see in a contract. Yeah. Not for someone to say why are they doing a terrible act. Committing a violent sexual crime. But the one thing I will say is,

and you do hear this quite often. I think this is a smart tactic on her part, right, trying to talk to this person. Humanizing. Yeah, you've often heard people talk about that, right? How can you get this person to see you as a human being? Because that might be your best chance to escape the situation. Now, what's already happened to her is horrible.

Sure it is. should never happen. But she's still in a fight for her life. When everything was over, the man tied her with rope and left her in the bedroom closet. She heard him rummaging through the house before he left. She managed to escape and discovered Gary's body in the dining room. She then called the police. So obviously what happened to Gary was horrible because he lost his life. But what happened to this woman was, you know, terrible as well. I mean, she went through a very vicious, a very long-lasting sexual attack and then had to find her fiance dead. Very traumatic.

Detective Scott Day, then a patrol officer was the first one to arrive at the home. He found Gary's fiance at the front door with blood on her body. She said he's dead. I know he's dead. Is he dead? Gary's body was found in the corner of the dining room. There were two massive stab wounds to his chest and numerous other stab wounds on his abdomen. In total, Gary was stabbed 24 times.

Yeah, how do you recover from 24 stabs? Yeah, and I think a lot of times most people wouldn't, especially when two of those are directly to the chest, maybe even to the heart. But I do think in a lot of cases, you know, obviously, the fiance is going to be looked at. And here's a situation where the fiance was actually inside the home is covered with blood. They're going to have to look at her,

try to figure out if she could have possibly been involved in it. There was a blood stain on the wall above Gary and a large dent about the size of his body, indicating he crashed into the wall before he collapsed. I'm sure he did. or he got slammed into the wall before he collapsed. Yeah, one or the other.

On the floor next to his body was the outline of a bloody bare footprint, which investigators thought was unusual. And I'm sure they did if they're thinking this is not Gary's or his fiance. Right. Because to me, I don't imagine a lot of burglars kind of going in barefoot. Yeah, but this one decided to drop his, take his pants off. and he was just in his briefs. So maybe.

And gloves. And gloves. So maybe he took off his socks and shoes with his pants and his shirt and said, okay, I'm going to go in just with the like this. Tidy Whitey's only. Exactly. The police decided to use luminal in the house, which at the time was relatively new. The luminal revealed another bare footprint on the carpet and a trail of footprints leading

to the main bedroom. There was evidence of. a struggle in the bedroom and blood stains on the sheets. Most likely transfer stains from the perpetrator. Authorities also found a bloody footprint in the bathroom and removed the tile to store as evidence. And the footprints didn't match Gary or his fiance, which confirmed they belonged to the killer. Good piece of evidence.

Yeah. Great piece of evidence. Now, you got to find somebody to match it up to. Well, that's true. That's the hard part. investigators found a cut window screen outside the house which showed the killer's point of entry. And I don't know about you, Gives, but I feel like we've been talking about cut window screens in a lot of the episodes that we do lately.

We have. Which is a scary thing. Now, I know in certain parts of the country, maybe, certain times of the year, or just in certain decades, it's more likely than not that some people are going to leave their windows open. Sure. People love fresh air. Yeah, it's great. The problem is it's also a pretty easy entry point. It really is. For someone who's looking to do something bad. Gary's house had a small wall extending from it with bushes that were higher than the primary bedroom window. Investigators found impressions in the dirt under the window, suggesting someone was there for an extended period of time, most likely watching the house.

Okay. Something else that to me is a very scary thing. Definitely creepy. The thought that someone is kind of just camped out casing you, casing your house. Stalking. Yeah. Stalking. That's a good word.

Robbery was ruled out as a motive because nothing was taken from the house. The suspect was believed to be a peeping time. who was escalating his crimes. And Gary was likely an obstacle in the way of a sexually motivated crime. So, you know, if we kind of take everything we know so far, right, this is a person who is thought to have been kind of watching the house, maybe a peeping Tom, we don't know for how long. Right. You know, this could have gone on for X number of nights.

I'm sure he had seen Gary's fiance at some point, maybe developed a fixation with her or just decided that she was going to be his next target. So either random or stakeout. Yeah, it could have been random. I lean more towards stakeout just because of this, this ledge thing and the, the impressions that they found in the dirt, which they, they thought meant somebody had been kind of there for an extended period of time. Officers canvass the neighborhood, but no one saw or heard anything unusual despite the fact

that the bedroom window was open and Gary's fiance screamed for help during the attack. I know sometimes it seems unbelievable that no one would hear that. But you think about that time at night, most people were asleep. Yes. And I know you're a heavy sleeper. Very, very heavy. And we also use like a big fan. Right.

It's kind of a white noise slash just, you know, I can't sleep in silence. So that's another thing that kind of would probably prohibit me hearing something outside of my own home. It's going to drown out those outside noises. Yeah. And maybe not everybody else had their windows open. That's true. So that would make it maybe a little tougher. And we don't know the layout of the neighborhood.

don't know how close together the houses were, but this is not the same type of situation like, you know, the, the kiddie Genevese story. Yeah. You know, the one where a bunch of people heard it. Some people saw it. They just didn't call for help. It's not that same scenario. Gary's fiance was taken to the hospital. She was injured and traumatized, but her main concern was for Gary and his family. And that's amazing. It really is. You know, when you think about it, what she went through was horrific and hard to imagine. But she's not thinking about herself. She's thinking about her fiance and her fiance's family. What are they going through? Tells you about her character. Gary's sister, Diane Clary recalled she was so good does when she was so hurt. And she was beat up,

scraped up and had like rug burns all over every joint she had and she was trying to comfort us she was really very special she was just crushed well she lost the love of her life yeah i mean you know here's a couple planning to get married but they hadn't gotten married yet you think back to that period that's kind of like for many the most blissful yeah that you'll ever be I'm not saying people aren't happy once they get married, but that kind of courtship period before is all smiles and rainbows most of the time. Sure it is. Yeah.

According to Detective Scott Day, Gary's fiance was legally blonde without her glasses, and she wasn't wearing them when she was attacked. So her description was vague. She didn't know the suspect, who she described as a white male in his early 20s, with blonde hair, a scraggly beard, and possibly a mustache. He was between 5-9 and 5-10 and weighed about 170 pounds. I mean, not a bad description, though. It's not a bad description, but it's also, I think, one that would fit quite a few individuals.

Sure. You know, 5-9, 5-10, that's a very average height, 170 pounds, that's an average weight. There's nothing really standing out. there. Now, long blonde hair, scraggly beard, maybe that rules out quite a few people, but... Yeah, it might help limit it down a little bit. But if I'm that person known that someone's coming after me, maybe I'm shaving my face and cutting my hair. Yeah. Or even dyeing your hair. Oh, yeah. Which you do anyway. Hey now. Oops. Sorry, I didn't mean to let that one out of the bag. Investigators found it puzzling that the killer was partially undressed in barefoot,

but speculated that he might have removed his bloody clothing after killing Gary. Gary was larger than the killer. But according to Detective Dennis Dill, per the Daily Oklahoma, it was almost a classic textbook assault. He hit the vital organs, which caused a lot of blood loss and loss of strength. Larson didn't have a chance. Like you knew what to do. Or got lucky.

Yeah, one or the other. On August 19th, 1986, the book. police released a composite drawing of the suspect. An officer told the public that a man matching the description was seen in the area on the evening of the murder. And I'm sure they went door to door, talking to all the neighbors. Investigators also ran background checks on Gary's friends and business associates. Gary had been married before, but there was no evidence of any issues with his ex-wife. It was said to have been an amicable divorce. Gary's finances were in order

and there didn't appear to be any suspicious business dealings. So nothing really jumping out yet. No. They haven't struck on anything that's leading them in a certain direction. One detective told the show salt. This guy wasn't just an angel. We couldn't find anything. So for the detectives,

this has to be kind of frustrating because you want to try to find some type of lead to get you going. Yeah, I mean, you don't want your victim to, to be a bad person, but it would be helpful for the investigation if you had something to go on, right, a business deal gone bad, something to show a motive on the part of someone. Gary's fiance also had no known enemies. The police looked into all the men. She knew as potential suspects, but none of those leads panned out.

The entire community was fearful, especially because the police believed the killer. lived in or was familiar with the area. Well, I definitely would not leave my windows open after this. No, no, absolutely not. But, you know, think about living in a neighborhood and learning that a man was killed in his home, his fiance was raped in the home. Yeah. I mean, I think an entire city is going to be fearful, but you're especially going

to be fearful in that neighborhood. if police think that the person might live there. Yeah, because now are you thinking, is he lingering around? Well, it sounds like he was kind of stalking, so maybe he's going to be stalking another house soon. It's going to be scary stuff. Edmund experienced another tragedy, just four days after the murder.

On August 20th, 1986, Postal worker Patrick Sherrill entered the Edmund Post Office and shot 20 of his coworkers, killing 14 and injuring six before he fatally shot himself. Detectives were still working on Gary's case, but pretty much all media attention shifted to the mass shooting. And this was huge, right? This was absolutely a huge case.

I remember when this happened. You weren't working for the post office at this time. You were still probably in school. I don't even think I was in high school yet. I know you were on to your fourth PhD. I was still probably in junior high. But this was a big mass shooting. It also might be kind of the,

if not to start, one of the main things of that whole going postal term. I was just thinking the same. Seven months later, the FBI released a profile of the killer, which confirmed police suspicion that the murder was random. Adorty's released a profile in hopes of refreshing the public's memory of Gary's. case. The FBI concluded, per the daily Oklahoma, the killer is familiar with the neighborhood

and may even live in the area. The crime was one of circumstance, probably committed under the influence of alcohol and or drugs, and was not planned. The killer blames women for his own failures and may have had violent confrontations with women before. Those who know him may suspect that he is capable of such a crime. Unless he is financially dependent on another person, he lives in subsidized or low-rent housing. Larson's assailant was a single white man who's had difficulty establishing long-term relationships with women and is uncomfortable about this situation. He likely has a short temper and erratic behavior that has caused problems in his relationships, employment, or finances. So he's a woman hater.

And he's frustrated with women. Yeah. And that's why he hates women. Now, we've talked about this before. You know, when you think about a profile, a lot of them are very similar. There are reasons for that. But they do tend to be fairly similar. Yeah.

Now, we know in this case it's a white male because we have a surviving witness. Sure. So it's not like they're pulling that one out of a hat. So the FBI saying that they may be living in the area, maybe in some low-income subsidized housing. Obviously, if you're anywhere near that, you are scared. Did you say that you have this killer and serial sexual predator living right next to you? Yeah. Yeah, you're definitely scared.

But also may even live in that exact area. But the rest of the stuff, you know, difficulties with relationships, with women, erratic behavior. I understand why they say all those. Sure. According to the profile, people who knew the killer probably noticed behavioral changes. After reading news stories about the murder, the killer might have become withdrawn and likely leaned on drugs or alcohol to cope with his guilt. He might have left the area temporarily.

The man was likely aware that his acquaintances suspected him of the crime and viewed them as possible threat. The FBI also believe the killer possessed tendencies indicative of a serial killer, and authorities feared he would strike again. Well, if he did this one so easily, maybe he would. Yeah, I can understand the rationale behind all of it. You know, obviously, there was something compelling him to commit this crime. And so far, he's gotten away with it. So it's logical, right, that that urge is going to come back again. Yeah.

And he's going to do it again. Now, I've never set around after hearing about some local crime, murder, and thought, oh, that's my one friend. Have you? No. No. I've never had a thought that, oh, well, you know, maybe it could be so-and-so. Right.

Never once crossed my mind. That's reassuring. According to a reporter from the Daily Oklahoma, the FBI reached out to the paper. and asked them to put out stories profiling the killer and making statements that authorities hoped would enrage him and get him to show himself. And, you know, this is interesting, right, using the media. A lot of the times the media is trying to get information from the authorities that the authorities don't want to give up. Here you have, as we've seen before, right, in real life and especially in movies. the authorities using the media to kind of draw out the killer.

Sometimes that partnerships need it. It reminds me a little bit of the Hannibal Lecter one, the Red Dragon one. Oh, yeah. They use Philip Seymour Hoffman's character. You know, he's like this journalist for a tabloid. And they have him print a bunch of stories that are actually made up, but are meant to enrage the killer. They do because he ends up killing Philip Seymour

Hoffman. Yeah. Just over three years later, on August 29th, 1989, 25-year-old John Brent Johnson was charged with first-degree murder, first-degree rape, and first-degree burglary in connection with the case.

Police believed Johnson was the one who broke into the home, stabbed Gary to death, and raped his fiance because they surprised him during a burglary. So, this is kind of a little bit of a different take on the crime, right? There was kind of a thought that maybe this was a sexual predator casing the house only killed Gary because Gary was in his way of getting to his actual intended victim. Right. Now we have the thought that maybe this was a

burglary gone wrong, gone wrong. Johnson had a criminal record. In November, November 1987, he pled guilty to grand larceny, two burglaries, and possession of a stolen vehicle. He was sentenced to six years, but was released on June 5, 1989. Johnson came under suspicion when the police came to his workplace to question him about a July 1989 robbery. He fled out of a back door and had not been seen since. Detective Dill believed Johnson's 1987 mugshot looked similar to the composite sketch of the suspect in the Larson case.

The police wanted to compare the crime scene evidence, mainly the bloody footprint, to Johnson in hopes of finding a match. But Johnson's on the run, right? And he was on the run for a number of weeks. In September, it was announced that he would be featured on America's Most Wanted. And you and I talk about America's Most Wanted.

lot. To me, if you were a criminal back when that show aired, hearing an announcement that they were going to profile you would probably cause you to start shaking in your booties. For sure. To the point you're probably like, okay, time for me to move on from where I'm at right now. Yeah. I got to change up my look. I got to, you know, get to a different country. That show was watched by a lot of people. And a lot of people were caused. and or turned in, you know, by being profiled on that show. Yeah, you don't want to be part of that last segment where they go, update. We got so-and-so.

On September 23rd, 1989, Johnson turned himself in with his attorney before the episode could air. So obviously, he must have found out that he was going to be profiled on December 22nd, 1989, Gary's fiance testified against Johnson at his preliminary hearing and identified him as the man who raped her. She testified that about 20 minutes after she and Gary went to sleep. They heard a noise. Gary got up to investigate and she heard him scream. She said it was a gut scream. From deep inside, he was in pain, dire pain.

That'd be tough retelling that story. Well, and just reliving that scream, that's probably not going away. She testified that the intruder startled her in the bedroom. She struggled against him and screamed loudly, hoping to attract hell. She later tried to reason with him and testified, per the Daily Oklahoma, I felt that the only way I was going to live through it was to try to reason with him. I told him I was a virgin, and Gary and I were going to get married and have a family. I told him he didn't really want to do that. I didn't know at that time that Gary was already dead.

She said he tried to suffocate her several times, saying at one point that she started saying the 23rd song because I really thought I was going to die. I'm sure she did. This is a, you know, heart-wrenching testimony. John Johnson told the Oklahoma after the hearing, I'm innocent. It's awful, but I didn't have anything to do with it. The preliminary hearing continued in January 1990. Johnson's friend Leslie Carey testified that Johnson came home on August 16th, 1986, and admitted to killing someone in Edmund during a burglary.

Kerry testified, he said he'd done a burglary, and he thinks he did an old boy. He thinks he stabbed him to death. Okay, I don't know who calls a man an old boy, but... Yeah, and I don't know how you remain. a friend with somebody like that. Well, they could have been ex-friends by this point. I don't know.

It just said, you know, Johnson's friend, maybe one-time friend. But, you know, this is damning stuff, right? You have the victim identifying you. You have a friend coming forward and testifying that you admitted to killing someone during a burglary in Edmund. Hey, things are not looking good for this Johnson guy. Not at all. Johnson and Kerry lived together and committed burglaries together in the late 80s.

At the time of the hearing, Carrie was serving 10 years for the July 1989 burglary. He said he made no deals in exchange for his testimony. Well, maybe that answers your question, Gibbs. Maybe they were friends. Sure. But as we often see, you know, once somebody in the friendship or the partnership is pinched, and they're doing time, what are they willing to say to maybe get a little leniency? Now, he's saying he didn't get any deals, but we don't know.

Maybe he had a higher standard. I just rob. I don't do anything more than that. Johnson left the trailer around 10 p.m. on August 15th and returned around 6 or 7 a.m. On the 16th, with blood on his hands and clothing. At first, he claimed the blood was from a cut, but then he had. admitted he killed someone. Again, this is all testimony, right, from Leslie Carey. The court heard that

Johnson was charged with murder after Gary's fiance picked him out of a photo lineup. His defense attorney argued she identified him because the police methods were improperly suggested. And we don't know whether or not they were. What I will say is if they were, it wouldn't be the first time. Exactly. I mean, it's been proven. in many different cases that, you know, maybe they didn't have as many different photos as they should have. Maybe the person was holding his finger on the one that they wanted the victim to select. There's been all kinds of strange things that have happened throughout the years. Can't really say it's unbiased. No, you hope it is, but it hasn't always been, right? That's the thing.

Now, I do believe these are outliers, especially today. But I'm not going to say that it still doesn't happen today. But one thing I do want to talk about is, you know, Gary's fiance being called legally blonde and knowing that she wasn't wearing her glasses that night. To me, that's going to make identification pretty tough. Yeah. And it would give some ammunition, you would think, to a defense attorney to explore that. Some good ammunition.

On February 23, 1990, a judge ordered Johnson to stay in trial. Prosecutors intended on seeking the death penalty. Two months later, on April 20th, Johnson was eliminated as a suspect by test that determined his hair was not consistent with pubic hairs left at the scene by the rapist. And his footprint didn't match the one found inside the home. His blood type was also different from the rapist. Okay. So, I mean, let's just think about this.

Now, this guy's not a free man because he's still going to have to serve a seven-year sentence for that burglary. But he was facing death. Sure he was. And a murder conviction. So he's feeling pretty good at this point. Yeah. I'll do my seven years because I actually did that, right? This other stuff, I didn't do.

But it's a scary thought that someone could be charged. and even convicted for murder and not have committed the murder. Well, there's a lot of people sitting out there in that situation right now. Well, we don't know how men. In a phone interview with the Daily Oklahoma and Johnson said, I just don't know how to explain it, what I went through. It was a terrible ordeal. I just didn't think something like this could happen to somebody.

I never thought something like that could happen to me, especially. I'm going to live differently. I haven't been the best guy in the world. You know, I have done wrong, but I'd never do anything like that. I'm just going to make the best of it and try to get on with my life and try to look past this. I really feel that's all I can do. The system is terrible. It's as crooked as can be.

Well, it sounds like he's going to make a good decision and just get out of that business all together. Yeah. Now, he's making an distinction between the crimes that he committed and this one. And there is a distinction. Sure, there is. I'm not saying burglary is good, but it's a far cry from murder and rape. But it throws you into a certain type of pool. Well, let's face it, he most likely would have never got caught up in this investigation had he not committed the burglar.

Exactly. Now, that doesn't make what, you know, happened to him okay, but the case went cold once again. But it stuck with the Edmund Police, especially Detective Scott Day. On the night of April 5th, 2005, Detective Day went to investigate a report of a peeping Tom at a home in Edmund. Homeowner Scott Eagleston said there had been a couple of instances where his kids saw someone outside or someone looking through the window. So he set up a security system. His motion detector went off that evening. and when he went outside, he found a man dressed all in black lying on the ground.

He was barefoot. Eagleston yelled at him and the man got up and began walking away. Eagleston chased after him, tackled him, and subdued him until the police arrived. He wasn't going to stop it, just letting the guy go away, was he? No, and this sounds like something honestly that you would do. You would go full Jason Bourne on this guy and, you know, chase him down, tackle him. Would have to.

Tie him up in a pretzel knot and just sit on him until the police got there. Hull tie him right up. But let's face it, this guy's got kids, right? So he may have, you know, had a significant other as well. I don't know. I didn't say that. But he's got a family. So he's got to be worried about a guy standing outside of his home dressed all in black.

Are you just going to let that guy walk away? No. If you're not Johnny Cash, you're going down. because that's the only one that should be wearing all black. That's right. The man was soon identified as 38-year-old Jonathan Scott Graham. Officers went to Graham's address and spoke to his father who agreed to let them search the residence. Officers found a computer and were granted permission to search it.

Investigators found photos taken through a window screen. Looking into a bathroom of a home, there were also photos of nude people. Okay. Pretty easy to see that this is some kind of peeping Tom at the very least. And creepy. Oh, very creepy. The computer was taken to the police department for a more thorough search. Now, Graham was initially arrested on a misdemeanor peeping Tom charge.

Detective Scott Day started working the case the next day and read the report with the homeowner statement that he was suspicious Graham had been trying to take pictures through the window. To charge Graham with a felony, the police had to prove he was taking photos of the house. He was caught peeping into. So apparently misdemeanor to look in or peep. Right. But felony to take a picture into is what I'm getting from that statement. Same here. Didn't we talk about at one point? Maybe I'm just not remembering. It's been a long time. Well, that would be shocking. My memory. Yeah.

How peeping Tom came to be. How the word, or the term peeping Tom? No, I don't remember. We probably did, but I don't remember it now. Yeah.

But it's good podcast, though. It is. Yeah. It's good. Good. Detective Day studied the Eagleston's home. So he could recognize it if it showed up in photos from Graham's computer. They got an eerie feeling and realized that the house was just one.

block away from the Larson crime scene. So Detective Day started looking back at the Larson case file and found that Graham fit the suspect profile. He was 20 years old at the time of the murder and lived with his parents a block from the crime scene. He moved out of town soon after the attack. But apparently was still living with his parents at the age of 38, it sounds like. Some people do that. Some do. In the basement. With their computer. With their computer, yelling at their mom for more lasagna. A background check showed that Graham was charged in Waco, Texas for unlawfully carrying a weapon. I didn't even know you could be charged in Texas for unlawfully carrying a weapon.

I just assumed it was completely lawful for everyone to carry in Texas. That's what I thought so too. Probably not back then. I'm pretty sure it is today, though. Heck, it's lawful here in Ohio now for everyone to carry. On June 16, 2000, he was caught peeping into someone's house. The police stopped him in the neighborhood. He was carrying a camera and was arrested.

When the police searched his car, they found a bag that contained black clothing, gloves, duct tape, sex toys, lubricant, condoms, knives, swords, handcuffs, lockpicking tools, and lighter fluid. What the heck? Okay, I mean, people carry a lot of different things in their vehicle. Sure. This is a strange menagerie of things that you're going to have to explain. I mean, I remember being in your truck once and I opened up that one bag and I quickly close it because I was like, I don't know if you want to see what I'm seeing at this point. But this is another level. This is.

I mean, it's like a kit for doing all kinds of bad things. breaking and entering, murder, sexual assault. I mean, who carries swords? Zorro? Zorro? No, today, I don't know. Yeah. In recent years, I don't know.

Graham admitted he was a voyeur and had been struggling for years. However, he said the bag was for fantasy and not reality, per the Oklahoma. This is my fantasy bag with black clothing, duct tape, sex. toys, knives, swords, you know, all that. Well, clearly he has to come up with something. Yeah. What are you going to say? Yeah.

But even if it's your fantasy, you got some, you got some strange fantasies. Yeah. A little bizarre. When Detective Day read that Graham was also barefoot at the time of his 2000 arrest, he felt strongly that he was involved in the Larson murder. And again, that, it's such a strange element. Right. You're dressed all in black, but yet you're barefoot. Again, I don't know how many burglars go barefoot. You can move quieter. Oh, there's no doubt about it. I just don't know how many people do it. But when you have this kind of peeping Tom incident very close to a murder scene. Yeah.

That happened years prior where the perpetrator was also barefoot. It's pretty, hard to discount. It really is. Detective Day was working on a search warrant to get Graham's footprint when he learned Graham was released on bail. Investigators were worried he would leave town. I think I'd be worried too. I mean, if this guy was the killer slash rapist, he has to know it's probably a matter of time before they figure out that he did that. Time to get out of Dodge. Yeah. They focused on analyzing the computer as quickly as they could. to get more serious charges filed. And that's the problem, right?

He's released on bail because right now he's not charged with the serious crimes. Yeah. So we got to find something so we can lock them down for a while. A detective found over 250 files of child pornography and voyeuristic images. Graham downloaded online. Now, these weren't real peeping Tom images, but they were made to look that way. what it did was it showed that his downloads showed he had an obsession with voyeurism. Maybe enough to do something.

He was re-arrested on felony peeping tom charges, 15 counts of possession of child pornography, and two counts of taking clandestine photographs. He was held without bond. Clandestine. Yeah. I don't know. You usually hear that word used in like special ops type stuff. You do. Graham's footprint was taken and sent to the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation for comparison to the 1986 footprint from the crime scene.

On April 28, 2004, investigators determined the prints matched. Two days later, Jonathan Graham was charged with first-degree murder for the death of Gary Larson. DNA testing in late May also linked him to the crime scene. unfortunately Graham could only be charged with murder because the statute of limitations had expired for rape charges. And that is bizarre to me. It is. And that has been, you know, changed in a lot of jurisdictions. We know there's no statute of limitations on murder. The statute of limitations on rape and other sexual crimes in the past has been very short.

Sure. I think in a lot of places it's been lengthened dramatically. I don't think you should ever get a pass on it. No, I don't think so either. Because of all the technology and everything, you know, if you committed a sexual crime 20, 30 years ago and they just figure it out today, I still think you should have to pay for that. You should. Graham's trial was delayed later that year.

Gary Larson's family and his former fiancé urged the prosecution to consider a plea deal. Gary's former fiance didn't want to go through the trauma of a trial or the lengthy appeals process of a death penalty case. They all just wanted Graham off the street so that he couldn't hurt anyone else. And I think that's a decision that, you know, a lot of victims' families have to make. Sure. And a lot of victims themselves have to make. I think you have to respect. it too. Yeah. You know, you got to weigh the pros and the cons. You may be in favor of the death penalty. You may not be. You know, there are some downsides of a death penalty conviction. We all know how many different appeals they get, you know, as part of the process. And rightfully so, before you're going to put somebody to death, it also takes a very long time because of those appeals. And I think that is fiancé.

and his family. I don't want to say they've gotten over it. But a lot of time is packed. Yeah. And to have to relive all that again. Well, and if you're her, if you're the fiance,

you're going to have to relive it in front of a bunch of strangers and friends and family too. So that's tough. That's not easy for anybody. On January 5th, 2005, Jonathan Graham received three consecutive life sentences without parole.

after pleading guilty to first-degree murder, first-degree rape, and first-degree burglary. The last two charges were previously ruled past the statute of limitations, but were added as part of the plea agreement. And that might have gone into their thinking as well. Yeah. You know, I want him to pay for the rape and the burglary. Prosecutors agreed not to seek the death penalty if Graham would plead guilty to all charges against him, including taking clandestine photos and possessing child pornography. And not to say that those aren't important charges because they are,

especially the child pornography is horrible. Sure it is. But I think, you know, if you're Graham, you're already facing three life sentences. I mean, taking those charges or pleading to those charges, what's that going to do? It's not going to change anything.

No. And they had the evidence to prove it anyway. Graham claimed he did not commit any additional crimes. But if crimes he didn't confess, come to life. The state will consider the agreement void and seek the death pill. Oh, boy, that would be an interesting scenario. Hey, we just linked you through DNA to this other case. Now your three life sentences are gone and we're going after you.

Yeah, capital murder. Graham agreed to a recorded interview. as part of the agreement, parts of this interview were presented in the solved episode covering this case. Graham was asked to explain what happened on the night of August 16th, 1986. He said, I just went out to Pete and went out to a different street. I usually don't leave my street and went to that street and was just opportunistic. I just was wondering around seeing what windows I could look into and that light just happened to be on. And I looked into the window and she didn't have any clothes on and she was coming out of the bathroom. I assumed going to bed. He claimed he never saw

Gary Larson. He left and returned to the house armed with the night. He saw that the lights were off and he decided he was going to rape the woman he saw earlier that night. He went through one of the front windows and wandered around the house for a while in the dark. He bumped into Gary. He coming down the hallway and was surprised. He said, out of excitement, fear, shock, I don't remember much of the incident other than I pushed him against one of the wall. And until I was told last year, I didn't know how many times I had stabbed him because I, you know, was so surprised. Graham was scared and didn't know what to do. The woman was screaming. So he went down the hall and found her in the bathroom. He said, I think I was just trying to knock her unconscious and then decided that I couldn't do it

without hurting her. So I figured if I could just tie her up. I don't remember too much about it other than she didn't want me to hurt her. And I pretty much decided that not, well, I didn't want to at a certain point. He acknowledged that he raped the woman saying, because that's what I came for initially. He was asked what he liked about committing these types of crimes. And he said, control, doing whatever I want to do. And Gibbs, you've heard that said about rape so many times. Sure, yeah. That it's about control.

And here you have a guy actually admitting it. Makes them feel powerful. But I also thought it was interesting that, you know, he's claiming not to know that Gary was was in the house. And I think it's kind of easy to believe that. You know, most opportunistic rapists, I don't believe would go into a house knowing that they're going to have to fight a man. Most of them would pick a target that's much more vulnerable. I'll use that word because I think that's how they think. So I believe that he thought this woman was alone in the home. I believe that too. And was surprised when he encountered Gary in the hallway. Now, he did what he did.

He stabbed him, you know, 20-some times and killed him. But just think how his thought process worked, right? This is what I'm going to do. I was peeping in this home. And just for a second, And think about how he said he would go up and down his street. If you were one of his neighbors, you know that at some point he peeped in your home. Oh, absolutely. He even said it, right? I normally stayed on my street. Normally meant what?

How often did you go out nightly? So you're into peeping into everybody's homes. But, you know, I think what it does show and it's kind of been shown, right, throughout time is that a lot of these people start with people. And I'm not saying peeping is harmless at all. It's terrible. Absolutely. But it then progresses to other things. You know, we've heard of, you know, the next thing is they're stealing underwear off the clothesline or they're, they're slipping into people's houses and stealing underwear or whatever that is. And then it progresses to some type of sexual assault and may ultimately progress to murder. But he just made it sound so casual. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, he did. Jonathan, Scott Graham,

we'll spend the rest of his life in prison. So it gives us, we wrap this one up. Yeah, I think when you look at a guy like Jonathan Graham, he obviously had a pattern of behavior, some of which we, we just touched on. I think what it shows is that he was a violent sexual predator who was in all types of different ways, a danger to the community. Now, he claimed he didn't commit any additional murders or sexual assaults after 1986, but you really have to question that. I know Gary Larson's family has come out and said they don't believe that's true. I can't believe that's true either. No, I mean, here's a guy who's, you know, out casing his street and neighborhood every night, peeping into windows. He commits this murder and sexual assault, but that's the only thing he ever does.

Yeah, I don't think that scared him to not do it anymore. No, because he didn't get caught for many, many years. So it's not like that urge is going to go away. So it's hard for me to believe that he doesn't have a lot of other crimes. under his belt. Now, I don't know if he ever murdered anyone again. Maybe he was more careful. But to say that or to think that he didn't commit any more sexual crimes, that's very

hard to believe. Yeah, I don't think it was a one and done thing. And Larson's family has even come out and said they don't think that, you know, he would commit rape and murder just one time and never do it again. And I'm kind of in that line of thinking, too. As of 2025, Graham has not. been linked to additional sexual assaults or murders. But again, that doesn't mean he didn't commit them. It's hard to link those. Sure. I think for me, the last thing that I want to talk about

is Gary's fiance and Brent Johnson. You know, she had to have had some remorse at some point for picking him out of a lineup. Now, maybe she was coerced or kind of led that way by the police. I don't know. But she was also legally blind and didn't have her glasses on. Right. It could have been an honest mistake. Sure. But still, you, you would have to have some remorse in finding out that you picked the wrong person.

And obviously, you know, this Johnson guy, he, there's no doubt his life was altered. For sure. Now, he did spend time for burglary. So he wasn't a saint. But as far as we know, he wasn't a murderer and rapist either. And it sounds like maybe this scared him straight. Like, I'm not going to do anything wrong ever again after this. Well, that's what prison is supposed to do.

Yeah. Right. It doesn't work for everyone. But it's supposed to be, you know, rehabilitation. You do your time. You get out. You become a productive member of society. To be accused of murder, that's going to probably change the way you do things.

And face the death penalty? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think it adds an extra scared straight. element to it. Yeah, for sure. But talking about the fiancee, though, what a amazing woman, really, to go through what she went through to survive such a horrific ordeal. Well, and then, you know, the, just think about the 20

years after, this Johnson guy is thought to be the person. Yeah. Then they, they link Graham to it. So she's got to go through all of this and relive. And relive it and so does Gary's family and yeah I mean you you have to say that she was a pretty strong woman just in the fact that you know she was able to compose herself as that horrific ordeal was going on and kind of try to talk him into not hurting her and it did work you know he tied her up and he left her in the closet and I think you said she was trying to get him to see her as a human being. And maybe what she did work.

And maybe that's the reason she lived. Sure. But that's it for our episode on Jonathan Scott Graham. We've got a voicemail. You want to hear it? Let's hear it. Hi, this is Andrew. I've been listening to you guys for quite a few years.

Team Givie, you guys are awesome. I got to say, was listening to the Johnny Lewis episode. Gibby was right. Drake, the rapper, was on a Nickelodeon show, just not breaking job. It was a Canadian show. And he was also right about Katie Perry singing a tiger song. I think it's called Roar.

And you were wrong. It's not called paper bagged. It's called fireworks. As a 36-year-old man, I probably shouldn't know this stuff, but I do. You guys are awesome. Keep your own time taken. Thanks for what you do. All right.

I love the voicemail. I love how I'm wrong. But you're right. even though none of that was right. In your head. Drake was not on, was not Drake of Drake and Josh. He was on another show.

And I've got tons of emails and voicemails about this. I guess he was on DeGrassey, which I've never seen. I don't remember my kids watching that one. But apparently he was on that. And then so Katie Perry sings a song called Roar. And you said it was I of the tiger. But because the word tiger is in it, you're correct.

I am correct. Yes. People love you so much. They will find a way to defend you. Good old, good old Drake, man. I remember, you know,

back in the day when he worked at Shoppers Drug Mart up in Canada. Then he went on to do the DeGrasi, you know, and then Katie came along and like, let's do a tiger song, Roar. Oh,

I'm going to spend a week in your mind. I don't know. That's a long time. That's a trip, man. I don't know if I can handle it. It really is. I don't know. But we appreciate.

the voicemail very much. All right, buddy. So we had no mailbag this week. So that is it for another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.