True Crime All The Time - Joseph Christopher

Episode Date: July 6, 2020

Joseph Christopher went on a killing spree in 1980 around the Buffalo, New York area that caused the press to dub him the ".22 Caliber Killer." Christopher's murders were racially motivated and he targeted black males. But, he varied his M.O. up so much that police weren't sure how many murderers they were chasing and it caused the media to throw out other names such as the Midtown Slasher and the Huntsman.Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the life and crimes of Joseph Christopher. What happened during this man's life to cause him to begin targeting black males for death. There is a mental illness aspect to Christopher's story as he was turned away from a medical health facility just weeks before his murder spree began. He has said in interviews that he murdered 13 people in total but many believe the number could be even higher.You can support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital ProductionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Your math skills have global potential. As an actuary, you'll solve some of the world's most pressing problems while helping people to live better lives. Become an actuary through the society of actuaries and work anywhere in the world. Hello everyone and welcome to episode 190 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson. And with me as always is my partner in True Crime, Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you? I'm good, man.

About you. I'm doing great. Yeah. I just had a birthday. That's good. I won't say what number it was. It was a big number. It was a big number.

Yeah. Double digits. You're getting, well, it was definitely double digits. Yeah, I'm over 10. I'm over nine. Yeah. Yeah. But you're getting ready to have one as well, allegedly.

Allegedly. Allegedly. Yeah. You know, you're like one of those kids in little league baseball who is real big and doctors, their birth certificate to be able to play with some of the smaller kids and they just dominate. Absolutely. So we don't really technically know how old you are. My mom still tries to pass me off as a kid to get the kid pricing.

My mom. She's like, just they don't know. You are a kid. You're a big kid. Yeah. Just pull your huskies up and act like a big boy. That's right.

Do you remember the days of the drive-in theater? Sure. Where you would have to pile into the trunk. Oh, yeah. So that mom or dad didn't have to pay for you? I remember that. I think that's illegal, at least nowadays, I'm sure it is. But everybody's what everybody did.

Yeah, that'd be four, there'd be two or three, four people in the trunk, man. Or if you're in the station wagon, you had to hide underneath the blanket. That's true. We never had a station wagon, but. And they wouldn't tell you when you could come out. You're like, they finally let you come out. You're like, really? The movie's halfway over.

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on true crime all time unsolved we have an episode out on Julie Weflin yeah the disappearance over So we're headed up to the northwest and to Washington. Yeah. Where are we back in the early 80s or late 80s? Late 80s. 87. And this is a case that I think people will find interesting from a couple of different standpoints.

Obviously, there are the circumstances around Julie's life, her disappearance, everything that happened to her. But then, you know, this is one of those where there are quite a few persons of interest to talk about. There are a number of people that police have looked at over the years. And so that that makes it intriguing as well. It's one of those unsolved disappearances that make you think, you know, why it has not been solved based on some of the information that, you know, we're talking about.

But also just a hotbed area right there where she was taken from. A lot of disappearance. Yeah, and murders in that area. And then, you know, I don't talk about criminology a lot, but so my other podcast that I do with Mike Morford, there's been a lot of Golden State Killer News. He just pled guilty. It's kind of, you know, in the news again. Well, we were able to get an interview with the Golden State Killer's brother-in-law that will be out this Sunday. So I kind of urge people to check that out.

I think it will be very interesting to hear from a family member about, okay, were there signs? What did they think? What did they see? How shocked were they all that type of stuff? Well, you say, uh, confirm that you did have a really, you know, tiny weiner. Yeah. Yeah, it's pretty much been confirmed. That was in the, uh, yeah, in some of the statements in court, uh, live.

Family member probably showered. with them at one point, you know, at the gym or something like that. Okay, because you're getting into a strange area. Yeah, yeah, I'm at the gym. All right, buddy. Are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time? Yeah. We're talking about Joseph Christopher, who in 1980 embarked on a killing spree that earned him

the moniker, the 22 caliber killer. Now, you will see a number of names, right, surrounding this guy. that is the one you'll see the most, but you may see the Midtown Slasher, the Huntsman, and there's a reason for that. I don't want to give it away, but we'll talk about it as we go through the episode. He's believed to have been responsible for as many as 13 deaths and definitely victimizing and wounding many more. This is another one of those cases, Gibbs, where you can really look at this guy's patterns and behaviors and say, wow, how many victims could he have had? Right.

Numbers probably much higher. Oh, I'm sure it is. This is also a story that involves race. Christopher was white and his victims were black with the exception of one. Christopher was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia. And there's definitely a mental health angle to this story. well. A lot of questions to unravel in this case. Did mental health professionals, you know, kind of turn their back on this guy? And therefore, he didn't get the help that he needed.

Why did he choose to target black males as his victims? It's a lot to unpack. So let's go ahead and get started. Joseph Gerard Christopher was born on July 26, 1955 in Buffalo, New York. to Nicholas and Therese Christopher. Joseph had two older sisters and then later a younger one. His father worked in the city sanitation department and his mother was a registered nurse at Deaconess Hospital. Growing up, Joseph developed a love of the outdoors. That's something that he shared with his dad.

It is. And I think that happens with a lot of kids, right? If you have a father who is, I'll call him. an outdoorsman shooting, fishing, hunting, hiking, bird watching, whatever it is. Yeah. Chances are you're going to get asked to participate in some of those things. And, well, you may decide you love it and you may decide you don't, but at least, you know, you're exposed.

So you have the chance to experience some of that stuff. His dad was a hunter, taught Joseph how to shoot. friends and classmates remember that Joseph was kind of a quiet kid. You know, he wasn't the class clown. He wasn't in your face. He just kind of kept to himself. Now, he wasn't super smart in what you would think of Gibbs as the traditional sense. Right.

He attended a vocational high school and studied automotive mechanics. No, this is where he shined. He was really, really good at this. He was. Man, it was said that he could fix anything. Some people were mechanically inclined, and some people aren't. I am not. If you can tinker with stuff like that, man, that's a good skill to have.

You know, that's somebody you want when you're out, you know, driving somewhere, or if you're out on the water, on a boat somewhere, I say boats, because boats go down all the time. That's when you want that guy that can, or that gal can get in there and get that thing running again. Diagnose it real quickly. And so, yeah, I mean, he was really mechanically inclined, automotively inclined. The problem that Joseph had was, although he excelled at the automotive program at his school, he struggled mightily with all of his other courses. So you're talking about math, English, science, things like that.

He didn't excel at those in the same way that he did his automotive classes. My assumption is he didn't grasp them or it didn't come as easily as the automotive side did. Sure. Yeah, it makes sense. But he struggled so much that he eventually, you know, had to drop out. He just could not pass those classes. And obviously, you have to be well-rounded. You have to pass different classes to be able to graduate.

Right. It's not a case where, well, he's just so good in this automotive. were going to let him graduate, even though he didn't pass any of these other classes. It doesn't work like that. I do know a few people like this, Gibbs. I mean, you wouldn't call them book smart, let's say. But you definitely wouldn't say they were unintelligent. No, they had those street smarts.

Yes. And they sometimes have those strange abilities to have really good knowledge in areas that you just wouldn't. for someone that went to school and college, they would really have those knowledge of things that you just blow you away. You're like, how did you, why would you know how to do that? How did you figure that out? And they just know it. Yeah, I think some people just have abilities in certain areas that are kind of extraordinary,

things that I would look at and say, I could never do that in a million years. Yeah. And I know I know somebody, many people like that. I'm sure you do too, that they didn't graduate. but man, they really have those street smarts down. And for whatever reason that they didn't graduate high school at that time, you know, they're doing great now because they've got into something that they loved and, you know,

poured their energy into that. Yeah, Gibbs, you and I have talked in other instances about people dropping out of high school. Right. It's not always because people can't do it. Yeah. There are extenuating circumstances, other factors in their life. Now, it does seem like with Christopher, he couldn't pass these type of classes. So he worked a number of odd jobs over the years.

Then at some point in the 70s, he got a job as a maintenance man at Kinesh's college. He began living with a secretary at the college. It's kind of like they hooked up. They moved in together. I think she was quite older than he was. I don't know by how many years, but there was definitely an age gap there. It was also at Cinesh's where he met a man,

a coworker, and this man and Joseph became very good friends. Well, this man happened to be black. Now, Gibbs, you and I don't often talk about the race of perpetrators and or victim. sometimes you and I will go entire episodes without how, you know, mentioning whether a killer's

white or black, a victim is white or black, because in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't make a difference. No, it doesn't. But that's not true in this case. You know, it's definitely germane to the story. So these guys hung out together. They went to the gym together. I believe they were very good friends.

And the reason why. I'm stressing it is probably pretty evident, right? Later, Christopher is going to target black males. And the big question is going to be why. So to me, this helped shed some light on, okay, was this guy a racist all his life? I don't think he was. People that knew him when he was younger later told papers that they don't remember him ever being. One bit racist. Even his coworker at Kinesh's told papers, quote, Joseph didn't seem to have any strong feelings about race. And to me, that makes a lot of sense. Kibbs, you're not going to hang out with a guy all the time who hates people of your race. It's just not going to happen. Now, Christopher eventually got fired from his job at Kinesius in March of 1970.

not. Well, that will happen when you sleep on the job. Yeah. Employers normally don't like it. No. When they catch you napping. I don't like it. Technically, I'm not your employer, but I don't like it when you nap in the middle of the podcast. I think it sends a bad message. Yeah. You didn't have a comeback for that one, didn't you? It's that soothing voice of yours, man. Yeah. Is what it is. Now, I'm just messing around. But in all seriousness, You know, employers, they expect a, some certain things. One of those is to stay awake.

Yeah. A good day's work for a good day's pay. Sometimes it pays not as good as you want. Right. You know. And sometimes I'll gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today. I mean, it just all works out that way. There's that too.

So he got fired. His relationship with his girlfriend, the secretary, it fell apart. He had to move back in with his parents. Now, there are some reports that around this time he was suffering from some mental health issues. There are also some reports Gibbs that have him checking himself into a mental hospital, but being turned away. It's a little alarming. It is alarming. Now, this is the late 70s.

and a lot of the articles made a big deal of the fact that these type of facilities would not admit patients if they deem the patient to not be a danger to either themselves or to others. Right. So that's what they said about Christopher in their evaluation. So they said, you know what? we can't help you, which, you know, I don't think that would happen today, but, you know, I think today they check in and keep you there for a little bit to do a better evaluation. What's really important about this is it's a turning point because it's just somewhere around

two weeks after this incident that Joseph began his killing spurt. It began on September 22nd, 1980, using a solid. off 22 caliber rifle. Christopher shot 14-year-old Glenn Dunn as he sat in a car outside of a supermarket in Buffalo. That's just something you don't hear a lot about Gibbs, a sawed-off 22 rifle. No, I mean, I can guess sawing it off just for keeping it short to move around freely. Yeah. I mean, you hear mostly about sawed-off shotguns. Yeah. Now, for the same reason, and makes it easier to conceal. But also, when you saw off the barrel of a shotgun,

it definitely changes the shot. Yeah. Right? You know, as the pellets and everything start to come out, well, the shorter the barrel, the quicker they start to spread. Right. So if you're up close,

you get a big pattern. It's almost impossible to miss somebody at close range with a sought off shotgun. It's also why they're illegal. Exactly. Yeah, but that's not going to happen with a 22, saw it off. No, I don't think it's going to change. Obviously, it doesn't change the spread because there is no spread with a 22.

What I do think it would do is decrease the velocity. A longer barrel, I believe creates more velocity. But other than that, I don't think it's going to do a whole lot. And I don't know how much he sawed off the barrel. You know, 22s usually aren't that long. anyway. But it was just the next day when Christopher committed two murders. He shot 32-year-old Harold Green at a fast food restaurant just outside of Buffalo. Then later that night, he shot and killed 30-year-old Emmanuel Thomas while he was crossing the street. And this happened

very close to where Glenn Dunn had been murdered. And then the day after that, Christopher shot 43-year-old Joseph McCoy near Niagara Falls. So think about that. Four murders of black males in two days, Gibbs. And then I think when you add on top of that, the fact that witnesses came out and said, okay, what we saw was a white male fleeing the scene. He was described anywhere from 5-9 to 6-foot tall, 25 to 35, with a slim build and wire-rimmed glasses. That'd be scary times. I think very

scary. You know, this is not one murder every three months. This is four people murdered in the span of just a couple of days, 48 hours. Yeah, I think if you're in Buffalo, you didn't want to walk around the streets. No, and to think that a white male was out there targeting black males, okay, that adds an element to it. Sure. On October 8, another black male was murdered, but not with the 22 rifle. 71 year old cab driver, Parlor Edwards, was bludgeon to death. And then the next day, a 40-year-old cab driver named Ernest Jones was killed with the knife.

So it's definitely different than the first four, their M-O's. Yeah, especially when you talk about M-O. But then it came out that the killer cut both of these men's hearts out. Wow. Yeah. Okay. Huh. Now, police came out and said that the hearts were removed with what they called the

expertise of an experienced hunter. So you have the precision of, cutting down the breastbone, taking out what you need and done. Yeah, I think by that they're saying, okay, this is somebody that knows their way around a knife. Most likely has field dressed animals, therefore we're saying this has got to be some type of hunter. But because of that, the press came out and started referring to the murderer as the huntsman. Sounds like a name of a movie. Wasn't it Snow White and the Huntsman?

It was. Or something like that. I think so. Yeah. Yeah. There you go. Although basically with everything I say, you could say that sounds like a movie. And we could figure out how to tie it into a movie.

I think we probably could. No doubt. Yeah. Gibbs, you know what? A crime is like a puzzle. Each connection helps reveal the big picture. And it's a thrill to put it all together. You and I need our downtime from true crime.

So when I'm not thinking about true crime. crime, my brain still craves a challenge. That's why I love Best Fiends. Best Fiends is a great way to have some socially distant competition with your friends. The gameplay is amazing. You get to collect a ton of cute characters and I'm always striving to reach that next level. This is a game that's already had over 100 million downloads. So you don't want to miss out on the Best Fiends craze. We even have a voicemail from a listener coming up talking about their love. of Best Fiends. It's a unique and exciting puzzle game unlike others out there. They update the game monthly with new levels and events so it never gets old. And it doesn't require the internet to play,

so you don't need to worry about Wi-Fi access or using your cell phone data. Best Fiends has thousands of levels already with new levels, events, and characters added every month. It's hours of fun right at your fingertips and you can even play offline. With over 100 million downloads and tons of five-star reviews. Best Fiends is a must-play. Download best fiends free on the Apple App Store or Google Play. That's Friends Without the R. Best Fiends. The district attorney came out and said, quote, Can you imagine a man reaches into a chest cavity and tears out the heart and carries it away? We haven't found either of them. What does he do with them for God's sake? Put them in his pocket? I guess a heart is about as big as a clear.

clinch fist. What sort of man does that? You know, this is all quotes made by the district attorney. But I think what this did, Gibbs, is it helped create an even more racially charged environment. Newspapers were reporting back then that, you know, the black community was out buying guns to protect themselves. There was real fear, real panic. it. Then someone set an eight foot cross on fire in East Buffalo. That's not good. No. Oh, this is going to make things explode. I mean, you're, you're setting the stage for all hell to break loose. Now, you also know that there were a ton of groups, the KKK, white supremacy groups, probably operating in the area that even if they had nothing to do with these killings

would jump on that type of scenario to fan the flames. Oh, sure they would. Not saying it's right. It's obviously wrong, but you know that that happened. I do think that many people believe that these two murders were the work of Joseph Christopher, but police could never definitively link. them to him. We talked about it. The M.O.s were certainly different. Yeah. But as we'll find out, Joseph Christopher was known for changing up his M.O. So whether he was involved in the two cabby murders or not,

and we'll talk about that more a little bit down the road. He decided to enlist in the army shortly after they happened. I think it was about a week after these two murders happened. He was stationed at Fort Benning down in Georgia. So that alone, right, the timing of that, I think people look at and say, hmm, a little convenient. Yeah, seems like it. That these two men are murdered and a week later you, you know, decide to enlist in the army. But it was just before Christmas when Christopher got to leave to go back home to New York. So he was only down there for what?

a couple of months. Not very long. Before getting a leave to come back home, on December 23rd, 1980, Christopher stabbed 19-year-old Luis Rodriguez to death on Madison Avenue in front of a whole crowd of people doing their Christmas shopping. Talk about festive. Hey, everybody. Look what I'm doing.

Well, that's the thing. He certainly was not trying to be stealthy. Yeah. I mean, if you didn't want to draw any attention whatsoever, you wouldn't stab somebody on Madison Avenue in, you know, right before Christmas when there's people everywhere. Now, Rodriguez was Hispanic. And I mentioned it. All of Christopher's victims were black with the exception of one.

This is that exception. But Rodriguez was described as very dark skin. So it has been theorized by some that Joseph Christopher thought he was black. A short time later, and I mean a short time later that night, Christopher stabbed a 40-year-old cook named Ivan Fraser. Yeah, on the E-train. On the E-train. Just trying to get home, man.

Just trying to get home. And someone has to get stabbed. But I'll say it again, right? Is that the stealthy way to do it with a bunch of other people on the train? in an environment that you can't just run away from right then and there. It seems odd. Well, it seems like he was okay if he got caught. I don't think he cared.

If I get caught, I'll get caught, I guess. Right. I'm going to stab somebody in the middle of Madison Avenue. I'm going to stab somebody on the train. Fraser survived the attack. But again, there were a number of witnesses to the attempted murder. In both of these cases, tons of witnesses. and they all gave a similar description to the perpetrator, Caucasian, slight build,

these wire-rimmed glasses, that was a big one. And almost every description was the mention wire-rimmed glasses. Toward the end of December into January, there were at least five more attacks. 31-year-old Roger Adams was stabbed to death in Buffalo, and 26-year-old Wendell Barnes was stabbed to death in Rochester. The other three victims were attacked with a knife, but they all survived. So now you have not only witnesses, because there were witnesses to all of these murders and attempted murders, but you have three survivors who are describing their attacker

as a white male with wire-rimmed glasses. So we fast forward a couple of months from when the first four murders took place. I can't even imagine Gibbs at this point the fear that's going on in those areas where these attacks and killings occurred. Well, you definitely can't feel good being a black man walking down the street in that area. No, and I would also think you'd be very mistrusting of any slim-builted, wire-rimmed glasses wearing white man. that was walking, you know, your way. Yeah, definitely. It would be alarming.

I think the other thing that's interesting is police didn't know, you know, if they were looking for one man or a number of perpetrators. They did have a lot of people on these cases, the 22 caliber killer, the huntsman, the Midtown Slasher, so many different names. And when you look at them, you could make the case that all. three of these are kind of separate. Yeah, you can break them out like that. But when you look at the description of the attacker, they're all similar. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that had to clue police in somewhat. Joseph Christopher went back to Fort Benning when his leave was over. But it didn't take him

long Gibbs to get into trouble in mid-January. So obviously, you know he hasn't been back there very long. Right. Christopher stabbed an African-American soldier with a knife from the mess hall. The soldier survived. Christopher was arrested and sent to the brig or the stockade. I don't know. My military terminology is not always all that accurate. It depends on what service.

Yeah, there is a brig and there is a stockade. Yeah. And maybe they're interchangeable or maybe like you said, one applies to, you know, this branch and this branch. in this branch and one applies to another branch. Stockade sounds more punishing. Does it? Yeah.

Because I think about, you know, they're going to put you in the stock. They're going to lock your arms in your neck down on that big device. Oh, the stocks. Yeah. Back in the day. That big device called the stocks. Yeah. I think is what they call.

That thing. Yeah. That's what I keep picturing. The brig, I'm like, I don't know. Is that really rough to be in the brig? I don't know. Place some canast in there. Yeah.

But while he was incarcerated, awaiting trial. Christopher exhibited some bizarre behavior. He stopped eating. He started cutting himself. So they sent him to a military psychiatric facility to be examined. And it was there that he started telling nurses about these murders that he had committed up in New York. And I don't even know if it was just nurses. It was like he was just telling people that he had killed. a number of black men and he was specific about that part. It wasn't just, hey, I killed people. It was, I killed a number of black men. So New York officials were called and they began to investigate Joseph Christopher. And I think that's why it's interesting, right? He's not on their radar.

He's not suspect number one until he starts opening his mouth. Right. And now police are like, oh, we better look at this guy. He's all over the radar. And it didn't take long to find a whole bunch of evidence, tying him to some of the murders. They found clothing that matched some of the witness and survivor descriptions. They found out that he owned two different 22 caliber rifles. Yeah, but there were nowhere to be found. So yeah, they couldn't.

They know he owned them, but where are they? They couldn't find the rifles. What they did find was a sawed off. barrel. But I think when they really hit pay dirt was when they searched his family's hunting camp and they found some 22 caliber casings. And they were able to match those to some found at the murder scenes. Put them right there. Yeah. Sometimes very tough to make a case without the murder weapon. Yeah. I mean, the murder weapon would definitely make the conviction a lot easier. Yeah. In most cases, I would would say that's absolutely true. But when you've got shell casings found at his family's property,

they match those at the murder scene. Wow, you've, you've really got something there. Well, sure. And it's almost like, okay, this fell in our lap. We don't have the murder weapon, but we don't really need it now because we can prove or our jury's going to believe that this shows that this man and was the killer. Right. In early May, 1981, Joseph was extradited from Georgia, where he was being held at Fort Benning.

A few days later, he appeared in court. And Gibbs, when you see pictures of this guy, it's downright eerie. So they led him into the courtroom in leg irons. He had handcuffs that were secured to a chain around his waist. Okay.

That's not all that. out of the ordinary. Right. That's not eerie or that's not really setting off any strange vibes for anyone. It's not Hannibal Lecter. No, no. You know, to me, what was strange was that they made him wear a gray ski mask in court. Now, prosecutors said they were keeping his face covered because there were still some witnesses who had not had a chance to go through the photo lineups. And, And they didn't want to taint that process. Okay. Makes sense.

So they didn't want the media taking pictures of this guy's face, right? What he looks like now. Right. Because I don't think there were a whole lot of pictures of him, recent pictures. I know in some of the articles they said, okay, they were going back to his yearbook. But of course, that would have been some time ago. Oh, you go back to your book and you got a full set of hair, man. Oh, full set of hair.

skinny. Yeah, everything. Ready to play a basketball game. Pretty much the exact opposite of what I am today. I just don't think me describing it really paints the picture of how strange it seemed or how strange it looked to have this guy in court wearing this ski mask. It was eerie. Definitely wouldn't look good in the press. I think the press would have a field day getting that out there. Sure. The judge wasn't having it. it and he made them take the ski mask off Joseph Christopher. He was quoted to saying, I will not arraign a defendant without knowing and seeing who he is. I don't know whether that is Joseph Christopher or someone else beneath that mask. Christopher pleaded innocent and said, I don't feel

they have anything against me. The other thing he did was he made it known. He did not want help from any attorneys. And I saw some conflicting information. I saw that, you know, maybe these were public defenders. I also saw that maybe these were attorneys that his mom had hired. Right. But he wanted no part of them. I got this. I don't need their help. The other thing he said was that he didn't want to see any doctors. And he would not cooperate with any type of mental health exam. So he was quickly charged in Erie County with the murders of Glenn Dunn, Emmanuel Thomas, and Harold Green. The next month, he was charged in Niagara County with the murder of Joseph McCoy. So those are the first four murders that we talked about. And those would be what

you would consider the 22 caliber murders, right? All four of these victims shot in the head with a a 22 caliber firearm rifle. And they knew it was a rifle. So even though he said, you know what, I don't want any attorneys as most judges do. They said, okay, you're not doing this on your own. Right. I'm not going to have this go up to the appeals court and come back because you didn't have somebody. Right. So we're going to give you some people who can help advise you. The problem is Christopher pretty much went against every bit of counsel they gave him. They told him not to waive his right to a jury trial, but he did it anyway. So he was going to have a bench trial, a non-jury trial, where the judge would be the

kind of end all, be-all deciding factor. Yeah. The trial lasted two weeks. there were 145 exhibits introduced at the trial. The prosecution called 38 witnesses. And I think Gibbs, they were very successful in proving that the 22 caliber shell casings found at the scene of the murders were fired from Christopher's gun. Even though they didn't have the gun, the fact that they were able to tie it to his family's

hunting farm, they also had at least one witness. who testified to seeing Joseph Christopher shoot Glenn Dunn on September 22nd, 1980. And the prosecution also called a number of Christopher's fellow soldiers from Fort Benning, who testified that he had bragged about these murders on numerous occasions. It was not good for a defense. No, it's not good. I go back to something that you said. And I think it was when I was talking about, okay, he's not trying to be stealthy, right?

Right. He's stabbing people right in the middle of Madison Avenue. He's stabbing someone on the E train. And I think you said, okay, does he want to be caught? I think you can look at this the same way. Why are you running your mouth and telling all these people, these soldiers at Ford Benning, why are you telling all these nurses, unless deep down you want to, be caught.

And I have to agree with you. I think subconsciously he wanted to be caught. Now, one thing that would become very important later on is that the defense was prevented from calling mental health experts to testify to Christopher's mental state. I think the other thing was that he was not allowed to testify on his own behalf in regards to his mental state. The judge didn't allow either of these. It'll come up big on appeal. On April 27, 27th, 1982, Christopher was found guilty of second degree murder in the 22 caliber shootings.

But he was only convicted for the murders of Glenn Dunn, Emmanuel Thomas, and Harold Green. On Monday, May 24th, 1982, the judge handed down three sentences, one, for each of the murders for which he was convicted, he received a 15, a 20, in a 25 year sentence, all to be served consecutively. So that meant he would have to serve 60 years before he was even eligible for parole.

Seems more than fair. Yeah. So a good span of time. Yeah. I mean, when you look at it, okay, 15 years, does that seem like a lot for, murdering someone, it really doesn't. 20, 25, but I think the way they did it, right, making them all consecutive, it all adds up to 60

years. Yeah, you know where he's going to be for that time period. When the judge asked him if he had anything to say, he said, nope, I'm good. Don't have anything to say. And it was reported that he showed no emotion as the sentences were read. So maybe just at that point, after going through. the trial, he just didn't care anymore. Maybe he was just emotional less because of that. You know, he's just like, it's done. I'm not going to show emotions because I don't have any

to show. Yeah, I guess I get that. I mean, to me, I always feel like, all right, you're able to kill. And there's an emotional component to that, right? There's something that's allowing you to be able to do that. But then when you're caught and you find out that you essentially are going to spend the rest of your life in prison, I feel like you'd be emotional about that part, even if you weren't emotional about what you had done, right? It was easy to take a life, let's say. But the realization that I'm never getting out and I'm going to be eating in the mess hall for the next 60 years, I don't know. I just feel like for most people there would be some emotions. Maybe that is even strengthening your point that the guy just was very kind of emotionless.

So I mentioned Gibbs that mental health experts were not allowed to take the stand in Christopher's trial. And neither was he. The judge barred him from testifying as to his mental state. In 1985, on appeal, the state court of appeal, the state court of appeal. overturned his convictions based on these things. The court ruled that a competency hearing must take place to determine whether he was capable of assisting in his defense. But he was going to get a new trial. But before that happened, in November of 85, he went on trial and was convicted for the murder of Luis Rodriguez and the attempted murder of Ivan Fraser.

So for those two incidents, he was sentenced to 33 years to life in prison. Good. Good. Yeah. Well, I think it had to make the prosecutors in, you know, this first case feel a little better. I'm sure they felt they were going to get another conviction. But now, you've got a guy with a, that already has a sentence of 33 years to life. It takes a little bit of the pressure off, I would think. Oh, for sure. Christopher went on trial again in 1986 for his first set of murders. A psychiatrist who examined him said that his attacks were most definitely racially

motivated. This guy testified on the stand that Christopher told him, quote, I went around shooting people because I thought somehow blacks were the devil. Those were his words. That's exactly what the psychiatrist said that he said to him. Not too hard probably to figure out. He was found guilty in December, 1986 and sentenced in January, 1987. But this time it was a little different.

It was three counts of manslaughter instead of three counts. of second degree murder, he was given three maximum sentences of eight to 25 years in prison to be served consecutively. So I think because of the switch to manslaughter, the sentences were potentially a little bit shorter for each murder. But they're run consecutively. Yeah, they will. And consecutively to the sentence that he already got for the other murder and attempted murder. So in the end, how much did it really matter? He was never getting out of jail. No. With, with all of these consecutive sentences that he had racked up. And the judge said in handing down the sentences, quote, your axedify reason. You terminated the lives of three men solely for the

color of their skin. You terrorized this community for months, causing great alarm. alarm. You must be permanently confined for the rest of your life. And Gibbs, you know, there was a fourth victim, right? In the 22 caliber shootings, it was Joseph McCoy, but this happened near Niagara Falls. And I just really couldn't find much else about him and why they didn't take him to trial for that murder. You know, maybe it was a cost thing. Maybe it was he already had so many convictions and so much time. But unless I missed it, from what I could tell, McCoy was not included. The Buffalo News later interviewed Christopher in prison. And when they asked him about the killings, he didn't deny them, but he also didn't come out and admit to

specifics. So it wasn't like he said, I never killed anyone, but he wouldn't give any deep. details that would corroborate the fact that he had murdered these people, but he took it a step farther. He said that he was ordered to kill by groups that he referred to only as they. So these mysterious groups were telling him, okay, you have to kill. He said he believed he killed 13 people, but again, wouldn't go into any specifics. He just kept saying that these mysterious entities were ordering him, making him kill. I know he was the suspect for years in the death of Rochester, New York man, Wendell Barnes. We talked about him a little bit earlier. Again, I don't think he was ever charged with that murder either. But years later, Christopher admitted to a psychiatrist

that he had killed Wendell Barnes. And I think that goes back to one of our earlier talking points, which is how many murders is this guy really responsible for? I definitely think more. Well, he says 13. So you could take him at his word. And I don't think it's probably far fetch to think that he was responsible for that many and maybe even more. Sure. Christopher spent time at a number of prisons, Attica, Clinton State prison in Danamora.

And these are all very famous prisons. Yeah. Great Meadow State Prison and Comstock. I do think he spent quite a bit of his time in protective custody, which is probably why he lived as long as he did. I have to imagine that there were quite a few inmates at these various prisons who would have loved to have gotten their hands on Joseph Christopher. Yeah, the fact that you got out of Attica. Alive. Yeah, it was impressive right there.

It was at Great Meadow. that Joseph Christopher died in 1993 at the age of 35 from a rare form of male breast cancer. Really? So there were some reports that he had gained quite a bit of weight. But man, 35 years old, it's young. It is young. And you don't hear of that many men dying from breast cancer. No, no, you don't.

I mean, I know it's real, you know. Yeah, it has. You just don't hear about it a lot. So to me, it's a pretty wild case. You have a man who, from all accounts I read, was not racist growing up. Obviously, something changed. And as he put it, he started seeing black people as devils. And his answer to this was to kill him.

Kill. Yeah. Now, he has said he killed as many as 13. he wasn't convicted. No. Of all of those. But I don't think there's any doubt. He killed more people than for what he was convicted.

I think that's safe to say. I agree with you. He's admitted to murders that he was not convicted of. Joseph McCoy, the ballistics all match. I think they just chose not to go through with a lengthy trial. Now, did he kill the two cabbies? I don't know, but I certainly wouldn't put it past him. You can say, and I think a lot of people have said, well, the M.O. was totally different. Right. And it was. But as I said, he did change his M.O. up quite a bit. He went from shooting his victims to stabbing. So to me, it's not out of the realm of possibility. It could have been him. Yeah, that he killed the. two cab drivers and cut out their hearts. It's definitely a way to, if you wanted to throw somebody off, it's a way to do it.

And, you know, again, look at the fact that he joined the army a week or so after these murders. Yeah. The timing is very suspicious. But it's also certainly possible that there was another killer operating in that area at the same time. No doubt about it. We've seen that. time and time again, you know, when we research a case, what's going on over here, you know?

Sometimes it's scary. It actually really is. I mean, hell, there could have been five, ten different killers. Yeah. Operating. So I don't think we'll ever know for sure. And the same goes for some of the other murders that he's been linked to. Some he's even confessed to, but again, was never charged.

And, you know, maybe it was because they've been linked to. didn't have enough evidence or in some cases because authorities knew that it was almost a futile effort because he had racked up so much in the way of, you know, prison sentences, he was never getting out. I think one of the biggest questions to me Gibbs in this story is what happened to Joseph Christopher to make him start killing black people. As we mentioned, Didn't seem to be racist. Right. Didn't seem to have any animosity against black people up to a certain point in his life.

So what was the trigger? Right. Something changed. Did it have something to do with his mental health issues? Yeah. I mean, look, he tried to admit himself to a facility, got turned away, and within a couple weeks, he started killing. Yeah.

So when I say the timing of him. going into the army is suspicious. Yeah. Well, so is the timing of when he started murdering from when he was turned away from this mental facility. Obviously, it's hard not to try to make a connection there. Yeah, I just, you know, to be turned away from a place like that, if you self-identify, you're, you know, you're saying, hey, I need help.

It's not my friend. It's not my family bringing me here. It's me. I'm coming to you saying, man, I know I need help. I just don't understand why they don't hold those individuals a little bit longer. Well, okay, back then. Again, in 2020, I think things would be totally different. Sure.

In 1979, I can't speak to how it was handled other than what was stated in the newspaper, which was, we don't think you're a danger to yourself. We don't think you're a danger to others, so we can't keep you here. Maybe back then people were checking them because they just wanted to, at a warm place to stay. I don't know. Could have been. There was also some mention of the fact that a lot of these facilities around the

country had been phased out. They were like downsized. Okay. So there wasn't as many facilities as maybe there had been in the 60s, early 70s, maybe. That's the kind of the feeling I got. And so they were turning away people that maybe they wouldn't have before. Yeah. Well, this is definitely one that should have.

Then admit it. In hindsight, there's no doubt. Yeah. Was it losing his job? Maybe he felt betrayed by his good friend who was African American. Sure. I don't know. I don't think anyone really knows because he didn't say as far as I could tell other than

there was things in my head telling me that all black people are devils why he started doing this. Yeah. Probably multiple things. Well, it usually is, right? I mean, is it ever just one thing? I mean, sometimes rare. I think it's rare.

I think more often than not, it's a confluence of events. Yeah. That causes somebody to do something like this. Maybe every negative event that he had leading up to the murders was associated with somebody that was black. And that's what made him think the thought. he had. I don't know, Gibbs. At the end of the day, I think Joseph Christopher took a lot of secrets with him to the grave. That's what I think. Oh, yeah, for sure. And there are many things about him and his

murders and some of his cases that we'll probably never know 100% of the details. But that's it. That's it for the case of Joseph Christopher, the 22 caliber killer, the Midtown Slasher, quite possibly the Huntsman. We got some voicemails Gibbs. You want to check those out? I was here. Hi, I actually just checked out your guys' podcast, the very first episode of, for me at least, it was for William Scott Day.

And I actually, that is my grandfather, funny enough. I was looking up an article about him and I saw your podcast. I just actually listened to it. I'm sorry, I might have a little shaky. It's weird to hear way more than I've ever heard in my life. And I just sent it to my father, too. So hopefully you can check it out and get some more information and maybe even get a hold of you guys and let you know about them, you know.

Obviously, it wasn't the greatest guy. I don't know anything about them. But yeah, thank you for shedding some light on that. I continue to be amazed at people that have connections and this and that. This is different. Gibbs, this is, you know, you finding out about your grandfather, probably things that you didn't know because, you know, quite frankly, your parents probably would have wanted to shield you from some of the really bad horrific details, right? That's not something you sit down and you tell a

five-year-old or a six, seven, eight, nine, ten-year-old. You know, him saying he was shaky, I get it. If I didn't know that much about, you know, a relative and then come to find out that they were kind of a horrific killer. Yeah. I think I'd be pretty shaky as well. You know, these people that have ties to these cases, especially this one. I just don't know how those conversations would be, you know, dinner time or holiday events, you know, do you talk about it? Do you never talk about it?

You know, do you sit around the table and say, hey, you know, grandpa did some spree killings, he escaped some from prisons? That's grandpa. That's your grandpa. That's why he's not here. Well, obviously, I don't think they had talked about a lot. He sounds like he didn't know much about it. Yeah. Now, what would future conversations be?

Okay, he listened to it. He sent it to his dad. Right. I imagine the next time they get together, they might have to, a couple of things to talk about. Yeah. What's up, Fergie? What's up, Gibby? This is John from Florida.

I got to say, I'm probably one of your biggest fans. I'm not a Patreon supporter, but I'm also a very broke college student. You know, when we're making that good money, I got you guys. But anyways, I've been listening to you guys for probably about a year now. You guys know our work day go by really quick. Anyways, I've been going through your episodes trying to see if I could find a very specific one to see if you've covered it. And I couldn't find it. Maybe you haven't.

I couldn't find it. But I think I've listened to every single episode and I have yet to see it. Anyways, it's the murder of Jerry Michael Williams. It happened down here in Tallahassee, Florida. I think it would be a really, really interesting case. There's so many rabbit holes. And there's a lot of information out there about the case. I know you guys struggle with that sometimes.

He died while he was duck hunting, and the original theory was that he was eaten by an alligator after he fell in the water. My dad has been really good friends with the group of guys that he always hunted with, and I, in turn, have been hunting with them my entire life. I never got to personally meet Jerry or anyone involved with the case.

Super interesting case. Not really near and dear to my heart, but just very interesting to me, considering it so close by. Kind of hit close to home, I guess it would be the way to say it. Anyway, sorry. for rambling guys make sure to stay safe keep your own time ticking peace out hey sounds like an interesting case you had to send that over to true crime all the time at gmail dot com and we can oh there's no need

as soon as i heard the voicemail i looked it up so i've got it down you already got it written down i actually have some research done already man you are the man because it is very interesting yeah you know this whole was he eaten by an alligator and then it's um there's some strange facets to it. So he's right about that. Pulls you into it. It'll be a future T-Cat. I know it will. Hi, Mike and Givie. This is Sarah from Indianapolis, Indiana. I cannot choose a team, and I will say that the reasoning behind that is, I don't like either of you anymore. I am now addicted to Best Beans. I have listened to every single episode, and as soon as you guys started the advertisement for Best Beans, I have been neglecting my life duties.

and staying up much later than I've ever stayed up before in my life. So thank you for turning me on to something so mind useless. But I appreciate your podcast very much. And in reality, I love both of you. And please advertise for something not so time consuming or addicting or obsessive in the future. Love you. Thank you. So this voicemail, the timing couldn't have been any more perfect.

we just happen to have Best Fiends as a sponsor on this episode. Oh, wow. So, hey, it is one of those games. And depending on your personality, it can be, you know, pretty addicting. I get addicted to a lot of games. You do. And I think I even say it in the ad, any of those games where you go from this level to the next level.

Right. Okay, well, I want to get to the next level. Yeah. Well, now I want to get to the next level. and that just becomes kind of a thing for me. Like, I'm almost there. I won't put it down as I get there. Then I'll put it down.

And you're like, oh, man, I'm almost to the next level. Yeah. I'm making good. This is Brian from Utah. I just think listening to your episode on Peter Coton. When you said his head was in the Ripley's Museum at Wisconsin's out, I thought that was awesome because that just so happens to be where my family and I are planning our honeymoon in the next couple months.

So we'll have to go check that out. I'll let you know how it is. Love the show. Love what you guys do. Thank you so much for keeping me occupied during work and make me. And thank you to keep your own time taking. Yeah, it is bizarre. I've seen some people sent some pictures over to us of that head.

It is strange. It really is. So I have to tell them myself. When I first heard that voicemail, I thought, it's really strange to plan your honeymoon around Ripley's, believe it or not. Yeah. But then I smartened up and I thought, no, they're going to. Wisconsin Dells. And they just thought, okay, since we're already going to be there, we could jump over to

Ripley's. There you go. So I'm telling on myself and my distorted way of thinking. All right, Gibbs, no mail bag this week. No mail bag. I know we got something good coming next week. Okay. That's already been relayed to us.

Oh. But that's it for another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike and Gibby. Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.