True Crime All The Time - Judy Buenoano

Episode Date: December 20, 2021

Prosecutors described Judy Buenoano as a black widow and said she was one of the most cold-blooded killers they'd ever encountered. She was a callous serial killer who murdered husbands, boyfriends, and even her own son. And, she did it all to get her hands on the life insurance of these individuals. Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss Black Widow Judy Buenoano. She had no trouble attracting men, often embellishing both her education and accomplishments. Judy committed most of her murders by using poison. But, it was her last attempted murder, the use of a car bomb, that caused her to be caught. Most have theorized that if she had not tried the car bomb, she may have gotten away with all of her murders.You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation information.An Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 264 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in True Crime, Mike Gibson. How are you? I'm good, man. How about you? I'm doing great. Yeah. You know, the holidays are sneaking up on us.

Really close. Very quickly. We do need to make an announcement that this will be our last true crime all the time for a couple of weeks. Yeah, taking a couple weeks off. Yep. So until after the new year. And I'm excited. And I'm really excited to get to spend a little bit more time with family over the holidays because for the last five years, it's not something that you and I have been able to do a lot of.

Right. We haven't taken a lot of time off. We have not. Especially a couple of weeks at a time. So I'm kind of excited. Well, good. I am too. Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shoutouts.

We had snowflakes. Hey, snowflakes. Francis Banks. What's going on? Hey. Appreciate that, Francis. Angie Moore. Hey, Angie.

Kate Banks. Well, what's going on, Kate? Dirk Coomling. Well, the name like Dirk. Dirk. Yeah. Very strong. It is strong.

Makes me think of the guy from the 18th. Dirk. Dirk Benedict. Yeah. Ginger Abernethy. Hey, Ginger. Samira Niazzi. What's going on, Niazzi?

Brad Duncan. Hey, appreciate that, Brad. Andrea Mueller jumped out to our highest level. Thank you, Andrea. We had Aaron Flaville. Hey, what's going on, Flavel? Andrew. Weatherhead.

There's a name, Weatherhead. Yeah, cool. James Talent. What's going on, James? Sarah White Spear. Thank you, Sarah. Sherry Cal. Hey, Sherry.

Catherine Keegan. What's up, Keegan? Laura Harrington. Hey, man, Harrington. It sounds like a soap opera. Like a very fancy. Dallas show or something. Yeah.

Wasn't there something called the Harringtons? They were part of like Dynasty or one of those shows. I think you're right. Yeah, somewhere down there. And last but not least, Chad Hughes jumped out to our highest level. Hey, thanks, Chad. And then if we go back into the vault, Gibbs, this week we selected Jessica Hughes. Hey, appreciate that, Jessica.

So big shout out to everyone. We had some PayPal donations from Gary Howard. Hey, Gary. Judy Larson. What's up, Judy? And Clara Sutherland. Well, thank you, Sutherland. So we appreciate that as well.

Gibbs, right now, we have an episode out on True Crime All the Time Unsolved. Fairly famous unsolved case. We're talking about the murder of Jill Dan. Yeah, yeah, pretty popular case. We're headed over to Britain to do some British stuff. So you can work on your accent. Exactly. But it's a good case. It's one of them that we're, you know, we're dive into. There was, you know, an arrest, but an acquittal. I mean, everybody pretty much should know that at this point. But we're diving to the suspects and we're at the case stands today. Yeah. It's a very fascinating case. There's no doubt about it. All right, buddy. Are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime, All the time. I'm excited. We are talking about Judy Buono anio. She was a female serial killer, but she didn't kill because of mental illness, bloodlust, or some type of sadistic sexual fantasies. Like some of the serial killers that we've talked about. Sure. Did. Judy killed for money

and not just killed. She inflicted slow, painful deaths on her victims. All of the men she killed were people with whom she was the closest to. We're talking about husbands, boyfriends, and even her own son. Wow. So she was willing to cross any line to get what she wanted. Yeah, absolutely. Prosecutors described her as a black widow and also one of the most cold-blooded killers they'd ever encountered.

Judas Welty was born on April 4th, 1943, and, Quana, Texas. She was the daughter of an itinerant farm worker and a stay-at-home mother. And Judy was named after her mother. Now, there's not a lot of information online about her parents. Find a Grave lists her father as Jesse Otto Welty, born in 1908, and her mother is Mary Lou Northen Welty, born in 1912. But there are some other sources that say that Judy's mother was named, named Judas Welty as well. Judy often said her mother was a member of the mesquite Apache tribe, but apparently Gibbs this tribe does not exist. Yeah, I never heard of that tribe, so that explains why. Well, so there's a couple of things here. For me, I think first off is the name Judas. It's a

somewhat different type of name. I mean, you think about us doing this show for five years. Right. How many Patreon names have we said over that five-year period? It's in the thousands and tens of thousands, maybe. I have never heard of that as a first name ever in my life. Not either. But I bet we get some responses from some listeners that say, oh, yeah. That's my name. Or that was my mom's name.

Or I know somebody with that name. Yeah, we probably will. I think the other thing that kind of jumped out at me is if you were going to say, that your mother was a member of a Native American tribe, well, why would you not pick one that actually exists or did exist or, you know, why would you just make one up out of whole cloth?

That doesn't make any sense to me at all. No. Easier just to say one that actually is out there. Yeah. Now, granted, we're talking about a time without the internet. You couldn't just whip out your phone and Google it.

You know, so I think, so because of that, I think people had to be taken at their word a little bit more. You know, how are you going to dispute that if you can't, you know, research it very quickly or gather facts or, you know, anything like that? Judy had three siblings, but sources only name her brother Robert. Judy never really knew her mother well because she died of tuberculosis when Judy was only four years old. So Judy and her brother, Robert, moved in with her grandparents and her two older siblings were put up for adoption. That's tough. It's really tough. I think any time you're breaking up a family, you're splitting up kids.

Now, four kids is a lot for grandparents to take on. Let's face it, two young kids is a lot. Sure it is. For grandparents to take on. For anybody to take on. But a very tough decision not to take on. not to take all four. Yeah, I don't know if I could do that.

Separate kids like that. As a grandfather? Right. You don't know if you could do that. Well. You're not a grandfather. As anybody, if I knew that there were siblings, I don't think I could separate them. No, I got exactly what you were saying.

I just wanted to give you a hard time. At the age of 10, Judy moved to Roswell, New Mexico to live with her father. He had remarried by this point. Judy experienced severe abuse in her father's home. According to her, she was beaten, starved, burned with cigarettes, and forced to do hard labor around the house. Okay, that's rough. That's extremely rough. At the age of 14, Judy felt like she just couldn't stay in the abuse anymore.

So she scolded two of her stepbrothers with hot grease and she beat her father and stepmother with her hands. feet and basically any type of object that she could find. And for this, she was sentenced to 60 days in jail. So if I'm doing the math here, Gibbs, we're looking at about a four year period, most likely where this abuse had occurred. Sure. It's a long time. Right.

To suffer very severe abuse. You know, does a person at a certain point just get to, you know, a place in their mind where you just say no more. I'm done. I'm not putting up with it anymore. I think some do. And that's what she did. So it sounds like to me.

Now, what she did about it, you know, you could say was wrong, obviously. Yeah. I mean, the courts thought it was wrong. But I don't know way back then what type of services were available. I don't know what type of recourse she would have had. Yeah, you wonder, you know, do they look? into it or not. Yeah, I'm not, I'm not trying to make an excuse for her. But maybe 60 days in jail to her might have been a nice little break. Well, after she served her sentence, a judge asked her if she was

ready to go home. But Judy said she'd rather go to reform school. So I think that probably tells you right there that 60 days in jail was probably some type of respite for her, you know, to the point where she's like, no, I don't want to go back there. Send me to reform school. I'll deal with whatever as long as you don't put me back in that house. Judy was sent to Foothills High School and all girls reform school in Albuquerque. She graduated in 1959 at the age of 16. And really, Gibbs, she never spoke to her family again. She hated all of them. Yeah. She told papers later that she did. She also said of her brother Robert. I wouldn't spit down his throat if his guts were on fire. It's a weird thing to say, but I get what she means. Yeah, it is a very strange way to go about it, right? There's a lot of phrases

that people use. I wouldn't pee on this person if they were on fire. I wouldn't throw water on them if they were on fire. I wouldn't save them if they were on fire. I've heard a number of them. I have never heard somebody say I wouldn't spit down a person's throat if they're not. I wouldn't spit down a person's throat if their guts were on fire. But you're really displaying quite a big level of hatred here. Sure you are. In 1960, Judy moved back to Roswell, New Mexico. She worked as a nurse's aide under the false name Anna Schultz. Judy gave birth to her first son, Michael, on March 30th, 1961. She was 17 years old at the time. Now, Judy never said who Michael's father was, but he may have been a man named Leroy Schultz who was an Air Force sergeant.

Now, Gibbs, you were born around that time. So were you born anywhere near New Mexico? We can't talk about this right now. Okay. All right. I was afraid of that. But, you know, I'm just kind of putting the timeline together here. And could it be a coincidence that your name is Michael?

Your birth year is pretty close there. We'll leave it up for speculation. There you go. How about that? Yeah. Judy met Air Force officer James Goodyear in Texas in 1961. At the time, she was working as a cocktail waitress. They fell in love and they got married on January 21st, 1962.

James and Judy were married for nine years. James Jr. was born on January 16th, 1966. After that, James Senior decided to adopt Michael as his own son. He changed Michael's name to Michael Goody. Kimberly Goodyear was born in 1967. And it was after Kimberly was born that the family moved to Orlando, Florida. I see, I went to school with a Kimmelie Good Year. So I was born in 66, 67, me being held back that one time. Maybe. Never know. You never know. I see a lot of similarities. I think a good conspiracy theorist could really put you in the mix of this thing.

So they're in Orlando, Florida. In 1968, Judy opened Conway Acres Child Care Center in Orlando. She listed James as a co-owner, but he was still serving in the Air Force and wasn't really involved in the business. James was deployed to Vietnam for several months, leaving Judy alone with the three children. Three months after James returned from his tour of duty in Vietnam, he became severely ill. James first felt sick on August 26, 1971, and his condition worsened over the next two weeks. He was admitted to a U.S. Naval Hospital in Orlando suffering from what they called mysterious symptoms. Okay. It's a pretty good catch-all type phrase.

Sure. Yeah. We don't know what's wrong with you. These are mysterious symptoms. It was probably easy to assume maybe it was something that occurred when he was in Vietnam. Could have been. Could have been. I mean, now the doctors were never able to identify the cause of his illness. And I think the other thing that was important was that he didn't respond to any of their treatment. And then James Goodyear died on September 15th, 1971. His official cause of death was cardiovascular collapse and renal failure. No toxicological screening was performed at the time that he died.

I think one of the things that jumps out at me is the, okay, cardiovascular, the renal failure. I think a lot of people experience that, you know, at the end of their lot. Sure. But is there a root cause? Is there something that is really causing that? Right. Well, they didn't know what it was. So what else could they list as this is what, you know, ultimately caused him to die? And if you're not going to do any type of toxicology work, well, you're probably not really going to be able to get to the bottom of it.

Yeah, you're never going to find what the real root cause was. Judy waited about five days to cash in three different life insurance. policies that James had. In total, she received $85,000 in life insurance and veteran benefits. And then just before the end of the year, Judy's house caught on fire. And she collected another $90,000 insurance payment. So we're talking about $175,000 here in what, 1971. Yeah. That is a boatload of money. What do you think that would equate to today, Gibbs? Pee-bo-be-bo-be-bo-po-bo-po-bo-p-p-p-bo-p-p-p-poo-poo-poo-poo-poo-poo.

Okay. All right. Yeah. So that's just a little bit more than half. I think you're short. I think you're low. I'm 5-Eleven. With the lifts.

With the lifts, with the lifts, 5-11. Oh, yeah, yeah. No, I don't know. You and I always play this game. We don't know what the answer is ahead of time. We never do. I won't know until someone tells us. Right.

Somebody will tell us because they'll use a calculator. I think you're low on this one though. Yeah. Normally I'm with you, but I think you're low. All right. In 1972, Judy moved to Pensacola and began a relationship with a man named Bobby Joe Morris.

They never got married, but Bobby Joe was listed as her common law husband at the end of their relationship. Judy also began having trouble with her son, Michael. He misbehaved in school. It was said Gibbs that he had a pretty low IQ, but Michael wasn't able to receive the type of treatment he needed because the family lost James military benefits after his death. Judy got Michael an evaluation at the state hospital in 1974. And it was after that that she sent him to foster care with a provision for psychiatric treatment. So I found this interesting, right?

Her son Michael needs help. She doesn't have the benefits, right, that would pay for this help. Right. But she's got a bunch of money that she got from her former husband's death. Yeah, she should have a lot of money. But we're assuming that she still had some of that money. Yeah. So really it could be really only one of two.

two things. Either she had blown through a lot of the money, didn't have much of it left, or she knew her son needed this treatment, but she wasn't willing to use her own money. Wow. If you think about it that way, pretty shallow person. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's kind of one of the things that jumped into my head. So what does she do? She puts him into foster care so that the state would then pick up the tab for his psychiatric treatment. That's the way that I understood it. Well, it was the way she probably planned it out, calculated it out, that she'll keep her money and she'll get the state to pay for it, but she'll have to do the one thing

that I don't think too many parents would want to do. Just give up their child. Yeah. I'm just saying if that's the way it really went down, if that was really her thinking, it just adds to what we're going to find out, right? He's a cold person. All she cares about is money. This would be another example of that, besides the fact that we know she's going to kill a number

of men for money. In 1977, Bobby Joe Morris moved to Trinidad, Colorado. He invited Judy and her children to come with him. And just before she left, Gibbs, Judy's house burned down again. And she collected a fire insurance payout. She's pretty good at that, isn't she? Or she is very unlucky when it comes to her houses catching on fire. Yeah.

She also retrieved her son Michael from foster care before she moved to Colorado. And she used the fake name Judy Morris, right? They weren't lawfully married. Right. So that technically was not her real name. And maybe that does lend even more credibility to this kind of swindle-ass I'll call it, yeah, I'm giving up my son into the foster care system so that he can get treatment on the government's dime and then I'll take him back. Yeah, the way I didn't have to pay for any of it.

All right, Gibbs, let's take a break to talk about best fiends. If you've listened to the show for a while, you know I'm obsessed with playing best fiends year round, but hey, it's really great during the holiday season. It's a perfect pick me up when I need a break from all of the holiday action. It's also a great break for me in between all the writing and research and everything that goes into putting out the podcast. Sometimes you just need that entertainment break. And Best Feens does it for me. Best Feens has it all. An amazing storyline, collectible fiends, and tons of fun puzzles to solve.

In my opinion, it's the best puzzle game out there. And you don't need Wi-Fi. You can play Best Fiends wherever and whenever you want with offline mode. And not to brag, I just passed Level 300. But even still, Best Fiends has literally thousands. of levels with more being added all the time. So there's always a fresh challenge waiting for me when I need a mental pick me up. And I'm telling you right now, you're going to love the puzzles, you're going to love all the characters that you can collect. Download Best Fiends free today on

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with sales up to 25% off. In 1978, Bobby Joe became sick. And he was exhibiting the same mysterious type of symptoms as James Goodyear had. He was admitted to the hospital on January 4th, 1978. And again, doctors could not identify the cause of his illness. But unlike James Goodyear, Bobby Joe was released from the hospital on January 21st, 1978, after recovering from his illness. But just two days later, on the 23rd, he collapsed at the dinner table and was rushed back to the hospital.

This time, he was even more severely ill. and he died on January 28th from cardiac arrest and metabolic acidosis. Sounds like a painful death. Doesn't sound good at all, but just the next month. Judy cashed in three life insurance policies. Bobby Joe had taken out totaling $23,000. So not as much money. No.

As was in the case of her first husband. But Bobby's family was highly suspicious. They believed he was murdered, but apparently didn't say anything at the time. The reason they thought Judy might have killed him is because Bobby Joe's mother overheard the couple discussing a murder. Bobby Joe also made a very strange deathbed confession. And this revolves around the fact that Judy was suspected in a 1974 Alabama murder case. That year, Judy and Bobby visited his hometown of...

Bruton, Alabama. And during their visit, a Florida man was found dead in a motel room in Bruton. The police traced an anonymous call from a pay phone to the motel room. They found the man fatally shot with a 22 caliber gun. And his throat was slashed for good measure. Leaving nothing to chance. I was going to say, somebody was not going to take the chance that the gunshot alone was going to kill him. They slashed his throat to make sure there was no doubt that this man was going to die. The problem was the Bruton police didn't find any fingerprints. They had no gun, no murder weapon, no bullet and no possible suspects.

But according to various papers, Bobby Joe's mother overheard Judy telling Bobby the son of a bitch shouldn't have come up here in the first place. He knew if he came up here, he was going to die. All right. She's just saying how it is. Yeah, I think as a mother-in-law, though, you hear that. And you got to be wondering what in the heck is going on here. And it was while Bobby Joe was delirious on his deathbed that he blurted out,

Judy, we never should have done that terrible thing. The problem was police could never find enough evidence to charge Judy. in the murder. On May 3rd, 1978, Judy legally changed her name to Judy Bueno Anyo, which is Spanish for Goodyear, as a tribute to James. Then in June of 1978, she and her children moved back to Pensacola, Florida. In June of 1979, Judy's son Michael dropped out of high school and joined the army. He was 19 years old. He was assigned to Fort Benning, Georgia. On his way there, he stopped to visit Judy. But when he arrived at Fort Benning on November 6th, he showed signs of severe illness. He was very, very sick. Michael was diagnosed with arsenic poisoning. The physician found seven times the normal

level of arsenic in his body. It's extreme. It's extreme. And the problem was they could do anything to reverse the damage that was already done. Six weeks after the first exposure, his arms and legs had atrophied so much that he couldn't walk. He couldn't use his hands. So beginning in January of 1980, Michael underwent three months of physical therapy at Walter Reed Hospital. He was then transferred to Tampa for long-term physical therapy and occupational rehabilitation for what they called profound heavy metal neuropathy. And apparently this is defined as a degeneration of nerves outside the spinal column, which leaves a person with no nerve or muscle function below their knees and elbows.

Okay. Well, that's tough. That's really tough. You kind of need both of those to be able to use your legs, use your hands. Kind of work together. Yeah. Michael's doctors gave him heavy metal braces to support his limbs. This gear that they outfitted him with Gibbs was said to have weighed 60 pounds.

I'm kind of picturing the old knights in their armor, you know, all that stuff weighed so much. I don't even how they fought in it. Yeah, I mean, you know, obviously he had to have this to be able to even, you know, get around, but wow, 60 pounds. Michael's doctor warned him that he'd need to make adequate safety provisions if he ever made the decision to go out on the water because he could no longer swim. Well, 60 pounds of metal on you.

Not going to help. Well, I think even without that. Right. You're not going to jump off of a boat into the water or jump into a lake or even weighed into a lake very far because your body is just not going to allow you to swim. at this point. And the reason why we're talking about this is it comes up later, obviously. Sure. Michael was officially discharged because Judy said she was going to take him to long-term rehabilitative care in Pensacola. She claimed that she spent almost $40,000 in home alterations

to prepare for his return. That's a lot of cash. It is. I mean, we're talking about what, the early 1980s? Judy went to the VA. hospital in Tampa to pick Michael up on May 12th, 1980. Yeah, $40,000, that was a lot of money in 1980. You could buy a heck of a house. Yeah. For an entire house. I don't know what kind of renovation she was doing. On May 13th, 1980, Judy took Michael, James, and Kimberly canoeing on the East River near Milton, Florida. Kimberly stayed on the shore. Judy and James started fishing between 10.30 and 11 a.m. Michael sat in a lawn chair on the boat.

Oh, with a good old lawn chair on the boat action. Yeah. Now this is old style lawn chair, right? Today we have the fold out with the cup holders and very supportive. I'm picturing what we all grew up with as lawn chairs. Yeah. You know, kind of the aluminum tubes, tube frame.

The nylon mesh. Yeah, maybe a little color, maybe not. Yeah. But not real comfortable. No. The way that they were weaved, James later testified that when they were about a mile up river from the bridge, this was about 2 p.m. A snake fell into the canoe.

The canoe hit a submerged log and capsized. James was knocked unconscious. and didn't remember anything until he was later put in an ambulance. Now, he was unsure how the canoe capsized, but James didn't refer to the snake in his written statement to the Army investigator. There was a witness to this event, the guy by the name of Ricky Hicks. He also gave a statement and then later testified at a trial.

He went fishing between 2 and 2.30 p.m. and it was Ricky Hicks who retrieved Judy and James from the river after their accident. What he said was that he saw an overturned canoe in an ice chest floating in the river. He said that Judy told him she, quote, lost the other boy. After a snake fell into the canoe, the canoe overturned, when she tried to hold the snake down with the paddle. He also said that she told him that it was useless to go. back for Michael. Right. You could make a case, Gibbs, for that first part. You could. There is a plausibility aspect there, right? Snake falls in. There's panic. The canoe capsizes

and Michael falls in. We know Michael can't swim. But what type of mother would tell their rescuer, hey, it's useless. Don't even try. Don't waste your time here. Yeah, don't waste your time trying to save my other son. That seems so ludicrous to me that any mother would say something like that. If anything, they'd be saying the exact opposite. Exactly.

Please help me. Do whatever you can. Or they would be trying to, you know, locate him themselves. Themselves. Yeah. And Hicks has stated that Judy, really only seemed concerned for James. He drove Judy's car to a phone and called a rescue squad. He and the sheriff looked for Michael. And one thing gives that he has stated was that the current

was slow that day. The canoe, some of the other debris, it really never moved all that much during, you know, the search time. A rescue squad diver also testified that they found Michael's body three hours later. He said, too, the river was very slow that day. And Michael's body hadn't moved far from where Judy said that the accident occurred. James and Judy both said that Michael was wearing a ski belt. But he was not wearing it when first responders found his body. Now, many people may not know what a ski belt is. Are you familiar with one? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay. My wife does a lot of skiing. Her parents, her grandparents, they've been into skiing for a long time. Her grandmother, still to this day, when we're on the water, we'll only use one of those

old, timey type ski belts. Yeah. That's what she likes. She'll use it just to even kind of bob up and down in the water. So we have a number of them. They're all old and they still work. I used to prefer those in the water. Did you?

Yeah. Because, you know, less restrictive. Yeah. Because you are all about range of movement. Exactly. I needed to move my body. Okay. That's all.

All right. You got to get foot loose. In the water. Crazy like that. So we have a lot of stuff here, Gibbs. Some of it not quite adding up. Some of it being contradictions between what James and Judy said and what eyewitnesses and first responders.

said. Judy told the first responders that she was a doctor. When she gave her statement, she told authorities that the canoe capsized. She said Michael was weighed down by his braces and drowned. Well, they were 60 pounds. 60, 65 pounds. Yeah. She said he was thrown into the water a mile upstream from where Ricky Hicks discovered her and James. Judy and James were able to get out of the water. she said she resuscitated James after finding him face down in the water, but she couldn't find Michael. And she swam downstream because the current was too strong to swim upstream. Again, we've had multiple people say that there really was no current whatsoever. So that doesn't seem right.

But police accepted Judy's statement and essentially closed the case. But Army investigators weren't happy with this. And they started their own investigation on May 28th, 1980. Maybe part of that was that Judy received $20,000 from Michael's military life insurance policy. Michael designated his principal beneficiary to be determined by law. He had two more policies worth $1,000 with double indemnity provisions for accidental death. And on April 5th, 1980, Judy requested duplicates of these policies. Michael had another $15,000 policy with an accidental death benefit of $30,000,

which was purchased on March 22nd, 1978. Kind of busy with all this. There's a lot going on. And then Judy purchased another policy for $20,000 on October 8, 1978. This one, too, had a double. indemnity accidental death provision. So when it was all totaled up, Judy received a little bit over $100,000 in benefits after Michael's death. Another pretty penny. Well, there's no doubt that she received a lot of money over the years from people in her life dying. Now, could these all be

coincidences, maybe. Could somebody have that much bad luck, that much tragedy befall them? It's possible. Sure. Now, we know that's not the case with Judy Bueno anio. We know that. We're going to find that out. But I think when you look at, especially with Michael, okay, this is a lot of different types of policies. They just all happen to have, you know, the kind of accidental death. the double indemnity provisions, that seems strange, that then he ultimately dies of this accidental death. I think it seems strange to many, but really strange to the sheriff's department, especially when they found out Judy had taken out civilian life insurance policies on Michael. Kind of a red flag, right? Yeah. And then I think an even bigger red flag was when handwriting experts

believe that Michael's signature on the documents were fake. So none of this looked good for her, right? It's all pointing to her taking out a bunch of policies, maybe setting up this scenario where her son would fall into the river and drown. Right. But again, as had happened before, the authorities, however much suspicious, they had. They just didn't have enough evidence to charge her with insurance fraud, let alone murder, and the case got dropped. She got lucky. Later that same year, Judy began dating a man

named Gerald Dossett. He became mysteriously ill and died. Now, Judy is suspected of murdering him, but she was never charged with anything related to his death. And there's really not much out there, Gibbs about Gerald or his relationship with Judy. But he could have been a victim of hers. Yeah, we just don't know. There's really not much out there. We don't know if she collected life insurance policies or anything like that. Judy eventually opened a beauty salon in Gulf Breeze, Florida.

She began dating a man named John Gentry. He was a businessman from Pensacola. Judy told John that she attended nursing school. that she had a PhD in biochemistry and psychology and had recently completed a tour of duty as head nurse at West Florida Hospital. Hey, if you're going to puff yourself up, you might as well go full bore.

Well, that's the way I feel about it too. Right. If you're going to submit your resume, you're going to pepper it up a little bit. Yeah, I always put down on my resume. I'm the CFO. CFO? CFO.

Oh, CFO. Yeah. Yeah. I don't want to go too extreme and say CEO. Oh, okay. So you'll take a step down, one step down and say you're the CFO. Exactly. You know, it's kind of believable.

Even if you're a temp. Exactly. Even if you had a temp job. Yeah. You were the CFO. That's right. Well, I hope nobody that you work with is listening because now they know how you got to where you are today.

There you go, yeah. But hey, a PhD in both biochemistry and psychology. That is very impressive. That's a dedicated study there. So this all culminated with John becoming infatuated with Judy. He bought her expensive gifts, paid for them to go on cruises. He even had champagne imported just for her. That's some infatuation there.

There's a big time. Import some champagne. I can't even get you to give me sparkling water. No, because you don't need sparkling water. You drink it out of the faucet just like the rest of us. And I'll be happy with it out of my plastic cup here. Where do you think that he imported that champagne from? France.

Where in France? Champagne. Champagne. Okay. I just wanted to see if you knew or not. Or some people might say champagne, Illinois. Or Champagna? Oh, Champagna.

That's a good one there. I'm not going to lie. I was actually impressed that you knew that. I thought I was going to get you there. Yeah. I am a world traveler. You are. I should have known.

In October 1982, Judy told John that they should take out life insurance policies on each other. They each purchased a $50,000 policy and named the other as the beneficiary. But Judy later went behind John's back and increased his policy to $500,000. Okay. Now, she paid the premiums herself. Sure. She didn't want him to know.

Sure. But I think we can all see where we're headed here. Yeah, it certainly made me nervous when you started flinging those policies around to me. Well, you know, 15 policies. I didn't feel like that was excessive to have out on you. I pay the premium, so where you care? Well, there's a reason why I care. But here's the other thing that did kind of cause me to pause for a little bit.

You're not married. You've met this person. Okay, I get it. You're infatuated. with her, but this person comes to you and says, hey, let's take out life insurance policies on each other. Yeah. Why? Because we're in love, man. Well, to be fair, love will make you do some strange things. It will. You know, it can cloud your thinking, sometimes cause you to do things that you normally wouldn't do. This one just seemed like a real kind of head scratcher to me.

Yeah, I don't think I would feel the need to open up a life insurance policy on somebody. No. Now, I haven't dated in a long time. Right. Right. I've been married for over 25 years. I feel pretty comfortable with the life insurance policies that we have. If something happened and I had to start dating again, and a woman came to me that I was dating

and said, hey, let's take out life insurance policies on each other. I would say, why? And have you been talking to Gibby? Yeah. And what do you have plans? Yeah. In December 1982, John suddenly caught a cold. Judy gave him what she said were vitamin C capsules to help him feel better.

Okay. It's very nice. My wife does the same thing. Yeah, just trying to take care of you. Sure. But instead of getting better, John experienced some extreme nausea and vomiting. When he told Judy about his symptoms, she told him to take a double, dose of the vitamin.

You're not taking enough, honey. Take more. That'll help you. John checked himself into a hospital on December 16th. He recovered and was released on the 28th. That's 12 days in the hospital. Believe me, I know what it's like to be in a hospital for an extended period time. It's no fun.

It's no fun, but it also, I think, shows you kind of the level of illness that he was experiencing to have to stay in there that long. But when he was in there, he started to feel better. Well, and he also had stopped taking Judy's vitamins, right? But I don't think that John thought about that at the time. I don't think he put two and two together. Judy gave him another vitamin when he got home. He got sick again, but eventually recovered.

So, I mean, that tells me right there that John didn't believe that it was the vitamins that were making him sick. On June 25th, 1983, Judy announced that she was pregnant at a dinner party. John went out to get some champagne to celebrate. That's what people would do. The problem is when he started his car, a bomb exploded.

He was seriously injured and trauma surgeons barely saved his life. That's getting really serious here. So let's look at the. this timeline just a little bit, Gibbs. You had the insurance policies taken out in October of 1982 just a couple of months later is when John began getting very, very sick in December of 82. But then it goes all the way to June of 1983. And that's when the bomb exploded that almost killed him. the police weren't able to interview John until June 29. And that's when they learned about the life insurance policies that he and Judy had.

It's also when the police began looking into Judy's background and found out that she had pretty much lied about her entire life story. Yeah. They also learned that Judy wasn't actually pregnant. It's because she could not be pregnant. medical records showed that she had been sterilized in 1975. So her life is a big web of lies. And more was about to come out. Police found out that Judy had booked a cruise for herself and her children later that summer.

But she didn't purchase a ticket for John. They also found out that she'd been telling her friends since November of 1982 that John had a terminal illness. again go back to the timeline yeah right november this is a month after the life insurance policies were taken out she's definitely trying to set this up yeah trying to prepare everyone for the fact that john's going to die yeah imagine how john felt when he found this out well there was a lot in the research about the fact that he was extremely disturbed when this information came to light he informed the police that Judy had been giving him vitamins that made him feel sick. And it was really these vitamins Gibbs that were the key that allowed police to uncover

Judy's crimes that had occurred over about the past decade. So police got a hold of these vitamins and they sent them to a lab. Testing confirmed that the vitamins contained arsenic and formaldehy. Okay. A couple of things that you really don't want to. to be ingesting. No. Voluntarily or involuntarily, for that matter.

It's not good for you at all. But even so, the Florida state attorney declined two file charges of attempted murder against Judy, citing insufficient evidence. Well, I think they just needed something more than that to go to trial with. Yeah, normally when you have insufficient evidence, it just means you need more. You don't have enough. Hence the word. insufficient.

But I like where your head's at. You know, it's better than what it has been in before. In the past? Yeah. Okay. Also like when you pick up your cup and talk right into it, right to the side of it. But they weren't going to give up on Judy.

Police and federal agents searched her house on July 27th, 1983. And they found some wire and tape in her bedroom that matched what was used in the car bomb. That is a special. special skill, though, to place a car bomb and make sure that it goes off. It's not something just someone randomly can do. Well, no. Could have some knowledge. Well, and let's face it, this is 1983. You can't just, you know, hop on the computer and say, how do I make a car bomb? Right. Now, could you go to the library? Could you get literature? Yeah, there were a lot of books,

you know, written over time. What's that? famous one. How to make a car bomb? No. The anarchist cookbook. Oh yeah. That comes up in a lot of true crime cases. I don't know if that would have contained that type of information.

But I'm sure if she tried hard enough, she could find that information somewhere. You just couldn't Google it. Right. They also found marijuana and a sought off shotgun in James Jr.'s room. So they arrested him for drug and a legal. legal weapons possession. Judy was arrested that same day at her beauty shop on attempted murder charges. Judy paid her bail and was released.

Then in mid-August, the police traced the dynamite. She used in the bomb through long-distance calls to Alabama. Okay, this is good. This is going to help out. It's good police work. Sure is. Sounds like it. Detective Ted Chamberlain worked a case initially.

He learned that Judy. name meant Goody's name meant Goody's. Her record showed she was married to James Goodyear, who died of a mysterious illness. Then they discovered her connection to Michael and Bobby Joe's deaths. Chamberlain found records from the Army investigators, who, as we said before, Gives, they were suspicious of Judy. They believed Judy had made Michael sick with arsenic poisoning. They also believed that Judy pushed Michael into the water. on May 13th, 1980. Judy was indicted and arrested for the first degree murder of Michael and grand theft on January 11th,

1984. Apparently, she faked some convulsions that night and she was sent to the hospital. But police weren't stopping there. They decided to exhume the bodies of Judy's former husbands and boyfriend to reassess their causes of death. Bobby Joe Morris's remains were exhumed. on February 11th, 1984. It was found that his remains contained arsenic.

James Goodyear's body was exhumed on March 14th, 1984. The medical examiner found high levels of arsenic in his liver, kidneys, hair, and nails. And that really indicated to them chronic exposure. Right. This was not a one-time thing. He had been exposed to high levels. of arsenic over an extended period of time. Seeing a trend here.

In July 1984, the police exhumed Gerald Dossett's body. And his body also showed signs of arsenic poisoning. But Florida police decided not to press charges in this case. And we talked about it, right? There wasn't a lot of information around Gerald. And maybe this is one of the big reasons why, because she was not charged with his. death and so there wasn't a lot of information that came out in the papers. Judy appeared before three

Florida juries from 1983 to 1985. Prosecutors found that Judy got $240,000 from the deaths of her husband, son and common law husband Bobby Joe Morris. She used that money to buy a new car, a diamond ring, start a nail salon, and live what? prosecutors called a lavish lifestyle. They also said Gibbs that she probably would have gotten away with everything if she didn't botch the car bombing and leave a trail of evidence behind. It's scary to think that. It is. It is very scary. But she had gotten away with it, right? Up to that point. So I get what they're thinking was, hey, if she would have stopped or if she would have not botched the car bombing, who would have ever known or who would have ever really looked

into it further? So obviously, Judy was charged with a number of murders, but she also received multiple charges for grand theft and insurance fraud. Judy's first degree murder trial for Michael began on March 22nd, 1984. And she gave four different versions of what happened that day. Something that I know juries always love, right? They want to hear four. different versions of what really happened. Right. You know, your defense attorney can't be happy about that either. Ultimately, investigators determined that she pushed Michael out of the canoe. Former neighbor Constance Lang testified that Judy was ashamed of Michael and that she asked Constance to take Michael from the house whenever visitors came over. She was distant from him, but very close with James and Kimberly. She also said that James and Michael,

had a bad relationship. Kimberly testified for the defense and she said that Judy and Michael loved each other. But she did admit that during an argument, she once said to her mother, just like you killed Michael. Okay. A little damning. Sure. I think. Now, her boyfriend, David Lackey, testified that Kimberly had told him, Judy drowned Michael for insurance money. And Judy was found guilty of drowning Michael on April 1st, 1984. On June 6th, she was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole for 25 years. All right. So she already has one lengthy sentence. Pensacola prosecutor Russell Edgar called Judy the black widow because she prayed on her mates and her young. He said, twisted greed was her only motive. And I don't think there's any doubt

about that. And we have done some greed cases here recently. We've done some in the past. They're always extremely scary to me. You know, let's face it, all the cases we do are scary in one way or the other. When you think about someone making the decision to end another's life, think about a mother, making the decision to end her son's life for a little bit of money. Yeah, that's not going to be there forever. that cash will be spent. It's beyond comprehension, let alone killing husbands and boyfriends and all that, as she did. And next we get to the attempted murder of John Gentry. Not only was Judy charged with that, but her son James was as well.

But on August 10th, 1984, James was acquitted of the attempted murder of John Gentry. Judy went to trial for her attempted murder charges on October 15th, 1984, and took about three days, Gibbs, for Judy to be convicted and sentenced to 12 years for attempted murder. So, you know, obviously not a lot of detail there, but prosecutors must have felt as though James played a role in the attempted murder of John Gentry, whether it was the poisoning or whether they thought he possibly had a hand in making the car bomb, but the jury didn't see it. No.

So he was acquitted, but she was not. Now she's got a life sentence, a 12-year sentence. And then she went on trial for the murder of James Goodyear on October 22nd, 1985. In that trial, the prosecution presented evidence from witness Mary Beverly Owens. Mary said on the stand that Judy confessed to killing James and advised her that she could get arsenic at the supermarket if she needed to poison someone. But I guess she informed Mary that she would have to have a strong stomach to do this because it was a slow and painful process. Okay. Again, something I don't understand.

Okay, maybe this woman was a really good friend. Right. but why would you be confessing to, you know, killing a husband and then also telling her, oh, by the way, if you need to get rid of someone. I got the, I got the stuff for you. Or you can just go to the supermarket. I'll tell you what to buy and how to do it. But you better have a strong stomach because it's not the easiest thing in the world.

Yeah. What a strange conversation. It's a very strange conversation. A woman named Deborah Sims, who lived. with Judy and James at one point testified that James got sick gradually. He occasionally had hallucinations.

She also said that Judy hesitated to take him to the hospital even when he became severely ill. The prosecution also presented evidence that Judy cheated on James with a man named Bob Crawford while James was in Vietnam. Crawford was in jail for drug charges.

And it was on November 6th. 16th, 1985, that Judy was found guilty of murdering James Goodyear. On the 26th, Judy was sentenced to death for his murder. Her execution was set for March 30th, 1998. And a lot of the papers reported Gibbs that she cried and told the judge that she did never kill anybody. She asked the court to spare her life. She asked the judge for mercy. So you were keeping a tally there, right? So we have a life sentence, no parole for at least 25 years. Right. We got a 12 year sentence. Now we got death sentence. All well deserved. I mean, this woman was cold. She was calculating. She was the definition of a black widow. Now, Colorado chose not to prosecute her for Bobby Joe's murder. I'm sure the fact that by the time. that they were thinking about it, she'd already received a death sentence, played a big factor in that.

Judy filed two direct appeals, one for Michael's case and another for James's case. Her defense used their appeal to try to cast doubt on James Goodyear's cause of death. They argued that he was poisoned in Vietnam by Agent Blue, an arsenic containing defoliant. I've never heard of Agent Blue. I've heard of Agent Orange. I never heard of Agent Blue either. Apparently it was something used over there to get rid of the canopy, the foliage. Judy's attorneys also filed an appeal based on the work of an FBI chemist. Her appeal was led by attorney Sylvia Smith. Smith asked the court to unseal FBI documents that she believed would weaken the prosecution's case. In April 1997, the U.S. Department of Justice issued a report detailing their 18-month

investigation of certain components of the FBI's laboratory. Much of this report was sealed, but Smith wanted the documents to bolster her case and argue that the lab was incompetent. So just a tactic to postpone her execution? Well, that's what the prosecution contended, right? she's just trying to delay the execution. Some of Judy's family even helped her with her appeals. They said she was a devout Roman Catholic, a loving mother and a grandmother. She had a hard childhood. And she did when we detailed some of it.

No doubt about that. They believe she was convicted based on purely circumstantial evidence. The Orlando Sentinel reported that Judy's daughter, Kimberly begged the state not to commit a hate crime against God and humanity by executing her mother. A federal court granted Judy a stay of execution in June 1990 while her case was under appeal, but eventually that stay was repealed. And both of Judy's appeals were denied. On March 27, 1998, the courts refused Judy's last minute stay of execution. Her execution was set for 701 a.m. that coming Monday.

Her final appeal was rejected on March 29th, 1998, and Governor Lawton Childe signed her death warrant. In total, Judy spent 13 years on death row. She wrote a lot of letters, crocheted blankets and baby clothes, and she maintained her innocence until the very end. Judy always said she wanted to be remembered as a good mother. She told news outlets in a March 1998 TV interview. I have eternal security and I know that when I die I will go straight to heaven and I will see Jesus.

Judy said that she was tired and ready to go home. She claimed all the tragic deaths were coincidental and she never killed Michael. And she maintained her position that James was poisoned in Vietnam. And this is something that interests me. Gibbs, you know, when a person is convicted, you know, killer, a serial killer, someone who commits multiple murders, do they maintain their innocence the entire time? While they're incarcerated, some do. Yeah. Some eventually say, you know what?

Yeah, I did that. And, you know, I'll talk about it if you want to. I'll give interviews and, you know, they kind of change course. Obviously, she didn't. She maintained her innocence the entire time. I just always wonder, you know, when they're giving these interviews to people, they're saying these things about, hey, I'm comfortable. I know where I'm going.

Right. I'm going to see Jesus. I thought it was strange that she didn't say I was going to see Michael. I kind of would have thought maybe that would have come out of her mouth. Yeah, that would have been a good point. I know at one point she told a journalist, mothers just don't murder their children. Unfortunately, we know that's not true. Some mothers do murder.

They do. They're children. It's hard to imagine. It's never easy for us to understand or, you know, come to, uh, to terms with, but it happens. It does. Sickening. Yeah, it's, it's sickening. Judy Buenoaño was executed on March 30th, 1998.

Gibbs, she was the first woman executed in Florida since 1848. Wow. That's a hundred and fifty years. That's a long time. The day before she was executed. March 29th, Judy met with two of her children, a cousin and a spiritual advisor. They had communion and a final contact visit. Judy slept from 1 a.m. to 4 a.m.

She ate a final meal of steamed vegetables, fresh strawberries and hot tea. Wow. Okay. We talk about final meals a lot. If you know you're going out, at least from my way of thinking, Yeah. I'm not going out with steamed vegetables. No. The fresh strawberries I was okay with. Yeah, that's okay. That was about the only thing on that list I was okay with. My wife makes steamed vegetables all the time. I don't even eat them all here.

I sure wouldn't ask for them as my final meal. She just makes them because she wants me to be healthier. She wants me to lose weight. I know why she's making steamed vegetables. You're going to have your salami and your olives and your cheese. I might go charcutory. Yeah. That is for sure. But, you know, we've talked about it before.

I'm going all out, man. From whatever I can get. Yeah. Nowadays, it would be different. But back then, I might be able to get a filet. I might be able to get a lobster tail and some crab legs and heavy butter all over. Oh, I'm going to surf and turf. Yeah.

I'm not going steam vegetables, though. I can tell you that right now. You're not worried about clogged. I'm not worried about any. at that point. Judy was said to be talkative and upbeat, but then that all changed. When it came time to face her execution, she was described as pale and terrified. The Orlando Sentinel wrote, gone were the painted manicured fingernails and the fashionable dark

hair. Gone was the tough edged woman who drove around Pensacola and a Corvette and told bigger than life stories about her life, her business, and her Chanel perfume. She wasn't the same person who had boasted that Florida would never execute her. She was simply an old frightened woman.

And there you have. And this is something else that you and I have talked about before. You know, people talk big and bad. And then sometimes that changes. The moment that you're being walked, the moment that you're being strapped in to, you know, whether it's the gurney or the electric chair or whatever it may be back in the day.

Right. Some people can't keep up that facade, that kind of stone face. You know at that moment you're going to die. 12 civilian and 12 media witnesses attended the execution. Some of the witnesses were her spiritual advisor, James Goodyear's brother-in-law, Orange Osceola Chief Judge Belvin Perry and Dusty Rhodes, a state attorney investigator

and one-time professional wrestler. That's the Dusty Rhodes we're thinking. No, Dusty Roads has come up, I believe in another case, at least one other case that we've done. Because I feel like we talked about it once before. We have. It was said Gibbs that Judy Grimmis

during the preparations. She closed her. eyes when an officer asked if she wanted to make a final statement. She simply said, no, sir. Judy was strapped into the chair. The staff started the electricity at 708 a.m. It cycled for about 38 seconds. And Judy was pronounced dead at 7.13 a.m. I always think about that movie with Tom Hanks. Green Mile. Yeah. When they got to make sure they get the sponge wet. Yep. I mean, I think there have been a lot of movies that probably had the electric chair in them. Yeah.

But to me, I think you're right. I always go back to the green mile. Number one, it was so vivid. It was so in your face, that one scene of what happened when everything went wrong. Judy was only 54 years old when she died. We mentioned it, right? She maintained her innocence. She never made a confession.

but I think most people believe that doesn't matter, right? The police found significant evidence against her, both physical and circumstantial. She lied about her personal life. There's no doubt she committed insurance fraud. She killed the people who loved her. Well, she also caused her victims to suffer painful deaths. And for what? To me, it all comes back to that question.

Why? Greed. Easy. insurance payouts, just wanting money and thinking that, okay, the best way for me to get it is to kill these people. Could you not have put the money together to start your own nail salon and, you know, build it into a thriving business and made your money that way? Probably so. Yeah. Many people have done it, but there's always those people who are looking for the straightest line, the easiest way.

The shortcut. And, you know, she was one of those individuals. And I also think, you know, you look at, okay, when she did it the first time, did she think, okay, I got away with this. And man, it was really easy. Right. I'll do it again. I think that it has a big part to play into this.

I really think it does. Now, did people suspect her? along the way. Yes, we talked about that. But police couldn't pin anything on her. She probably at a certain point thought, I could keep doing this. They're never going to be able to pin anything on me. They might be suspicious. They might think I've done it. I don't care if they think I've done it or not. As long as I'm not going to jail and I'm getting all this money, I'm going to keep doing it. Yeah. She felt invincible. She's like the Teflon Don, but not. Don. Yeah, that's a good way to put it. But she was definitely a nasty person. I mean,

there is no way around that. Yeah. You know, I mentioned it already, but you know, to kill husbands, to kill boyfriends, horrible, to kill your own son. That is beyond comprehension. Yeah. For, you know, a little bit of money. Exactly. Now, it wouldn't make it right for $10 million. I'm just saying when you look at it from the standpoint of what she got, how could you even think that that's worth it? Now, when you add in stories about the fact that she didn't like Michael, she was ashamed of Michael, she made people take him when visitors came over. Okay. Did that play a role in it? Well, maybe so.

Maybe. And probably. But that's it for our case on Judy. Bueno on you. We got some voicemails, Gibbs. You want to check those out? Let's check them out. Hey, Mike and Gibby.

This is Katie from Western Massachusetts. I'm listening to the Earl Richmond Jr. episode, and Mike brought up how his grandfather was a drill instructor and how he couldn't reconcile the grandfather's personality with the fact that he had been a drill instructor. And I just wanted to call in with a bit of insight. Before I left for basic training for the Army in 2004, my father gave me some advice that helped me through my nine weeks, which was, don't take it personal because it's not their personality, it's their job. So it's not necessarily the fact that they're, you know,

naturally mean-spirited or whatever the case may be. It's just that that's what they're trained to do is to, you know, gain compliance and whatnot. Also, listening to Givie, making movie references is literally no different than listening to my husband. And I told him that a conversation about movies between him and Gibby would be ethically hilarious and how frustrating it would be. But keep up the good work. You guys are awesome and keep your own time ticking. Thanks. Well, maybe we can set that up, Gibbs. Maybe we could and record it for a good laugh. It'd be like an IMDB special. Yeah, yeah. So we appreciate the voicemail. You know, I did watch full metal jacket sometime within the last couple months.

And, you know, that guy, he plays a great drill sergeant. He's recently passed away in the last few years. But great actor, great character actor, great depiction of a drill sergeant. And I still, I just cannot see my grandfather doing that because he was kind of a real mild manner type dude. But, uh, yeah, a job to do and he did it well. Yeah. And I'm sure he got in people's faces and called them names and did all of that. Hello, Mike and Jimmy. This is Gadden McAnnell calling you again. I just wanted to let you know. I'm a little bit farther behind on your podcast episodes, but I directly work with the John Collins guy that we had from Michigan. I work with him. I'm a corrections officer, and I own a correctional facility where he is currently in a level of five facility. And there's actually something else.

He's pretty timid in prison. Obviously, he's a lot older now, but, you know, I just wanted to let you know. I got a first side insight with one of these monsters that you talk about. Thank you for listening to my boyfriend. Have a good night and keep your own time ticket. Well, like we always say, Gibbs, we love to hear kind of firsthand knowledge of people that have, you know, interactions with these individuals. And I get it, you know, I don't know how old he is now, but. One of my thoughts about that is, you know, some of these individuals, these serial killers,

they can't be the same person inside that they were on the outside. A lot of these guys are not big and bad. You know, they plan. They take their victims by surprise sometimes. They're not going to overpower everybody in the prison. And especially as they age, they got to be more. more fearful that somebody's going to come after them for the notoriety or whatever. Hi there.

This is Cheryl from Des Moines and I love the podcast. I think everything is fantastic. I dole it out like candy on a weekly basis. I just wanted to tell you I was looking to the recent podcast about the two teenagers who were in on killing the mom and you said something about the the court erred, and I know it looks like aired, and it makes sense in our brains to say erred, and it sounds like 100% better, but it's actually erred. I had an evidence professor who just beat it into our brain, so it's not aired, it's erred,

like burr. And I hate to say it that way, but that's the correct way to say it. So anyway, you keep saying it however you want to, because I don't care, but I will, I will, with your fans. So thanks. Have a great day. Keep your own time ticket. And we'll see you on the podcast. Thanks. Bye. Bye. Well, I told you. I told you was heard. He never said. You never said Jack Squat. I love these voicemails. Number one, you know, I love to learn new things. I always have. But I have to be honest with you. When I first heard it, I thought she was fully, you know what? Yeah. Because I've been saying it that way all my life. I've heard it. on shows or I mean what's the old that old saying to air is human to forgive is divine. Okay, whatever. I look it up.

Yeah, she's right. Yeah. I've never heard anyone say it that way. Erd. But she is correct. And but I'll tell you, I don't know if I can change. I'm 48 years old. Yeah.

If it comes up again, I don't know if I can make myself say erred because it just. doesn't seem right, or even if it is right. All right, but we appreciate that voicemail very much. Gives, we had some mailbag. Amber Pultz sent us in some homemade, personalized ornaments. Very cool. They were cool. D. Perry sent you another K-Barr sport, which I know you love.

Do you. Slice and dice and eating. All the same thing. She also sent a true crime desk calendar for the studio and some chicken chips. Chicken chips. Yeah, like a jerky, but it's a, it's chicken made into like a crunchy chip. I'm excited to try it out. I know you will. Yeah. Because, you know, I'm also, I'm always looking for new kind of keto type snacks and things like that. But we definitely appreciate everyone who send something in through the mail. We love it. All right, Gibbs, that's it for another episode of true crime all the time. Our last episode of 2021, we'll be back with everyone in. 2022. Yeah.

Kind of hard to say. I know. To be honest with you. But for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.