True Crime All The Time - Karla Faye Tucker

Episode Date: December 31, 2018

Karla Faye Tucker grew up hard and began using drugs and selling her body at an early age. On June 13, 1983, Tucker, along with her boyfriend, committed two extremely brutal murders. But it was Karla's time on death row and the fight from many to save her from being put to death that received the most media attention.Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the life and crimes of Karla Faye Tucker. With so many people over the years on death row claiming to have changed, what was it about Karla that drew so many people to try to save her from being put to death?You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 11 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you? Hey man, I'm doing all right. How about you? I'm doing great, man. Christmas is over. Yeah. We're right between Christmas and New Year's. Wrapping up, packing up and putting it outside on the curb. Well, I will say my wife spent all day to day gathering boxes and this and that. and I looked out in the garage and I thought, who's going to take all this? Well, that would be you. Well, yeah, to the curb.

Yeah. Those guys, they must hate Christmas. They're probably like, man, really? Here we go. Well, because first of all, they get Christmas off, right? Oh, yeah. But there's still all that trash that has to be picked up. You know, everybody's trash load doubles up because they got.

And they have one less day. Yeah, one less day to do it. But they have all that extra trash, all the extra stuff just from all the cooking that goes on. Yeah, it's, it's, uh, recycle bins or pull, you know, uh, flowing over. It's, it's a rough day for the, uh, garbage men in USA. How was your Christmas though? Hey, it went good. Good. Yeah, mine was good. Again, we've talked about it before, way too much stuff for the kids. My wife and I were really good this year. We didn't get each other that much. Yeah. Just a few things, but like we always do, I think we went overboard with the kids.

Well, you know. That's because you love them. I know. I don't know where that line. is between spoiling them and you've already crossed that line giving them a good Christmas so Christmas shouldn't be your concern you've already crossed the line man uh all right but they're good kids you got good no they are they're great kids I will say you've got good kids and uh I know that they appreciate what you guys do for yeah they definitely do all right so a little different for us yeah we took this week off we did and it was nice yeah I've spent more time with my family this week than I have in two years. I didn't have to research anything.

No. Just watch some more TV. Binge some stuff. Did you? You're binging? Benge a little bit. Yeah. You like to binge.

I do. I keep my mind occupied. So what we're doing is we're putting out a Patreon episode that you and I recorded back probably during the summer. I think so. I don't know exactly when we did it for a couple of reasons. Number one, to give us a week off. Right. It's a great episode.

It is. And it's going to be episode one. 11-1-1-1. Yeah. But number two, because we wanted everybody to have something to listen to. Yeah. A lot of you're going to make the drive home back to wherever you're, you know, away from grandma's house. Right. Wherever you went for the holidays. Or maybe you're headed off to your, because this will come out, what, right before New Year's Eve? Yeah, a day before New Year's Eve. Yeah, so you can listen to it. Two days before New Year's. Or you can hang on to it and listen to it when you're recovering from your hangover on either way. New Year's Day. But then I, I think,

think an ancillary thing of it Gibbs is it'll give people an idea of what the Patreon episodes are. Yeah, I think so. They are real episodes of true crime all the time. Yeah, good stuff. And I really like this one we did on Carla Faye Tucker. And I think the audience will too. I think it's a great deal. I mean, look, you're getting T-Cat. You're going to get 52 weeks of T-Cat Unsolved next year. And then a couple bucks, you get Patreon and you get to listen to episode on Patreon as well. So it's good stuff. At a minimum nine episodes of us. Yeah. A month. We got some new Patreon supporters. Oh, good. So we had Gohar Powers. Gohar. Gohar. Kimberly Manly. Hey, Kimberly. Gillian Beckford. Hey, Gillian. Jessica Watson. Hey, thanks, Jessica. Beth Shed. Oh, Beth.

Kristen De Trow. De Trow. Yep. Thank you, DeTral. Misty Fult. Oh, Misty. Laura Sparkman. Hey, Laura. Rihanna Willis. Oh, Rihanna. Elizabeth Cloud up hers to the highest level. She's trying to keep from being stormy.

Phyllis Ekoff. Hey, what? Ecoff. Is that what the doctor says? Maybe. Ecoff. Turn your head and Ecoff? Yeah.

Sarah Light. Hey, brighten it up. Nell Elise. Thank you, Nell. Mike Rumble jumped out of our highest level. Hey, Mike. As did Scott Roberts. Hey, he jumped out of our highest level.

Appreciate that, Scott. Kim Miller. Hey Kim. Amanda Short. Amanda. Caitlin Minley. Oh, thank you. Gilly.

Just gilly? Just gilly. Gilly weed. Take some gilly weed. That's from Harry Potter. I know. Strange that, you know that? Strange that I knew that.

Yeah. We are kind of Harry Potter fans. Well, you know, when your kids watch it, you're kind of, you know. You see it. The grand shannon. Ooh, the grand shannon. Shalong. Shal.

He said shlong. Shalong. Shand. Shandon. Shannon. Shannon. Shannon. Shannon. Shan Lynn. No. Scott Cannon. Hey, Scott. Jody Eubank. Hey, one of, uh, Ubank, you know. Bob Eubank. Yeah. Is that here you're thinking of? I'm thinking. Gary Mowles. Hey, Gary. Carol Williams. Thanks, Carol. And Natasha Jones. Hey, thanks, Natasha. And then if we go back into the Vault Gibbs. Sure. This week we selected Mandy.

Oh, Mandy. Oh, Mandy. Yeah. Just Mandy. Yeah, well, that's all she needs. She's got a song about her. What else you need? So appreciate that long time support. And then we had some PayPal support as well. Okay. Amanda McMullen. Thank you, Amanda.

Franka van Lindbergh. What did Franklard van, Van Lundberg? That wasn't even close. It was real close. Actually, the last two were just mumbled. That was, you play it back in slow motion.

Or slow. Play it back in slow motion. Yeah. Or, uh, yeah. And Kate Massey. Hey, Kate. So appreciate all the support. We do.

And not just the financial support, right? Gives you and I talk about it a lot. There's a lot of people that are telling their friends. Oh, yeah. It means a lot. It goes a long way towards helping us out. They do. They do great.

And they're great on social media, man. A lot of, a lot of good buzz out there and just good people. Yeah, I think our Facebook group page that was started up by listeners is up to like 14,000 people. Yeah, keep growing, man. Yeah, growing. Yeah, growing.

You know, where people go in and like the page. You know, like our actual official page. Yeah. Yeah, the one that you put things out on. Yeah. It's awesome. It's great. It's all good.

So no one solved this week because we, you know, we are taking the week off in total. But it's common. Like Gibby said, 52 guaranteed episodes next year. And we're going to be busy. 2019 is going to be a great year. We're going to be busy. It really is. Good thing you don't have a job.

It is a good thing. I still do. Because there's a lot of work to be done. I know. How'd that work out? Wait a minute. You'll be all right. I'll be all right.

All right, Gibbs. Are you ready to get into this episode on Carla Faye Tucker? Yeah, man. I'm ready. All right. Episode 1-1-1. We're going to roll it as we recorded it for Patreon. Right.

So everybody enjoy. Hope you had a great holiday. Hope you have a great New Year's. Absolutely. I hope you get everything you ever want it. And we will talk to you in 2019. All right. See ya.

All right. We're going to dive right in. Let's do it. We are talking about Carla Faye Tucker. And this is a case that received a lot of attention for many different reasons. For one, the details of the crimes committed by Carla and her boyfriend, there were horrific. But secondly, later on, there's going to be a lot of people that worked very hard to keep Carla from getting executed. And we'll dive into that. You know, we'll talk about the reasons behind that as well.

Some people didn't feel that she should have been executed because she was a woman. That came up. There's there's no doubt about it. I mean, people said it. And then you had a number of people that felt she should not have been executed because she found religion in prison and she appeared to have repented. But again, then you had a whole bunch of people. that thought, no, she did what she did. And the sentence that she got should be carried out.

So let's get into background, Gibbs. And she, she had a heck of a one. But this is where we like to start. And I know I'm going to struggle with her name because we just came off a massive research effort into the Carla Hamalka case to turn around and do a case on another Carla that happens to be spelled the same way. Yeah. With a K, it's very, that's not the normal. No. Spelling, right?

Normally, you would see it more often with a C. But both of these Carlos spelled their name exactly the same. So you've got to catch me, man, if I mess up. Like I called, uh, some Daniel, Harry Potter. I called a killer. Harry Potter like a few episodes ago. Harry Potter. And you didn't catch it.

You're supposed to save me. I heard it. I was just letting you roll with it, man. So Carla Faye Tucker was born November 18th, 1959 in Houston, Texas to Larry and Carolyn Tucker. She was the third daughter born to the couple. But like I mentioned, she had an extremely difficult childhood. Her father, Larry, was a longshoreman who worked on the Gulf of Mexico. So he wasn't home a lot, right?

This is a guy that worked long hours away from home. but when he was home, he didn't want to have a lot to do with his daughter, Carla. Now, her mother Carolyn, was a stay-at-home mom in the beginning. But the marriage between Larry and Carolyn was turbulent. They would break up. Then they would reunite. They did this a bunch of times. You know, while the girls were young, and it was extremely difficult on the children.

You know, Gibbs. I mean, I don't know, you don't know, but. You can only imagine. Right. You can't be breaking up in like high school. Right. Well, that's fine when you're in high school.

But when you got three kids, it's tough to do. It's a little different. Yeah. You know, they would ultimately divorce when Carla was 10. And it's during the divorce proceedings that Carla's mother told her that she was conceived as a result of an affair.

So this man that she thought her was her dad wasn't really her dad after all. And maybe that's one reason why he didn't want to have as much to do with Carla as maybe some of the other two girls. He knew this. Now, he decided to raise her as his own, but from the research it appeared that maybe he favored the other two over Carla. They were his biological children. And Carla always felt different from her two sisters. She felt they were prettier than she was. and she was self-conscious about that.

But after finding this out, she knew now the exact reason why she didn't look like them. After the divorce, Carla's mother became a sex worker to make money to provide for the kids. But her entire childhood was just a series of bad decisions. And what seems to me Gibbs to be horrible parenting, Carla's story. started smoking at the age of eight. She progressed to marijuana at 10. By 11, she's shooting heroin. Heroin and 11.

Heroin. Man, that's, that is a serious, serious drug. I'm not saying smoking's good at 8 because it's not. I'm not saying marijuana is good at 10. But to make the jump from marijuana to heroin. That's crazy. By 11 years old. Add on top of that, she starts having sex at

the young age of 12. So take all of that, it's hard to believe that a girl that young, and maybe I sound naive, maybe there are, you know, a lot of kids that are doing this stuff. But for me, it's hard to believe that that a kid that young would be doing all that stuff at that age. But she is hanging with her older sisters who were hanging around with a rough crowd. They scored drugs and hung out with. a biker gang. And it was one of these bikers that Carla had her first sexual experience with at the

age of 12. At age of 12, she had it with a biker? Yes. Okay. I think he was willing to give her drugs. Sure. And pumped her full of drugs and then took advantage of her. Yeah. Now, apparently Carla's father, or who she thought was her father, Larry, was strict. But he, you know, he wasn't home very much when she was growing up before the age of 10. He wasn't around at all after the age of 10. But her mother was not strict at all. And in fact, looked the other way on the girl's drug abuse. All three sisters were into, were into drugs.

There was one story, Gibbs, about Carla's mother catching her with a joint. and instead of being upset that she's smoking, she tells her that she didn't roll it very well. So she was teaching her how to roll a proper joint. Right. That was a story that I read. It's all in keeping it tight, you know, that's what I hear. I was going to say, I don't know.

I wouldn't know. Back in the day, you know, I did grow up through the 70s. Yep, I know you did. Now, Carla dropped out of school at the age of 14. after reportedly failing the seventh grade three times. And I know that's something you know a lot about. It's tough. Easy on me now.

The seventh grade was very tough for a lot of people. That hurt. You didn't go three times. No, but it still hurt. But if that's not bad enough, right, all the drugs, the early sexual encounters, dropping out of school at the age of 14, after that, her own mother, got her involved in sex work. The pair began to follow some of the big bands of the day. So we're talking about the Eagles, one of my all-time favorites. I love the Eagles. The Olman Brothers.

The Eagles is my favorite, by the way. Is it? Hotel California, my favorite song. Yeah. Why did you change your voice and say it in a different way? Did I say it in a different way? Yeah, you said it. It sounded like you're from Texas all of a sudden. Did the Rex come out? Yeah, big time. Probably did. But, you know, two really good bands. I really did like, I do like the Eagles a lot. So they're, they're kind of groupies for these bands, but they're also traveling around as sex workers.

She's 14 years old. And her mother is teaching her. First, how to roll a joint. Now how to make money in the sex industry, however you want to say it. She wanted me to go out and be schools on how to be a good call girl, the best call girl. I didn't want to be doing them.

I was ashamed of what I was doing. And at that time, I mean, my mother was everything to me. She was my idol. She was my star. I idolized my mother. She was my role model and I wanted to be like her and make her proud of me. So that's Carla. And we're going to hear from her a couple times in the episode.

Carla was married for a short stent at the age of 16. She married a mechanic named Stephen Griffith. And I found a Houston Chronicle article. Gibbs, where Griffith was quoted as saying, we fist fought a lot. I've never had men hit me as hard as she did. I think that tells you something about Carla. Yeah. There was some things in the research about the fact that she was a tomboy. You know, she kind of had this tomboy, badass, tough girl image. But Carla's mother died in 1979 when Carla was 20. And this was the tough for her. I mean, you heard it in the clip. You know, her mother was the only person who really

loved her to that point. She would say years later, my mother and I were very close. We used to share drugs like lipstick. Wow. That's a lot of drugs. Really is. What do you mean? It's a lot. They shared it like lipstick? Like they, she like, like my wife would share lipstick with one of my daughters. She's probably doing that a few times a day. So they're probably doing drugs a few times a day. Oh, I see what you're saying. I don't know how many times you're supposed to apply lipstick. You seem to know an awful lot about it, but...

How often do you apply that... Apply that eyeliner you wear? Hey, that's totally different. And that's for a different reason. Anyway, why did you get your brows done? You know that's for my one-man off-broadway show, review show. Definitely off-Broadway. It's actually off-off-off-Broadway.

It's down a dark alley around the corner, a vacant building. I didn't say how far off Broadway. And you know, those really terrible metal chairs people have in garages, that's the chairs that you use, but they're broken. People can, like, they kind of can sit on them, but they've got a balance amount. What is it with you in chairs? You get all wrapped up about chairs.

I don't know. It's frustrating. So as Carla got into her 20s, very heavy into drugs, and she was into bikers. That was her two things. She liked bikers and she liked drugs. And she met a couple named Jerry and Sean Dean. And it was through them that she was introduced in 1981 to a man named Daniel Garrett. And they started dating.

Garrett was fine with Carla's occupation as a sex worker. And he also shared her love of drugs. In fact, he was known as a guy who could provide what you wanted. I don't know if he was a full-blown. dealer or anything like that, but he definitely did supply. So we fast forward a few years. Carlos 23, Danny's 37. And they're living together in a small brick house in Houston. And they've been on, I guess what you'd call Gibbs a three-day bender, hardcore. And it started with the birthday of Carla's older sister Carrie. And this three-day party, culminate. Colmarie.

in the early morning hours of June 13th, 1983, when things turned deadly. Carla was on so many drugs over that three-day period and especially the night before and into the early morning hours of the 13th that it really boggles the mind. She was reported to have been on marijuana, placidilis, dilaudid, mandrex. Wow. I don't even know what some of these are. Delotid's a... Delotted's serious, but I've never even heard of some of these.

Valium, methadone, heroin, rum, tequila, cocaine, and bathtub speed. Seems like a lot. It does. I mean, Placadilla sounds like some kind of old dinosaur that died out millions of years ago. Mandrax, I've never heard of. I don't even know what that is. This actually sounds like something you shouldn't take. It sounds like something you go to the doctor.

to get rid of. Yeah. Doc, I got mandrecks. I got mandrix. How did we get rid of it? It was only that one time, Doc, I swear.

But apparently, Carla was still able to walk. She was still able to talk, but she was high. There's no doubt. I mean, that's enough drugs to, from my limited knowledge, seems like,

depending on how much she took, it would kill a lot of people. What's the one drug you have a very low tolerance with? Morphine. Messes you up? Yeah. But I don't have a ton of experience with drugs.

Yeah. But when I've had kidney stones, you go in, you get morphine, man, you are just out. You feel good? Heck yeah. Yeah. I always tell people, if I had a button that I could just push walking around, I probably wouldn't be able to leave the house. You're pushing that button on being on? Oh, I love it.

Yeah. It's great. So everything kind of centers around this party. There's a lot of people there. They're all drinking. They're all doing drugs. There's a lot of sex. Apparently there was a lot of nakedness.

There was some streaking going on to KFC. Are we talking about you again? No, this is actually at the part. I don't know if that happened, but. Because I know you streak, Frank the Tank, and I know that you like KFC, man. I do. Carlos friend Sean Dean that we talked about had recently split from her husband, Jerry. He was abusive to her.

And there was a lot of talk at the party that night around the break. up and you had this explosive combination of drugs and smack talk, I guess, and it started to get Carla Faye Tucker fired up. And apparently she started talking to others at the party, bad-mouthing Jerry Dean. And she had reportedly made a comment a few weeks earlier about killing this guy. That she never really did like Jerry. And those feelings intensified when she came to home to find Dean's Harley parked in her living room leaking oil all over the place. Now, I like my Harley. A lot of people do.

I don't get parking it in somebody's living room. It's not the cleanest thing in the world. No. And back in the 80s, they didn't have a great track record back then. They used to leak oil like a sieve. So they get into a shouting match. She throws him out of her house. Again, I just don't get, I mean, it wasn't even his house.

Why in the hell would he have his Harley in somebody else's living room? That part I just can't understand. But it's early morning, June 13th, 1983. Sometime between 2 o'clock, 4 o'clock a.m., Carla Tucker, Danny Garrett, and another friend named James LeBrandt, they leave the house. And they head towards Jerry Dean's apart. there was talk about, you know, going over there, roughing him up. Maybe he owed them some money.

But they specifically discussed stealing his motorcycle. This is something they knew would infuriate him. Apparently, this guy loved his motorcycle enough to keep it in the living room. And Carla got the keys to the apartment from Dean's wife, Sean. Secretly, though, she stole them and convinced Sean that they were lost. So when they get to the apartment complex, James Lee Brandt set off to find Dean's Al Camino, Carla and Daniel enter his residence, and they find his bike in the living room. In the living room.

Again, this time it's disassembled. He's working on it in his living room. I don't know if you're getting my exasperation here, Gibbs. I can't even imagine. at one point Dean wakes up he hears them and he yells out to find out who's in his place Daniel Garrett grabbed a hammer that was lying around because obviously if you're working on a bike in your living room you're going to have a lot of tools it's like a garage in there yeah so there's a hammer he grabs it he goes into the the bedroom and as Jerry Dean is trying to

you know rise up out of bed to confront him he Garrett swings the hammer into the back of Dean's head. He really does. Over and over. I mean, that's terrible, man. Is it terrible? Terrible. You sound like Charles Barkley.

That's terrible, man. Terrible, man. He does. I mean, this is a vicious attack. You know, so severe that Dean's head became unhinged from his neck. Oh, my gosh. Like, I'm picturing it like a little flopping. Yeah.

It's not severed, but it's not completely intact. It's not good. It's not good. No. Blood was streaming from his nose and gurgling sounds are coming from his body. Wow. As fluid started to build up in his lungs and in his airway. So Garrett has dished out these massive blows.

And he leaves the room. And he starts loading Dean's motorcycle. parts of it into his Ford Ranchero. The old Ford Ranchero. The old Ford Ranchero. Yeah. It's like the El Camino. I don't even know what it was. It wasn't a truck. It wasn't a car per se. It was almost like the first sport utility. It was like a station wagon with the back cut out. Yeah. Like an El Camino. Similar. It was just the Ford's answer to El Camino. It was not attractive. I didn't like it. I wasn't around in those days, but I've seen pictures.

I've seen old ones. Yeah, I think El Camino was more my. Yeah, I thought I wasn't a big fan of the El Camino. But between the two, I would definitely take the El Camino. Yeah, I would too. But Carla is left in the room with Dean. He's still alive and she's watching him. She's listening to these gurgling noises.

She looked around and she found a three foot pickaxe. Then proceeded to hit him. with it over and over to try to get the noises to stop. A three pound? Three foot. A three foot pickaxe. Yeah. Okay.

I'm picturing something similar to what like convicts used to break rocks back in the old days or. So she's kind of strong. It means, you know, clearly. Well, and it's one of the reasons why I wanted to talk about her ex-husband. You know, and that comment that he had to a reporter, he, she hit him as hard as any man ever hit him. She had some strength to her. So Carla takes the pickaxe to Dean over and over.

And then she notices a woman hiding under the bed. This woman would turn out to be Deborah Thornton. And Thornton had met Dean earlier that night at a party, hadn't known this guy at all. She had some kind of fight with her husband, went to a party, met Jerry Dean. the two hit it off and they went back to his place. The problem is she saw them. She saw both Carla and Daniel and they knew right away. She could never leave there alive.

Carla Tucker began hitting her with the pickax. But this is the part, Gibbs. And it stands out to a lot of people. She would later say that she had multiple orgasms. as she swung the pickax into this woman, Deborah Thornton. I just wonder how that happens. I wonder. What do you?

Like the physiology? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. You know, the science behind it. I don't know. There is, some people, you know, say there's a link between, there can be, a link between sex and violence. Oh, I think, I mean, there's definitely, but I mean, that's extreme violence. Oh, this is horrific.

I mean, I get that people like, you know, like it a little. rough, you know. A little spank here, a little spank there. Yeah, I get you. I don't need to actually hear it coming out of your mouth, but I get what you're saying. Give me a little choky choke, whatever. You don't, you don't have to bear your, all your likes and dislikes to the whole world, but yeah, we get it. Yeah, but you're right. I don't know how that happens. To me, a normal person would not have an orgasm by plunging a pickax into somebody's chest. No. That doesn't happen.

Probably more vomit. Yeah. But there was something about Carla and her makeup. Part of it was the drugs. I'm sure she was, you know, full of all those different drugs that we named. Yeah.

But part of it was, I believe was her childhood. You know, she had some very bad experiences during childhood with sex. Now, Garrett later came back in the room. He took the pickax and he buried it into Deborah Thornton's heart. Wow.

So you picture this attack in your head. It's gruesome. I mean, a hammer. And then you talk about a pickax. Hammer time. Too soon? Too soon. Okay.

It's, it's a rough. thing to picture in your head how these events went down i just i can imagine that pickax that's a lot of force it would be you know coming you know raining down blows the pair left the apartment both dean and thornton were dead and they left the pickax embedded in debor's chest and they just left now the morning after the incident. Carla showed up at the home of Garrett's brother. His name is Doug. Brown 6.30 in the morning. And she showed up in Jerry Dean's blue El Camino. So they unloaded a motorcycle frame from the back of the El Camino. And as they were doing that, she just comes out and says

to Daniel's brother, Doug, we offed Jerry Dean last night. And it was almost like she was bragging about it. She told him that Garrett hit him with a hammer, but she had picked him. I believe that's the word she used, picked him as in used a pickax on him. And she also told him how, you know, she orgasmed as she was delivering, you know, each of these blows. They burned Dean's wallet in an ashtray. Doug wasn't real happy about them being at his house with, a stolen motorcycle after learning that they had killed two individuals. So he told them to take the motorcycle parts. I think Doug kind of set in motion this case being solved. At one point, he reached out to detectives. And at a later point, he assisted the police in obtaining a taped

conversation of Carla and Daniel discussing the murders. Police come by last night. It got nothing. It's what the lawyer told us, it's like a fish and ocean. When you get the hook. They tell you them pictures. One thing I want to know when you went over there and killed them people. Get you to go there to do that.

It was a freak. It was a freak. Me, telling me, kind of whatever stroke was that. Did you? Did you? Oh, hell yeah. Sounds drugged up, man. Oh, I think she was constantly on drugs.

I think she lived her life in that state. Yeah, you can tell that was her at the very end. Oh, hell yeah. Yeah. That did not sound like a completely sober individual. Mm-mm. Now, the bodies were discovered by a coworker of Jerry Deans, who Dean was supposed to drive to work.

And when he didn't show up, this guy Greg Traver found Dean's body, along with the body of Deborah Thornton, who still had the pickax. Right in the heart, man. Buried in her heart. Yeah, how rough would that be to see that, man? You imagine you're just thinking you're going to walk in

and like, hey, buddy, you overslept. Right. Come on, let's go, wait a minute, man. What's this? No, you're sure as hell not thinking you're going to walk in to find two people murdered and, you know, this three-foot pickax sticking out of somebody's heart. The other thing that this guy noticed, probably not the most important thing, but he did

notice that Dean's motorcycle was missing as well. Now, on the evening of June 13th, Tucker and Garrett were watching television. When the news came on, they had a story about the murders. And apparently the two of them laughed and they did. giggled and they talked about how they were famous. They weren't sitting around feeling bad about killing these people. Allegedly they called in this James LeBrand guy into the house so that he could see the news as well. The examination of the two bodies revealed that Jerry Dean had been struck in the head

and had suffered many stab wounds. In fact, there were a total of 28 stab wounds, 20 of which would have been faced. on their own. 20. On top of that, he had a skull fracture, which would have been fatal as well. Again, I can't emphasize enough how brutal these attacks were. Deborah also had multiple stab wounds to the chest and she had stab wounds and blunt trauma to the back, a lot of which would probably have been fatal as well on their own. This was overkill. I mean, this was. I mean, this was. was, I don't know what other word to use. You don't have to hit somebody 25, 30 times with a pickax. No, it's just so much rage, man. I mean, just a ton of rage to be able to do that just to keep

swinging the axe, to keep taking that knife, whatever you're doing, however you're killing, to keep doing it again and again and again, knowing that individual's already dead. Even if she's having an orgasm while she's doing it, I don't think the orgasms last in 40 times as she's or throws a pickax. I don't think. I don't know. It was said to have been, by her own account, a lot of orgasms. So I get you.

I get the rage. But I'm not sure this was all rage. I think a lot of it was the drugs. And a lot of it was, I don't know, Gibbs. On her part especially, I think she was, she was happy while she was doing this. I really do. So it didn't take police very long to figure out who had killed. Dean and Thornton. We talked about it. Tucker and Garrett were not very secretive about it.

They were actually bragging about what they had done to friends. The investigation led directly to them. And we talked about Daniel's brother Doug and his involvement. And they were arrested on July 20th. They were indicted in September on murder charges. And they were set to be tried separately. So Carla went to trial in 1984. And she took the stand. She testified that she was on drugs when she drove the pickax more than a dozen times into Jerry Dean. So she wasn't saying I didn't do it. James Lee Brandt, we mentioned him.

He went along with Carla and Danny. He was only charged with burglary. But he testified in Carla's trial that he was called. into the apartment by Garrett. He heard a gurgling noise in the bedroom and he walked back there and witnessed Carla Faye Tucker, pull the pickax out of a body, smile, and then plunge it back in. Now, he left the scene and he walked for about an hour until he called somebody to pick him up. And Garrett and Tucker, they were, they were mad at him for leaving them. But he did try to make it up to them later by helping Garrett dispose of Jerry Dean's El Camino.

And this is something we don't hear very often, Gibbs. This guy was not offered any deals for his testimony. That's something we normally see in a lot of cases. He just agreed to testify to what he knew. That's it. The only thing they said is that the judge that heard his case, which keep in mind, it's only burglary. he wasn't charged with, you know, murder or anything like that, that judge would be made aware of his

cooperation. But there was no deal that he would totally get off the charge or anything like that. Now, the prosecutor in Carla's case was a man by the name of Joe Maglioli. And he told jurors that Carla Faye Tucker was a lawless, violent type of person. Only a violent person could have committed this type of crime. And in his final statement to the jury, Magliolo asked the jury, does she deserve the death penalty? And right after he asked the question, he played audio of Carla, pretty much like you heard earlier saying, oh, hell yes, which is kind of clever if you think about it, he's using Carla's own words to answer his question of whether she deserves the death penalty. It's kind of theatrical, but you would think Gibbs that it would have had a tremendous effect on a jury.

Now, what's interesting is that Carla Tucker had no prior convictions. You know, at the age of 23, knowing the lifestyle that she led, that's kind of shocking, a little bit. But the state did present evidence about some of her prior violent acts. One of these was a previous altercation that she had. with Jerry Dean where she punched him in the face. He was wearing glasses and he had to go to the hospital to have glass removed from his eye. Wow.

Tucker also admitted on the stand to her history of drug use and prostitution. And the jury made their decision on April 25th at 4.45 p.m. The only deliberated gives for about two hours, 50 minutes, a little bit less than three hours. they found Carla Faye Tucker guilty of murdering Jerry Lindyne, and she was sentenced to death by lethal injection. Now, she wasn't convicted of the murder of Deborah Thornton. But we'll talk about that in a minute. Her attorney told reporters afterwards that she was not surprised by the sentence.

And I don't know how she could be. You know, the prosecutor came out and said after the case, he didn't see how the jury could have done anything else. I mean, she got on the stand and told the truth that she did it. But the prosecutor did add that he was worried in this case. He was worried that the jury would give her mercy instead of justice because she was a woman. That's what he was worried about. Well, that's a jury.

And this is going to be the whole topic of, you know, the latter part of this case. Yeah. her being a female, her getting the death sentence, and people not liking that and her transformation, which we're going to talk about. So at the time, she was the only woman on death row in Texas, the only one. Yeah. And there were about 180 men sitting on death row. Definitely in something new, something that wasn't the norm. So people had a hard time handling it. No, I agree with you. I think just, in general, right, we know that men are much more likely to commit these types of violent crimes

than women are. So the proportion is way out of whack just to start with. Right. But then when women do commit some of these heinous acts, I'm not sure that they proportionally get the death sentence the same as men. But again, all stuff that people are going to bring up in the case of Carla Tucker, but Carla wasn't done testifying because Daniel Garrett's trial happened later that same year and prosecutors came out. They told the story that they went to Dean's apartment to steal his motorcycle. Carla testified as a witness for the prosecution stated that Garrett struck Dean with a hammer, left the room. That's when she got the pickax. She hit Dean to stop him from making the the gurgling noises.

She did testify that she struck Deborah, but she said it was Garrett who came back into the room, took the pickax from her, and killed Deborah Thornton. So she admitted to what she did. Right. So she tried to come, try to come clean. Yeah. But she did say that it was Daniel. Right.

That struck the final killing blow. I guess that you would say to Deborah. Yeah. Now she was charged in both murders. She testified on the stand that she heard Deborah Thornton say, oh God, it hurts. If you're going to kill me, please hurry up.

That's hard to think about. That's really tough, man. If you're a family member of Deborah Thornton and you're sitting in that courtroom to hear that your loved one was begging. for her life to end. If that's the way it was going to go, do it quickly. Yeah, I couldn't imagine hearing that, sitting there listening. But Carla also said on the stand that she still loved Daniel and didn't want to see him convicted. Of course. Even though she said that he plunged the pickax into Deborah's chest. Garrett's defense attorney painted his client as a victim in the whole thing,

essentially tried to blame the murders on Carla. In his final statements to the jury, he said that Garrett was innocent of the murders and that they both happened as a result of a deceitful Carla Tucker. But it didn't work. Garrett was found guilty on November 20th, 1984. The jury deliberated for about four hours. So it took him about an hour longer to figure his out. And it was spread out.

they spread it out over two days. Maybe so they could get two separate lunches, I don't know. Free lunch? Free lunch. But he was also sentenced to die. But Garrett would die of natural causes while in prison in 1993. But I mentioned that Carla was not convicted of the murder of Deborah. And the reason for that, she was charged, but she was not convicted because the prosecution

dropped the charges. So they both go off to prison. and we know Garrett dies, you know, years later in 1993, but within just a few years. So around 1986 time frame, Carla was saying that she was a changed woman. An article started to come out in papers about her in prison that she was now free from the drugs and she had converted to Christianity. She had found God. She earned her GED.

Okay. She was taking college courses. One article quoted her saying, I've changed definitely. I care about things and people the way I act. I care about what people think of me where before I didn't care, except I wanted them to think I was big and bad and mean and didn't care. Being isolated from the world, we'll do that, man. It'll change you real quick. Change you.

Yeah. Plus all that free education. My whole outlook on life has changed. I mean, there's transformation means going from what you once were, you know, something completely different. I mean, I'm glad people find that good change in them. But, you know. The question for me, Gibbs, is always, is it real? Is it real?

And how they still need to deal with a carnage left behind, you know? Right. I mean, it's great. You change now? But what about all the families you impacted? And you still did what you did. Yeah, you did what you did. And, you know, guess what?

That dad that you killed that had a kid, they didn't get free education through the prison system, through the state, right? Maybe they couldn't even go to school now because their daddy's not around to pay for it. So I don't know. I mean, I have some issues with that kind of stuff. But, I mean, I get it. I mean, we want reform. I mean, everybody comes to, comes to her and like, oh, she's changed so much. much. But what about the victims? Oh, I definitely agree with you. And it's, we're going to talk about it more as we get

into this, what she calls her transformation. Because like I said, it happens just with, you know, pretty quickly after she sent off to prison. But both the man that arrested her and the man that prosecuted her, even told reporters that she had changed. So Rusty Harden was the prosecutor, was quoted as saying, I've gotten to know her enough that I see. see a person that has changed. I like her and I hope she doesn't die. This is the prosecutor that asked for the death penalty. Two years later saying, I hope she doesn't die.

And the detective that arrested her, J.C. Mosier was quoted as saying, I believe in the death penalty, but I feel more empathy for Carla than others that I've sent to death row. Most of them are bad people, period. But Carla never had a chance from the start. There was no way for her to go but bad. Now, Carla spent nearly 14 years on death row at the Mountain View unit of Gatesville penitentiary. And she went through all the normal appeals, all of which were rejected.

And over these years, many people came out in support of Carla. obviously not for what she had done, but for the fact that they didn't think she should be put to death. There was a lot of religious people, famous religious people. Pat Robertson came out, you know, groups like Amnesty International. Even the Pope came out and said that she should be spared. You know, all of these people wanted to have her death sentence commuted to life in prison. And it wasn't just famous people. I mean, there was a public campaign that happened to try to spare the life of Carla Faye Tucker. And she did a ton of interviews that were broadcast on national television.

So a lot of attention was brought to her plea for mercy. She was on Larry King, 60 minutes. She was everywhere. What you're going to do is you're going to cut down on the recidivism rate. If you want to talk about crime, cutting down on crime, you'll cut down on crime. you'll cut down on the recidivism rate, you will make your society a safer place because if God is literally living in somebody and their life is governed by his law, by his love and his morals, when they walk out of here, they're not going to be a threat to our society.

They're going to be a very valuable contributing member to our society. So just an example of the things that, you know, she was saying on media outlets that were going going out, you know, all over the place. But you had a lot of people saying Gibbs that, you know, her gender was what made this case prominent. It's what made people take notice. It made her more human to the public. Because there are a lot of men on death row.

There's a lot of men that have found religion or say that they've turned their life around. They're not all on Larry King or being profiled on 60 minutes. I think that's what people were saying. Right. I agree. And there were people that came out to say that, you know, if you're seeing this person on TV, you're putting a face to this person. It gives you a reason to think twice about whether they should be executed.

There was a woman named Janice Sager, founder of Texans for Equal Justice. It's a Houston-based victim support group. She came out and said, if Tucker were a man, she would never get such sympathy. For years, women's groups have been screaming equal rights. So if you do the crime, you deserve equal punishment. I think that's why this case was such a lightning rod issue. It was very dividing.

You had a large group of people that thought it was wrong to put this woman to death, especially after what appeared to be, what everybody said was the fact that she had turned her life around. And then you had a whole other group saying, I don't care what she did. She took someone's life, played a role in taking two people's lives, and she deserves to pay the ultimate price. Carla's final media interview in prison happened about a week before her execution. And it was aired on the Christian Broadcasting Networks, the 700 Club. You remember that? I do remember that. Is that still a thing? I don't know. It's still after. I know my grandparents, I think, used to watch it back in the day.

But on this broadcast, Carla said, I'm going to be thinking about certainly what it's like in heaven. I'm going to be thinking about my family and my friends and the pain. I'm going to be thankful for all the love. On Monday, February 2nd, 1998, she was flown 175 miles to Huntsville and taken to the walls unit to be placed in a holding cell, which was next to the execution chamber. Then on her final day, on her execution day, she didn't eat breakfast. But guards said that she seemed to be very at peace. She wrote a letter.

She had a couple of visits. Now, one of the things we haven't mentioned yet was she got married while she was in prison. Of course. They seem to always do. They do. But she married the prison minister. a guy by the name of Dana Brown. She was allowed 30 minutes with him.

Not in that way, but she was allowed to spend 30 minutes with him. Yeah, conversation way. Yeah. As far as I know, from what I read, they never consummated the marriage. Yeah. This was more of a... For show? No, I think...

Just that spiritual. Yeah, I think it was more of a spiritual friendship. I think they loved each other. But it wasn't, it wasn't sexual. It wasn't in that way. there was no conjugal visits. She was also allowed a half hour with a spiritual advisor. And we talk about last meals a lot.

Carla Tucker's last meal was a banana, a peach, and a garden salad with ranch dressing. I'm not saying I don't like those things, Gibbs. I just don't know if it'd be my last meal. That's not going to be my last meal. I can tell you that right now. I mean, I'll eat that if there's nothing else to eat. But if I have a big old T-bone or something like that with a fully loaded baked potato, maybe some of those little shoestring onion straws.

Ooh. Ooh, yeah. Sounds like the pine club to me. Oh, yeah, it does sound like the pine club. Actually, that would be my last meal. Now, her attorney was still fighting every day all the way up until the last day to get her sentence commuted to life. The Supreme Court rejected two last minutes.

it calls for clemency and the Texas governor who at the time was George W. ordered the execution to go ahead. He declined to commute her sentence, but that wasn't out of the ordinary because he hadn't commuted anybody's sentence the entire time that he was the governor of Texas. I forget the number of people that were put to death while he was governor. He didn't grant a single person clemency. He had to be tough. He said her case had been thoroughly reviewed. I have concluded judgments about the heart and soul of an individual on death row are best left to a higher authority. Carla Faye Tucker has acknowledged she is guilty of a horrible crime. The courts, including the United States Supreme Court, have reviewed the legal issues

in this case, and therefore I will not grant a 30-day stay. May God bless Carla Faye Tucker and God bless her victims and their families. So she's in the execution chamber. and there are people there that are going to witness her being executed. Deborah Thornton's husband, Richard, and his two stepkids were there. He supported the death penalty. But Deborah's brother, Ronald Carlson, was also there. And he opposed it. He did not want Carla Faye Tucker to die.

He apparently had visited her on death row and was won over. by her conversion and her transformation and her turning her life around. So where at one time he probably supported it, at the end he did. And Carla's last words were, yes, sir, I would like to say to all of you, the Thornton family and Jerry Dean's family that I am so sorry. I hope God will give you peace with this. Baby, I love you. She was talking to her husband.

And then talking to Ronald Carlson, she said, Ron, give Peggy a hug for me. Everybody has been so good to me. I love all of you very much. I am going to be face to face with Jesus now. Warden, Baggett, thank all of you so much. You have been so good to me. I love all of you very much. I will see you all when you get there.

I will wait for you. So Gibbs, as far as last words go, those were pretty good ones. We've talked about a lot of, you know, you know, Gacy said kiss my ass. We've had, you know, people just go double bird. They kind of run the gamut. I mean, she seems sincere. Yeah, I was going to talk about it at the end, but I think now's as good a time as any. I think she was sincere.

I think at the end of her life, and even much earlier in the last 10, 12 years of her life, she was a different person. She was a good person. She did a lot of good in prison, which I think is, great. But kind of like you said, Gibbs, it doesn't erase the fact that she committed horrible crimes. Now, if you're opposed to the death penalty, you don't really want anybody to be put to death. So if you're looking at somebody like Carla Faye Tucker, you definitely don't want her to be put to death. Right. But on the other side of the aisle, there are people saying that it's great

what she did, but it doesn't change the fact of, you know, the crimes that she committed and she should still have to pay for those crimes. So back up. We back up to she's still in the execution chamber. They administer the lethal chemicals. Witnesses said she coughed twice shortly after the injection. She groaned and then she stopped breathing. But her eyes never closed. They remained open throughout this whole period. It was about eight minutes after receiving the injection. She was pronounced dead at 6.45 p.m. It just seems like it would be strange to see somebody die that way with their eyes still open.

It would be. I mean, it wouldn't be easy to see anyone die. But I would think if their eyes were closed, I could think of it more as a general going to sleep. Right. But with the eyes open. That seems like it would be very jarring. So shortly after they pronounced her dead, prison officials came out to make the announcement.

And when they did, many people in the crowd cheered. And they began singing. That song gives it goes, nah, nah, nah, hey, hey, hey, goodbye. Really? Yeah. So there was obviously a contingent of people that were happy that she was dead. And we talk about this in a lot of death penalty cases, right? At the actual execution, there's usually a lot of people outside. Some of them are pro death penalty and some of those are

anti. Those in the crowd that were opposed to the death penalty, they cried. But there were some in the crowd that told reporters that they felt joy, joy that Carla was moving on to a better place. At the time, she was the first woman executed in the state of Texas in 135 years. So that went back to like the late 1800s. Back in the Wow, Wow West. Yeah. There was a woman that was executed for being a horse thief, I think, if I remember reading it correctly. But you think about the state of Texas.

They execute quite a number of people. So for her to be the first woman in 135 years, and she was only the second woman in all of the United States executed since the death penalty was reinstated in 1976. So going back to what we talked about earlier, I think those stats help show just how rare it is for a woman to be executed. It happens. But in proportion, there are a lot more men executed because there are a lot more men committing heinous, violent crimes. It's just statistically, that's how it goes. But I also think that there are some men that turn their lives around, you know, become good people in prison that don't get the notoriety or

the celebrities or the people coming out in support of them that Carla did. I agree. And I think that you can only make the argument that that had to do with the fact that she was a woman and that she had become religious because that was a big part of this. You know, a lot of the people that came out in her support were religious people. Carla Faye Tucker is buried at Forest Park Laundale Cemetery in Houston. Now, they did make a movie about her in 2004 and it's called Forevermore. I haven't seen it. But IMDB says that based on a true story that rocked the world, an emotional journey

that takes a former drug-crazed prostitute and convicted pickax killer from the depths of despair to personal triumph on Texas death row. That's what it says. Who played her? Somebody, a woman I've never heard of. This was not a big movie. Oh, this is like one of those after-school special? No, I think it was probably independently made.

I think it had a, it was very heavy on the religious aspect of her story. I gotcha. It's what it seemed like to me. Like I said, I haven't seen it. How many stars did it get? I didn't look. That would have been a good thing to look at. A lot of the stuff that I thought we'd talk about at the end, Gibbs, we kind of moved up a little bit.

Yeah. I just, I don't know. I remember seeing this one probably on American Justice. That's where I saw everything back in the day. Back in the day. And I do remember, you know, seeing this story. And it's sticking with me because, you know, she didn't look like. Like, if you look at Carla Tucker when she's arrested and you look at her eight,

10 years later, it's like night and day. And the same with, you know, if you hear her talk, right, she's much, much different. Yeah. Yeah. You know, usually when she would do these interviews, she would have makeup on and have her hair, you know, all done up or pulled back. Yeah. So I think a lot of people looked at her and said, wow, I can't.

leave they're putting this woman to death. You would wrote her if you're, wouldn't you? You would wrote her. Did you say wrote with a T? You would have wrote her? Okay, wrote her. Yeah. Is that like written? Yeah, you would have wrote her a letter. You would have written her a letter. I might have written her a letter. Yeah, or wrote. Yeah. Depends on what part of the country you're from. I don't know if I would have written her or not. But I think that was it. I think that was the, you know, the crux of the story was these two polar opposites. Yeah. Of who she was. as a 20-something-year-old, whacked out on drugs, didn't care about anyone or anything. Well, I mean, no doubt about it.

Drugs can make you do some crazy shit. And if you have any religious beliefs, then you can say that people can be saved. People can be changed. People can be anew. Yeah, I think that's why you had a lot of religious people coming out on her behalf. Sure. And to your point with the drugs, we did list off about 15 things that would kill a grown elephant. I mean, that was some powerful shit.

And the combination. Yeah. I don't even know what bathtub speed is, but I'm sure... Can't be good. It can't be good. Especially mixed with all that other stuff? Mixed with Delotted, Mandrex, Bardol, Vagicil. I mean, I don't...

Did you say Vagicil? Yeah, I don't even know what all was in there. You have that and other stuff in your system? I mean, you're just, your brain can't think right. And it's going to do some crazy-ass stuff if you continue to do. So, I mean, the end of the story in this one is don't do, don't do drugs. Definitely don't do compound drugs. No, definitely.

She made some bad choices. I also think, boy, she got steered down a bad path, you know, through some horrible parenting. Yeah. I mean, how many times have you ever heard me say that a mother helped their child roll joint and then helped guide them into the the sex trade world never no yeah all right gibbs we've got some voicemails you want to hear those yeah let's listen to them all right let's check them out hi mike hi gibby my name's mary i'm from wisconsin going for a walk on my break from work where i've just been catching up on true crime all the time unsolved i binged the teacatch and now i'm on the

unsolved i just finished the amadale horrible episode and I have to say Gibby that I laughed out loud causing my coworkers to look at me very quickly when you made the reference to the 867309 should I ask for Jenny when I need you to be my financial advisor. Thanks guys for a great podcast. I can't get through my workday without listening for that while I'm doing financial account. So yeah, I could be your financial so nice of it, that's not my number. So I think guys for taking me through some really boring work days otherwise. I'm sure my co-workers think I'm crazy with some of the facial expressions that I make. I know my husband and five kids wonder why I listen to this stuff, but it's just

fascinating. So thanks for bringing it all to me up here in Snowy Freeview, Wisconsin. Okay, thank you. Bye. Wisconsin. Wisconsin. So I love that voicemail. Yeah. I wonder if she's walking around with the, you know, they all wear those cheese head things. I doubt she's wearing a cheesehead on her lunch break.

I think they all wear them. I think that's just what you do. Well, I think if you're a Green Bay Packers fan, yeah, that's what you do. I don't, I think it's more relegated to specifically. They love their cheese there, man. They do love their cheese. Yeah, you're right about that. Yeah.

Good cheese. But we hear that a lot, right? Finished up T-Cat, moved on. to Unsolved. Yeah. I will say this, that Amityville horror episode that we did, one on TCAT and one on Unsolved, it was, it was one of my favorites. Yeah.

Just because of the crossover. Right. Especially on Unsolved, we had a lot of fun with it. Yeah, we did. Because we weren't talking about the murders. We were talking about the haunting and the movies and, you know, kind of all that stuff. And my great research skills. Yeah, and your great research skills.

Yeah. This is Vanessa from Lancaster, Ohio. I just wanted to call and call it. You think for making such a great podcast. You guys, on my long commute and do Columbus for work. And during the day, I enjoy that being a lightness to be tested.

I also enjoy all of missteps that get me made with words and movies because I can totally relate. I hope you guys have a good day and stay safe and keep your own tight and tick. All right. Another fellow Ohioan. Yeah, Lancaster, man. That's, we used to go past that on our way to Athens. Yeah.

So it's funny because she, if you heard her pronounce it, it was Lancaster. Yeah. More. I said it, I usually say it the way you say it. Lancaster. Yeah. But it just goes to show you, like we can't even, we're not even 100% sure how to pronounce towns that we've gone through.

We're not that far from. I know. But it's, and I've been through it a bunch because I actually went to Ohio. University. Yeah, I just went up there for some parties, you know. But I just remember it going through Lancaster. Yeah, exactly. Mike Ferguson and Mike Gibson, what is up? I've been meaning to call your voicemone for ages now, and I decided I better do it now. I'm thinking about it because I will forget. This is Aaron, calling from Darlington, South Carolina, and I am re-listening the podcast

about serial killers torturing animals in their earlier day. While I am legitimately, and I'm not even kidding, about to splint, my chicken's broken leg. I'm here in South Carolina because I am not a psychotic asshole. Anyway, look, y'all, you are completely unaware of this, but we are, in fact, best friends. I spend more time with y'all than my husband, who, by the way, is fully convinced that I'm going to kill him. But y'all rock my socks. I'm completely snitting with teacats, and I will never understand how anyone could pick either Team Mike or Team Givvy. Who does that?

All right, I'm off to fix my Broken Chicken, but stay safe and keep your own time picking. So, first of all, that rhymed. It did rhyme. I'm off to fix my broken chicken. I don't think she's on coffee. Stay safe and keep your own time ticket. I think that's just her. She's very energetic.

She is very energetic. Yeah. She is splinting the leg of her chicken. What do you use? Like popsicle sticks? Because I'd be good at me like, hey, I'll be the popsicle eater so you can have the stick to do what you need to do. To eat one popsicle? Or do you think it would take more sticks?

Probably more sticks than that. I don't know. That's pretty cool. She's smitten with T-Cat. We love to hear that. And also, she's not the only one that we've heard from that whose husband is sometimes worried. Yeah. That people are getting a little bit too much information to possibly use.

My wife is worried about it. She ought to be. She should be. No, she shouldn't be. But she is worried. She doesn't have the same type of true crime fascination that I do. No. She doesn't understand it.

And I think a lot of people are in that boat. There are some husband and wives who have it together. Oh, man, we meet them at CrimeCon. And we've met a bunch of them at CrimeCon. They have such a great time. But I think Gibbs, the majority of couples, you have one person who is into true crime. Sure. And the other is not.

And that person that is not does not understand it. Because I'll equate it to my wife's Hallmark movies. You know, she's into these Hallmark Christmas movies. Yeah. I can't watch them. But you let her watch them. They're not as bad as. hope floats.

She lets you do, not my head, but you're closed. You let, she lets you do your true crime. She lets you, you let her do that. You guys find a happy medium, you know,

I mean, you support her. She supports you. Yeah. And that's good. That's what it's all about. Yeah. Hey, Mike and Gibby. This is Ashley from Dallas.

I just finished listening to your latest, uh, unsolved episode. And Mike, you talked about getting an email from a surviving family member of someone who completed suicide. I'd never actually heard that term before, but being someone who knows a lot of folks who have family members or friends who have, you know, passed away from suicide, and I think,

unfortunately, a lot of people, if not all people, know some connection to that. I'd never heard that, and I was wondering if maybe you could elaborate on that, or maybe even have that email or join for some kind of a bonus episode, something to explain why family members and friends of, you know, people who have completed suicide prefer that term. I think that would be really beneficial and a really great, you know, public service announcement so that we can be more respectful to the surviving family and friends of those people. So thanks so much. I really enjoy your podcast and keep your own time ticking.

Yeah, so I've talked about this a couple of times on, I don't know which on which one, T-Cat, Unsolved, maybe a little bit on both. Right. I will try to explain it the best way that I know how from what I gathered, you know, talking back and forth with, with this woman. And it's essentially that from what she was saying, you know, family members look at that word committed as having a negative connotation, which it does, right, committed. You think about that unless it's marriage, right?

You're committed to your spouse. But when you put it in this context, it's like a crime, committed a crime. Sure. And they don't like that. So that's the way it was explained to me. I don't know if I said this, but I did get a wonderful email back from her after I talked about it. Right.

Because I don't think she expected me to bring it up on the podcast. She was so over the top thankful. Yeah, well, I know she's passionate about, you know, getting that message out. Yeah, that we would even bring it up and maybe help spread it. Hey, guys, this is Sean. I'm from Lexton, Kentucky, so not too far away from RELR. I'm also a huge Wildcats fan, so Go Cat. True crime has never really been a thing that I had a ton of interest in,

but, you know, I have a lot of friends that recommended listening to True Crime podcast, as I recently took on a new traveling job where I'm just driving so much. I need to find something to listen to other than music. So I started listening to your podcast, and I must say, it's very, very intriguing. Your subjects are just very, very well planned and thought out. The research that you do is apparent that it's just excellent. And, of course, as I've listened to more and more episodes, I've guarded more and more interest in the subject,

I just applaud the light that you shine in this area and the attention you bring to it and how important it is for people to know that it is, it's very, this is a very real thing in our world. And, you know, the more that we know about things like this, the better strides and the more efforts that we can take to avoid being put in a situation where we would become a victim. But anyway, like I said, I'm going to keep on listening. I've only been listening for a few weeks, but you guys, you guys rock. I just keep your own time sticking.

Well, I like that voicemail Gibbs for a couple reasons. Okay. Number one, not very often do I hear I was not interested in true crime, but started listening to the podcast and became interesting. Yeah, which is cool. That is really cool. Yeah, I like that. But the second thing he touched on, we hear a lot, which is, you know, some of the things we talk

about. We didn't set out to do it this way, but I think it does help people to either be more aware of their surroundings, be more vigilant. Oh, I think so. In certain situations. Keep your head on a swivel. Yeah, keep your head on a swivel. I mean, that's not what the podcast started out to be. But if it, if that's a side benefit to people, I think it's great. Yeah. But that's it, Gibbs. That is it for another episode of true crime all the time. Now, before we go, I did want to say no mailbag, but we got a ton of Christmas card. We did, man. So many that I can't even read everybody's names and very appreciative of that. Oh, absolutely. Love them all. It was, it was so nice. So I did want to mention that. Thank you. So for Mike and Gabby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.