True Crime All The Time - Katherine Knight

Episode Date: December 23, 2019

Katherine Knight is one of the most infamous women in Australian history. Katherine had a toxic and turbulent childhood. She had issues with every relationship she had with the men in her life. In 2000, Katherine committed an unbelievably vicious murder of the current man in her life, John Price. Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss Katherine Knight whom many refer to as the female Hannibal Lecter. The murder that Katherine committed against John Price was heinous. But, its the acts she performed on John's body after death that shocked the world.You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise and donation information An Emash Digital ProductionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

and welcome to episode 162 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in True Crime. Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you? Hey, man, I'm doing good. I'm glad to hear it. I always like it when you're doing good. Yeah. Getting ready for the holiday season. Yeah. I think everybody is. Everybody listening. Well, by the time this comes out, yeah. It'll just be, what, three days? Yeah, exactly. Before the Christmas holiday. And then, you know, there's all the other holidays, Hanukkah, Kwanza. I mean, there's so many different things that people celebrate. Festifists for the rest of us.

Festivists. So, I mean, I think right off the bat, we want to wish everybody a happy holiday. Regardless of what you celebrate, it's a great time of year. It is. And it's a time to spend with friends and family and enjoy that. Yeah. And for that reason, you and I are taking next week off. So this is TCAT.

Right. There won't be an unsolved episode, which we'll talk again about on the unsolved episode. But there will be an episode of TCAT that comes out next Sunday. It's a Patreon episode that you and I did earlier this year. We did. And it's Richard Keklinski that we're calling Redux, really writing a wrong. And that wrong was that the second episode. ever of true crime all the time, which I did on Richard Kiklinski. You weren't in it. No, you left me out.

I did not leave you out. You left me out, man. So we thought it'd be great to go back, redo the episode. And it's not the same episode. No. It was all new research, completely different research. And much better. Much better. Because why? Because you were in it. Thank you. Plus, I think our research skills are honed infinitely better than they were when we, when we started the podcast, we have a lot of, oh, what should I say? Resources that we didn't have back then. But I think everybody will enjoy it because it's not like that first episode was horrible, but it's nowhere near as good as this.

No, no. For a number of reasons. And like I said, one of the big ones is because you're in it. So look forward to that. But most of all, just everybody have a great holiday. stay safe and spend quality time with friends and family. All right, Gives, we have some new Patreon supporters. So let's give some shoutouts.

We had Kate Manning. Hey, Kate. Amanda Nobles. What's going on, Amanda? Nancy Newby. Hey, newbie. Sarah Hall. What's going on, Sarah?

Ashley Jones. Hey, Ashley. Our friend Ted Perry. Ooh, Ted, what's up? From Mount Nasey. Yeah. Connie Gertman Watkins. Hey, Connie Gertman Watkins.

Jill Appleton. Hey, Jill. Nina Polly Hunter. What's going on? Nina. Angelica Salgado. Oh, Salgado. Cristiana Rohn. What's going on, Christiana. Ren Cheryl.

Hey, Ren. Stefan Blazzovsky. Blasjofsky. Elizabeth Bracken. Hey, Elizabeth. Virginia Williams. Thanks, Virginia. Brandon Davis.

What's going on, Brandon? Taylor Lynch jumped out at our highest level. Hey, thanks, Taylor. Paloma Alcala. Ooh, Paloma. Yvonne M. Hey, Yvonne M. And Janice Trusensky.

Hey, thanks, Trisinski. So we appreciate all that new Patreon support. We always do. And then if we go back into the vault, Gibbs, this week we selected Kelly Eaton. Hey, Kelly. Longtime T-Cat listener, long-time T-Cat supporter. We really appreciate all the long-term support that we get. We had some PayPal support as well.

Candice Zugich. Hey, Candice. Melissa Buell. Thanks, Melissa. Shaila Green. Hey, Shaila. And Roxzilla art and apparel. Ooh, Roxzilla.

Roxzilla. Rockzilla. I feel like it could be a song. So all that supports great. We appreciate it. It gives right now we have a brand new episode out on True Crime All Time Unsolved. It's a Christmas themed episode, right? There's two different unsolved cases.

Both of them happened around the holidays. And like we always do, we'll get into the what happened and the rabbit hole. and who they think possibly could have done, you know, something to these people. It'll be a good one. That's where we'll go. Now, I mentioned that we're putting the Richard Kiklinsky Redux out next week on True Crime All Time. We do have a brand new Patreon-only episode that will be out Saturday for our Patreon listeners. I say it every now on them, but it's a great time to sign up.

We have a lot of content out there. Jump over now. Give yourself a Christmas gift. A Christmas gift to yourself. That keeps giving. Or to your loved ones. It's like the jelly of the month club. It is very much like that. All right, Gibbs, are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime All the Time? I am. We are heading to Australia. We haven't been there in a while to talk about Catherine Knight, one of the most infamous women in the history of that country. some people have called her the female Hannibal Lecter. I believe that. And that's a pretty rough moniker given what Hannibal Lecter did.

But when we get into what Catherine Knight did, I think it's easy to see why people make that connection. So is a mad woman. To see her, though, Catherine Knight gives to me, looks like your next door neighbor, your everyday next door neighbor, maybe even your fifth grade teacher. She has this look about her that is it's not the oh my gosh, I have to get away from her menacing look. Oh. Nothing like that. Because my fifth grade teacher had a patch.

Mm. And, uh, yeah. On an eye? Because you didn't specify it. No, on her arm. Okay. She was trying to quit smoking. She was trying to quit smoking.

I didn't know where the patch was. Yeah. That's all. I do think to look at this woman, it's not someone that you would think is scary. which is alarming. It's always alarming. Yeah. I mean, there's no like, when you see some scary people, you're like, yeah, I'm going to stay away.

I'm going to walk on the other side of the street. Sure. I'm not going to walk towards them. Sure. But given that, she had an unbelievable dark side that culminated in murder. Some people say cannibalism. We're going to get into all that. There's no doubt.

This was a woman who had constant violence in her life. Some she witnessed, some that was perpetrated against her, and definitely a lot that she doled out to others. She was vindictive. She was treacherous. Again, these are not traits that anyone should be putting on their online dating profile. No. This was a woman that you would not want to get involved with.

And when I say you, I literally mean you. Yeah, I wouldn't. This is nobody should have been involved with this woman. And if you did get involved with her, she was definitely someone that you did not want to cross. And that's going to bear itself out as we go through this story. So let's start with some background. Catherine Mary Knight was born on October 24th, 195 in Tenterfield, New South Wales, Australia. Oh, good.

I don't know exactly what that is. You've been there. I know you have. She had a twin sister that was born just a little bit before she was. But this was a family unit. If you even want to call it that, that was dysfunctional to say the least. So right off the bat, Catherine's mother Barbara had been married to a man named Jack, with whom she had four children.

She cheated on Jack with one of his coworkers, a guy named Kenner. night. The two ran off together, started their own family, which included Catherine. And I guess in this little town where they all lived, it was a huge scandal. Like everybody knew about it. Right. They had to leave the area. When Catherine was four years old, Jack died, which meant that some of Barbara's children from her first marriage came into the picture, came, you know, to live with her, which means they lived with Ken and Catherine and her sister. It's confusing. I know.

But that is what happens when you run around cheating and, you know, running off with someone that's not your spouse and starting a new family and all that. Could happen. So we have this Brady bunch like situation. Although, to be fair, I don't think Carol was cheating on her ex with Mike, but who knows? I don't know that they ever really fully explained the backstory, did they on the Brady Bunch? Obviously, they were both married before. Yeah, you remember what time this came out. Yeah.

It could have been in the back pages of the script, never to be revealed, that Carol met Mike at some holiday party and they decided to, you know, get it on. I don't know. Just get it on. Get it on. It doesn't matter. What does matter is that this guy Ken Knight, who was Catherine's father, was pretty much a monster of a guy. So first of all, he worked at a slaughterhouse. And this is going to be very important.

He was also an alcoholic. And it was alleged that he raped Barbara on a daily basis. Barbara being his wife. I'm not even sure if they got married, to be honest with you. But I read some reports Gibbs that it was multiple times. a day. Just habitual. So that's a problem in and of itself, right? Nobody should be doing that. But add on top of that the fact that this was not some big secret. I think this was something that the kids knew all about, probably witnessed some of it. I'm not sure about the actual act, but the violence

you know they witnessed. I'm sure it didn't help in forming Catherine's thoughts and behavior in her early years. Catherine later said that she was sexually abused by some of her male siblings. And I've seen some conflicting reports that possibly there was inappropriate contact with her father, Ken, as well. It's definitely not Brady Bunch material if it occurred. Yeah, I don't remember any episodes like that. That's because there were no episodes like that.

Although, you know, years later, it came out that there were some things. going on behind the scenes in the old Brady bunch if you've seen some of those things. Yeah. I think Greg had the hots for Florence Henderson and also Marsha. There's some things going on. I remember hearing some stories about that and definitely the stories about Partridge family. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Well, anytime you spend that much time, you're on set, day in, day out with somebody. And you're talking about a bunch of kids, adolescents with hormones raging. Something's bound to happen. growing up through those years together. What I do know is that Catherine was later evaluated by some psychiatrists who had their doubts about whether she was telling the truth about some of these molestation claims. But if they are true, they definitely could help explain the distrust in men that Catherine would later display.

She was said to have been happy at times as a kid, but I got the sense, Gibbs, that she had a real Jekyll and Hyde type thing going on inside her. One minute happy, the next minute, kind of mean and vicious. And there are people like that. Yeah, absolutely. I know people like that. It makes you wonder, you know, the jackal and hide thing, right? Do you mean Jekyll? I mean, checkle. Okay. Yeah, a checkle and hide thing. You never know who you're going to get. You hope you get this person, but sometimes you get this other person. Yeah, you want the happy person, but you never know. Yeah. It was reported that she bullied and sometimes hurt smaller kids. I saw some reports where she got mean and hateful with teachers and maybe injured one. Yeah. At a certain point. I think all of this is

something that we're going to see with Catherine Knight. I do believe she got some type of sick. perverted enjoyment out of torturing others in various ways. I think that's going to prove itself out. I agree. She dropped out of school at the age of 15. And at 16, she followed in her father's footsteps, got a job at the local slaughterhouse. Not really the place you think of for a 16 year old girl or really any 16 year old for that matter.

I've been in a slaughterhouse and yeah, that's not a good place for a teenager. kind of rough work. It's a rough way to make a living. Here's the thing though. She loved it. Couldn't wait to get this job, told people it was her dream job. Really? And I think she thrived in that environment. Now, that's a job that you would think probably mostly dominated by men, probably guys that are rough and tumble, cussing like sailors. So just think about that. She's kind of as a 16-year-old living in this environment. She even got her very own set of knives. Did she?

Yeah, which is a little scary for a person like Catherine. She's going to use her knife skills to devastating effects later on. Yeah. So the slaughterhouse is going to teach her everything that she needs in the future. That's absolutely correct. Yeah. In 1974, Catherine married a truck driver named David Kellett. The pair had two children during the marriage that lasted 10 years. Knight claims that David

was violent to her, was unfaithful to her, and that as a result of all of this, she had a nervous breakdown during the marriage. But David's side of the story is much different. He said he never harmed her in any way. And in fact, it was Catherine, who was the violent one in the relationship. he made statements about certain events after she was arrested, as did all of the ex-partners in Catherine's life, because they're going to be interviewed. Right. He said on their wedding night, Gibbs, she grabbed him by the throat and began choking him because, and how do I put this?

I guess he wasn't exactly rocking her boat in the sack. Okay. To rock the boat. Don't rock the boat, baby. Rock the boat. I don't just the boat. Great song, but that is rough, man. That's not good, man.

You're not doing it as well as I would like for you to do, so I'm going to choke you. I'm going to choke you. And I want you to do better now. Talk about having performance anxiety from that point forward. Like, if I'm not good enough, I'm going to get choked. Yeah. There's already a lot of pressure. He's like, uh, I'm working late tonight, honey.

He had some other stories as well. One involved her attacking him with an iron. and there was one where he woke up to her sitting on his chest with a knife to his throat. Oh, that's always exciting. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's really what you want out of your mate. Yeah.

You want to wake up from a nice, peaceful sleep to find your spouse sitting on your chest holding a knife to your throat. Come on a morning, darling. Did that sound Australian? I don't know. Actually, I thought you were trying to do Conway 20. So I got confused. I don't know. I wonder if he said, hey, that's not a knife.

And she said, this is a knife. Yeah. I don't think that's something you wanted to say to Catherine Knight. I don't think so either. You know, working in a slaughterhouse over the years, and you already kind of foreshadowed it, she became pretty much an expert with a knife. Yeah. David also said that she once fractured his skull by hitting him on the back of the head

with a skillet. Oh. I mean, that's like a cartoon type. Yeah. Something you would see in the old cartoons. I've seen it all the time in the cartoons. So you thought it was normal? Yeah.

Growing up, yeah. You just think that's what you did. You hit people in the head with frying pan. Exactly. I think most of these incidents centered around the fact that she thought David was being unfaithful while he was out driving his truck. He was a truck driver. And I think he was gone for stretches at a time.

It's really kind of amazing if you think about it. that the relationship lasted as long as it did. But eventually David made the decision that he had to get out. I'm not sure why it took him 10 years because if somebody has a knife to my throat, that decision is pretty easy, I think, at that point. Yeah, I'm out of there. Now, they did have two kids, though, and you always have to factor all that stuff in. I do know that later on, the courts viewed David's testimony and statements as the more

credible of the two sides. So they, you know, weighed all his statements. They weighed hers, tried to corroborate it. And they said, you know what? This guy's telling the truth. Yeah. Catherine's next attempt at love started in 1987 when she met a man named David Saunders. The pair had a daughter the next year. But again, Catherine claimed that Saunders was very violent. and she took out a number of what is called in Australia apprehended violence orders on him, essentially like domestic disturbance type of claims. It likes a lot of Davids, doesn't she? She does like the Davids.

Now, she has said that he once kicked her in the stomach while she was pregnant or when she thought she was pregnant, it was one of the two. That would be horrible. If it happened, Saunders later claimed in. written statements that it didn't. In fact, he again said it was Catherine. Yeah. Who was extremely violent. He said she once stabbed him with a pair of scissors. Another time cut up every single piece of clothing that he owned except for what he had on. Wow. That really cuts down on your wardrobe. It does. Makes makes it for a problem.

It does. Yeah. Especially if you don't have a lot of money to replace said wardrobe. And you got to wear the same boxers every day. So you have conflicting stories here again, and you have a number of domestic violence type incidents reported by Catherine to police. And there's no doubt. I think the majority of domestic violence is committed by men against women. I don't think there's anyone that could really argue with that. But in Catherine's case, so much of it comes down to the question of, you know, who really was the abuser? in these relationships. And I want to go back to the stomach kicking incident because it's Catherine's response to this alleged incident that really blew me away. And this is a harming of an animal warning here. So fast forward 15 seconds.

If you don't want to hear these details, I think they're important to the story, though, because what Catherine did was she got out one of her very sharp knives. that she always kept with her, went to the backyard, and she cut the throat of David's eight-week-old puppy while he watched. That is horrifying. Now, I don't really know what actually transpired with these domestic violence incidents in this relationship in the courts later on couldn't really make a determination as to who was the aggressor, but they did conclude two things. Catherine did stab this guy, and she did in fact

kill his puppy. Well, right there, she deserves her own little place in Schittsville. Yeah. I could see, this is going to sound weird, but I could see her stabbing somebody with scissors and self-defense. Sure. In the middle of a domestic violence situation. Right. I can never see harming a puppy. That, what is that doing to help in your self-defense? Right. I don't get that at all. It's just doing something out of spite. Yeah.

And we're going to see a lot of that. She was very vengeful. After Catherine's relationship ended with David Saunders, she met a man named John Chillingworth. This was around 1990 and the two had a son the next year. This is the other thing, Gives. And we've talked about this on a number of episodes. There's no doubt as you go through the timeline, she had no problem meeting men.

Yeah. She was married a number of times, had a, you know, a number of children with different men. She was able to attract men. Must have been that really, really good personality. Yeah, that winning personality that really sealed the deal. That or they saw her working her knife. And they're like, man. She can work a knife.

She can work a knife like that. She was said to have been a very good cook. And you know the way to a man's heart, that old phrase anyway. I do think there's a possibility that she was probably very charming in the beginning and was able to attract someone using that. She's not going to let her true color show right in the beginning. That's like 80% of all relationships. Yeah.

You know? Right. Nobody lets their true self out right from Jump Street. Like, oh, I love that too. I love that too. And then when you finally are at that point, they're like, yeah, I don't like listening to that music. You're like, well, wait a minute. You said you did.

That's true. If I met my wife today, I would say, I'd love HGTV. Yeah. I love to sit and watch Hallmark Christmas movies all day long. Hope floats is the best movie ever. I don't like any of those things. Yeah. But as with all of her relationships, Catherine said that John was very violent to her.

But again, the courts later on could not square her. statements with the facts. Gibbs, it was documented that during one argument, she smashed this guy's false teeth. And in another, snatched his glasses off his face and just crushed him up right in front of he. She's like, I'll show you, crunch. Man, smashing someone's false teeth, making them walk around just gumming stuff all day. That's, that's not right.

Just you saying gumming doesn't sound right at all either. It doesn't. But if you don't have any teeth, and somebody has smashed up your false teeth. It's not like you can go to the false tea store and just get some new ones that day. It's going to take a while. You're going to be gumming your food for some time. Yeah, you say that, but I just saw a new store called false teeth in an hour.

Well, that might be a very big hit. I don't know. Or it could be out of business next month. You can go there, get your false teeth. And by the time you're done, your Domino's pizza will be ready. That's all you need. Yeah. Now, again, I don't know what John's role.

was in the relationship as far as the abuse was concerned. He denied any of it. But of course, that's what an abuser would do. They're not going to come out and say, yeah, I did all that. They're going to deny, deny, deny. But what I think you can see here is a pattern on the part of Catherine Knight. She was a very vengeful person, whether she thought someone was cheating on her, abusing her or had even slighted her in any small way. And I definitely don't want anyone to take my

comments the wrong way. Domestic abuse is horrible. It's a very real problem in our society. The problem I have with Catherine's accounts is that the courts, like I said, for the most part, they couldn't corroborate any of her claims, but they were able to do so with some of the claims of her partners. Right. So according to them, in most of the cases, they believe that the men were the ones telling the truth. And I'm sure they looked into it. I mean, they're looking at facts and talking to witnesses and people like that. Support for true crime all the time comes from our friends at Rocket Mortgage by Quicken Loans. Home is so much more than a house. It's your own little slice of heaven. That's why when you find the perfect place for you and your family,

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All you have to do is visit audible.com slash T-Cat or text T-Cat to 500-500. That's A-U-D-I-B-L-E-D-C-C-C-A-T-T, or text T-C-C-C-C-T-C-T, or text T-C-C-C-T-C-C-R-H. And now we get to Catherine's relationship with John Price. She met John in 1998, so at that point, Gives, she would have been about 39 years old. John Price had two children from a previous marriage that lasted 15 years. The marriage ended in 1988, but John's ex-wife later came. out and said, you know what, this was a good man. We had a good relationship even after our marriage ended. He had never been violent. He had always provided for her and the children over the years. John apparently had a pretty good job making good money. Yeah. He was well liked by

all that knew him. They called him Pricy. Pricy. Yeah. That was his nickname, Pricy. Not all that much unlike Gibby or Fergie. Yeah. Or as you call me sometimes, El Cheapo. Yeah. So Catherine and John dated for a couple of years. Then they broke it off.

Then they got back together. So it was kind of, you know, off and on. They were together for about six years. But Gibbs, this was a very toxic relationship with documented acts of violence

committed by both parties. In this relationship, there's no doubt. there was violence committed by Price, but also violence committed by Catherine Knight growing up that way. And that's why I talked about it in the beginning, you know, how much of what she went through, how much of what she saw in her formative years kind of led up to what she ultimately became as an adult. There are some people that think, I can fix this person. Right.

We know that. Sure. men, women, it doesn't matter. Right. Some people are looking for a fixer upper for the, the lack of a better term. Yeah. They have some flaw, right? The, the person that they're thinking about dating and they think, you know what? Other than that, this person is a great person. I can fix this one thing. Yeah. I can do it. I know I can't. And they're, they're looking for that challenge, you know. I don't know any of, if any of that's true about Catherine. There is a part of me, Gibbs, that thing. thinks, okay, I'm sure there was some violence on the part of some of these men, but not to the point that she later tried to say there was. Well, and also if these guys did pull off any

violence towards her, I'm imagining they were shocked because they met their match or greater. Yeah, there's a part of me that thinks if there really would have been this amount of violence, I don't know that some of these men would have lived to talk about it. Right. So I mentioned John had two children. They lived with him while Catherine was living there off and on as well. It was a little murky about Catherine. I think she had her own place at times.

I think she stayed at John's quite a bit. But from what I gathered, a lot of their fights revolved around the fact that John refused to marry her. She wanted to get married to John. He didn't want it. And we've talked about how Catherine handled things in the past. She was vengeful. She had no problems doling out the retribution. On one occasion, she got really mad at John and she decided to get back at him. This might have been one of those times where she was pressuring him into marriage and he just came out and said, no, I don't want to do it. What she did was she made a video of some items. that John had apparently stolen from his work, she's narrating the video.

Oh. Basically telling on video, right. Hey, John stole this, this and this. What it was was like first aid kits or something that had been thrown in the trash. He took them home. Right. She's trying to turn them in. And she did.

She sent the video to John's place of employment. And he was terminated after 17 years on the job. Wow. Have I mentioned Gibbs that this is a woman you do not want to piss off. Yeah, don't cross her. On another occasion, she cut John on the chest with a knife, usually never good. Not good. I think if I even saw this woman pick up a knife, I'd probably pee down my leg.

Now, the folks at Walmart might not appreciate it, but it's Walmart. It's probably not the worst thing they saw that day. Yeah. They would have seen. Yeah. People at Walmart, man. But Gibbs, this is a woman you would have to be scared of, right? She's capable of anything.

Now, nobody, I don't think, could suspect that she's capable of what she's ultimately going to do. Well, I think that's exactly how you started this out with her being like the neighbor next door. You're not expecting her to turn on you like this. Yeah. There are signs. There are flashes.

but what she does in the end is so, you know, far above all of this. And we're, we're about ready to get into it. Now, there was another thing that Catherine wanted from John. In addition to getting married, she wanted him to grant her some rights to his house. You know, she had been with him on and off for five, six years. He had some money. He had a house. Let's say in the event that he died, she wanted. She wanted some part ownership of it so that she had something. She wanted some equity. Yeah. That's exactly what she wanted. And he said no. You know what? If I die, I'm leaving everything to my two kids. So court documents reveal that night got into a very heated exchange with John one night. He had some friends over. So there were witnesses. And it was all around this house thing. And she reportedly told him,

you'll never get me out of this house. I'll do you in first. Wow. Some people might construe that as a threat. I would say it was. That's a bold statement to say in front of other people. Well, and that's the point, right? If you're going to make a statement like that,

wouldn't you want to do it when there's no one else around? Yeah. No one else to corroborate the fact that you said it. I might take that as a warning sign that things need to change in the old price household. But it wasn't the only time that she was. She threatened John in the presence of others. Apparently, it was pretty common for Catherine to tell people that, you know, when things didn't go her way, she was going to hurt or even kill John Price. That was her go-to threat. Yeah. Now, a lot of people probably thought she was saying it in the heat of the

moment. You know how he said, I kill that guy. Well, I don't think anybody should really say that. But people do in the heat of the moment. I'm going to hurt this person. If they say this again, I'm going to kill him. Right. I don't think she was saying it that way. No, I don't think so either. It got so bad that John began confiding in his friends that he was afraid for his life. And he was finally ready to end this relationship and kick Catherine out of his house. Now, from everything we've talked about, you know, this is not something that Catherine Knight would take lightly. But she just said she wasn't going to go peaceful. No.

And she didn't take it lightly. So all of this brings us to Sunday, February 27, 2000. Catherine and John had an altercation, which led to the police being called out. There are indications that John put his hands on Catherine, which you would think Gibbs, by that point, he would have known that is something that is perilous. Do that at your own peril. Right. You probably don't want to put your hands on this woman who carries around knives like you and I would carry around our cell phone.

She grabbed a butcher's knife. And very smartly, John ran out of the house to one of his neighbors. He called the police. When the police got there, both people told their sides of the story. Catherine said, you know, he put his hands on me. He said, she grabbed. a butcher's knife and was trying to kill me. Yeah. But the other thing that John said was that, and he said this to police, he said, I want this woman out of my house. But police said they couldn't

take her out. They said for him to get her out, he would have to go through the court system. He said he would. And I really think it was after hearing this. This was like the final straw. Right. Catherine's thinking he's really going to go through with this and kick me out that she decided she was going to murder John Price. Now only did she want to make sure she stayed in the house, she wanted him to stay there too. Oh, I don't think she wanted him to leave. Yeah. And if you are going to leave, guess what?

You're going to leave here out of a body bag. Yeah. I don't think she wanted him to leave. She just didn't want to get kicked out of the house. Yeah. And again, I don't know all the reasons behind it. You know, did she really love this guy? I think this guy did make some pretty good money.

Yeah. And in the, well, he definitely did in the job that he had that he lost after 17 years. But even after that, he got another job. I'm not really sure she knew what love was. I'm not either. I'm not either. I don't think she had a lot of it or was shown a lot of it growing up. So I think you have a good point.

I don't know that she had the basis, the building blocks to really know what a healthy relationship was, what love was, what it was like to care for someone and have someone care for you. I do believe she was very distrustful of men. That part I truly believe. Well, and I can completely understand why, too, if it happened the way she said. Yeah, and that is the key. You know, if you believe her and what she said, then, yeah, you could see how she could be distrusting of men. So I said this happened on Sunday the 27th. Catherine didn't see John again until two days later on the 29th. 2000 was a leap year. Hence the 29th of February. She had been planning out her moves Gibbs for two days. She went to John's house and I'm not really sure how she did it, but the two ended up in bed together. Well, I kind of

know how she did it. It's usually not that hard for women to make that happen if they really want to, but this woman, I don't know. And knowing the way that John felt about her, yeah, it did seem kind of odd that he would say, yeah, okay, let's do it. It's been a quick note for me, but everybody's got their weakness. I think I'd rather start practicing being celibate right then and there than hop into bed with this woman. But it was reported that she went out, she bought some sexy lingerie. So, you know, too entitled. him. Sure. But she also had her knife ready and she made sure that she had all the tools she needed to carry out her plan. So sometime after the coitus, and I really just like to say the word

coitus to be honest. Yeah. I like it. It's a fun word to say. That's when Catherine Knight murdered John Price. I mentioned she had the knife with her. She must have had it in the bedroom because she first attacked John while he was lying in bed. The authorities. figured out that he was able to get up and try to run away down the hall and get out of the house. That's what he was attempting to do. Catherine caught up with him in the hallway and stabbed him in the back a bunch of times. Authorities also figured out that he did manage to reach the door, even open it and get outside. But that's as far as he got. This guy had suffered some major injuries. Catherine was able to drag him back inside the house to the hallway where he bled out.

So a couple of things. And I think it all goes back to me to the slaughterhouse, right? This is a woman, number one, that definitely knows how to use a knife. Absolutely. She was also a sturdy woman and probably had some strength to her from working in the slaughterhouse. It's kind of a job, I think where you might have to have some strength, especially if you're moving big, large pieces of meat around. Oh, just the carving of the meat itself. It's going to take a lot of strength. Yeah, definitely in your hands and your arms and all that. Yeah, all day long. But she was able to drag this man back inside the house. In all, she stabbed him at least 37 times. And that's just the number that they could count when they perform the autopsy. It was said Gibbs that there were probably many more.

But it was impossible to count them beyond that because the damage was just so massive. The wounds to John were deep. A lot of them penetrated some of his vital organs and caused him to bleed out. After John died, Catherine dragged his body into another room where she proceeded to skin him. So this is the part of the story where we really get into the silence of the of the lambs, Ed Gein type shit here. I mean, it's, it's brutal. She knows how to use a knife.

She must have taken her time. Gibbs, she cut his skin off so precisely that she was able to take it off in one piece. That's some skill there. And I mean all of it. Yeah. In one piece. Everything from his neck, his face, limbs, torso, even his jeans. So even his genitals.

Yeah. All in one piece. Wow. Imagine the kind of time and discipline that it would take to do this. It's definitely a skill, sadly, for the wrong reason. Hell, I can't even peel an orange in one fell swoop. Yeah. It always comes off in pieces.

And I mean, not to be macabre about it, but. Yeah, but yeah. I mean, it's definitely some good skills. Have you ever tried to peel that thin outside layer of an hour? Perfectly every time. Do you do it perfectly? I can't do it. I just use my K bar.

But this is what she did. This woman peeled a man. And when it was all said and done, she was left with a contiguous man suit. Yeah. Intact. Wow. She only left one patch of skin on his body. And it was a little patch on his chest that was said to have been where the scar was from

where she stabbed him before. Oh, when she stabbed him with the knife. Yes. Now, you think that was done on purpose as kind of, uh, oh, I'm going to leave this here as a reminder. Yeah. That I did this to you before. I win, buddy. Yeah. You're telling me that's the one piece she couldn't get off? No, she left it there on purpose. Absolutely. She did. So when she was finished, she took the skin suit and she hung it on a hook on a door. Like a meat hanger? Like a meat hook, you mean? hanging your meat. Yeah, like a meat hook. Yeah.

I think it was probably something like that. She probably maybe even got it from the slaughterhouse. But imagine this. This is a full body man's skin. Yeah. A suit of a man's skin hanging from a hook. Now, the one thing that jumped out at me, going back to, you know, peeling or slicing the skin off, the one thing you know is that she had to have used a knife.

that was extremely sharp, had to have. And probably continued to sharpen it throughout the process. Well, she did because when police finally got in there, and I'm jumping the gun a little bit, but in addition to finding the knife, which we'll talk about, they also found two different knife sharpeners. They both had blood on them. And so she had obviously used them during the process to keep the knife as sharp as possible. So what that means is that this woman stopped at certain points to sharpen her knife.

Yeah. Precision. During the post-mortem examination, they were able to put the skin back on Price's body. Oh, my. So they could determine kind of almost exactly how she took it off. Right. It's freaky. Yeah.

Imagine being that guy. Yeah. You go home. His wife's like, hey, hon, what'd you do at work today? Not a whole lot. Had to figure out how this woman so carefully removed a man's skin so that it stayed intact. Yeah, reskinned a man. It's not exactly dinner table conversation.

But here's the thing. She was not done degrading this man. She severed his head, clean off. Oh. And it was said very precisely. Like the cut was very precise. Then she stuck it on a soda bottle. That's one way to have it to always looking.

at you. Well, it kind of harkens back a little bit to Ed Gein. You know, Ed Gein would sit. I think he took his mom's head and he said it and he was kind of like talking to her. I don't know if she was talking to this guy's head, but it's all macabas. Get out. She probably was. She's probably like I told you. I told you I never leave here. Yeah. She arranged his arms and legs to make it look like I guess he was sitting there. Okay. Kind of been just a very strange thing. Really strange, especially with no skin on. But we were not even scratching the surface of strangeness yet. She then slice pieces of meat from this guy's rear end in the form of steaks. Well, she would know how to.

She would know. And that's why I made a big deal about the slaughterhouse. It's like, and you said that I think too, everything she needed to know, she learned at this slaughterhouse. So she started cutting up some vegetables. she took out a big pot. She put John Price's head in the pot along with some of the vegetables. And she proceeded to make a stew with the man's head. Head stew.

Head stew. Yeah. Then she took the steaks for lack of a better term. I don't know what else to call them. Yeah. That's, I guess. Is that a flank steak? I mean,

isn't that what a flank steak is? It comes from the rear end of an animal. This is from a huge. human being. Wow. And she cooked those up with some of the vegetables. Then she plated the steaks and vegetables for this man's son and daughter. Oh, they ate their dad. No, they didn't actually eat him. Oh, okay. But she plated it up as to say, hey, here you go. When you get home, this is for you. Trying to serve up their dad. And next each plate, she put a piece of paper. And, she put a piece of with each of their names on them, basically saying, here's your plate.

Right. Here's your plate. She had another plate just like those that she eventually threw into the backyard. Police later found it in the backyard. We'll talk about that a little bit later. At some point after all of this, this is a lot of stuff to accomplish. It is. Right?

All at one time. Catherine went into town and she withdrew money from John's account. through an ATM machine, and then she returned to his house. She took out some pills. She guzzled a whole bunch of them and passed out. So the thought here Gibbs, I believe, is that she had done what she intended to do. Now she was going to take her life. Not exactly sure why she went and took money out of the ATM machine, though.

Right. Who knows? Maybe to get the pills, but I couldn't find that piece of the puzzle. Right. But it makes sense. That's probably what she does. Maybe. I don't know. So this all kind of happened, you know, the night of the 29th, spilling over into the morning of March 1st. The thing is, John Price was a man who never

miss work. So when he didn't show up to work that morning, his employer and his coworkers, they were really concerned. And eventually, his employer sent someone to his house to check on him. They saw his car. They knocked on the door, but there was no answer. The problem is they also saw blood on the doorknob, and that prompted them to call the police. As it should. As it should, I usually call the police whenever I find blood on a doorknob, which is about every other time I'm here. Unless I'm at your house and then... This is normal. I just don't even question it. So police got on the scene. They gained entrance. They found Catherine Knight inside the house, passed out from the pills she'd taken.

But Gibbs, there's no way that any of these officers could have expected what they would find. This crime scene was so gruesome that some of the police officers later, many of whom were very experienced officers. It wasn't like they sent four or five rookies to this crime scene. These guys had to take time off from the job due to stress. Some quit altogether. And many of them refused to eat meat for a long period. of time. It would be rough to see a skin to person. Very rough. And it'll be, you know, the sea human flank steak sitting on a plate that's been all cooked up. Yeah, because it wouldn't have been

very hard for them to have been, you know, to figure out pretty quickly. Right. This guy has big chunks out of his rear end. We've got steaks. We've got his head in a pod. And I'm sure there was a certain odor that went along with this. I'm sure there was, although it all happened very quickly. I think you can see why some of the officers might have had just a little bit of trouble later with all this. I mean, stress, PTSD. I just don't think you walk away from something like that without it affecting you deeply

in some way. I mean, I've been negatively affected from just researching and talking about it. Oh, yeah. You know, in some small way, there was blood everywhere. In the hallway, authorities found a deep pool of blood that court documents said measured one meter by two meter. I'm not good with the conversion, so I had to look it up.

That's over three feet by six feet. Wow. That is a lot of blood. And they said it was deep, very deep. Well, but then again, I mean, he was being skinned. And the human body holds quite a bit of blood. Yeah. I mean, it really does.

It was splattered on the walls. Police found smears of blood in different locations of the house. I mean, obviously, that's how they're going to piece together, how this whole thing went down. They found the skin suit hanging from the hook in the hallway. It was riddled with slices from, you know, all these stab wounds. Those 30 plus stab wounds. Yeah, because, I mean, like I said, the skin suit was intact, but it didn't, you know, obviously there was stab wounds all over it, it was said Gibbs that the skin hung down from the hook to the point

where the feet were touching the floor. Wow. And when I say feet, it's just skin, but where the feet would have been. Also that said that the head hair and the pubic hair was still attached. Think about that. Strange. That is an image that would haunt your dreams. And it might haunt mine tonight.

It might haunt a few listeners' dreams. It could. It's nasty. But then they found John's body. And imagine what this looked like. This is a human body with no skin. I could be really difficult to see that. I mean,

I know that they put those dead bodies on tour where they show the skeleton. What are you talking about? I've never seen. You never seen those at the museums? I've never seen an advertisement for dead bodies on tour. Yeah. You're acting like it's the ice capades or something. It's ice capades.

Come see Dorothy Hamill. Yeah. No. What's dead bodies on tour? Yeah. They take them to the different museums and pose them. And they show them from the skeleton system to the muscular system to have. But you're telling me it's a real body?

Yeah. With real muscle. Yeah. How are they preserving it? I don't know how they do it, but they do it. Okay. Yeah. I have a lot of questions here that need to be answered.

It's a bizarre thing. You know, especially when they do the. sectional one. So you see how we see it, but then you see it on the flip side. From the side, kind of from the inside side. Yeah, definitely weird. You know, you donate your body to science. That could happen. I don't know, man. I've said this before. What you do in your free time is up to you. Yeah. But I think spending your time going to see dead bodies on tour, I don't know how much tickets cost for this thing. I'm out. Sounds like a good t-shirt, though. Dead bodies on tour? No, because nobody would understand what it means.

I'm questioning it right now. Yeah. But you're right, it had to have been a sight. I mean, a body with no skin. You see it in movies. I've never seen it in real life. Right. But you see it in movies.

It's movie magic. I can imagine what it might look like. Then they found the macabre dinner setting. They also found a long butcher's knife next to John's body that was determined. to be the murder weapon. And again, let's not forget about the pot on the stove with his head in it. That's something I wouldn't want to see. No, not at all.

I don't want to see any of it, to be honest with you. So it wasn't really that hard to figure out who might have done this. The prime suspect is essentially comatose in the house. Yeah. Passed out. Eventually, they interview Catherine Knight at the police station. What she told police. is that she had no recollection of the events surrounding John Price's death. Nothing.

She didn't remember killing him, skinning him, cooking him, possibly eating him. Yeah. What she did say was that she remembered the two having sex that night and then she said she took some nerve pills. But after that, nothing. So essentially what she's saying is, I don't know, I had amnesia from this point forward. Right. Yeah. I conveniently do not recall.

Sounds like a politician's answer to a question that they don't want to answer. I concur. But Gibbs, I think the evidence was overwhelming. Catherine Knight was arraigned on February 2nd, 2001 for the murder of John Price. Now, at that point, she pleaded not guilty. Her trial is going to come up in October of that same year, leading up to the trial. trial. One thing that I found very interesting is that, you know, they're trying to pick jurors. And the jurors were told that they could be excused if they felt as though they wouldn't be

able to look at some of the very graphic evidence that was going to be submitted at trial. And it would have been graphic. Oh, big time. I can't imagine, you know, stuff that was going to be too much worse than what these people we're going to see, even after they picked the jury, jurors were given an option of viewing the material or not, which I found very strange. Yeah, to put that type of control. Yeah, because I think in the United States, that would not happen. Right. So, you know, we're always talking about the differences in different, in the judicial system in different countries. I think in

the United States, it would be viewed as, well, how can you really decide the case? If you, if you haven't seen all the evidence. Right. Now, I don't know how you can stop a juror from looking away. No, that's true. But to actually be recused from viewing it to leave the room or whatever,

I don't think would happen. But it wouldn't matter because as the trial is getting underway, Catherine Knight pleaded guilty. So essentially, all this evidence, you know, all these things that were going to come out at trial didn't happen. Now,

what she said is that she did that to, save John's family, the trauma of having to view all this evidence. These are the same people that she tried to serve John too. So make of that what you will. I mean, they still had people testify. So they had a lot of men from Catherine's past, testify to the things of which she was capable, most of which we've already talked about. A criminal psychologist who examined Catherine testified that she suffered from borderline personality

disorder, but she knew exactly what she was doing when she murdered John Price. John Price's two children gave impact statements. I mean, you know, this is all around. She's already pled guilty. This is all around, okay, what sentence are we going to give her? Is the judge going to give her? Exactly. It's kind of like the penalty phase, I guess you would say.

here in the States. And it was on November 9th that the judge sentenced her to the maximum penalty. 46-year-old Catherine Knight became the first woman in Australia to be sentenced to a term of natural life with her file marked never to be released. Never. That's a huge thing. To label that never. I think it's a huge thing anytime you're talking about firsts that happen in the 2000s. Right. It's not like Australia has not been around for, you know, quite a number of years. Exactly. Right. So this woman was so bad. She was the first person that they ever gave this sentence to. First woman. Right. Right. Do I say woman or person? You said person. Yes. First woman.

It was reported that John's family openly cheered in the courtroom after the judge handed down the sentence. And the judge made his comments. And it's always interesting. interesting, right? To hear what the judge has to say about a guilty defendant, he said that the last minutes of Mr. Price's life must have been a time of abject terror. I don't think there's any doubt about that. What he would have gone through prior to dying was horrible. What happened after his death was, was really horrible as well, but he did not die an easy death. If there is, there are some things that you would call an easy death, I guess. I don't know if that's a great term, but you know what I mean. We all want to think, okay, we're going to die in our sleep at the age of

99. Right. Not feel a thing. Peaceful. And that's how we're going to go. Nobody wants to go the way that John Price went and stabbed 37 times in the neck, the chest, the back, left to bleed out in your own hallway. Devastating. By a woman that you've shared your life with. Yeah. for six years. Someone you should feel okay turning your back on. Yeah, this is not the boogeyman off the street. Right. This is a woman that you willingly let in your house, has been there for, you know,

quite a number of years. The judge said that Catherine's history of violence, together with her flawed personality, caused him to conclude that she is without a doubt, a very dangerous person, and likely if released into the community to commit further. acts of serious violence, including even murder against those who cross her, particularly males. I think that's a fair statement. I was going to say, I think that's a very fair statement. She's shown a pattern of it for many, many years. I think if given a slap on the wrist, and I don't know what a slap on the wrist in Australia is, to be honest with you, but we know

there are some countries that let people out much quicker than we do here in the United States. I think if she was to get out, she would go back to doing the same thing. I think so. Would it result in murder? I don't know, but is anybody willing to take that chance? Definitely would be some major assault issues there. But I think you're right. I think she probably would find her way back to murder.

And I know the judge wasn't willing. I don't think probably anybody in the case. community or around that was willing to take that chance or wanted to. Yeah, why would you? This was a huge story. I mean, this made obviously the news in Australia, but it made the news all around the world. Yeah. This was a very big story back in 2000, 2001. So the big question that I have, Gibbs, and I think the question that a lot of people have about Catherine Knight is whether or not she was truly a cannibal. There's no doubt she did all of the other things that we've talked about. We kind of skirted this issue for a reason because I wanted to talk about it at the very end.

Right. You know, I mentioned the extra plate that she threw out in the backyard. That plate had a piece of John's rear end on it. Okay. Cooked up. There are some that theorized this was another way for her to humiliate John by throwing him out. for animals to eat. Right. Now, there are a lot of people that believe Catherine ate some of what was on that plate found that she couldn't finish it and then just threw it out in the backyard. There are others that believe she ate some of the stew made from John's head.

I saw a lot about that. So one way or the other, I do think there's a very good chance that she consumes some portion of John price. Because to me, even if you ate the stew and it was just the broth and the vegetables, it cooked in a man's head. Yeah. It's a man stew. You are a cannibal in my eyes. Either way.

I agree with that. Sure. Catherine Knight is currently housed in the Silverwater Women's Correctional Center. I guess her fellow inmates there, they call her Nana. Nana? Yeah. She probably gives them good recipes. Seems like a term of endearment, but.

Yeah. Oh, I bet you anything. The one job they don't have her doing is working as a cook in the prison kitchen. I'm sure she's not allowed to be around anywhere there's a knife. No. And anywhere where food is prepared. Yeah. But that's it. That's the case of Catherine Knight. I think no doubt. She's one of the most infamous women in Australia. I mean, you could look at it as one of the most infamous women killers. anywhere. No, I definitely think she ranks up there. Yeah, she ranks up there. She might not be number one, but I mean, what she did is brutal. Yeah. I mean, if a man did that, you would think, how could he do that? Oh, I know. But when you look at the picture of Catherine Knight and then square it with all the details of the crimes that she committed, right? I don't want to say it makes it worse, because it's the same act, whether a man or a woman commits it. But to me, it is kind of harder for me to wrap my head around. Right. The fact that this matronly looking woman could not only kill a man, but skin him.

Yeah. Eat him, cookie mob, all these things. It's just very alarming, man. And I'm, and I think she probably did eat them. I think she did. Yeah. I think she did. I mean, most people refer to. her as a cannibal. Right. But I think there is some doubt as to whether she ate the cooked piece of meat. I did see some kind of more concrete. I don't know if I wouldn't call it concrete, but I saw some more things about the fact that she probably had a bowl of the stew. Yeah.

But to me, that's just as bad. I mean. Sure. Sipping the broth, man. You're sipping man broth. Either way, it's not good. No. It's not good.

You're not going, mm, good. You know, Lippon's not even wanting to touch this. No, not at all. So before we get into voicemails and mailback, just want to say again, we have an episode coming out next week. We do. Richard Keklinski Redux. Yeah. I want everybody, and I'll speak for you, Gibbs, to have just an unbelievably great holiday.

No matter what you celebrate, make sure that you're taking that time. If anything, this story should kind of burn it into you. Right. I need to spend the time with my loved ones and really cherish it, not just kind of go through the motions of being at this person's house or that person's house. Hey, if you're going to be there, be there. Yeah. Be present.

Yeah. And really cherish that time that you're getting to spend with these people. When you're done with the podcast, put the phone down and be there. Yeah. but not until you're done with the podcast. You telling somebody to put their phone down is really rich. I just want to tell you that. Yeah, it is, isn't it?

Yeah. As people that watch our Patreon videos will attest to. Right. Not lately, though, because the new policy is Gibby has to put his phone at least 10 feet away from the studio. Yeah, I'd do good. During the video. During the video. All right, buddy, we have some voicemails.

You want to check those out? Yeah, let's hear him. Hey, my name's Mike Garth. They go by. One, I haven't seen years here. And also the fact that he was, he genuinely seemed sorry for what he did and really didn't want to be the way he was. And I really found that interesting. And also I'm a big fan of true crime.

So keep doing what you guys are doing. Talk you later. Man, that's awesome. Yeah. No, appreciate that. You know, we always talk about Ohio and serial killers. Indiana's got a fair amount. Yeah, I always think of her.

Especially for the, for the size that Indiana is. Yeah. Hi, Mike and Giddy. This is Lauren calling from Denver, Colorado. I'm actually an Ohio native and spent a lot of time in the Dayton Springfield area at one point. So I love the kind of local throwback every time I hear you all. I'm calling to kind of raise awareness and ask that you maybe look into the case of Edward Jackson, the Grandview rapist, who from 1970s.

75 to 1982, raped more than 35 women, racking up more than somewhere close to, more than 90, somewhere close to 100 different charges, and who was sentenced to hundreds of years in prison. He is now 75 years old and was last eligible for parole in August of this year. The case is interesting in that, you know, it was every few months back in the 70s, early 80s, where Columbus, the Grandview area, was just being terrorized by this person, and eventually they found the reason it was so difficult to catch him was because he was a physician.

So we had a terrifying trick in that he would treat the women who were coming in to report him. So in any case, I just want to say hi. I love what you're doing. Sincerely appreciate the way that you approach cases and really highlight the victim's side of the story, rather than glorifying the criminal. And just appreciate you.

Keep your own time ticket. Thanks. Wow, Gibbs. She's out in Denver, but, you know, spent time in the Dayton area, two places that you and I know very well. Yeah, absolutely. That case sounds fascinating. So definitely going to put that down, look into it.

Okay. The guy's 75 years old. I don't care. No. If you rate 35 women, I don't care if you're 98. Doesn't matter. I'm not letting you out, man. And, you know, I look at a doctor, takes an oath.

Sure. And you abuse that oath on top of everything else, right? Because people come to you thinking that they can trust you. Yep. And that's why it sounds very interesting. Oh, yeah. Because it sounds like these women were coming in. He's seeing them knowing that he was the one that attacked them.

Yeah. Seeing them after the fact, I guess. I don't know. We'll have to check into it. Hi, my name's Tina. I just donated to your Patreon and I just want to say I love you guys. I got turned on to you guys by Morbid Podcast, which they highly recommend with you. And I loved your episodes on Shawcross because he lives in my area. And you guys did an excellent coverage on him.

And I just want to say I'm addicted, but I'm only on episode 57. So if you guys give me a shout out, I'm probably not going to hear it for like a super long time, but I hope I so hear it. I love you guys. I'm team both. Love you. And guys, keep it going and keep that shit ticking. That's why I liked that one, gives. Keep that shit ticking.

I've never heard that one. I don't know that we'll change ours to that. But I did get a kick out of it. So, yeah, it may be a while, depending on how fast you're listening to these episodes, but you will hear it eventually. They're getting close. Hi, guys. This is Angie Jerry. I live in Louisiana, and I was on the road today coming to work, and I heard something terrible that has happened.

Just a few days ago, a man named John Jacob Jenkins was accused of giving a woman too much, I guess, narcotics in the attempt to, actually assault her and she died and because of that they went ahead and investigated him and they found some other very disturbing things about him so i just wanted you to kind of have your heads up with that see if maybe later on we can get some more information on him but i'm a long time listener since 2017 i think and i just want to tell y'all doing such a great job and i'm always excited on Sunday when I can hear a new episode. Thanks so much. Bye. That's awesome. Yeah, it is awesome. We appreciate that. And another case to look into. This is why I keep saying, Gibbs, you know, people ask me, aren't you going to run out of cases to cover?

And sadly, I don't know that we ever would. No. Because as the years go by, I already have like 500 cute up. As the years go by, there's all these new cases, and it's sad, but, you know, these new cases that are coming out. And I'm glad she's all excited about hearing it on Sunday night, you know? Yeah. I mean, I work, I work so hard getting it ready. Don't even start with taking care of it to make sure it goes out on time on Sunday. It's just, yeah, it's a lot of work. But thank you. Hey, listen, man, we had mailbag. All right. Julie Farron sent us some socks. Yeah. That she makes personally on what she said was a 1920s machine.

Really? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, her company is called nostalgic knits. That's cool. And I think you can find it on Facebook. I'll be excited about wearing them. Rhonda All Red, or she, I know she's a big fan.

She sent us, uh, she sent you the biggest Twizzlers in the history of Twizzlers. They're huge. They're like a foot and a half long. And she sent me some of my favorite Duke sausages. Yeah. So obviously she listens. She knows this very well. She knows what we like.

Thank you both. Then someone Gibbs sent us some really cool coffee mugs. One says Team Ghiby. Okay. And the other one says true crime all the time established 2016. It's very cool. Yeah. The problem is there was no name.

Oh. Because they were shipped from whatever company they had make them. Yeah. And so it just said the company name. I don't know who to give credit to. So whoever you are. Yeah, reach out to us. Yeah, let us know.

Because we're very appreciative and I'd like to give credit to who. who at least know if for some reason they don't want credit, that's fine, but I'd like to know who sent them. All right, buddy, that is it for another episode of true crime all the time. Again, we're wishing everyone a happy holiday.

So from Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.