True Crime All The Time - Kathleen Wise

Episode Date: October 14, 2024

When Kenneth Wise passed unexpectedly in June 2011, his family and local authorities assumed he died of a heart attack. Weeks later, routine toxicology tests revealed that he actually died of a morphine overdose. Suspicion turned to his wife Kathleen, a registered nurse with access to narcotics. Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss Kathleen Wise and the murder of her husband. This is a strange case in that there is no apparent motive for the crime. But authorities slowly began putting evidence together against Kathleen. Would it be enough for a jury to convict her?You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 405 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson. And with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. How are you? Hey, I'm doing good about you. I'm doing pretty well. Good. You and I are taping early. You're getting ready to go on a well-deserved vacation. Yeah. Court-ordered. Mandated. Mandated. Vacation as I use my air quotes. Yeah. So we're taping earlier in the week than we normally do. And then Morph and I had to tape

criminology very early because you know his where he lives in Florida is kind of right in the path of this hurricane mountain. Yeah. Which appears to be strengthening and I'm concerned for the people of Florida and who knows what path it'll take up through the

country. Stay safe. Yeah, everybody stay safe. Definitely. Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shoutouts. We had Mike Oba. Hey, Mike. Anna Maple. What's going on, Anna? Alyssa. Hey, thanks, Alyssa. Christina Barlow. Hey, Barlow. Victoria Gentry. What's going on, Victoria?

Stephanie. Stephanie. Awesome, Stephanie. Maria Cruz. There's Maria. Samuel Orenberg. Yeah. I like saying that.

You like that, don't you? Danielle Barthel. Hey, Daniel. Amanda Harmon Wilson. Well, thank you, Harmon Wilson. And last but not least, Sarah Jane Blanford. Well, that's awesome. Thanks, Sarah Jane.

Yeah, and thanks for all the new support. And then if we go back into the vault, this week we selected Faith Sadowski. Always believed. Get it? You always did believe. You had faith. I had faith.

So we appreciate all the continued support. So we have an episode out right now on true crime all the time unsolved where we're talking about 25-year-old Susan Lamplew. Susan was a real estate agent who in 1986 was getting ready to show a house to someone and disappeared. And they have never identified the person she was supposed to show the house to. They have it in her notebook as Mr. Kipper, but the police do have a main suspect in this case. So it is definitely not solved, but more solved than most.

Yeah. Let's put it that way. I would say the authorities are pretty locked in on one individual. Yeah, absolutely. So check that out. All right, buddy, are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time? I am ready. We're talking about Kathleen Wise.

When Kenneth Wise passed away unexpectedly in June 2011, his family and local authorities assumed he died of a heart attack. But weeks later, routine toxicology tests revealed that he actually died of a morphine overdose. And very quickly, suspicion turned to his wife, Kathleen, who was. was a registered nurse with access to narcotics. Kenneth and Kathleen Wise were married for 37 years, which is a, you know, that's a good amount of time. It's a healthy run. It is.

Kenneth was born on December 18, 1939. He was an Army veteran, and he worked as a truck driver. He was well known and respected in the small town of Campbellsville, Kentucky. Probably a UK fan. Hopefully. It was both Kenneth and Kathleen. second marriage. They each had one child from their first marriage and they had two kids together. Kathleen stayed at home to raise the kids. She was generally regarded as a quiet person who kept to

herself. And you know what I always say, Gibbs, sometimes it's the quiet ones. You really got to watch out for. You really do. Because you never know what they're thinking. They don't voice their thoughts all that much. But they're thinking. Well, most people are thinking. Are they? But what are they thinking. That's the question. After more than a decade of marriage, the two oldest kids were adults and the youngest was a teenager. Kathleen decided she wanted to reenter the workforce in her 40s. She completed nursing school and obtained her license in 1993. And I think a lot of people do this. You know, some women stay at home with the kids. Some men stay at home with the kids while their wives were. But at a certain point, you know, when the kids get older, what are you going to do?

You're going to stay home all day with very little to do. And I think a lot of people decide that they want a little something more in their life. They want to, you know, go back into the workforce. And that's what Kathleen did. My ex-sister and all did the exact same thing. Yeah. I think a lot of people do that. Went back and got a nursing degree.

Now, I don't know about today because I do feel. feel as though it gets harder and harder to live on one income. I mean, a bag of chips right now is $7. It's a lot of money for a bag of chips. It is. Everything is so expensive. You know, I think of my grandparents. My grandfather didn't make that much money. He was a security guard at General Motors, you know, here in Dayton. My grandmother stayed home. They had one child. my dad, I just feel like it's much harder to do that nowadays. Oh, for sure. Just the cost of living so expensive. It was pretty easy for Kathleen to find a job because Campbellsville has a lot of nursing home. She worked as an RN at Medco Center of Campbellsville. Her coworkers thought she was hardworking

and cared about the resident. But Kathleen's new career changed her relationship with Kennan. She worked long hours. She wasn't home much. And Kenneth had stopped working due to heart issues. He had a stint placed in his heart and he stopped smoking. Kathleen's nursing income allowed him to go into retirement. I wonder how people feel about that. You know, if all of a sudden you're going back to work, but then your other partner, spouse, whatever, decides to retire, is there some resentment? I would say a lot of times, yeah. You know, there's, uh, there was, resentment on my part towards my wife for many, many years whenever her summer break rolled around. Yeah. Because, you know, I had no summer break. I had to get up, go to work. Well, now that I'm

working from home, it's the other way around. Yeah. Payback. When she has to get up and go to work, there is resentment. And she doesn't keep it quiet. She is very vocal about it. So, saying, I can't believe I have to get up and go to work and you get to stay home all day. Yeah. You're still laying in bed. Yeah. She doesn't voice it in the morning. She voices it later, you know, like when she gets home.

Yeah. But when school first starts, it's pretty much an every night thing. Oh, I bet. For a little while. Probably. Kenneth spent most of his time tinkering around his and Kathleen small farm. They own several acres as well as horses and cattle. They always want to just tinker around.

I think you do your fair share of tinkering with what and how successfully, I don't know. By 2000, all four kids had moved out. You know, to outsiders, it seemed like Kenneth and Kathleen were happy, empty nesters. They enjoyed traveling with their horses and riding new trails. So some happy trails. But are they? You know, we talk about this so often. You know, what does it look like to,

people outside of a relationship because as we've said many times there's really no way to know what is truly going on inside someone's home inside you know their marriage and all that because you're only getting to see bits and pieces of it yeah and normally people aren't going to show you the bad stuff so you look at these people and you think man they're doing well they're happy their kids are gone. They must be happy. They got to be happy. They got to be happy. Over a decade later by 2011, Kathleen and Kenneth had grown further apart. Kathleen's work schedule was extremely busy. And she and Kenneth were basically living separate lives. And they were even sleeping in separate bedrooms, which I know a lot of people do, especially as they get older.

You know, maybe one person snores and the other person, you know, grows tired of it. He wants it's good night's sleep. Once a good night's sleep, doesn't want to be bothered. Sometimes I think it comes down to, sometimes they like different comfort levels of bed, like firm, soft. You know there, there are beds that you can have that on different sides. Yeah, if you want to spend that large amount of money to get that. So you're just going to buy two separate beds.

Instead of one bed that does both. I'm just saying if you had an extra bed in the house already, you might be like, I'm just going to go sleep from this one. It's more comfortable. I just love trying to punch holes in your theories and then see what your response is. On June 6th, 2011, Kenneth attended a family birthday alone. He asked Kathleen to come with him, but she refused. However, his family didn't think he was upset by this.

He seemed to be cheerful and outgoing at the party. 71-year-old Kenneth Watts was found dead in his home on June 8th, 2011. Kathleen's son who lived nearby was the one who called coroner Terry Dabney when Damny arrived at the house. He noticed that Kathleen appeared to be grief-stricken. Kenneth was lying in bed as if he had died in his sleep. Kathleen explained that Kenneth attended the birthday party on June 6th. On the 7th, he was sick and Kathleen stayed home from work to be with him. He spent most of the day in bed. She fed him chicken noodle soup, water. In the evening, he started to complain of chest pains.

So she gave him a nitroglycerin pill before he went to bed. He was sick to his stomach that night. And he was vomiting and stumbling around the bathroom. When she checked on him in the morning, he was dead. Kathleen believed he died from either heart problems or an unknown virus. So we have the coroner saying that Kathleen was grief-stricken. And let's face it, Gibbs, you would expect a spouse of 37 years to be grief-stricken. Yeah, you would hope.

That's a long time to be together for you not to be. And to suddenly lose your spouse, your partner, maybe your best friend. And then Kathleen goes through this explanation, right, of the couple days leading up to his death and then, you know, the night before. I mean, if you're hearing this, it sounds pretty believable. You have a 71-year-old man with a history of heart problems. He's complaining of chest pains and, you know, he doesn't wake up the next morning. And it's coming from his wife who is a nurse. So when you think the information is a little bit more credible when... Yeah. I mean, if you're looking at it from the standpoint of, okay, they haven't been married a week, right?

Right. And you might have the feeling that she's out for a big payday or or something like that. Yeah. I think this is something that a person and authority would hear. And it at the very least would sound plausible that it was based on these statements in Kenneth's medical history that the coroner ruled his cause of death a heart attempt. It turned out that coroner Terry Damny was also the local funeral home director. Before preparing the body, he collected blood and urine samples for additional testing.

This is routine practice for unexpected deaths or deaths not attended by a physician. Is that a pretty good gig? I'm the coroner, but I'm also the funeral home director. Well, they do seem to kind of go hand in hand. Yeah. Kind of like double dip. though, right? Getting paid for doing some of the same work twice, I guess. So he collects these samples and the specimens were sent to a local crime lab, but it would take a few weeks to get the

results. During this waiting period, Kenneth was buried. The coroner got the toxicology results on June 28 and was shocked by what he found. Kenneth had 5,738 nanograms per millilie. of morphine in his blood. Wow. It does seem like a lot. And it really seems like a lot when you find out that a therapeutic dose of morphine is typically between 10 and 80 nanograms per milliliter. And a fatal dose of morphine is around 200 nanograms per milliliter.

So 200 is fatal or can be fatal. 5,700 is most definitely going to be fatal. And it was very obvious to the coroner that Kenneth died of a morphine overdose, not a heart attack. In fact, the morphine level was so high that the coroner didn't even think it could have been an accidental overdose. Someone intentionally gave him the morphine, which led to two theories, either murder or assisted suicide. I mean, that is a large volume of morphine. Yeah, I mean, let's just break it down. You know, let's say that, I don't know, you had some pills of morphine, right?

And they were 10 nanograms per milliliter. That means somebody would have had to have taken over 500 to get to that, you know, 5,000 plus level. Even if they were 80 nanograms per milliliter, you're still talking about a, bunch of pills. Yeah, or a healthy injection. Yeah, however, the morphine was delivered. I don't know how many people are being prescribed morphine injections to give themselves at home. But during the investigation, Deputy Sheriff Brian Pickard learned that Kathleen was a nurse and had access to narcotics. She was responsible for storing narcotics and destroying drugs that were no longer

needed, which included morphine. So, I mean, you know, you and I have done so many cases and everybody listening knows, right? The spouse is going to be looked at in any situation where there's even a hint that foul play was involved. Now, in the beginning, there was no hint, right? This was thought to have been a natural death. But the toxicology report kind of blew that out of the water, you're going to look at the spouse. And when it turns out that the spouse is a registered nurse who has access to the very thing that the toxicology report shows the victim had, you know, in his system, well, you're going to look at the spouse even harder. You have to. You have to look at her. Yeah, you have to look at her to even rule her out to move on to another suspect. But it's still

It must be shocking, right, after 37 years? I mean, I don't think it's your first thought you have. No, because, you know, you have to get into the area of motive. And obviously, it's something we'll talk about. In the second week of July, authorities obtained a court order to exhumed Kenneth's body. Kathleen was not informed of this. And normally, the spouse would be, right? but if you were suspected of murdering the person, okay, I think police can figure out a way to go around you.

Yeah, probably don't want you to know this. There wasn't much evidence to be found because Kenneth was embalmed and, you know, he'd been dead for weeks at this point. But the autopsy confirmed that he did not die of a heart attack. Authorities executed a search warrant on July 14th, according to the 7th,000. According to the Central Kentucky News Journal, deputy seized a computer and a Jim Beam flask found in a barn. Okay. Two odd things that don't seem to go together. No, they don't.

Well, maybe for some people they do. Did you say do not? I did. Okay. I thought so. I was hoping that got by you. No, it did not. Do not.

Authorities also spoke to Kathleen. Kathleen talked to police for the police for the law. the first time in June. She said she thought Kenneth was suffering from a virus on the day he died. During the night, she heard him in the bathroom and found him leaning against the window sill with a broken towel rack in his hands because he had fallen. And, you know, just like the other thing she said. I think in the beginning, all of this sounds very believable. You know, he's sick. He's, he's having trouble. He falls. Well, what do you do? You reach out, you try to grab on to anything you can.

You grab onto a towel rack with your full weight. Chances are it's going to, it's coming down. Oh, for sure. But during her July 14th interview, Kathleen was once again asked to walk the police through the day Kenneth died. She said she woke up around 8 a.m. On June 8th and found Kenneth not breathing. She checked his heartbeat with her stethoscope and she thought she heard.

heard one. She also said he was still warm to the touch. She did chest compressions, but was unsuccessful. She picked up the phone, but couldn't remember if she called her workplace first or Kenneth's brother. And investigators found this very odd, because as a nurse, they thought she would definitely know to call 911 first. Kind of like the rule of thumb. I mean, I think most people would call 911 first, but you would definitely think a registered nurse would know that. You're not calling your workplace. You're not calling your husband's brother before you call 911. If you're at the point where you're doing chest compressions.

Get the help rolling. And then you can make those other phone calls if you feel like you need to. Yeah, or you can make them later. Kathleen mentioned that she spent most of June 7th trying to convince Kenneth, to go to the hospital, but he didn't want to. You know how you get somebody to the hospital that doesn't want to go? You call 911 and let them come there and try to convince those people. Yeah, I get that.

But, you know, here's the thing for me. Kathleen can pretty much say whatever she wants because the only person who could disagree with her or point out, you know, inconsistencies in her statement is deceased. And that happens in a lot of cases, if you think about it. The police noticed that Kathleen didn't cry or show any emotion throughout the interview. And I'm sure they found that very strange. Yeah, and I know some people will act one way, or others will act a different way. But 37 years, you think he'd shed a few tears.

Yeah. And some people might say, well, she's a registered nurse. You know, she is used to death and things like that. and maybe, you know, her emotions are a little more muted than someone would be in another profession. But it's still your husband of 37 years. Kathleen agreed to take a polygraph, which was scheduled for July 19th. Her results indicated deception when she told the story of the knight Kenneth done. And I always wonder about this, Gibbs.

You know, someone is asked to take a polygraph test. and they agreed to it and they actually take it. If they know that they did something they weren't supposed to, what's going through their mind? Well, there's a chance I could beat it. Maybe. I mean, I think I can beat one. I keep telling you that.

You've given me one and I think I did pretty good. Well, when you just give a bunch of nonsensical answers, I think it fools the polygraph machine. Exactly. You figured it out. how I do it. Yeah. Yeah.

Why did I have to put that tack in my shoe and pushed down on it then? That was just for fun. Oh, okay. So after the test, Detective Mark Bratcher told Kathleen, she reacted to the exam and said, per the courier journal, this is your opportunity to tell the truth. Kathleen then admitted she took a lot of morphine home with her on June 6th, 2011. and she stored it in a glass jar. On June 7th, she put it in Kenneth's drinking water.

But didn't take very long to break her, did it? No. At that point, Taylor County deputies took over the interview. Kathleen told the deputies she and her husband hadn't been speaking for almost two and a half months. Kenneth asked her son to call her to ask her if she wanted to divorce. Kathleen told her son that she didn't want a divorce. and he relayed this to Kenneth. She had also personally spoken to Kenneth

and told him she did not want a divorce. She again told deputies that she took morphine home and put it into Kenneth's drinking water. She felt badly about how much she gave him and said she shouldn't have done it. I mean, okay, after the fact, now you feel bad because you know that it killed him? According to Wise v. Commonwealth,

a deputy asked, you gave him the water in morphine. And you really didn't think that it'd kill him? Is that what you said? Kathleen replied, I didn't think that it would. I mean, it was just, it wasn't a great amount. But why would she even give him the morphine in water if her intentions were not to hurt him? She had to know what she was doing. The deputy asked if she gave her husband the water to intentionally kill him or just to make him sick.

Kathleen said, I didn't want to kill him. I know that I did not want him to die. I know that. Okay. You're not really answering the question of why you put the morphine in his glass. All you're saying is that I didn't want him to die. Well, then what did you want to happen? What did you think was going to happen? During her interview, Kathleen revealed a side of her husband. No one had seen. She claimed he was verbally and sometimes physically abusive towards her. Kathleen explained, my husband was not a very nice person to me. I mean, I didn't want him to die. I didn't want to kill him, but you know he was so controlling. I had no rights. You know I worked. I would get $350 out of my paycheck and he got the rest. He would buy things and not tell me none of this is an excuse for killing anybody and I'm not making excuses for myself. I'm not. I think if I'm one of the detectives, in this interview, I'm confused as all get out at this point, in it? Because I don't understand

what she's trying to set. Yeah, I mean, is she saying that she was in an abusive, controlling relationship? But she didn't want out. Yeah. She said she didn't want a divorce. She said she wasn't trying to kill him. So it makes you think maybe wasn't as abusive or controlling as she wants you to think. Well, we don't know if. any of this is true, right? This is her side of it and there is no other side. That's very true. She also said Kenneth would sometimes push her around. She was asked what she expected to accomplish by giving him the morphine. She said, I hadn't even thought about it before. I had not deliberated on anything like that. I just was thinking, you know, tonight, I can just maybe get some peace.

I can just sit here and not have to worry about him screaming at me about something. She was asked if she thought he would go to sleep after drinking the morphine and she said, I just thought he'd have a good night's sleep. She later said, intentionally, I could never kill anyone. No matter how bad they were to me, I just couldn't do it. But she admitted that she brought home a lot of morphine. That's how she said it. A lot.

A lot. She put it in a glass jar. She obviously had plans for the morphine. There's no doubt about that. Now, what is she saying here? He was tough to live with. He was more so than that. He was abusive both physically and verbally.

I just wanted him to, what, leave me alone? And I thought the best way to get that piece was to dose him with morphine so that he would be quiet. Kathleen described how she was helping Kenneth into bed and he pushed her. She told him, please don't be so hateful with me. She said that if Kenneth wasn't screaming at her, he paid no attention to her and treated her as if she wasn't even there. She was asked why she didn't get a divorce and said, I guess I just loved him. She claimed she never hated Kenneth, but there were times where she just didn't like him. Just didn't like him so much. She, killed him. You ever not hate somebody but didn't like them? Yes. Yeah. Many, many times.

Why are you looking at me? No, no, I have. I mean, I, it's hard for me to say that I've ever really hated anyone. Yeah, it's a pretty strong word. But at times, I've disliked a lot of people throughout my life. But I just want to kind of go back and, You know, let's say you're the detective. I mean, what are you making of this story? Is, does any of it sound reasonable? Now, you might believe, even without any hard evidence, that Kenneth was abusive, maybe physically, maybe verbally, maybe both.

But a lot of what she's saying just doesn't seem to make sense. No, and look, her job, part of her job was to help dispose of these very strong, narcotics. And being a nurse, I'm assuming she knew what different dosages met and had the experience and the knowledge of knowing what those medications could do to somebody if you gave them too much. Well, my other thought is, I'm assuming that part of the requirement of the job in destroying these medications was to not take them home. Probably the first step. Do not leave this facility with this medication. Probably not.

Do not leave this room where they're locked up. But obviously, she found a way to get them out. At the end of the interview, Kathleen was informed she was going to be arrested for murder. She asked if she could tell a family member she was allowed to do so. And the deputy sheriff overheard her telling someone, she put morphine in Kenneth's water. So, I mean, regarding that fact, I think. think she was being pretty honest with everyone. Yeah. She's telling the investigators that. She's telling family members that. Now, the reasons why, you know, that remains to be seen about

how honest she's being. Right. Investigators doubted Kathleen's story that she accidentally gave Kenneth too much morphine as a nurse. She would know the lethal dose. And Kenneth's blood samples showed he ingested far more than a lethal dose. So back to your point, she's a nurse, right? She's going to know how much morphine someone normally gets. And we said, you know, that he had, what was it, 25 times? Oh, yeah, the legal. The lethal amount of morphine in his system, that's not a mistake. The kids were divided on whether they believe. And, you know, the lethal amount. And, Kathleen, but they did confirm their parents had a rocky marriage, and towards the end, Kathleen was avoiding Kenneth. Instead of going home after work, she went to a local Walmart

to read a book because she just didn't want to see him. One of her sons confirmed she spoke to him about getting a divorce. But the kids also told the police they never saw any verbal or physical abuse from Kenneth. Well, if anybody was going to witness the... abuse, I would think it would be the kids, verbal or physical, or at least they would have heard their mom mention it at some point. Yeah, I agree with you. Now, is it possible for someone to hide their abusive side from their kids? I'm sure it is possible, but I don't know that it happens all that often. You know, I think someone who is explosive and abusive often often has a hard time controlling it. And sometimes it comes out no matter who's around. But it's possible.

On July 25th, 2011, Kathleen pleaded not guilty to murder. On August 2nd, Kathleen was indicted for a first degree murder by a Taylor County grand jury. In September, it was reported that Kathleen had been ordered to undergo a psychiatric exam to determine whether she was competent to go to trial, which was scheduled for May 2012. In April 2012, it was reported that Kathleen's confession could be thrown out. At an earlier hearing, the judge heard testimony from Sheriff's Deputy Brian Picard and Louisville Metro Detective Mark Bratcher. Kathleen had three separate conversations with the police. Before her arrest, her attorney believed two of them were illegal.

But the third interview between Kathleen, Deputy Sheriff Picard, and Taylor, County Sheriff Alan Newton was not. This conversation occurred after Kathleen's polygraph. The defense argued that Kathleen was asked to sign a consent form, but this did not imply she agreed to talk after the exam. Detective Bratcher testified that he administered the polygraph, and the consent form included the Miranda rights. Kathleen was asked if she had any questions, and she said she didn't.

She viewed the form for less than a minute, signed it, and then the exam started. After the polygraph, Kathleen was given a chance to explain her reactions to some of the questions. And we talked about it earlier. This was the point where Bratcher said it was her chance to tell the truth. And that was when she confessed to her involvement in her husband's death. She was aware of her Miranda rights and knew her admission would be reported. Deputy Sheriff Picard and Sheriff Newton watched Kathleen as she underwent the polygraph and spoke to her afterwards. Picard said he and Newton were given the consent form before they interviewed Kathleen.

She confirmed she signed the form, so he proceeded with the interview. This interview was recorded. Kathleen's defense asked Picard if he asked Kathleen to sign a Taylor County Sheriff's Office waiver. of Miranda rights form for the post-polygraph interview, which she had done for the previous interviews. Bacard said she was not asked to sign a form other than the polygraph consent. He added that Kathleen was not under arrest at this time.

So to me, Gibbs, this is a huge part of the case, right? The defense obviously wants her confessions thrown out. Of course. because that would change the whole ballgame, right? She confessed on multiple occasions to different people and law enforcement. But if the jury never hears about that, that's a game changer. It's a huge game changer. And it's going to be up to the judge to rule on the admissibility of the confessions.

You have this consent form, which includes the Miranda rights. she signed it. Now, it sounds like she didn't spend a whole lot of time reading it, but what does that mean? I mean, when you sign a document, you're kind of acknowledging that you read through it, right? It's why with important documents, you really should read through it. Don't just skim it and, you know, or sign it blindly. Kind of a critical thing to do. On April 23rd, 2012, the judge ruled that Kathleen's statements were admissible in court. That hurts the defense.

Oh, absolutely. It hurts her case. And you kind of wonder why some of these defendants plead guilty. They know they've confessed. But, you know, it's probably because there's a lot of situations like this. Defense attorneys probably advise clients. Hey, plead not guilty because I think we can get this thrown out. We've got this chance or that chance.

obviously if you plead guilty, your chances are nil. Right. So why not plead not guilty in hopes that you can get things tossed out? And that's what they did back in July of 2011. It took them all the way up to this time to get to this point, almost a year later. Kathleen's trial was delayed. And in June 2012, an attorney filed a complaint against Kathleen's employer on behalf of Greg Watt. Kenneth's son, the defendant.

were subsidiaries of Extendicare Homes Incorporated, including the Medco Center of Campbellsville and registered nurse Karen Moore, director of nursing at Medco. According to the complaint, on July 21st, 2011, an audit was performed at Medco that concluded morphine had not been properly destroyed at the facility.

Officials weren't able to properly account for morphine that had been delivered to Medcoe. Medco. The complaint alleged that Kathleen gave Kenneth the drugs that caused his death and obtained them while working at Medco. Medco was negligent in supervising Kathleen, which was a substantial factor in Kenneth's death. Medco failed to implement a record-keeping system for controlled drugs. They were negligent in how Kathleen was able to access morphine. Additionally, Medco was negligent. Medco was negligent in that its staff should have known that Kathleen was incompetent, careless, and or reckless. Extended Care Homes Incorporated was negligent in overseeing the operations and management

of its facility. Finally, Karen Moore failed to supervise Kathleen, which allowed her to access the morphine. Well, I agree with a lot of that. They should have had controls in place. They should have known what happened to that morphine. There should have been records. There should have been some type of supervising of the process. Sounds like there wasn't any. Yeah, I'm with you. I agree with some of this.

But what does it have to do with Kathleen making the decision to put the morphine in her husband's drink? And I would say very little. You know, should controls be in place? Yes, you and I both agree, we're very well aware of all the controls that are involved in different businesses. It's kind of part of what you and I did. But even some of the best control can only catch something after it has occurred. Well, that's true. So if she takes the morphine and gives it to him that night or the next day, Yeah, eventually they're going to figure out that this morphine wasn't destroyed. But could they have figured it out in time to stop her from putting it in Kenneth's drink and

essentially killing him? I don't know. But it has very little to do with her case, right? This is a separate complaint filed on behalf of Kenneth's son. And it doesn't surprise me, right? you see these types of complaints made all the time. Some of them very famous. The civil trial against O.J. Simpson,

there's been a lot of civil trials that have revolved around the family thinking that, you know, someone murdered their loved one. And maybe the person was not convicted in criminal court, but sometimes civilly it's a different matter. but this is not Kathleen, right, being tried civilly. This is the place she worked for, the management company of that place, and her direct supervisor. Well, that's what you do when you sue somebody, right?

You throw everybody up against the wall. Well, the more defendants you have, right, the greater the chance you have to be successful. And obviously, the more defendants you have with deep pockets. True. then the greater the chance you have to be compensated. There's no doubt about that. Kathleen's defense requested a change of venue due to pretrial publicity. The defense pointed out that local news outlets had covered the case and an internet search

for Kathleen's name revealed numerous stories about her pending case. I think you're going to find that a lot of times when you have a situation like this is a compelling case. This is an interesting case to people. Right. A wife of 37 years registered nurse steals drugs from her place of employment and gives them to her husband, but yet says she didn't want to kill him. People are going to want to know more about it. Yeah. It's going to peak their curiosity. A judge granted the change of venue and the trial was moved to Washington County. The murder trial started on July 30th, 2012. In opening statements, assistant Commonwealth's attorney Angela Cole told the jury that Kenneth Wise was a military veteran, a father and grandfather and a truck driver.

Cole noted that Kathleen intentionally murdered her husband. But Kathleen herself said she didn't know why she did it. The jury heard that a toxicologist would testify that Kenneth had almost 30 times the lethal dose of morphine in his blood. Kind of takes away from the story she told that she didn't want him to die. She was just putting some morphine in some water. To get some peace that night. Exactly. Yeah, 30 times the legal limit sounds almost unbelievable. You hear people getting pulled over. They're intoxicated.

They're twice the legal limit. That's really, really drunk, right? Twice the legal limit. 30 times the lethal dosage, there's no chance that Kenneth Wise was not going to die that night. And I find it hard to believe that a nurse in her position wouldn't understand that. Well, and now I think you're getting into the minds of the jurors. Because if you were a juror hearing this, that's what you're going to think, right? This lady's trained.

she's been a nurse for however many years and you're telling me that she wouldn't know that that's enough to kill her husband that's going to be tough to get passed for jurors the jury would also hear that an internal audit was performed at Kathleen's workplace which found that policies and procedures for the destruction of narcotics were not followed i get it that kind of falls in line with you know what the the civil complaint was about. But again, what does that have to do really with whether or not she killed her husband? Yeah, all it's saying is that it's where she obtained the drugs. Now, was there a chance that maybe she could have been stopped? Yeah, maybe. But it doesn't change the fact that she took the morphine home. She gave it to Kenneth and he died. Now, the defense argued

that Kenneth's death was a tragic accident. Defense attorney William, Butler told the jury that they would present evidence that the Wises had a difficult marriage and Kenneth was physically and emotionally abusive. Butler said per the Central Kentucky News Journal, he had a terrible, terrible temper. And I understand, you know, why they would go with that argument, right? That is what she said in some of her interviews with authority. Now, how are they going to prove that to the jury? Or do they have to? Do they just have to plant the seed? And was it true or was it not true? Taylor County Coroner Terry Dabney recounted the story that Kathleen told him when he responded to the death call, but the toxicology results changed everything.

Damny said, the morphine level was extremely high. I don't think personally that I have ever seen a morphine level that high. Wow. That doesn't surprise me at all. Yeah, since we know it was 30 times the lethal dose. Why would you ever see that? Regina Hornback, a regional nurse consultant, testified that a medco audit showed three residents received morphine from April to June 2011, but there were no logs to show the patients actually received the morphine. This morphine was supposed to be administered by Kathleen, and there was no record of her ever destroying it. Well, because he took it home. Yeah, the prosecution argued that Kathleen stole morphine over this three-month period,

which showed premeditation as if she had been stocking it up to ensure that Kenneth took a fatal dose. So this is interesting, right? This was not she left the place one night. and took it all with her. She took it little by little over a three-month period. And building it up. And built it up.

Yeah, absolutely. Which, again, goes against what she said, because if you just wanted a little bit of peace, why wouldn't you use what you took home? Give them a little bit. You know, have them doze off. Get your peace and quiet. But she could have had a little bit of peace three months before.

Yeah. But she waited until she had built her style. pile up over a three-month period. Detective Mark Bratcher testified about Kathleen's confession and spoke about the lack of motive saying she didn't really give any reason other than she felt bad about it. Now, she did say, right, in some of her talks that her husband was abusive, but she never came out and said that that's why she did what she did or she killed him because he was abusive. She said she wanted to get some peace that night.

Another toxicologist testified that a fatal dose of morphine falls between 200 and 2300 nanograms per milliliter. He was asked about the concept of post-mortem redistribution, where drugs are released back into the blood and can cause an artificial increase in drug levels. The toxicologist said that even if this had happened, the morphine would still fall in the blood. the fatal ring. Okay, I think at one point we said the fatal dose is 200. This guy's saying it's somewhere between 200 and 2300. Probably different factors, right? How much the individual ways or... Yeah, but that seems like a pretty big difference. It is a huge difference. But even at that number, 2,300, you'd still be twice. Yeah. More than twice the lethal dose. But the prosecution is saying it was 30 times more. The prosecution believed Kathleen was lying about her husband being abusive because there was no evidence to support her claims.

But they also couldn't find another motive. And that's tough for the prosecution, right? The prosecution wants to have a motive to give to the jury. Kathleen did this because, and here's why. Deputy Sheriff Brian Picard testified that he found no financial motive for Kathleen to kill her husband. and couldn't speak to her motive or her actions. So that tells me that, you know, he didn't have some big insurance policy or policies from which she was going to benefit.

He's not working. He's retired. Maybe she just didn't want him around anymore. Picard also testified that he asked Kenneth's family if he became angry easily and they said he didn't. So, and I think this is a big thing. And we've kind of touched on it maybe a little bit. These claims of, you know, him being physically and emotionally abusive, you would think that there would be someone either in the family, most likely in the family, or friends or something who would have a story about him going off at some point. Now, I did say it.

I think there are people who can keep that stuff hidden and do so purposefully and still be very abusive to their spouse or significant other. They just don't do it when anybody else is around. Yeah, they're very aware of their surroundings. Yes. But I also think it's tough for many people to not slip up around their kids. I mean, you think about how many years those kids spend in that. household. And they're not saying that their dad was this abusive guy. So what is the jury left to

believe? Yeah. Either they were really good at hiding it from everybody or she's making a few things up. The defense rested without calling any witnesses in closing arguments. Defense attorney William Butler emphasized that Kenneth's death was an accident and said that if Kathleen set out to kill her husband, she would have known routine drug testing would find the morphine, but she did not intend to kill him. And I do think that's a good point. You know, we said, how could a registered nurse not know that this amount of morphine was going to kill somebody? Well, how does she also not know that toxicology is going to show this huge amount of morphine

in his system? And it's going to be traced back to her. It's kind of come back to her. Well, maybe she thought if they believed it was a heart attack, they wouldn't run all these tests. Yeah, maybe. Because anything else doesn't seem to make sense. At the end of the day,

the jury found Kathleen guilty of murder, and they recommended a life sentence. The jury took just 20 minutes to deliberate and then only 10 minutes to recommend the sentence. That's really quick and not good for her. No. And whenever we do a case, Gives, we don't have every bit of evidence.

We don't have everything that went on in the trial to tell listeners. But I think what this shows you is that the jury was so convinced of her guilt that they didn't need that long to deliberate. And they didn't need a long time at all to recommend that she get a life sentence. I don't think they were torn on this one. No, I think they all knew where they were going with this before they even got to the jury room. It does kind of sound like it. After the jury's recommendation,

a state probation and parole officer testified that Kathleen would be eligible to appear before a parole board. After serving 20 years, she would be 81 years old at that point. After the verdict, William Butler said Kathleen loved her husband. and just wanted peace from his screaming and yelling. Kathleen was formally sentenced to life in prison. On September 7, 2012, she filed an appeal later that month.

On December 19, 2013, the Kentucky Supreme Court upheld Kathleen's sentence, finding that she voluntarily spoke with the police and acknowledged putting the drug in her husband's drinking water, which made her statements admissible at trial. The consent form she signed contained her Miranda rights. But one justice descendant arguing that Kathleen's answers to the polygraph should have been admissible, but not the statements she made to detectives in subsequent questioning because the form was not clear. So that's interesting because, you know, like we said, this was a pretty pivotal decision in the original trial that the judge,

ruled these statements admissible. Then you have the court, except for one justice, finding that they were because she voluntarily spoke with the police. What that made me question was that what would have happened if she had not, you know, kind of confessed so quickly, so easily? What if she had never confessed? Would this have been a much? much harder trial, much tougher to get a conviction.

Absolutely. I believe it would have been. Yeah, I do too because I always think that the defendant's own words, especially if they're saying, you know, yeah, I did this. I put this in his drink. That goes a long way with the jury. But if you don't have any of that, then what you have is the prosecution putting forth a theory.

And then the jury has to figure out if they agree or disagree. That might be a little tougher when you're putting that theory up against a woman that's been married to somebody for 37 years, never had any problems in their relationship. And now you're going to try to say that she killed him. It's a tougher go. Well, because if she doesn't admit to putting the morphine in there, she probably doesn't bring up or try to put forth that he was. physically and emotionally abusive. Yeah. No reason to.

And we already said the police couldn't find any financial motive. So you're, you're going to be left with this is what we think happened. But what was the reason? Why did she do it? And we still don't really know that. Kathleen Hibbard-Wise passed away on May 4th, 2020. According to an obituary published in Columbia magazine, she was 69 years old. As we wrap this one up, Gibbs,

Kathleen never admitted to intentionally murdering her husband, and she maintained that his death was an accident, but investigators believed that with her knowledge of drug dosages, she would have known she was going to kill him. When she poured such a large amount into his water, she also claimed that her husband was abusive towards her, but prosecutors thought this was just another accident, aspect of her elaborate story. And obviously the jury believed all this as well. It had to have been a

big part of their decision making process. Yeah. There's no way that this was an accident. As a registered nurse, you would have known that putting that amount of morphine into his drink was going to kill him. And if you really just wanted some peace and quiet from the yelling, you would have known to use a lesser amount to try to get what you were trying to achieve there. But like they said, she was stockpiling. Yeah, and I'm sure they hammered that home, right? This was premeditated. This wasn't, she just came home one night with X amount of morphine. She was systematically bringing the morphine home over a three month period. Why? To have enough, which turned out to be probably way more than enough to kill her husband.

But, you know, the thing that really interested me about this case was that, you know, in most cases where, let's say a wife kills her husband or the other way around, husband kills a wife. There turns out to be a very clear motive. It's either money or they want to be with someone else or, you know, something like that. But here's a case where you really can't point to something and say, Kathleen Wise benefited from the death of her husband in this way. Now, if he was physically and emotionally abusive towards her, then maybe that could explain it. She was tired of it. She wanted to be rid of him,

but she didn't want to go through a divorce and all that. But nobody backed. that story up. No. So you're kind of left with what seems to be a motiveless crime other than maybe what you said, which was she just didn't want to be with this guy anymore. They didn't love each other. Maybe, you know, didn't want to go through the hassle of a divorce and splitting assets and all of that. She just wanted it to be over. Yeah, maybe. But that's it for our episode on Kathleen Wise. We've got some voicemails. You want to check those out? Yes, sir. Hi, Mike and Gibby. This is Amber calling from Maryland, and I'm a new listener.

I just listened to Satomo, My Asaki case, and I'm kind of all over the math listening to you guys. I'm not listening from the newest oldest or oldest of the newest. I'm just like I picked 2022 and decided I would listen to that year. But there was a funny part when you guys were talking about. talking about fetuses. I forgot the technical word you used, you know, the parapheria. And Giphy brought up something about knives, and you have to have something to say. And, you know, I can't remember exactly what his response was, but he said that came out wrong.

And then it broke to an act for better health. And so, better health. And so I thought that was really funny. just the timing of it. I know you guys did have anything to do with that placement, but it was pretty funny. Anyway, I really enjoy your podcast. I typically have only listened to female podcasters,

and so I'm glad I found you guys just for, like, the different perspective and approach. I love your dry humor and your chemistry with one another, and how well you cover the cases. So thank you so much for what you do. keep your own time picking and keep your head on the clothes. Take care. All right. Love it. Thank you so much for the voicemail. Yeah, you know, the ads are kind of a difficult thing sometimes.

Depending on the case, you know, they can land in an awkward position sometimes. And we've heard that a few times. Yeah. It does happen. Yeah. Hey, Mike and Gibby. This is Sophia. I'm calling from Long Island. I just wanted to reach out and just say how much I enjoy your podcast. I listen to it every day. I try to do two or three episodes at a time.

And I can't just say how much I enjoy your bickering back and forth. I love it. It keeps my mind going. And I just wanted to let you guys know that and that I appreciate everything that you guys do. And have a great day and keep your own time picking. Thank you. Take care. All right. Great voicemail.

Appreciate it. You know, I often think Gibbs, it's one of the reasons why our friendship has endured or lasted as long as it had. All your bickering? We have, you know, the ribbing and the bickering and it's kind of, it's fun for us. You know, we don't do it all the time when we're not on the podcast, but we do it quite a bit in real life, too. It is why I keep my head on a swivel. You got to. You got to. Well, we have no mailbag.

So that is it for another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.