True Crime All The Time - Kelly Ellard and Warren Glowatski

Episode Date: March 11, 2024

In November 1997, 14-year-old Reena Virk was a victim of severe bullying in Canada. She was severely beaten by a group of teens who disliked her because they thought she was spreading rumors about them and trying to steal their boyfriends. After this initial beating, Reena was followed by two of the teens who continued to beat her, and then she was drowned.Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the brutal beating and murder of Reena Virk. Many teens were charged and convicted of the beating of Reena. Two teens, Kelly Ellard and Warren Glowatski, were charged with her murder. A series of legal battles and trials that stretched on for years followed. Kelly and Warren pointed the finger at each other. But the majority of the teens said that just one of them bragged about actually committing the murder and even said they felt joy.You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

everyone and welcome to episode 374 of the true crime all the time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime Mike Gibson. Give me, how are you? Hey, I'm doing okay. How about you? I'm doing great. I've had a really good week. I was talking about it on Patreon. I got out more this week than I normally do. It was my youngest birthday. Yeah. So we headed down there to go to dinner with her and my oldest. And then I went to a local high school for a leadership series and they had a really big turnout and the kids asked great questions and they were into true crime and podcasting so it was really cool. Did you go in there like the dad from Talakadaga, Talga, Taladaiga Nights?

No, I did not. Well, that was funny. The good thing is, you know, you're here. Like the sun didn't like make you melt or whatever does the vampires. It's okay to get out every now and then. Exactly. Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shoutouts. We had Andy Diamond.

Hey, Andy. Farronin. What's going on, Farah? Depressed Goth. Oh, hey, goth. Stevie Ups. What's going on, Stevie? Or Stevie UPS.

It could be. Yeah, it could be. Latiana Lily White. Oh, thanks, Latiana. Brenda Pavey. What's going on, Brenda? Jody R. Hey, Jody, Jody.

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Hey, Ashley. Charlotte Upton. What's going on, Upton? Mamie M. Hey, Mamie. And Ryan White Cotton jumped out at our highest level. Well, thank you, White Cotton. So we, yeah, so we appreciate that new support.

And then if we go back into the vault, this week, we selected Rhonda Fritz. Hey, Rhonda. So appreciate the new support, the continued support. We also had a Patreon merch winner. And that was Cheryl and Reed. Well, congratulations, Cheryl. Yeah, for February. So Gibbs, we have an episode out right now on Unsolved where we're talking about Nanette Crentle.

And this is a very interesting episode. She was found inside her home after a fire. But they determined that she didn't die from the fire. Some foul play. Yeah. She was shot in the head. So we get into all the details. All right, buddy, are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time?

I am ready. We are talking about Kelly Ellard and. Warren Glawatsky and the murder of 14-year-old Rina Verk. Rina was a victim of severe bullying. It's a pretty infamous case. Yes. From Canada. In November 1997, she was badly beaten by a group of teens who disliked her.

Two members of the group, Kelly and Warren, followed Rina after the attack and murdered her. And we have done a number of cases. I don't want to say like this, but that have similar elements. You know, where you're talking about young teenagers murdering another teenager, you know, grouping up and and not liking someone for whatever reason, the reasons sometimes vary, but the bullying is similar. And it leading to this group think that kind of does. love tales into murder. And we never understand it. No, it's always disturbs me. You know,

everything disturbs me. This just really pulls at me for some reason. I just can't figure it out. Like, why? Why? I think part of the reason is all of us at one point were, you know, 14, 15, 16 years old. Yeah. So you think back to that time in your life. Were there people you didn't like? Obviously, there were. Did you get into fights, scraps? Yeah. Sure. Did you ever sit around with your friends and say, you know what? We should kill this person. No. And so it's just, you know, most of us can't understand how the group dynamic can get to the point where, you know, it leads to something like this.

And you would just think that out of the group, at least somebody in that group would like, the bulb would go off, right? The light bulb goes ding and they go, oh, yeah, we probably shouldn't be doing this. Hey guys, let's, uh... Well, and sometimes it does, but that just means maybe they remove themselves. And it doesn't stop the entire thing. Rina Verk was born on March 10th, 1983 in British Columbia, Canada. She lived in View Royal, a middle class suburb, Victoria. Rina's mother, Sumin, was born in Canada.

And her father, Manget, immigrated from India. Rina sometimes felt like an outsider in her community because of her family's religious beliefs. Her parents were Jehovah's Witnesses. And Rina rebelled against the strict rules. Her parents imposed on her. Most kids do rebel against strict parenting in one way or the other. It's kind of in a kid's nature to rebel. Sure.

It's kind of part of being a kid. That's pretty much your whole childhood right there, rebelling. In 1996, Rina falsely accused her father of sexually assaulting her. She was removed from her parents' home and placed in her grandparents' care. She was eventually transferred to a foster home. You know, that's got to be hard to recover from, to be accused falsely of something. Well, not just something of sexually assaulting your own daughter. Yeah.

That's got to be very, very rough. because not only are you going to have to deal with people thinking you did that, but now you've also kind of lost your daughter. Yeah. And even when it would come out that it was false, you know, everybody sees the first headline. Sure. A lot of times they don't see the fallup headline where it says, oh, by the way, what was said in the first headline wasn't true.

And just forget about that. Or the conversation over the fence, right? is did you hear what so-and-so did? There might not be a follow-up conversation that says, oh, by the way, it turns out he didn't do that. Exactly. So, you know, that would be rough. Over the next few months, Rina moved between her parents' home, foster care, and

youth shelters in his 2008 book, Rina, a father story. Menjit wrote, I now believe Rina manipulated social workers and family alike. It was killing me that no one believed us and everyone seemed to accept Rina's stories. Now, this is a very tough situation because what do we always talk about? It's pretty tough not to believe someone when they come forward and say, I was sexually assaulted. Yeah. You don't want to be that person who doesn't believe that. No, I don't think you can discount it.

You know, I think you have to hear it to do what you can to vet it. but that could be difficult, I would think. To prove? Yeah. Absolutely. So no doubt there was trouble at home, but in addition to that, Rina was also bullied by her peers. Her friend said she struggled with self-esteem issues due to her weight.

At one point, Reno was living in a group home with other teens and she wanted to be accepted by them. Well, we all want that, right? Yeah. Who doesn't want to be accepted? That's kind of a universal. thing. Yeah. And I think it's even more universal when you're of that age. You crave it. You need it. You do. In late 1997, Rina was accused of spreading rumors about another girl and trying to steal that girl's boyfriend.

Rina was murdered on November 14th, 1997. That night, she joined a group of teenagers who were gathering on a field behind Shoreline School in View Royal. The police broke up the gathering. So the group moved to a spot under the Craigflower Bridge and Sandwich. We've all been there, right? Put something together. Everybody's going to meet up someplace. Well, it gets broken up. Sure. And so either the whole group moves somewhere else or more likely kind of splinters and you have all these different groups going other places. But what happened was a fight broke out under the bridge. And the girl who believed Reno was spreading rumors. about her, put out a cigarette on Rina's forehead. Okay.

Not good? No, I'm sure that is extremely painful. Rina was then swarmed by a group of seven teens, most of them girls and badly beaten. The teens punched and kicked her. Rina cried out, I'm sorry, and laid on the ground. Some of the teens who were present left, but some watched the assault. once it was over, Reno was able to get up and started walking across the bridge to get away. So, you know, this kind of goes back to what you were talking about.

You know, who's going to make that decision that this is not right. I don't want to be a part of this. I don't want anything to do with it. Well, it sounds like some of the teams who were there did. They didn't participate. They left. Some didn't participate. but they watched.

Yeah, we know there's a lot of people that like to watch things happening. And then others, as we'll talk about, participated. But it sounds like at this point, you know, obviously what happened wasn't good, but Reno was alive. Sure, she was hurt, but she was, you know, getting away from this situation.

Yeah. And most likely, you know, she would have recovered. 15-year-old Kelly Ellard and 16-year-old Warren, Glawotsky followed Rina and they continued beating her. They both punched and kicked her. Kelly smashed Rina's head into a tree, which caused her to lose consciousness. Kelly then dragged her to the nearby Gorge waterway.

She held Rina's head under the water until she drowned. I just can't get my head wrapped around that, you know? Yeah, two teenagers, 15 and 16 years old. And it sounds like, you know, from that part, the 15-year-old Kelly, she was at least at the end doing the most of the damage. Yeah. And ultimately ended up killing. How much anger must be festered up inside you? Over what, though?

Yeah. I mean, that you have to go to this extreme. Like, not that it's okay, but what happened to the days of, you know, if you have a little scrap, you fight, you win or lose? draw, whatever, and you walk away. You know, these kids taking it to this next level, I just, it's tough. It's tough. Well, and to your point, I think one of the problems I have here is that it sounds like they had already inflicted quite a bit of damage on Reno.

But even that wasn't good enough for them. Right. They couldn't just leave it at that. They had to follow her, continue to beat her. and then, you know, ultimately hold her head under water, the two teens left Rina's body and went home. Rina's parents reported her missing. Warren Glawotsky was arrested on November 21st, 1997, after an officer overheard his admission, according to the CBC.

Police divers found Rina's body in a shallow tidal pool on November 22nd, 1997. she was found just about a kilometer from where she was beaten. So in all, 17 girls were charged for their role in the assault and murder, including Kelly Ellard. Six of them were not identified because they're protected by the Youth Criminal Justice Act. Both Warren and Kelly were charged with second degree murder. And a judge ruled that they would be tried in adult court. And I know that's always.

controversial. Yeah. This kind of idea that a 15, 16 year old would be tried as an adult. And I'm sure it's never an easy decision for a judge to make. But when you have two teens, 15, 16, that decide to act like an adult by doing an adult crime in, in such a heinous way. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure it played a big factor into the judge. making that determination. And you would think at that age, they should have known better. Known that what they were doing was wrong. Yeah.

Yeah. I get you. According to the Canadian encyclopedia, Warren's mother was an alcoholic and was absent for most of his life. At the time of the murder, he was living at a friend's house because his father moved to California without taking him with him. Okay. Doesn't sound like he had the greatest childhood.

No, definitely not leave with the beaver. No, I know. It obviously is not that. Your mom's not around for most of your life. Your dad decides to move to California and says, you know what? I'm going without you. I'm not even taking you with me. Good luck to you.

Kelly came from a more stable home environment and had family support. The 16s who were charged as juveniles were convicted and sentenced in 1998. the first court proceedings occurred on February 9th of that year. Three teen girls pleaded guilty to assault, causing bodily harm. Days later, three more teen girls went to trial for aggravated assault and were convicted of a lesser charge of assault causing bodily harm. They received sentences ranging from 60 days to one year in jail. Well, not knowing what their participation level was.

but it sounds like maybe it was fair. Yeah. I mean, I'm not jumping up and down here and saying, oh my gosh, they, you know, they got off Scott free because,

number one, we don't know their names. We don't, there's not a lot of detail out there about them because of the disclosure laws in Canada. But if you spend a year in jail, okay, that means you probably,

one of them probably, participated more than the others. Right. And that's no joke. As a teenager, to spend a year in jail. Yeah, as a juvenile to spend a year, hopefully it made you see the light and change your attitude. Do you ever get an attitude adjustment by your parents when you were younger?

I've had a number of attitude adjustments. Not for a very, very long time. Not since I haven't had any as an adult that I can remember. I'd like to say I haven't given any, but that would be a lie. Yeah, if you've gotten it, it'd be a little strange. Giving it, that's different. Yeah, unfortunately. Yeah, my stepfather was kind of a no-nonsense kind of guy.

Yeah. And he didn't put up with, let's say, any tomfoolery. Yeah. And he wasn't afraid to adjust your attitude. Adjust an attitude when it was needed. But, you know, ultimately it was really good for me. Yeah. Now, I didn't like it then, but looking back, you know, it kind of made me part of who I am. It molded you. Yeah, it did. So we talk about Warren. Warren, Glawotsky's murder trial started on April 12th, 1999. Warren was a juvenile at the time of the murder. You know, we said he was 16 years old. Some sources said he was 17. There was a lot of inconsistency around that. But he was definitely a juvenile. Before trial, the judge ruled against a state.

publication ban, which I think is very normal in cases involving juveniles, especially in Canada. You know, they, they're very quick to not allow information out. Yeah, they like the shield. Much more so than, than here in the U.S. But even in the United States, you might not see something about a juvenile. Both the prosecution and the defense wanted a publication ban for Warren's trial because they were worried it would influence Kelly's upcoming truck. I didn't think about it that way from the prosecutor side.

Yeah. And it's interesting to think about it in that way. We're so used to getting information just shoved at left and right. I don't know how in some of these big trials, someone can go on the jury and say that they've never heard about it. Pretty tough nowadays. I think. but the amount of news that is circling around nonstop.

The public didn't know many details, though by this point, interviews with some of the teens involved were published in an American magazine, but the article was not distributed in British Columbia. On May 3rd, Warren Glouatsky testified in his own defense and admitted that he participated in the beating, but insisted that he did not kill rena. Well, why would he admit that he killed her at this point? He's going to trial. He doesn't want to admit that he did anything. And from what we know so far, what we've told, he wasn't the one who held Rina underwater and drowned her. That was Kelly. Warren testified

that Rina was sworn by a group of girls while they were hanging out under a bridge. He claimed this was the first time he'd ever seen, Rina. He joined the group and kicked her in the head. He couldn't explain why he did it or why he and Kelly followed her after the attack. He testified that they caught up to Rina in a dark area of a park. He and Kelly punched and kicked her and grabbed her hair and hit her head against a tree which stunned her. Warren grabbed her by one leg and dragged her down to the water. He testified that he told Kelly to leave Rina alone.

When she did not, he left and stopped to vomit as he went home. Warren said he should have done more to stop the beating. Should have done more to stop? Didn't he do enough? As a participant? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I understand what he's saying.

He's not incorrect. But it's kind of hollow. when you say that after admitting that, you know, you did all of these really brutal things. Yeah, I mean, you just bounced her head off a tree, then grabbed her and dragged her down to the river's edge. Kicked her in the head at one point. But yeah, he's not wrong. He should have done more to stop the beating. But that seems like something a person would say if they were just a bystander.

and didn't participate in the beating in any way. And obviously, that wasn't him. Prosecutors told the court that Warren joked about Reno with his friends and later told people he played a role in the murder. They argued he was making up a story to cover up his role in the murder. Well, we know some kids, some people in general, they like to brag about the bad things they do or have done. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, does it seem like, you know, a 16-year-old would even be more likely? They're around their friends all day at school. You know word of this has gotten around. It's going to fly around the school. And so people are going to be talking about it. And he's bragging about his role in it. Is this the kind of stuff you really want to be known for? No.

I don't think so. But, you know, maybe he thought it makes me tougher. Right. Or I get some cool points. Yeah. We don't know, you know, what's going on in the minds of these, of these kids. But I can see a pretty tough role for the courts, right? What's true, what's not true, you know, what parts of Warren's story or real? What's he fabricating or what's he omitting about his role? On May 13th, 1999, in the middle of Warren's story, or real, what's he fabricating? Or what's he omitting about his role? On May 13th, 1999, in the middle of Warren's, trial. The Supreme Court of Canada refused to hear an appeal by Kelly Ellard's lawyer to have her case tried in youth court. And you know they had to have been pushing for that very hard. Oh, absolutely. Big difference. Oh, yeah. Warren Glootsky was convicted of second degree murder on June 2nd, 1999. On June 18th, he was sentenced to life in prison with no chance of parole for seven years. the judge felt that he would have a better chance of participating in prison programs and getting an education at a federal institution than a youth facility.

You know, you get a life sentence here in the States with a parole term. I don't think you're going to find it at seven. No, I don't think I've ever heard of a life sentence with no chance of parole for seven years here in the United States. it's often a much longer period of time. But we know Canada and the U.S. differ in a lot of ways, especially in the judicial system. I did think it was interesting that,

you know, the judge said, I think you'll get a better education at the big boy prison. Yeah. And I'm sure Warren was like, you know what, I'll take my chances at the youth facility.

Yeah, please. Let me go to the youth place. Yeah. But he didn't have a choice. Kelly Ellard's trial started on March 9th. 2000. Prosecutors portrayed Kelly as the most aggressive out of the group while the defense argued she was a victim of a conspiracy by a group of girls who wanted to protect themselves. The prosecution told the jury they would hear from witnesses who would testify that Kelly talked about

how she held Rina's head underwater and drowned her and that she seemed happy and proud of what she did. I'm sure that won't play well in the court. No, absolutely not. I mean, it's one thing to do the act. And then it's a separate thing to then brag about it and be happy about it and be proud about it. Yeah. Well, that just adds an extra layer on top of the evil act. Yeah.

I think it does. But you can see what the defense is going to try to do. Like, Kelly didn't do all of this. there's a bunch of other girls who are trying to, you know, cover their, their behines and they're, they're laying it all on Kelly. That's what the defense is going to argue. One unidentified girl testified that a group of 18s swarmed Rina under the bridge. One girl put out her cigarette on Rina's forehead and Rina was kicked and punched until the witness and another friend yelled at everyone to stop. the witness admitted to kicking Rina twice. She testified that her friends were angry with Rina for lying about boyfriends and sex,

according to CBC. So I think this goes back to what we said. Spreading rumors was kind of an underlying factor, stealing boyfriends, you know, reasons behind why some of these girls were upset with her. That's what it was, was talked about. At least when I went to high school, most of the fights were over either a girl or if the girls were fighting, it was over a boy, a boy, you know. Sometimes they got some pretty dirty fight going on there. Well, because it's jealousy. Yeah. And it's the reason why we cover

murders. I mean, how many murders happen over jealousy? Yeah, a lot. The witness admitted that after the beating. She and a friend stole items from Rina's purse. She testified that Kelly called her the following day and described the murder. So, you know, I mean, it's tough as a defendant to have witnesses like this who not only are putting themselves at the scene, but they're also admitting to a role in what happened. But at the same time, they're saying, but Kelly was the murderer. I do like the fact that the witness added in, but you know what? I told everyone to stop. Yeah.

So, hey, we got to stop this. Let's move it on now. Whether it's true or not, that might be true. She may have done that or that might be a way to soften her look a little after admitting to, you know, kicking Rina twice and taking stuff out of her purse. Witness Lorne Lloyd Walters saw the beating and saw Kelly drag Rina. down some stairs, he saw her prop Rina up against a rock wall and punch her in the face repeatedly. When he asked her a few days later what happened to Rina, Kelly said per CBC, I finished her off.

Kelly sounds brutal. Yeah. And this was a very brutal incident. Even before the murder. You think about being held up against a rock wall and punched in the face repeatedly. And I think you're absolutely right. This was a very brutal 15 year old girl. Yeah, with a lot of anger. And then, you know, when somebody tells you, I finished someone off. Well, how are you going to take that?

The only way that you can, I think, great. You finished her off. In this context, I killed her. Especially, you know, later when you find out what happened to her, you're like, wow, she killed her. She killed her. Kelly's stepmother testified that she came home at 11 p.m. on the night of the murder, changed clothes and came back out to say good night. She didn't seem drunk or flustered. She asked Kelly what she did that night.

And Kelly said she hung out with friends. And this kind of blew me away because I'm thinking, how do you kind of switch that off? Right. This is a girl who held another girl up against the wall, punched her face, repeatedly kicked her in the head, ultimately drowned her, and then goes home and just says, you know, hey, everything's great. I hung out with some friends. No problem. Doesn't seem rattled at all. Rattled. How? You and I are rattled just talking about it. Yeah. It's, it's alarming. Another witness testified that she met Warren Glowalski in a youth detention center. She claimed he

offered her $3,000 to pin the crime on Kelly, but she refused. The prosecution asked where he would have gotten the money. She said Warren told her he was in a gang and they would provide the money. An 18-year-old girl who was earlier convicted of beating Rina testified that she saw Kelly punch Rina and yank her hair. She also saw Kelly and Warren cross the bridge after the attack. Kelly later called her and told her what she did. Kelly was calm as she described the attack and even seemed happy and

crowd again that comes back around calm happy proud not adjectives that you would no think of someone as being after they had viciously beaten and and murdered someone no regret no remorse Kelly got on the stand and testified that she tried to stop other girls from continuing the attack she claimed she asked rena if she was all right now she had admitted to punching Rina, but maintained that she didn't kill her. She said she had no reason to be angry with Rina because she had just met her. Kelly testified that she was standing under the bridge. When a fight broke out, she heard a gasp and saw Rina coming at her friend.

She punched Rina in the jaw, and Rina was swarmed seconds later. Kelly stopped hitting her when someone yelled that she'd had enough. So both Warren and Kelly. testified that they didn't know Rina at all. Yeah. Like this was the first time they had even met her. Well, if you don't know the person, why are you participating in this brutal beating? Well, I think that's where the differences and testimony come in, right?

So Kelly says, yeah, I hit her, but it was because she came after one of my friends. So that's how, you know, she's kind of crafting the narrative of her involvement. kind of justifying it. Almost like she was protecting. Yeah. Her friend. And then she stopped when someone yelled that was enough. Kelly claimed that the last time she saw Rina was when she was struggling to walk across a bridge.

She allegedly saw three other people following her. Well, what else is she going to say? She is not going to say, yes, I followed her. Yes, I held her head underwater until she was dead. Very few defendants. make those kind of incriminating statements. What they do is more like admit parts of what they did. Yeah.

And then maybe put a little something in there that softens even the lesser parts and totally omit the really, really bad parts. Yeah, they want to try to deflect those parts. The prosecutor asked Kelly to explain why so many people said it was her who crossed the bridge. Kelly responded, I don't know. So again, I think if you're the jury, if you're the court, you have to either believe Kelly who's saying she never even crossed the bridge after Rina or you believe all these other people who have already been convicted and are saying we saw Kelly cross the bridge.

And some people are saying that she even called after the fact and told them exactly what happened. On March 31st, 2000, Kelly Ellard was convicted of second degree murder. On April 21st, she was sentenced to life in prison with no chance of parole for five years. And I thought that was pretty interesting. Yeah, she got two years less on the parole possibility. Now, she was a year or two years. younger than Warren, but from all the evidence that seems to have come out, she was the one who in the end actually took Rina's life. Yeah. But it's a different court. It's a different judge.

So different outcome. Different outcome. On November 15, 2000, Rina's parents sued the teens who were charged with attacking her, the government of British Columbia and other defendants Menjit Virk said about the lawsuit as quoted by CBC, society doesn't make people take responsibility for their actions. This is one way to make them responsible. And I think a lot of people look at these lawsuits as, well, you know, they're after money. And some people are. But in a way, he is right.

What other recourse does he have to try to hold people accountable other than going after their money. Yeah, I agree with them. On November 29th, 2001, the British Columbia Court of Appeal rejected Warren Glootsky's petition. The court found that he actively participated in the murder. In a surprising decision, the BC Court of Appeal ordered the new trial for Kelly Ellard on February 4, 2003. The court found that the prosecution failed to give her a fair trial by asking her 18 times, why witnesses would give false testimony against her. Trying to figure out why that would result in an unfair trial? Yeah.

Does seem like a lot of times, but you're right. I'm not sure why that would mean the trial wasn't fair. Kelly lived in a halfway house while she awaited trial on March 4th, 2004. Her bail was revoked after she was charged with assault causing bodily harm. Kelly and another woman were drinking at a park and invited a 58-year-old woman to join them. When they couldn't find their cell phone, they accused the woman of stealing it. They punched her in the face until she broke free and called 911. Well, this is not going to help your current trial situation.

No, not at all. And how many times have you and I talked about this? If you're given even the hint of a second chance, which she has been, she's getting a new trial. Don't you think you would be on your very best behavior? Absolutely. You don't go out drinking at the park and then punch a woman in the face because you think she took your cell phone. Yeah.

You think that's not going to come up at trial? Now there's just new ammunition. Absolutely it is. Kelly's second trial started on June 14th, 2004. Her defense suggested that Warren was the one. who killed Rina, but several witnesses testified that Kelly admitted to the murder. And they did in the first trial as well. One unidentified young woman testified that she knew Kelly participated in the initial beating.

The next day Kelly told her she followed Rina, smashed her head into a tree, dragged her to the water, and held her down until she stopped moving. A week later, she said she was happy about what she did. So that has come up a number of times from different people. So what does that mean? Either she really told a number of people this same thing or there's a huge conspiracy. Exactly. Where all these people got together and said, we're all going to say this about Kelly.

Yeah, let's take Kelly down. The court heard a recording of a deceased witness who testified that she heard Kelly say she was going after Rina. and saw her follow her across the bridge. Kelly told this girl, she broke Rina's arms and legs before she killed her. According to CBC, the witness claim, Kelly said, I felt I had to go back and finish everything. Otherwise, she would rat everyone out.

And we've heard that in similar cases, that they felt like they had to finish off what they started because they worried that the victim would go to the police. And I do think that happens a lot. 20-year-old Laura Taylor testified that she was an acquaintance of Kelly. On the night of the murder, Laura ran into some teenagers who bragged about beating Rina earlier in the evening. People were also discussing what happened at school on Monday. She was about a foot away from Kelly when she heard her tell another person.

She and Warren Glowatsky went back to attack Rina. She said, she stomped on Rina. his face and used her foot to hold her underwater while she smoked. Now, obviously, you know, some of these people are 20 years old, but it's because it's taken so long, right, to get to this point. Back then, they were probably 15 or 16. Look, it could be a big conspiracy against Kelly, but at this point, you know, these individuals are, like you said, 20 years old. Why would they lie on the stand? They're going to say what they heard. I just don't see why. I just don't see why. You Why would they put themselves at jeopardy by making something up?

No, I get that. And then you also have the fact that some of these girls were already convicted. By this time had already served their time. What would be their reasoning for needing to lie? 20-year-old Candice Tanner testified that she ran into Kelly on the evening of the murder and asked her why she was wet. Kelly said she'd been in the water. and Candice asked her what. As quoted by CBC, Kelly said she was in the water and didn't come back up.

Witness Jodine Rogers testified that Kelly joked about forgetting to take her foot off Rina's head while she held her underwater for two to three minutes. Witness Shandell Naismith testified that Kelly took her to the crime scene five days after the attack when Rina was still considered a missing person and described what she did in detail. So, I mean, I think you have to look at all of this. This is not one or two individuals. Right. This is a lot of different people who are saying, she told me what she did. We saw her cross the bridge. She described, you know, all these different details. So she was wet. She was wet. So again, all, either all of these people conspired together or these things really happened. And what is most

likely to be believed. I mean, that's the big question, right? For a court, a jury. At this trial, Warren Glowatsky testified that he watched Kelly drown Rina. At her trial in 2000, he testified that he left before the drowning after he told Kelly to leave Rina alone. And this is a problem, right? Changing testimony, changing statements. You know, it's something that Kelly's defense team is going to jump on, and they did. Especially that it's coming from Warren, right? The other person implicated in this homicide. And deflect from, you know, it being him.

Kelly's defense attorney noted that Warren had previously lied in police statements and under oath. Warren explained that at the time, he would have said anything to stay out of jail, but insisted he was telling the truth now. But for me, that doesn't make sense. Like, why would you now say? say you saw her holding the head underneath water, but years previously you said you just walked away.

Wouldn't it help your case if you would have said that in the beginning? Well, maybe his thinking was that it would be worse for him if he admitted to even being there at the time of the murder. And I could see some validity in that. I also believe that it is true, right? Most people will say just about anything. to avoid jail. I agree.

Now, does it mean he's telling the truth now? No. And you can see why the defense would really point it out and try to undermine him. A pathologist testified that Rina's cause of death was drowning. But she most likely would not have survived. Her head injuries. Rina had an imprint of a running shoe on her head consistent with stomping or, you know, some kind of kick, there were pebbles in her throat consistent with someone drowning face down

in shallow water. And this is horrible to talk about. It's horrible to think about. It really is. What this 14 year old girl went through that night. Imagine being ganged up on having a cigarette put out on you being helpless while you're stomped, kicked, punched. And then, almost as if you're trying to recover from that initial beating, two people catch up to you and there's another beating. This time maybe even more severe. There's more kicking. There's more punching.

And then you're ultimately held underwater until you can't breathe anymore. The pathologist testified that Rina could have sustained such severe injuries during the initial beating and then walked across the bridge. At some point, though, she would have been unconscious or in so much pain that she wouldn't have been able to move. And that's why they had to drag her down to the water. I think that's what, you know, this person is getting at. On July 6th, Kelly admitted to punching Rina, but said she did so because she thought

Rina was going to hurt one of her friends. And this is the same thing she said in the first trial. And also, again, she said. said she never crossed the bridge, according to CBC. And that's very important, right, for her to say, I never crossed the bridge. Because if she doesn't cross the bridge, then how can she be the killer? Right. She can't be at the murder site.

Right. She said, she said at a bus stop and saw Rina cross the bridge, Warren showed up 10 minutes later and appeared agitated. He said he and two other girls followed Rina and beat her. He left while the girls were still fighting with her in the water. Well, if that's the case, Widewood, Kelly, brag about being over there on the other side of the bridge, beating her and then eventually killing her to people the next day and the next week.

Because now she's fighting for her life. Yeah. You're going to pull out all the stops. You're going to say whatever you have to say. You have to put up a fight, right? You have to put up a defense. The prosecutor says, suggested that Kelly helped with the plan to lure Rina under the bridge to settle a score between

Rina and two other girls. Kelly became frustrated during cross-examination and said, I am not a monster. At one point, Kelly said, is reported by CBC, I'm obviously going to be convicted. You've got what you want. My life is ruined. Well, if you did what everyone believes you did. Number one, you are a monster. Absolutely. And number two, your life is going to be ruined. I just think it's probably a bad choice to admit the fact that you're probably going to be, that you're obviously going to be convicted while the trial is still going on. Yeah. Probably not the best course of action. You kind of like saying, hey, it's a, I know you're going to do it. Just to go ahead and do it. The jury began deliberations on July 14th, 2004. On July 18th, the judge declared a mistrial. After the jury. jury announced they were deadlocked. I'm surprised.

Yeah. Don't have all the details, but you'd love to have been in that jury room just to find out what they were having a problem with. Now, I get it, there were a bunch of different stories told. But I think by and large, most of the stories, most of the testimony was against Kelly Ellard. prosecutors intended to put her on trial a third time. I wonder what the success ratio is when you go to your third trial.

Does it benefit the defendant more or the prosecution more? That's a great question. And I would have to think it would lean towards benefiting the defendant because unless the prosecution has come up with new evidence. Right. They're putting on essentially the same. same case where the defense can try to offer up something different. Sure.

Yeah. Because they know what's coming. Yeah. The jury didn't buy the first one. Maybe the second jury bought that one a little more because they were deadlocked. We'll lean into this part and we'll make this the focus of our defense. Several months later in November 2004, Warren Glootsky was denied parole for the first time. And this is interesting.

right. Kelly still hasn't even been convicted. No, she's still going through trials. And Warren's already been denied parole. This is how long it is taken, right? It's been seven years since the murder. Kelly's third trial started on February 21st, 2005. Her defense questioned the statements from the other teens. Ann Warren, Glawotsky, the defense argued that they didn't see anything and created a scene

based on rumors that circulated around their school after Rina disappeared. At the third trial, a pathologist testified that Rina's brain was swollen, and she suffered at least 18 forceful blows to her body. Her cause of death, though, was drowning. Rina's autopsy revealed that she had severe bruising over her entire skull, forehead and cheeks, as well as her pelvis, stomach, liver, and pancreas. And I think it's just, you know, highlights again, how brutal this beating actually was that she suffered. On March 17th, Warren once again described how he and Kelly followed and attacked

Rina as she tried to get away from the group of teens. He maintained his story that Kelly was the one who dragged Rina to the water and held her head under until she drowned. Other witnesses testified that in the days following her death, Kelly bragged about finishing off a girl and bragged that she broke Rena's arms and jumped on her neck. So there's not a lot that's going to be different, right, in this third trial. You're going to have a lot of the same people testifying.

You're going to have a lot of the same testimony. The jury began deliberating on April 7th. On April 12, 2005, Kelly was found guilty of second degree murder for the second time. On July 7th, she was sentenced to life in prison with no chance of parole for seven years. Two more years than what she got the very first time. Yeah. But it would take over a decade after Rina's murder for Kelly's case to finish making its way through the Canadian legal system. On September 5th, 2008, the BC Court of Appeal,

overturned Kelly's conviction and ordered a fourth trial. This is amazing. And it's part of what fascinates so many people about this case. Just Kelly's trial and her legal journey in particular, the court found that the judge presiding over Kelly's third trial made a mistake. In the handling of some witness testimony, the judge erred in his instructions to the jury over the testimony of Marissa Bowles, who said she witnessed the first attack and saw Rina walk across a bridge followed by Kelly and Warren.

However, her testimony was inconsistent with her written statement given 10 days after the murder. In that statement, she didn't say she saw Rina cross the bridge. The court's decision was split two to one, which triggered an automatic appeal to the Supreme Court. On January 12th, 2009, the Supreme Court of Canada rejected the defense's bid to stop them from hearing the prosecution's appeal of the latest ruling. On June 12th of that year, the Supreme Court of Canada reinstated Kelly's second degree murder conviction, which meant the fourth trial would never take place. I mean, you talk about a roller coaster.

And I mean, there's no sympathy, right, for Kelly here. as a murderer, but it would still be a roller coaster. Well, for sure, yeah. For the victim's family as well. Yeah. And even for, you know, the girls who participated, who have to testify again and again, again, much less sympathy for some of these people than for Rina's family, obviously. Yeah.

They have the biggest roller coaster of emotions. Over the past decade, Warren and Kelly, who later changed her name to Carrie Sim, have made headlines for their efforts to be released from prison. Warren was granted day parole in 2007, and we've talked about this before. Day parole allows inmates to go out into the community and to return to prison at night. In some cases, prisoners are granted extended parole and can even spend some nights at home. Warren was granted full parole in June 2010. And I don't know how I feel about that. You know, we've talked about it before.

I think it happens much less frequently here in the U.S. Sure. It seems to happen a lot in Canada where they kind of go into at some point this day parole, extended parole, and then, you know, ultimately into full parole. It's kind of like baby stepping. It is. It is. but you have convicted murderers at the stop and shop, you know, buying Reesey cups next to you.

Yeah, but if they're going to be out eventually, maybe this is the best way to integrate them back into society. Yeah, you can make the argument. You can definitely make the argument. I'm not saying one's better than the other. Warren took rehabilitation courses in prison in 2018. CBC reported that he was a mentor. to young people at risk of getting involved in crime. Rina's parents,

Suman and Manjit Verk, met him several times in prison. And they actually even supported his bid for parole. They also attended his parole hearing in 2007 to show their support. Well, I think that says a lot. It says a lot about them as people,

but it also says a lot about what they thought of him as far as his rehabilitation. they must have seen something to go to that link. I think so. Rina's family launched a campaign to bring awareness to teen violence and bullying in schools. Her parents traveled across the country to share Rina's story in an effort to prevent future tragedy.

Good for them. Yeah. I mean, it must have been horrible, but to try to find something or make something good happen, I think that's a great way to honor her memory. In 2009, they were awarded the Anthony J. Holm Award of Distinction for their work. Kelly Ellard didn't show remorse for several years. She got into a lot of trouble in prison for breaking the rules. She waived her right to a parole hearing four times before she applied for day parole in May 2016.

Her application was denied. Although she now accepted responsibility for the murder, the parole board found that, that she was minimizing many aspects of the offense per CBC. So maybe not really taking responsibility. Not taking full responsibility. Now, I didn't understand why someone would waive their right to a parole hearing. Maybe she was just so certain that they weren't going to let her out, you know, why go through with it?

But to waive it for time, hell, go in there and, give it a shot. At least. Yeah. What do you have to lose? Yeah. But, you know, here is something we see both in Canada and in the United States. You know, parole boards want to see you take responsibility.

What they don't want to see is you take some responsibility, but minimize other part. And it sounds like, you know, what she was doing. Kelly was denied day parole again in January 2017 because the parole board couldn't reach a consensus. Kelly told the court that since the birth of her child in the fall of 2016, she saw the world through different eyes. She believed she needed day parole so she could bond with her child and learn parenting skills. She was asked about the father, who is a federal offender? But how does she have a baby while she was in prison? I mean, I know how you have a baby.

I mean, but. Okay, because that's a whole different discussion. We don't have time to get into that. Well, the CBC reported that Kelly became pregnant during a private visit with her boyfriend while he was on day release. Canada allows private family visits, including conjugal visits, that can last up to 72 hours every two months if the offender is not at risk. for family violence or under restrictions.

Her boyfriend was re-arrested for breaching parole. Well, now we know. I don't know about you, but a 72-hour conjugal visit, that's quite a long time. That's a long time. What do you think? You're going to need some bananas, maybe a few naps. I'm thinking, you know, at least a couple bottles of Gatorade. Again, I think it just highlights, you know, some of the,

the differences. Again, we have conjugal visits here in some places. Kelly told the parole board she had been incident free for 18 months and had not used drugs since she failed a urine test in June 2015. I am really shocked, Gibbs, by the amount of drugs in prison. Man, there are, you know, there's definitely a lot of drugs in there. But you would think if you're up on parole or want to get out soon, you could want to have like clear. Hold off on doing drugs. Yeah. Kelly had another hearing on November 30th, 2017, where she was granted day parole. She admitted responsibility and said she was sorry. She said Rina did not deserve to die. Kind of like stating the obvious. Yeah. Yeah. But this is, you know, the thing that I'm never sure of.

Is it that these individuals ultimately come to this conclusion, they believe it? Or, and this is what I sometimes lean towards, is it more likely that they're just saying these things because they know it's what they have to say. They know it's what the parole board wants to hear. Yeah, for sure. I think there's a little manual on what do you have to do to get out of here. Here's the things you need to say or do at the time of your parole that your attorney probably hands to you. And I'm sure some people do kind of change their way of thinking and really do take responsibility and are remorseful. But I don't know what the percentage is. I've listened to some parole hearings.

And it does amaze me how some of the parolees are wanting to be a parolee, how they don't take responsibility or how they make it all about them. Yeah. Because that's the type of individual they are. It's what got them probably in trouble in the first. splits. And they just, they can't change. They can't get out of it. Rina's mother said, it was too late and added, as quoted by CBC, she could have taken responsibility a long time ago and saved us the pain and agony of going through three different trials and waiting

for 20 years to finally have some acknowledgement of her guilt. And that's absolutely true. Absolutely. Yeah. Now, Kelly Ellard doesn't give a rat's ass. No. about this family. She didn't care about Rina or she wouldn't have done any of the things that she did. Yeah, and she didn't care through all the trial periods while she was in jail. Rina's mother died on June 17, 2018, in a tragic accident. According to the family's announcement, she was 58 years old. The crime wire later reported that she died after she choked on her food at a cafe.

Oh, that's terrible. That is a really tragic accident. You know, you would think when you hear that car crash or, you know, something along those lines, like a really bad slip and fall, but choking to death at a restaurant, that's horrible. You were choked on something when no one was around? No, I don't think so. I'm, I'm pretty good at chewing up my food.

I don't think I've ever done that. Now I've gotten choked up, but never to the point where I needed someone. to intervene and like do the heimlich or anything like that. Where you're throwing yourself into the corner of the counter? No, no. I've never had that. You? Maybe.

Okay. Kelly was granted extended day parole, which allows overnight leave in August 2019. And Gibbs, she was still only 37 years old at this point. According to the 2019 parole board decision, Kelly remained defiant for years following the murder. And it took her a long time. to express remorse. Her last psychological assessment in 2016 points to a moderate to high moderate risk of future violence over the longer term.

That's not good. No. But yet, she's still on like day parole, which includes overnight leave. Her behavior in prison was called problematic at times. But her last incidents of violence occurred in 2009. And she had shown some stability and progress. So I guess that's what it was based on, right? She doesn't have what you would call a great long-term indicator,

but she did show some progress. So she was granted extended day parole, but Kelly's parole was revoked in August 2021 for drug and alcohol use and indications of violence with the father of her children. She had her second child in 2020. But then just two months later, her day parole was reinstated with restrictions. It was extended again in 2022 and continued for another six months in May 2020. The parole board found that she had made some progress in her reintegration, but there is

concern that when she's dealing with multiple stressors, it can result in poor decision making. I almost think that's an understatement. Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. I feel like they've given her some shots at this thing and it hasn't worked out well, but they keep giving them to her. Part of her rehabilitation should be, you know, how to deal with stress levels. Well, and I'm sure there are classes or something in prison, but what happens when you leave?

You know, I often think sometimes people don't get in trouble in prison because it's structured and in some prisons it's pretty locked down. But once you're out, how do you deal with the freedom? Yeah. And the stressors that are going to come up on a day to day basis. And if you can't deal with them, well, you're probably going to end up back in prison. You know, as we wrap this one up, I just, I can't help but replaying what this beating and murder must have been like for Rina. It's a very sad story. There's no doubt about that. The murder of Rina Verk still sparks important conversations about bullying and teen violence. Although her family suffered a tragic loss and had to go through multiple trials to see her killer

convicted, they chose to help others by talking about these issues with young people in schools across the country. Her father said in a 2017 interview with CBC, there's a new generation. And if they're not taught now that bullying is not okay, they will grow up to be adults and carry on this practice. None of us want that kind of society. We can see the results even now by our talking to school kids. They reflect, they write back to us, and they thank us for reminding them that bullying is a bigger problem than it appears. Nobody wants these kinds of things to happen. And that really gives us courage and confidence that we're on the right path. And I think you said it earlier, but to me, that is amazing to try to make something good out of this tragedy. You know,

Rina's mom is deceased now. But, you know, both of them and her father continues that. How many lives have they touched. How many lives have they changed? How many people have they saved from either being a bully and getting in trouble or being the victim of bullying? Now, you're not going to reach everybody. No. But you only need to reach a percentage, right, to make a difference.

And they are making a difference. I don't know. What happened to Reno under that bridge and then later on, you know, across the, the bridge. into the water, absolutely horrible. And, you know, I do go back to this kind of group thing. Well, everyone's doing it. So I'm here. I'm going to join in. I'm going to do a little bit of it too. It's not as hard for me to understand as maybe the pre-planning that we talk about in some cases where two, three, four, five people get together and they talk about what they're going to do. Right.

This would have been more of a spur of the moment thing. I'm not saying it's any better, but you would have wanted for some of these girls and for Warren as well to step in, stop it, walk away if they felt like they couldn't stop it. Right. But to join in after, you know, someone's already on the ground and, and kick them as well. And it's just a, how do you live with yourself? Yeah, I don't know. At a minimum, you should be walking away.

You know, I also think if you can, if you felt like you could, you try to stop it. If not, you have cell phones. I know everybody has cell phones at this time. Yeah, this is 2017. It's not in 1985. Why aren't you dialing up somebody getting some help over there? Why couldn't you do that? Because, again, what we see time and time again is nobody wants to make that move because they're afraid they're going to be.

ostracized or kicked out of the friend group because you know at 15 years old that's what you're worried about yeah you're worried about who you're friends with and your click in your your circle now when you get to be our age and you look back on it it's very easy to say what are you doing right don't care about that because you're with the wrong people anyway it's not that easy when you're in the moment at 15 years old. I'm not saying I would have done it, but I'm sure at 15, I did some things that I probably shouldn't have done. Oh, I think we all can say that based on peer pressure or, you know, other people wanting to fit in with other people. Now, it wasn't beating on someone after they were down. Right. I wouldn't have done that.

Yeah, I just think it takes a courage that most people that age, I guess probably don't possess to make a phone call or to jump in the middle and say, you know, this is wrong. Stop it. Or you're going to have to deal with me. Most people that age don't have the courage to do that. Yeah. Unfortunately. But that's it for our episode on Kelly Ellard and Warren Gloatky and the murder of Rina

Verk. We've got some voicemails, Gibbs. You want to check those out? It's here. Hey, Mike and Gibby. It's Sally from the United Kingdom. sick up to be exact. So yeah, thank you for making my life better.

I found out your podcast through lockdown and that really helps me. So I've beenched this and quite a lot and I'm a really big fan. Have you ever thought about coming to CrimeCon UK on a constant visitor there and be really good to see you there? I'm sure he's got a lot of UK fans

that want to see you. So thank you. Keep doing what you're doing and keep your own time taking. Yeah, thank you so much for the voicemail. We have thought about going to UK CrimeCon. There was some kind of conflict last year. I can't remember what it was.

And then... Well, they wouldn't let us get on the Concord. Well, that's what it was. You know the Concord doesn't fly anymore, right? No, I do not. No, you didn't. I don't think they fly the Concord anymore. So that's one of the reasons why they wouldn't let us on.

Now it explains it. Okay. I could be wrong. wrong, but there's some part of me that thinks that that's, it just doesn't run anymore for whatever reason. But it's probably too expensive to operate. But I would love to go. I've never been to Europe ever in my entire life.

My wife has and she wants to go back. So I know she'd go with me. We might take you. It'd be fun. It would be fun. Yeah. Get some fish and chips. Chips and fish.

See Big Ben, Parliament. round and round. All that other stuff in between. Exactly. Yeah. So we'll have to put that on the agenda. Hi. My name is Summer.

I'm from Warren, so not too far from you guys. But I just listened to the episode where you were talking about the ass man and Givie knowing the Mean Girls reference. And I just started cracking up. That was so funny. I've been listening to you guys since about the pandemic started. And I just love you guys so much. Thank you.

Oh, how nice. And appreciate that voicemail very much. I am always surprised by Gibby, the things that he should know but doesn't know. And then the things that I think he'll never know and then somehow does. I'm shocked by it too. The whole thing is shocking. You are shocking. Yeah.

Sometimes I just reflect and think, huh. That's why I say. Huh. All right. We had one thing in the mailbag, but it was a lot. Danielle Pruitt sent us a huge box of goodies. I mean, I'm talking tons of candy, some coffee, but a whole bunch of candy making supply. Yeah. I see it all right here. My youngest is going to be amazed because she loves to bake. She loves to make candy, stuff like that. So it's a big box of stuff. So thank you. Daniel very much. Appreciate that. All right, buddy. That is it for another episode of true crime all

the time. So for Mike and givey, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.