True Crime All The Time - Kevin Coe "The South Hill Rapist" Part2

Episode Date: September 7, 2020

During the late 1970s and early 1980s, there were a high number of sexual assaults in the South Hill section of Spokane, Washington. The authorities created a task force to catch this predator that the media dubbed "The South Hill Rapist." It would take some time but, eventually, authorities closed in on a man named Kevin Coe, whose father was the managing editor of The Spokane Chronicle. When the true extent of Kevin's crimes came out they were shocking. The authorities believe that he is responsible for more than 50 sexual assaults during a relatively short time period.Join Mike and Gibby for the second and last part of the Kevin Coe story. We'll delve into his trials and the bizarre behavior exhibited by his mother Ruth. We also detail out some of the other crimes that Kevin Coe is thought to have committed and the fight by the State of Washington to keep him locked up.You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 199 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime. Mike Gibson. How are you? I'm doing good, man. How about you? I'm doing well. Yeah.

I'm doing well. I will say this right off the bat. This is a jam packed episode. It is. It's always tough when you have a multi-parter to figure out where to cut one and two or one, two and three. And last week was a little shorter than I wanted it to be. this week maybe just a touch longer, but it's kind of hard to make them even.

But it's good. It's good. There's a lot to go in the case of Kevin Coe. Before we get into it, let's give our shout out. Let's do it. For Patreon, Amy Tibble jumped out at our highest level. What's going on, Tibble? Jesse Peterson jumped out at our highest level.

Hey, Jesse. We had Matt Kuhl. Hey, thanks, Matt. Kelly Schaefer jumped out at our highest level. What's going on, Kelly? So did Delaney Donovan. Hey, Donovan. We had Melanie Hall.

Thank you, Melanie. Angela Gillingwater. What's going on, Gillingwater? Eric Lee. Hey, thank you, Eric. Vivian. Kimber Rickert. What's up?

Kimbra. Leslie Leonard. Hey, Leonard. Felicity Jones. What's happening, Felicity? Melanie Russell. Well, thank you, Melanie. Sophany.

Yeah, Sophie Thompson. Hey, thank you, Sophie. Ryan. What's going on, Ryan? Becko 911. Hey, Bec-Eak-Bek-O. Melissa Caruth. Hey, Melissa.

Kim Thoreau. What's happening in Thoreau? Nicole. What's up, Nicole? Pamela Nacastro. Hey, Nacastro. Michelle Long. I appreciate that, Michelle.

Sarah Lundy. Hey, Sarah. And Whitney. What's happening, Whitney? And then if we go back into the vault. Yeah. This week, we selected Annie and Theodore cats. Cats are in the house.

Yeah, the cats are in the house. They've been with us a long time. So we appreciate all the new Patreon support, the continued Patreon support. We do. We had some great PayPal Donut. donations as well. Janelle Pounds made a significant donation. Thank you, Janelle.

Barbara Kalanowski. Hey, Kalinowski. Online payment. Really? Yeah, that's all it said. That's important to have. No name, so hopefully whoever Senate knows who they are. Yeah.

And Sue Lewis. What's happening, Sue? So thank you all as well. I knew a boy named Sue. Did you? Mm-hmm. How to go for him? Well, Johnny Cash wrote a song about it.

Oh, okay. So. From my recollection, it didn't, you know, didn't go all that well for him. Well, it's what the song said. So we just got done doing our weekly Patreon video. It was a little Scott Peterson talk and the overturning of his death sentence. Now, right now we have an episode out on TCAT Unsolved. We're talking about the murders of the Raker sisters in 1974, St. Cloud, Minnesota.

Two girls Gibbs go off to buy some school supplies on later. Labor Day and they disappeared. And later, tragically, they were found murdered. Yeah. So we'll get into, you know, what they did that day, what witnesses saw and some persons of interest, one, even a pretty notorious serial killer. But make sure you check that out. All right, Gibbs.

Are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime all the time? Man, I can't wait for this episode. Yeah. It's going to be a good one. We're finishing up our coverage of Kevin Coe out of. Spokane, Washington, who was dubbed the South Hill rapist. Now, in the first episode, we talked about Kevin's dynamic with his family, especially his mother.

It was a little strange, and she's definitely going to come back around in this episode. We discussed six brutal sexual assaults that he committed between 1978 and 1981, but as we'll find out, there were so many more. The police had set up a task force. They were using decoys. And Kevin was on their radar. That's how we ended the first episode. So Kevin Coe, after being under surveillance for several weeks, was finally arrested on March 10th, 1981, at his place of employment, Crane Realty.

You ever had somebody arrested at your place of work? I have not had that happen before. I want to say it would be embarrassing, but you're being arrested. for being a serial rapist. So I don't know if embarrassment is really the word. Don't know if you're going to be ever invited back. I don't think you would be. No, no, you're not coming back for a reunion or the Christmas party or anything like that.

That very same night, some of the victims of the South Hill rapist picked him out of a lineup. So happened very quickly, right? He was charged with six counts of first degree rape, even though pretty early on, police suspected that he was responsible for many more. And to me, I think his trial happened quickly. He went on trial in July of 81. So within about four months, you know, he was in a courtroom. Prosecutors had a lot of witnesses who took the stand to testify. They had the oven mitts that we talked about in episode one that they alleged Kevin used in at least one attack, victims, eyewitnesses to his crimes, and even Coe's ex-girlfriend, testify. And to me, gives the victim's identification of Coe as their attacker that has to be very

powerful to a jury to have these women get up on the stand and point to Kevin Coe as the defendant and say, yes, that's the man who sexually assaulted me. That's the man who raped me. He's sitting right there. There was a school janitor who testified to seeing Coe's car at Hart's Field when that attack occurred. One man testified that he chased Coe after he attacked a female jogger. And then you had Kevin's ex-girlfriend, Jenny Perham. Her testimony was very interesting.

She said that Kevin washed the oven mitts just before he was arrested, which was strange, but I mean, obviously we know why. Well, I can tell you right now, I've never washed a pair of oven mitts in my life. Really? Now, my wife maybe has. But as a man, I'm not thinking about, oh, man, these oven mitts, they just need to be washed. You need to get this sauce and stuff off of them. Yeah.

No, I just get them out of the drawer. Yeah. Use them. And just leave them behind. And she comes behind you and fix them up and has to clean them up and all that. See, that's the thing. You just never realize what happens behind the scene. No, I know.

she does. And I'm thankful for what she does. Yeah, I bet. You know, and I'm not saying I'm a slob. I pick my stuff up, but specifically when it comes to oven mitts, right. I know for a fact, I've never taken them, walked over to the washing machine because I do laundry and thought, I got to get these oven mitts in the, in the washer. I just never done it. And probably never will. And probably never will. But here's the thing. Much of her testimony focused on a dildo. So, yep, you heard that right, a dildo. Because Gibbs, there were a number of victims who said they thought that Kevin Coe either used a dildo during the attack or as part of his flashing routine.

Yeah. Jenny testified that Kevin owned a dildo. And it came out that after his arrest, when his longtime friend Jay was visiting him in jail, Kevin asked him to go to an empty home, presumably a home that either he had for sale or that he knew about that was for sale, locate the dildo and destroy it for him. Oh, give me the evidence, please. He wanted his friend to get rid of the evidence. Now, that's got to be a conversation.

I get it. This is your longtime friend, but, you know, if I come to you and say, give you, I need a favor. Yeah. I need you to go here, find this dildo that I've stashed. retrieve my dildo. Uh-huh. Yeah. And then I need you to destroy it.

Yeah. You're telling me you're not going to have about 18,000 questions about what's going on. We'll have a lot of questions. I'm going to say, you know what? I'm just going to burn the house down versus touching it. Forget finding the dildo. Let's just burn the whole house down. And I don't know if you should be really saying the word dildo on your, when you're in that,

you know, call area with all the other inmates around you. Yeah. Probably not. Probably not. Like, hmm, he likes to you. What? I'm assuming that dildo, what? I'm assuming that was whispered.

But, you know, it turned out that the house wasn't empty. So I guess Jay had to figure out a way to get inside, talk to the new owners. Yeah. But he got the dildo, according to, you know, everything that, that I read. And as Kevin asked him to do, he ended up destroying it. Good thing the new owners didn't find it. Imagine moving in, move in day, open up the drawers, getting excited about putting your civilware away or whatever. You come across a used dildo?

I guess that's just a favor that, you know, most people probably don't get asked every day. No. If ever. But that's how it happened. I can't even think about the strangest thing I've ever been asked. I don't even want to think about it. But that would be up there if I asked you that to do that for me. Oh.

It would be up there as one of the strangest. Between that and the time you have me bury that body for sure. So you have just a mountain of evidence, right, against Kevin Coe. We're not going to go into this entire. trial. We could spend a lot of time on it. Ruth tried to come to her son's rescue. She ended up testifying under oath that she and Kevin had formed their own private task force. So basically, they would drive around the streets at night for hours searching for the South Hill rapist. They're amateur detectives. Sure. Mom and son. Yeah. And they're going to catch the South Hill

rapist. Obviously what this was meant to do was to explain all of Kevin's nighttime field trips. Because you got his girlfriend saying, I don't know where he went. He said he was out jogging. So Ruth comes to the rescue and says, no, you know, he was with me. He was just part of the co-detective task force unit. Yeah, just us too. Yeah. And that's why he happened to be in the same similar areas as the South Hill rapist. Yeah. Basically what she tried to do was give him, him an alibi for every single attack that he was charged with. Kevin took the stand in his own defense. And in the descriptions you read of him in the paper, you know, it was basically as though this guy was calm. He was cool. He was collected. He was described as impeccably dressed by papers.

Yeah. Well, we knew he had a thing with his wardrobe. Yeah, he was big on his appearance. But I guess what I took from it was that he felt very sure of himself that he was going to be able to talk his way out of this, right? He's got to get on the stand and try to poke holes in the prosecution's case. Right. And he's going to do that by denying basically everything that all these witnesses are saying about him. Now, the prosecution did get him to admit to the dildo. Right. There was a lot of dildo talk in this trial. I don't think I've ever seen this much dildo talk in one trial. But he said, yeah, I've seen it. I even saw it in my car one time. I assumed it was my girlfriends. Okay. You got to say something, man. You can't, you know, can't not address the dildo in the

room. It's got to be addressed. I think one of the big things is that the gloves, right? We talked about that a lot in the first episode. That's what kind of tied Kevin to a lot of these attacks, right? wore gloves, forced his fingers, sometimes hand into victim's throats. Well, Kevin said on the stand that he didn't wear gloves. You know, even in the wintertime in Spokane, Washington, no gloves. The prosecution had a whole bunch of witnesses that said, yeah, he wore gloves all the time. Always had.

He always had gloves on. I saw him here. I saw him there. Probably had manicured hands, you know. Yeah. I think that was kind of a big part of the trial as well. As the prosecution is hammering him on this stuff, I wish they would have said something like, how's that feel?

Do you like the way that feels? Is that working for you? Do you think, have you thought about this before being in this moment? Does it feel good? Kind of like how he would talk to his victims. Oh, yeah. When they were under stress. Like such strange questions.

Yeah. On July 29th, 1981, he was found guilty of counts two, three, five, and six of first degree rape. So only four of the six. One of the original counts was for the attack on the first victim. We talked about Lois. He was not convicted for that rape. And the speculation is that the jury didn't convict on that charge because Lois had initially identified another man as her attacker.

it wasn't until 1981 after Coe's arrest that Lois got to see him in a lineup and identified him as her attacker. So to me, that's sad. There's two victims that really didn't get justice here in this first trial, but they wouldn't be the only ones. And when you look at Lois, right, you're trying to give the police a description. Maybe they're showing you photos. Well, you've just been through a very.

traumatic experience. Absolutely. Yeah. Is it out of the ordinary that someone would struggle dealing with what they just went through and piece these things together? No, I don't think it is at all. But is a defense attorney going to jump all over it? Absolutely. Sure. Because that's their job. So his sentencing went like this for count two, not more than 20 years. Count three, not more than 25 years. count five not more than 30 years and count six not more than life so that's a lot right and it should be he was he committed some you know horrible crimes and all these sentences were to run consecutively which is a big deal it's a huge deal it's a clear sign Gibbs that they never wanted Kevin co to see the light of day or you know to get back on the streets yeah and they made sure of

And then it was in 1982 after his arrest and conviction that Kevin legally changed his name, right? From Frederick to Kevin, we talked about it. But he had been going by Kevin for several years already. It just wasn't his legal name. You know, I mentioned it at the end of episode one. He had a bunch of ads in the paper. They all said Kevin Co. And this was in like 80, 81.

Yeah. Well before he legally changed his name. So you're going to have. appeals and he had his appeals and the Supreme Court heard his argument overturned his convictions and the reasons given for this was because some of the witnesses against Coe and obviously that includes some of his victims had undergone hypnosis prior to identifying him as the rapist we mentioned it briefly I think hypnosis in episode one I believe it became a big deal to the point where his convictions got overturned. So in October of 84, he was released on bond. I mean,

imagine this guy with such amazing, severe penalties for these convictions, and now he's out on bond. He has to go through a second trial in 1985. I mean, this is a guy who police knew was a suspect in dozens and dozens of violent sexual assaults, but he gets released to go back on the street. I don't get that. I don't either. You would think, I get it. They overturned his conviction. He has the right to have another trial.

But you would have thought there would have been some way that they could have figured out how to keep this guy in jail. Because this is not somebody you went on in the streets. No, absolutely not. And I think it had the citizens of Spokane, Washington, pretty peeved. You know, they were not happy to find out that this monster was out walking the streets among them. But the retrial happened fairly quickly. And on February 12th, 1985, he was found guilty on counts three, five, and six.

So, you know, they had a hung jury on count two. The district attorney decided not to retry him on count two because they didn't want to risk the convictions they already had. And most likely, they felt like, okay. three convictions and the sentences that he was going to get from those, it's going to keep him behind bars for good. I think he'd be, I think he had to feel pretty solid. Yeah, I'm assuming that was the thought process behind not retrying him for the one count. Although I'll say again, to me it's kind of sad, right? So he ultimately gets convicted of three counts. That means you have three victims who really didn't get the justice that they deserve. He sentenced again. And this time

he gets 25 years for count three, 30 years for count five, and life in prison again for count six. Sentences to run consecutively. He appeals again. But this time, the Supreme Court of Washington affirms the conviction for count three, but they overturn the convictions on five and six. And this is what, you know, again, is so strange about the post-arrest, post-first trial of Kevin Coe. a lot that that happened and the convictions that were overturned they all had to do with the issue of hypnosis and witness identification because that was a big part of the trial most of the evidence against him was witness identification but what does that leave right so he has a conviction for count three he only got 25 years for that so you look at it you know as a whole after all these

attacks, we know he was only tried for six count. Right. Even though the police thought and probably had evidence that he was involved in many more. But then you find out in the end, the only conviction that stood was for rape and the first degree on count three. And he got 25 years. I mean, that blows me away. Shocking for sure. You have a seriously violent sexual predator. One count, 25 years. Gibbs, he was in his mid 30s, somewhere around there at the time of the conviction. Right. So even if he served the whole 25 years, not a single day off for good behavior or time

or whatever, they lower your sentence for, he would be released when he's 60. Yeah. Ish somewhere around there. Still probably young enough for a person like this to wreak havoc and commit additional crimes. Oh, for sure. know, and he probably would have. I think he would have for sure.

All right, Gibbs, let's take a break to talk about Best Fiends. Hey, folks, when you finish your latest podcast binge, what do you do? Yeah, you can go down the wormhole, the rabbit hole, as Gibby says, of diving into the case you've just listened to and researching. That's fun. But sometimes you need to take a little bit of time off. For me, that's when I like to clear a few levels on Best Fiends. That's a perfect way for me to de-stress between research, writing,

recording. I love the process of getting to that next level and the increasingly challenging puzzles. It's a great way to have some socially distanced competition with your friends. Best Fiends is the infamously impossible to put down puzzle game with over 100 million downloads and counting. It's free to download and has literally millions of five-star reviews on the Apple App Store and Google Play. We all love a good challenge. Best Fiends gives you over 5,000 of them. There's always more levels, events, and challenges being added all the time, you'll never have a dull moment with Best Fiends. So download Best Fiends free today on the Apple App Store or Google Play. That's Friends Without the R. Best Fiends. Your math skills have global potential. As an actuary, you'll solve

some of the world's most pressing problems while helping people to live better lives. Become an actuary through the society of actuaries and work anywhere in the world. But now, let's Let's deviate for a minute to talk about Ruth Coe, or as you would call her old bear face. Old bear face. Because you got to throw old in front of there because that's what you do. Probably not surprising that Ruth didn't like how her son was treated. Couldn't believe that her little boy was convicted. No way was he guilty.

Now where do you think she placed the blank? Not on her, not on him. No. She put it squarely on the judge. the prosecutor, the system. I get that. You're upset. You don't believe it's fair.

You're mad. But Ruth took it a step further. She made a $500 down payment on a $4,000 hit that was supposed to cover the deaths of both the prosecuting attorney and the judge. So she's going all out. She's not holding back. The problem for Ruth was that the hit man was an undercover cop. So as soon as she handed over this 500.

dollar down payment, she was arrested. But I go back to episode one. I mean, it was a strange family dynamic between Coe and his mother. There's no doubt about it. You know, let's go on dates. Who knows what else was happening. I don't want to speculate. Yeah, that was so bizarre, man.

You have to wonder why the guy's messed up. That scenario was messed up. It was. I'm not sure it's what messed him up, but it didn't help. It didn't help. There's no way it. could have. So you had his mother lying for him right on the stand to try to keep him out of jail or prison. Now you have her post conviction trying to have the judge and prosecutor kill. Now I believe in

mom standing behind their children, but this is going too far. It's just too far. Ruth spent five days in jail and then was released on a $30,000 bond. Now, I think if you're the judge and the prosecutor, you're a little worried that this woman's out on the street after posting her bond. Her defense took a very unique approach, basically saying that if the police hadn't offered up a pretend hitman, she never would have hired him. It's kind of that whole entrapment thing, right? Now, do you buy that or does she just go find another hitman? Well, I think she'd go find another hitman.

Yeah, I do too. I did too, but I get the argument that the defense is trying to make. What else are they going to do? Now, Gordon Co., Kevin's dad, he publicly came out and said he believed that his wife did offer up the money. But he also said that, quote, I had a severely disturbed and distraught wife. And they could have just informed me that she had gotten this idea. And we could have seen that she got help.

So he was wanting to know why the police didn't come to him. after they found out that she was looking to hire a hitman because he could have gotten her help, which to me Gibbs, it's almost laughable because this is a serious crime. You're trying to have someone killed. This is not you picked a fight with your neighbor and you threw eggs on their house. We're way beyond trying to sort this out. You're going to trial. This is about as real as you can can ever get. Bareface was ultimately found guilty and sentenced to a year in county jail with 10 years probation. It seems pretty light. I was going to say the same thing. She's like, you know, she got lucky. Tried to kill, have someone killed. You spend a year in the county jail. Now, okay, I get it 10 years

probation. If you do anything wrong, you're going back, but you're out in a year for trying to have two people killed. That doesn't, the sentence doesn't seem to fit the crime. And it certainly doesn't seem like it's a deterrent. Is that the same as a deterrent? It is. Okay. It's the Ohio slain of a deterrent. Exactly. No, it's not because you read that in the paper, right? Because this is highly publicized. You, you've got it in your head that you want to have somebody killed and you think, well, what's the worst that can happen? I get a year and 10 years probation. Now, I'll roll the dice. Sure. So she did her time. And after she was released, she and Gordon moved to Henderson, Nevada. And that's where they lived out the rest of their lives. Kevin Coe was diagnosed with personality disorders not specified with narcissistic and antisocial traits.

And we mentioned it. He only ended up getting 25 years. Right. So, you know, as you get into the 2000s, okay, he's getting close to getting out. And in 2006, the Attorney General of Washington filed a motion to get Kevin committed indefinitely to the custody of the Department of Social and Health Services until he no longer met the definition of a sexually violent predator. And I think Gibbs, this was their way to try to figure out, something to do to keep this guy in prison. You know, 25 years hits and they just can't have him out walking the street. No, it's not somebody you need to be having out there on the streets. So they had a doctor by the name of Amy Phoenix do a lengthy examination on Kevin Coe.

And she concluded that he had some mental abnormalities that included receiving arousal from four sexual conduct, arousal to urine and feces, exhibitionism, and personality of disorder. That's a lot. It's a lot going on. Yeah. She also said that he was very likely to reoffend. So there's a big report that this doctor prepared. It was called sexually violent predator evaluation.

It's dated August 25, 2006. It is filled with information. But what's interesting about it is that. it includes information from 22 victims who identified Kevin Coe as their attacker. But he was never charged with these offenses, right? We know he was only initially charged with six. And that's sad too, right? There are so many victims linked to Kevin Coe and so many crimes for which he was never

prosecuted. And again, to me, the sadness comes from, again, not only what happened to them, but the fact that they just never really got any type of justice. They didn't get to face their attacker in court. They didn't get to hear a jury say that this man was guilty for what he did to them. They didn't get any of that. Right. There's so many that we can't even talk about all of them.

That would probably take two more episodes. At least. At least to go through all the attacks. We'll talk about some. one notable victim was a little boy. He was the son of Kevin's ex-sister-in-law. So his nephew by marriage to Jennifer Coe, who we talked about in episode one, the boy went to live with Kevin and Jennifer when he was about seven or eight years old.

And what Kevin Coe did to this boy is unbelievable. The abuse, the sexual assault. He didn't live with him all that long. But during that time, he experienced a tremendous amount of abuse. It was said that Coe would throw him into the swimming pool, even though he couldn't swim. He was afraid of water.

He would paddle this kid. He would force him to box. So here's Kevin Coe, a grown man. Boxing a seven, eight-year-old kid. Come on, buddy. Got to toughen you up. Probably knocking him senseless. Right.

If he would cry, he'd get paddled. And I don't mean the paddling of yesteryear that you and I maybe remember. Yeah. You know, you get a couple wax, you cry and you go off. I'm not saying that was right. I'm saying it was kind of the norm for a lot of people our age. Right. What I'm talking about is beating so severely that it was reported that blood was

caked in this boy's pajamas. Yeah. That's not a no, one, two, three quick strike paddle. And then you go off crying and I hate you. This is severe punishment, cruelty, torture, abuse. Well, we said he was brutal. He was. And we'll probably expand on it at the end. But I just don't think he cared about anyone but himself. I don't think he had any feelings towards other human beings. I just don't know that they were there. But then it gets really twisted, Gibbs. And some of this stuff is, is hard to talk about. This child stated that Kevin would take screws and put them into the hole of his penis. It's a little kid. Kevin's putting the screws into the hole of his penis. Wow.

So disturbing. There was another revolting claim that came out of this report that said, after he would molest this kid, he would make the family dog lick his anus, the boy's anus. This is sick shit, man. I don't know how to get around it. No, that's exactly what it is. It's sick shit and it does something for him, clearly, that he's allowing this to happen and encourages it or forces it.

But it's just so wrong. Like you said, he's just brutal and he doesn't care. Well, what did the report say? Let's go back to it. receiving arousal from for sexual conduct, arousal to urine and feces. I mean, you're, you know, you're getting into those type of issues. Right. I think the other thing that you can plainly see is that Kevin Coe was a man who didn't see any boundaries, right? Most of us see the boundaries of what's acceptable, what's not acceptable, what's legal, what's not legal, what's

moral what's not moral. Yeah, what's right. What's wrong? Ethical, unethical. You can use all those different words. Some people just don't see those boundaries. There are no boundaries for them. I think that's what you have with Kevin Coe. It's like I can do whatever I want. Yeah. And most likely I'm going to get away with it. But maybe I'm not seeing it as wrong or as morally reprehensible as most people would. Because it's what I want to do. It's what makes me happy, I guess. Or it's what gets me off. I mean, you can say it a couple different ways. I know we all been around people that kind of stretched that, but not to this extent, but they're like, and they'll tell you, it doesn't bug me. I'm okay with it. I'm happy. It makes me happy when I do this kind of stuff. You're like,

but it's not really you should be doing. No, I get it. I've known people that have stretched that kind of boundary, but to break it, to bust through it or to not even see it or know it's there. That's the problem. If you don't even know there is such a thing. Yeah. Then I think you're getting into a different type of territory. So there was more. There's a ton of allegations of what Kevin Coe did to this boy.

They're all brutal. The report references an indecent liberties charge reported against Coe for some activities while he was living in Las Vegas. And some of those seemed to be tied to the molestation of this boy and the family pet and some of those things. It's horrific stuff. It just seems like it never went anywhere. Now, years later, this boy, you know, made a formal report, wanted to press charges, but by that time, it was too late, right? The statute of limitations had passed. I think one of the other big things that came out with this interview between Coe and the doctor was that co talked about an incident that dated all the way back to 1971. And we started our coverage in 1978.

Right. He was arrested for second degree burglary and indecent liberties, eventually only charged with second degree burglary, but he apparently entered an unlocked apartment and climbed into bed with a woman who was asleep. He unbuttoned her shirt, put his hand down her shirt and said, don't you remember that you invited me here to have sex with you? The woman screamed. She ran out of the apartment and two men from the apartment complex apprehended co. But he got lucky. He did get lucky because some of the, the most serious charges were dismissed because the victim moved out of state and didn't communicate with the prosecuting attorney's office. And isn't that something else that we see in a lot of these cases? It's not just that people are so smart they go undetected. We see it all too often,

Gibbs. People are caught for doing things that, you know, they shouldn't do, sometimes pretty heinous crimes. They just wriggle out of it. Or there's something that kind of the luck goes in their favor and they get away with something or get a slap on the wrist and they move on. In 1977, he was charged with disorderly conduct. But this is more than disorderly conduct. I think of that as being, you know, you're kind of drunk, you're causing a ruckus. He's in a restaurant bathroom, a women's bathroom, peering over the stall and saying sexually explicit things to a woman using the restroom.

He's something else. That's all I can keep saying, you know, he's just, man, he is a character. character. And there were a number of incidents like this. I mean, I can't even go through them all. I think one of the common threads was that every time that they would get a look at his car, get a look at his license plate, the car would come back registered to Gordon Coe, his father, right? We mentioned it. His father was kind of prominent in society. And when they questioned Kevin about it, he said, no, wasn't driving the car, wasn't there. And it just kind of never went anywhere. In January 1978, Coe was charged within decent liberties.

He approached a female who was walking down the street. This is in broad daylight. He reached out, grabbed her breast and then just kept walking. Who does that? Dumbasses, but. Or Kevin Coe. Or Kevin Coe. This woman immediately went to police.

And there were eyewitnesses who saw Kevin running away, getting into a silver Pontiac with personalized license plates that read disco. So I guess it was 78. People were still in the disco, but I don't know why you'd put that on your license plates. You really liked a disco, man. Now, this was his car. This was not his dad's car.

So when they ran the plates, it came back to Frederick Coe, which was his legal name at the time. But again, this case never went anywhere, even though the victim identified Coe, two different witnesses identified him. what I found was that they just couldn't find him.

That's what it was said. They couldn't find him and it kind of just faded away. Are you kidding me? Yeah, I don't know if I want to believe that. Now, I think there are people that would argue, okay, did his dad's position in the community, in society, maybe get him special treatment, maybe. I think some people have made that argument. Possible. I don't know.

How else do you explain some of this stuff? In June of 1979, two employees of the Tiger's Den massage parlor reported a white male about 25 years old had come into the massage parlor but was turned away. They didn't have any spots in their schedule open. I know how you hate that. I do. I do. My wife will hate it even more when she hears you try to implicate me in that. This same man returned later again was turned away and then came back for a third time around 245.

5 p.m. This time he got a spot. But once he was alone in the massage room, he pulled a knife on a woman, bound her hands behind her back and pushed her to the floor. He molested her, raped her anally. And then when he was finished, he tied up her feet, put a towel on her mouth and left the room. Just left her there, tied up. He went to another employee and said, you know what? Something happened in there. You might want to go check that out. And as soon as, they got into the room where this woman was bound. He grabbed this woman and demanded money. He made her take her clothes off, taped her hands behind her back and bent her over a massage

table. Apparently he called her a whore. Yeah. Shuffed her on the ground, squirted massage oil onto her vagina and then masturbated. Then he raped her. But the incident didn't last long because it was like abruptly he stopped. This is where it gets strange again for me. Very strange.

He stood up. He apologized to this woman. And then he began wiping his fingerprints off the oil bottle, the doorknob, everything else he had touched. He told her not to leave the room for five minutes or he would kill her. But I'm sorry. But I'm sorry. I'm sorry for what I did. It was almost Gibbs when I was looking at it, almost as if he all of a sudden realized that I don't want to say he was doing.

something wrong because I don't know that that would enter his mind, but that maybe he needed to get the heck out of Dodge. And I need to wipe down evidence, not leave any evidence. I need to get out of here. I've spent too much time here. Exactly. I don't think he all of a sudden had, you know, this big awakening in his conscience where he felt like he had done something wrong. I don't want to give that impression at all. No, because he doesn't stop. after this. In December, 1979, Coe grabbed a woman, covered her mouth with his hand. She said he was wearing black leather gloves. He forced his hand deep inside her mouth. He dragged her across the yard the whole time, telling her, don't scream or I'll punch you in the face. He assaulted her. This woman

told him that she was on her period. That didn't seem to face him at all. He violated her with his finger while asking her those bizarre questions that he was known to ask, right? When was the last time he had sex? Do you enjoy this? Do you enjoy that? He fondled her and he masturbated. And again, he threatened her to stay still, not to report him. And then he disappeared.

This was another victim that was later hypnotized. And presumably because of the hypnosis, this was not a question. crime for which he was charged. Gibbs, I can't stress enough how many different attacks there were. And I think I've already mentioned it, right? In episode one, we talked about 1978 to 1981.

Right. Well, if you looked at the six attacks that we talked about, you would think, well, there's a bunch of gaps. No, man, there were no gaps.

He was quite busy. It just came out later that he was involved in all, most likely involved in all of these other, attacks as well. He was never convicted of them, but it's hard not to believe with the eyewitnesses and really the details of the attacks that it wasn't him. Right. This is not a guy that's not going to be consistent with his actions. No, not at all. In April of 1980, a 48 year old woman was hanging clothes on her clothesline. This is like 6 a.m. in a secluded area of her. apartment complex, she noticed a man who had his back to her. And I think she got scared. And she yelled at

this guy. She said, hey, man, you're scaring me. What's going on? And then all of a sudden, she noticed that he was talking to himself. And he had a dildo, was holding it near his crotch and was stroking it. Yeah. And then as quickly as it started, she confronted him. He left. So he's just there stroking his Dilldo. Yeah. Okay. Getting some kind of perverse pleasure out of that, obviously, or he wouldn't have done it. Maybe he just wanted to feel like, feel what it was like to have a normal size.

Okay. So let's get into it. Yeah. Because I knew it was a subject that I was going to want to talk about. Why the Dildo? Because you're inadequate. What other reason would there be? You have these feelings of inadequacy.

Is that why you need to feel like you're dominating? other people, forcing them to do things against their will. I think so for him, because a lot of his methods were to either use his fingers or his mouth, you know. And we talked about in episode one, one of the victims said that it sounded like he was trying to will himself to get an erection. Yeah. So he had that problem on top of it.

So there's something to it, right? you don't sit on a park bench stroking a dildo unless there's well you shouldn't be stroking anything on a park bench but you know what i'm saying well i understand what you're saying yeah yeah and i get that he probably carried it around because that was his way of feeling like he did have something and maybe it was the he wanted to shock or he wanted to i don't know man i don't know sometimes i try I try to figure these people out, but, you know, it's hard to. But obviously there's something there. Now, later in 1980 in August, Co had a unique encounter. He encountered a woman who was on an evening walk. He kind of jumped out at her from the bushes. He was wearing a gray jogging suit. And when he got

close to this woman, she said, if you're the South Hill rapist, I'm taking my cane and I'm going to beat your head and I'm going to knock your balls off. So I like this woman already. Yeah. Don't take no shit. Start swinging that cane. Exactly. So what does a guy like Kevin Coe do? Does he run off? No. He starts walking with this woman, conversing with her, asking her if she's would really hit him with the cane. She assured him that she would. And I guess at some point she decided, okay, this is not the rapist. This is just the lonely guy that wants to talk. He's talking me up.

Now, she did ask him why he had been hiding in the bushes. And his answer was that he had to go to the bathroom. They ended up walking two apart Gibbs and sat on the bench and talked. But then he asked this woman if she would go into the bushes with him and have sex. He tried to kiss her. He tried to. She wasn't having anything to do with it. She was smart.

She was smart and I think she later said, you know, she went along with it to a certain degree because she was trying to keep him calm. I think at that point she realized that this was not a lonely guy who just wanted to talk, obviously. She didn't want to agitate this guy and have him turn violent if in fact he was the South Hill rapist. Right. He told her his name was Kevin Coe. He actually handed her a business card. that had his name on it and his number. Right. He followed this woman to her house.

At one point, grabbed her hand and put it on his genitals, kept pleading with her, asking her if she would have sex with him. This woman, as she got closer to the house, I think she finally broke away and ran and was able to get inside. But it was shortly after this encounter that she started receiving phone calls. And this woman said the calls came in day and night. and she would answer, no one would speak. But she said there would be romantic music.

A little Lionel Richie in the background or something. Playing in the background. Yeah. Now, if her husband would answer the phone, the caller would just hang up. We're talking early 80s. Yeah. There is no star, whatever, to figure out who's calling you or to call them back. There's no caller ID.

I know we talked about it on a previous episode. My mom used to have a stalker. Yes, I do remember that. I would call and eventually they had to get the phone company involved and detectives and much harder back then to figure out who was prank calling you even if it was a prank and not something much more serious which some of these were right and I think the one with your mom was much more serious as well but that guy would do the same thing if my dad answered if one of us boys answered click but if mom answered then he went into his normal routine yeah but for

reason this woman never contacted the police. She didn't report Kevin Coe to the South Hill Rapist Witness program. Now, she might not have thought he was the rapist, right? He didn't try to sexually assault her. Well, I guess you could say he kind of did. But so it's kind of hard. You can't really put a lot of blame on her for not, for not reporting this guy. Gibbs one attack I definitely wanted to cover. It was actually two separate attacks, but on a woman who claimed that Kevin Coe raped her twice. The first incident was in February 1980 and the second assault happened in July of 1980. The 24 year old victim was walking down the street when co-approached her and blocked her path. He told her that he needed sex and then he produced a dildo. He grabbed her by the neck,

dragged her into a yard as was his MO. He fondled her. Then he orally copulated her. got on top of her, he was unable to get an erection. So he ended up masturbating while he talked dirty to her. But then when he was done, he took $40 from her purse and walked away. Isn't that bizarre or strange that he couldn't obtain an erection for intercourse, but he was able to get enough erection to masturbate? Yeah, and I almost hate using the word intercourse because that sounds too consensual. Well, you're right.

But I used it. So he couldn't get a, a whole. hard on for the sexual assault. Yes. But he had no problem what he needed to do, his own masturbation. The guy had issues, right? What's going on in his head? Why is he doing any of this in the first place?

Right. That's one thing. But then, you know, the acts that he's performing and why and it's just, it's something else, man. This woman did call the police to report her assault. So, I mean, I think, you know, we're talking about a lot more. sexual assaults. But I definitely did want to, you know, kind of give the scope, right, of it wasn't just the first six that we talked about. We talked about those specifically first because that's what

he was charged with. Right. But now you find out that there are all these different assaults. They were reported. Many of these victims picked him out of a lineup. He was just never charged in these. But I mentioned this victim was raped twice. Just several months later, she was walking home near a school. She saw Kevin Coe run towards her. When he grabbed her, she screamed. But no one in the neighborhood heard her, or at least nobody came out. He was able to drag her back to the school.

She asked him point blank if he was the man who had previously raped her. And he told her that it wasn't him. He orally copulated her, but he told her Gibbs that if she pretended he was her boyfriend, she would enjoy it more. And here is his messed up, bizarre self coming out again. On top of his, this is normal. You know, what he's doing is not right. Yeah, you're talking about just the words, the things that he says to his victims as he's

assaulting them. Things in his head. They're so strange. No, this woman's not going to enjoy it more. if she pretends that you're her boyfriend. It's not going to work that way. Just a few days before he was arrested. This was on March 1st, 1981. A 17-year-old female was jogging at 10.20 a.m. When she spotted a man in red shorts on a bench, Gibbs, this guy had his shorts pulled down and he was masturbating. Well, later on, this woman picked Kevin Coe out of the lineup as the man that she saw

masturbating on a bench. And I know we talked about it last episode. Why are you sitting on a bench masturbating? Why are you doing any of the things that this guy did? Right. That that kind of goes without saying. But even that, why are you out in public masturbating besides the fact that you want to be seen? Or you want to be seen, but to me it's almost like, man, do you also want to be caught? Because it's 10.20 in the morning and you're on a public bench. with your wee, Willie Winker out, chances are, somebody's going to see you, they're going to call the cops, you're going to get caught. This woman stopped the vehicle.

The man who was driving got out after she told him what happened, and he tried to chase Coe down. This is the one of the guys that took the stand. I mentioned a guy that tried to chase him. This was that incident. He observed Coe getting into a 1980 silver Chevy citation. And again, this is one of the. those instances where when it was reported to police, the license plate that this guy wrote down

came back to Gordon Coe. So again, they're thinking, well, he must have gotten it wrong, right? Gordon Coe is not a late 20s male. He's not masturbating on a bench and then running away. But Gibbs, there's so much more. There were 30 victims of other offenses. These two went uncharged. most of them because the victims could not positively identify Kevin Coe as their attacker. But you also have the fact that the victims were either not shown a physical or photographic lineup or they just couldn't be 100% sure that Kevin Coe was the guy that had attacked them. Yeah. And I think because of that, sometimes the police viewed these victims as uncooperative. Yeah.

I absolutely believe they did when I don't think the victims were uncooperative. They just couldn't be certain. And there's danger there, right? When you're asked to pick your attacker out of a lineup and you're not 100% certain, I mean, go back to making a murderer with Stephen Avery. That woman was so sure in that first attack on the beach that Stephen Avery had assaulted her. She was absolutely certain.

Now, you can make the argument that the police helped her to be certain, but it wasn't him. And he spent a long time in jail because of that identification. Right. Now we have to talk about Robert Keppel. Keppel, famous for his work in the Green River Killer and Ted Bundy cases, was brought in to review the witness statements of all of these different victims. He was a Spokane native, but also considered Washington state's signature. analysis expert, he ended up linking co to 18 rapes solely based on his signature alone.

Right. And we talked about a lot of the elements, the gloved hand down the throat, the talking, the strange questions. I mean, I think all of that probably goes into co-signature gives in total, there's really no way to accurately account for all of the sexual crimes that co-committed. He was initially charged with six rapes. And there were 52 other victims, at least 52, that had been linked to Kevin Coe. That's 58 known incidents, attacks, crimes. Big number. That's a huge number.

In prison, Kevin has refused to participate in any treatment programs. But he did find time to get married. Well, he married one of those pen pals. Sure. Which, who else is he going to marry? Playboy model? that he meets at the grotto? No, he's, you know, his options are limited.

Well, he is limited to whoever writes them. Yeah, that's true. Exactly. Or one of the other inmates in the cells next door. I will say it, as I've said it many times, I don't understand it. I understand writing. Yeah, I get that part too. If you're lonely, you're looking for a pen pal.

Well, some people like to write people in prison, try to reform them maybe. Yeah, okay. Yeah, just, you know, trying to do something good. Well, I think if you're a lonely, person, you're almost guaranteed to get a lot of communication, especially if you send in envelopes, stamps. Right. Prisoners have a lot of time to write.

They're definitely going to write you back. I get that part. But for it to lead to marriage to a guy that is a known serial rapist. No, I don't get that part. But it was pretty short-lived. As most of them are. Yeah. They divorced in May of 1988.

So we talked about this motion filed by the state attorney general in 2006. Because of that, a judge granted the state's motion for an adversarial probable cause hearing. And basically the state would try to prove that Coe was still a violent sexual predator who was likely to reoffend. And it all came down to what we talked about, right? The state wanted to keep him in custody indefinitely or until he was proven to no longer be a threat. And I don't know if that day will ever come. And I don't think the state believes that day will ever come. And the reason why this was even possible goes back to

1990. That's when the state of Washington passed the Community Protection Act. It's a civil commitment statute, allowing the state to indefinitely retain sexually violent offenders after their prison sentences have finished. So it definitely applies to the case of Kevin Coe. So after these offenders have finished their sentence, if they're deemed to be this violent sexual predator status, they're sent to McNeil Island, which houses this special commitment center. The hearing began in September 2008.

And when it began, Coe had already completed his 25 year sentence in Walla Walla. So they moved him to McNeil Island prior to. prior to the hearing, the hearing lasted about four weeks. And after one day of deliberation, the jury determined that Coe was indeed a violent sexual predator. And he was committed to McNeil Island for an indefinite period of time. Now, I do want to play a quick clip from that hearing. So at least we get to hear a little bit from Kevin Coe. Based on the Spokesman Review article,

when they said they thought that's what the rapist did was road buses and attention. act women coming off buses. So what did you do? Followed buses looking for anybody doing anything like that suspiciously. Never saw anything, so quit doing it. Do you think that if you were released that you would be a risk to women who are strangers to you? No. If you were released, would you engage in treatment?

Sexual deviancy treatment? No. Why not? Because I don't believe I need that. What do you think your risk is to re-offend in the future? to offend to offend in the future yes zero so Gibbs I think that's a pretty interesting clip and obviously Kevin co is much older right at this point in time he's already done 25 years in prison I also find the questions to be somewhat not humorous but how else is somebody going to answer some of these

questions right do you think you'll offend again are you a danger to women how many people are going to answer yes to these questions. Well, don't if you want out. Right. If you want to get out. But I think what's interesting is that, you know, he won't submit to sexual deviant type treatment because he doesn't believe he is one. And he considers his chance to reoffend at zero.

The problem with that is he can say whatever he wants, assume he's whatever. you can't deny the 50 some people out there saying that's him and he did this to me right yeah you can't deny that i guess what's at issue is i don't think it's right but his sentences all got knocked down except for the one which ended up being 25 years he served as 25 years right so you know it's almost as if they're trying to put something in place so that even though he served his time, they don't want to let him out because they know he shouldn't, he should have done more time. He should have spent the rest of his life in prison. They're trying to figure out a way to do that. Well, and good for them because in this case, he needs to spend every day in prison.

Yeah. I absolutely believe that Kevin Coe is one of those rare special kind of monsters. Just a person who, you know, all they care about is self-gratification. at the expense of whoever they have to hurt. They just don't care about anybody other than themselves and what they want in that moment. And I think a lot of it has to do with that sexual component, that need, that gratification. Now, he did appeal that decision, but in 2011, his appeal was denied. His mom, Ruth Coe, died at the age of 75 in 1996. And Gordon passed away in 19,

1999 at the age of 82. Pretty hard to find information on his sister Kathleen. She seems to have kept a fairly low profile since the trial. But when she did have the opportunity to testify, she was fully in Kevin's corner, said that she knew he was innocent. But how did she know besides just a gut instinct? Because if you heard all that testimony, I don't know how you walk away thinking that he's innocent. No, I don't think there's any way.

that she knows. I think she believes she knows who her brother is and she doesn't believe that he's capable of doing that. I think that's what family does sometimes. Yeah. It definitely puts a, some blinders on you. Yeah.

There's a, there's a factor there of blinders because, hey, you grew up with this person. Yeah. This was your brother. Maybe he was good to her. I don't know a lot of the dynamics between the two.

Maybe he protected her. Maybe he was a good guy to her. Right. And that's all she's ever known. And she's just thinking, hey, there's no way my brother can be the South Hill rapist. It's not possible. Yeah. We have 50-some individual people saying the same stories describing the same individual.

It is what it is, right? I mean, it wasn't like this was social media time either. I mean, these people didn't know each other. They couldn't get online somewhere and say, let's tell the story this way. Oh, yeah. on this guy. They didn't gang up on him. Yeah, this was just very random individuals. Yeah, no, I'm, completely with you. As for the South Hill rapist Kevin Coe, I think it's pretty safe to say that he most likely will live out the rest of his days on a very small island, McNeil Island in Washington State.

I get the feeling Gibbs that the state will do whatever it has to do. If they got to pass another law, if they have to do another exhaustive mental evaluation, they'll do whatever they have to do. They never want this guy, and rightfully so, to walk free again. I agree with him. And he shouldn't. I think you and I are both in agreement on that. But that's it for the case of Kevin Coe, the South Hill rapist. Before we get to voicemails, next week, big number 200, 200, 200, 200.

I hope everybody's looking forward to it. Yeah. We're going to do a lesser known, very small, one, one crime individual. As is our norm. No, it will definitely be one that people have heard of. And again, you can't please everybody. Some people will like it. Some people won't like the choice.

Some people like the unknown. Are we doing Dexter? You don't know. Dexter's huge. I'm not even telling you. Dexter did a lot. That's how top secret this is. I won't even tell you.

who I've picked. You can't tell me Dexter was not real. There was a real life sort of Dexter. Yeah. That we'll do at some point. All right. Let's get the voicemails, Gibbs. All right.

Responding very quickly to my doggy bandana. That 1%? I still have a chance. So you're telling me there's a chance. Yes. So she works five nights a week. Yeah. Eight episodes a night.

What is that, Gibbs? Beep, beep, beep, boobee, bo, beep. It's a lot of episodes. Okay. It is a lot. Yeah. So, you know, people find it interesting. They think like this is some.

big operation, right? Where if you buy some merchandise and you send an email about the merchandise, it's going to some big company or whatever. No, it comes to my laptop. Exactly. People will ask me on social media, hey, my cup got broken. What do I do? Email Fergie. Yeah, email Fergie and he'll take care of it. Exactly. It's kind of a bare bones operation that you and I run. It's always been that way. It'll probably always be that way. It's just how we work. Right. You know, we answer messages. We answer e-mails. We try to get to talk to as many people as we can on social media. It's not easy.

It's not easy. It's harder now than it used to be. We used to be much more responsive. We just can't we can't keep up. There's not enough time of the day. I think even if we hired somebody to do it, we couldn't keep up. I don't think so either. Hey, guys.

My name is Nikki, and I live in Texas, and I've just recently found your podcast, and I've almost burned through all of your episodes. But I was listening to the Susan Smith episode, I think number 77. and wanted to let you guys know that I do have a daughter who is two and a half, and her name is Trixie Mae. So she was named after her great-grandmother, whose name was Trixie, not Beatrice or anything. It's not short for anything. It is just straight up Trixie. So anyway, keep your own time ticking and stay on this side of the dirt.

Well, we always stay on this side of the dirt. We sure tried to. And tell Trixie, we said, hey. Yeah. I don't remember what we said, obviously. I get a lot of emails, too, about that. older cases and people are trying to give me information. And the problem is I don't remember what you and I said. So it's hard to put it into context. So obviously Gibbs, I'm making the

assumption we said something about the name Trixie. Maybe not too many people are named Trixie anymore. That's what I'm going with. And she's saying, hey, my daughter's name is Trixie. Take your own track there. Hey, Mike and Debbie. Just wanted to say, what's up? I honestly just listen to the um dorothea quente the deaf house family um she came from redlands california and the last several years i spent working out in redlands california and it was honestly an incredibly interesting story to listen to but everything that you guys put out is incredibly interesting as well and i just want to say thank you so much for everything that you do um i'm very much team fergie and team gibby both of you too. I don't know if this is weird, but you remind me very much of my father. I don't know if that's

good or bad or what that is, but my dad is dyslexic and sometimes he has a little bit of trouble, a little bit of trouble like Gibby. So I appreciate it so much. You guys make me laugh. And I love it. Thanks, guys. Keep your own time ticking. Love it. Bye. Well, she started to sound like me there for a little bit. A little bit. But, you know, I take that with a sense of pride. Sure. You know, obviously as long as your dad's a good guy. I mean, I think dads are, are great.

I think moms are great. So if you're saying, hey, you remind me of your dad or even sometimes some of the younger people say, grandpa, okay, I'm a little young for that, but I still get it. You know, some of the things we say, they're a little old school because we're a little old school. Yeah, you are. So we may talk like your dad or we may use phrases like that, but I don't, I think that's a good thing. Hey man, I'm sitting chill over here right now. Don't you worry about it. You think chill is a young person's word nowadays? I don't know. Probably supposed to say something like 30 years ago, maybe. Yeah, probably something different. Neither of us would even know. I'd be closer,

though, because I play Xbox with some of the younger people. Six-grade old. No, I didn't say six graders, but I play Xbox with some of the younger guys. And so I get some of the slang. Right. I'm learning some of it, you know. You're going to be throwing it out here pretty soon. No, it's not really my style. Right.

I think at my age, I'm really not going to change, dude. I wear the clothes that I wear and, you know, I talk the way that I talk. Sometimes you wear the clothes you wear day in and day out. Like, I think you didn't change since last time I was here, man. You're so full of it. But I do not have a huge wardrobe. I will tell you that. You're very simplistic.

I am simplistic in my wardrobe. Always have been, always will be. Gibbs, we had no mail back this week. Okay. So, you know, that's it for another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike and Gibby. Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.