True Crime All The Time - Kristen Gilbert

Episode Date: May 9, 2022

Kristen Gilbert was a nurse who committed at least four murders at a VA hospital in Massachusetts. But, authorities believe she could be responsible for many more deaths, maybe upwards of one hundred. This comes from the fact that during her time at the hospital, Kristen was on duty for more than 100 deaths.Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss Kristen Gilbert. Kristen had a good childhood and many people who knew her had positive things to say about her. The one thing that has come up was that she craved attention and would lie and manipulate people to get that attention. Authorities believe this constant need for attention also had something to do with her murders. Did she murder to get the attention of a man in her life? Or, did she murder while trying to set up emergency situations where she could swoop in and get attention by being the savior?You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for merchandise, contact, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 282 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in True Crime. Mike Gibson, give me, how are you? I'm doing good, man. How about you? I'm doing very well. You and I are trying to get back into the swing of things after CrimeCon. We had a blast. We did. We met some amazing people, some for the first time, some that we've known for years and years and years. It was amazing. It was. But the Red Eye Flight home, trying to to get over the constant thirst and dry mouth I had in Vegas. Right.

That was something I wasn't expecting. The weather was amazing. It's just you could not get enough to drink. Right. It was the way I felt. It was a little parched. Yeah. But awesome time all the way around.

That Vegas tattoo you made me get. That's a little weird. I mean, it is. We're at to figure out how we cover it up or how we do something with it. Well, I thought it was strange that you picked the, the Australian down under, mail review group to get the tattoo of, but I mean, I wasn't going to question you.

You know, I have no response. Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shoutouts. We had Carol Abbas. Hey, Carol. Lena Sunstrom. What's going on, Sunstrom? Delane Perry. Hey, Perry.

Lisa Whitney. Hey, appreciate that, Lisa. Caitlin Nettam. What's up, Nedham? Sarah Michelle Nott-Gellar. Well, what's going on, Sarah? Danielle. Ooh, Danielle.

King Tastyy jumped out of a heart. highest level. What up, tasty. Afra Fowler jumped out to our highest level. Hey, Afra. We had JAMA. What's up, Jamma? Cindy Hudson. Hey, Cindy. Amber Lynn Henderson jumped out to our highest level. Well, thanks, Amber Lynn. Gigi jumped out of our highest level. What's happening, Gigi. And last but not least, Charlene Smith. What's up, Smith? And then we go back into the vault. This week, we selected Fenty Williams. Well, thank you, Fittany. Or Fentney. Or Fentany. However you want to say. But we appreciate all the support we get. We had some great PayPal donations from Jimmy Rice.

Hey, Jimmy. Lauren Porter. What's up, Lauren? And Robin Taylor. Hey, Robin. So thanks to everyone. Gibbs right now on Unsolved, we have an episode out on Thomas Wales. This is a very interesting one.

You know, Tom was an assistant U.S. attorney. He was a guy who kind of went after a lot of white collar criminals. So when he was murdered, I think the FBI started to believe that it was a hit. And obviously we'll get into all the details. But definitely check that one out. All right, buddy, are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time? I'm ready. We are talking about Kristen Gilbert, a nurse who was convicted of murdering four of her patients,

not the first health care worker we've done that turns. turned out to be a serial killer. It scares people. It scares me. And I think it should scare anyone. You know, you're vulnerable. You're in the hospital. Somebody else is taking care of you.

We put a lot of trust into nurses and doctors and people like that. The one thing I will say is I think it's extremely rare, you know, that something like this happens. But it's also extremely difficult to catch because people. People like Kristen use medicine to make deaths look accidental. Yeah, but you're right. You're so vulnerable at that moment when you're in the hospital. It's the last thing you're thinking about.

And who suspects a nurse, right? These are people who kind of went into the profession, you would assume, because they want to take care of people. They're supposed to take care of their patients and 99.999, whatever percent do. Of course. to a great degree. You and I have made no secret, our admiration for nurses. But I will say this.

In total, law enforcement believes Kristen Gilbert is responsible for 60 or more patient deaths. I've seen the number be possibly as high as 100. Man, that's crazy. It's scary. So let's get into talking a little bit about her early life. Kristen Strickland was born on November 13th, 1967. in Fall River, Massachusetts. Her parents were Claudia and Richard.

She grew up with one younger sister. Kristen came from a very normal family. It was said Gibbs that she was a highly intelligent child with a bubbly personality. As a teenager, she babysat neighborhood kids. She even had, you know, like regular clients, one of them, the Moors who lived in her neighborhood. John Moore told the Boston Globe.

She was not hot-headed or anything like that. She was a great kid, a cute kid. She seemed decent and normal, pretty intelligent, sharp. Right? Some glowing words. Sure, it was. Moore also said, though, that a neighborhood spat led to an end to the family's relationship with the Stricklands, but he didn't really go into any detail about what that entailed.

What he did say is that one day they just packed up and moved the Strickland's. Must have been a pretty good spat. Yeah. Now, I've had some run-ins with my neighbors. I've told you about some of them before. Sure, yeah. But nothing to the degree that would make me want to move or make them feel like they needed to move out. You know, this was the early 80s when the family moved to Groton, Massachusetts.

In school, Kristen was popular. She had a lot of friends. She took honors classes. She was in the math club. Love the math club, man. Yeah. And, you know, you took honors classes. Of course. You were in the math club, the chess club. Not only was I in the math club. It was also the president. Oh, not only am I the founder, but I also used the product. Exactly. Kristen went to the prom with the smartest boy in school. So I think, you know, the big thing here is Kristen was well liked. She received a lot of attention from other people during her, her life. What is says, you know, the big thing here is Kristen was well liked. She received a lot of attention. She received a lot of attention from other people during her life. What is, about that is that she developed a need to be the center of attention as often as possible. Now, I don't think that's abnormal. There's a lot of people who enjoy maybe even crave being the

center of attention. But it depends on how you go about to get that attention. Yeah, you know, one of the things that was said about her was to get the attention she wanted. She lied and manipulated people. Okay. That's not a great way to go. go about it. Kristen's family and friends have said that they noticed that when she was a teenager, she became a habitual liar and displayed what they called neurotic behavior. One of the lies Gibbs she told was that she was related to Lizzie Borden. Such a weird lie to tell. Well, it is. And I was thinking about it. And my thought was, is that someone that you really want to be associated with? But then,

you know, it kind of hit me that maybe somebody like this doesn't care where the attention comes from, right, whether it's good or bad. They just want the attention. Yeah, they just seek that type of attention, any attention. Any attention. Now, it's interesting that Lizzie Borden gets brought up here because on Unsolved, somebody leaves a very good voicemail about Lizzie Borden. Yeah. And our case last week involving a man. with an axe stuck in his face. There we go. So listen for that.

Kristen graduated high school at the age of 16, which is pretty early. Not as early as you. No, but I mean. But that's still fairly early. Yeah. Cook her a couple years longer than I did. She enrolled in Bridgewater State College as a pre-med major. In college, she told her friends that her mother was an abusive alcoholic.

For attention. My assumption is that yes, you're going to lie. You're going to manipulate people's feelings through those lies. Right. And so what would that do? It would make them feel sorry for you. You're going to get that attention that you crave. I mean, the problem with that is now when they meet her mom,

they're going to have this negativity towards her mom because they're going to assume that she's this abusive woman. But that's not warranted, right. Right. And at some point, Kristen's father must have found out, and he got very upset that she was spreading lies about the family. I would be upset, too, if I found out that one of my daughters was telling everybody at school that her mom was an abusive alcoholic when we all know she's not. It would be like you saying, I'm not part of MENSA. And then when people meet me, they realize I really am. Yeah, that one's kind of easy to disprove, I think.

Yeah. Kristen's former boyfriends later reported to law enforcement that she was both verbally and physically abusive towards them. They also said that she told them she would end her life if they broke up with her or ignored her. So now you're really getting into, okay, I have to be the center of attention. If you leave me, right, I'm going to hurt myself. So again, is that a lie? I don't know. Is it manipulation? Yeah, I would say it is. I would say it is too. She's saying whatever she has to say so that these people don't leave her, that she doesn't lose their attention. In the summer of 1986, Kristen met her future husband

Glenn Gilbert in Hampton Beach, New Hampshire. They dated for three years before getting married. In June 1987, Kristen transferred to Wachewcett Community College. Then, in Greenfield Community College to be closer to Glenn. They got married in 1988. But Gibbs just the month after they got married, Kristen Chase Glenn around the house with a knife after an argument. Glenn said that he had to lock himself in a room and wait for her to calm down. But Glenn also said he didn't want to get a divorce.

He tried everything he could to keep the family together. The pair had two children together in the early 90s. In 1988, graduated from Greenfield Community College and became a licensed registered nurse. And on March 6, 1989, Kristen was hired to work in Ward C or the ICU at the Veterans Affairs Medical Center in Northampton, Massachusetts. So we're kind of set in the scene, right? Yeah.

Of where she's going to commit her murders, do all this damage. but we're also kind of setting the scene of who she is or who you know who she has been up to this point right i think the most important takeaway for me is you know at her core she is a person through whatever means necessary wants to gain and hold the attention of those around her i think it's very important to this story as we move along sure now in her nursing role it's going to give her that outlet to be the center of attention. Yeah, because now she's in like this savior role, right? You think of a nurse. Yeah. They're there to take care of you. They rush in when, you know, things go really wrong. Hospital reports noted that she was a skilled nurse and a leader

in emergency situations. Gibbs, she was seen as the person to go to. If a patient was in distress, her coworkers liked her and she did a lot to make that happen you know she bought them flowers on special occasions she met with her co-workers for beers after work she even organized the secret santa gift exchange every christmas she coordinated gift drives to help needy families and she also ran what was called the sunshine fund which sent flowers to newlyweds new parents or sick co-workers Sounds like she was pretty busy. Well, sounds like she's the ideal co-worker. Yeah.

But how many times, you know, over the lifespan of TCAT, have we talked about people being something completely different than who you think they are? Oh, so many times. You know, kind of goes back to some of the early days where we said, you know, just look to the left of you in your cubicle, look to the right of you in your cubicle. Okay. One of those two people is either doing. some really bad stuff.

Yep. Or they have some skeletons in their closet that they would be mortified if you found out about. I'm not saying they're serial killers. No. And you probably wouldn't want to see what those killed. No. No, you'd be mortified too if you knew what they were doing behind closed doors.

Exactly. During Kristen's time at the hospital, I mentioned it, right? She killed four confirmed victims. 66-year-old Stanley Jagadowski, 35-year-old Henry, huge. student, 41-year-old Kenneth Cutting, and 69-year-old Edward Squarer. All of these men were hospitalized veterans. Kristen killed her victims by injecting them with epinephrine to cause a heart attack. Now, most people know what epinephrine is. It can actually be used to save patients, you know, suffering from cardiac arrest. But if injected into a person with a healthy heart, it can

cause a host of problems, anxiety, high blood pressure, and a high heart rate and can actually bring on a heart attack. Yeah. So suspicions around Kristen first started in 1990 when she got moved to the overnight shift. When she returned from maternity leave in March 1991, she was permanently assigned to the evening shift 4 p.m. to midnight and Gibbs the death rate for the evening shift tripled. But the overnight rate went back to 1988 level. So, I mean, I think if you were just looking at it based on those facts, you would say, hmm, something's not right here. And the common denominator is Kristen Gilbert. Now, when you're in it, it's probably not that easy to put that all together. Right. After the fact, it's very easy. Of course, it always is. From January 1995 to February

1996, 37 patients died while Kristen was on duty. During her entire time working at the hospital, she was on duty for more than 100 deaths. So, you know, that's kind of where some of these numbers come in. We said it right up front. She's only going to be convicted for four murders. And I say only. That's still a lot. It is. Too many murders. But when you're talking about 40, 60, possibly 100, Well, those numbers are staggering. And the fact that a lot of people believe she's responsible for all those. Well, just take any killer, you know, whatever their confirmed number is, normally you and I would say, well, there's probably many, many more, right?

These are just what you could prove or these are just the ones that you found out about. Most people aren't going to come out and tell you, and by the way, you missed this one, this one, this one, and this one. Right. That's very rare. Now, sometimes you get a Henry Lee Lucas who wants to tell you that he killed everyone. And it turns out, you know, not to be correct. Right. I mean, there was so much death occurring around her. I mean, I think her fellow nurses kind of noticed that and kind of jokingly nicknamed her, the angel of death. But I think it was a joke, right? They liked her. I already talked about that. I don't believe from. the research that these people thought there was actually any truth to what they were saying. I think they really were joking around. There's the angel of death again, you know, because she just happened to be around when a lot of people died. In September 1991, James Peralt joined the hospital police force.

He worked 3 to 11 p.m. By 1992, he began flirting with Kristen. According to the Boston Globe, He later testified during my rounds doing security. I stopped on the wards and I would talk to staff members and Kristen and I seemed to have more in common and we talked a lot. Now, he knew Kristen was married, but she dropped hints that her marriage was not doing well. After a few weeks of flirting, they kissed in the parking lot of a bar. And what started off as a kiss turned into a full-blown affair within a few months. Well, not only did they have the affair, they were also openly flirting with each other while they were working together. And not just while they were working, but in some very strange situations.

Peralt later recounted that at one time she started flirting with him while resuscitating a dying patient. Okay, that's serious business. You have somebody's life on the line. it's not time to go kissy face. Right. Or wink emoji. However, the kids say it these days. I don't know.

Another time when Peralt was performing chest compressions, apparently she made comments about his muscles. She once hopped on top of a patient to do chest compressions. And at the same time, showed off her garters in front of this guy. Co-workers started noticing some of it. some of this Gibbs is kind of hard to hide in a big workplace where there's a lot of people around. You know, a lot of times even when you think somebody's not watching, they are.

Of course they are. Yeah. They started noticing that she was constantly wiping his brow when he was doing things like performing CPR. Other people noticed that she started to slip away from work to spend time with this guy or she rushed to finish her shift. on time so that she could meet up with him at the bar. Well, this is not good for her marriage. No, it's never good for any marriage. And by 1995, hers began to fall apart.

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on camera if you don't want to. It's much more affordable than in-person therapy, and you can be matched with a therapist in under 48 hours. I've tried this service, and I found it very beneficial. And true crime all the time, listeners get 10% off their first month at BetterHelp.com slash T-C-C-C-C-C-T-C-A-T-T-A-T-T-A-T. K. Kristen's first victim, Stanley Jagadowski, died on August 22nd, 1995. He was a retired truck driver and veteran. Jagadowski was admitted for post-operative bowel obstructions on August 21st. Dr. Greg Blackman looked through his charts and his lab results. The patient seemed fine, and he was fully expected to get better. The doctor recommended that he be moved to a nursing home

on August 22nd. Two nurses visited Jagadowski at 8.43 p.m. on the 21st. He was doing well. But after leaving the room, a nurse saw Kristen go into his room with a needle and swab. She said she was going to flush out the patient's IV with saline to keep the line open. But apparently Jagadowski took all his medication orally, right, in the form of tablets. He didn't need any type of injections. Kristen and Jagadowski were in the room alone. And a nurse heard him yell, ow, it hurts. You're killing me.

So obviously Gibbs, this nurse goes towards the room and she sees Kristen exit the room. And it was just a few minutes later that Stanley Jagadowski went into cardiac arrest and died on August 22nd. That's her first no victim. Yeah, I think one of the things that always jumps out at me in these cases we do where nurses and doctors kill is, you know, people are very suspicious of them pretty early on, but nothing is done. And, you know, you don't want to blame anybody. Let's face it. A lot of people die in the hospital. People have heart attacks and die all the time.

They do. So, you know, is it a case where it would have just been very hard to prove? Everybody loves this woman, thinks she's a great nurse. Nobody really wants to connect a person that they respect and like to doing something extremely heinous. It's not your first thought. In the fall of 1995, Glenn Gilbert noticed that. that Kristen started cooking more often. Okay. If my wife starts to do that, I'm going to be a little suspicious. I think you'd be really, you know my wife. Yes. You've heard her talk about it many times.

She hates to cook. She does cook. Not all that often. She absolutely hates it. If all of a sudden she started cooking seven days a week, okay, I'm going to be a little curious. I think add on top of that here, he started feeling as though the meal she was cooking him didn't taste quite right. That would be a little tougher for you to figure out whether it's poison or just bad cooking. Yeah. Oh, wait till my wife hears that. You are in trouble. But on top of that, Gibbs, Kristen told people that it was her goal to have Glenn out of the house by Thanksgiving.

Now, if you're hearing that, you could take it a bunch of different ways. It doesn't mean that she's trying to. kill him, but obviously everybody's going to look back on it. Sure. And think, oh, that's what that meant. I didn't take it that way. Investigators suspected she was lacing his food with diuretics. On November 1st, 1995, James Perrault rented an apartment to be closer to Kristen.

So I don't think there's any doubt. This was pretty serious between the two of them. Oh, yeah. Just four days later, Glenn was extremely sick all day. So Kristen took him to the. he was diagnosed with low potassium and glucose treated and sent home. A week later, he fainted. Kristen showed up at the house on her dinner break. Apparently she wasn't satisfied with his care at the hospital and said she wanted to collect a blood sample to test at work. So she removed two

syringes from her bag. One needle was filled with clear odorless liquid. Kristen said it was sailing. She told Glenn that she needed to flush his vein before drawing blood. When the needle went in, Glenn's arm instantly felt cold. He lost color in his arms and chest. He asked her to stop. Yeah, but she wasn't going to stop. No, she pinned him against the wall and injected him again. He passed out on the bathroom floor. He woke up a few minutes later. Now, Kristen tried to tell him that he fainted when he saw the needle. And she pretty quickly, put the syringes away and said that the blood draw was not going to work. So obviously Glenn lived, right, to tell this story later on.

Kristen's defense would later argue that this incident wasn't even mentioned until she got into a custody dispute with Glenn. They also said, if Kristen was going to kill Glenn, then why didn't she do it when he lost consciousness? this. Well, it's a good point. It's a good point. It's kind of a strange argument to make. You know, hey, our client's not a killer. But if she was going to kill this guy, why wouldn't she have done it during this point in time? It wasn't long after this that Kristen told Peralt, she was being abused at home. And I guess he gave her an ultimatum. If she didn't leave Glenn, he would leave

her. And this upset, Kristen, she walked over to a pay phone called Gle. and said she was leaving him. And that's what she did. She moved out on December 1st, 1995. And just about a week later, on December 8th, Kristen murdered her next victim, Henry Heuden. Hewden got a head injury during a fight at a pizza shop on a military base. I guess he tried to break up the fight. And during that attempt, he was struck on the head with a beer bottle. So that's pretty bad, right? To get hit in the head with a beer bottle. But what happened was he fell on the floor and hit his head again. And it was a bad fall. I read Gibbs that he hit his head hard enough to detach his retina. And he was in a coma for three weeks.

Severe. Yeah, it's a severe head injury. The head injury seemed to trigger or worsen his schizophrenia symptoms. He became argumentative. He started experiencing hallucinations. He was in and out of the VA hospital for medication and monitoring. But I guess whenever he felt better, he would walk out without telling anyone. He did this on December 7th, but was so sick with the flu that he asked his mother to take him to the hospital on the 8th. And apparently there was some big flu epidemic going around the area at that time. Henry's mom didn't want him to be turned away.

So she told him to say that he took pills or alcohol. So that's what he did. He told hospital staff that he took 50 red pills and drank a 12 pack of beer. He was sent to Ward C. But a few minutes later, his mother said that he screamed at her. You can't leave me here. You can't leave me in this building. People are dying around here for no reason.

The patients are talking about it. The staff is talking about it. The staff is talking to the patients about it. All right. So he got a lot of information in what must have been a relatively short amount of time. But his mom believed that he was having a delusion. And a staff member assured her that Henry would be taken care of. So she left at 4.45 p.m.

Leaving Kristen and Henry alone in the ICU. So I mentioned at Gibbs. Henry had schizophrenia. He was also suffering from the flu at the time. But he had no other medical conditions. He definitely didn't have any heart condition. Dr. Blackman examined him and determined that he would make a full recovery. But Henry coded at 5.48 p.m. and was revived with CPR.

On an episode of Snap, it was reported that Dr. Blackman said, it was a great thing. And Kristen responded, I wouldn't be so happy. Dr. Blackman then asked her why, and she said, oh, he's schizophrenic. Henry went into cardiac arrest three more times in six hours. He was resuscitated twice, but the third time his heart was too weak to recover. And he died at 10 p.m. Dr. Blackman had to call Henry's family and tell them that we lost him. And the family didn't have any idea what he was talking about.

I think at first Gibbs, they thought that he ran away. Right. So the doctor had to explain that, no, he passed away from cardiac arrest. I think the family was in shock and rightfully so right he goes in he's got the flu the doctors assure them that he's fine he'll make a full recovery now he's dead so at first they believe that maybe you know a doctor ordered an incorrect medication I don't think the first thing that jumped to their minds was that this was a murder or there was something sinister going on but oh boy was there oh there's no doubt there

was. On December 20th, 1995, Kristen filed for divorce from Glenn. That same day, she attempted to murder a patient named Francis Marrier, who went into cardiac arrest while she was on duty. Kristen was irritated that night when she couldn't leave work early. So it's thought that she poisoned this 72-year-old veteran. Okay, I'll show you, you won't let me leave early tonight, I'm going to take my frustration out on an innocent 72 year old. Yeah. She's doing some real damage here. Well, she's a nasty person.

There is no doubt about that. You know, you and I have talked about people in the medical profession who said that they killed for mercy, right? They saw themselves as angels of mercy. I think a lot of times that turned out to be BS. I don't even think. that comes into play here at all. She's upset because they're telling her she can't leave work early.

How many times did I tell you you couldn't leave work early? Every time. How many times did you try to poison someone? None. Allegedly. Zero. Zero. To me, it's the reason why she went about doing what she did.

But she's upset. She's looking for attention. Not that there are great reasons, really, ever, but these kind of jump out at me. On January 22nd, 1996, Thomas Callahan was admitted to the hospital for pneumonia and pulmonary disease. He experienced cardiac arrhythmia but survived. Kristen is suspected of attempting to murder him. Kristen said that Callahan complained of pain after she flushed his line. One of the nurses checked the sharps or, you know, that biohazard bucket after Kristen left to go on break.

Inside, she found three broken ampules of epinephrine. And this would later earn her an attempted murder charge. But again, I think you do have to question. Okay, were these things reported? And if so, did somebody investigate the series of seemingly bizarre things that just seemed to always happen when Kristen Gilbert was around? I mean, at this point, they're not looking into her. It doesn't seem as though they are.

So, you know, I can only surmise that either people didn't want to point a finger at her because they didn't have proof and they didn't want to, you know, cast her in a bad light or say something that might be damaging to her when they weren't sure. Or people did raise concerns and at this point nobody took them seriously. There's really only a couple of options. on January 28th, Kristen was alone with Michelle Cascombe, who had four cardiac emergencies and died. Now, she was never charged with this death. Bonnie Bledso, Kristen's friend and coworker, kept having to run over from a different ward every time Cascon coated.

She told Kristen that if she had to keep running, she would start wheezing. Bonnie later said that Kristen reached into her pocket and pulled. out what looked like an ampule of epinephrine and asked Bonnie if she wanted something. And again, Gibbs, the thing I will say is all of this kind of looks so easy after the fact, right, to put together. But you don't know who's talking to who. No, you don't. Right?

Someone found these ampules of epinephrine in the Sharps container. Now Kristen's offering epinephrine to this nurse. But who knows who's talking to her? who and they probably have no idea about the two incidents. On February 2nd, 1996, Kristen asked her supervisor if she could leave work early if a sick patient were to die by 8 p.m. She had a date planned with James Perrault. That is a very strange question.

It seems to me to ask someone inside a hospital. Hey, I know we got a lot of stuff going on. I'm not supposed to leave early, but if this person were to die by 8 p.m. Could I? Seems a little strange. Oh, even little. Seems strange. The sick patient was a guy by the name of Kenneth Cutting.

He was blind, suffered from MS, and was admitted to the hospital for sepsis. So he's got a lot of issues. Got a lot of things going on. But his heart's okay. But his heart's fine. Has nothing wrong with his heart. Kristen was the only nurse on duty and Kenneth was the only patient in the ICU at the time. Okay.

So that makes a little more sense, right? There's nobody else there. Right. But he's there, which is the reason why she can't leave. I still think it's strange to ask someone, hey, if this guy dies by eight, is it okay if I leave early? It's really strange to ask. I mean, yeah, it's really strange to ask. I mean, we know that.

Why would you even set yourself up for that? staff noted that even though Kenneth was sick, he was upbeat, he was cheerful, and his health had remained stable all day, up until the point where Kristen asked to leave at 6.30 p.m. Gibbs, Kenneth Cutting died of a heart attack 40 minutes later. He was only 41 years old and left behind a wife and a child. So sad. What's so sad, but also if you're the person that Kristen asked this question to, do you not think it's even a child? You know, not think it's even more strange now that this guy died just 40 minutes after the question was asked. The question by itself is so weird to me.

It is. But do you just mark it down as a coincidence that this guy just happens to die when this nurse wants to leave early to go on a date? For me, that would be pretty hard to do. It would be very difficult. Kristen left work at 9 p.m. She went on her date with James Peralt. on February 4th of that year, patient Angelo Vela lost consciousness after his heart rate reached

300 beats per minute. That's really high. That seems very high. Kristen came into the room and injected some medicine into his IV. Now, he assumed this was a routine procedure. And this is the scary part that we always talk about. You know, when I'm laying there in a hospital bed, I don't know everything that's going on around me. I don't know every little thing that a nurse is doing or injecting or not a lot of

times they'll tell you. Sure. But even if they tell you, you assume it's what they're telling you. And if you're feeling lousy, you know, you're not really here and everything they're telling you. You never remember all right. You may not be paying all that much attention. Vela felt flushed. And he began experiencing stomach and chest pain. Another nurse came into the room and he blacked out. So I'm not not sure why it took this long, but, you know, in this first part of 1996, Kristen's coworkers had become very suspicious of her. When one of the nurses suspected foul play, she began to count the number of vials of epinephrine stored at the hospital, she noticed that the number was decreasing. And when she looked at the records, they couldn't account for 88.

of the 135 ampules dispensed award C between August 20th of 1995 and February 17th of 1996. That's a big number. Huge. That's over half. Of all the ampules that were dispensed, there's no records to back them up. It was said Gibbs at the hospital kept two kinds of epinephrine. One type was packaged in a large pre-filled syringe. designed for heart attack victims.

The other type was 10 times more concentrated and packaged in glass ampules. This was used for anaphylactic shock patients. And I think what really jumped out was that during the six-month period, you know, where these murders were taking place, there was not a single official authorized use for this stronger epinephrine on Ward C. But yet a whole bunch of it was missing. On February 18th, 1996, the other thing it jumps out of me gives is,

you know, all of this is happening in a relatively short period of time. Yeah, we're only like six months into this. Yeah, it is, is a relatively short period of time here. But it was on February 18th that Kristen murdered her final confirmed victim, Edward Squirea. Squireer was a World War II veteran. He was in the hospital because he'd had a seizure

from alcohol withdrawal on February 15th. That day, he stopped breathing and he experienced a heart attack. He died three days later on the 18th. Now, Dr. Blackman thought this was very unusual because, as he later said, seizures do not usually result in cardiac arrest. So this is going to make him and maybe some other people at the hospital, somewhat suspicious. Yeah, we already said there were some nurses that were suspicious. One nurse, Kathy Ricks, was very suspicious of Kristen. She counted three ampules of epinephrine when Kristen came into work. Kristen was the only nurse working that evening.

Edward went into cardiac arrest at 5.07 p.m. and died three days later. his medical file shows he didn't receive epinephrine as treatment. But when Kathy Ricks opened the medicine cabinet, the three vials were gone. And she later found them in the Sharps bucket. There's a pretty good evidence right there. Evidence that something is going on. Right. Something's not right.

Yeah. On February 17th, another patient became nauseated and felt a burning sensation after Kristen flushed. His line. So I said, you know, I'm not sure why it took so long. Again, I hate to second guess people because I wasn't there. You weren't there. All of this stuff, I think, is easy to Monday morning quarterback. I think it's much tougher when you're in the middle of it. Yeah. Every day's going on. Just your normal routines. Hospitals are busy places. Yeah. I mean, it's just constantly keeping busy. And you're not going to have time to think about, wonder what's going on over there.

Well, and at a certain point, okay, you're suspicious. But do you want to ruin someone's career over a suspicion? Or do you want to cast doubt or cast or paint someone as a murderer? We're not talking about someone stealing here. We're talking about, you know, someone taking people's lives. It's very serious. At what point are you willing to step forward and say, say, I think this person is doing X.

Right. Because it's really kind of hard to come back from that point, right? It is. And I think there's a lot of people also that don't want to be that person that. They don't want to get involved. Yeah. Look, I'm here to make my paycheck. I'm coming in. I'm going to do my nurse thing. Here's the other thing, Gibbs. If this woman's a killer, okay, what's going to happen if you're the one that rats her out? Yeah, you could be next. Does that go through somebody's mind? Maybe. possibly, but eventually three nurses. John Wall, Kathy Ricks and Renee Walsh, went to management to report their concern about the increase in heart attacks in Ward C and the decrease in epinephrine

supplies. Less than two weeks later, Stephen Plant, a special agent for the Department of Veteran Affairs, got a call from the hospital. Hospital management expressed concerns that during the last year and a half, the amount of codes and deaths in the ICU had doubled. Nurses came forward to report one of their colleagues was killing patients. So like I said, they might have been hesitant up to a point, but now that is gone. They're coming out, you know, full bore and saying, we believe this woman is killing people. So this guy started an investigation and all he had was a name, Kristen Gilbert. What they did was cross-reference suspicious deaths with her work schedule.

Okay. Seems like a good first step, right? Pretty easy to do. Sure. And what they saw was that when she worked in the evening, there was a spike in desk. When she was moved to day shift, there was a spike in death. Police found that Kristen was on duty when 37 of 63 patients died in Ward C.

they also found out that empty ampules of epinephrine were found near the rooms where her patients died. And it wasn't long after this that Kristen left the hospital permanently. She said she hurt her shoulder at work and she couldn't work anymore. Now, she kept tabs on the investigation through James Perl, right? He still worked there. And he answered her questions because as he would later say, he really wanted to believe she was innocent. I think he loved her.

Of course. Yeah, he wanted her to be innocent. And if you really love someone, pretty tough, I think, to believe in your heart that this person is a murderer. Kristen was questioned for the first time on March 8, 1996. Her attorney argued that her presence was always a coincidence. and her numbers for codes were artificially inflated because nurses always asked her for assistance on their codes. And I did mention that.

She was like the go-to person. Kristen became upset with everyone at the hospital. She didn't understand why her coworkers didn't trust her. She felt as though they were trying to ruin her life. But over time, Gibbs, even James Perl, started to believe the, rumors. So he began hiding details of the investigation from Kristen. And at a certain point, investigators approached him and told them that, you know, if he ever wanted to fulfill his dreams of becoming a police officer, he needed to work with him. I think by this point in time,

Kristen was just angry with the world, right? The hospital, her coworkers. And then James Pearl. She accused him of spying on her. At one point, he said she punched him in the testicles during an argument. That's a low blow, literally. That's a low blow. It really is. And for those of you that have never been punched in your testicles, do it now. It is not a good feeling.

It was also said that she tried to prevent him from going to an interview with U.S. attorneys. So her relationship unraveled. right with this with this guy James but she approached him at the bar one night and they started arguing he left got into his car i i don't think he wanted anything to do with this argument maybe it was the testicle punching probably that he was looking to avoid a repeat of that so but christin ran to her car shifted into reverse and backed up towards him she stopped just a foot of from his car. And like she had done many times when she was younger, she basically told him that she was going to end her life. Well, she needed that attention, always needing that attention.

Well, I think maybe, yeah, I think that for sure. I think maybe Gibbs there was also a component of she needed him. I think she probably knew that she was in deep shit and that she needed an ally. Right. What better ally to have than a person. at the hospital that can tell you kind of what's going on. Right. Well, he wasn't doing that anymore. So it might have been about the relationship. I think it was probably more about the attention and maybe trying to keep him on the hook,

on the line so that she could use him to help her out. In June 1996, a federal grand jury began an investigation into the case. The next month, Kristen was admitted to a civilian hospital after. overdosing on feorenal tablets. I've never heard of those. I don't, to be honest with, I don't know what they are. She was admitted to a psychiatric unit the very next day.

She called James that night and said, you know I did it. I did it. You wanted to know, I killed those guys. And then she hung up the phone. Just that simple. Click. Imagine getting that call?

Well, you know, like I said, there's a guy who I believe was in love with her. In the beginning, he didn't want to believe. the rumors. Obviously something changed. He got more information. He started to believe them. And then at a certain point, I think he knew.

This woman was dangerous. She most likely had done some very bad things. But what would be one of the first things you do after you got that information? Me personally? Yeah. Well, I think I'd go to police. I'd call police at the very least. And I think I would do that.

And I'd want to make sure she stayed away from me. Oh, yeah. And I think he did go and file for a restraining order against her. You know, she'd already punched him in his way of those. Yeah. And so I think that being physically abusive, now she's admitted to murdering four people. Yeah. At least.

This is a person that I might want help from the police to maybe help keep her away from me. at the very least I'd be wearing a cup around at all times. I remember those. From your wrestling days. From my wrestling days. That's right. When you used to wear the tights, the required uniform. We call them singlets.

Singlets. I called them single tights. Back when you were on Team Foxcatcher. That's exactly right. Yeah. So James filed for restraining order. Four days later on the 16th, he testified against Kristen at a grand jury. jury hearing. As all this was going on, right before the grand jury hearing, Glenn Gilbert,

Kristen's ex-husband asked the police to come to the house and search a cabinet where Kristen kept some of her things. When police did, they found a book called the Handbook of Poisoning. Okay. That's not some Betty Crocker type stuff that you have in your cabinet. Not sure how many people would actually need something called the Handbook of Poisoning. unless you were out to do some, some bad things, put that together with the rumors that she'd poisoned and killed people. Okay, the puzzle pieces are starting to fall into place. It's definitely adding up here. On August 20th, Kristen was placed in a psychiatric ward in Arbor Hospital for the third time that month. She eventually got out. The next month, she showed up at Glenn's house and tried to attack

him with car keys. Hey, car keys can be dangerous. They can't. be. I was thinking the same thing. On September 26th, Kristen called the VA hospital to make a false bomb threat. She called using a pay phone. The officer working the desk heard a computer generated male voice say, there are three explosive devices in building one. In 25 minutes, I'll see you in hell. So this lady is something else, man. I tell you, a lot of times I think about when we do these types of stories, man, I'm glad I've never experienced someone like this in my life, right? You get into a relationship, maybe you don't know that person all that well, and they turn out to be someone like Kristen Gilbert. Yeah. But you're looking over your shoulder. You don't know what this woman is

going to do day in and day out. She's capable of. Well, we know what she's capable of. Well, we know, but Right. Maybe he, yeah, you're right. What could she be capable of? Now, Kristen made this call to throw off the investigation, but she actually ended up helping the agents. For one thing, she didn't know that she was being followed and a police officer actually watched her make the phone call. The police traced the call from that pay phone to the VA hospital. The agents drafted a search warrant. They got it signed and they knocked on her door. Kristen was home alone. The agents told her she was not allowed to take anything out of her house. She told them that they weren't going to find anything. The agents didn't actually know what they were looking for. They were just looking for any type of incriminating evidence. One agent found the jacket that she was wearing when she made the call. Inside the pocket was the operating instructions for the voice changing device.

Another investigator found a talk boy in a bedroom closet. I don't know if you remember what a talk boy was. You probably wouldn't because you would have been too old. I was too old to have one of these. I remember, I think, seeing them advertise, though, it was a toy that would change the sound of your voice. I just do that naturally. Well, you're a master.

Yeah, I mean, I talk like this or I can die. You can do all kinds of things. Yeah. The agents also took medical books, computer books, journals, and drug books. in the drug book, Kristen had flipped down, turned down the page on epinephrine. As people like to read, we call that dog gear in the page. That's a good term. And I think you're using it 100% correctly.

So kudos for that. Kudos is a dog in a movie, you know, Stephen King's. Well, how about an atta boy? I'll give you an ad boy. How about that? police also found what looked to be suicide notes in the apartment one note said well over the past few months i have changed i was a fairly likable independent woman that ended up a weak dependable dependent unlikable person who can't make it through two hours never mind a whole day without crying

i've become completely unpredictable impulsive and self-destructive i don't really really like this person. The Boston Globe reported that in a letter postmarked September 30th, Kristen wrote to parole. It should be over when you get this. It's kind of funny because earlier this week, it was you that convinced me this was the right choice. I was out driving one night and I drove by the VFW and saw your car. I couldn't help myself. I pulled in. I saw you in the window playing darts, but I couldn't go in, so I just watched you a while. I never lied to you about loving you. I meant it from the first time I said it.

So I think different people could read those notes and probably take them in different ways. Could you make a case that their suicide knows? I guess you could. You could also make a case that, you know, one is just kind of the thoughts of someone who's going through a really rough time. The other one is a note to someone with. with whom they're having a relationship problem. Either way, I think it's definitely a cry out for help.

Yeah. She wants attention. Yeah, I would say that too. So they've got some evidence, but it's all circumstantial, and it's not enough for a murder charge. What they did have was enough to charge Kristen with making the bomb threat. On September 30th, Kristen was court ordered to be admitted to Bay State Medical Center. there she was diagnosed with borderline personality disorder.

On October 8th, Kristen was released from the medical center and arrested. But she didn't really spend much time in jail. It was less than a week. She was released and ordered to live with her parents in Long Island until her trial. And her trial didn't begin until January 7, 1998. On January 27th, she was convicted of making a false bomb threat and sentenced to 15 months in prison. in April 1998. So it took a while.

She got 15 months, but this was all around the bomb threat, right? None of this had anything to do with murder, attempted murder, anything like that. But autopsies were performed on Kristen's victims after their bodies were exhumed. And these autopsies found that the victims died of epinephrine poisoning. Now, their causes. of death in hospital records was a heart attack. Edward Squireer was exhumed on November 27th, 1997. Charles Jagadowski was exhumed on July 13th, 1998. Lethal amounts of epinephrine were found in both men's remains. And this really was the key evidence that authorities needed to put

forth murder charges against Kristen Gilbert. Yeah, now they can finally move forward. You know, they've been wanting to do this, now they can finally make it happen. Well, and we've talked about this in other cases, right? So she's in prison for an extended period of time, not forever, but for a fair amount of time that had to have given police at least the feeling that, well, she's not out there hurting anybody else. We can take our time. We can build our case.

We can exhum the bodies. It sounds like that's what they did. on November 24th, 1998, Kristen was indicted on three counts of first degree murder. She pleaded not guilty to three counts of murder, two counts of attempted murder, and assault charges. On May 14th, 1999, a fourth charge was added, the murder of Charles Jagadowski. Kristen was tried in a federal court. And one thing that I found interesting Gibbs was that, you know, Massachusetts doesn't allow

capital punishment. But because these crimes were committed on federal property, she was subject to the death penalty. It's a VA hospital. That's right. If she had committed these murders in a civilian hospital, there would be no chance at getting the death penalty, at least in Massachusetts. What a different twist when you think about that way, right? Because like you said, she was in a federal facility. So it's a federal crime.

Well, I think to most people, it's a big difference. Yeah, it's huge. life versus death. No, I'm sure that's not something she thought about while she was carrying out her murders. Oh, I better be careful. I'm on a VA hospital, which is, you know, federal property. I'm sure that didn't enter into the equation. Kristen's trial began in October 2000 with jury selection. Attorneys gave their opening statements in November. The prosecution argued that none of the victims had heart problems when they entered the ICU. They said Kristen falsified medical records to cover her tracks. She committed the murders because she wanted attention from her former lover, James Perrault.

Kristen didn't like working hard, but she was intelligent and she excelled in a medical emergency. She thrived on the attention she got at the hospital and was willing to do anything to get it. Defense attorney David Hoose described Kristen as a normal woman. who suffered emotional stress after her grandfather's death, the failure of her marriage and her affair. He said, I don't know what caused her to break down and spiral to the depths of where she is today. I don't know that anyone could tell you the answer to that,

but distress did not lead her to murder. This defendant did not snap. People do not snap for a period of seven months when they kill four human beings. Yeah, so he's saying, hey, she didn't murder these people. Didn't happen this way. What else is he going to say? You can't say that she did murder them.

Nope. Got to come up with something. Yeah. And basically the defense's main argument was that there was a reasonable doubt based on a lack of evidence. You know, they pointed out that these patients were elderly, they were weak, they were at risk for heart complications. They died on their own. They also added that the hospital's record keeping system was so. poor that they could not say definitively how much epinephrine was used on the ward.

On January 23, 2001, Glenn Gilbert testified that back in 1996, Kristen called him to confess to killing some of the patients. He said, she called to tell me to contact the investigators. She wanted to save the taxpayers a lot of money for this investigation. And she was basically confessing. He said he believed her confession and got a restraining order and filed for custody the very next day. The defense objected, as you can imagine, they would. They asked for a mistrial. The judge denied a motion for a mistrial, but did tell the jury to disregard Gilbert's characterization that Kristen confessed. But then came James Perrault. He testified that Kristen confessed to at least one murder to him on July 10th, 1996.

So I get it as a defense team, you don't want these guys sitting up there saying, yeah, she confessed to murdering these people to me. They also claim that the confessions weren't valid because Kristen would have made them while hospitalized and suffering from stress. Yeah, you can make that claim. But if you believe the witness, why would she say something like that if she didn't mean it. She's suffering from stress. She's delusional. Yeah. I'm playing the defense here. But I get it, right? At least with Gilbert, the jury is told to disregard, but can they disregard?

You know, that's a question that I always have. They're instructed sometimes to disregard certain testimony. But at the end of the day, when they deliberate, are they able to throw it out? Especially when you have a second guy come up and say, well, she confess. to killing these guys to me as well. In the prosecution's closing argument, they said these seven victims were veterans. They were vulnerable. They were the perfect victims.

When Kristen Gilbert killed them, she used the perfect poison. The defense tried to argue that Kristen was falsely accused by coworkers who were upset with her that she was having an affair with parole. They said she was scorned by her peers and her coworkers, you must understand how rumors about what was going on in Kristen Gilbert's life, affected, colored, and stained everyone's opinions of what was going on in Ward C.

But on March 14, 2001, Kristen Gilbert was convicted of three counts of first degree murder, one count of second degree murder, and two counts of attempted murder. Now you got to deal with sentencing. and remember this is federal so she could get death. Yeah, and on March 26th, the jury voted not to impose the death penalty. On March 22nd, a judge sentenced Kristen to four life sentences without the possibility of parole, plus an additional 20 years for attempted murder and some of the other lesser charges. And I don't think Gibbs, she deserved anything less.

I don't think this is a woman who should ever see the light of day. I agree with you. Should ever be allowed around other people again for what she did. Defense attorney Paul Weinberg told the press, it is easier to incite good and decent people to kill when their target is not human but a demon. Kristen Gilbert is not a monster. She is a human being. She's a human being. She's also a monster.

Yeah. If you ask me. Do what she did. But I get what this guy is saying, right? The prosecution painted her out. to be a demon. And so it was easier for the jury to convict her. You know,

what's a defense attorney going to say? Yeah. You know, it's kind of what I come up with a lot of the time. Still, end of the day, she killed innocent people by using her power, her power,

her position of a nurse. Yeah. Christine Duquette, Henry Heuden's sister said, the life sentence wasn't her first choice, but I'm happy it's over. It's over and done with finally. I'm not disappointed.

Kristen was transferred to the Carswell Federal Medical Center in Fort Worth, Texas in May 2001. On July 25, 2003, Kristen dropped her appeal for a retrial after the Supreme Court ruled that prosecutors would be allowed to pursue the death penalty during a retrial. So that's a big chance you're taking, right? It is. Everybody wants a retrial. But once you find out that. you're rolling the dice, not only could you possibly be convicted again, which that wouldn't be the big thing. You already have a conviction, but this time you could get the death penalty.

Then you really have to make a decision. Right. Do I want to roll that dice? And obviously, she did not. Smart choice for her. You know, as we wrap up this case, you mentioned it already, but Kristen Gilbert targeted vulnerable men and women who were sick and seeking help. She used her position as a nurse to kill. I mean, these were people who thought they were safe at the hospital. Yeah. As we all do, it's the reason why we go to a hospital. We're in need.

We need somebody with medical experience to take care of us. We want to feel safe. We should feel safe. Yeah, the nurses are there to help. and protect not to harm and destroy a human life. Well, the problem that these people has, there's no way they could have known that they were being cared for by a serial killer. Now, I do want to say, you know,

there was a lot in the research about the fact that some psychologists do not believe. Kristen actually intended to kill her victims. They believe that, you know, she wanted to, call code. Sure. So she needed her patience to be in a state so where she could call a code. And then she jumps in, takes on the savior role and is looked at as, you know, the hero. I could maybe agree with that if it was just one victim.

But once that happens to one victim, would you not say, oh, I shouldn't do that? Yeah, it's not working the way I thought. Exactly. but to do it again and again. And I mean, like we said, potentially the count is a whole lot higher than what she was convicted of. Now, some hospital staff believed that she was trying to demonstrate her nursing skills by creating these emergency situations where none existed. And I think some people do look at it and say, okay, just like you said, yeah, she probably most likely killed a bunch more people. Right.

but many of her patients did survive cardiac arrests and other medical emergencies. So why is that? Maybe she didn't have the opportunity. Maybe there were other people around. Maybe she didn't feel as though it was the right time. It was like we said, others. And I think especially the prosecution made a lot about Kristen creating these emergency situations to get the attention of James Purore.

I don't know if I buy that one as much as some of the other theories because I feel like she already had his attention. Right. Hospital staff has speculated that she's responsible for 80 or more deaths and over 300 medical emergencies. I think the problem with this case is I don't think we'll ever know the true number of Kristen's victims, the number that she killed, right, she caused to die. And the number of people that were harmed or almost died because she was messing around.

She was, you know, doing things for attention. I think we can feel safe saying it was definitely more than what she was convicted of. Yeah, I don't think anybody doubts that. I think most people are on board with that. You know, what is the true number? It's pretty tough to say. One of the things that I'll go back to Gibbs is, you know, just kind of looking at the number of deaths. Okay.

It rose every time she switched shifts. And it declined when she was no longer on that shift. That's more than a coincidence. It says a lot. It said, yeah, to me, that speaks volumes. But again, we have another person in the medical profession taking life. when everything were taught. And granted, like I said, 99.

whatever percent of medical professionals believe in that credo, do no harm. They go into that profession because they want to help people. You know, my daughter, my youngest wants to be a nurse. Right. She wants to help people. Yeah. And I truly believe she will. She'll be a great nurse.

My mom was a nurse. She was an amazing nurse. And so, yeah, we're always blown away by some of these individuals that turn out to be serial killers. We can't understand why they do what they do. We look at them as, you know, boogeymen or whatever, the stuff of nightmares. This is very scary as well in a different way. As we've said before, when you're in the hospital, you're so vulnerable. And when you have a person who is employed and I,

hospital, whose job is to save lives, to make people more comfortable, to make sure that everything goes smoothly. And they have a different agenda. And that agenda involves killing people. That is, that is a very, very scary thing. It really is. But that's it for our episode on Kristen Gilbert. We got some voicemails, Gibbs. You want to check those out? Let's hear. Hello, Mike and Gibby. This is good old Renee, giving you a call again. In your latest episode, you were talking. talking about prisoners putting things in their rectum. And I used to work with those who were incarcerated, so they would teach me different slang words.

And that is known as your prison purse or your prison wallet. I just thought you might want to know. All right. Keep doing what you're doing. Thanks. So some great insight from Renee. Yeah. And just like Gibby's real wallet.

Don't be talking about my prison wallet. Yeah, I better leave that one alone. Yeah. Hey, guys. I'm Oliver. I'm 24 from Stockbridge, Georgia. I work at Publix as a baker. I just want to let you guys know. I know a lot of people say they appreciate the humor and chemistry you guys have.

And I do too, but I think more than anything, would draw me to your podcast over the past week is how respectful you guys are about these cases and how respectful you guys are. about these victims, well also maintaining that lighthearted feel, especially because as a trans and myself, I recently went back and I listened to the Ed Gein episodes because, of course, I just started so I missed them. And y'all handled them so gracefully and so tactfully in a way that a lot of other people that do True Friend podcasts might not have. And I just want to let you guys know how much it means to me as a trans person. And I do have a suggestion for a case. As far as I

could tell y'all haven't done it yet. Maybe I'm wrong. You can let me know. But the murder of Marion Parker, it's, of course, a very sad case because any time a child is abducted or murdered, it's tragic. But it's a very interesting case that I think you guys would enjoy looking into at the very least, even if you don't talk about it. I can't recommend it enough. I appreciate everything you guys do. I hope you have a lovely day, a lovely week. I hope everyone listening has a lovely week. Thank you guys so much. Well, thank you very much for that voicemail. And, you know, the kind words. They mean a lot to us. We do. We do try to be respectful. I mean, are we going to say everything perfectly all the time? No. No. And I think it's very hard for especially people who talk as

much as we do and sometimes off the cuff to say things perfectly. But it's one thing that we've have strived to do from the very beginning. You know, yeah, are we going to badmouth some of these killers, yeah, because they deserve it. But we're going to be respectful to the victims and and just, you know, kind of go about our business that way. Hi, my name is Taryn. I was wondering if you guys could guess where my accent was from. I wanted to say thank you to you guys for getting me through the toughest years of my life. I lost my dad two years ago on May 5th and he loved true crime as well. So I kind of feel like I'm a little close to him when I'm listening to you guys. Thank you for everything that you do. You're amazing. Wow, that was very

heartfelt. It is choking us up a little bit. It is. I lost my dad. This is a little bit more than two years too. So I understand where she's coming from. Yeah. Yeah. So we love you and we're glad that we've helped you in any way, but also glad that especially glad if there's in just the smallest way he gives, were helping her feel closer to her dad. I mean, that's such a good feeling. I don't think people can fully realize what that means to us. Yeah. As far as the accent, I was detecting something southern.

I'm saying Arkansas. You're going to say Arkansas. Yeah. I was thinking like southwestern more. Like, I'm going to say, see, that's not really southern. I was going to say New Mexico for some reason. Really? Yeah, I don't know why.

I really have no idea. You don't. I don't. I'm throwing darts at a dartboard. This is a wag, man. It is. Yeah, I really have no idea. So now she's got an email or she's got a call back and let us know.

Gives, we did have mailbag. Okay. All of this comes from CrimeCon. It does. And we had a ton of stuff, but we had, you know, a fan. I cannot remember her name. But she made us a bunch of potato candy. Oh my gosh.

It was so good. It was very, very good. Like five, ten pounds. It was a lot. It was very heavy. I gained on my weight back. Our good friends, Matt and Fran, showed up for the second year in a row. And this time, Matt brought us some handmade knives, which are very, very cool.

Almost had a keister that to get it on the plane. I know. I heard you almost forgot about it. Yeah. It would have had you up against the wall checking out your prison wallet. Prison wallet. I was going to call it a purse wallet for some reason. That jumped into my head.

That's not right. But anyway, we appreciate it very much. we had a great time. So Gibbs, that's it for another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.