True Crime All The Time - Kristin Durgan

Episode Date: July 24, 2023

On July 19th, 2008, the body of the missing James Durgan was found in the Arkansas River in Colorado. Investigators found evidence that led them to suspect his wife, Kristin, and two accomplices of his murder. They soon uncovered a case involving a $500,000 inheritance and affairs on both sides. Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss Kristin Durgan and the murder of Jim Durgan. Jim filed for divorce in June, a month before he was married. But he and Kristin were trying to rekindle the relationship even though both had significant others. Kristin's boyfriend, Andrew Tanner, was jealous, opening the door for talk of murder.You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 342 of the True Crime All The Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in True Crime, Mike Gibson. How about you? Hey man. I'm doing well. How about yourself? I'm doing fairly well. Yeah.

I may or may not have concussed myself yesterday running into the back of my wife's SUV door. I think you probably might have something going on. I've been experiencing some symptoms, but I'm trying to just. see how it is, gauge it. Yeah. I think I'll be all right. Yeah, I hope so.

You and I also talked on our Patreon weekly episode about the LISC updates, the, this guy Rex Harriman, they arrested. Yeah. And right now, there should be an episode out on criminology. About that. About that, if you want to hear it. Yeah. With morphine.

Get some good details. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shoutouts. We had Jamie Blanks. Hey, Jamie. Monica Abner. What's going on, Monica? Lang Morgan. Hey, Lang. Olivia Brininger. Well, thank you, Prininger. Terry Dasher. What's up? Dasher.

Heather Norwood. Hey, Heather. Emily Markram. Well, hi, Emily. Adam McAllister. There's Adam. J.B. Sparks SP. Well, that's a whole mouthful to say. It is. J.B. Becky Lou Forbes. Hey, Becky. Barb reporter. What's going on, Barb. Carol Laura. Hey, Carol. Stephen Brand. Hey, Stephen. Teneo Walters. Thank you, Walters. And last but not least, Wenzie. Winsie? Not Wendie.

Wendy Sanzo. Well, hey, Wendy. I got ahead of myself there. And then if we go back into the vault. This week, we selected Maggie Kimber. Hey, Maggie. So we appreciate the new support, the continued support. We also had a couple of great PayPal donations, one from Ann Kelly.

Hey, Ann. And a very large one from Carrie Bindlin. Well, thank you so much, Carrie. Which is amazing because she's, is the one that sent us in the stuff a few weeks ago. Yeah. It's what it was this thinking. Gibbs right now, we have an episode out on Unsolved where we are talking about the Fisher family murders. You know, this is one of those where, you know, a family is murdered. The dad goes missing and the investigation kind of, you know, goes on, but obviously is focused on him. Exactly.

And all that good stuff. So it's a good listen. Yeah, yeah, make sure you check it out. All right, buddy, are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time? I am ready. On July 19th, 2008, the body of a missing man named James Durgan was found in the Arkansas River in Colorado. Investigators found evidence that led them to suspect his wife, Kristen, and two accomplices of his murder. They soon uncovered a case involving a half a million dollar inheritance. and affairs on both sides.

So we're talking about Kristen Dorgan in this episode. Half a million dollars is quite a bit of money. It's a lot of money. There's a lot of things you can do with that. We've seen people killed for less. You and I were talking earlier about the $1 billion power ball. Oh, yeah. Oh, my gosh.

Can you imagine? Things that can be done with that type of money. I wonder how many people, because we are taping on the day, that the Powerball is selected. I wonder how many people go to bed just dreaming of what they would do. I know I do. Yeah. When it gets really high like that.

Sure, it probably involves me, right? Oh, yeah. My first thought is, how much am I going to give Gibby? Yeah. James Glenn Dorgan was born on December 19th,

1970, in Phoenix, Arizona. His mother died when he was young, according to the news outlet, the mountain male. Jim graduated high school in 1988. He went to Phoenix College from 88 to 89. But after a few months in college, Jim realized it wasn't for him.

And I think there are a lot of people like that. Maybe they're on the fence. Should I go to college? Should I not? They go. And some quickly realize, this isn't for me. I can't do four years or five or six now, I think. Of this.

So his dad introduced him to a man who worked for what was then called Northern Telcom, now, nor tell communications. And this man helped Jim get a job. Jim worked as a field technician and installed and maintained networking equipment in gear for phone cable systems. In an interview with the mountain mail, Jim's father, Larry said,

he was just a hardworking son. I was very proud of him. He just wanted to provide for his family. And he did that. In 1990, during a weekend in Phoenix, Jim was set up on a blind date with Kristen Tregdy. Kristen was the daughter of a multi-millionaire.

Her dad was an inventor. I've always wanted to be a multi-millionaire inventor. I always wanted to be a multi-billionaire inventor. Oh, so you're really shooting for the stars. My problem is I either have these great ideas with no thought as to how to make them a reality or have these really great ideas that I later figure out somebody's already done. Yeah. I just didn't know about it.

He didn't know about it. There's a lot of good inventions out there, though. There is. There is. So obviously, they go on this blind date. They hit it off. Kristen and Jim got married in Las Vegas in July, 1992. In the beginning of the marriage,

Kristen traveled with Jim on work trips, which helped them maintain a happy marriage. In 1994, Kristen was diagnosed with bipolar disorder. She was on medication the majority of the time. And I think you and I have talked about bipolar disorder. Yeah. On more than one episode, I've known some people with it. I worked with a guy not at the place you and I worked at, but in the job I had before that.

Yeah. And he was a great guy. But you could absolutely tell when he was on his medication and when he was not. Yeah. I've experienced that myself. And he would sometimes come to me and say, man, I forgot to take my medication. And you could tell because he was a different person. their son Andrew was born in 1995.

And then later they had a daughter named Elizabeth. Kristen was happy to be a stay-at-home mom. Jim traveled often, but he was a loving father when he was home on the weekends. It was said that he was earning around $90,000 a year. Good money. That's good money today. Yeah.

But you know, you want to talk about 1990s, that's a chunk of change. It was really good money. Now, I think a lot of people are put in this position. though. I have this great job. I'm making a lot of money, but I've got to be away from home for X amount of days during the week. So yeah, you got something nice going on, but you're also giving up a lot.

Yeah, it's a tradeoff for sure. It really is. In 1998, the family moved to Salita, Colorado. Jim said they were trying to set their roots. As time went by, Jim's busy work schedule took a toll on the marriage. it was hard for Kristen to be alone all the time. I think it's hard for anybody to raise your kids, little ones, especially, you know, all by yourself. And adding the fact that she was bipolar, you know, that could have made a little tougher on her. Could have played a factor. But I think to your point, it was almost as if for the most part she was a single mother. Sure.

Because he just was gone so much. Another problem that they had was with finances. Jim told his dad that he left money for Kristen to pay the bills, but they weren't being paid. So he had to come up with extra money. Well, that definitely will stress the marriage. Yeah, anything financial like that. But it was also said that Kristen struggled with a gambling addiction.

One of the main reasons they moved to Salita was to keep her from going to casino. She would later testify that she had, accrued over $200,000 in gambling debts. Jim put her in rehab twice, but it didn't work. She continued gambling. He had to take a second mortgage out on the family home. That's pretty rough. Yeah.

So, I mean, I think at first we said, okay, they're struggling with finances. This is in a different stratosphere. When you're talking about gambling debts to the tune of a couple hundred thousand dollars, having to take out a second mortgage. I mean, that's a little bit more of a than a strain. Oh, absolutely. And you're trying to relocate your family

purposely to be away from casinos. That's a big problem. By March 2008, the couple decided to separate. Kristen continued living in the house in Salita. Jim had started dating a new woman and moved in with her at her home in Jackson Hole, Wyoming. He came to visit the kids on the weekend.

but when he did, he stayed at a hotel. So it sounds like he's seeing the kids the same amount that he was before because he wasn't home very often. But now he's living in Jackson Hole, which I think you and I have both talked about. I hear great things about that place. Oh, yeah, really nice place. Jim agreed to give Kristen the house and a monthly payment. He would also pay off the cars and give her half of his retirement funds.

She would have primary custody of the children. So, I mean, I think when you look at it from an overall perspective, it seemed like a pretty amicable divorce. Yeah, it seems pretty fair. Around May 2008, Jim learned that Kristen's new boyfriend, Andrew Tanner, had moved into the house. Kristen had gotten a job at a local pizza hut either in late 2007 or early 2008. And that's where she met Andrew Tanner. The sources are kind of a little different. on when she got this job.

However, Jim and Kristen rekindled their marriage. According to several sources, they were intimate with each other on Mother's Day, 2008. So it was like they thought they could fix their marriage. But at this time that they thought that they were seeing other people. I think it's kind of hard to fix your marriage when you're still both. Yeah. Seeing other people.

Jim told his dad a week before he went missing, that he loved Kristen and was trying to keep. the marriage together. And that part I understand. I think a lot of times people realize that maybe they're not right for each other. They can't, you know, come to an agreement on their differences or they can't work it out. Right. So they, they, they, they, like, I just, I, I, I still love this person so much. And, and I'd love to rekindle it. Maybe sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes they, you know, I think some people think it's going to be, you know, different. Greener on the other side. Yeah. And It's not.

Yeah, it's not. Jim Durgan was last seen at the Holiday Inn Express in Canyon City, Colorado. At 7.40 p.m. on July 10th, 2008, he had a dentist appointment and a scheduled visit with his kids on July 11th. When Jim missed his appointment and this visit with his kids, Kristen reported him missing. Now, initially, there was no foul play suspected. On July 14th, Detective Mike Jollafee drove to the. Holiday Inn Express in Kenyon City. Jim's car was in the parking lot.

The front desk clerk said Jim asked about the swimming pool because he was going to bring his kids to the hotel. The detective checked Jim's room and saw that it was undisturbed. It looked like Jim had walked in, put his things down, and then immediately walked out. Well, maybe on that day he was in a hurry to go meet somebody or do something. He could have been. It could have been. I think the big thing is, you know, there's not some.

big crime scene. Right. There's not even a thought that there was a struggle or anything like that. Detectives went to talk to Kristen. She told them Jim was supposed to pick up the kids and take them for the weekend. She drove around near Kenyon City along the Arkansas River to look for him in spots where he might have gone fishing. Kristen noted that she and Jim were working on reconciling, but she found out he had a

girlfriend. Apparently, she found a letter from a woman named Tara. This woman was Tara and Barbara. She was Jim's girlfriend in Wyoming. Police and reporters found an online blog where Tara detailed her seven-year relationship with Jim. Her blog is called The Future Mrs. Waddles. It shows pictures of her and Jim to gather. Some blog entries detail trips to Utah, Oregon, Wyoming, and North Carolina. You can still see this blog online. The last post was made in 2021. In a blog post on March 31st, 2008, Tara wrote, how long have you been together? I guess you could say it's been a while now, seven years, two months, and 18 days to the very minute since it's now 4 p.m. And that was the time of our first date. So, I mean, I think we have to talk about the timing here. Jim and Kristen didn't split up until

early 2008. Right. And most of this story, pretty much all of it takes place in 2008, but according to Tara, she and Jim had been seeing each other for seven years. So going back what, all the way to 2001. Yeah. And then when we talk about Kristen's first interview, she admitted that she also had an affair with a young man named Andy Tanner, who was 22 years old at the time. She told the detectives that after they were intimate in May, Jim told her if she would break up with Andy. He would end things with terror. This reconciliation, though, only lasted for a day. And then she got back together with Andy. And it was after that that they agreed to get divorced. Court documents show that Andrew Tanner filed for divorce from his wife in June 2008. So there's a lot

going on. Yeah, there's a lot of people getting divorced. And a lot of people seeing each other behind spouses' backs and this and that. Detectives wanted Kristen to establish her alibi. She said that on July 10th, she was working until 1045, 11 p.m. She came home and went to sleep. At that time, she was working at a different restaurant. Detectives brought in Andy Tanner for questioning. Andy said he and Jim didn't have any problems with each other.

He was also working on July. my 10th. And he said his shift ended around the same time as Kristen's. And he went home after. At this time, he was working at a Burger King in Salida. Detectives got timesheets from both of their employers and everything pretty much lined up with their statements. So nothing jumping out at this time. No, but, you know, it's, it's kind of one of those things where, you know, you can account for somebody up until a certain time. But then when they say, well, I went home and went to bed. Yeah. How do you really corroborate that unless there's someone else at the home who can vouch? Yeah, back that up.

Or back that up. On July 15th, 2008, detectives drove down Highway 50 along the Arkansas River. They found Jim's vehicle at the Lone Pine Recreation Area in Fremont County about 30 miles west of Canyon City. He had a parking citation dated July 11th the day he was reported missing. On July 18th, Tara Barber entered the Canyon City Police Department to talk to the police. She said Jim left her home on the morning of July 10th. He flew to Colorado and called her when he landed. He had already purchased a ticket to return to Jackson Hole and planned to come back on July 13.

Tara admitted that Jim was not always honest with her about his life. As she mentioned in the blog post, she met Jim in 2001 on an online dating site. They started a relationship, but she didn't know that Jim was married for two and a half years. They broke up once she found out. In January 2008, Jim called her on a work trip. She nursed Jim back to health when he had pneumonia, and they rekindled their relationship. But she said she wanted Jim to get a divorce. So again, a lot going on with these people involved in this story.

Oh, sure. But at least we're getting a little more details around it. But if this is true, I mean, think about what she went through. You meet someone. You hit it off. You start a relationship and you find out two and a half years into it that the person's married. And has two kids.

It has two kids. Yeah. I forgot about that part. Tara admitted that she was frustrated that Jim was still close to Kristen. However, she was ruled out as a suspect because she was in Wyoming when Jim went missing. On July 19, 2008, kayakers found Jim Durgan's body and the Arkansas River near Parkdale. His body was found 35 miles downstream from his car.

Jim was identified by dental records. His autopsy revealed that he died from a gunshot wound to the head. So that pretty much takes accident out of the mix. Now we have a murder. Or suicide. Or suicide. There's really only two options, I think, at this point. Investigators reached out to Kristen and Tara and told them Jim was dead.

Detectives asked Tara, who was? would have wanted to kill Jim. And she told police to look into Andy Tanner. Tara knew that Andy and Jim disliked each other, which contradicted Andy's earlier statement. Andy was like, I don't have a problem with Jim. He doesn't have a problem with me, but clearly. Other people didn't see it that same way. Exactly. Detectives talked to the people who were working with Andy on July 10th. One coworker said he left for work for 30 minutes to an hour. He told her he was helping a friend with a car stereo and gave them a ride and asked his coworker to cover for him. Okay, well, that punches a little bit of a hole in your alibi.

You know, we go back to detectives getting the time sheets. And the time sheet says that he was there the entire time. Well, now it comes out that he was gone for 30 minutes to an hour. Yeah, but I remember those days when I used to have to punch the clock. And he always had somebody you work with that if you needed to do something, they'd be a normal cover for you. Oh, sure. You know, so. Oh, I'm not, I'm not saying I didn't do the same thing back in the day. What I am saying is that I never had to use it as an alibi to get me out of murder charges.

Yeah. So that's when it really comes into the play. The police brought Andrew in for questioning on July 22nd. He invoked his right to counsel. When they looked at Andrew's phone records, detectives saw a repeat number on the night Jim went missing and then on the following morning. They identified the number as

belonging to 29-year-old Brian Folsom. Brian was on parole for armed robbery at the time. He used to work at the pizza restaurant with Andrew. On August 27th, detectives obtained a search warrant for Brian's home. He and his girlfriend were

brought in for formal interviews. Brian's girlfriend Marlina Viesman told Snap that on July 10th, Brian told her that he had to go help someone with their car stereo. She said that her BS flag went off. She also said that Brian was gone for four hours. When he came back, he went to the bathroom and started washing his hands. Now, I think we all have a BS meter, a BS flag, whatever you want to call it. Of course. It's pretty interesting, though, to hear his girlfriend say that she thought

something was up right at the beginning. Yeah. I noticed that your BS senses never really go off around me, which is good. No, with you, it's tough to really tell the truth at any given moment. You're like an enigma wrapped up inside of a mystery. Tangled up in something else. And tangled up and so I can't remember the whole quote. Detectives questioned Brian, who it was said, confessed quickly and easily. He told them that Andrew Tanner paid him to kidnap Jim Durgan on July 10, 2008. from the lone pine recreational area and take him to a remote area called Dirty Gulch. Near Cota Capsi, Colorado, Brian tied Jim to a tree with phone cables,

handcuffed his hands to the tree, and duct taped his eyes and mouth shut. He left and met with Andrew. Brian claimed that Andrew went back to Dirty Gulch alone and killed Jim, then disposed of his body. Brian was paid $1,500 to $2,000 to participate in the kidnapping. And I hate to keep saying it, but man, it seems like such a low amount of money. It does. It really does. If somebody were to come to you and say, will you do something that could land you in prison for the rest of your life?

I'll give you $1,000 or $1,500 or $2,000. I mean, I don't know. I feel like you got to be really desperate. I would think so. For money. It's not worth the risk. No. And you shouldn't be doing it anyway, obviously.

You know that. But if you were the type of person that would do something like that. It's such a low amount. Yeah, for the risk. Investigators also learned that Brian and Andrew had driven to Jackson Hole, Wyoming. In an earlier attempt to kill Jim, but they couldn't find him. While the police were looking into this, Kristen called a report that she had information about Andrew Tanner. On August 28, 2008, she told the police that Andrew killed.

Jim out of jealousy. And, you know, this jumps out at me is very strange because they'd already talk to her. And she didn't save it. Right. Now, Brian confesses Andrews brought in and all of a sudden she's coming forward and saying, oh yeah, Andrew killed Jim. Yeah, the heat's on and she's trying to protect herself. That's what it seems like.

Yeah. But the police learned that Kristen was going to get $500,000 if Jim died before their divorce. was settled in court. When the police confronted her with this information and Brian's confession, she confessed that she lured Jim to the lone pine recreational area. She told Jim her car had broken down there and the kids were with her. So he needed to come to the recreation area to pick them up. But she was never actually there. Instead, Brian Folsom drove her vehicle to the site and was waiting to kidnap Jim. It is such a devious plan. for, you know, a husband who at the very least loved his kids, I think still loved his wife,

as we've kind of talked about, you get this call that your family is in trouble. Right. What person's not going to drive out and help? Yeah, she used herself and the kids as bait. Yeah, absolutely. Kristen Durgan, Brian Folsom, and Andrew Tanner were arrested on August 28, 2008. at the time, it was reported that more arrests were expected. Canyon City Police Chief Dan Scholl said,

according to the Pueblo chieftain, a cadre of people have tried to cover up some of the investigation in this case, and they know who they are. They have a short time to come forward, but not too much. That's the way to get somebody that's sitting on the fence to do something. It's kind of a brilliant move, if you think about it. Now, I love the use of the word, cadre. You're really breaking out your vocabulary there. An arrest warrant affidavit written by

Fremont County detective Mike Jolla indicated that Kristen started changing her story almost immediately. After she reported Jim missing, he wrote that Kristen stammered and had unusual pauses when he asked her to recount her last conversation with Jim. Kind of like what a kid does when you catch him in a lie? Yeah, it sounds like that. I mean, at the very least, he started to have some suspicions, right, that she wasn't telling the truth or the whole truth. The affidavit said, according to the information supplied by Brian Folsom, that Jim was jumped and put in handcuffs by Tanner and Folsom. Tanner then drove to Fremont County Road 12, then veered off onto a country road.

He forced Jim to walk to a group of trees. Brian said he and Tanner left Jim tied to a tree. But Tanner returned by himself later and allegedly told Jim, I am going to take your soul. Okay. Pretty ominous. Sure it is. Now this will differ from his later testimony. He said Tanner shot Jim three times in the head with a 22 caliber pistol.

He dumped Jim's body in the river. Tanner later called Brian and said it was done. Then paid him to keep his mouth shut. Well, didn't pay him enough, did he? No, sounds like he folded very easily, right? As soon as detective started questioning him, and August 20th search warrant indicated a strong presumptive positive, reading for blood in Andrew and Kristen's vehicles.

A large amount of blood was found at the Spike Buck wreck area in a bathroom and on the ground leading to the river where Jim's body was dumped. A bloody shoe print was found in the restroom. the police also found a bloody electric blanket. On September 19th, all three were charged with first-degree murder and other counts. On April 27, 2009, Kristen Durgen pleaded guilty to second-degree murder and second-degree kidnapping. She agreed to testify against Tanner and Folsom in exchange for a 54-year sentence. So she cut a deal.

She did. Not a great deal. I mean, 54 years. Well, but it's second degree instead of first degree. Yeah, that's true. So 54 years versus what, probably life at the very least. On June 19th of that year, Brian Folsom pleaded guilty to second degree murder and second degree kidnapping. He also agreed to testify against Andrew Tanner.

On July 10th, Kristen Durgan and Brian Folsom were sentenced to a combined 102 years in prison. So the breakdown for each, Kristen was sentenced to 48 years in prison for second degree murder with five years of parole. She was sentenced to six years for second degree kidnapping with three years of parole. Brian Folsom was sentenced to 48 years in prison with five years of parole plus six years for kidnapping with three years of parole. So it sounds like they got the exact same sentence. According to the Pueblo chieftain, Jim's father, Larry Dorgan spoke in court and said James Durgan was my only son. The heinous murder of my son was by far the most devastating time in my life. I'll never understand why it had to happen, why such a deceitful betrayal of my daughter-in-law took away the comfort of my only son.

I'm haunted in the quiet hours of the night. I can't erase the suffering. He endured in the final hours of his life handcuffed to a tree. I am sure he worried for the safety of his children. And this will have a tremendous. tremendous impact on his children. The biggest tragedy is that he loved her. So I can't give it the same gravitas that obviously his father did, but you can imagine. Oh, yeah. The emotion that he must have been going through as he was, you know, saying these words. Well, because they wanted the potential inheritance of that $500,000. Yeah. I think Andrew wanted to be with her. I'm assuming he was also expecting to maybe get some of that. Sure.

As if they were together. And then you have Brian who essentially committed these acts for, what, $2,000 or less? Yeah. Tara Barber presented a video tribute of Jim. She said, I will cherish the moments we shared. I would like the court to know Jim was loved by his family and mine and by me. And just because other individuals were through with him does not mean the rest of us were. Kristen declined to speak, but Brian Folsom made a statement saying,

I just want to apologize for my part in this crime, and I hope the family can forgive me one day. Well, like we've talked about, some people are very forgiving. I don't know that I would be. Yeah, I mean, it'd be tough. I mean, especially with him, even though he didn't commit the murder, he was the one that kidnapped him, tied him up, and left him there for Andy to come. Shoot him. But I guess at least you can say that he apologized in a statement.

She didn't even have the whatever you want to call it to stand up and make a statement. Yeah, she should have said something to his family and maybe something that one day when her kids were older, they could hear how their mom reacted to what she did. Opening arguments in Andrew Tanner's trial took place on August 17, 2009. The defense alleged that Brian Folsom. was the killer, not Andrew Tanner. Deputy DA Chip Cutler told the jury that the Duergens were getting a divorce. Both Jim and Kristen had affairs. Andrew Tanner saw Jim as an obstacle to having Kristen, the house, the kids, and the money. So I get the defense's tactic, right? There's another person

involved. How do you know that it wasn't Brian Folsom that actually pulled the trigger? And I think that the DA is trying to point out all that Andrew Tanner had to gain. A lot more motive there. A lot more motive for him versus, you know, Brian Folsom. Public defender Bill Martinez told the jury is reported by the Pueblo chieftain. You cannot base a verdict of guilt on the testimony of these two less than angelic devils. And obviously he was referring to Kristen and Brian. And I think that's always tough.

when you have multiple people involved in a crime. And in this case, as in like a lot of others, it's almost as if one or two people cut deals and agree to testify against one person. And sometimes it seems like whoever goes to the authorities first wins. Whoever says that they'll testify. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's true.

According to Cutler, the plan to kill Jim. was likely formed in June 2008, a man named Danny Knox told the police Tanner asked him to help kidnap someone for $1,500, but he refused to do it. First of all, I can't imagine anyone coming to me, one of my friends, and saying, hey man, will you help me kidnap someone? That's a no right off the bat. Yeah. But then don't insult me by throwing out $1,500.

I'm not going to do it anyway, but you're really trying to undercover. me here. Yeah, that's why when I ask you favors, always say, hey, can you help me with this getting this individual because I know he's got a lot of beef jerky. He's sitting on a lot of beef jerky. It all can be yours. We just need to throw him into this van. Yeah, a lot. It had to be like a warehouse full of beet jerky. And even then, you know, I wouldn't do it. No. Tanner then asked Folsom to go on a trip to Wyoming with him on the way back. Tanner showed Folsom. a revolver and admitted the purpose of the trip was to kill Jim. He then asked Folsom to help kidnap Jim in Colorado. Cutler said that after Tanner shot Jim, he told Kristen what he did.

And she instructed him to get rid of the evidence. So here again, you know, we've got this Brian Folsom guy who's kind of an enigma to me, agrees to do this kind of heinous thing for a very low dollar amount. But before that happened, he went on a trip. Now, did he know that he was going to be part of a trip to, to kill Jim? Obviously, it didn't happen. That would be kind of shocking if you weren't told ahead of time as well. More than shocking. Well, I don't know because ultimately he agreed to do what he did for $1,500. So I'm going to go out on the limb and say judgment was not, you know, one of his, one of his strong suits. Martinez argued that Tanner was guilty of being manipulated by Kristen Dorgan and covering up a

crime to protect himself, but he was not guilty of kidnapping and murder. Tara Ann Barber testified on August 18th. She described James as a passive person who preferred not to confront anyone. She testified about their relationship history. And I think, you know, a lot of people would say that about you. you know, passive person, doesn't really like to confront people. No. You know who they wouldn't say that about?

You. It's me. I know that. Because I actually really enjoy a good confrontation. You do. I don't know if it's sick or not, but I like to get into it with people. You like to. I don't seek it out.

But if it happens, you're going with it. I'm more than happy to go with it. Since you brought it up. Let me tell you how I really feel. Yeah. On July 7th, 2008, the date. that Tanner and Folsom allegedly went to Wyoming to kill Jim, Kristen called him several times. Tara testified that she was upset by this, but Jim told her that Kristen would let him have the kids

on July 10th, and she would bring them to him in Canyon City because she wasn't working that day. The last time Tara spoke to Jim was around 7 p.m. on July 10th, she talked to him before he got out of his vehicle to check into the Holiday Inn Express. former CBI lab agent and evidence collection expert Jacob Book testified that there was no blood or prints found inside or outside of the vehicles belonging to Jim, Kristen, or Andrew Tanner. He found a box of alcohol swabs in the glove box of Tanner's vehicle and said alcohol would probably clean up any skin DNA present in the car. So what's he saying? That he used these alcohol swabs to wipe everything down. under cross-examination, he testified that he found a 40-caliber bullet and a 45-caliber

ammo box with live rounds inside Tanner's car, but there were no 22-caliber casings or live rounds. Book collected suspected blood samples at the Spike Buck Recreation Area where Jim was put in the river. He collected twigs in a larger branch from the dirty gulch site near Cotapaxi, where Jim was tied to the tree and killed. Book testified there was quite a lot of suspected blood at the base of the tree. CBI analyst Barbara Ray later testified that at least five blood samples found at the crime scene

matched Jim Durgan's DNA profile. So not too hard to figure out that he was definitely killed while he was handcuffed to this tree. Absolutely. No arguing that. No, I think the forensic science proves that. The question is who shot him, right?

The state is saying that it was most definitely Andrew Tanner. He had the motive. Tanner's defense attorney is saying, nope, it wasn't Andrew. It was Brian Folsom. Brian Folsom started his testimony on August 19, 2009. He said that in late June 2008, Tanner asked him if he would go to Wyoming to kidnap Jim Durgan. Tanner said he wanted to kill Jim and put 10 bullets in his face. He also said Jim was abusive to his kids. So it does sound as though Folsom knew even before they

left for Wyoming what they were going to do. Brian was supposed to kidnap Jim and Andrew would shoot him. Tanner brought a 22 revolver with six rounds and a box of ammo. But they couldn't find Jim in Wyoming, despite the fact that Kristen was telling them where he might be. Folsom testified that he did not know Kristen and hadn't seen her until they were arrested. Wow. Okay. So that's interesting. It is. I mean, it tells you that he is basically doing this for Andrew in exchange for the dollar amount that we talked about. Cure cash. I don't know for sure, but he probably didn't even know anything about the $500,000. I'm going to guess he didn't because I think if he did.

Let me get some of that too. Yeah, unless he's just not that smart of a person. Oh, I'm not throwing that out the window either, though. Tanner told him that Jim was coming to Salita the next weekend to see the kids. He wanted Brian to kidnap Jim because he wanted to shoot him. Tanner said he would get Jim's life insurance policy if he got hit, but the body had to be found. Andrew Tanner took him to the Lone Pine Rec area and showed. him where to park. Kristen was supposed to call Jim to tell him her car broke down and he needed to come there

to pick up the kids. On July 10th, 2008, Folsom took speaker wire, gloves, duct tape, and fingerprint remover with him. A Burger King employee testified that he picked Brian up at his home and took him to the state park in Salita. Kristen's vehicle was parked there. Inside Folsom found the keys, handcuffs and a handcuff key. He drove to Lone Pine, parked Kristen's vehicle, and popped the hood to make it look like the car broke down. It does sound like they definitely involve too many people into this plot. Into this plot.

You shouldn't plot. You shouldn't do these things. Right. That's a given. But if you're going to do it, I realize he's got to get out to this car. But you're going to involve a random person that you know. who works at Burger King, the Andrew knows that works with him at Burger King.

And then it's going to come out later that this person is killed. You don't think maybe that's going to come back to bite you. Exactly. Or is it just what you said? You know, either these individuals weren't that bright or at the very least, they weren't thinking. They weren't thinking ahead.

They weren't, you know, thinking of all the ramifications of their actions. Once Jim arrived, Brian kidnapped him. He put Jim on the backseat floor. Jim asked to be let go. Brian told him to relax and said he wasn't going to hurt him. He then drove the dirty gulch, walked Jim 100 yards, and handcuffed him to a tree.

He threatened to stab Jim if he fought him. Jim offered him $300 to let him go, but Brian said, I can't do that. Once he made sure Jim could breathe, he told him to stay calm and then left. He didn't come back with Andrew Tanner. Brian said he didn't come back to Dirty Gulch until he later took the police to the location. What he did testify to was that after he left Dirty Gulch, Brian went to Burger King to meet Tanner. After Brian drew a map of where he left Jim, Tanner crumbled it up and ate it. Okay.

So now you're trying to get rid of evidence or you're trying to think about evidence. She can't just rip it up, shred it. Burn it. Burn it. You have to eat it. Tanner took Jim's car keys and wallet. He told Folsom to get rid of the wallet. So he threw it in the trash can at a Walmart.

Tanner drove him home that night. He showed Brian a 22 revolver and said he was going to shoot Jim with it. The handgun was not found. And we mentioned that they did find some live ammo, but none of it was 22. and they never found the gut. Several weeks later, he met Tanner at Sands Lake. Tanner paid him $1,000 in $50 bills. It still amazes me.

Well, we said $1,500 to $2,000. Yeah. Now he's testifying that he only got $1,000. And he was offered $300. To let the guy go. Just let me go. He probably could have said, you know what, give me a little bit more.

I'll make it happen. Yeah, but, hadn't he already committed a crime? Yeah, that's true. Technically, he had already kidnapped. Yeah. By that point. But on the stand, Brian Folsom admitted that he told several different versions of what happened.

Brian said he once owned a 22 caliber gun, but it had been gone since 2003. And he wasn't allowed to own a gun because he was on parole. Andrew's attorney, Bill Martinez, questioned the validity of Brian's statement that he was willing to kidnap someone and use drugs, but not own a gun. Brian said it wasn't my idea to kill anybody. And okay, I guess a pretty smart idea by the defense attorney. So you're saying you're a stickler for the rules when it comes to violating your parole by owning a gun, but you're okay with kidnapping, doing drugs and all that other stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Brian Folsom's testimony ended on August 25th, 2009. He testified to a lot of things, but the biggest thing was that it was Andrew Tanner

who killed Jim Durgan. Under question, he said that as far as he knew, Kristen Durgan set the whole thing up. Bill Martinez asked Brian about a surprise witness, Katrina Skanga, who on August 21st contacted the Mountain Mail with alleged information about the case and gave a statement to the police Folsom had an affair with her. During July 2008, Skanga claimed that Folsom admitted to taking Andrew back to the dirty Gulch area. Folsom said he didn't recall this. According to Skanga, Folsom told her he watched Tanner, shoot Jim in the face three times.

Folsom testified, no, I didn't. So was he just bragging to her or did it really happen the way she described it? Did she make it up? Or she just make it up. Yeah, I don't know. I'm not really sure if it would have mattered whether he went back and watched the shooting or not. Would that have nullified his deal? Would it have changed, you know, the way that the prosecution went after him?

Because he'd already admitted to doing everything else. Right. Yeah, it probably wouldn't have as long as they had the person that pulled the trigger. On August 25th, a pretext phone call between Kristen and Andrew Tanner was played in court. The call took place in August 2008 and was recorded by law enforcement. The following quotes come from the Pueblo chieftain and the Mountain Mail. Kristen told Andrew that detectives knew. He went to Wyoming and they knew he bought a phone there.

Tanner said he bought the phone because he forgot his. Kristen said she was scared of losing the kids. Tanner asked her why she was worried and said, You didn't do anything wrong. Kristen told him she would be arrested. For stuff I didn't do, you did it. And then Andrew asked, what do you mean, I did it? Kristen suggested Brian was telling the police what happened.

And Andrew said, he went to Wyoming with me. I don't even talk to that man. Why don't they come get the people they are pointing out? I take responsibility for my actions. You know that. Later on in the conversation, and she asked him, why did you hurt Jim? Why?

It was just so mean. As the conversation continued, Tanner said, I know what this is about. Kristen said, do you think I would try to get you to incriminate yourself? And he answered, yes. Kristen said, I love you, but I'm not going down for you. At the end of the conversation, Tanner said he knew. She was trying to get him to incriminate himself.

He believed the phones at his workplace were tapped. Well, and he was right. Oh, he was right. But, you know, this is kind of like something you would see in a movie. Right. Where the police are asking someone to call someone or wear a wire. And they've got to get them to admit on tape or on the phone what they did. Because if you just heard that conversation and had no other context, it would make it sound as though Kristen is asking him why, you know, he killed Jim.

because she didn't want that. Yeah. Like she's trying to save herself. Sure. And make sure that he gets blamed for it. And obviously he picked up on it. On August 26th, Bill Simpson, the landlord of the complex where Brian Folsom lived,

testified that in August 2008, he received complaints that Folsom had mounted rotating cameras on the building. He was also laid on rent. Folsom told him not to mess with him and said, I've killed before. And apparently this guy didn't take him very seriously until he read reports that Brian was arrested for murder. And that's when he reported this conversation to the police.

The jury watched an interview between Tanner and two detectives from July 22nd, 2008. He and Kristen were interviewed separately that day. According to the Pueblo chieftain, Andrew described Jim as non-confrontational and straightforward. There would be no reason. a person would ever hurt him. He later said, I think something bad might have happened. I think he might have actually had misfortune. Yeah, he had misfortune.

Sure, he did. The misfortune of thinking that he was helping out his children who were stranded and then running into you guys. The detectives asked Andrew and Kristen who they would suspect if they were working the case. A detective told Andrew that Kristen said she would. suspect him, Andrew said, I didn't do it. I didn't have the opportunity to do this. I wasn't there. I wasn't involved. You guys are telling me that you think I murdered him or designed his disappearance. I wasn't involved in either. Kristen started her testimony on August 27th. She testified about the

divorce and their financial agreement. Kristen said that her gambling problems started when she was 16 years old. And her gambling addiction ultimately led to about $250,000 in debt. She went to rehab in 2005, but started gambling a few months later. Jim took loans from his 401k and used debt consolidation to pay off credit cards. But she said she was still in about $20,000 debt when he died. So, man, he must have done a really good job of paying off these debt. Sure did. Kristen testified that she met Andrew in 2007, and they became close.

He moved into her home in May 2008. In June, they began talking about how easy it would be if Jim was not around. But it wasn't a serious plan. This is what she said, according to the Mountain Mail. Andrew Tanner later gave her two coupons. One coupon was for a back rub, and another was for anything she wanted, which she understood to mean he would kill Jim Durgan for her. Hey, baby.

Here's your coupon for your back, Rubbin. Here's your other coupon we want me to knock off your ex. All the days when you could get away with giving the coupons. Just a coupon. Just a coupon. D.A. Tom Ladoo asked her if money was a motive. Kristen answered, I knew by killing Jim. I would be entitled to all his assets.

The idea to kill Jim became a. definite plan when she revealed to Andrew that she had sex with Jim and May. Andrew was upset and called Dano to get things in order for the killing. According to the Mountain Mail, Dano backed out. So Andrew contacted Folsom. Andrew told her he bought an unregistered gun in June for $100. She never saw this gun. They planned to kidnap Jim in Alamosa, Colorado, and planned to kidnap him in Wyoming but failed. Finally, they planned the kidnapping in a lone pine wreck area. So we already knew that they had tried one time previously. Now we find out that they tried twice. She testified that at around 11 p.m. On July 10th, she met Tanner in a parking lot near her workplace. He told her, we got him. He asked her if

she was sure. She wanted Jim killed. Kristen said, yes. Very cold. Yeah, if that is how it went down. extremely cold. But, you know, in these situations where you essentially have two people pointing the finger at another person. Now, she's incriminating herself quite a bit. And so did Brian Folsom. The one thing that they never said was that they were the killer. So I took it as they could basically say almost anything they wanted as long as they weren't

the ones who actually pulled the trigger. I mean, she's even saying that the guy came to her and said, do you still want this man dead? And she said, yes. Yeah. That is just cold blood. It is. That's your kid's father. And a person who, you know, you loved for however many years. She said she went home afterwards. Andrew arrived at 1145, changed into dark clothes and said, everything is going as planned. She slept until 5 a.m. Tanner returned home at that point. she asked him what happened and he said he went to dirty gulch where jim was bound to the tree jim was duct taped but when he got there jim had chewed through the tape and was screaming and crying tanner said that he hadn't planned on talking to jim but jim blurted out that christin had other affairs so why would tanner be different christin only told tanner about one previous affair but she admitted at trial that he was actually her fourth affair. Well, as far as their marriage goes, it seems like these are two people that probably should

have never been together. Yeah, I mean, she had four affairs. He had at least one that lasted seven years. That's a very long time. Andrew, when he went back out, asked Jim if he changed his beneficiary, Jim said no. And when Jim said that, Tanner told him he was going to kill him. Jim was given an opportunity to give a message to his.

kids. He told Tanner to tell the kids to stay in school, find jobs they enjoyed, and live happy lives. He then told Tanner to tell Kristen he was sorry. Tanner shot Jim four times. One grazed Jim's arm. He called the three shots to Jim's head insurance shots. Andrew waited for him to bleed out, wrapped him in plastic bags, and put his body in the river. Tanner dug a hole in an alley and buried evidence. He claimed he threw the gun into a lot. Like, you know, and a lot of times we don't get this type of information. No, we don't. We just know that one person killed another individual.

I mean, this is really harrowing stuff. When you talk about, you know, Andrew telling Jim, I'm about ready to kill you, do you have anything you want to say to your kids? That has very, very tough stuff. And how hard would that be to think about what I want my kids to know? Because I'm about ready to die. According to the Pueblo chieftain, Kristen said she reported Jim missing to go along with the story because it would look suspicious if I didn't report him missing. During her first interview on July 15th, Kristen told a detective she drove around looking for Jim.

She testified part of the story was that we both drove down the canyon trying to find a sign of Jim or his car. I forgot my part of the script and told them I went by myself. So they had even planned out what they were going to tell the detectives, wrote out, you know, kind of a script. Yeah. But she forgot what she was supposed to say. So, you know, I mean, this is pretty important, right? I mean, you're involved in this major crime. You probably have like a maybe a sentence or two that you have to memorize.

At least. And she can't remember what to say. But it's also, I would think, a pretty nerve-wracking situation. Yeah, of course. Yeah, I mean, you have to fill the pressure of the police in the room and knowing that. You're lying. Yeah. And you got to pull it all.

Andrew was being interviewed at the same time and said they went together. And so, you know, he was pretty upset that she forgot. Kristen admitted to lying during her July 22nd interview and said she was trying to protect Andrew. On August 28th, she confessed the truth. She testified, I never had planned on admitting my involvement. And it just came out. I was ready for it to be over. And I think that's a really interesting statement. You know, people go into this. These are not master criminals, right? This is somebody who decides that they're going to do something illegal, maybe, you know, even take someone's life. But they haven't been doing it for 20 years. No. And so, you know, you make a plan. You go into it.

you don't plan on outing yourself telling the police that you were involved, but then you get into the, you know, the machinery of the justice system and the interviews and all of that. And sometimes it comes out. It says the makings for a TV show. Yeah. Or a movie. I could also see it being somewhat of a comedy besides the fact that somebody died. Yeah.

Unfortunately, yeah. Because it's almost like a comedy of errors. Absolutely. That led up to, you know, all of these people getting caught. Defense witness Katrina Skanga testified she was having an affair with Brian Folsom at the time of the murder. Brian admitted his involvement to her. She didn't believe him at first. When Jim's body was found, he became emotional and told her what happened.

He said he knew Andrew was the one who shot Jim because he was there. So again, she's testifying and has said so a number of times that Jim told her he was there, that Brian told her that he was there when Andrew shot Jim. But to everyone else, he has said, and even on the stand, he said he wasn't there. But she is also saying that it was Andrew that pulled the trigger. Yes, according to Brian. But here again, you were involved in the kidnapping and setting all this side. up and you're going to tell this woman?

Why can't people keep their mouth shut? I mean, it's good that they don't because we get a resolution. They get caught. But I'm just always kind of dumbfounded that these criminals just can't keep their mouth shut. They want to tell all kinds of people. They like to talk. And maybe it's because, like I said, they're not hardened criminals to the point where they're, they've killed a lot of people.

they don't realize what their actions are going to do to them emotionally. Maybe. Maybe that has something to do with it. Closing arguments took place on September 1st. After witness Amber Scott testified for the defense, she said Kristen told her three different stories about what happened to Jim. Public defender Daniel Zettler argued that Kristen and Brian conspired to pin the crime on Andrew Tanner.

He went through all the lines told by Kristen and Brian. D.A. Tom Ladeau attacked the defense theory that Tanner didn't learn about the murder until it was over and said that the fact that the murder weapon was not found was not reasonable doubt. Yeah, I think they have enough here without even having to have the murder weapon. Oh, yeah, I think so too. But you can also see what the defense is trying to do, right? Of course, yeah. These are liars. Kristen, Brian. Here's all the different times they lied. So how can you believe them now when they are saying that Andrew Tanner was the killer? Instead, they're just trying to protect themselves.

Yeah. Put the blame on him. On September 3rd, 2009, Andrew Tanner was convicted of first degree murder after deliberation, first degree felony murder, conspiracy to commit first degree murder, second degree kidnapping, conspiracy to commit second degree kidnapping, and a crime of violence by causing Jim's death. in the course of committing a kidnapping, he was also found guilty of accessory after the fact of first degree murder,

accessory after the fact of felony murder, and accessory after the fact of second degree kidnapping. On October 26th, Andrew was sentenced to life without parole, plus 14 years. He was sentenced to 10 years for kidnapping and four years for accessory. So when you look at the three, right, obviously the people who cut the deals and agreed to testify against Andrew Tanner got a lesser sentence.

Sure. Still lengthy. Pretty darn lengthy. But not life without parole. Now, if it's true that they weren't the ones that pulled the trigger, you could argue that that makes some sense. I still think a lot of people will think, especially on the part of Kristen, that she was just as culpable.

Sure. as Andrew Tanner for probably setting things in motion. But again, how badly did they need their testimony to get the first degree murder charges against Andrew Tanner? Yeah, but I also think pretty darn good outcome to get him on for life. And like you said, they're going to be locked up for a long time. Yeah, 54 years. On April 3, 2014, a judge denied Brian Folsom's motion for post-conviction relief.

because he entered his plea knowingly and voluntarily, a psychologist testified that Folsom had psychiatric problems and was diagnosed with psychopathy, depression, and schizophrenia. He had also attempted to end his life and abused meth. Folsom testified that if he was on medication, at the time he pleaded guilty, he would not have done so. He said he didn't know why he took a plea bargain. Well, I'm guessing that he said some time,

to think about it and doesn't like the fact that he went that route, but I'm assuming he had representation at the time. Yeah, my thought is, though, if he doesn't take the plea bargain, would he ultimately have gotten a more lengthy sense? Potentially. According to the Pueblo chieftain, Kristen Durgan will be 80 years old before she's eligible for parole. Brian Folsom will be in his 60s. So, you know, like I said, they got 54 years. Obviously, Brian, Folsom wasn't six years old when all this happened. So they're going to come up for parole well before the 54 years is up. Right. But there's no guarantee that they're going to get out. I certainly don't think you have to worry about Kristen at 80. Oh, you mean trying to do it again or

hurting somebody else or yeah, I never know. I never know. But if you think about the fact that I don't believe most people get out on their first parole attempt. I don't know the numbers or the percentages. She may never make it out of prison. She's got to make it to 80 first while she's in prison. Absolutely. Kristen and Jim Durgan, they had a lot of problems in their marriage, right? We talked about it. They decided that it would be best if they got a divorce. And by all accounts. It seemed like a pretty amicable, favorable agreement. Kristen was going to keep custody of her kids, house, and receive half of Jim's retirement funds. But it seems as though that wasn't good enough, right? She decided to have her boyfriend killed Jim so that she could keep all his money for herself.

Agreed. The life insurance, everything, before he could change the beneficiary. I think the one thing that really jumps out of you when you look at this case is that none of these three people did a good job of covering their tracks or keeping their mouth shut or keeping their mouth shut you know two of them were said to have confessed very easily which ultimately led to a resolution in the murder of jim durgan and that's what we we want to see where i sure we don't want to murders, but if somebody is killed, you don't want the killer or killers to be so good that they're able to get away with it. Right. These three were never going to get away with it. No. Because of, you know, all the things they did before, during, and after. So now you have these two

kids, their dad's gone, their mom's locked up in prison for basically the rest of her life. You know, what an impact that's going to have on them. Oh, yeah. I didn't. see who they were with or how I don't even know how old they are now but no doubt change their life dramatically have long lasting effects in some of these cases that we do like this they did they just make so little sense you know use the word greed and and there definitely was greed in this case I think on the part of Kristen it seemed to be all greed Brian Folsom you would have to say greed because he did it for the money sure when I look at Andrew Tanner, I think there was a big greed component. I think there was,

uh, you know, almost a love component. He wanted to be with Kristen. I'm sure he wanted some of that money. Absolutely. But I also think there was a jealousy component. We talked about it a little bit. He seemed to get very upset when he found out that she had been with Jim and couldn't handle it. I don't think he could handle that. He wanted her all to himself. And so I think, you know, his reasons for doing what he did, there were probably two or three is what it sounds like to me. But that's it for our episode on Kristen Durgen, the murder of Jim Durgen. We've got some voicemails, though. You want to check those out?

Yes, hear him. Mike, Giddy. What's up? This is Garland from North Carolina. And for about the last eight months, I have been binging your true crime all the time podcast. and I am on Matthew Phelps today, so I should be all caught up today. And I've just got to say, some days, I'm team Givie. Gibby, you're the man.

And some days, I'm team Fergie. Fergie, you're the man. So I do have one question. When are we going to get a Givie-led episode? I think that would be cool. Other than that, keep your own time ticking. Thanks, Garland. You know, him and me got something in Congress.

And both our name starts with a G. Okay. How's that? That's great. That kind of gives you a preview of the Gibby-Land episode right there. So two things. First of all, it's interesting that he said that he would switch back and forth sometimes. Sure.

And most people are either, I'm team Gibby or I'm team Mike or Frody or whatever. I could see if I was on, you know, the side of the audience listening. where I might jump back and forth, depending on who said what or took what stance. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's pretty interesting. I think I'd just be Team Gibby.

I think you would be. Yeah. And then, you know, the other thing is this Gibby-led episode. We've talked about it a lot, especially on Patreon. We talked about doing a Patreon episode where you let,

I think we even did we do one where you did the names of the Patreon. I think we reversed it. Yeah. I think we did do that once. It's a long time, though. And I think that, I think even that was a little rough. Maybe for me, I think you know it playing the gibby role.

Yeah. I know you could do it. I just think the recording time might be in the four, five, six hour range. The editing might take 10 to 15 hours. Be a lot of cut. Cut. But I think people would like it. We just got to figure out.

It would be like back of my movie days, man. It took me forever to get the scene done. And all you said was, Did you call for a plumber? Yeah. That was your one line. I know, but I botched it every time. In the whole, or you said, I'm here to clean the pipes.

I forget you had some different lines in those movies you did back in the day. Hi, guys. This is Vicki from Doylestown, PA, outside of Philadelphia. Just wanted to say, happy birthday to both of you. My birthday also is June 29th, 30, so I think of you every birthday. And I just wanted to say how much. I love, love, love your podcast. It's been my favorite since even before COVID happened, but you got me through a lot of stuff.

So have a great, great day and keep your own time ticking. Love you guys. Well, we definitely love you too. So awesome. We share a birthday. That's very cool. Yeah. I appreciate the birthday wishes.

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I think she met those more for me than you. Okay. Our birthdays are very close together. Doesn't mean anything. all right we had no mailbag so that's it buddy for another episode of true crime all the time so for mike and givey stay safe and keep your own time ticking