True Crime All The Time - Larry and Danny Ranes

Episode Date: March 25, 2024

Larry and Danny Ranes were serial killer brothers who primarily targeted victims near Kalamazoo, Michigan. Larry and Danny were suspected of committing multiple murders. Danny enlisted the help of a teenage accomplice named Brent Koster in some of his crimesJoin Mike and Gibby as they discuss Larry and Danny Raines. What makes the Ranes brothers unique is that they killed victims independently. This is thought to be the only known instance in US history where one family produced two serial killers at separate times in unrelated incidents. You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 376 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson. And with me as always is my partner in True Crime, Mike Gibson. Give me, how are you? Hey, I'm doing good. How about you? I'm doing great. You know, this is one of my favorite times of the year. March Madness is getting ready to start. Yeah. By the time that this episode comes out, I'll know the fate of at least the first couple of games probably of my team. That's true. I have to wait and see how they do. But I just love the event. I love the fact that you have teams that don't get a lot of coverage during the year, playing these big time programs who do,

and they have a chance to knock them off. And a lot of times they do. It's a lot of fun, man. Yeah, and upsets are really the best part, as long as they don't happen to the team that I like. I always just like watching the last one minute of every game. That's where all the excitement's at. what if one of the teams is up by 40?

Well, no, I don't want to watch it. I mean, there's not a lot of excitement in that. Let me clear. I like the last minute of all the games of a close game. I got you.

Of course, that one minute goes on for 20 minutes. It does. It does if it's close and they keep following. Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shoutouts. We had Jordan Simpson jump out to our highest level. Hey, Simpson. Sarah Lindwall.

I appreciate that, Sarah. Peggy Reiner. Well, what's happening, Peggy? Emily Hartley. There's Emily. And Lolly. Well, thank you. Hey, Lolly, Lolly, Lill.

Mark Fredrickson. Uh, Fredericks. In the house. Amanda Nobles. Oh, thank you, Amanda. Gabrielle St. Orange. I like that, St.

Orange. That's what I'm going with. I want a saint in front of my name sometime. That is never going to happen. No. Beth Altman jumped out to our highest level. Hey, Beth. Thank you so much.

Christina Gerasimchuk. Got a salmon chulk I like that Yeah And last but not least Casey Hostert Hey Casey

Thank you And then if we go back Into the vault This week We selected Jennifer Annas Well thanks Jennifer And I remember

When Jennifer Signed up Because we were talking about Well you know That must be Jennifer Aniston She just wanted to Remain a little incognito

Didn't put the TON On the end of it We were making jokes like that But that was like probably four years ago. Tells you how long she's been. I know. It's so awesome.

Love it. So Gibbs, Morph and I are taking on a big case on criminology. Yeah, you are. John Bonae Ramsey, which I've always worried about doing. Yeah.

Because number one, it's such a big case and number two, people know a lot of the details, but it's going to be like a three-parter. And so, you know, I'll give it a little plug. Sure.

Listen. You guys do a good job. Yeah, I think it'll, it'll be a good one. you and I also have a new episode out on T-Cat Unsolved where we're talking about Christine Cole and Christine left home to go to the store on January 6th, 1988, and never returned. Her body was later found on the beach and Warwick Rhode Island.

Yeah, this one kind of tears me up because, you know, we're talking about a 10-year-old. Yes. We're talking about some troubles at home, talking about some strange events happening when she's not at home, you know, out on the streets. And then, of course, we're going to dive into some things that happened many, many years later. Some twists and turns. But they, they come way down the road. Exactly.

All right, buddy. Are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time? I am ready. We're talking about Larry and Danny Rains. And, you know, these two guys were brothers. They were also serial killers who primarily targeted victims near Cal Malamazoo, Michigan. But what makes these brothers unique as serial killers is that they targeted their victims

independently. It's really strange, man. Two guys from the same family. Yeah. Became serial killers independent of one another. And as far as I know, it's the only known instance in U.S. history where one family produced two different serial killers who killed it separate. times and unrelated incidents. You got to kind of wonder what was going on in that family.

Well, we're going to talk about it. But you and I have often talked about, and I know I've brought up your brothers in doing so, you know, how do you have that conversation with your brother that you want to kill someone and you want to do it together? Now, here's a situation where, you know, two brothers, not that far apart in age, are out doing essentially the same thing, not coordinating with each other. I'm leaning towards that being even stranger. I definitely think it's strange. I mean, it's one thing to be like, hey, bro, you want to go in on this old car and just work on it together and get it up and running. That's what brothers should do. Yeah. You know, it's not like, hey, bro, you want to go slash some people this weekend?

Well, and you're certainly not, I mean, imagine like, hey, I'm thinking about murdering somebody. What do you think the best way to dispose of the body would be? And can you help me? Yeah. So in part one, we'll cover the killer's early lives and their crimes leading up to the arrest of Danny Raines in 1972. Danny Arthur Raines was born on October 20th, 1943. Larry Lee Raines was born on March 20. 22nd, 1945. So about a year and a half apart, the brothers grew up in Woodward, Michigan,

in an abusive household. Danny and Larry were the middle of four children. They had two sisters. And this is somewhat of a strange case in that there's not a lot of reporting. And the sources that we did find and used for this episode did name their parents, or sibling. And I think some of that is because it's not all that widely known. In 1987, Conrad Hilberry published Luke Karamazzo, which is the only dedicated book about the case. And Hilberry used fake names to protect identities. And I found that to be very strange, you know, with the explosion in popularity of true crime. I mean, how many movies have there been on Netflix or, you know, whatever.

This is a fascinating story, but nobody's picked it up. There weren't that many newspaper articles. Like I said, this is one book written about it. No movies. No movies yet. Yet. Sources reported that Danny and Larry loved and hated each other and were often pitted against each other as children.

This sense of competition affected their relationship. Now, the first part, I don't know is that unusual? I mean, you let me know you have two brothers. I'm sure at times, especially when you were young, you both loved and hated them. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, you have those rivals, you know, with your brothers, your siblings, and you're going to have moments of likes and dislikes. Yeah, like a love, hate relationship in certain... instances. I think normally it transforms over time as people get older into more of a loving

type of relationship, a little less hate. Maybe not for everyone. But you know, when your brother's beating the crap out of you. Yeah. That's the time that you do not like him. You know, when he comes to your defense, then you're like, I love you. That's my bro. That's right. But then you also have this theme of competition, pitting one child. against the other. And I don't know how uncommon that is either because I think in some households, there's competition for affection, sure, maybe knowingly or unknowingly from one or more of the parents. But then I think there's competition that's just kind of built in with siblings, right? You want to be a better baseball player than your brother. You want to be smarter than your brother. You want to be smarter than

your sister. You want to get better grades. And I grew up with some friends that were super competitive because of the way their household was. I mean, I think me and my brothers were somewhat competitive, but not on the level of, you know, these other families were, I mean, I think it was, they were raised that way to be that competitive. Like, whoever goes out and picks up the most rocks out in the field, you know, you're going to get the extra hamburger tonight. why were they outside picking up rocks? Because they had a farm, you know,

and when you plow the farm, you know, get it ready to you can't have rocks, you know. So there was a competition about who could pick up the most rocks. Yeah. Of course, you can imagine these guys were pretty big later in life, you know, from all that rock pick up. From all that rock picking. You're really painting a picture of the town you grew up in. You realize that, right?

Larry said in an interview with author Conrad, Rad Hilberry. I used to hit Danny with boards, throw knives at him, shoot him with bows and arrows and shit like that. Well, my brother used to shoot my younger brother used to shoot me with a BB gun. Yep. Yeah, I had a step brother who used to shoot me with a BB gun. He was three or four years older than me. Now, I'm not sure why you're letting your younger brother shoot a BB gun at you, but. That's because I was chasing him. So you were probably instigating something. He was defending himself with a BB gun. It's the same brother that jabbed a marshmallow or scorer into me.

Did you just say scur? Squir. Scur. Scure. Skewer. Yeah. Okay. I think you were.

One of those metal sharp things. I knew, yeah. I knew he was a time. A former classmate of Larry's told the Chicago Sun Times that Larry was a bully in high school. He claimed Larry once came at him with a chisel and he didn't know whether he was being serious or not. Well, I can tell you right now, if you're coming at me with any type of object that can be perceived as a weapon, I'm just going to go ahead and air on the side of seriousness. I think that's probably best. Yeah.

I did have a girl in high school stabbed me with an exacto knife one time. It was accidental. I did not see it coming. According to her. Yeah, according to her, it was an air quote accident. Mm-hmm. She knows who she is. Larry and Danny's father was physically abusive and basically just hit whoever was closest to him when he drank.

He was easily angered when the kids didn't obey him quickly. He beat their mother, destroyed furniture, and picked fights with others. He liked to scare and humiliate his sons and he even forced them to drink alcohol. So a real winner. Yeah. So this guy's a real winner. and, you know, it's painting this picture of what could not have been a very good childhood. Definitely, uh, helped mold the boys to where they're headed.

Yeah. I mean, it probably did. I think it's, it's hard not to say that, that some of that stuff would not have had an effect on them. Now, is it absolutely going to make them a killer? No, because I'm sure many. people listening went through something similar. Maybe it wasn't to the same degree, but, and they didn't come out to be serial killers, but can it help you? And I would say probably not.

Larry said that his father had shown them no legitimate way in which to earn approval or self-esteem. And I talked about that, right? By and large, I think children want to make their parents proud. You know, they want to earn approval, which then in turn affects their self-esteem. And if that is unobtainable, what does that do for your self-esteem? Do you have none? Exactly. Larry told author Conrad Hilberry that his dad once ran over the family dog with his truck. Larry recalled, I looked at the other kids and I thought, how could they be so attached to a dog to cry?

or have a tantrum. And so I think that is giving you a lot of insight into Larry and his lack of emotions or his ability to feel slash show emotions. Well, I think his dad beat it, scared it, many things out of him, right? It could be. It could be. Hillberry described Larry as a loner who felt little emotion. The kids rarely saw their moments.

mother because she worked evening shifts in a paper factory, Larry felt that she was disorganized and couldn't handle a family or her husband's struggles with alcoholism. I think that's kind of rough of Larry to put that on his mother. Yeah, she's working away to make sure they have things they need to have, the staples. And to say she couldn't handle this guy who was struggling with alcohol and physically abusing her. Yeah, well, to try to handle somebody physically abusing her, more than anybody should ever have to deal with. But then to also try to deal with somebody that has a problem with alcohol, it's tough.

Well, and I'm sure the two went hand in hand, right? The alcohol abuse, the physical abuse. But here again, no emotion. He's not cutting his mom any slack. If you can't have some understanding for your mom or feel, emotions for your mom, you're probably not going to feel them for anyone. I don't think you're right. In 1954, their father abandoned the family and moved to Florida where he got a job as a gas station attendant. In 1958, 13-year-old Larry met his neighbor Sue, who was a 23-year-old mother of three.

Over the next few years, he started spending more and more time with Sue and helped her raise her children, they eventually developed an intimate relationship. I don't even know what to say. She's 23. He's 13. I mean, it's so many things wrong about this. Now, I don't know how many years into this. They started the intimate relationship. You know, was he still a minor? I'm assuming he was. But at 13 years old, you know, how many kids are looking to help raise three young ones? Not many. No. Hell, they're probably closer to his age than hers.

Yeah. Yeah, they probably were. The brothers had complicated relationships. They reflected the competitions of their childhood in the early 1960s. Both Danny and Larry started dating a girl named Kathy. whom they knew from high school, Larry's grade suffered because he spent all his time with his two girlfriends. So he's dating this girl named Kathy. He's also dating this 27-year-old who has three children. He dropped out of school in the 10th grade and began a life of crime. In 1962, 17-year-old Larry

and a friend stole a car. They were both arrested, but Larry was offered a deal. His sentence would be nullified if he joined the army. And we've heard this before. Oh yeah, they used to do that. This was a deal that was made to people back in the day. We won't put you in jail. We won't put you in prison if you join the army. And I think as a 17 year old, that might be a pretty easy decision to make. I mean, first of all, who wants to go to prison? But do you really want to go to prison as a 17 year old? Yeah, I would say no. Now, he might not have wanted to go to the army either. Larry agreed to enlist in the army, but his military career didn't last long.

He spent most of it in the military stockade. He was repeatedly disciplined for misconduct and alcoholism. And in 1963, he brandished butcher knives while chasing two fellow soldiers. Well, that will get you in the stockade. Yeah. But here again, this is like a constant refrain. Right? With some of these killers who join the armed forces, they can't hack it. And we do hear a lot of alcoholism, getting in trouble. And why is that? Is it because they're not good at following rules? I would say

probably yes. I mean, it's kind of a big thing, right? Being in the army or the Navy or whatever, a Marine, you have to follow a very strict set of rules. Yeah, that's very disciplined. Very disciplined. And I don't think a lot of these people have that type of discipline to make it. Larry was dismissed from the Army and returned to Kalamazoo, Michigan. While he was in the Army, Danny married Kathy and they had two children together. Which was strange anyway, right?

Because Kathy was dating both the boys. brothers at one point. Which I did think was straight. Now, I've heard of, let's say, maybe a brother going out with someone after a relationship has broken up. I don't think that's a great idea either. Usually doesn't lead to good feelings on the part of the siblings, but for them both to be dating her at the same time, that seemed very odd to me. Yeah. And dating didn't miss around for them have two kids. So either they had twins or they had some back-to-back pregnancies. When Larry came back from the army, he begged his former girlfriend Sue to marry him, but she refused. He was devastated and attempted to end his life on December 23rd, 1963. He was saved

by a police officer and was taken to the Kalamazoo Regional Psychiatric Hospital, where he was admitted for 10 days. And then Larry began his killing spree just a few months later. So being in that hospital didn't sound like it really helped him. Or they did not uncover some issues that he had. Yeah, I think you're on the right track because later Larry would say that if someone had noticed why he attempted suicide, he might have received treatment and not committed the murders.

Now, he could be telling the truth. He could be lying. we don't know. But if you take him at his word, he's saying that if they could have gotten to the bottom of what, you know, he was struggling with and helped him with it, maybe he wouldn't have gone on to kill. After he was released from the hospital, he spent three months hitchhiking across the country. Larry was still only 19 years old at this point, but he felt that he would not live a long life. So he wanted to travel before he died. He traveled through Ohio, Kentucky, and made it all the way to Nevada. On May 29, 1964, Larry was hitchhiking in Kalamazoo, Michigan, and was picked up by

30-year-old Gary Albert Smock, a schoolteacher. Larry pulled out a weapon and forced Gary into the trunk of his car, then locked him in and continued driving. Gary started making thumping. noises. So Larry stopped on a little used road outside Kalamazoo. Larry tied Gary up and shot him twice in the back of the head with a 22 caliber gun. He robbed Gary of $3.00. His shoes and his watch and then abandoned the car on the side of the road between 8 and 9 p.m. $3. A pair of shoes and a watch. Not much is it? And a pair of worn shoes. And you know what really struck me was that, this Gary smart guy, school teacher, you know, probably thought he was doing something nice. Sure he did.

Picking someone up who needed a ride was going to give him a ride. And that wasn't uncommon in the 60s. We talked about it. A lot of people hitchhiked. A lot of people picked up hitchhiker. I talked about that movie, what's called? Once Upon a Crime. Oh, yeah, yeah.

The Tarantino movie with Brad Pitt and, uh, Leonardo on our Patreon this week. And there's a scene in there where Margo Robbie is kind of driving along in her little Porsche and she picks someone up because they need a ride. They have this great conversation. And at the end of it, you know, she lets this woman out of the car. She gets out of the car. And then they hug. And she's like, hey, I hope everything works out for you. And I'm sure there was a lot of that. Unfortunately, as we know, there was a lot that went very, very wrong. Very wrong. We did so many cases about hitchhiking gone bad, but I'd give it a try. You would or you do? I would. Why would you need to hitchhike? You have a nice vehicle. I've seen it. I would just do it for fun, just to

see how it goes. Okay. I'll have my K-bar. I'll start watching the news then. Around 5 p.m. on May 30th, a patrol officer was doing an inspection of what looked like an abandoned vehicle. He saw bloodstains on the bumper and personal papers in the front seat. He had the car towed to the police station. Gary Smock's wife, Thelma, was at the station, reporting her husband missing when the officer called in the discovery. She said that the description matched her husband's car. Gary's body was found in the trunk. He was lying face down in a pool of blood.

As we talked about, Gary was shot with a 22 caliber weapon. A cord was wrapped around his wrist and his shoes and watch were missing. And I still can't get over that. Being murdered for $3, a worn pair of shoes, a used pair of shoes and a watch. And it probably wasn't a very expensive one.

I'm sure it wasn't. This guy was a school teacher. He wasn't Bill Gates. he wasn't wearing, I'm sure, uh, Rolex or, you know, something like that. Not that that would make it okay, but no, no, I'm just, you know, it's like you, you kill somebody over. Over that? The police lifted a palm print and fingerprint from the car and determined it belonged to someone other than Gary or his family. A bullet was found on the floor of the trunk. The police also saw that Gary had written an $11 check on the evening.

of the 29th to cash. And I don't know how many people listening are familiar with that. First of all, I don't know how many people write that many checks anymore. Not too many, I don't think. But back in the day, I guess you can still do it today, but it was kind of common. You'd write a check out to cash, give it to someone, and they would go. Cash it. We should try that out.

Can you write me a check for cash? No, absolutely not. It's bad enough that I bought you dinner tonight. I keep waiting for you to say, hey, it's my turn. But since you never bring your wallet with you, it never materializes. I'll try harder. The police focused on reconstructing Gary's last day. They learned that on May 29, he was traveling to his in-laws home in Allegan.

Earlier that day, he had an appointment in Battle Creek with the Chamber of Commerce. He was looking for accommodation. for a Church of God youth convention. At the meeting, he mentioned that he had to go to a family dinner. So he's in Battle Creek. That's where they make all the cereal, right? And that where Kellogg is? Yeah.

So, and then you find out that he's going to this Church of God youth convention. Thelmaa heard from Gary around 6 p.m. that evening. He told her he wouldn't be there for dinner, but would be there soon. Around 11 p.m., Gary's car was seen at a service station in Kalamazoo. The attendant saw two people in the car. However, this report was later found to be an error. On June 4, 1964, Larry visited the home of his acquaintance, Arthur Booth. He confessed to multiple murders, then told Booth he was going to see a priest before he

ended his life. Now, one thing that you and I have talked about a lot is if you were a lone, killer. Why in the world would you confide what you had done to anyone? Maybe you just want to get it off your chest. Maybe the guilt of what you've done, even though you had for whatever reason you had to do it. And I think that's what it sounds like here. Yeah. Right. I think normally you wouldn't expect people to do that. But if Larry was really feeling some guilt and he was planning to end his life, you could see where maybe he would want to tell someone what he had done.

But how would you feel about this guy telling you all this way sitting inside your house? I think you'd be hoping that he would leave pretty quickly. Yeah. Booth called the police around midnight. Larry was arrested at his home. He was wearing Gary Smock's missing watch and shoes. Larry admitted to killing Gary Smock and surrendered a 22 caliber handgun. He also admitted to the.

murder of 33-year-old Charles Snyder, then said he killed an Air Force serviceman in Michigan, a man in Vegas, and a fifth victim in Kentucky. And this is why I always think if you're a killer that you don't want to be running around talking about it. Because what would you do, Gibbs, if I confided in you that I had killed five people, you would wait for me to leave, and then you'd probably call the police. and record a podcast and get it out there to everybody like, hey, first-hand account. That's right.

Of what this man told me. Yeah, you wouldn't want that person not to be accountable for what they did. Well, so if you're the person told you want to live with the knowledge, that you knew about it, but did nothing. And I would say for most people, no. No. And you probably don't want it on your conscience that this guy could go out and do it again. On the way to the police station, Larry confessed that after he killed Gary, he bought a burger and drove about 60 miles to Indiana. In the early morning hours of May 30th, he killed Charles Schneider, who was working at a gas station in Elkhart, Indiana.

He robbed Snyder and returned to Kalamazoo. Snyder was shot twice in the head with a 22 caliber. He was found by a group of fishermen who stopped for gas. The police set up roadblocks. Larry claimed that he was waved through a roadblock with a body in his trunk. He returned to the place where he met Gary and abandoned the car and then hitchhiked back to Kalamazoo. He knew he left blood on the bumper, but said that he didn't care about cleaning it up. Just thought he wouldn't be caught.

Or didn't care. I don't know which one. Besides Gary Smock, Snyder was the only other victim, Larry identified. by name. And I'm assuming that he probably didn't know the other people's names. Yeah, I'm guessing not either. Before Larry was arrested, law enforcement from Michigan and Indiana coordinated to determine if the same gun killed both men. Larry further confessed that a man picked him up near Death Valley. On May 23rd, he repeatedly mentioned the fact that he had no money. So Larry shot him. Hey, I got no money.

I mean, I'm really, I don't have no money. Seems like a strange reason. And I always wonder, you know, as people are giving their statement, what's the level of truthfulness? Is that the reason he shot him or did he just shoot him because he wanted to? And then they have to kind of, I don't know, make something up. I think he would have shot the guy either way. I don't think the fact that he had no money was the deciding fact.

Yeah, I agree with you. That just didn't seem to make a lot of sense. The fifth victim was a gas station attendant in Kentucky. Larry said he committed the murders during robberies. He also said he intended to end his life, but he never did. There again, if he's killing people during robberies and he killed a man who specifically said he had no money, okay, maybe he took other stuff, maybe he took his car or whatever it was. that one just seems off for some reason.

This is really dangerous working at gas stations back in the day. Still is. It is. I mean, I've told you stories of me working at gas stations in the 90s. Now, it was in Detroit and it was dangerous. I remember a guy trying to rob me with a screwdriver.

The problem is there was bulletproof glass and the whole thing was enclosed. So I didn't really feel all that threatened. And you said, you're not going to screw me over. No, I locked the door and called the police and they came and got him. So he's admitted to five murders. Another victim was believed to be 20-year-old Vernon Labin, an Air Force serviceman who was working at a service station near Battle Creek, Michigan,

on the I-94 interchange, close to where Gary Smock was driving. He was shot with a 22-caliber weapon on April 6th the day before his wedding. tragic by itself. But the impacts that it had on everybody else's life after the fact, too. Well, and the what would have been, right? The two never even got to get married. Larry told the police he didn't want a lawyer, so they scheduled a psychiatric exam.

He later changed his mind and was appointed a public defender. So he came to his senses a little bit on that one. A psychiatric evaluation found Larry insane. the doctors reported that the psychological trauma perpetrated by Larry's abusive father caused him to develop a hatred towards gas stations and gas station workers because they reminded him of his father. This right here kind of reminds me of the movie The Jerk. Oh, where he gets upset and, but he's at the gas station. He's working at the gas station and some guys shooting at him. But he keeps it in the cans.

He said they're shooting the oil cans or something. They really hate these oil cans. But, I mean, in all seriousness, I mean, how tragic is that that he hates gas stations and people that work there because of how terrible his dad was to him. It's not an excuse, but it's just what it is. Or is it? It's what a psychiatrist determined it to be. It could be true.

It could not be true. It could just be what Larry told him. Now, he did have a very messed up childhood. His father was extremely abusive and he was a gas station attendant. So it could all be true. Larry went to trial on September 29th, 1964. But he was only charged with the murder of Gary Smock. The other charges were reserved pending the results of the trial.

And we do see this from time to time. And it makes sense that he would be charged with Gary's murder. he was wearing the guy's shoes and his watch. So, I mean, the evidence was probably the strongest in that case. Yeah, that one was more of a slam dunk than the other. The others were all just, you know, his admission. The main issue at trial was Larry's sanity. Larry pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity.

Several psychologists testified that he committed the murder during a period of temporary insanity that occurred due to a. his rage against his father. They pointed out that Larry's father once worked at a gas station and that the victims happened to look like his father. According to the Anderson Daily bulletin, a psychiatrist testified that Larry took pleasure in bringing big men to their knees to beg for their life. Now, if that is true, why would Larry take pleasure in that? And my thought is is that he felt he had no control when his father was doing to him what he did back when he was a kid. So he was going to find these guys that worked at gas stations that looked like his father.

And he was going to take back control. Yeah, he was going to show them. It was also noted that Larry seemed interested in how far the blood traveled when he shot victims and he showed no remorse. Larry later told author Conrad Hilberry there was never a plan it was a natural thing it always seemed to me like I was an actor in a play so a couple of interesting things there the actor in the play thing it almost makes me think of like an out-of-body experience like somebody is watching themselves do something yeah but they don't feel as though they're the ones who are actually doing it they're just watching it.

And it's not really real. But then there's also there never was a plan. So what does that mean? He's just going to gas stations to get gas and happens to see that the attendant looks something like his father and that causes him to, you know, spring into action. Maybe. Maybe it flips some type of internal switch. But what's with the being interested in how far the blood traveled?

when he shot his victims. I don't know if I've ever heard of that. No. Maybe it's just some strange, obviously some strange fascination he had. If I shoot somebody like this, this close, how far would the blood go?

Where does it end up? Yeah. The trial was short. And on October 9th, Larry Raines was found guilty of first degree murder. He was sentenced to life in prison with hard labor on October 23rd,

1964. And the good old days when you got hard labor. as opposed to a color TV and your cell. Exactly. Back in the days where they just made you break rocks for no reason. Hey, pile these rocks over here. Then when you're done, take them back and pile them back in the original spot. What for?

No reason. Just because. Just because we want you to be doing something. So Larry Raines killed what seemed to be at least five people, right? He was convicted of killing one person. was sent to life in prison. Four years later, Danny Raines attempted to abduct a young girl

in Battle Creek, Michigan. On November 26, 1968, Danny attempted to abduct 17-year-old Dorothy King. Dorothy was leaving the drugstore where she worked around 7 p.m. She was preparing to drive home when a man who had driven into the parking lot

tapped on her window. She lowered the window and he asked her where the room. rear entrance to the drugstore was. She pointed to the door and raised her window, but the man tapped on the window again. Dorothy lorded about six inches. The man pointed a handgun at her through the opening and told her to move over. He got into the car and drove off. He ordered her to lie down on the floor, but Dorothy complained. It was hard for her to lie down because of a leg operation, so he allowed her to sit in the front seat. So here again,

is somebody who is seemingly trying to do something nice, much like Gary, right, giving Larry a ride while he was hitchhiking. This woman, Dorothy, is trying to help someone, you know, get to where they're trying to go. And I know I've said it before. There's this fine line between wanting to be helpful, help others out, but while doing so, putting yourself in kind of a compromising position. See, this is where we're at today. Less people help others because there's danger involved. Yeah. You know, how many times we talk about, you know, pulling over onto the side of the road to help someone.

You want to do that. It's in your nature to do that. You want to be helpful. But is there a thought in your mind that I don't know who this person is? I don't know what their intentions are. This whole thing could be a trap just to get someone to pull over. And I hate that I'm so cynical about it, but I can't help but think of things in those terms because, you know, there's safety involved.

There is. I wouldn't want my daughters. I wouldn't want my wife to be doing that. But I also don't want to be thought of as a bad guy and a person who doesn't want to help bothers. And it's such a strange thing. It's like a double-edged sword. Yeah. It kind of is. But Dorothy escaped when Larry drove to a service lot on the campus of Kellogg Community College. He said he made a wrong turn and began turning the car around. Dorothy jumped out of the car and screamed as loudly as she could. Danny threw out his gun and fled on foot. And we tell so many

different types of stories. Some of them end very tragically. Unfortunately, these types of stories are always amazing to me. You know, it takes a lot of guts to make the decision that you know you're in a bad situation and you're going to jump out of a moving car. But you've come to the realization that if you don't, there's a really good chance. Things are going to end very badly for you. you. Maybe she didn't have a leg entry. Maybe she was smart enough to say, I had that so she could have a better position in the car. That's a great point. I had not thought of that. But either way, she was amazing, right? Jumps out, starts screaming, and you would have to think. It most likely saved her life. The Battle Creek police found Danny and arrested him as he was walking back to his car

at the rear of the drugstore where Dorothy worked. On February 4th, 1969, Danny was found guilty of felonious assault. On April 15th, he was sentenced to three to four years in prison. Makes you wonder if this was his first time doing something like this, or it's his first time that it went wrong? Yeah, I didn't see a ton of background on his criminal history, but we have also learned that criminal history

didn't seem to play as big a part back in the 50s and 60s as it does now. You know, what you had done before didn't always lead to bigger and bigger sentences. Danny's wife, Kathy, divorced him while he was in prison. Meanwhile, Larry appealed his conviction on the grounds that he underwent a psychiatric examination before he had representatives. In September 1968, the Michigan Court of Appeals ruled two to one to uphold the conviction. Larry appealed to the state Supreme Court. On July 8, 1971, the Michigan Supreme Court reversed the Court of appeals decision and ordered a new trial for Larry.

The court reversed the conviction on the grounds that Larry was refused an attorney before undergoing a psychiatric examination. On February 17, 1972, Danny Raines was granted parole and returned to Kalamazoo. He got a job at a gas station. Just like his dad. In June 172, Danny met 15-year-old Brent Eugene Koster, who came from a troubled family. His mother was diagnosed with schizophrenia, and his father struggled with alcoholism. Brent was living with a friend whose mother, who's mother, dated Danny Rang. He befriended the older man and moved in with Danny when he started dating another woman. Danny helped him get a job.

Brent looked up to Danny and thought of him as a role model, which allowed Danny to turn him into an accomplice. Well, I think they had some things in common. They did. Obviously, they both had abusive fathers who were alcoholics. They had troubled childhoods. You know, was. this guy, Brent, someone who was looking for, I don't know if you want to call it a father figure,

but a mentor or role model. And maybe he won't. Brent would later say that Danny gave a detailed confession of a murder he committed in March, just one month after he was released from prison. And he even showed him where it occurred. So we talk about, you know, killers telling other people what they've done, you know, was this a way to kind of draw Brent in, to confide in him, this terrible secret, while at the same time kind of leading him into what Danny was all about. I mean, it's a good way to test the waters with him, right? Right. To see if maybe he would be open to doing some of the same stuff. That's kind of the since I got. Years later, Brent said that Danny explained that he went to prison for rape because he

let the woman go. He told Brent, that will never happen again. And we have heard criminals say that so many times. You know, they got caught for something early on. And it was because someone was able to ID them, tell the police about them. So after getting out of prison, It's not like they change their ways. They're going to keep doing the bad things. Right. But now they've made the decision, I don't ever want to go back to prison. So I'm never leaving anyone alive to be able to do that to me again.

Well, I can still keep doing what I want to do without getting caught. Yeah, absolutely. On March 19th, 1972, 29-year-old Patricia Halk left home to go shopping with her 17-month-old son. Danny saw Patricia go into a department store and parked his van next to her car. She came out an hour later and put her son in the passenger seat. He pulled a knife on her. When she walked over to the driver's side, Patricia panicked and fell into the car. Danny pulled her out and forced her into his van.

He bound and raped her, then forced her into the front. He tried to strangle her. Patricia fought back and scratched his face. The fight was so intense. They fell out of the van to the ground. Danny stabbed Patricia in the back and twisted the knife, which killed her. Patricia's son got out of the car and was crying near the van. Danny said, he didn't kill the boy because he thought he wouldn't remember anything. Danny then left Patricia's body behind a storage elevator. Her son wandered alone until an elderly woman found him the next day and called the police.

He had blood on him but was unharmed. Man, poor kid. Just an absolutely tragic situation. When you think about what Patricia went through, she fought like hell. Oh, say she gave it all, man, you can tell. You know, she wanted to survive. She wanted to get back to her son, I'm sure.

And she did everything she could. unfortunately she ended up being killed and then for this kid to to walk around to just wonder around until the next day patricia's husband had already reported her missing the police pretty quickly found her body her wallet was missing so the police suspected robbery was the motive according to brent coster danny bragged about how the murder was successful and suggested they do the something similar together. So they plan to kidnap a girl, rape her, steal from her, and kill her. And this goes back to the question I always have.

How do you start this conversation with another human being? This is what I want to do. This is what I think we should do. Kidnap, rape, torture, murder, steal. I guess somehow you have to find a way to influence them, you know, make them think that it's something cool, something, uh, they're going to want to do this. You're going to want to do this. Well, and it does sound like this is a little bit different because, you know, Danny had kind of been, it sounds to me, like almost prepping this kid for what was going to be his ultimate request.

And this kid looks up to Danny. We know that, right? He doesn't want to disappoint him. He sees him as a role mob. and so is he more impressionable and is he more willing to go along with it because of all those factors? Yeah, Danny does it so I should be able to do it. Because he's cool. Yeah. And he wouldn't have me do something if I shouldn't be doing it. He and Danny prepared a kit with knives, trash bags and ropes and went out looking for a girl to kill. Brent said they once parked in front of a movie theater and stayed for hours. And they often went out looking for female hitchhikers. And there's a lot of stuff that scares me, you know, as we go through these episodes. And this is one of them. A predator who is just sitting, let's say, in their car. Yeah. Watching for the right victim in their mind.

That scares the bejibis out of me. And I think there's a lot of us that have seen. somebody just sitting in a car, maybe at a movie theater, maybe at a grocery store. At a mall. Yeah, you don't know what they're doing. When you went in or still there, and this is what it makes you think. Like, are they just waiting for the opportune time to do something? Or are they waiting for their wife to come out of the department store? Yeah, you don't know.

No, but your mind races. After a few months, they murdered two young women who were traveling late at night. On July 6th, 1972, Danny Raines and Brent Costa raped and murdered 19-year-old Linda Clark and Claudia Bidstrip at a gas station on Sprinkle Road near I-95 where Danny was working. Linda and Claudia were both from Chicago, but they were driving to Ann Arbor to visit one of the girls' brothers. They stopped at the gas station where Danny was working. Brent Costa was with him, as he often was.

was during Danny's shifts, the girls pulled in around 1 a.m. On July 6th, Brent filled their tank and Danny popped the hood of the car. Danny checked the oil and pulled the spark plug wire. So it would seem as though they were having car trouble. He directed the girls into a service bed. Danny and Brent pulled a knife on the girls. Danny told them not to scream and they wouldn't be hurt. He ordered them to get into the back seat and drove the car. And drove the car. to the back of the station where the lights were off. Danny forced Claudia and Linda to get into a Corvair van. The girls were tied up.

Brent or Danny watched them while the other dealt with customer. Danny raped both girls and Brent raped Linda. Danny told Brent to kill Claudia because it was time for him to quote, taste the medicine. Taste the medicine. He attempted to strangle her with a rope. but she fought back. Danny helped him kill her. And then Brent strangled Linda by himself. Here, let me show you how we do this son. And then he had him do it by himself. Yeah, almost like a father showing a son how to or a daughter how to cast a fishing pole. Here,

let me show you how to do it. And then now here you go. Try it for yourself. But we're talking about strangling someone. And how strange is it that they're choosing victims who are driving into the place where Danny works? Pretty convenient for him. It's convenient, but it also seems dangerous. Now, this is before video cameras and stuff like that. So the danger level is not as high, but there's still some there. They put the girls into the backseat of their car, covered them with a blanket. and Brent drove the car to a wooded area.

He poured gas on the car and lit a cigarette, but left before he knew if it ignited the car. He then hitched hiked back. Isn't that kind of like how to dispose of a body 101, like make sure the car ignites? Actually catches on fire. Danny showed him the money, jewelry, and photos he stole from the girls. On July 17th, motorcyclists in the woods near Galesburg,

Michigan, found an abandoned vehicle with the bodies of two young women in the back seat. The registration was traced to a Chicago man who reported his daughter missing. Linda and Claudia were identified by their fingerprint and going back to the car catching on fire. Some of this stuff would have been a little tougher. Had the car caught on fire, you know, we don't know how much the bodies would have burned up. what would have been left for identification. I'm assuming eventually they would have figured out who the car belonged to and who these girls were, but it would have taken a little longer.

Yeah, but luckily, the car didn't catch on fire. Because Brent didn't do what he was supposed to do. The police considered whether the murderers were related to the Patricia Halk case. an autopsy could not determine the cause of death, but the girls were found with ropes around their necks, which indicated strangulation. They had been killed over a week before they were found. Their gas tank was full, so investigators believed they encountered the killer near the crime scene. That's pretty good detective work right there.

Well, it's an interesting piece of the puzzle. You have a full gas tank, which means you had to have filled. up within a certain radius. Not good when you're the perpetrator and you happen to work at a gas station not that far away. But again, that would never have been known, right, had the car caught on fire. On August 5th, 1972, Danny and Brent were driving near Western Michigan University. When they picked up 18-year-old Pamela Fearnow, who was out hitchhiking, Brent would later say he didn't want to kill again, but he was afraid of Danny. So if you believe Brent,

he had killed, kind of at Danny's insistence, request, whatever you want to call it, but he didn't want to do it again. After that, he said, oh, I don't like this.

So the taste of medicine that Danny referred to, Brent didn't like it. Didn't go down well? It didn't go down well. He didn't like it the way that Danny liked it, but

he was afraid of the consequences if he didn't go along. This is what he's saying. They drove Pamela at knife point to a wooded area. Brent tied her up, covered her with the sleeping bag, and lay next to her while Danny drove. They both raped her over a period of six hours. They tied Pamela again and drove her to the woods at Morrow Lake near Comstock Township. Brent Cleft. Brent Cleft. that they all drank and Pamela finished a bottle of wine. She screamed and struggled when they moved her a third time. Danny punched her in the stomach, but this failed to subdue her. So Brent put a plastic bag over her head and suffocated her. Danny left the van. Brent followed him when Pamela became quiet. Danny looked inside the van and saw that she was dead. They put her body on the

ground. At that point, Danny said he saw a police car. So Brent ran away. The police stopped to check Danny's ID and let him go. He reportedly encountered the same patrol officer four times before he returned to the trailer where he and Brent lit. Four times. That seems like a lot. Yeah, I think so. Each time the guy just said, oh, it's you again. Well, I guess once you check the person's ID the first time and you let him go. If you saw him again, you probably wouldn't think much of it. Yeah. But Brent has killed again. Now, if you believe him, he didn't want to. He had to. He had to because of his fear of Danny. But that's if you believe what he has said. Danny and Brent returned to the crime scene the next day to move Pamela's body to a more secluded area.

Brent said he found two ropes around her neck. He only remembered putting one on her neck and believed Danny added the second rope. Brent and Danny's friendship broke off because Danny wanted Brent to steal a car and go to Florida. Brent started to fear that Danny was going to kill him. And I think that's a pretty valid fear to have. Yeah, I think so. You're dealing with a man who you know has killed a number of women who basically got you into killing. Now you've killed two people. What are the chances if you upset this person, if you don't go along with something they want to do, that you're going to be the next victim. Yeah. There's no reason why he wouldn't kill you. Now, we can ask the question, why didn't he go to the police? Yeah. And most likely,

I would think the answer is because he would have had to have implicated himself and he probably didn't want to do that. No, not at this point. I mean, he's guilty of multiple rapes and murders. By September 4th, the police were investigating service stations in the area where the Bidstrup and Clark vehicle was found. They discovered that Danny Rains had a criminal record that included pointing a gun at a couple in 1967 and abducting a teen girl. Investigators also learned that Brent Costa often hung out with him at the service station. They were both brought in for questioning in that case. And in my mind, I was thinking Gibbs, it was just going to be a matter of time, right?

That full gas tank was going to lead them at some point to that service station. Maybe some others as well, but definitely to that one. Yeah. And questions will be asked. Costor's attorney told him if he told the full truth that he could plead guilty to second degree murder and get a lighter sentence. Brent Costor admitted his guilt in the double murder and implicated Danny. They were arrested that evening.

Brent gave details about the murder of Pamela Fearnau, which led to further charges against Danny. So as we wrap up this first episode, there's a lot going on. Right. We have two brothers, serial killers. One of the brothers takes an accomplice who kind of becomes a serial killer as well, I guess you could say. Yeah. A killer at the very least. But in the end, he brings Danny down along with himself. He's going to be in big trouble too. Oh, yeah. Now, is he going to get a lighter sentence? Yeah, he probably is, but he's not going to get off Scott Free. He did kill and rape two women. He's going to have to do some time. Yeah, he's going to have to be accountable for his actions. In part two, we'll cover the final stages of the investigation, the trial of Danny Raines, and how the brothers continued to make headlines in the decades that followed.

And I'm still struck by the fact that you have two brothers, serial killers, who operated independently of each other. Could you make a case for? for the environment they grew up in. Being a contributing factor? Yeah. My thought is it's probably never just one thing. Did it play a part?

I'm sure it did. But like we said many times, a lot of people go through very rough childhoods. They don't end up becoming serial killers, but you would have to say it was a contributing factor, I'm sure. We've also seen people who had great childhoods, who ended up being,

serial killers for whatever reason. So it's got to be a combination of thing. Is there, you know, some nature built in? Is there some nurture that that gets thrown in the mix? I think so. I think there's a little bit of this and a little bit of that that, you know, all culminates in someone making the decision to become a serial killer. But that's like, you know, you being a serial killer and having this prolifer. And having this prolifer, career for the lack of a better choice of words. And then, you know, you're talking to your brother years down the road. And somehow the subject comes up and you find out that, that he, he's a serial killer

too. Yeah. Or he gets caught or you get caught. And, and one of the other finds out. I mean, what are the odds? I mean, what are the odds that one person out of a family becomes a serial killer? It can't be that great. No.

But the odds that two brothers independently of each other become serial killers, I don't even know what the odds of that are. And I think it's why, or at least part of why this is such a fascinating case. And you can't leave out Brent Costa. I think this is a kid who was looking for someone in his life, a role model, a father figure, whatever it was. And I think he thought he found that person in Danny Raine. and then, you know, he gains the knowledge that this guy's a killer and he wants him to kill.

He goes along with it. But at a certain point, I think fear got the better of him. And he was afraid that, you know, Danny was going to kill him and everything kind of broke down from there. And he pretty quickly turned on him once investigators started looking into him. Yeah, yeah. Took his attorney's advice. which was probably not bad advice. Because if he doesn't plead to second degree murder,

you know, if he holds out and he says, no, I didn't do it, I didn't do it. I'm not guilty. And he goes to trial. And he's found guilty by a jury.

You know for a fact he's getting more than second degree murder. Oh yeah. And he's going to get a much, much harsher sentence. But we'll talk about, you know, all that stuff in part two. We got some voicemails,

Gibbs, you want to check those out? Yes, Sarah. Hey, y'all. This is Tristan from Georgia. I just wanted to say how much I enjoy your show. I'm a teacher and I get to school super early in the morning. I like to get there first and get some work done before the other teachers come in with some good gossip. But I'm always listening to your show in the morning.

It gets my day going. And I just really appreciate it. I also wanted to say that I am a huge. Atlanta Braves fan and always have been. And my favorite announcer is Joe Simpson. And Gibby, I just have to say you and Joe sound so much alike. And y'all have such similar personalities. And when you make your little comments, it just makes me happy.

And it helps get me through the off season. So I really enjoy that. And I also want to say that I appreciate how much emphasis I'll put on the victims. because they kind of get lost in the notorious names. And so I really do appreciate that. So just keep up the good work and keep your time of chicken and keep dropping race country. Bye. All right.

Thank you, Tristan, for the voicemail. So basically what she's saying, Ghibi, is that you could be a professional baseball announcer. That is correct. Stere right. To tell Joe, hey, you need somebody's up for you. Use that same voice. Call me. The other thing I will say is that teachers do have the best gossip. They do. Don't think you know that. I do know that. You live it. I live it every day. Hey guys. This is Jason from Middle Tennessee again. I've listened to you guys for years and I just left

the voicemail earlier and I listened to you guys for years and I've heard other people leave voicemails and I've always thought if I ever leave a voicemail, I'll probably kill it, you know, because I planted it out in the head, and as soon as the beef went off, I forgot pretty much everything I needed to say. I installed hardwood flooring. I listen to you guys all day long while I do that. You guys are hilarious. I love you both.

You're great. The show is great. The information's great. The delivery's great. You guys scrapped me up and keep me laughing and keep me in a good mood all day. But I wanted to give you that piece of information. I didn't know if either one of you guys had ever drafted or didn't know. anything about that. So I just wanted to let you know, but, uh, but I, I want you to know your

show's great and, and everything. We really, we're all out here and listening to land really enjoy it. But, uh, again, keep your own time ticking and we'll see you guys later. All right. So that was Jason. I actually thought that was Jason Aldean at first. Kind of sounded. Yeah. Yeah. Country star. But he did leave an earlier voicemail that he didn't play. it was all around hunting rats. You had talked about it in one of the episodes of how hard it would be to shoot a rat, and he was telling you that it's not. It's easy.

It's not that hard. Easy to do. But I left that part out because the second part was... I like the fact that he does hardwood floors, man. Yeah. It's not easy. It's kick ass. It's hard on the knees.

Yeah, hard on a lot of things. On the back. Yeah. All right. We had no mail bag. So that's it, man. for another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike and Gibby,

stay safe and keep your own time ticking.