True Crime All The Time - Larry and Danny Ranes Part 2

Episode Date: April 1, 2024

Larry and Danny Ranes were serial killer brothers who primarily targeted victims near Kalamazoo, Michigan. Larry and Danny were suspected of committing multiple murders. Danny enlisted the help of a teenage accomplice named Brent Koster in some of his crimesJoin Mike and Gibby for this second and last episode on Larry and Danny Ranes. What makes the Ranes brothers unique is that they killed victims independently. This is thought to be the only known instance in US history where one family produced two serial killers at separate times in unrelated incidents. We cover the rest of the investigation, the trials of Danny and Brent Koster, and the headlines the brothers made in later years.You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 367 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson. And with me as always is my partner in True Crime, Mike Gibson. Give me, how are you? Hey, man, I'm doing really good. You want to ask me how I'm doing? I was getting ready to ask you. You took a long pause, my friend.

I wanted to make sure I phrased it correctly. How hard is it to phrase it? You've done it 367 times on this podcast alone. I just want to get it perfect. So how are you? I've been better. You know, my team got bounced in the first round. They laid an egg.

Yeah, they did. And ruined the whole NCAA tournament for me. It ruined a lot of people's brackets. Oh, yeah, it did. But for me, it ruined the whole tournament because I just didn't even want to watch a single game. I was so upset about it. Maybe next year you can coach them. I don't know if I could have done any worse.

I'm going to tell you right now. I don't know. Hey, let's go ahead and give our Patreon shoutouts. We had Megan Dugger jump out to our highest level. Hey, Megan. Angie Girl. What's going on, Angie? Cindy Hollenbeck.

Hey, there's Hollenbeck. Kelly Thompson. Oh, thank you, Kelly. Nikki Scott. What's going on, Nikki? Rico. Rico Suave. Ashley Marie.

Hey, Ashley. M. Good old M. We love him. Darren Harris. Hey, there's Darren. Cassandra Labom. Ah, Cassandra.

Bohemian. As in that other bohemian, you know, the word, I have a problem saying. You tried to say it on Patreon and it didn't go well. Seth Keener jumped out at our highest level. Hey, thanks, Seth. Charlotte Upton. Oh, I appreciate that, Upton. And last but not least, Sarah Parker.

Hey, Parker. And then if we go back into the vault, this week, we selected our good friend Katie O'Connor. There's Katie. Love it. Yeah, been with us a long time. Send us a lot of stuff in the mail. Sure has.

You know, communicates with us a lot. We love her. We also had a great PayPal donation from Robin Taylor. Hey, thanks, Robin. So speaking of Patreon, we dropped an episode, Saturday night on Anthony Garcia. This guy was a gang member. He was involved in the shooting of a rival gang member,

but it's the way he got caught years down the road. Not the smartest guy. That really kind of made the case compelling. He essentially got a tattoo of the entire crime scene. Yeah. Recreated it down to like the minute. detail. And somebody, you know, a detective recognized it. So shocker, he is now in prison. Yes. And some people have called him one of the dumbest criminals in history. We also have a new

episode out on true crime all the time unsolved where we're talking about the Curia family murders. Jane Curia, her three children and a young cousin. We're all staying in the same house, they went to bed and were attacked while they slept. Riddle case. It turned out to be a triple homicide. Some people live, but three people died. So make sure you check that out. All right, buddy, are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime All the Time?

I am ready. We are on to part two. And the last part on Danny and Larry Rains. In part one, we covered the killer's early lives, the crimes leading up to the arrest of Danny reigns in 1972, kind of left off with Danny and Brent Koster committing murders together and Brent getting scared. He would later say that he thought Danny was going to kill him. I think that was a pretty valid fear. Oh, I think so. On his part. Then once investigators were onto them, Brent cut a deal and he, you know, kind of rolled on Danny. And part two, we'll go

through the final stages of the investigation, the trial of Danny Raines, and then how the brothers continued to make headlines in the decades that followed. So Brent Costa led the police to Pamela Fear Now's body. On October 18th, Pamela was still considered a missing person. Her friend said that they hadn't seen her since August 5th when she went out to run an errand. Her remains were skeletal by this point, but she was identified by her jawbone. Additionally, Pamela was found less than a mile from Linda Clark and Claudia Bidstrip. So some, so the same general area. Yeah, I would say when you're talking about less than a mile, you know, that's, that's pretty close. And it is something that we often see from killers. You know, how many times Gibbs can you think back to episodes where it seems

is though killers like some, I don't know if you call it, sense of familiarity where they develop like a dumping ground. Yeah. You know, it's, it's not like all killers go out of their way to bury their victims in remote areas far away from each other. We've seen where three, four, five bodies have been found in the same exact location. Because they're familiar with the area. They are and they probably know that they're not likely to be spotted. They feel safer there. I understand the reasoning behind it.

But I think if the police, you know, figure out who you are, then it's going to hurt you. Yeah, well, I agree. I don't want killers to stop doing it. Or actually, I would like for them to stop killing. But you know what I mean. Generally, yes. Generally. Brent said that Danny was the instigator in this murder.

He also told detectives about Danny's confession to the murder of Patricia Howard. So if you remember, right, from episode one, Danny was a killer. He groomed, I guess you would say. Brent Koster got to the point where he enlisted him in helping him to murder. but Danny committed some of them on his own and then Danny and Brent committed murders together. Danny was charged with her murder that same day. Prosecutors wanted to have Brent charged as an adult because of the seriousness of his crimes and his previous criminal record.

However, they had to tread carefully because they also needed his testimony in order to convict Danny. And this is what we often see. it's why sometimes people who do horrendous things end up with what you would have to call kind of a sweetheart deal. Exactly. Because the prosecution really needs them to secure a conviction against someone else, maybe who has done even more horrendous things. A deal is made and sometimes it has to be made. Yeah, I mean, it's unfortunate that has to go that way, but it's the better of the,

Two evils, whatever that old saying is. I think it's the lesser of two evils. Yeah. Yeah. Something like that. I understand what you're saying. But I sometimes feel like, you know, someone is getting off much lighter than what they should. But I understand the mechanics behind it.

You don't want to let, in this case, Danny, who, you know, they believe to be the ring leader, you don't want to let him get off Scott free. So you make the deal. At this time, Larry Raines' legal proceedings were still ongoing. In part one, we learned that the Michigan Supreme Court granted him a retrial in 1971. However, on November 2nd, 1972, Larry Raines pleaded guilty to the murder of Gary Smock and was re-s sentenced to life in prison. All right. So brother, serial killer number one.

Yeah. Has been found guilty and is going to have a life sentence. And I'm not really sure what this guilty plea resulted in, like how it helped him. You know, he originally got life in prison with hard labor. This just said life in prison. So did he take a plea to knock off the hard labor? Maybe. Yeah, maybe.

No more moving the rocks. Maybe. It could have been. Danny's trial for the murder of Patricia Halk started in February, 1973. I mean, Gibbs, what do you think if you're part of this family? I mean, after the, I don't know if it's even embarrassment. It's more of a, what's the word? What's going on with our family?

Yeah. You know, did we do something wrong? And we did detail out their childhoods. Sure, we did. And obviously there was stuff going on. But even extended family by association, you've got to be heartbroken that you're even associated in any way. Well, I think, yeah, if you're somebody that knows the family, you're probably like,

do we need to worry about the cousins and the... Well, you always have to worry about cousins. Yes. You haven't said that in a long time because I'm still not sure what those are, but... But I think anybody related, are you, like, questioning? Like, could they be a serial killer too? Yeah, because this is so unheard of. Yes, it is unheard of.

and that's why, you know, it's so interesting. Brent Koster was the star witness and described Danny's detailed confession. Danny's ex-wife, Kathy, testified that a few days after the murder, she noticed a scratch on Danny's face. He claimed he was injured while tearing down a garage for his mother and stepfather. However, he told Kathy that his own mother suspected him of killing the woman at the department store and told him he's better have a good alibi. There's a mom for you. Son, just make sure you got a good alibi.

Well, you know, that question comes up quite a bit. If you knew that your son or daughter had done something terrible, would you turn them in? It's a tougher answer for some people. I mean, who wants to see their child go to prison? I would hope not too many. But on the other hand, your child took someone's life, let's say. Yeah, and you know, right is right, wrong is wrong. Right.

So there's a moral kind of obligation there for a lot of people. Now, do you think if your mother knew, your wife knew, and your mother-in-law knew, which one would be the first one that turned yourself in, turn you in? In order, I would go mother-in-law, wife, and my mom. In that order, descending. I think a lot of people would have that. It's very similar order. Yeah. But his mom didn't know for sure, right?

It was said that she suspected him. Right. Of killing. Now, okay, is she going to phone the police and say, I think my son did this? No, she didn't do that. She just said, you better have a good alibi. In January, 1973, a prison guard found a ripped up note in the toilet of Danny's jail cell. He wrote that he was looking for a woman who would accept payment to lie for him.

and give him an alibi for the night of Patricia's murder. He also wanted the woman to say he had a bandaid on his cheek at that time. Wait, can we just go back to the fact that a prison guard was fishing in a prison toilet? Well, he could have been looking for some pruno or some, you know, toilet wine. Yeah. Maybe stuff down in there. I mean, I think of the job description. I'd be like, you know what?

It stops here. I'm not putting my hand into a toll at the fish a note out. Well, maybe he had a net or something. I don't know. Like a fish, like one of those little nets. They can afford them at the prisons. Dip fish out of them. But this is pretty damning.

It is. Right? I mean, you have this note basically kind of laying it out. He is looking for someone to lie for him, give him an alibi. And he also wants them to say that he was wearing a bandaid because he's got to cover. Yeah. How did you get that on your face? Yeah.

He's got to cover. both things. Number one, you have to have an alibi and then you have to explain the scratch on your cheek that, you know, your wife has talked about. Dr. Daniel Glaster testified that Patricia died from a stab wound to the back that was so deep. It almost went through her entire body. She had bruises all over her body and ligature marks on her wrists and neck. And we've done a lot of I don't know if I've ever heard of that. We've talked about some very vicious stabbing. Sure.

And a large number of stabbings. But I don't know if I've ever heard the description that one was so deep, it, you know, essentially almost penetrated the entire body. I mean, if someone's on the skinny side with my K-bar knife, it would probably go through. Okay. It's a gruesome thought. but I appreciate it. A member of the crime lab testified that traces of semen were found on Patricia's underwear.

But remember, this is like, you know, 72, 73. Yeah. Obviously, we're many, many years before DNA. On March 2nd, 1973, Danny Raines was convicted of two charges, second degree murder and first degree murder in the perpetration of rape. he received two life sentences without parole. So both brothers now are locked up for life. Two serial killers, both with life sentences.

And Danny's, you know, you're talking two life sentences without the possibility of parole. And I have no problem with that. I feel like that is just. That's fair. What I will say is you and I have done a lot of cases, you know, 60s and 70s where people just didn't seem to get the sentences that we thought they should have gotten. No, pretty light. But here it seems like they really put the hammer down.

Yeah, yeah. And it's not over for Danny yet. No, because he had to go to trial for the murder of Pamela Fear now. That trial started in July 1973. And again, Brent Koster was the star witness. He testified about how they both raised. and murdered Pamela. And again, going back to, you know, why you make the deal.

Because without it, is Brent Koster going to get on the stand and admit to raping and murdering with Danny? No, he's going to try to cover his own ass. Right. So, but now he has the deal. He can say whatever. He's not going to get any more. No.

Tom. Exactly. Two witnesses testified that Danny discussed. the murder in jail, 17-year-old Richard Feet testified that Danny asked him to tell authorities that Brent confessed a lying about Danny's involvement. Danny wanted Fee to say he was with Pamela for sex and that Brent killed her when he left to buy beer. This guy is trying to everything, which again, maybe this was before he already had the two life sentences and he was trying to get out of both of them. If it was after, I kind of like, well.

What's the point now? Yeah, I mean, it's just kind of wasting your time. But he's just walking around to people and saying, Hey, can you tell the authorities that Brent confessed to you that he's lying? This and this happened. And it really helped me out, man. And maybe there was, you know, a deal for cigarettes or sexual favors. I don't know.

It had to be for something. I'm sure nobody was going to do this for free. Or just to be a nice guy. Yeah. 28-year-old Lee Keaton testified that Danny asked him to hire someone to kill Brent before his first trial. So it's really almost an understatement to say that Danny was willing to do anything and everything to stop Brent from getting up on the stand and telling the truth. And then even after he did, he tried to get people to discredit him. Yeah.

Obviously, if you kill him before the first trial, then, you know, maybe the state doesn't have the evidence to convict without their star witness. On July 21st, Danny was convicted of first degree murder. He received another life sentence. So that's three. That's three. At what point do you stop carrying how many life sentences you have? I would think you have reached that point already.

But if you're the victim's sentence. family. Do you want one of those life sentences to count for your loved one? Yeah, I think you would. You know, I mean, I get it. You can say, well, it's costing the state money. He's not going anywhere. He's got three life sentences. Yeah. Without parole, he's, he's staying right where he's at. And sometimes prosecutors make that decision. You know, they're not going to spend the money to obtain more convictions because this person's going to die in prison. But you also can see the family saying that we want our time. Yeah, well, they want justice for their loved one.

And Danny was facing a third trial for the murders of Linda Clark and Claudia Bidstrip at his preliminary hearing in March. Brent Koster testified that Danny made plans to kidnap a customer at the service station. They experimented with the lighting at the service station so that they could have a secluded area. And we mentioned it in episode one. You know, eventually they drove around to the back.

And I think that's where they had messed with the lighting to make it darker so that no one could see what was going on. Prosecutors noted that the blanket that covered the girl's bodies belonged to Danny. And the rope on their necks matched the rope he gave to his stepfather. A patrol officer also tells us. testified that he saw him in the area with his van. On August 9th, 1973, Danny pleaded no contest to second degree murder and received two more life sentences. Well, and he really didn't stand a chance. So good thing that he did plead that. But now he's got five, five life sentences. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Okay. It's not like Monopoly. Once you get four houses, you get a hotel,

you know, it's like five life sentences. And like we talked about. You know, does he plead no contest? Because at this point, it just doesn't matter. He's never getting out. What's two more? And I always have this question of, you know, at a certain point, does some of these people even want to to sit in a trial and be judged again? Or would they just rather, you know, plead and go back to their cell and not have to deal with all that? Yeah, maybe. You know, just like, hey, I know where this is at it. I don't want to waste my time. So I'll just go ahead and plea and, you know,

let me get back to my cell and my favorite cell buddy. Bren agreed to plead no contest to one count of second-degree murder in the Clark and Bidstrip case. His attorney appealed his waiver from juvenile court, which put his case on hold. The Michigan Supreme Court eventually agreed to hear arguments about his juvenile waiver. By 1975, the proceedings were still long.

ongoing and Brent's attorney requested a delay in his pleading. The judge denied the request and set his trial for June or July. In June, Brent offered to plead guilty due to the uncertain status of his appeal. So on June 11, 1975, Brent Costa, who by then was 18 years old, pleaded guilty to the murder of Linda Clark. On July 21st, he was sentenced to life in prison with the possibility of parole. But Judge Patrick McColley recommended that Brent never be paroled. According to M Live, the judge told Brent, the crimes you and Mr. Raines are guilty of are the types of crime that justifies.

In my opinion, consideration of reestablishing the death penalty. What my personal beliefs are is immaterial. I do feel, Mr. Costa, that you should not ever be released back into free. society. Now, what I find fascinating here is that essentially he could end up with the same fate as Danny Raines. He could die in prison. This is after he put together a plea. But now you find out that he really didn't get a quote unquote plea deal. And it sounds to me like the whole thing was centered around him thinking he was going to be tried as a, as a juvenile. So he agreed to testify against Danny.

Years went by and they couldn't make a decision or hadn't made a decision. And he ended up pleading guilty to murder. I mean, he did get the possibility of parole. But he was a juvenile at the time he committed the murder. So I'm assuming that was taken into account. It just, it seemed like he was going to. get a much better deal based on his cooperation. But that's not really the way it turned out.

Now, did he get less than Danny Raines? Yes. But he still got a life sentence. He just got parole, the ability to be paroled, where Danny did not. But the judge is saying,

hey, I don't think you should ever be paroled. So if you don't get paroled, essentially you got the same exact thing. Before he was transported to prison, Brent asked a reporter from the Kalamazoo Gazette not to portray him as a hardened criminal. He said he hoped to serve 15 to 25 years, but mentioned that there was built in parole consideration after 10 years. So maybe that was part of, I don't want to call it a plea deal, but maybe that was

part of why he did what he did. Yeah, potentially. Knowing that he could get out after 10 years, I'm not sure. I mean, he even said himself, I hope to serve 15 to 25. And even that maybe was being a little optimistic. I don't know. On a life sentence? Seems like it. But also, what about asking a reporter, hey, please don't portray me as a hardened criminal.

Now, I get it. The kid was a juvenile. And I do believe, even though he had a criminal record, that Danny Rain, Raines was the person who kind of led him down this patch. Sure. Yeah. But he did murder. Yeah, he still did all the things he did. So he just didn't want to be, you know, portrayed in the newspaper as a hardened criminal. It just seems strange to me what people are worried about as you're being transported to prison for a life sentence with the possibility of parole. You're worried about how you're going to look in the newspaper. Don't make me look too bad because eventually I'm going to get out. I don't want to

have to deal with all that after the fact. Brent said that he was a runaway. When he met Danny Raines, he'd already stolen cars and committed over a dozen burglaries. And at the time was, quote, game for anything. When asked why he participated in murders and rapes, Brent said, there's a reason for everything. But I can't pin one on that. And I thought that was a very strange answer because he had kind of made quite a, a bit out of, you know, Danny enlisting him.

And at one point, I thought he was, you know, going down the path of, you know, I didn't like the first murder. I didn't like the feeling. But I went along with it again because I was afraid of what Danny Raines would do to me. But now he's not saying any of that. So he's saying there's a reason for it. He just can't figure it out. Yeah.

he can't put his finger on it, or he's not willing to say one of the other. By this point, Larry Raines had been in prison for a decade. In the early 70s, he changed his name to monk Steppenwolf after the protagonist of the 1927 novel Steppenwolf.

That sounds like some kind of strange move that you would make. Rex West, what? Exactly. In Steppenwolf, author Herman Hess explores the differences between physical and mental reality. Stepan Wolf was also partially autobiographical and reflects the author's failed marriages and suicidal tendencies. And we talked about it in episode one that at one point, Larry was either going to or tried to end his life. More importantly, Steppenwolf, a really good band.

Really good? Well, okay. I went too far. Maybe went a little overboard. Now I'm going to get an email from someone that says, Steppenwolf was the greatest band ever. Like the lead guitarist will reach out. Author and Professor Catherine Ramsland wrote,

In essence, this novel explores the idea that an individual is comprised of a multitude of selves. and via a trans-migration of souls can pass into several forms. All of life is a compromise of some type, and there are several chances to keep trying to get it right. Say what? I'm not saying it again, if that's what you're asking. But, you know, Catherine Ramsland is an extremely intelligent person. Morph and I have had her on criminology before,

and I've always been very impressed. Yes. by her. You've mentioned it before. But what is she saying that this novel is espousing? That basically just because, you know, you killed some people and you're in prison doesn't mean the end for you. You'll have another chance, right? Your soul will pass on to another form and you can keep getting chances to get things right. I'm not sure that's true. I don't want to, you know, put a damper on anyone's beliefs.

I don't know if this is talking about reincarnation, the afterlife. I'm not sure. But here on earth, you don't get a bunch of different chances after you've killed X number of people normally. Yeah, I would agree. You know, it's just after so many, it's unlikely. Well, it's kind of the life in prison with no parole. that makes it really hard for you to get another chance at it. What's a hamper on it?

Or a damper. Or a damper. I mean, you can put a hamper on it as well. I mean, it might have your socks and underwear and clothes and stuff in it. But hey, it's some really dirty laundry. Larry agreed to speak to English professor and author Conrad Hilberry in the mid-1970s. Hilberry reached out to him first. Larry was hesitant, but invited him to prison to talk about his family.

He wanted Hillsbury's work to be a serious study of his mind. He wanted to know why he could so calmly kill someone, yet be very reluctant to hurt someone. I find that interesting. And I think that's a good type of study. Oh, I do too because to me, this is a guy who's being very reflective. Like he's wanting to know how he could have done these things. Yeah. how he was capable of doing it.

Do you think he called him up and said, hey, this is Steppenwolf? I don't know. Yeah. Just something that I was wondering in my head. Because Hilberry probably would have said, you know, I'm just not that into that band. They're not that great. But Larry did explain that he changed his name because the Reins name had a bad reputation and he had hated it since he was a child.

Well, let me say this. If it didn't have a bad reputation, it certainly did by now between the two. brothers. Yeah, after two brothers were convicted of being serial killers. And that's kind of what I was, you know, getting at when you're talking about the rest of the family, extended family who are going to share that same last name, especially, you know, if you're living in the Kalamazoo area, because that's where both of these guys operated, you're going to get that question at the diner. Hey, are you related to those, uh, those Reins brothers who killed all those people? That's not going to be. be an easy conversation. No. In his interview, Larry denied that he killed gas station workers

because of displaced anger at his father. In his mind, they were simply the easiest target. Well, in one sense, he's right. They kind of are, they kind of were easy targets back in the day. Yeah, because I think a lot of times people were working by themselves in a lot of these gas stations. you know, we're not talking about a buckies, right? Or these gas stations, some of them nowadays are so big, they're like department stores. They have people working all over. And even regular gas stations, I think normally have a couple people in there. But I'm sure in the 1970s, there were a lot of gas stations where especially at night,

maybe just one person was working. They come out and pump the gas for you. Yeah, they actually did a lot too back then. But isn't this something that we see from many killers? When they talk about why they selected victims, a lot of times it comes down to what they believe to be the easiest or most vulnerable of targets. That's why so many serial killers target sex workers, because they know that they're going to be able to get them in their car. They're going to be able to be alone with them.

Whereas, you know, a woman walking down the street if you pulled over is not going to get in your car, most likely. Hillberry also spoke to Danny and his former wife, Kathy. He wrote about his first impression of Danny. He is urgently and persistently rethinking the past, going over the events in his mind and rearranging them, changing them so that the story comes out the way it ought to have rather than the way it was. And I thought that was just an extremely interesting statement. I would have found it so interesting just to be there to have some of these conversations. Or just to listen in on them. Yeah. Well, in this one in particular, I would think that this is what a lot of people,

people in prison do. You know, reflect on the events of the past. And I'm not saying that everyone is remorseful about them. I'm not saying that people are, you know, lying awake at night, crying about what they did, but more so thinking about maybe how they could have done things differently so that they would have gotten away with it. And I kind of feel like that's what Hillberry is saying. He's rearranging, changing the story so that it ends up the way he feels like it should have ended. Now, Hillberry did not believe Danny was a psychopath like his brother because he did not show what Hillberry called shallow effect. Some people who knew Danny believed his competitiveness with Larry triggered his murder spree. In her interview, Kathy said she continued seeing Danny

after she divorced him, which is why she noticed the scratch on his cheek after the murder of Patricia Halk. She told Hilberry she had vague impressions that he killed someone on two occasions in 1972, which coincided with actual murders. So she kind of knew. But shockingly, Kathy married Larry Raines in March of 1975. How bizarre is that? Well, if you remember back in episode one, we talked about the fact that the brothers both dated Kathy in high school at the same time. Larry got in trouble, you know, decided to join the army.

And while he was gone, Danny married Kathy and they had some kids together. But this is a guy who's in prison. Yeah. Not slated to get out. Nope. And she ends up marrying him. She's an S-K-L. Serial killer lover?

Yeah. Oh, I got that pretty quick. Yeah, you did. She told Hilberry that she was first attracted to Larry when they were in school together, but he wasn't interested in her. She moved on to Danny when Larry went to prison, and she married him because she got pregnant. But she and Larry wrote to each other and fell in love through letters, which caused fights with Danny.

Hilberry's book indicated that Kathy hoped Larry would be released one day, But he said he never wanted to leave prison. Well, that's novel. You don't hear that very often. Most people are fighting, scratching, crawling, trying to get out of prison. Here's the guy who says, you know what, I don't really want to get out of prison.

Well, maybe he thought it was safer for him or maybe safer for the public for him to be in there. Yeah, that'd be interesting if that was the reason why. But I'm still just kind of finding it strange. She was married to a known killer and divorced and then said, you know what, I want to marry another guy that's just as bad. Who happens to be the brother of my ex-husband. Yeah. Not just another killer.

It just seems really odd. Yeah, I think that's putting it mildly. And then I'm trying to figure out, how do the kids feel about this? I mean, their dad's already a serial. killer. Their uncle's one. And their mom's been married to both of them. Yeah, there's, there's going to be a need for copious amounts of therapy. Yeah, I would think. In 1979, Larry told Conrad Hilberry, he no longer had a wife, but by 1980, he was married again. I'm always fascinated how easy it is for these people to get married, to find someone on the outside who wants to marry

though. Some people just like the notoriety being married to somebody like that. I remember that one girl married Charles Manson, you know, all her friends said, why are you doing this? And, you know, people thought she was nuts. But here's the difference. Everyone knows who Charles Manson is. So when you use the word notoriety, nobody knows who the hell Larry Raines is. No, unless you live in that town, right? Unless we're talking about Michigan, whatever, Kalamazoo notoriety. Danny Raines filed an appeal arguing the two convictions in the Halk murder saying that they constituted double jeopardy. In 1979, his second degree conviction was canceled, which took away one life sentence.

Now, this goes back to our conversation of at what point do you stop prosecuting someone because they already have X amount of life sentences. Yeah. And this is one of the reasons why you sometimes move forward. Sometimes some of these get taken away. At least you know that you have this security blanket of many other convictions. And then other times, you know, prosecutors make the decision because there is no statute of limitations on murder that they could always go back and try them later if they needed to.

Yeah, we'll be there pick you up on your day of release, put you back in jail until we get the conviction for the other murder. In 1981, the Supreme Court set aside the other conviction in the Hout case, ruling that the judge failed to inform the jury. They could consider second-degree murder as a verdict for the charge of murder in the perpetration of rape. The prosecution could either retry Danny or give him a sentence for second-degree murder, which came with the possible. possibility of parole. Prosecutors thought it would be difficult to retry him for the murder of Patricia Halk, so they chose not to. So now it was only his conviction for the murder of Pamela Fier now that would ensure he stayed in prison for the rest of his life. That'd be somewhat scary for some of the family members out there thinking that, whoa, we just went from all these convictions.

Now we're down to only this one. Yeah, I'm sure some people were concerned when they saw a couple of the life sentences drop off. In August 1986, Larry did a prison interview for the Detroit Free Press. He talked about how his mother, sister, and a former romantic partner visited him in prison. He also said he hadn't spoken to Danny

since the late 1960s. It's a long time. It is a long time, but it also kind of highlights how separate these killers were. Now, there was the notion put for that maybe brotherly competitiveness drove Danny. Right.

You know, his brother Larry had killed. Well, I'm going to outdo him. Yeah, I can do it better. I'll show you. Yeah, that was put forth. I don't know if there's any truth to it. Larry spoke about his arrest in June 1964 saying, I turned myself in to get killed.

I didn't turn myself in to due time. All right. I thought they had the electric chair. And this goes back to us talking about the fact that he did try to end his life. Now he's saying he turned himself in because he thought they were going to kill him. That makes what he said earlier about not wanting to get out of prison make even less sense. Yeah, to me, some of these statements are conflicting for sure. He also said, I've tried to use a lot of their theories to understand myself those quaint,

ever so perfect explanations and they just don't wash in the final analysis. The bottom line is that I didn't give a damn. I didn't care. My world was destroyed. I had nothing whatsoever in this world that I thought was of any value. When you don't care and your world is gone, it's just a matter of time before other people's worlds become unimportant to you. Now, if that is a truthful statement, I think it's very telling.

Yeah, I agree. Because I can see where that would come into play for some killers. You know, I've got nothing. Therefore, I've got nothing to lose. I don't care about myself. And so therefore, I don't care about anyone else either or what happens to them. I think he's had some time to think and he's just being honest, you know, here. You know, I'll just cut to the point, make it short and sweet. This is why I did what I did. It sounds like it. Yeah. Larry discussed other aspects of his life in prison.

He said he got into bodybuilding in the early 1970s, but at one point, he didn't eat for 29 days. That's pretty amazing that the fact that he lasted that long, because normally they say you can't last without food for three weeks. Well, if he was a bodybuilder, maybe he had more mass than the normal person, I don't know. That's true. The body starts eating itself. He also said he earned money through. loaning money, sewing slippers, and drawing.

So he's a loan shark, he's a tailor, and he's an artist. Tinker Taylor, soldier. It was also reported that Larry faced disciplinary action when prison officials learned of a conspiracy to kill a prisoner with a homemade crossbow designed by Larry. So he's an engineer as well. He's also designing crossbows. as the years passed, the Reins brothers were seemingly forgotten by most people, except for the victim's families. Brent Koster was first eligible for parole after 10 years in prison, but he was consistently denied parole.

He didn't file an appeal until 1992. In 2002, he filed a lengthy document with the U.S. District Court in Detroit after his state appeals were rejected. He argued that his sentencing negated any benefit of the plea deal in that his attorney did not bring up mitigating factors. And you and I were very confused about this plea deal. Yeah. Didn't seem to benefit him all that greatly. I'm not sure what it wasn't. I'm surprised it took him this long to figure it out, though, to raise it up. Well, yeah, 2002.

I mean, you are talking, what, almost 30 years? And remember he said he hoped to do 15 to 25. Technically he could have gotten out in 10. But obviously we're way past that. Koster wrote per M live, counsel even failed to raise the psychological dynamics that led a vulnerable 15 year old kid to become involved with a seasoned adult convict almost twice his age,

a relationship that resulted in horrific crimes. And I think there is some validity. to that. I don't know if it would have changed the result, but you could make the argument that a good defense attorney should have brought that up. Oh, I agree. Yeah, for sure. In 1998,

Brent did an evaluation to determine his chances of recidivism. According to M Live, Dr. William Brooks found that Brent was fearful and nervous after the murders and had no desire to hurt women. He seemed, have a limited idea of the experience of the victims and demonstrated little empathy in describing the victims as nervous and apprehensive. And Brent actually said that. We talked about it in episode

one. After he experienced the first murderer, he said he didn't want to do that again. Now, whether he was being honest about that, that's a question. And obviously, what this doctor is formulating is all based on conversations that he's having with Brent. So I always think that it matters, right? How truthful the person is being. He said in Danny Raines, Brent found perhaps the most substantive relationship of his young life. Mr. Costa unfortunately bonded with Mr. Raines and became at the onset an unsuspecting accomplice with an individual who had already committed murder.

by himself. At the important juncture of deciding to splinter off from his association with Danny Raines, when it became apparent that he was going to participate in rape and murder, Mr. Costa failed to separate. Dr. Brooks wrote that Brent was unlikely to commit violent acts in the future. He was struck by Costor's straightforwardness, the honesty and sincerity, and the profound impact the incarceration has had on Mr. Costa. These are all things that Dr. Brooks wrote. Family members were devastated on September 10th, 2020, when Brent Costa, now 64 years old, was granted parole.

And my thought is, I don't know if it matters how long a person is in prison. At the time when they get parole, it is going to be devastating for the family. Yeah, I agree. I don't think anybody on that. side, the family side, the victim side is saying, let them out, you know. Yeah, it happens every now and then. Yeah. We hear of, you know, someone within a victim's family saying, I think they've done their time,

or I think they've changed or whatever. But I think for the most part, it's going to be tough. Yeah. You just want that person to continue to pay for what they did. I mean, he got out at 64, so he. He was in there almost 50 years. Yeah. He was just so young.

Basically his whole adulthood. He started off before he was even an adult. Yeah. So he was in prison his entire adult life to the age of 64. Lori Locke's Pamela Fear Now's sister told him live, I'm sick to my stomach. I do not understand how a man that helped kill three women and rape them is able to get on parole. I guess our justice system made a big mistake in 1972. Yeah, I understand what she's saying, but I also think the reason this happened is because

of that pseudo plea deal. Did you say pseudo? Sudo. I thought you were going to go Sousoo Sudeo there for a minute on me. Betty Schimel, another sister of Pamela, said, I don't blame him so much. He wasn't smart enough or secure enough in his own life to fight the demon off. Danny Raines was a wicked evil man. So here we,

you know, we have a differing of opinions between the two sisters. I think they both thought Danny Raines was a monster. One of them thought Brent should never get out as well. The other one thought he was manipulated. Yeah. And maybe she was taking into account his age. You know, he was young.

And I do think he was manipulated in a way. by Danny Raines, it's just hard to tell how honest he was. And you'll never know. No, you'll never know because he did the acts. Right.

But did he do them because he wanted to or because he was fearful of Danny because there is a difference there. It's a subtle difference. You still killed. You still killed, yeah.

And his hearing, Koster agreed with the judge who said he should never get out of prison but he added, I would like to be given the opportunity to serve the rest of my remaining days in a free community rather than die in prison. I realize what I did. I realize that it is horribly wrong. But there are circumstances that got me involved in this.

And one of them is, I mean, I know it's rare form to blame the co-defendant, but I was, well, shall we say, under the influence. Not I know what I did. I accept responsibility. for that, but if it was not for my co-defendant, I would not be sitting here. And I kind of got a sense of that, too. Would Brent Koster, having never met Danny Rings, have decided to go out and become a serial killer?

And my thought was, no, probably not. No, I mean, he didn't have the greatest background, right? But he wasn't a killer. He said about the victims and their families, it must have been horrible. I know that. I can't even begin to realize the pain and suffering that they went through. The only thing I can compare it to is when I lost my father and my mother and the pain and hurt that I went through.

But I can imagine it would be nowhere compared to what the families went through. And I do think it's kind of hard to make that comparison. It's tough to lose your parents. Absolutely. But there's a big difference between your parents dying and having a loved one taken away from you through the act of rape and murder. Yeah, I don't think there's any way to compare. It was noted that Brent was a model prisoner and became a paralegal. Sandra Gerard from prison legal services told the parole board that Brent was a highly skilled paralegal.

As quoted by M Live, Gerard said at 15, of course, we all know that the brain is not fully developed, even until the age of 25. And teenagers are more likely to be rehabilitated or to change than adults who commit crimes. And I fully believe that Brent is rehabilitated and is not a threat whatsoever to society. I mean, at least he used his time in prison to better himself. It sounds like he wasn't getting in trouble. It was said he was a model prisoner. He did better himself by becoming a paralegal. And I thought that he said, you know, a lot of the right thing.

He expressed remorse to the family. Again, is that heartfelt or is that what he knew he had to do or say to get parole? Those questions are hard to answer. They are. I mean, you can kind of see early on that he felt a politely. If he was telling the truth. If he was telling the truth. He was telling the truth. It carried all the way through.

I think the one thing that you can say is, you know, he didn't act like some other killers that we've talked about. Right. Who are, you know, defiant the whole way through. Killing people in prison, cussing out the victim's families at, you know, sentencing hearings. That wasn't this guy. Now, it doesn't diminish the fact that he. he raped and murdered. Terrible.

Multiple women. But I think you do have to point out mitigating factors. Doesn't excuse what he did, but there were mitigating factors. And you just have to take them into account. Brent talked about growing up in a dysfunctional family with a troubled mother. He moved off of it and felt the need to be accepted. And he found that acceptance with Danny Raines. He thought Danny was smart.

And he talked about his adventures and relationships. with women. And this is something we spent time on in episode one. I truly believe that Brent was looking for a father figure, a role model, somebody because he just didn't have anyone like that in his life. Right. Now, the problem is he happened to find a guy who was a murderer. And that's who he ended up looking up to. And he made the decision that he was going to go along with. with him. Brent's release date was set for early 2021. He was required to register as a sex offender and complete an intensive reentry unit program. He'll spend four years on probation. After 48 years in prison, Brent Koster was finally released on January 21st, 2021. He will be fully discharged from

his sentence on January 21st, 2025. So that's the last thing. So that's the last thing. a year away. Yeah, pretty close. Danny Raines died of natural causes at Michigan's Lakeland Correctional Facility on January 29, 2022. He was 78 years old. Prison staff found him unresponsive and attempted to revive him. He was pronounced dead by a doctor at a local hospital. There were no early signs of foul play or drug use. Larry Raines died of natural causes at the Saginaw correctional facility on November 12, 2023. He was also 78 years old.

And I thought this was strange that, you know, these two men died, you know, essentially a year apart. They were the same age. I don't know. Does it just add something to the story? Two brothers that turned out to be serial killers independent of each other who died at the same age.

On January 5th, The movie he went that way. Premereed in select theaters, the movie starring Zachary Quinto from Star Trek and Jacob Ilaherty from Euphoria is based on a true story involving Larry Rains. The story is inspired by the account of Survivor Dave Pitts, a celebrity animal trainer who went on a road trip with Larry Rains and his chimpanzee Spanky. On May 25th, 1964, Dave and his chimp were driving to Duluth, Minnesota, where Spanky was going to participate in a traveling ice skating show. They left from Los Angeles and were at the northern edge of Las Vegas when Dave saw a hitchhiker.

He looked like a preppy college kid. According to Pitts, the young man said he was trying to get to Michigan. Dave told him he would take him as far as Chicago. They spent the next three days, driving together. He had no idea that his passenger was 19-year-old Larry Raines, who had already murdered three people. According to Dave's son, Jonathan, Spanky, the chimpanzee started screaming when Larry got into the car, which indicated that he did not like him. Now, I have always thought, Gibbs, that when it comes to animals, they can sense evil or something.

Yeah, they know. Larry recognized Spanky from TV and was actually excited to travel. with them. They traveled through Utah and Wyoming, then stopped at a motel for the night. Larry slept in the car. The next day, they traveled through Colorado and Nebraska. That evening, Larry put a pistol to Dave's head. He said he was a killer in that his victims were people who'd given him a ride. Dave was shocked. But he told Larry that he could take the $150 he had in his wallet. Larry later recalled how the chimp jumped out. and hugged Dave. Larry ordered Dave to get into Spanky's cage. Larry drove with both of them in the cage.

Dave recalled that he talked to Spanky and tried to comfort his companion. And this is something else. I mean, this is a harrowing situation. Yeah. The chimpanzee recognizes it, jumps up to hug his owner, trainer. Right. Dave is trying to reassure Spanky. It's kind of a, touching thought. Really, if you think about it, in the midst of someone holding a gun and essentially kidnapping. They're worried about each other. So they're driving and by the time the sun rose, they were in Kansas. According to the Chicago Sun Times, Larry stopped and told Dave, how does it feel to talk your way out of death? Larry would later say, he couldn't bring himself to killed Dave and his beloved companion.

They spent the next 17 hours traveling together until they got to South Haven, Michigan. Dave was terrified and considered jumping out of the car, but he didn't want to leave Spanky behind. That's his best friend. Once they were in South Haven, Larry told Dave to pull over. Dave asked Larry for $10 from the money. He stole from him. Larry gave him 20 and told him not to tell anyone of.

about what happened for two weeks. He said he was going to end his life. But if he found out Dave talked before he did so, he would kill him. So Dave agree. And so we talked about in episode one, I think it was, you know, how many movies and documentaries have been made on killers or involving true crime. And I thought this was such an interesting story that I was kind of shocked. Right.

That no one had done anything on it. Now, there, there is a movie out. but it sounds like it just focuses on this one experience between Larry and Dave and Spanky. I haven't seen it, so I don't know. But I don't know that it's a comprehensive look at two brothers, you know, who were serial killers. But it could be a good movie because that's a very fascinating story. Yeah, sounds like it, you know. And plus I like monkeys.

Yeah. I bet you love those Clint Eastwood movies. I did, man. Every which way but loose. Yeah. When he used to get that orangutan to flip everybody, the bird. And it was kind of like, you know, we kind of knew how that life was. We'd go out the parking lot sometimes and we have those fist fights.

Sure. By the dumpster with different individuals, you'd set them up and you're like, all right, give you're up, you know. And then I'd bet against you, make a bunch of money. Absolutely. Yeah. So as we wrap this one up, Gibbs, you know, Larry and Danny Rank, were pretty similar killers in the way that they targeted victims.

It was based on opportunity, but they had distinct differences. It seemed like Larry wanted to be arrested because he wanted to end his life, which is very likely why he confessed to his friend in June 1964. I think Danny Raines most likely would have continued raping and murdering young women if he had not been caught, which is what we see more often than not with serial killers. I think Larry was more of the exception. Like he didn't want to do it anymore is the sense I got.

And, you know, he planned to end his life, even told Dave, you know, give me two weeks. Don't tell anyone for two weeks because I'm going to end my life. Yeah, I mean,

two evil brothers. Both evil. Yeah, both very evil. I would, you know personally i would say i think danny was more evil even more evil yes than larry maybe larry had a conscience may maybe something like that danny didn't seem to but but again i just feel like i think larry realized he was troubled yes and was trying to save others from himself maybe yeah i don't

if that's exactly the reason for it, but it seems like it could be. Even to the point where he said, you know, he turned himself in because he thought he would be killed in the electric chair. Yeah. But it was pretty, I don't want to say profound, but I still go back to what he said that when you have nothing left to live for, nothing, you start looking at other people's life as no value too. And then that's why it didn't. bug him. It didn't bother him to take other people's lives because he didn't value

their life. He didn't value his. So he didn't value theirs. Yeah. I think it was a kind of a profound statement. A look into like kind of how a serial killer thinks. Yeah. I'm not saying every one of them thinks that way. And then you also have

Danny befriending this Brent Koster. Yeah. And kind of working him up to the point where he introduces this idea of raping and murdering women. And it just adds, you know, another level, another dimension to this case, which is already fascinating because you have two brothers who both became serial killers, but didn't kill together. No, no. And like you said, but Danny, it's almost like he, pulled off some type of serial killer mastery by getting somebody else involved doing the same thing.

Someone who happened to be 15 years old and very impressionable. And I think Danny manipulated him for sure. And I don't know that Brent would have killed on his own. But I don't want to discount what he did either because he participated in some very horrendous crime. Yeah, I mean, I still think about all the victims and their family members and what they all had to go through. And some of them still have to go through, you know, remembering, thinking about everything. I just don't know if that's something that ever leaves you, ever. But that's it for our episode, episodes on Larry and Danny Raines.

We've got some voicemails, Gibbs. You want to check those out? Let's hear them. How's it going, fellas. I'm Seoul. I live in Missouri. I've listened to the most recent episode of TrueGarm all the time, Lucille Miller, and I just want to chime in and let me know that I felt this pain of the racetrack before.

I remember my dad giving me a couple swaths with a piece of Hot Wheel track, and man, that is no fun whatsoever, and I'm glad they don't even make those anymore. Team T-Kat, you guys are the bomb. Thanks, fellas. Keep your own time ticket. Bye. Yeah, that sure didn't feel good. But if you think back to how those were made, how they were constructed.

Yeah. They were solid, but had a little bit of flex. So you can imagine as they're coming forward, they get a little bend in them. And then they, you could get a snap probably. Yeah. I can imagine. I've never been hit with a hot wheel. I don't have to imagine.

I know you don't. And so interesting that someone calls in and, uh, can share your pain. Like lighten your ass up. Hi Mike and Gibby. This is Kylie calling y'all from San Antonio, Texas. I just wanted to say I love the show. It's the first podcast I ever listened to, and I've been bending it ever since.

But I wanted to give you guys a recommendation on a really interesting case here in Bear County. It's about Janine Jones, and she was a pediatric ICU nurse back in the late 70s, and they called her the Angel of Death. It's just a really interesting case, and I think it'd be great for the show. Also, speaking of the word interesting, Mike, don't be too hard on yourself about not pronouncing that key. Here down south, we kind of leave out the first E and make the second E and I to where it just becomes interesting. But I thought that was pretty funny, and I just wanted to tell you guys, I love the show.

So stay safe and keep your own time ticking. Saying its own in the house. Yeah, I have had a... strange history with that word. Sometimes there's a T in it. Sometimes there's more syllables than other times. I say it differently all the time. You do. And I try to help you out. I know you do because you're a grammar king. A grammar coach and a linguist and a vocabulary savant. All wrapped up in one. All wrapped up in one. But, you know, sometimes people just talk the way they talk. It's what happens. I know that's how you're cousins are why you bring my cousins but we appreciate the the voicemail very much and i had thought we

we did that case but i i just looked it up i can't find it so yeah sound familiar to me as well i thought we did it but i don't know i'd have to keep looking yeah well i'm definitely familiar with it and i thought we'd already covered it but if not we're we're gonna have to it's interesting or interesting interesting interesting or interesting or interesting or interesting or interesting or interesting or interesting or interesting or interesting resting as I have said sometimes without the tea altogether exactly all right buddy that is it we had no mailbag so that's it for another episode of true crime all the time so for mike and get me stay safe and keep your own time ticking