True Crime All The Time - Lawrence Dalton

Episode Date: July 4, 2022

Lawrence Dalton committed brutal crimes against women and girls in the 1970s. He had a wife, an open relationship with two other women, and four children between them. Some of these women were involved with Dalton's crimes either voluntarily or involuntarily depending on whom you believe.Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss serial killer Lawrence Dalton. Dalton used women for his own pleasure which was the only thing he really seemed to care about. When a woman wouldn't go along with his plans he resorted to murder to ensure that she would not go to the police. But, it was a 14-year-old girl who finally escaped and put the police onto Dalton, his wife, and his girlfriends. You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 290 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in True Crime, Mike Gibson. How are you? Hey, I'm doing good, man, about yourself. I'm doing really well. Good. Having a good week and, you know, ready to get into a really good episode on TCAP. Before we do that, let's go ahead and give our Patreon shoutouts.

We had Sandy Lutz. What's going on, Sandy? Ashley Garwood. Hey, Garwood. Ricky Mason. What's up, Ricky? McKinsey Young. Hey, McKinsey.

Dana Smith. What's up, Dana? Christine Bruges. There's the Bruges. Georgie Hackett jumped out of our highest level. Hey, Hackett. Priya Patel. Hey, thank you, Priya.

Joseph Mendoza. What's up, Mendoza? Bill Ratcliffe. Hey, Bill. Lily Cash Bouchel jumped out of our highest level. Oh, Cash Bouchel. Caitlin Taylor. Hey, Caitlin.

Gloria Short. We appreciate that, Gloria. Andrea Bonagovsky. Ooh, Bonagosovsky. Katerina Linnborg. Hey, Lindborg. Becky Scoville. What's it going on, Scoville?

Lori Pepper Dominique. We got a lot of fun, interesting names this week. We do. We had Sean Toulos. Hey, Toulos. Heather Tart Diaz. What's on? Tart Diaz.

Molly. Good old Molly. And last but not least, Stephanie Poplarz jumped out at our highest level. Poplars. So we appreciate all the new support. And then if we go back into the vault, this week we selected Doreen Woods. Well, thanks, Doreen. You're awesome. Yeah, we appreciate all the support we get. We had some PayPal donations from exquisite vintage jewels. Nice. Got to get those like acquisit. Equisite. Why would you try? Why would you try? That's my question to you. But a valiant effort. Yes. And a donation from Torin Rasmussen. Well, thank you, Rasmussen. So, you know, it's all quite exquisite. Yes, it is. In my mind. Yes. appreciate it all. And I'm vintage. You are vintage. That's, that's for sure. Gibbs right now on true

crime all the time unsolved. We have an episode out where we head to Australia to talk about the disappearance of 49 year old Melissa Caddick. So this is a fairly recent case as far as unsolved cases go for us. Yeah, it is. But it's a really good one. You need to listen to it. We're going to dive into what occurred before the disappearance. And then, of course, obviously, the disappearance. and some, I'd say it's shocking. I think you guys might find it shocking too. That comes down the road after her disappearance. And then we're diving into some theories.

Yeah. So make sure you check that out. All right, buddy. Are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime All the Time? I'm ready. We are talking about a lesser known serial killer by the name of Lawrence Dalton. Lesser known, but absolutely, a very nasty individual. Lawrence Dalton committed brutal crimes against women and girls in the 1970s.

He wasn't arrested until one of his victims escaped and reported him to the police. So I say nasty. He's definitely nasty. But to me, Gibbs, what I viewed in Lawrence Dalton is a man who didn't really care about anyone or anything other than using women to me. meet his needs, his sexual needs. Yeah. And that's the way I see this guy.

He used women. And when things went badly, he killed them. Used and disposed of them, like just like that. Yeah. Yeah. And obviously we'll get into all the details. The other thing I'll say is that this was a tough case to put together. You know, we run into this from time to time.

But doing the research, you really saw varying sources with, different information. I mean, different victims' names, different dates. It was very strange. Because, you know, as we'll see, Dalton was in a bunch of different states. Right. So obviously, a lot of different papers kind of covered his case, at least certain aspects of it. But they were all over the map as far as the details. Well, maybe the fact checkers, maybe the fact checkers back there didn't do their job. Well, people make mistakes. I mean, the good thing is there are some court documents and kind of go by those as probably being more accurate than maybe some of the reporting. Well, for sure. Lawrence Dalton was born on April 12th, 1945. The Waukegan New

Sun did provide some pretty good information about his early life in a 1979 article that they did. Dalton was born in Chicago. Two parents, Delilah and Nicholas. Dalton. He has one younger sister named Margaret. He often went by the names Larry or Bill, reportedly because he associated his name with his father. So when you read articles about, you know, his case, you'll see some of these names, names used interchangeably by the people who knew him. People knew him as Lawrence, Larry, Bill. All over the place. Now, according to his sister, he had a very violent temper growing up. At the age of 12, Dalton was placed in a children's home. He has claimed that he finished the fifth or sixth grade. So he had a fifth or sixth grade education.

But his mother said that he earned an eighth grade education. She said that he was definitely behind in school. And according to her, the school just wanted to get rid of him. Now, that would not be out of the realm of possibility. No. Schools sometimes want to get rid of kids. I know. And we'll let certain things slide so that, you know, these kids move on. Exactly. But to me, whether he finished the fifth grade, the sixth grade or the eighth grade, he didn't have much of an education. I think that's pretty safe to say. In 1960, he got into trouble for shoplifting and stealing school books. He spent time. He spent time in the St. Charles School for Boys, a state-run institution. In 1961, he dropped out of school and he got involved in some auto theft, but he later said he wasn't arrested or convicted.

Now, Dalton claims that he married for the first time in 1963. And this is kind of part of the reporting. It's a little contentious. How many times this guy was married? It's possible he may have been married as many as six times. Oh, man. That's a lot. But the reports, and the records are kind of all over the place. I think after 30, you probably ought to give up. Three? Yeah. Now, there's people out there that have been married four or five times.

Well, that's good. So I think I see where you're coming from. Yeah. You're just giving up after three. But I think there's a lot of people that are like, they're looking for love. They're looking for that partner. And they're not going to give up.

Right. Keep searching. His sister Margaret told the Waukegan, new son. We don't talk about it in the house. He's caused us too much trouble, and we don't want anything to do with him. He has no feelings towards us, none whatsoever. When it comes to something like this, I almost feel that I don't have a brother. You get to the point where you don't want to talk about it.

You think it's a nightmare and you'll wake up and it'll be gone. Now, you and I often talk about, you know, what victims go through, what victims, families go through. we don't always talk about what the family of a vicious killer goes through. I think you're seeing some insight into it here. His sister is basically saying, we don't talk about him. Now, obviously, this article is after everything has come out, right, about what he's done. I'm sure it's embarrassing for the family. Yeah, that might be an understatement.

When we really dive into what this guy did, the sick to. stomach maybe to think that your brother, your son, your close family member could do some of these things that we're getting ready to talk about. Margaret reported that their father was an alcoholic and Dalton claimed he was physically abused as a child. He said his father went to prison when he was young, but then returned when he was a teenager. And at the age of 14, he reportedly tried to choke his father. So I mentioned it, right? He didn't really like his name. He didn't want to be associated with his father. Right. I think you can tell. They had a rough relationship. His father, Nicholas, died in 1967. Margaret told the paper, there was always resentment and hatred between my

father and brother. Yeah, it really sounded like there probably was. As an adult, Dalton moved a lot. and we're going to talk about a number of different states that he lived in. He worked various odd jobs. He lived in Chicago, New York City, and a bunch of different towns in Wisconsin and Illinois, even Ohio, I think, for a period of time. In 1976, Dalton married a woman named Karen Rugg. Karen later testified that Dalton had been married at least three times. So again, this is where, you know, could be as many as six.

she sang three times before they got married. So that would be at least four there. They met in November, 1971, through a mutual friend. They started dating in 1972. Dalton was in an open relationship with his wife, Karen,

and what he called two girlfriends. So a party of three. Yeah. So it's not even a love triangle, really. It's a cube. Love square. A love square.

Dalton had four. children with three women, Karen, his wife, an acquaintance named Barbara Philipsky, and another woman named Kathy Pina. But it's one of the things that I found fascinating about the case of Lawrence Dalton. You know, these women, they stayed in his life and in the life of his wife. It really was a relationship between all of these people going on. According to court documents, the three women worked as sex workers, go-go dancers, and masseuses. Dalton monitored their earnings and he threatened and dominated them in sexual activity for both pleasure and pay.

So, you know, it sounds to me like he was in charge of the money they earned through sex work and other types of endeavors, but at home, he was in charge. He dominated them. and we'll get into some of the details as we go, but he was calling the shots. There's no doubt about it. The Dalton's met Kathy's sister, Blanchie Pena when they lived in racing Wisconsin in 1977. The Dalton's visited Blanchie, her mother and her sister, both of whom were named Beatrice,

and visited them fairly often. When the Dalton's moved to a new home on Sheridan Road in Kenosha County later that year, it was said Gibbs that Blanchee often hitchhiked over to their house. So she went there willingly, voluntarily to see them. On August 31st, 1977, Dalton was supposed to give Blanchie a right to the unemployment office. But Beatrice eventually contacted the police because Blanchee never came home. Dalton was questioned and said that Blanchie asked to be taken to SC, John

Johnson and Sons, Inc. Incorporated in Racine. So I definitely think the police considered him a suspect. But at the time, they didn't have enough evidence to charge him with anything related to the disappearance of Blanchie Penna. Yeah, but he's got to be a suspect because he was the last known person to be with her. Yeah, I think if the mom says, well, he was supposed to take her here or there, well, you're going to need to talk to him and you're going to be pretty suspicious.

A few days after she was reported missing, Blanchie's boyfriend told the police that he got a call from a woman who claimed to be Blanchie's sister. This woman told him that Blanchie was safe in Chicago. Now, police later believed that it was Lawrence's wife, Karen, Dalton, who made this call. but Karen told the police that neither she nor her husband knew anything about Blanchie's disappearance. On October 31st of that year, the racing police received a sympathy card about Blanchie. The card had a copy of a journal times picture of her. The sender from Milwaukee noted that Blanchie was dead. So that's kind of interesting that they noted that she was dead.

Well, I thought it was strange that someone would just even send a sympathy card to the police. Right. That's true too. About somebody who has disappeared. Okay, could you understand maybe the family getting sympathy cards from strangers? Yeah, you could probably understand that. People feel sorry when bad things like that happen. But to include a copy of a new.

newspaper article with a picture of her and then to come out and say that she's dead. Well, you're not sending a sympathy card. You're taunting the police at this point. You sure are. I mentioned that whoever sent it sent it from Milwaukee, but it's not like they put their name on it, right? Or anything like that. According to the Kenosha News Courier in December 177, the Dalton's, Barbara Philipsky,

and four children moved to Chicago. And it was while they were living in Chicago that a neighbor of the Dalton's, Debbie Suzanne Baker, went missing. Authorities came to believe that Lawrence Dalton killed Debbie, hid her body for more than a week, and then put her body in a trunk, and then dropped it into a river.

The Chicago Tribune reported that Debbie Baker also went by the name Shirley Taylor. she was found on May 24th, 1978, in a trunk in the Fox River. But we said she lived right next door to the Dalton's and then police discovered another tie-in and it was that she worked for this company, the Amos temporary help service under her false name of Shirley Taylor, but so did Lawrence Dalton. At the time she worked there, he worked there driving a bus for this. temporary help service. So we got a connection. I think we had multiple connections, right?

Next door neighbor, worked at the same place. A few months later, the group moved to Brooklyn, New York. And they met a 14-year-old girl and the girl's mother, they were their neighbors. The mother later said in an interview that the Dalton's often visited her and her daughter babysat whenever they were away from home. So there's a couple things, right? They're moving around a lot. They are. And it wasn't known at the time, but looking back,

you know, they're moving after someone has been murdered. A lot of people would see that as some form of guilt. Yeah, but I think if you're the police, you don't know it, right? I mean, we know it. So we're saying it that way because we have all the pieces of the puzzle.

and can put them in any order that we want. Now, the police would know it later on and be able to put together that, that same puzzle. Now, this 14 year old girl, she plays an important part in the story. We won't say her name, but she later told the police that she was having trouble at home. And she accepted an invitation from the Dalton's to be their living babysitter when they moved to Ohio. So they moved to Ohio.

this 14-year-old girl moved with them. They didn't stay in Ohio long, I don't think. They eventually moved to Waukegan, Illinois, and she moved with them there as well. In November 1978, the Dalton's wanted to move to Milwaukee. And so they asked this girl's mother if she could go with them to be their babysitter.

The girl left home with Karen Dalton and three of the children on November 25th, 1978. And Gibbs, this girl's mother didn't hear from her again until April of 1979. It's almost six months. Yeah. Five, six months. You know, it doesn't sound like maybe a long time, but it's the circumstance that goes with the time. If your child is missing, five or six months is an eternity.

Oh, absolutely. But in a different context, it's a college basketball season. Right? And it's over very, very quickly. You know, it's interesting when you look at periods of time and different contexts because they mean different things. Yeah, they obviously do. So eventually the Dalton's called the mother and said that her daughter didn't want to come home to Brooklyn. Now, Gibbs, what they told the girl was that her mom didn't want her to come back. And she was putting all of her kids in foster care. So you can see what they're doing. Right. They're playing one off of the other, telling each person something different, but making each person, the mom and the daughter, believe that the other doesn't want them or doesn't want to be with them. Sure. If you can get them to believe that, then you're not expecting them to come find you. Yeah. And or this 14 year old maybe is more apt to want to stay with you.

if she truly believes that her mother doesn't want her. Well, yeah, because she's going to look for some type of security. But it's very devious. After a few weeks, the mom reported her daughter missing. But the police were said to have been very reluctant to pursue the matter because, after all, she really had given the Dalton's permission to take her daughter or for her to go with them. So it's something that you and I talk about in a lot of cases. all right, how are the police looking at this or that from, you know, their point of view?

I think the minute they find out that this whole thing was, you know, consensual for a lack of a better word, as far as this 14 year old going with this family, well, then where's the crime in their, in their eyes? I'm trying to, you know, put myself in their position. That's obviously what they must have been thinking. You know, folks, sometimes you just need a little bit of excitement in your life. Well, what if you had a go-to game that could instantly bring a hefty dose of fun to your day whenever you needed it? Life's too short for a day without fun. So get a thrill whenever you need it with slotomania.

The world's number one free slots game. You'll have endless excitement at your fingertips. They have 170 free to play, slot games, huge jackpots, and interactive community, and a million free coins. It's the perfect escape from your daily. routine. I love this game. I love the rush that you feel when you win a big jackpot. I just use it for a little me time to relax from the grind of the writing and research of the podcast. Slotomania makes everyday funtastic with engaging graphics and realistic sound effects. They have hundreds of original Vegas style and video slot machine. It's like a Vegas vacation, but without the luggage. You can

become a VIP member to get your own personal account manager. When your day is feeling stale, Just to ask, what will today spend? If you're 21 or older, you can join millions of players around the world. Download Slottomania, the number one free slots game on the App Store or Google Play Store, and get one million free coins. That's Slotomania on the App Store or Google Play Store for one million free coins. On December 25th, 1978, the girl's mother was called and informed that her daughter was missing. The girl was told that her mom had the Dalton's phone number,

but refuse to call them. What a thing they have to do on Christmas Day? Get a call that your daughter is missing. But then, you know, the 14 year old is being told something completely different. Hey, your mom doesn't want you. She has our number. If she wanted to call and talk to you, she would, but she doesn't. Yeah.

How does that make you feel? Now, it's not true. They're lying to her. Right. They're using it to their advantage. But I also think it's interesting that the mother is called at this point. and informed that the daughter was missing. And I think we'll find out, right?

Because really after that call, after Christmas, the Dalton's began refusing to let this girl leave the house. She was only allowed to go to the store, but she was always accompanied by someone. At a certain point, she tried to use a pay phone, but she was forced into a car before she could make a call. when she did try to escape, she was beaten.

So obviously this went from, hey, come live with us, help watch the kids, we'll take care of you. Your mom doesn't want you to, we've got you, and you're not leaving. And they keep you in check. We're going to beat you now and then. Yeah. And worse, as we're going to find out. The group moved to Waikigan, Illinois. The Dalton's and Barbara took the girls clothes.

they shaved her hair and they forced her to live in a bedroom closet. They sexually abused her. And it was said that they stabbed her with a pitch for it. That's something that you see in bad movies. Right. Old horror movies or, you know, old Frankenstein movies were coming after you with a pitchfork. Tabling her with a pitchfork.

So in total, she was held inside this house for four months as a prison. of the Dalton's. And again, I mentioned it, this Barbara Phillipskes involved as well on April 16th, 1979. This girl escaped by jumping out of a bedroom window. She walked to a service station and called her mother. And so this is amazing on its own, right? She must have been scared to death. She's being abused sexually, physically for four months, at least held captive. And At a certain point, she makes the decision that I'm going to do whatever I have to do to get away. And she does.

Jumps out of a bedroom window. The part that I found very interesting was that after making this phone call to her mother and obviously the police get involved, they didn't believe her story. Because if you think about it, okay, it's a pretty outlandish story. It is. It's going to be hard to swallow for many. I was babysitting for these people. And then all of a sudden, they held me captive.

They sexually abused me. They physically abused me. But eventually, police went to the house where she had been held. And they saw the evidence of a person being held captive in a closet for what obviously was a very extended period of time. I'm freak out a lot of people to be held in a closet, you know? Well, you know I'm claustrophobic. I've talked about it many things.

times, not only just about small confined spaces, but also crowds and I'm sure there's another name for that. I don't even like to be in the closet with the door shut picking out my clothes. So to be forced to live in a closet. And no doubt Gibbs, that's the lesser of the evils we're talking about. The physical and sexual abuses would have been much, much worse. But to your point, just being forced to live in a closet for four months. would be horrible. And then you have the abuse, but you also have the knowledge that these people will not let you go. So how long is this going to last? It's already been four months. Well, it's got to be the one thing that you're constantly thinking about, right? And I think on top of that,

it would be if these people are willing to do all this to hold me captive and do these bad things to me, they're never going to let me go because they know the minute I'm out of here, I'm going straight to the police. So what are they ultimately going to do to me? That has to run through your mind day in, day out. So this girl escaped. Karen and Barbara found out that she was gone. So they reported her missing on April 18th.

You got to do something. Sure you do. Right. 25 year old Karen Dalton and 26 year old Barbara Phillipsky were arrested in charge with taking indecent liberties with a child. Karen was also charged with battery and unlawful restraint, and Barbara was charged with deviant sexual assault. So I mentioned it. They're kind of all in this together. Sure they are. And it's going to come out that way. And no doubt Gibbs this young girl was able to give not only her mother,

but the police, all the details of what each person had had done to her over this extended period of time. So Barbara and Karen were arrested. Dalton found out. He wasn't there. He immediately called his mother. And that same day, Dalton, his kids and his mom, they got on a bus and they left town for Cleveland, Ohio. Now, the good news is this girl was safe. But I read that they actually kept her in foster care.

They didn't release her to her mother. They kept her in foster care. because they were so scared of what this guy Lawrence Dalton was going to do. They were worried that he would find her and hurt her because he was on the run. And they must have known that he knew where her mother lived. Well, there were neighbors at one point, so he had to know exactly where she lived. Wisconsin and Illinois authorities launched a search for Dalton on April 20, with 1979. He was charged with rape, deviant sexual assault, and taking in decent liberties with a

child. So all of this stems from, you know, the escape of the 14 year old girl and what she said happened to her. But after Karen and Barbara got arrested, they started talking. And they implicated Lawrence Dalton in the murder of Blanche Pina. Doesn't sound like they're going to go down by themselves. They're going to take him down with him. Well, and they know everything because they were involved in a lot of things. On April 20th, 1979, the police dug up a body in the front yard of a house on Sheridan Road in Wisconsin. And this was the house that Dalton had lived in from March, 1977 to February, 1978.

So to Karen and Barbara, too. Yeah, I think it sounded like in the research it was off and on. Maybe Karen was there, you know, the whole time Barbara was there off and on maybe. But obviously, this dig came from information provided by Karen and Barbara. Barbara told the police that Dalton was soundproofing the trailer attached to what she called a converted fruit stand that they, apparently lived in. I've been to a lot of fruit stands. Most of them are not very big. No. And I'm racking my brain trying to figure out how you convert most of the fruit stands that I've been familiar with into a livable abode. Well, you know, I did see an HGTV special about how to convert your fruit stand into a fun little getaway home. Yeah. Well, you joke. It would not surprise me

in the least if HDTV had that. Right. Because they're flipping and flopping and they convert a shipping container into a multi-million dollar mansion somehow. It would be called Extreme Fruit Dance. Yeah. Yeah. If they don't have it, somebody else started after hearing this podcast.

Absolutely. Because they stole my other idea. They did. Allegedly. Allegedly. Yeah. So they dug up this body. And the body was identified as 25-year-old Blanchie Penn.

who was missing from Racine, Wisconsin, Blanchie was found with a stocking, stuffed in her mouth, and duct tape wrapped around her mouth and face. Her body was too decomposed to determine her exact cause of death. But her hyoid bone in her neck was fractured, which did indicate strangulation. So I mentioned it, you know, early on Gibbs. There's a lot of court documents associated with this case. a lot of the appeal documents really kind of lay out the information at least as it was relayed by Dalton, Karen and Barbara. So on the day Blanchie was murdered. Karen was living somewhere

in Kenosha and Barbara was living somewhere else in the city. I said they were off and on, right? Living together, living apart. Kathy Penna's location, so that was, uh, Blanchie's sister was unknown at the time. But what was known was that Dalton had custody of his children. You know, every time we talk about Kenosha, I always think about John Candy in that Home Alone movie when she takes the... Because that's where he's going with his polka band. They're like the Kenosha poker player.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. How about that? Yeah. I miss John Candy. I know. And I know you enjoy the polka. I do enjoy a good polka. So Karen and Dalton.

showed up to the Pena Home in separate vehicles. Karen told Dalton to take Blanchie to the unemployment compensation office in Racine. Karen was going to take Kathy and another Pina daughter to a different location. Now, Dalton admitted in some of these court documents that he had thoughts about having sex with Blanchie. He had touched her breast and made comments about sex before. Oh, he even told Barbara about these thoughts. Yeah.

And I think, you know, that's what makes this case so strange. You know, a lot of times when we talk about serial killers and sexual predators, that type of stuff, they keep from spouses, mates. I mean, they just don't share that information. Right. That doesn't seem to be the case here. And it's one of the reasons why I found this one so interesting. Barbara, Karen, they knew a lot.

and willingly or unwillingly will dive into that, they participated in some of these acts. Now, initially, Dalton lied to investigators and said that he did take Blanchie to the unemployment office. He later testified, though, that he took her to one of his homes while he waited for an exterminator. They spoke to the landlord, then went to the house that he shared with Barbara. So I don't know if the guy shared a house with Karen.

He shared another house with Barbara. It's a very strange situation that that was going on. There was a trailer on the property that you could get into from the house. And don't even soundproof that trailer. Right. We said, right. Barbara had told somebody that some authority. But he tested the soundproofing by having Barbara enter the trailer and scream.

So obviously he would have been standing on the outside. But Barbara later said, he told her that he was going to keep a girl locked up in the trailer bathroom. So she was aware of it. She knew why he wanted to soundproof and she went along with it. Yeah, I think she knew. Now, let's say you didn't know. Do you think you would question somebody as to why they wanted to soundproof a location? I think most would when it came to something like that.

Now, if you're going to start a podcast, it's different. Okay. Maybe that's a good reason to want to soundproof something. I think definitely if you're going to do a podcast in a trailer, you probably need some soundproof. Sure. Now, we know Lawrence Dalton wasn't doing any podcasting in the late 1970s. So we're back to Dalton and Blanchie. They're at, you know, his home. He told Blanchie to wait outside. He went inside the house and asked Barbara, if she wanted to, quote, have a party. Those were his words, is what he later said with Blanchie. Barbara said no. But what came out in a lot of these documents gives is that Dalton often forced Blanchie to engage in sexual acts with Barbara while he watched. And then afterwards, he would normally have sex with one of them. Well, he wasn't going to let that deter him.

No, the fact that Barbara didn't want to protect. participate. He said he was going to have a party with Blanchie anyway. And it was said that Barbara stayed in the living room with the kids. I'm just thinking, I've been in some trailers back in the day. Not really the environment to have the kids in the living room while you're in the back bedroom, even with some soundproofing. Just like the right environment. I don't think. Well, most trailers aren't that big. Right. But, you know, let's say it was not a trailer. Let's say, was a three bedroom house. You're still as a woman going to sit in the living room with the kids knowing what this man

is about to do to this 25 year old woman. Yeah. There's something wrong there, very wrong. I mean, obviously what he's doing is wrong. But what Barbara is doing in this situation is very wrong as well. Now, we'll get into the argument of whether she felt as though she felt as though she was. She had a choice or she was under, you know, basically his thumb and had to do what he wanted her to do.

So Dalton brought Blanchie inside the house through a side door that went into a bedroom. He handcuffed her, stuffed a sock in her mouth. And then he wrapped duct tape over her head and mouth. He testified that the duct tape was part of a joke. He was playing on the kids. Oh, just a little joke for the kids. A duct tape joke. Yeah.

Now, what he said was that Blanchey agreed to have duct tape wrapped loosely around her head. I think she had no choice. Well, anybody that's ever played around with duct tape knows that it's extremely adhesive. Most people don't want duct tape wrapped around any part of your body and especially parts with hair on it. As you found out. As I found out the hard way. Yes. Leave it at that.

And a scene reminiscent from the four. 40 year old virgin. Yeah. It was a bad deal. I made a very bad mistake. But I mean, to your point, Gibbs, it's one thing for a killer to say, oh, it was a joke. She was in on it. She agreed to it.

Right. But then when you look at would most people do that? And I think the definitive answer is no. Common sense tells you that most women wouldn't allow you to wrap their head in. duct tape. No. And I think to bolster that, a pathologist later testified that the duct tape was wrapped very, very tightly around her head. So again, I think that's a killer saying whatever they have to say to minimize their role and maybe, you know, cast some doubt on whether this was forced or if somebody went along with part of it. You know my thought. I normally think it's all

BS, most of the stuff that comes out of the mouths of these killers. Sure. They'll say whatever, but it's always strange because whatever they say normally tends to make them look better. You ever notice that? Of course. Doesn't, you know, they don't come out and say the stuff normally that makes them look worse than what they really are. Right. Because how could they be worse than what they really are, but it's always aimed at trying to minimize what they did. Wasn't as bad as this guy's making it out. Sure. It was a game.

It started out as a game. They agreed to participate. In court, Dalton said that he had sexual intercourse with Blanche. Now, people listening to this are probably cringing. I'm using his words. You know, we know this was not what we would call sexual. intercourse. I think of that as between two consenting adults. This is not what this was. He sexually assaulted, violated this woman, but he can't say that right in court. He has to say we had sexual intercourse.

He then said he went into the living room and told Barbara that he had sex with Blanchie and also said he couldn't let her go because she would report him. Now, how does that make any sense? If you just had what you're trying to deem as consensual sex. Why would it be a problem? Why is she going to report you? Why can you not let her go? And that's to me what always trips these people up. Yeah, they contradict themselves.

They always contradict themselves. They don't make any sense. So Barbara testified that she went into the bedroom and saw Blanchie handcuffed and gagged. She could see from her eye movement that this woman was still alive. but then she left and she went back into the living room while Dalton went back into the bedroom. So she did nothing to stop it. Nope. She just went in to see what was going on and then she turned around and walked out.

Then she said she heard loud thumping noises against the wall. And that's when she decided to take the kids outside, not during the assault, not during what she must have known was happening inside that room. Dalton later came outside and told her that he thought Blanchie was dead and that he thought he killed her. Well, when you think she might be dead and that you might have killed her, guess what? You did. Well, he knew he did.

Sure. Because the next thing he did was wrap her body in a sheet and put her in the trunk of his car. Now, Barbara left to go to work as a dancer. And after she left, Dalton buried Blanchie in the yard while she was gone. But again, all of this is so strange because Barbara is not even his wife. His wife is Karen and she's not even there. No. She's somewhere else.

And it is part of my fascination with this case, the reason why I wanted to do it, this dynamic. So Gibbs, we're going back in time, right, to tell what happened to Blanchie as it came out in court documents. But as it relates to the story, we have to move back forward. to where they are searching for Lawrence Dalton. And 34-year-old Lawrence was arrested on April 22nd, 1979 at a hospital in Cleveland, Ohio. So they tracked him to Cleveland. The police learned that he had checked into a hotel. When they got to the hotel, the clerk said that Dalton had gone to the hospital.

He was admitted for stomach pains. And apparently he had four young children with him. Dalton was last seen April 20th with the children and his mother. But when he was arrested, his mother wasn't there. So I can only surmise that Karen and Barbara got arrested. He thought, nope, I got to get out. I grab my kids. I grab my mom.

We're headed to Cleveland. But police tracked him down. He was charged with the murder of Blanchee Pena on the day of his arrest. He waived extradition. to Waukegan, Illinois, in his arrest interview, he made a lot of incriminating statements. And it was said that he even compared himself to John Wayne Gacy. Right. So in some instances, you're going to deflect.

You're going to make yourself look better than what you really are. But then you're going to compare yourself to John Wayne Gacy. Is he looking for notoriety? I don't know. I mean, it's a weird comparison at any level. Well, and it's really weird when you think about Gacy's crimes. Right. Compared to this guy's crimes.

I mean, they were sexual. He did murder, but they don't really match up with Gacy's crimes at all. When Dalton was arrested, he told the police that Blanchie reacted violently. So he grabbed her by the neck and choked her to death. How else was she react? Right. calmly? He was sexually assaulted.

her raping her, had her all tied up and duct tape. I think any person would react violently. But to me, Gives, it's almost as if he expected every woman just to go along with his wishes. Yeah. That's what he expected.

And when it didn't happen that way, then he reacted very violently. I think you also thought he looked like a Casanova. And he does not or did not. He did not. And obviously doesn't today. He's in his 70s, but he did not back then. He had some crazy 70s hair, like combed over and, um, just a weird looking guy. Yeah. George Clooney, this guy was not. He also told one detective that surely died when he made advances to her and she hit her head on a pipe. Well, how did she hit her head on the pipe? He didn't say, I mean, you know, you can, you know, you can. can make the inference that she was trying to get away from him, but does that really hold water? Or again, is he just trying to minimize his role? But he did say he wrapped up her body and threw it in a lake. And we mentioned it, right? Debbie Baker went by Shirley. So that's,

that's ultimately who he's talking about. And we talked about Debbie Suzanne Baker earlier. I read Gibbs that Cook County was planning on filing charges against Dalton for her murder. Workman found Debbie in the trunk in the Fox River on May 24th, 1978. According to the corner, it looked like she had been dead for somewhere about eight to ten weeks. But they found a newspaper insert from March 8th that was inside the trunk. The trunk was not locked and she was stuffed in a barracks back. According to the Chicago Tribune, coroner Mickey Babcock said that she probably was beaten to death. Authorities believe that Dalton hid her body in a false wall at a house on Argyle Street and then later put her in a trunk and dumped it in the river.

Her body was unidentified for almost a year. It wasn't until April 24th, 1979, that the body was tentatively identified as Debbie Baker. So two murders so far that we've talked about in connection with Lawrence Dalton. There was the imprisonment and sexual assault of the 14-year-old girl from Brooklyn. Right. But Dalton was also suspected of the murder of 12-year-old Lisa Slusser and Waukegan in 1977. Lisa was kidnapped on August 24th, 1977, in a rural area near Lake Michigan. She was less than a mile from her house. She had ridden her brother's bite to collect acorns for a school art project.

Neighbors saw Lisa in this wooded area around 3.30 p.m. They also saw a 1955 black Chevy station wagon that people said was jacked up in a car turnaround in the woods. I took that to mean not jacked up as in beat up, but up on a jack. as if somebody was changing a tire. Lisa's bike was found in a ditch near the intersection of gangster and Sheridan Roads. Mildred Schlosser reported Lisa missing when she hadn't come home for a couple of hours. Police officers, firefighters, and volunteers searched for her on August 25th. Authorities found Lisa's body the next day on the 26th near Russell, Illinois, five miles.

from Lawrence Dalton's house and about 11 miles from her home. And her body was found after three teenagers submitted a tip to police. She was found naked. She had been stabbed to death on the bank of the Displains River. Her skull was fractured and she had been sexually assaulted. Investigators believe she was taken to this spot and then killed. Her clothes were found in a completely different location. and early on these three teens who had submitted the tip were held for questioning but eventually

were not considered suspect. So Dalton's murder trial started on October 24th, 1979. He pled insanity at first, but then withdrew that plea before the trial started. The defense argued that Dalton had psychiatric problems and that he shouldn't be charged with first degree murder, he should be charged with second degree murder. Karen Dalton testified that on August 31st, 1977, Dalton told her and Blanchie's mother that he didn't know what happened to Blanchie. Karen was going to take the Beatrice's to the welfare office and Dalton was supposed to take Blanchie. She said she saw him at about 5 p.m. that afternoon. Dalton said that Blanchie left home because of a

fight and he left her at 16th Street. She was upset, but he didn't know where she was. Karen claimed she didn't find out about the murder until they were about to return to Wisconsin from New York. She wanted to leave and stay with the Pinnas, but Dalton said she couldn't because he had killed Blanchie. Karen said she talked Dalton into going to a psychiatrist in New York so that he could qualify for welfare payments. Barbara also testified. She said that Dalton wanted to bring Blanche in for what she called a party. Barbara and Karen claimed that Blanchie never participated in parties and never had sex with

them or Dalton. Barbara said that she told Dalton to take Blanchie home. But that goes against, right? The testimony that we've already talked about. Dalton said that Blanchie had participated. in some of what he called these parties with everyone before. The journal Times reported that Barbara testified, Larry told me to go in and talk to her. She looked at me.

I could see her there like she knew who I was. I couldn't stay in the room. She was all curled up. When Barbara came back from work on September 1st at 3 a.m., she saw Dalton closing the trunk of his car. He said that a man saw him digging a hole out front. and asked him if he was digging a grave. Dalton told the man he was checking water pipes. I'm telling you Gibbs, if I go out at 3 o'clock in the morning,

let's say to put my trash out and I see my next door neighbor digging a hole in his front yard, I'm going to have some questions. Yeah, I would too. Now, it's your yard, do what you want unless you're burying a body. That becomes an issue that the whole neighborhood's going to have with you. Yeah, well, if I see that at that time of the night, I'm calling for a little drive-by. Sure.

But both women testified that Dalton beat them often and that he also threatened the children to prevent them from leaving him. Barbara claimed that Dalton was physically abusive to her and the kids. He once tried to run over one of the children with his car. Well, that's abusive. She also said that he once choked her because he said she wasn't making enough money. Well, he was pimping them out. Yeah, he essentially was, these women in his life.

She said she didn't turn him in for the murder of Blanchie because he said he would turn her in as an accomplice. Yeah, I'm sure he held that over her head. Yeah, I mean, this is where we always go to when we get to the trial phase. People are going to say different things. And really, it's up to the jury and us as we tell and those listening to the story later on. who do you believe? Do you believe Lawrence Dalton when he says it was all fun in games with the duct tape and it was for the benefit of the kids? Or do you believe Barbara when she says he threatened to turn her in as an accomplice to the murder? Now, I'm not saying she did everything perfectly correct. Right. Obviously. But I think her story is much more believable.

Doesn't make it right. It's just. just more believable in my eyes. Yeah, true. Barbara testified that when they found out the 14-year-old girl had escaped, Dalton gave her $200 to bail Karen out in case she got arrested when she reported the girl missing. Barbara said that Dalton was worried and told her that he would have to lock the girl up or kill her once they found her.

So, you know, it was calculated, right? Barbara knew about it. Karen knew about it. They were there. They knew this 14-year-old girl was being held against her will. Yeah, they had to accept some form of guilt. Sure. Responsibility.

They knew what Lawrence Dalton was doing to this girl to the point where once she escaped, they came up with a plan to report her missing, and they had a very good idea that they would probably get arrested. Now, the Journal Times reported that Barbara testified saying about the girl. You don't know what the girl did to our kids. She slapped them and she had my little boy convinced she was a witch. She stole money and told lies. She was ripping up Karen's clothes. Again, is that true? Or are you just trying to say a bunch of disparaging remarks because you're in trouble? Right. You're in hot water. But even if it was true, does it give you the

right to do what they did? That's what I was thinking, right? Okay. should you slap a kid absolutely not she somehow convinced the boy she was a witch and she ripped up some clothes does not equate to being kidnapped forced to sleep in a closet and being sexually assaulted by this monster for months and months and months so i guess during this this trial in the murder of uh blanchey penna some evidence about some of the other murders that he was suspected in was accidentally introduced. So his attorneys jumped on that. They demanded a mistrial. And basically, I think what it was was the prosecutor had a police officer read some statements from Dalton's interview where he said, you know, that he would sign confessions. And he said, I just want to get this

over with. I killed them people. I need help. So they wanted to mistrial. The prosecution argued that it was an accident and the judge let the trial continue. The 14 year old girl and her mother testified on October 26th. And I won't go into the testimony because basically we've talked about everything that happened to this girl. What I will say Gibbs is that, I mean, what strength for a 14 year old girl to testify against her monster? Of course.

Yeah. And probably extremely powerful. to a jury. I think so. Had to have been. On October 31st, 1979, Lawrence Dalton was convicted of first degree murder, kidnapping by deceit and first degree assault in Kenosha County, Wisconsin.

The jury only deliberated for about two hours before they found him guilty. So I think they were pretty convinced. Yeah, I don't think they were going to linger too much on that. On November 1st, he was sentenced to life in prison for murder. and then 15 years for kidnapping. He had to go for a mental health evaluation before being sentenced for sexual assault.

The state committed him to Central State Hospital in Wisconsin because they determined that he did have mental and physical aberrations as to sexual matters and was in need of some type of specialized treatment. When he got to this hospital, Dalton refused to eat. He tried to end his life. they had to force feed him. Well, he was probably devastated by the sentence that he got in Wisconsin, and then he has to answer for what he did in Illinois.

On August 5th, 1980, a judge terminated the parental rights of Karen and Barbara. I don't think that's a shocker. No. A judge determining that, you know, these two women were unfit mothers. You've got the abuse that occurred to the 14-year-old girl. They knew about it. Right. They were there.

And then you had some of the stuff that came out at trial about the dangers that, you know, these children lived with because of Dalton's threats against them. It even came out that he once allegedly played a game of Russian roulette. Yeah. With one of the children. They should never been around them. No, but it always comes down to that question. Did they stay voluntarily?

Or were they too scared to leave? because they were afraid what would happen to them or the kids. And I can't answer that question. Only they can truly answer that question. Now, the one thing that did happen, you know, the charges that they had, these two women, they were dropped because they agreed to testify against Dalton at trial. You know, I'm not happy about that, but I get it. You need them.

You do to put this monster away. And he is the big. bigger monster. He's the bigger fish. You'd like to see everybody get what they deserve, but sometimes it just doesn't work that way. The last thing you want to see is this guy go free. Exactly. Can't have that happening. So you mentioned he was facing charges in Illinois. He got convicted of charges there as well. I won't go into, you know, all the, the particulars, because we're running long. But his first appeal was argued in August 19. 1980 and decided on in September of that year, the court stated in their ruling that

Lawrence Dalton lured Blanche Penna to Dalton's residence where he handcuffed and gagged her, had forcible sexual intercourse with her, and then killed her. Dalton was convicted of first degree murder, kidnapping by deceit and first degree sexual assault. He appeals, we affirm. Okay, short and sweet. Yeah. He was convicted of this. He did this.

There's no reason to, you know, overturn it in any way. Now, he did appeal the first degree murder conviction arguing that he didn't intend to kill Blanchie. He also argued that the exclusion of psychiatric testimony at trial led to his wrongful conviction. And there were some psychiatrists for the defense that testified that he had a sociopathic personality, but he didn't intend to kill Blanchie. So right, obviously that's what the defense was trying to do. He didn't have the intent. So how can it be first degree murder?

But some of these psychiatrists, their testimony wasn't allowed. The trial court found the testimony of the psychiatrist I just talked about, not competent. So their testimony was stricken. And then the defense actually removed one of their own psychiatrists because he stated that Dalton had the capacity to form intent. to kill. Well, not somebody you want on your defense. No, but I think he's telling the truth. He is. That's the problem. You know, when you get a professional, right? They're supposed to tell the truth. Now, you want them to tell the truth that plays into your narrative. And this guy didn't. So we got a Yankee. Because you probably had somebody like me that came across and said,

but does he have the capacity to form intent to kill? And the guy's like, yes. And you're incredible cross-examination moment. A Perry Mason moment? Sure. Yes. Although Perry Mason was a defense attorney. I'll let that slide. But it's still a moment.

It's still a moment. So the other thing that he argued Gibbs was that Karen shouldn't not have been allowed to testify about his confession to killing Blanchie and burying her body in the front yard because it was privileged communication, right? Husband to wife. But the court responded by saying, yeah, well, you also admitted to murdering this woman in front of three police officers and admitted it to a fellow inmate. They also said he never denied it on the witness stand at trial.

So he had opportunity. Yeah. He also tried to appeal the conviction for first degree sexual assault, even though he admitted that he raped this woman. So again, this is to me trying everything. of course you're going to throw it all up on the wall help that something sticks. But it doesn't make sense, right? It flies in the face of the things that you've already said. Right. If you're going to throw something up there, make it worthwhile. Dalton tried to end his life a couple of more times

leading up to his trial for his Illinois crimes. He pleaded guilty on November 20th, 1981 and was sentenced to 100 years for the murder of Debbie Suzanne Baker. It broke out Gibbs, 70 for the murder, and 30 for the rape. Then on December 11th of that year, he pleaded guilty to rape, deviant sexual assault, and indecent liberties with a child. And he got 30 more years in Illinois. So in Illinois, he has 130 years in Wisconsin. He's got life plus 15. But the question is, what does he have in Illinois? That's the real question. But he tried to fight his convictions in Illinois. He said he didn't knowingly and voluntarily waive his rights when he pleaded guilty. He was on medication and he couldn't understand the plea deal as outlined by his attorney.

He was never informed that he may receive this long extended sentence. He argued ineffective assistance of counsel. In 1995, Dalton submitted his own affidavit. It read, I was told at court if I pled guilty, I would get 40 years for murder, 30 years for rape, so it would be a total of 70 years. But the sentence was to run together, which meant only 40 years. And also to run together with the Wisconsin sentence. The judge didn't tell me that I was going to get an extended term or even asked me anything or asked me if I had anything to say. So they rejected that appeal. He filed a bunch of other appeals, they were rejected. So Gibbs, as we wrap up this episode, Lawrence Dalton is currently 77 years old. He's still alive. Yeah. He's still incarcerated in Wisconsin. Now, I don't believe he'll ever

be paroled. I don't think so either. I mean, if a board goes back and looks at what he did, I just don't see them hitting the approval stamp on this guy. But even if they did, he would still have to be transferred to Illinois to finish his sentences there where they have a not so cozy cell room waiting for him and a very very long sentence and then at some point he'd have to go to illinois and who knows how long he'd have to do over there i see what you did there nice well you're the one that thinks there's two different states Illinois and Illinois's i'm just playing up that fact do i got to get my cousins involved you do although I actually don't want that because I could be in trouble. Yeah. You know, the one thing, and I pointed it out in the beginning, but this is a lesser known

case. It received quite a bit of news coverage, but it was very inconsistent news coverage. The information was all over the place with names and dates. What I will say is that, you know, this guy's every bit as nasty as some of, you know, other more known killers that we've profiled. He was convicted of multiple murders and for what he did to that poor, you know, 14 year old girl. What I couldn't find was whether or not he was convicted of the murder of Lisa Slosser. I even read they planned on charging him. I just didn't see where that happened, where he, you know, went to trial or was convicted. Maybe they figured they didn't have enough evidence or maybe they figured out that he had so much time between his Wisconsin sentence

and his Illinois sentence that he was never getting out. Yeah. We've talked about that, right? It's a calculated move. Do you want to spend the money on another trial when this guy's going to die in prison regardless, no matter what you do? Yeah. And I think you have to ask, how many other victims did this guy have to? have. Yeah, right? It's a question that we ask in a lot of cases. He was a, or I should say is. I'm sure he still is a selfish evil guy. He definitely used women for his own pleasure against their will. And he didn't seem to have an aversion to murder. I think Gibbs, you'd have to at least think there's a possibility, a good possibility that his victim count could be much higher than what.

is known. Yeah. And he lived in a lot of different places. He did. And there was a period of time before he married Karen. Because it's almost like once he married Karen and got involved with Barbara and Blanchie's mother, you know, he had four kids. It seemed like between some of these women. But there was a period of time before that. You can't tell me this guy wasn't a nasty individual before that period of time. Now, did he do something? And it just never came out. I always think the odds are just very good that he did. Yeah. And there's there's unsolved cases somewhere where he probably lived that may never be solved, but he was the perpetrator. Yeah, I believe he had a hand of a few others. But that's it for our episode on Lawrence Dalton. I did find the case fascinating. He had just a lot of strange things to it. You know, this

love cube as we called it. Right. You know, four people, four children. Some are moving, you know, with this guy from state to state to state. Women are ending up dead. Yeah. But these women who live with him on and off seemed to have been privy to quite a bit of information. It didn't do anything about it. And didn't do anything about it. And also, you know, didn't leave him again that question always comes up where they scared for their lives the lives of their children that's very possible sure it is but it's also possible that they were in on some of this that they reveled in it yeah i'm not making that accusation i'm saying it's possible but only those individuals know yeah and they're never going to come out and say that no why would you right again

you only say the things that make you look better right in court you don't say the things that make you look really, really bad. Now, some people do. I don't understand why they do, but... Most don't, though. Most don't. But that's it for our episode on Lawrence Dalton. We've got some voicemails.

You want to check those out? Yeah, let's hear them. Hey, what's going on, Mike and Gibby? This is Nick from Alabama. I'll just call them in and say, I love the show. I love what you guys do. And I was just going to see if y'all had ever thought about covering the case on

Mario Centobia. It's pretty fascinating about a guy down here in Alabama. that escaped out of prison twice and ended up getting a police officer. And it's kind of fascinating. I just didn't know if y'all had ever heard of him or ever might think of getting a chance of covering it. But anyway, keep up the good work, doing what you doing. All right. Bye.

Gibbs, I have to say I've never heard of that case. No. I can guarantee it's not on our list, but it will be. We'll check it out. And we'll look at it for a possible future episode. Interested in hearing it. And either Roll Tide or War Eagle. I don't know.

Oh, man. Whichever way you go. Here you go. Mike and Gibby. This is Reedy from Illinois. I have been listening to you guys for years, and I am finally calling for the first time, because if I have the correct understanding, Mike, you and I share a birthday. And it is coming up in a couple days.

So happy birthday to us. And as a gift, I got myself a Patreon on membership finally. I am super excited to listen to all the new episodes. I have access to. You guys are the best. You helped me get through 2020. When my kids were home all the time, I would take off on long walks and binge the podcast and come back in a much better mood.

And you have also influenced my family vacations because after listening to the episode on Peter Curtin, the next time my family went up to Wisconsin Dells, we went over to the Ripley's auditorium to see his head. my kids thought I was crazy because I was super excited to see the head, but we all had a great time. And that was all thanks to you guys. And now I'm hoping that sometime soon I can get out to CrimeCon and actually meet you guys, have a drink, hang out. I love you. Keep doing what you're doing.

And keep your own time ticking. Bye, guys. Man, she shares the same birthday with you. Yeah, how about that? So she obviously left this before our birthdays. So happy birthday. It's now after our birthday. Yeah, you both are older.

Yeah, you know, her saying, okay, I want to go see this serial killer's head. Yeah. A lot of people might find that odd. You know who doesn't find that odd? Most true crime fans. Yeah, they're like, where's that again? I got to make sure I go there. There's a famous serial killer's head.

I'm in. Let's get in the car. Let's get it moving. They're Googling right now to see how many hours it takes to get there. Exactly. Hi, this is Joan from Golden Valley, Minnesota. It is a suburb of Minneapolis, big fan of. of your podcast and definitely team Ferguson because he's the leader and I am the leader of my family as well.

I'd like to leave a suggestion of a case that is near to my heart. It's my dad's hometown and it is a murder that occurred in Lake City, Minnesota, as the mayor and his wife that were murdered by a 14-year-old at the time, John Claypool, who said he was locked out. It was a neighbor of his, and he, I guess, wanted to see what it felt like to kill somebody. He went next door and killed the mayor and his wife, and it was 20 years unsolved until he felt guilty, I guess, and had to turn himself in. And I guess it would have remained unsolved had he not turned himself in.

But I don't think that you've done that. I've listened to, I think, all of your podcast, and I haven't. seen that you have done this one. And I would really like to hear your guys' take on that one. So like I say, I love you guys and keep safe and keep your own time ticking. Bye-bye. All right. Great voicemail.

We appreciate it. That name is familiar. I think it's on the list, but I'll check it to make sure. Sounds like it would be a very interesting episode. That whole kill. for wanting to know just what it feels like to kill. Yeah. Wow.

I mean, that, you know, all the reasons that killers give for wanting to kill kind of blow you away, but that one does for sure. And you are like a leader. I am. Like a Kim John or whatever from. Let's not get crazy. Did you just compare me to Kim Jong-un? Yeah, I did. Jeez.

I think of more of myself as a, you know, Democratic leader. Yeah. We're working together. There you go. All right. We did have mailbag, Gibbs, Caitlin Smith made us this really cool framed piece of art. Kind of centered around our whole Keep Your Own Time ticking theme. Yeah, I'm looking at it right now.

It is amazing. It is. And I know I emailed back and forth with her. She put a lot of hours into it. Yeah. So we're definitely going to find a spot to hang it up in the studio. Yeah, we appreciate that. Yeah, we do very much.

All right, buddy, that is it for another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike and Gabby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.