True Crime All The Time - Lawrence Harris Sr.

Episode Date: July 27, 2026

In this episode, Mike and Gibby examine the heartbreaking murders of 10-year-old Kendra Suing and 8-year-old Alysha Suing, who were killed by their stepfather, Lawrence "Larry" Harris Sr., in Sioux City, Iowa, in January 2008. Harris claimed the girls died after a magical ritual "went bad," but investigators uncovered evidence pointing to a calculated double murder motivated by revenge against his wife. The case explores mental illness, occult beliefs, and the difficult distinction between genuine psychiatric illness and criminal responsibility.You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 518 of the True Crime All The Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always as my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. How are you? Hey, I'm doing good. How about you, man? I'm doing excellente. Excellent. Yep.

Okay. Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shoutouts. We had Nicole Massey. Hey, Nicole. Michelle McGowan. Hey, thanks, McGowan. Jody Reynolds. What's up, Reynolds?

Mel Samper. Hey, Mel. Anthony Jones jumped out at our highest level. Oh, hey, Jay. Thank you. Alexis Witt. Well, hey, Witt. And last but not least, Cindy Wagner Douglas.

CWD. And then if we go back into the vault, this week, we selected Kim Morris. The Kim Morris. The Kim Morris. We love it. So we have a plethora of episodes out right now. A plethora? A plethora.

Okay. On Saturday night, we dropped a new Patreon episode on Maria Jose Alvarado Munoz. and she was a Honduran TV model. She won the 2014 Miss World Honduras. Yeah. But just months after that title, she and her sister were tragically murdered. So if you're a Patreon supporter, make sure you check that one out. We also have a new episode out right now on Unsolved where we're talking about the 2010

death of 26 year old model Paula Sladuski. She was found in a burning dumpster in Miami, Florida. Yeah, I made big news back then. It did. And it's a very fascinating episode. And then on Thursday's T-Cat, we're talking about the Scottish case of Caroline Muirhead. She met a gamekeeper named Sandy McKellar on Tinder in 2020. She thought he was the one.

Yeah. But he made a shocking admission. that caused her to have to make what people have described as an impossible choice. So not giving too much away, it's pretty fascinating. Make sure you listen to that one. Absolutely. All right, buddy, are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time? I am so ready.

We're talking about Lawrence Harris, Sr. In January 2008, Lawrence Harris Sr. called the police to report a fire at his home. inside, authorities found the bodies of his eight and 10-year-old stepdaughters. Lawrence claimed the girls died during a ritual that had gone bad. Gone bad. So we're going to unpack all of it. In September 2005, Marla Stromen was a single mother of a son and two daughters,

Kendra and Alicia Suez. Marla was working as a personal care attendant at a group home. in Alexandria, Minnesota. It was here that she met Lawrence Harris, Sr. Lawrence, who went by the nickname Larry, was living in the home with his infant son and had been sober for six months after a history of drug abuse. Larry, who was seven years younger than Marla, was born in upland, California. He had contact with law enforcement in California, but he was never actually arrested there. Marla also had a few minor brushes with the law in Woodbury County, Iowa, including marijuana possession in 2002. Don't we all have a little bit of brushes with the law? Yeah, to varying degrees,

I would say. You know, what's interesting, though, is when you say, you know, someone got busted for marijuana possession in 2002. In most places today, it wouldn't even be a crime. It would not. It's kind of interesting to look at marijuana in particular over the year. Right. And how it's been treated. According to the Sioux City Journal, Larry and his ex-wife used meth and marijuana, his ex-wife left the family. And Larry was trying to learn to be a better parent for his son. At the group home, Larry reached out to Marla with parenting questions.

They gradually started talking more. Marla recalled to the Sioux City Journal, we would take the kids for walks and just talk. We could sit there and talk about anything and everything. He understood what being a single parent was about. And it's fascinating to, you know, kind of dive into how people meet, what draws them together. A lot of times it's common interests or a common situation. This seems to be, you know, two single parents, bonding over that.

But Marla quickly fell in love with Larry. A month later, Larry moved out of the foster home and moved in with Marla in Sox Center, Minnesota. You ever heard of Sock Center? That's where all the socks are made. I have never heard of that ever. It's the sock capital of the world. Is it?

I don't know. It's not spelled the same, but we'll go with it. I was just trying to, you know. According to Marla, Larry felt that he couldn't parent his son properly. the setting the foster home offered. So he let his son return to a previous foster home. All right. Difficult decision.

Big, tough decision. Now, was that the right thing for his son? Maybe. I don't know. But I do know that's a tough decision for a parent. Yeah. And he could also be making that because he doesn't want to be burdened. And he wants to pursue this new relationship with Marlon.

Well, you hate to say that, but actually. could be true too. It could be. While he was living with Marla, Larry volunteered to watch her children so she wouldn't have to leave them with a babysitter. He would play with and read to the children, take them to the park, and walked them to school. He tucked them in at night and told them he loved him. Because Larry was so great with kids, Marla encouraged him to regain custody of a son, and she even helped him with the process. Within a year, Larry's son was back in the household. So, I mean, I don't know. Obviously, Larry had some issues, right, with drugs at one point. But it sure sounds at least from Marla that, you know, he was a pretty good dad to her kids.

He was very loving, very attentive. And he does get his son back. So, you know, maybe you give him the benefit of the doubt and say, well, he was doing. what he thought was best back then. At the time. And now he's in a better place and, you know, he wants his son back with him. Well, they seem to be happy. Yeah. So happy that they got married in July 2006. Marla recalled that they hardly ever fought and the children seemed happy, right?

Hardly ever fought. The children are happy. The relationship's pretty good, I guess. You know, what else can you ask for? I mean, when you hear things like that, You think, and that's the perfect recipe for a successful marriage. No fighting and everybody happy. Yeah.

I'd say it's not a bad recipe. But according to the Sioux City Journal, authorities in Sox Center, Minnesota responded to two or three minor incidents at the family's home, but the details of the incidents were not reported. Now, you could say, okay, a minor incident or minor incidents, what could they be? they could be anything. What I will say is that the police have never been called to my home for any type of incident. Yeah. So I don't know what that means.

I don't know what people's experiences are. You know, what's your experience? What are people thinking right now as they listen to me talk about this? Are they saying, no, no, we've had some incidents. Police had to come out. Neighbors call because we were too loud, right? Something dumb like that. But two or three incidents.

Okay. What were they all about? We don't know because we just don't have the details. I mean, I had a couple of neighbors back in the day that police were out there. It seemed almost twice a week. And to me, that's not normal. No. That is abnormal.

Now, they were there to take complaints against you or to make complaints against you. You're leaving that part out. I didn't think we need to go into details. Marla and Larry had different religious beliefs. She was Christian, and Larry told her he was pagan. Marla explained to the Sioux City Journal that Larry's religious beliefs were related to Wicca. Now, she was aware of his religious beliefs, but she knew very little about Wicca, and that came from other family members who were also pagan.

And I'm telling you, when I hear the words Wicca, pagan, things like that, it always draws me back to the West Memphis three. Yeah. And the whole, you know, satanic angle versus Wicca, the argument that, you know, Wicca is not satanic. It's about nature and this and that. I forget exactly what it is. But yeah, I don't know. You hear certain things and it just. draws you or takes you back to something that you've seen before, you've heard before.

And for me, it takes me back to that case in the documentary. Yeah, yep, you're right. I mean, there was a growth in the Wicca community a few years ago. I mean, I remember seeing it online and people, you know, talking about how, you know, they were Wicca and, uh, I guess something to do with the moon and witches and all that kind of stuff. That's a great synopsis, sure. So when you say a few years ago, do you mean two or three or 20? No, I mean like seven, eight. Okay, because a few, the word a few, right? Or the term, a few is very subjective. It can be. To me, a few is, I don't know, three, four. Yeah. But,

okay, seven, eight. I'm not aware because you know me. I'm not on social media. I don't pay attention into social media. I wasn't going to go 6-7, but... Six-seven. I'll drive all the parents crazy that have kids that say 6-7, 6-7. The fact that two guys in their 50s, or one who's now 60, oh, thanks for bringing that. Knows about it.

It just shows you the kind of universality. No, that's not even a word. But it shows you the proliferation of it. It is a word of my vocabulary. I pulled a gibby. Marla thought Larry was casting love spells, which apparently Wiccans used to do good. Marla asked Larry not to cast spells when the children were home because it was against their beliefs. Love spells. You ever cast a love spell? Oh, man. All the time, probably.

Yeah. She told the Sioux City Journal, I didn't want them getting curious. But I guess he didn't follow my instructions. I knew that paganism isn't for harming people. Larry's behavior changed after he got a copy of the satanic Bible, which is the foundational text of Anton LeVay's Church of Satan. He asked her to read it. Marla read the first two pages and told Larry she didn't like it because it contradicted the Bible.

Now, I do think big difference probably between Wicca and LeVay's Church of Satan. I would have to agree with that. I don't know everything about either one, but Larry brought red, white, and black candles into the home. He drew a sigil of baffament in crayon on a dresser and used a kitchen knife to draw his blood. He went into the woods to cast spells and returned with cuts on his hand. Larry's behavior scared Marla and she tried to stay away from it. I'm going to tell you right now, if I'm in a relationship with someone and they're drawing

symbols and, you know, drawing their own blood and we may have to part ways is probably my, my thinking. Yeah. It just doesn't seem like something that I really want inside the home. First of all, why are you drawing in crayon? on my good dresser. Yeah, exactly. And there's blood all over the place. You're traipsing it in and out of the house. Did there be a more neat way of doing this? But also, it was clearly said, right? She's Christian. Now, he's into like some of this satanic stuff. How is that going to mesh? I don't think it can mesh,

right? It's its polar opposites. In the spring of 2007, the family moved to Sioux City, Iowa. Marla's hometown because the owner of the home they were living in, put the house up for sale. So they're still together. And, you know, as much as some of this behavior scared her, she said she tried to stay away from it, but how much can you really if you're living with someone day in and day out? The Sioux City Journal reported that in 2007, Marla's 13-year-old son was convicted of secondary degree criminal sexual conduct in a location outside Iowa and became a registered sex offender. The victim was a girl 13 or younger.

Tough. It is tough. To be a registered sex offender at the age of 13. But obviously, and we don't have all the details, what this kid did was pretty bad. To have to go on that list. Yeah. You know, my wife and I just got back from, Jamaica for my daughter's wedding, it was so relaxing. So comfortable, part of that was my

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and 8-year-old Alicia were students at the local elementary school. Alicia was in the third grade and Kendra was in the fifth grade. Family members said, that both girls enjoyed going to the park, swimming, roller skating, and baking. Kendra liked playing computer games, listening to music, and writing short stories. One of her favorite book genres was anime. She was learning Japanese and dreamed of visiting Japan one day. Kendra was also an animal lover and wanted to be a vet when she grew up. I think a lot of kids nowadays are into this anime.

You're into it. You got anime books and posters. I do not. Right there, anime. No anime in my lineup whatsoever. But, you know, some of the guys that I play Xbox with, they're always talking about these anime cartoon shows that they watch. And they're really into them.

And these are adults. These are not kids, right? Isn't Pokemon anime? I guess technically. Yeah. I don't know. The ones they talk about are all like demons and things like that. Okay.

It's what you grow up on, right? It's what they probably grew up on. Maybe. I have no idea. Yeah. One of Alicia's favorite hobbies was drawn, and she had decided she wanted to be a teacher. Those who knew the girls said they were sweet and fun-loving,

their neighborhood in Sioux City didn't have many children. But neighbor Marie, White did have a 10-year-old daughter who often played with Kendra. White recalled that Kendra liked playing with her dogs. And the last time she saw Kendra, she was bringing cookies to her home on Christmas. It's kind of sweet. Yeah. I love it when people visit and bring cookies.

Alicia's teacher, Jenny Hickman, recalled that Alicia could read at a fifth grade level at the beginning of second grade. But what stood out the most was how she always wanted to help her classmates. Alicia finished her assignment so quickly that she often helped other students with their work. Sounds so much like me in my younger days. Yeah. Yeah. Don't know how you got held back so many times when your reading was so advanced and all your other skills were so acutely honed.

I think it's because the teacher wanted me to stay back so I can teach the next round of students coming in to help her out. And that does make a lot of sense. It really does. It's almost like having a full-time student teacher. Yes. At home, tension was building between Larry and Marla. To Marla's knowledge, Larry didn't cast spells at their home in Sioux City until the day of the murders. So we talked about it, right?

How is this relationship working when he's kind of getting into some of the satanic stuff? he's casting spells that that involve drawing your blood with the, you know, sharp instruments. And she is said to be Christian. Well, now we know that she wasn't aware that he was doing any of this while they were in Iowa. So maybe he just kept it hidden. You must have. I mean, how upset would you be to find out that your partner and your spouse was doing things that you said very specifically not to do? you know, I don't want you practicing this in the house.

You mean like a partner saying, I specifically don't want you to cheat on me. Yes. And then that person goes out and cheats on them. They're going to be pretty upset, I think. Absolutely. Yeah. And I'd be like, hey, if you're going to practice that stuff, isn't her way to practice it to make sure that like, because you haven't cut the grass in two weeks. Can you just like practice it while you cut the grass?

Or whatever, whoever you're praying to, make them come out and cut the grass. You know, like tomorrow we wake up, the grass is cut. I mean, can that happen, you know? Maybe. I don't know how it works, man. From the outside, though, neighbors thought Larry seemed like an attentive father, but family member said he was socially awkward around people he didn't know and talked incessantly to those he did.

Okay. Marla told the Sioux City Journal that Larry was diagnosed with bipolar disorder. He stopped taking his medication in June 2007. After that, they fought often about things like disciplining the kids, the dishes or the laundry. When Marlon went out with her friends who were mostly male, Larry thought she was being unfaithful. She often took the kids or female friends with her to put him at ease. Do you remember that one time I was telling you, oh, we had a little argument about the laundry and you said, I'll tell you had to take care of that, Mike.

He said, do the laundry. mess it up completely. Mess it up really good. I do remember that. And you never have to do it again. That has worked out for me for about 33 years now. I haven't done laundry in a very long time because I messed a number of loads up. Yeah. It was great advice. So what Marla did was she gave Larry an ultimatum. He had to take medication and attend counseling with her or she would leave him. She didn't want to get divorced, but she didn't want the kids to see. them fighting anymore. And what they were fighting over was pretty trivial, right? I mean, yeah, laundry, dishes, but isn't it the trivial stuff that a lot of us often fight over?

Yeah. Now, how much of this, though, was Larry and his bipolar disorder and then him not taking his medication for it? Yeah. You got to factor that in. After Thanksgiving, Larry saw a doctor about his mental health. The doctor wanted to do more tests before prescribing medication, but Larry never made a follow-up appointment. In December 2007, about two weeks before the murders, Larry told Marla he could hurt her in the worst possible way without even touching her.

She was alarmed, but believed the comment was the result of Larry's anger about the ultimatator. Okay, alarmed, you know, maybe you should have emotions that exceed that. To me, that's a little bit more than just alarming. Yeah. That's scary. Kind of threatening. Not kind of. It is.

I can hurt you in the worst possible way without even touching. At 4.19 p.m. on January 6, 2008, the Sioux City Police and Fire Departments responded to an anonymous report of a fire at the family's home. Investigators later determined that Larry was the one who called 911, but he didn't identify himself to the operator. First responders arrived at the scene and found Larry who had blood on his hands. He indicated the girls were dead in their bedroom upstairs. He said they died while he was casting a spell that had gone bad,

and that could have had severe. consequences. Okay. First responders see all kinds of strange and horrific things. This is horrific in the fact that two young girls lost their lives. But it's also extremely strange when they encounter this guy outside. He's got blood on his hands and he's talking about the fact that he cast the spell that went wrong. It's going to land kind of strange, I think. Right. I mean, you're, hey guys, I try to to do a spell. It didn't land the right way. Unfortunately, two girls died. I mean, they're going to look at them and be like, what are you talking about? Yeah. Authorities determine the fire started in the basement of the home and only caused superficial damage to the structure.

Larry told police about a spell notebook in his bedroom closet. It contained drawings from the book Pagan Waves. References from the occult fiction book, Necro-N. Namakom and page numbers corresponding to the satanic Bible, including one specific spell. Larry also told the police he was possessed by Cali, the Hindu goddess of time and change. Or so he believed. Oh, I wasn't assuming he was actually possessed by Cali, the goddess of time and change. But to me, this is really going back to him not taking his. medication. For sure, yeah. I just can't believe that that was good in any form or fashion.

Police confirm that Marla and her 13-year-old son were not home when the murders occurred, but Larry's three-year-old son was in the home. Medical examiners determined that Kendra died from asphyxiation and Alicia died from asphyxiation as a consequence of strangulation. With a neck fracture, she was strangled with a cloth belt. On January 7, 2008, Larry was charged with two counts of first-degree murder. Sioux City Police Chief Joe Frisbee said, you're talking about people casting spells. Spells gone bad.

Obviously, there's a lot more going on here than a straightforward homicide. Also, when you find out that at least one of the girls was choked to death with a belt. Okay. I don't know how the spell gone wrong plays into that. Yeah. Now maybe we're going to get into it a little more here, but Chief Frisbee also noted that arson is often used to cover up other crimes,

but they didn't know yet if that was Larry's intent. Friends and families helped Marla move out of the home shortly after the murders. she said she could no longer live there telling KMEG TV all I can keep asking is why and I keep saying what if I would have come home earlier from work what if I would have let them stay with their grandmonds would they still be a lot man those are the worst questions that you ask yourself and how could you not have those types of what if questions after you know something like this happens, what if I'd have done this? What if I hadn't done this? What if I had done something different? Would they still be a line? And that's just got to eat it a person. On January 8th,

the Sioux City Journal published an interview with Carrie Gordon, Associate Pastor at Cornerstone World Outreach, who said Kendra and Alicia might have given hints in the summer of 2007 that Larry was performing rituals at the family home. The sisters previously attended the church's children's ministry. After one summer lesson about the church's view on the sinfulness of practicing witchcraft, they bombarded a bus driver with questions. According to Gordon, the kids were pelting our bus captain with questions constantly all the way home about that issue.

Why is it wrong? Our bus captain got the creepy feeling. that they obviously had a lot of weird stuff going on in their house. After that lesson, the girls didn't return to the program until the final session in November. And my thought is, yeah, it would seem strange, but what could you really do with that information? You know, it's not like they confided in this bus driver that they were being abused or something like that. That would be an actionable item for sure. this is just a little strange, right?

Why is this witchcraft thing so wrong? I don't know it's something that you would call CPS over. No, I don't think so either. I mean, if anything, you might go back and talk to the minister of the church and be like, hey, these girls were asking some strange questions about witchcraft. Well, it seems to me that the pastor was aware of it. Now, at what point in time was he aware of it? doubt we don't know. This could have come out after the kids died. On January 9th, Marla told the

Sioux City Journal, she still didn't know what happened on the day of the killings. A year later, in January 2009, Marla did an in-depth interview with the Sioux City Journal recounting the day of the murders and how she found out about the tragic loss of her daughters. She said she got up at 4.30 a.m. on January 6, 2008, and got ready to go to work, she was going to put in a double shift, and Larry would watch the kids. The girls were sleeping in their shared bedroom. Marla's 13-year-old son and Larry's son were also sleeping. As she prepared to leave, Larry kissed her and told her he loved her. She clocked in shortly before her 5.30 shift started. She went about her normal morning duties. At 1.30 p.m., she suddenly got the sense that something was wrong and asked to go home,

but they were already short staff that day. Marla realized she hadn't received any text from Larry, who usually sent between 50 and 100 texts a day. That's a lot of text messages. It is. Wow. I mean, that is a month for me. If. If.

But there's a couple of things here. Yes, that's a lot of texts. don't know what they were normally about. But some people just love the text back and forth. I get that. But this idea that, you know, Marla had what we have talked about previously as kind of a mother's intuition. It definitely seems like she had something like that.

Something's not right. I need to get home. Unfortunately, she couldn't leave because they were short staffed. She texted Larry during her 4.15 p.m. but received no response. Then Marla got a call from her cousin, reporting fire trucks outside her home. She called Larry again.

But he still didn't answer. She asked to leave work and called Larry again. As she was leaving him a voicemail, someone called her from Larry's phone and left a message. All Marla could hear was Larry swearing in the background. Moments later, a police dispatcher called Marla's workplace and told her there was a fire at her house. She called Larry as she drove home.

This time, a police officer answered and told her she needed to come home. And I can't even imagine a scenario like that where you're feeling like something is wrong, but then at the same time, you're so completely helpless. She can't get a hold of Larry. He's swearing in the background. it's just real strange. Now you have a police officer telling you you need to be here. Yes.

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Optional products and services may have fees or charges. For more information, go to Chime. com slash disclosures. Marla saw fire trucks and police cars surrounding her home. A firefighter stopped her from entering the house and a police officer told her that her daughters were at the hospital and Larry was at the police station with his son. Marla called her older son who was at Walmart and instructed him to go to her sister's house. Shortly after an officer drove Marla to the hospital. And you talk about the drive from work to home. being harrowing. It must have been.

This is going to be a tough drive as well. Oh, yeah. Your kids are at the hospital. There's been a fire. You don't know what's going on. And an officer is driving you. I don't think you're feeling too good about it. No. And you have to be extremely nervous. An officer led her to a small room to wait. She recalled knowing that her daughters were gone.

But the officer said he couldn't tell her. Marla pleaded with her. him to tell her and he confirmed her suspicion that her daughters were dead. Well, that had to be rough. Soul crushing. Yeah. Marla was brought to the station for an interview and was questioned for more than four hours before she was told that Larry was accused of strangling the girls to death and setting the fire.

Marla was asked if she wanted to see Larry, she said yes. During their interaction, she asked Larry to show her his hands. and she saw dried blood under his cuticles. That's going to be a rough face-to-face meeting. Oh, I can't imagine what would be running through my mind about that person knowing what they did to my kids. Well, and you just want to leap across the table and get at him. But I can imagine when she saw the dried blood, that must have cemented it in her mind. that, yes, he killed them.

I wonder if she also maybe had thoughts about some of the rituals that he had done before. Yeah. That involved blood. I don't know. On January 15, 2008, prosecutors formally charged Larry with two counts of first-degree murder. In early April, the defense notified prosecutors they may use a mental health defense. In late April, a judge ruled that prosecution expert, would be allowed to review Larry's psychological tests,

his defense noted that he still had more testing to complete. Court filings in August 2008 shed more light on the details of the investigation. Prosecutor said Larry was practicing Satanism and carefully planned the killings as part of a spell from the Satanic Bible. And we mentioned it earlier, right? Larry had a spellbook that contained references to and drawings from the Satanic Bible, which is the founding document of the Church of Satan,

the Necronomacom, the Book of the Dead, invented by author H.P. Lovecraft and pagan ways, an introduction to paganism. Passages from the Satanic Bible were consistent with the injuries and cause of death of Kendra and Alicia, according to prosecutors. the defense wanted to block prosecutors from referring to Satanism, the Church of Satan, or the terms satanic, wican, and paganism.

The defense argued that these terms weren't relevant and could prejudice jurors. The defense wrote in their filing, the prejudice against the religions and organizations is called instantly by the names themselves. And it doesn't surprise me a bit. that they would want to try to get all of this stuff left out. Yeah, it's not going to help their case. It is not. When you start getting into Satanism, satanic, paganism, things like that, well, I mean, people have a certain connotation.

They also might lump all of those things together. A juror might. Good. The prosecution argued in their response that the evidence was critical. to the state's case and could prove Larry was not insane at the time of the murders. The evidence of Larry's belief in the text was proved. He wasn't mentally ill or committing a psychotic act, but was conducting a spell or ritual. And I wonder if they had a little more leeway in that because the defense was thinking about, you know,

using a mental health argument. So maybe the judge would be more apt to let certain things in or deny this defense motion because, well, the prosecution has to have a way to combat that defense. According to the prosecution's motion, one of the last spells in Larry's spellbook was from a chapter in the satanic Bible. The invocation employed toward the conjuration of destruction. okay all first of all it's a very long spell name secondly none of it sounds good no it sounds like something you should not be performing no it's like the one from harry potter what's the one uh that kills people the one you're not supposed to use oh yeah that one you know what i'm talking yeah can't think

of it i'll get a thousand emails though of what it is for some reason the only spell i can think of is the one to repair his eyeglasses. That's the only one that's coming to mine. I know that's not it. In the two-page chapter, the invocation mentions slashing the victim and rend that gagging tongue and close his or her throat,

O' Callie. Prosecutor said the girl's injuries were consistent with writings contained in that chapter. And we said it, right? Larry also told police, police, he was possessed by Cali at the time of the murders. As he believed. Again, I don't think it was true.

I think that's what he believed. You keep leaning on this. He wasn't really, I don't think he was really possessed by Cali. The Hindu goddess of time and change. But, you know, in pop culture, Cali is often associated with death and destruction. The Sioux City Journal noted that, Although the satanic Bible has a chapter titled On the Choice of Human Sacrifice,

the book prohibits killing children. It says that human sacrifices are to be made indirectly through a curse or hex that leads to the physical, mental, or emotional destruction of the sacrifice in ways and means not attributable to the magician. Okay. Well, you know, I think prohibiting the killing of children is a good thing. That's a really good thing. Maybe you need to expand that a little bit more. But committing a human sacrifice indirectly, right, through a curse or hex that leads to the destruction of the sacrifice.

Right. I don't know how you accomplish that, but you're basically saying someone's going to die. Yeah, it doesn't sound good. those worthy of being sacrificed or those who have unjustly wronged, hurt, or made trouble for the Satanus. In short, a person asking to be cursed by their very actions. You ever put a curse or a hex on somebody? It just did right now. I feel that. Do you?

Yeah. Yeah. Now, I don't believe in a lot of things. And I've been pretty vocal about some of the things I don't believe in. This is another thing I don't believe in. Oh, I know. I know when we were down in New Orleans, you walked into some place and went in and laughed very loudly at the person sitting at the table and then left. Like, you were challenging them. I thought, hey, I'm not with him. And you walked out with a voodoo doll that looked a lot like me somehow.

And I got it for free for some reason. You know. Yeah, I don't know about cursing people or putting hexes on people. I just don't believe in any of that. Well, for it to work, I think there has to be some form of belief from the person being cursed. If it works at all, right? Well, almost, and you could say if a person believed in the curse, could they actually manifest the curse themselves. They probably could. From the fact that they just believe in it and they believe every little thing that's happening to them if it's at all bad is because of the curse.

And then things just start to rapidly go downhill. I mean, this is pretty close to the conversation I had with Freud, you know, Jr. About five, seven years ago, I can't remember one, but we were kind of saying the same thing. Yeah, it seems like a conversation you'd have. Yeah. Prosecutors also wrote that authorities who searched the home found candles,

a ritual knife that allegedly had DNA from one of the children on it, the sigil of Baphamed, bells, and an amulet with an inverted pinagram. All the items, including the number and color of the candles, match the directions for conducting satanic rituals in a chapter of the satanic Bible. So he had all the stuff. He was performing it, you know, based on the instructions that he had in the books. I think that's what the prosecution is really laying out, right? it's not just that he had the Bible.

He had all the stuff in the home that directly matched the instructions from the satanic Bible on how to, I guess, you know, conduct this curse or make it happen. The defense maintained that references to Satanism would waste time and cause confusion, they argued that if the prosecution was allowed to invoke those images, they would be entitled to present evidence to clarify the information, which would distract from relevant issues in this trial. And again, I think the defense was trying very hard to get any reference to Satanism, the satanic Bible, any of it excluded. And I'm thinking the prosecution would be like, okay, that's fine.

If it distracts from the relevant issues of this trial, as you think it will, we're okay with that because we want to make sure we can say whatever we want to say about this Santanic stuff. Well, it seems like it's very central to their argument. Yeah. The defense believed prosecutors planned to suggest. Larry was affiliated with the Church of Satan. Prosecutors responded, they didn't plan to mention the Church of Satan. Representative of the Church also contacted prosecutors and assured them,

Larry was not a member. So apparently they have a pretty good roster role of who exactly is a member of the Church of Satan. During an August hearing, the defense informed the judge that the prosecution's goal was to connect what Larry said and believed with Satanism and to suggest that Satanism is evil. By doing so, the prosecution would be ignoring text within the Satanic Bible that prohibits human sacrifice, the casting of spells and practice of witchcraft was not in and of itself proof of adherence to Satanism according to the defense. And this is the chess game,

right, of the trial process. Yeah. The prosecution and the defense trying to get things excluded, included. It is very much more chess than checkers, in my opinion. I mean, is the frontline battle. This could determine the outcome. Well, in a lot of cases, it does, right? The pretrial motions, what evidence is allowed to be introduced and what evidence is deemed to be excluded can often make or break the trial for one side or another. Defense attorney Michael Williams said about Assistant Woodbury County Attorney Mark Campbell, as quoted by the Sioux City Journal. he wants shock value, sensationalism, and nitpick analysis of religious text in order to satisfy an inference. The judge said he would review an affidavit from the high priest of the Church of Satan and a copy of the Satanic Bible before deciding whether prosecutors could reference Satanism at trial.

All right. So now the judge has homework. I mean, he's got to go home over the weekend and read this affidavit from a high priest of the church of Satan. He's got to read the satanic Bible. I wonder how that plays out, you know, especially if he's like really religious, you know. It might be a tough read, but it's something he's got to do. I mean, at the end of the day, he has to make the most fair and educated ruling, you know, that he can't. That's true. documents filed in September suggested that the murders were an act of revenge aimed at the girl's mother.

In their motion, prosecutors noted Larry's threat to Marla, where he said he could hurt her in the worst possible way without even touching her. Well, that would be the way to do that. Yeah, he didn't touch her, but I don't know how he could have hurt her anymore. Yeah. than to kill two of her children, maybe killing her third child as well. Yeah. That would have been even worse, but the motion noted that Marla's teenage son witnessed Larry's threat and that Marla and Larry discussed the statement in a recorded conversation from jail.

Larry also told the defense psychiatrist who examined him that he believed Marla was having an affair. Prosecutors wanted the jury to examine Larry's psychological. reports and hear facts that would show he wasn't mentally ill as the defense planned to argue. According to their motion, defense expert Dr. Harold Burstow testified in a deposition that Larry's responses to a psychiatric test indicated he may be faking a mental illness. His responses were atypical for someone with a mental illness, but were relatively common among individuals feigning mental disorder. And I think that probably happens more than we realize because there's a benefit,

right, if they can get labeled a certain way before the trial starts. Yeah. I mean, there can be a big difference in going to a mental facility for mental health. Yeah. As opposed to going straight to prison, you know, maybe you go to a facility and then you later go to prison, but maybe you just go to the facility until they say you are better and then you go free. Yeah, it could be true. That has happened. Yeah. The prosecution argued they had the right to offer testimony about a non-psychotic motive for the crime. According to the state,

killing the girls to get revenge was consistent with teachings in the satanic Bible about destroying enemies by proxy. In October, a judge ruled that video, testimony from Larry's parents would be permitted at trial, John and Sherry Harris lived in California, and they couldn't leave their jobs to testify in Iowa. They were going to testify about Larry's numerous psychiatric institutional placements in California from 1998 until 2003, according to a defense filing. After several delays, jury selection began on January 12, 2009. In opening statements, the prosecution noted that Larry and Marla were having marital problem, implying Larry killed Kendra and Alicia to get back at Marla for a suspected affair.

They argued Larry was faking his mental illness to avoid conviction. The defense chose to delay their opening statement. The jury watched Larry's police interview where he denied killing the girls and recreated how he cast a spell in the first. family's basement. Larry said he had been planning a particular spell for a while. On the afternoon of January 6th, 2008, he went to the basement to cast the spell. He told the detective who was interviewing him. Now, if I called the God wrong, if I turned the wrong way, if I had the altar on the wrong wall, if I said words wrong, dire consequences. He claimed he cast the spell to straighten out

his teenage stepson. Detective Heather Fleckenstein testified earlier in the trial that she interviewed the teenager on the day of the murders. He said he didn't get along with his sisters and did not like his death. According to Larry, the spell must have reversed itself because when he returned home from running errands

with his son that afternoon, the house was filled with smoke. The jury saw that before the detective entered the room to question him, Larry was alone in the room for almost an hour. He talked to himself, cursed, cried, moaned, he rocked back and forth in a crouched position. He said, what did I do? Why the blank am I here? When speaking to a detective, Larry explained that he practiced witchcraft and referred to himself as a solitary witch. He got up and demonstrated how he cast a spell. By walking around and motioning with his hands, he explained how he lit a black

candle, sprinkled tobacco ash, tacked a paper pinagram on the east wall, and lit five more candles. He pulled out a bell and rang it to cleanse the air. He turned counterclockwise once in each direction and recited the spell. According to Larry, and I said, it is done and blew out my candles, threw the wax off to the side like I always do, put it away, went upstairs. This must have been a heck of a show for this detective. I'm thinking. But there's some things that we've talked about that I want to revisit. You know, he is claiming that he cast this spell to straighten out his, you know,

his teenage stepson, right? Marla's oldest son, oldest child, actually. But it must have reversed itself, Gibbs. It didn't work exactly the way that he thought it was going to. It ricocheted back. Somehow it didn't do anything to Marla's son. It somehow caught the house on fire and killed her two girls. But here's the problem I have if I'm a jerk.

I get it. You're talking about spells and Satanism and incantations and lighting. candles and pentagrams, how does one of the girls get strangle with a cloth belt? Yeah. How's that happen? Like, that's part of the ritual? He doesn't do it. It just happens.

It just doesn't make sense, man. It doesn't. I think even if you believed in some of this stuff, I don't think that part would make sense at all. Larry said he got his son dressed and went to the girls' shared bedroom upstairs. He pushed the door open and yelled inside, but there were no sounds. He assumed they were asleep. I mean, how big is this freaking bedroom?

Yeah, but you can't figure that out. It's all just a little too convenient. It is, right? The story, about 1.30 p.m., he walked with his son to the grocery store and returned home to shovel the sidewalk. His son complained about being cold. So he brought him inside and found the house filled with smoke. Larry said,

I'm in the front of my house freaking out. I ran back inside to try to get my girls, and I was in there screaming at them, trying to fight my way through there. I can't see. Officers testified earlier at trial that Larry told them when they first arrived at home. The girls are blanking dead. Obviously, he used an expletive. They cut that out in the research in the paper.

He was asked if he killed them. And he said, no. when asked who did kill them, he said, hell if I know. It's a strange series of statements and responses. Yeah. How does he know Larry at the time that first responders show up that the girls are dead? How could he have any knowledge of that whatsoever? Because even according to him, he never made it.

He couldn't get to them. Yeah, he couldn't see him. And then when he's asked, he killed them, he said, he says no. When I asked who did kill them, he says, hell if I know. To me, that's an admission of an assumption that they were murdered. If the house is on fire, could they have been killed by smoke inhalation, something to do with the fire maybe? Could have. But he's not saying that. No, he's not. He's almost admitting that they were killed. He just didn't know who had done it. And that's his strange response in my book. He told the detective

interviewing him that he was possessed by the goddess Callie and the fire was vengeance against him for failing to respect all of the magical laws. There are so many magical laws, Gibbs. That's why I put out a Bertrona spell. Uh-huh. Just in case. Just in case, yeah. Larry was shown a photo of the brown belt found around Alicia's neck. He looked down at his lap, but denied knowing whose belt was used to strangle her. And I don't know if you've heard this from experts, but I've heard a lot of people say when you ask someone a question and they deny knowing the answer or they deny something. but they look in a direction where something you would expect related to be.

Right. It's like a subconscious admission. So is he looking down at his belt because that's what he used? Most likely. A lot of times it happens in traffic stops on those body cam videos. They'll ask them, you know, is there, is there any drugs in the car? And somebody will, immediately look at like their center console. Yeah. Yeah. Like where they would have it. Right.

Where it ultimately turns out to be. But at the same time, they're saying no, but they're looking at this center console. Jurors also viewed a video of Larry speaking to Marla and denying that he killed the girls. He said, I didn't do this on purpose. I didn't mean for this to happen. Just a spell gone bad. And again, right? He's not saying he didn't do it.

He's saying, I didn't do it on purpose. I didn't mean for it to happen. Sioux City Fire Marshal Chuck Hirsch testified that they believed the fire originated in a pile of clothing on the basement floor and was most likely set intentionally. And I get that. Now, if he was doing this big ritual, it sounds like he had a number of candles lit at one point. Could one of them have fallen over? Yeah, could have. Now, he said he put them all out.

But then how did the fire start? If you believe Larry, it was the goddess Callie, started this fire, killed these girls because he had failed to respect some magical laws. Yeah. Overstep the boundaries of the law. My thought is he's completely full of it. I just can't figure out how much is due to, you know, maybe mental illness and how much of it is just, you know, fantastical trying to come up with an explanation for why these two girls

are dead. I think it's more of the latter. I definitely think it could be. It could be a combination of both. But I think some of the second is definitely in there for sure. A criminologist testified that Alicia's DNA was found in several samples taken from Larry's hands and on the tip of a 12-inch knife found in the bedroom closet. Two of Larry's fingerprints were found on the knife. Kendra's DNA was found on one of Larry's shoes. A forensic pathologist testified that Alicia, who was found nude with a green cloth belt wrapped around her neck, had a broken neck, and died of strangulation due to asphyxiation. She had marks on her neck and a tear in her genital area, but no evidence of semen was found on either girl.

Kendra also had marks on her neck consistent with the use of a woman's slip found with her body. She suffered two deep parallel cuts on one arm and a cut in her genital area. Okay, we are finding out a lot more about the details of what happened to these two young girls, and it just keeps getting. worse. Yeah. He's a monster. He can hide behind whatever he wants to be hide behind. But in the day, what Larry did was horrific. Well, it was going to be horrific just with the murder by strangulation. But now you're getting into an area where it sounds to me that there was some sexual contact on his part. Not to mention the fact that he used.

the knife to make cuts on their their genital area. It's monstrous stuff. And arguing that it came as a result of a spell gone wrong, I think that's going to be real tough for a jury member to buy. I'm not buying it. Oh, either am I. In their opening statement, the defense argued that Larry was under pressure, unmedicated, and trying to find a way to gain control of his life when he had tends to.

attempted to cast a spell in the basement of his home. Performing the spell allowed him to slip into a dissociative state, a trans, in which he did not know right from wrong. Two forensic scientists would testify about this, and Larry had a history of mental health problems. Dating back to childhood, he used drugs, experienced hallucinations, and heard voices. Sherry Clark testified that Larry was hospitalized three times. After trying to end his life, he frequently went to her house in Oro Grande, California, when he ran away from home. Larry's mother was verbally abusive to both her and Larry, according to Clark. She screamed obscenities and told Clark a practicing wicked that she and her kids would go to hell. Okay. So maybe he did not have a good childhood.

Sounds like it. Right? Right. if you believe the testimony. And I think he did have a history of mental health problems. But did he try to cast a spell in his basement that somehow caused him to fall into a dissociative trance? And so he didn't know right from wrong when he went and killed his two young stepdaughter. Yeah, I don't believe that. I don't believe it either.

It's a, it's a defense argument. They got to come up with some. then, right? The defense noted that Larry's relationship with Marla provided him with structure and a supportive environment. Childcare advocate Nancy Webb testified that she never saw anything inappropriate or unusual while working with Larry. He was invested in his son's development, which was affected by fetal alcohol syndrome and appeared to have a good relationship with his three stepchildren. And this is one of the strange things about this case. right? Even Marla said it. It's like he was a good stepdad. He took care of them. He would tuck him in. They loved him. It seems to make what happened that much more strange.

I mean, look, she was very clear to him. Do not practice whatever this is that you're doing in the house. And especially around my kids. The defense noted that things changed when Larry's med, ran out, Marla told Larry he had to go back on it. And he tried to get his medication, but couldn't find the time and money to get the required physical before doctors would prescribe it. Marla's teenage son testified that things were going well when they first moved to Sioux City, but his stepfather experienced mood swings. And his temper worsened when he stopped taking his medication. He never saw Larry hurt anyone. Larry was an okay person. And he was an okay person. and tried to keep him out of trouble and deal with the consequences of his conviction.

Larry never practiced witchcraft around them and stopped talking about it to them after Marla asked him to stop. Again, what makes all of this that much stranger? It really does. So on this day, he decided to practice it. But why? Right. And for me, that's the big question.

Yeah. Was it because he'd stopped taking his medication and his mental health had grown, you know, worse? Or was it because he thought Marla was having an affair? And wanted revenge. And he wanted to get back at her. And as he said, I can hurt you without ever touching you. Yeah. Well.

And that's exactly what happened. He was right. In closing arguments, the problem. The prosecution emphasized that Larry faked his mental illness to avoid conviction. On January 29th, 2009, Larry Harris, Sr. was found guilty on two counts of first-degree murder. On February 18th, he received two life sentences. And it doesn't surprise me one bit, Gibbs. And I think, you know, from everything that we've talked about, you know, that was the right outcome.

and a life sentence or two life sentences is what he deserved. Yes. Didn't deserve anything less than. The lives of Kendra and Alicia were tragically cut short by their stepfather. The defense tried to argue that Larry was legally insane at the time of the murders due to a history of mental illness and being off his medication. But the jury sided with the prosecution, who argued that Larry killed the girls as part of a plot to get revenge on his wife who he believed was unfaithful.

And we just talked about it. I mean, that's kind of where I think we both were leaning as well. Yeah. Did he have some mental health problems? Yeah. I think he probably did. Oh, I agree. I think so too.

Does it help when you're prescribed medication, but you don't take it? No, it never does. Yeah. Right? It's never a good thing when somebody is supposed to take. that type of medication, but they don't for whatever reason. And I don't know. It could have been a part of him making the decisions that he made. But I think at the end of the day, this was more about trying to get back at his wife because he thought she was cheating on him. Yeah, I definitely believe

that's why he did what he did. Now, I do think he had been, you know, practicing witchcraft or Satanism or whatever you want to call it, right? He had been doing some spells. I don't think there was any doubt about that for years. I just wonder if that became his explanation for what happened, right? As he's thinking this thing through, he's like, well, I'll say I was trying to do a spell and it backfire. Something went bad.

Yeah. Because you've got to come up with something. Yeah, I guess you have to try. but to me it just doesn't explain all the facts of what happened. I mean, are you telling me that a spell strangled these two girls, cut their genital areas? There was even trauma to their genital areas.

It's tough for me to believe because I don't believe in spells in the first place. But even if there were spells, that would seem like a pretty complex one. It would. To get it to do all of that. his hands were dirty in on this yeah yeah i mean you look at the blood under his fingernails yeah the blood on the knife one of the girls's DNA which i'm assuming was blood or or something to that effect on his shoes it couldn't have been just DNA that he would have gotten from being normally in the

house with that right pretty hard to overlook that type of evidence yep so i think larry harris senior is exactly where he deserves to be. And from my way of thinking, he should spend the rest of his life in prison. Yeah, no reason to come out. Nope. So that's it for our episode on Lawrence Harris, Senior. We got a voicemail Gibbs. You want to check that out.

Let's hear it. Hey, Mike. I have got to tell you, I had to take a break from listening for a while because I'm trying to read the same school books that my daughters are reading so I can help explain things. but I linked back in and started listening to a podcast the other day at random with my daughters in the car on the way home from a road trip. And it was so weird because I thought I kept recognizing the name. And it was the Raven Abaroa case. And I realized once I heard Raven that that is somebody I knew well and went to high school with.

I could not believe it. It blew my mind. And I could just barely keep the car on the road. I was so shocked. I had no idea any of that had how. And he was definitely the cool kid, the cute kid, the popular kid, the super excited kid at school. And it was just insane to hear that story. I had to pull over at the first restaurant and call some of my high school friends and say,

what the hell? Did you guys know this? And some of them had and some of them didn't. But it was so crazy. Anyway, that was my connection. Love you guys. It was kind of cool. We hear that a lot, that people have some type of connection to,

the case that we do, either, you know, directly or indirectly, but I always find it fascinating. Yeah, I do too. And I think the one thing that you always hear is just how differently the episode kind of hits. Yes. When somebody does have a connection, right? It's one thing to hear about, you know, a murder and all the nasty details of it and stuff like that. But when you know the person or knew the person or you know someone who's involved it's definitely going to hit differently there's just no doubt about it but thanks so much for the voicemail all right buddy that is it for another episode of true crime all the time so for mike and gibby stay safe and keep your own time ticking