True Crime All The Time - Lawrence Singleton

Episode Date: August 19, 2019

Lawrence Singleton committed his first documented major crime when he was in his fifties. Driving along one day he picked up a hitchhiker who he sexually assaulted and mutilated. His victim survived her ordeal and went on to become a victim's advocate. Singleton did a relatively small amount of time and then, after getting out, went on to murder.Join MIke and Gibby as they discuss the crimes committed by Singleton. His first victim's story is inspiring. Unfortunately, his next victim would not survive. Why does a man in his fifties decide to suddenly commit a particularly heinous act? And why does he then, after serving his sentence, decide to commit murder when he is in his late sixties?You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the website at truecrimeallthetime.com for all show related informationCredits:Writing/Research - Lana HiottSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 144 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in True Crime. Mike Gibson, Gibby. How are you? I'm doing good, man. How about you? I'm doing great. Yeah.

You and I have been doing quite a bit of recording. Yeah, we have. Did our weekly Patreon video. We actually just finished up a brand new episode of The Reviews Are In. Yeah. Episode two. And, you know, that's great. We've been getting a lot of good reviews.

about that, pardon the pun. A lot of the people that have listened to it, they really liked it. So that made us feel good. Episode two is worth listening. Shake weight. Episode two is going to be pretty good. We talked about a strip club in Arizona.

We talked about the shake weight. Yeah, good times. All right, we have some new Patreon shout-out. So let's go ahead and do those. We had Lori King jumped out at our highest level. Hey, Lori. Laura Lee Chamberlain. Hey, Chamberlone.

Carl Gekle. jumped out to our highest level. Hey, thanks, Carl. And he also happened to be the monthly Patreon merch winner for July. That Gekler. That Gekler. So, Carl's a cool dude, man. I was emailing back and forth with him.

He actually does some 3D-type printing stuff. Cool. So he's sending us something very cool for the studio. I can't wait to see what that is. Yeah, me neither. We had Aunt Welch. Hey, Aunt. Brandy Meyer.

What's going on, Brande? Carly. Tori Ploof. Ploof. Carmen Outlaw jumped out of our highest level What Carmen Outlaw is, but that sounds cool Carrie Countryman Hey, Kerry

Seth Seth Seth Stevenson jumped out of our highest level Hey Seth Debra Raustin The Raustin John Arrington jumped out To our highest level Arrington, that's a good name man

Yeah, we had Laura Botwood Hey, Batwood Kate Balls Over Balls Over man Jeanette Butler Hey Jeanette Laura Suarez And Madeline Dut

Hey thanks Madeline Dutie So we go back into the ball Gibbs. This week we selected Amy Flowers. Amy's a longtime supporter. And we appreciate all that longtime support. We appreciate the new support, all of it. Hey, thanks, Amy. We had some great PayPal support as well. We had Lena Jenkins. Hey, Lena. A. Travis. What's up, Travis? Simone Jones. Samo. Haley Kaki. And Lucas Edmonds. What's going on, Lucas? So we appreciate that as well. So, again, we talked about the reviews are in. We also have an episode out right now on TCAT Unsolved.

It's about Krista Helm, an actress back in the 70s. She was an actress, but she was really more of an aspiring actor. She had been in some things, but I think her career was yet to blossom. Yeah, she's more on the springboard trying to get there. Yeah, she was aspiring and she was killed in 1977. you know, this is a case that obviously remains unsolved because we did it on unsolved, but there's a lot of stuff going on in here. Again, one of those ones.

It just takes you down different avenues. Yep. So check that out. But I think that's it, Gibbs. We're ready to get into this episode of True Crime all the time. Are you ready? I'm ready, man. All right.

This week we're talking about Lawrence Singleton, also known as the Mad Chopper. That's a good name. I'm the mad chopper. This is a man who committed one of the most barbaric acts of rape and mutilation that I think I've ever come across. And that's saying a lot, Gibbs, I think, with the amount of research and the different cases that you and I look into. But this one is, it's extremely brutal.

But the girl that he perpetrated this rape and mutilation on, she lived. And her story is very inspiring. So we'll be talking. about that, you know, a lot as well. Then, not surprisingly, you know, after this guy is let out, he goes on to kill. So in talking about Lawrence Singleton, there is not a lot out there about his childhood. What is known is that he was born July 28th, 1927 in Tampa, Florida. It's been noted that he had an unsteady, dysfunctional family life. It was a big family. It was a big family. Lawrence had, I think, five brothers, two sisters. That seems to be the norm lately for you and I,

doing big families, man. Yeah, talking about people that came from big families. I think the dysfunctional family part is what I really want to focus on. I don't think that's a shocker. You know, in all of this research and all the things that you and I do, I think one of the things that we've learned is that family is extremely important. It doesn't mean that if you come from a dysfunctional home that you'll wind up being a killer, it doesn't mean that at all. Right. And also, we know that killers come from seemingly perfect families, maybe perfect looking on the

outside, but maybe even pretty perfect on the inside. And they still wind up killing. Yeah. But I don't think there's any doubt that a good family life for a child as they're growing up is very important. It helps. I don't know. I don't think anybody can dispute that. Lawrence's father worked for the Atlantic coastline railroad. And like I said, there just really isn't that much out there about his childhood. This story, you know, centers around his crimes, but I think even more importantly, his victims. By the time of his first known crime, Lawrence Singleton was 51 years. He was 51 years,

old. So if this really is his first ever crime, and you and I talk about this, is this just the one that they found out about? Or was there a whole, you know, series of things before? And I'm not talking about petty stuff, right? Everybody has a laundry list of little bitty things that they did that somebody could look at and say, ah, you shouldn't have done that. Right, right. I'm talking about crimes, crime crimes. He waited pretty late in life, right? 51 years old. He had been married. He had been married a couple of times by then. He had a 15-year-old daughter. Lawrence Singleton was a merchant Marine. He made a pretty good salary. Lived in an upper middle class neighborhood in a well-cared-for home in California. This guy was doing pretty good. Yeah, sounds like it. At 51 years old. The problem with

Lawrence Singleton was he was a heavy drinker. He did have a few arrests on his record for drunk and disorderly conduct, drunken driving, contributing to the delinquency of a minor. And technically, yeah, I get it. Those are crimes. But you know the crimes that I'm talking about. But here again, neighbors described him as a nice guy that would do anything for you. He was known to frequently offer his assistance to neighbors with home projects. Hey, if you want to build an addition, I'm there. I'm in. I'm in. I'm your guy. I'll be there for you. You're getting, you know, a load of mulch.

Let me know. Use my truck. Use my willbarrow. I'll drink a beer and supervise. It just seems like that is the case quite often, right? Mr. Nice Guy to the neighbors turns out to later be a real piece of duke. We've done quite a few cases like that. You don't want to be a real piece of duke, Gibbs.

It's not good to be a piece of anything, but dukees not good. That's why you don't have to worry about me. I don't know many of my neighbors. And I don't think any of them would be on the news if I did something saying, oh, he was such a nice guy. You would never offer your truck up to anybody, by the way. Hell no. If anything, they would be saying, we don't really know who this guy is. We never talked to him.

Now, I actually had some new neighbors move in within the last couple weeks. Yeah. I walked over. I talked to them. These are the neighbors that I've been talking about for years, the old neighbors who sold the house who I waived at for literally 15 years. Okay. They wouldn't wave back. They wouldn't reply to a hello.

I got some new neighbors now. Much friendly. I've already talked to them more in the last two weeks than I talked to my other neighbors in 15 years. What'd you do? Go over there and say, hey, can you not cut your grass between this time and that time? That's when we record and we don't want to hear it in the background. No, I actually just walked over and said, hey, glad to have you in the neighborhood. You know, if you need anything, let me know, tools.

The guy was like, dude, I got a lot of tools. I was like, really, that's what I was checking on to see how many tools you had in case I needed to borrow tools. I didn't tell him that. And you said, by the way, do you like podcasts? I actually didn't, man. It never comes up. I don't talk about it. I mean, obviously, if somebody asks me what I do, I'll tell them.

But I'm not like you. I don't walk into the bar and say, hey, Hey, does anybody know who I am? Do you recognize me? It's Gibby. I don't do that. You're like Norm from Cheers. It's Gibby.

Yeah, but you're walking on your neighbors with your T-Cat shirt, your T-Cat hat, your T-Cat sweatpants. You've even got gym shoes that say T-Cat on the side. I do not. You're rolling in like that, so, you know. So we're focusing in on September 29th, 1978. 15-year-old Mary Bell Vinson was hitchhiking for a ride. we've talked about it countless times one of the most dangerous activities it seems like back in the

1970s i would say not on the same level as you know being a sex worker but i mean how many cases have we done centered around hitchhiking pretty close to the number that we've done centered around sex workers yeah a lot again it was just so many people that seem to turn to hitchhiking in order to get where they needed to go back then. Mary was in Berkeley, California. She had come from Las Vegas after her parents divorced. So number one, this was a very stressful period in Mary's life. She had just visited with her uncle who lived near Santa Cruz and she was headed to her grandfather's house in Corona, California, about six hours away. But she would never make it there. Mary was described as, a rebellious team. She has even said that herself. In later interviews, you know, like I said,

it was a rough time for her. Her parents were going through her divorce, you know, 14, 15 years old. She was rambunctious, rebellious, running away, living on her own, all types of stuff. But she did have a dream of becoming a dancer. Just like you did. I did have a dream of dancing in the ballet. that dream was shattered. I think you can still pull it off. At this point, not a chance. I don't mean on a big,

I mean on like the little community stage. Oh, well, I could pull it off my basement. If that's what you're talking about. But when you're talking about hitchhiking, this was something that Mary did frequently.

She wasn't even 16 yet. So even if she had a car or wanted to drive, she legally couldn't. So she relied on the kindness of strangers all the time to give her rides to places that she needed to go. And she was traveling, right? Quite a bit from Las Vegas into the neighboring state of California and all around California.

The problem is she would meet Lawrence Singleton. And Lawrence later told a psychiatrist that he saw Mary Vincent while stopped at a red light. He later told some reporters that, quote, the light was red. If it was green, I wouldn't have got in trouble. Think about that. Oh, yeah. Now, I don't know how honest he's being, but maybe he is saying that just for the fact that that light was red. I happened to see this person.

And at some point in my head, bad things started to formulate. light. If that light is green, I put my foot on the gas pedal. I drive. I never see her. I never think about it. That's what he's saying. Now, take it however you want. Right. I get it, man. She was hypnotizing to him. But I wonder how truthful it is. So he would not have seen Mary, but you're telling me at the next red light or at a red light the next day, the next week, the next month, it wouldn't have happened. I just think it's a strange. thing to say because if you're having those thoughts or you're capable of what we're about ready to talk about, I feel like it was going to happen. Now, it wouldn't have happened with Mary Vincent. I get that part. So he pulled up to Mary in his blue van and he offered her a ride. But he said something kind of strange. He said, you know what? There's only room for one person.

That's kind of strange when you're driving a van. A little bit. Something built to carry quite a few people. And I guess there were a number of other hitchhikers standing around that also needed a ride. And Mary herself would later say that, you know, these people, they warned her. Do not accept this ride because of this. There's only room for one person's statement. That line to them seemed very sketchy. And you get that, right? Oh, yeah. But she's only 15 years old. So you have to keep that in mind. These people might have been older, they might have been wiser, whatever the case. Mary ignored the warnings and she got into the van. She needed that right.

She later said that Lawrence Singleton was very grandfatherly, she called it, in the beginning, even, you know, to the extent that he was nice. He was, he was polite to her. He told her that he was on his way to Reno, but that he was more than willing to take her to Corona, which is a little strange when you look at the map, it's not exactly the route you would take if you were headed to Reno. It's definitely out of the way. No one would ever take this route. No, you are going out of your way if you're traveling this route. You're essentially going way past the point where, you know, you would make the directional change to go to Reno.

You're going way past it. You're not exactly doubling back, but you, you know, you are to an extent. But again, I go back to the to the fact that this is a 15 year old girl. I don't know that all of those thoughts are going through her mind. Now, during this whole trip, Lawrence Singleton is drinking from a plastic milk jug filled with liquor. A milk jug. Who drinks liquor out of a milk jug? There's many people who drink liquor out of a milk jug. Oh, is there? Yeah. I did not know that. Well, liquor out of the milk jug, man. Home-made liquor. I'm learning something. I don't know, Gives, maybe you and I hang around in different circles because my friends don't drink liquor from milk jugs. You seem to know a lot of people that drink liquor from milk jugs, me not so much.

Well, yeah, we do run with a different crowd. I don't know what that says about either of us. I think what it says about Lawrence Singleton was he was a raging alcoholic. You're drinking a gallon container full of liquor. While you're driving, let's not forget that. This is a six-hour trip. Yeah. So do you need a gallon's worth of liquor for a six-hour trip? Depends on how thirsty you are.

I'm thinking hours three, four, five, six are going to get very hairy. Yeah. On that ride. Probably not the best thing to do. But we don't know because they're never going to make it that far. At a certain point, they stopped at a gas station. Singleton bought Mary a Coke. Seems like a nice gesture, right?

At that point, she probably thought, you know what, this, this, a nice guy. He's an older guy. Looks like he's maybe in his early 50s. He's been nice. He bought me a Coke. What do I have to worry about? Maybe all the initial fears and trepidation by this point have gone away. Right. And I don't know. I'm speculating on a lot of this stuff. But they continued their journey. And at some point, Singleton said that he had to go to the bathroom. So he pulled the van over. I mean, let's face it, the guy has been drinking liquor from a milk jug all day. At some point, you are going to have to let that out. So they're on the side of the road outside of the van.

And from Mary's account, she bent down to tie her shoe. And that's when Lawrence Singleton struck. He hit Mary with his fists. Then he threw her into the van and bound her hands. Now, what happens next is, extremely brutal. Singleton raped Mary several times while threatening to kill her. He also made her drink from his plastic milk jug. So I didn't want to give it away, but I think there was an ulterior motive for having a full milk jug worth of liquor. Yeah, such a large volume. Yes. He made her drink quite a bit of it. And he basically told her his plan. He said he wanted to be. He wanted to be a large volume. He said, he wanted to be a large volume. He was. He was, he made her. He was a large volume. He was. He made her. He made her. He made her drink quite a lot. He said, he was he was he was he was he was he was he. He said, he to get her so drunk that she would pass out so that she would have no idea where she was when he finally let her go. He told her all of this. And eventually Mary did pass out. She later recounted

that the next thing she remembered was being pulled from the van and being told by Singleton that he was going to set her free. She said that he began to cut the ropes off of her hands when all of a sudden Gibbs, Mary Vincent saw an axe or a hatchet, some type of, you know, that instrument start to come down. I think what he did Gibbs is he was acting like he was going to use this axe to cut the ropes, but then he grabbed her left hand and just brought the axe down. Right on it. He brought it down three times on her left arm, about four inches of below the elbow. Yeah, it's brutal, man.

Right on the forearm. While this was happening, Mary said that, you know, she was struggling to try to grab onto that axe. But at the same time, Singleton is telling her that he's going to set her free. So bizarre. Yeah, it's got messed up. I'm going to let you go after I do this. But at the same time, I'm trying to chop your arms off. He then took the axe and brought it down four times on her right arm.

about two to three inches below the elbow. And again, this whole time, he is telling Mary that he's going to set her free. I just, I can't imagine this young girl hearing those words come out of this guy's mouth as both of her arms are being severed from her body. Yeah, so strange, man. And she later recounted that she was holding on to one of his arms at one point and then Gibbs all of a sudden, she realized that her arm was detached from her body. And Lawrence Singleton was trying to shake it loose. Like it was, it was holding on to his arm. Oh, man. And she is watching this.

That's freaky. Seeing it. That's freaky. It's unimaginable. It really is the stuff of nightmares. I mean, these are the type of nightmares that people have. And my wife will wake up. You know, we'll be talking in the morning. She'll recount some nightmare she had. And I'll just like, ah, that's so, you know, that's so out there. That could never happen. This is that kind of nightmare. It's happening.

I want to play a clip of Mary from the John Walsh television show. When I was begging for my life asking him to set me free, and he replied, you want to be set free? I'll set you free. And he lifted up a hatchet. And that's when I tried fighting him off and was kicking and screaming. But I was realizing, wait a minute, I'm still holding onto his hand, but I'm laying on the ground. And that's when I realized that he had chopped off my left arm.

Everybody knows John Walsh, right? Kind of a historic figure in the world of true crime. I actually do not remember whatever this show was that he had. It appeared to be some type of maybe a daytime show. It sounded like it. Yeah. I mean, I remember him from America's Most Wanted, you know, some of the other shows that he's done about crime.

This appeared to be more of like a Dr. Phil type show. I just don't remember it. But to listen to her talk about her experience. It's chilling. What happened next was that Singleton picked up Mary's body and threw her over the guardrail. And she tumbled down. into this kind of concrete culvert. What Mary would later say is that she pretended to be dead.

But even while she was doing that, she could hear Singleton yelling down the hill to her that she was free, that he had set her free. Now you can go. You're free. You're free. So Mary is free from Lawrence Singleton, but her nightmare is far from over.

Throughout the night, She's bleeding profusely. I mean, she is really struggling to survive. It's around 8 a.m. the next morning that Mary regained consciousness. This is really amazing, Gibbs, if you think about it. You know she suffered a massive amount of blood loss after, you know, both her arms were cut off. But somehow she managed to find the strength to climb up that hill or whatever it was. that embankment, get back to the edge of Interstate 5, and she's running, you know,

towards the road completely nude. But it was reported that she had both of her arms up in the air, which is extremely smart, right? She's trying to prevent more blood loss. Yeah. Well, that's really smart. For a 15-year-old girl. To know to do that, to keep your hand, you know, keep, I was going to say hands, but keep your

arms elevate it. Yeah, very smart. Yeah, very smart. So there is one car that sees Mary. And this, this had to have been a sight. This is a naked 15 year old girl whose arms have been severed. These people were terrified. And unfortunately, they didn't stop for her. They actually ended up turning around and driving the other way, back the way they came. And that had to have been a huge blow for her. Oh, it had to be. I can't imagine, you know, you think finally help. From what I understand, this is, there wasn't traffic like nonstop. Right. Right. There would be cars that would come intermittently.

But those people are probably thinking, you know, is there somebody with a chainsaw going to come running out? What's going on? Yeah, I don't know what they were thinking, but man, you hate to see that. You know, I think you and I have talked about I don't stop to help a lot of people because I sometimes think, well, it could be a trap, right? Somebody's on the side of the road. They're acting like they have a flat tire. In reality, they just want you to stop. They're going to carjack you. They're going to kill you. They're going to do whatever. But I think you know when a naked 15 year old girl is running down the road with her arm severed, that's not a ploy to try to get to try to trap you into a compromise situation. Nobody's going to go to that link. No, that's where you. You're

you should stop, get her and take her where she needs it. Yeah, that's a person that truly, truly needs help. Luckily, a second vehicle, this is a pickup truck, did stop. And it was a young couple that was driving the truck. And this is how one of them described what they saw that day. They said from a distance of about 150 yards, they thought she was wearing a bikini. Then, you know, as she got closer, they saw that she wasn't wearing any clothes. and then they had the shock of seeing that she had no hands.

They didn't know what to do. And I think a lot of people in that situation would have that same type of thought. Maybe not let's turn around and get the hell out of here, but what do I do? I don't know how to fix this situation. But lucky for Mary, this couple pulled over. They got Mary into the front seat and they drove to find a phone so they could call the police, right? They can't help this girl other than calling someone who can really help them. Right.

That's the way that they can help. The man in the car later described Mary's actions while they were driving. And she really didn't act the way that, at least in my mind, I would think a 15-year-old girl would act. He said she wasn't screaming in pain. He said she really wasn't even crying. She was just moaning. And obviously, she was in pain. he thought she was in shock and she probably was,

but he didn't think that she really realized Gibbs that she had lost both her hand. Yeah. I mean, obviously she knew something was wrong because I guess Gibbs when he asked her what happened, she said that she was raped. She didn't talk about her hands at all. Well, maybe she was just so traumatized by the sexual assault,

you know, things going on. I mean, yeah, she probably was traumatized. She was in shock. I don't know what was going through her mind, but at least to this guy, this, the man in this couple who picked her up, he said she didn't act as though she had a full understanding that both her hands were gone. That's some very serious shock going on there. Oh, not only that it's happened. The fact that it happened, and then you had to spend an entire night on your own dealing with this, right? It's one thing for it to happen and then somebody to be there and you get help immediately. She was on her own for quite a while.

I read somewhere Gibbs that for weeks after this attack happened, blood spatter could be seen on the culvert walls. Yeah. So, you know, obviously she lost a lot of blood. Oh, for sure. When she was in this culvert overnight, passed out, and it was there for a while. Now, Lawrence Singleton wasn't arrested until October 9. So it took them a couple of weeks. I think a lot of this had to do with the fact that, you know, Mary had to recuperate.

She had to remember some of the details of what happened. Maybe she was suppressing some of it. I don't know. Sure. it's a lot of trauma to go through like you said detectives ended up using forensic hypnosis to help mary remember some of the details so that they could track down the person that did this and through this they were able to generate a police sketch that helped identify singleton so they arrest him and once they had him in the interview room he did what many do right he

blamed it on someone else. So Lawrence said that two other men were involved. They made him drink a glass of 190 proof ever clear. I got some of that in my cupboard mixed with seven up. This is all done at gunpoint. Everclear is no joke. Oh no. That's what we used to take to the parties back in the day. Yeah. And it did not take much. No. And I do have a fifth of it. I believe you. Yeah. I believe I actually didn't even know they still made it. Yeah, I got it just in case you stop over. Oh, okay. Yeah.

But, you know, you mix that with something that tastes pretty good? Yeah, I just don't mix it with your Kool-Aid and you just wouldn't know. And then bad things ensue? Yeah, that's, you know, that's when the score gets evened. Don't expect me to be over for a while. Let's just put it that way. You never do anyway, so, you know. Well, it's there just in case.

Now, the one thing that, that Singleton did admit to was the fact that he had sex with Mary. But he denied cutting off her, her hands, her arms. Why do you think that is? Yeah, you know, I'm just wondering why he thought he couldn't go ahead and say he did that too. I mean, you're claiming. My assumption is, and I actually didn't find this, but my assumption is that he most likely left evidence in the form of semen. And he figured that they would somehow tie that back to him. So better to go ahead and admit that he had sexual intercourse with Mary and deny all the other stuff. Well, that makes sense, you know, why he would have come forward, you know, because he knew eventually he would get caught. So he's playing kind of the good guy here.

I want to tell you that I did do this. Yeah, I can't think of any other reason to admit to that because he knows it's wrong. She's underage. right it's not like you're saying this was consensual i'm going to walk away you're still admitting to the fact that you had sex with a 15 year old girl but you're trying to distance yourself from what you consider the more heinous of the two acts i guess yeah so i'm the only thing i can think of now the evidence against him was pretty strong they found her cigarettes and burnt clothing in his possession, and not to mention the fact that you have the victim, Mary Vincent, to testify

to everything that this man did to her. That's going to be pretty powerful to a jury Gibbs when, you know, 15, 16 year old Mary Vincent is sitting on the stand with missing her arms and hands, you know, up, up to a point close to her elbows. You're not going to get anything more compelling. No. Than her telling her own story. No. And she's saying, this guy raped me and he cut off both of my hands, moms. I don't know.

Any defense attorney out there that could twist that around, you know, at this point, you know, she gets up on the stand, tells her story. Case over. Well, I think if you're going with the two gunmen made me drink ever clear defense, that's not going to fly. No. But yet I still had, you know, sex with her. Right. None of it is, is adding up. And it didn't.

In March of 1979, a San Diego jury found Singleton guilty of kidnapping, simple mayhem, which is something we don't talk about a lot, but it's actually cutting off a body part. I think technically it's called depriving someone of a body part. Right. He was also found guilty. of attempted murder, forcible rape, sodomy, enforced oral copulation. Really? So, you know, we didn't go into all the details, but you can from those convictions,

figure out that this was an extremely brutal rape. But because of the lenient laws at the time, the court was only able to sentence singleton to 14 years. That's the max that they could give them. That's the max. That was all they had in their power to do. So it was 10 years for attempted murder, 1.3 years for rape. So that's the max on the rape.

There's 1.3 years. That's terrible. Two years for oral copulation and one year for sodomy. So 1.5. 1.3 years for rape. But two for oral copulation. I didn't get that either. Okay.

I didn't understand any of that. I think what it shows is that in the 1970s, how little emphasis the law placed on sexual crimes against women. 1.3 years? Yeah, it's not saying much. That's ridiculous. Oh, it is. I mean, like I said, it's just, it's not, it's not saying much about the crime. It's like, yeah, sorry it happened to you.

We're putting them away for a year. My thought is in 1979, you would in a lot of cases maybe get more than that for car theft. I know for a fact you'd get more than that for armed robbery. Way more. I would think. Well, you said you know for a fact. No, okay. I said that.

I don't know for a fact. I was like, hey. I don't know the laws of 1970, California up top of my head. I'm just, I'm thinking out loud and none of it makes any sense. None of those numbers that he got makes any sense. No. So Singleton was sent to San Quentin. And you know, I'm still getting emails about Johnny Cash.

Are you? Yeah. Folsom. Singing at Folsom or San Quentin. Some people email me and say he never sang here or there, one of the other. And the fact is he sang at both places. Yeah. Put out a record where he sang at Folsom.

And I think the next year he put out one at San Quince. San Quentin. It was either either that or the other way around. So don't send me those emails no more because Which one had the dirty water? I don't I don't know. You know all that stuff. Now in a psychiatric report from 1979. This was in San Quentin, I think. It was written that Singleton called Mary Vincent derogatory names. He also apparently gives minimized her injuries saying that her forearm stumps were longer than everybody was saying and reporting that they were. Basically saying, you know, see, Doc, I'm not such a bad guy. I left her with longer stumps than what the paper is saying.

Yeah. She has more than what people averaged she had. I mean, what kind of logic is going through your head when you think you're trying, you're scoring points by pointing that out. When you're the one that caused these horrific injuries in the first place, Again, why do I even try to figure out what these people are thinking? It makes no sense. You can't ever figure that out.

He was diagnosed at that time with paranoid personality, severe, with schizoid features. But now you're going to get even more upset, right? Pretty lenient sentence to begin with, I think in both of our eyes, Singleton earned 225 days credit for time that, he spent in jail before the trial. I don't have any problem with that. Everybody gets that. Sure. You get it. You were incarcerated. You get time for that. But then he got six months credit for every six months that he worked as a teacher's aide at the prison. You're essentially earning a credit for every day you work. Yeah. So for this unbelievably heinous crime. And I don't think anybody

disputes the fact that it was. He ended up, getting out of prison in eight years, just a little bit over half of his sentence. Eight years for raping and chopping off the arms of a 15-year-old girl. It's not enough, man. I think it's ridiculous any way you look at it. It doesn't seem like they took the psychiatric report into account at all. And maybe that wasn't something they could do, right? this is your max sentence.

It's on the books that you get a day for every day you work and boom, you're out. That's the way the law is written. I don't know. That's the way it's done. But there was another psychologist report from 1986 that said, Lawrence Singleton is so out of touch with his hostility and his anger that he is an elevated threat to others' safety, both inside and outside prison. So we've got that as well, but let's go ahead and let him out. Now, there was one good

thing that happened because people were outraged. Oh, I'm an outraged. Yeah, well, you are. But I mean, at the time when he was released, people in California were outraged. If you go back and you look at the papers from that time frame, I mean, the op-eds, the articles written about it, people were not happy. So some laws were changed because of all of this outrage. The singleton bill was passed and it allowed for a life sentence for aggravated mayhem. So if he would have done the same thing after his own bill had passed, he could have received a life sentence. Right. There were other changes to laws regarding people who work in prison.

Basically they minimized, I think, the amount of good times. that a prisoner could earn while being incarcerated. I get it. You want prisoners to be good. You want to rehabilitate them. But, you know, one day credit for every day worked. That is a lot. Pretty heavy.

Pretty heavy on the credit range. We don't get a day off for every day we work. Be nice if you did, right? So you earn one vacation day for every day you work. That'd be beautiful, man. and you just build it up. Basically, you're out half the year. Yeah.

Now, I say that, and what's the first thing that goes to your mind? That's ridiculous, right? I'm actually thinking... You love it, but... I'm also thinking, like, Norway, Sweden. They have, like, really long vacation. Not even they have that long. Yeah.

You know, not even Lottie has that much time. Lottie and her time. But you think about, I say, I make a statement like that, and you think, well, that's ridiculous. Nobody should get a day off for every day you work. Right. You as a manager, how the hell would you even plan your staffing? Oh.

It'd be a nightmare. Yeah. Oh, my goodness, man. So who thought back in the day that it was a good idea to give prisoners a one-for-one thing like that? Just wonder, who makes all these decisions? That's how we'll get them back out sooner. Let's give them a...

I don't know, man. And there's only so much you can explain by saying, well, that was the 70s. that explanation only goes so far well you know they think some of the people that were for it would say you're rewarding good behavior they're they're coming they're doing the task at hand as they are asked i get that so we reward them with a one day less than their sentence i get that i get that i get the reward system it's it's to me it's just way too much it's like every time Tommy says thank you i give him a cookie Tommy doesn't need a cookie every time he says thank you.

He maybe gets one cookie for every day that he does what he's supposed to do. Not every time. I don't know if I'm not making the correlation perfectly the way I want to. No, but that's like, you know, people go through these phases. Companies go through these phases. We're supposed to recognize people, you know, recognize them. Forced recognition. Yeah.

You know, like, I mean, hey, I want to recognize you for doing something that you're supposed to be doing anyway as part of your job that you're getting paid for. Yeah. To me, it seems a little strange. You know, if you showed up and did your job the day, thank you, here's your check. Outside of that, then maybe. That's the reward. Yeah. Mary later won a $2.56 million dollar civil suit against Lawrence Singleton, but the man had no money. Yeah, that's the tough thing, man. You see some of these great civil suits that come through. It's more of a moral win, right? It is. We just talked about it on. on our Patreon episode that we just recorded. You know, she tried to collect, but there was nothing

to collect. So in September of 88, you know, she gave up her efforts to collect anything from him. But I think it is that type of victory. You just, you have somebody else saying what this man did was, was wrong. Yeah. And he should pay for it in this other way as well. But I talked about the outrage in California. It was real, right? The people in California, they didn't want to have. And he was wrong. And he didn't want to have anything to do with Singleton after he got out of prison. They didn't even want him anywhere in the state. They just said, nope, you can't stay here, which doesn't sound like California. Today, they seem very welcoming, at least in the commercials that say come on over here,

come out to California. But I don't blame him, right? This is a bad guy. He did a horrible thing. He actually ended up living in a trailer on the grounds of. of San Quentin during his one year parole, basically because the California penal system, they couldn't guarantee his safety anywhere off prison grounds. Somebody was going to kill him.

They were going to do something to him. So he spent an extra year at San Quentin. Now he wasn't under locking key. He was in a trailer. He was on the property. Yeah, he was also on the property. The property. I don't know what the property is.

The property. So after the one year parole, he moved home to the state of Florida to be closer to his family. And as part of his legal obligations, he had to register with, you know, the parole board, get a license. So when he did all of this, my feeling Gibbs is he really didn't have everything sorted out, right? He had just got to Florida. He was probably staying with family. well, he used his brother's address. Well, it'd be the only address that he knew at the time to use.

Yeah, I think that was, I don't know if he was staying with his brother. Maybe he was for a time. You know, there really was no follow-up with Lawrence Singleton as far as being, you know, on parole. You know, at that point, he was basically a free man. He didn't have to check in. There really wasn't much he had to do. It wasn't until the sexual predator law came. into effect in 95 that previous offenders had to be monitored. And even when that came into effect,

it only applied to crimes after that date. So his crime happened, you know, years and years before. Yeah. So it meant that it didn't really cover him. Moot point for him. There was a story about a car dealer offering this guy $5,000 if he would leave the state of Florida. And I mentioned him using his brother's address. And the reason I wanted to is because somebody detonated a homemade bomb at his brother's house. Now, luckily, nobody was injured. I don't even think Lawrence Singleton was staying there, but it was because he had used his brother's address. It just tells you how hated he was. Oh, my gosh. Obviously, there are a large number of people that did not want this man living in the state of Florida either. But he was there to stay. He wasn't going to be driven out.

of Florida, he would spend the rest of his life in Florida from 1990 to 1997. So, you know, about seven years, he had some kind of a strange life. Strange cat all the way around. Yeah, for those seven years especially. He kept getting arrested for, like, petty larceny. He had a number of scrapes with the law. I like the shoplift a lot, too. Yeah, he just would walk into stores and steal stupid little stuff.

you know, it didn't amount to much, but he spent time in jail. He spent some time in prison. Apparently, he went to prison for time for stealing a $3 hat from Walmart. That's pretty bad, man. Well, you know, so a $3 hat at Walmart, that's pretty bad. Yeah. Their prices, you know, they cut their prices already. So you're going to get something for $3.

I don't know what kind of hat that's going to be. He got more than he bargained for that three bucks. Yeah, he didn't pay. So I think he got sentenced to like two years. Almost a, almost a year for every dollar that the hat was worth. And I think it, you know, it stemmed more, not so much from the $3 hat. It stemmed from the fact that when the police questioned him, he gave them a false name. That's what really caused the longer prison sentence.

But then we get up to 1997. Lawrence Singleton is 69 years old. He's a raging alcoholic that some neighbors said Gibbs that he drank two gallons of vodka a day. Now, that's crazy amount of vodka. I don't even think that's possible. I don't know either. I mean, I... That's like 10 bottles of vodka.

I knew somebody could probably drink a gallon a day and that's not good. So I can't imagine two of those throughout the whole day, man. You read that and your mind. can't process it as though, I mean, it doesn't seem like it's humanly possible. That seems like it would kill an elephant, right, that much vodka. Well, I mean, you're just drunk all day, all night and do it again in, you know, in the morning. But they would later find a bunch of vodka bottles in his home.

So again, whether he actually drank that much or not, the fact is he drank a lot. Yeah. That part's true. It wasn't two gallons a day. He was still, you know. He was drinking bottles. Yeah, for sure. I have some buddies that like to drink vodka, maybe even a bottle.

Yeah, two gallons is a... Ten bottles. That equates to about ten full bottles. Yeah. I don't think you'd be able to... Ten fifths? Man. What is a fifth, seven hundred and fifty milliliters?

Yeah. Yeah. So I think the mass says it would be about ten bottles. Yeah. I don't think that's possible. Somebody's going to write in and say they know somebody that drinks that. Yeah, it's probably is. I mean, that's two.

jugs, man. You're just walking around with one in each fist drinking a milk jug. I don't know how long you'd stay alive, you know, over time. It's got to do some damage to your internal. Yeah, and he's no spring chicken. I mean, 69 years old. Yeah. Drinking that much vodka. Probably pissing blood at that point, too. Well, and I also saw some reports that, you know, he was getting that the bulbous nose. Have you ever seen that person that night in, night out, sits at the bar, drinks all night long? eventually they get that nose. Yeah, they do. I don't know the official medical term for it.

Yeah. But I've seen drinkers get like, just like a red. Rudolph knows, right? Yeah, like a red bulbous. Sometimes it's got bumps on it. It's not a good look. I can tell you that. No.

That's what happens when you're not getting any Calvin Klein runway model invitations with that. Well, this is to say that they probably, that wasn't going to happen anyway. So, I mean, let's not go too extreme there. but on February 1st of that year, Singleton was arrested again for shoplifting. And, you know, after he was processed, he went home to his place in Orient Park. He lived about five miles outside of Tampa. So really probably a suburb right of Tampa.

Sure. And he tried to take his life. He wrote a suicide note that said, I hope I find peace. And he went out into his driveway. he got into his van and he hooked a hose to the exhaust pipe to pump carbon monoxide into the van. But I guess there were like five or six people, neighbors outside watching him. They were trying to figure out what this guy was doing. It's he rigging up over there.

And this went on for a while because it wasn't working. He kept getting in and out, readjusting things. Well, the third time he climbed back into the van, it must have worked because after some time, the window started to fog up. And again, these people are standing there watching him, trying to figure out what's going on. Right. I think one of them finally figured it out, goes over, opens up the door. They find him, you know, passed out.

The guy got Singleton out of the van and called 911. So they took him to a psychics. psychiatric care center for evaluation. And he was in there for maybe eight, nine days. But they released him. Sure. I believe that. They released him against pleas from his family. His family was begging them to involuntarily commit him. But it didn't happen. And on February 19th, it's about nine days after being released, Singleton picked up a sex worker named, named Roxanne Hayes. Roxanne was 31 years old.

She was well known in the area for being a sex worker, had been for about a decade. Many people that knew her talked about her in glowing terms, talked about how much she loved her children. They said that she did what she did to make sure she provided for her children. Well, of course, she did what she had to do. You know, that's a, you know,

you can say what you want, that's a good mom putting your kids in front of everything. So she made sure if there's food on the table. I agree with you. I agree with you. I mean, I don't personally like the lifestyle. No. But there are people out there doing far worse things. Yeah. That are far worse mothers, if you think about it. She did what she needed to do. Even the police Gibbs said about Roxanne because they knew her. had arrested her over a hundred times. They said they knew why she was out there. And for her, it was all about her kids. She wasn't out there to buy fancy clothes. She wasn't out there to, you know, for jewelry. It wasn't it. She was out there to put food on the table and clothes on her,

on her kids back. Neighbors witnessed the pair entering Singleton's home together around 3.30 p.m. But other than that, they said there wasn't anything out of the ordinary. They weren't arguing. They weren't fighting. There was nothing that made, you know, neighbors think that, oh, something bad's going on here. Right. A man named Robert Hitson and his uncle Robert Music, they were hired by Lawrence Singleton to paint the interior of his house. And it was around 5, 5.30 that they got to his house to do some touch.

up painting. When they got there, they noticed that his white Dodge van was parked in the driveway with the back door open. Robert Hitson went up to the carport door and he heard some moaning. So he later said he figured this guy was having sex. Now, why that's the first thing he thought of. I don't know. This guy's, this guy's 69 years old, but, you know, maybe he's still getting him a little something. Something, something. Some, something. Some, something. Can you ever be too old? No. I don't know because I haven't reached that age yet.

But that's what this guy thought. But he knocked on the door anyway. And he kind of yelled in. He's like, hey, it's me. I'm coming in, right? Letting everybody know. I'm here. You know, take care of yourself, zip up.

Do whatever you got to do, but I'm coming in. Okay. He heard some muffled cries for help. And he went to the dining room. He saw a bunch of prescription pill bottles spilled out on the counter. He said the whole place smelled like alcohol, which it would if you drink two gallons of vodka a day. Exactly. I think you could literally set your mouth on fire. I think you probably could. You wouldn't be able to smoke, right? Or is that not high enough proof probably? No,

I think you still smoke. That's not high enough to set on fire. No. It's not ever clear. I'm telling you, I got a bottle with my cabinet. Do you think I don't believe you? I absolutely believe you. I do think you believe me. I think you have things in your house that would astonish us much more than a bottle of Everker. Let's put it that way. Yeah, that's probably true. And even Robert Hitson would later tell authorities that every time he was at this guy's

house, Lawrence Singleton was hammered. So Hittson continued through the house. He got to the living room. And this is when he saw Singleton bent over. he was between the legs of a woman who was lying on the couch. He also noticed that this woman had some blood on her, specifically on like her thigh area. Singleton realized that this guy was there.

He stood up. He looked at Hitson for a moment, but then it was almost like he looked past him. He didn't say a word. And then he just knelt back down and resumed doing whatever he had been doing. Okay. Imagine this guy standing there watching this thinking, I don't know what the hell is going on, but I don't, something's not right here. So he ran outside.

He told his uncle what he saw. And both of them, I think, started to, I don't want to say panic, but I think they were worried. One of them got a shovel. The other one got a broom. So I don't think you get those type of things unless you think, you know, the shit's about ready to hit the fan. Exactly. They head to the front of the house. And they look through the window.

They see a woman sitting on the couch and they see Singleton standing up. He's like bent over with his hands around her neck. So at this point, they know, right? It went from something's not right to something really bad has happened. Exactly. Hitson kicks in the door. And he can hear this woman trying to plead for help. At this point, Lawrence Singleton looked over his shirt.

shoulder and he told Roxanne to shut up. And then he hit her three times with his right hand, his fist, hit her in the head, the chest and the neck. These men said that the sounds that these hits made were bone crushing. It's like Tyson hitting somebody. You know, this guy might have been 69 years old, but apparently he was still very powerful. These guys run out of the house and they head to the gas station to call 911. This is documented to be around 5.51 p.m. The court records indicate that the 911 operator request the units for a domestic disturbance call. An officer hears it.

He takes it, right? Right. But he was already on another call. So he finishes up what he was already doing and then he heads to single. Hilton's house. He doesn't get there until about 6.23 p.m. So he's a little more and a half hour late. Yeah.

And you have to wonder why, right? Depends on what was relayed to the 911 operator, how the operator took it, and then related out to units, right? Domestic disturbance versus a person is trying to murder another person. I just, I don't know how it was related. So I can't really say who or if anyone made him a mistake. stake in this whole thing. Right. So this officer approaches the house and he knocks on the door. Singleton answers the door. He has on an unbuttoned shirt. He's wearing a pair of shorts with the fly

open. That's the way I wear mine. It's the way I like to answer the door, especially if I know the police are showing up. Fly open, man. I like to go Marty McFly. This officer probably thought that was pretty strange. But what really caught him was the fact that Singleton had a bunch of cuts on his chest and there was blood. Officers don't tend to take that lightly, especially when they've been called out on a domestic. And they sure wouldn't if they thought somebody was trying to kill somebody. Lawrence Singleton tried to smooth this over, right? He said that he and his lady friend had, you know, small fight. It was a spat.

She was inside. Everything was okay. So you know what, officer? You can leave. We're good here. I'm going to have no trouble from me. There's nothing to see. Please disperse.

No trouble from me. But the officer wasn't buying it. He said that Singleton was very nervous. He was, you know, bouncing, moving side. decide he was babbling. He was a little jittery. Yeah. You know, some people have asked the question, you know, is that adrenaline?

Is that an adrenaline rush from having just committed? What really Gibbs is thought to have been his first and only murder. Now, whether that's true or not, we don't know. No, we don't. But. And none of us knows, allegedly, what that feeling is like. I know for a fact, I don't know. Yeah, I know you don't know.

So the officer is questioning this guy. How did you get the cuts on the chest? And Singleton comes up with something. He has to, right? He's got to try to explain this. Sure he does. And he goes to the turnip defense. You know what?

I was chopping up some turnips. Some of that juice got on my chest. And then I was trying to use a knife to get the juice off. And, you know, cut myself. Because I like to use a knife to scrape off liquids. Yeah. For my chest. You do it.

Quite often. I do. Yeah. I like to show you. I don't want to see that. I know you don't. I don't want to see anything. That's partly why I like to show you.

But it's such a strange thing to say, right? And I guess heat of the moment, it's not like you've said around probably and rehearsed what you're going to say, but I guess that's the best he could come up with. Yeah, it's definitely strange, very strange. I don't eat turnip, so. No? No. I'm not a turnip guy. I don't have a problem with him.

I don't have a problem with him. I don't know. all, but if they're cooked and with a pot roast or something. You don't have a problem with them or you like them. Oh, a problem with them. I'll eat them. Those are two different things to me. I don't have a problem with squirrels.

Well, I'm not going to eat a squirrel. Now, I've got a problem with squirrels. I'll tell you right now. Don't get into your squirrel talk. That's probably a bad analogy. But for me, I only eat things that I like. I don't put up with things for lack, for lack of a better time. term. I mean, they're not, I mean, it's just kind of tastes like a potato onion thing, you know,

potato and onion got together, had a baby, turnip. Then why can't I just eat potatoes and onions? I like those. You can, but some people grow turnips and they put them in their food and you're like, like when I come here and you guys serve me dinner, maybe I don't like ground beef, but I'm going to eat it because it's in the enchilada or burrito that you made. And it's free. And it's free. And you, so you will eat it. And I will eat it. And I actually like ground beef. So I know you do. I don't know why you're using that. But getting back to Singleton, right, using this whole turn up kind of defense theory for to explain why he's got these cuts. I don't think the officer's buying it. But the phone rings in Lawrence's home. And he walks over and he answers it.

The officer follows him. And it's in the entrance that he catches a glimpse of what he believes. to be a woman behind a slightly ajar door. So he opens the door and he sees that it is a naked woman lying face down on the floor. She has cuts on her side, a blood clot in her nose. Her eyes are closed and she's not moving. It's Roxanne. It's Roxanne. And it would be determined that she was deceased.

So they arrest Lawrence Singleton. Yeah. For the murder of Roxanne Hayes. as they're transporting him to jail. They said his behavior was essentially like someone you'd find at a bar at 2 a.m. So like somebody after the drink, a gallon of vodka or two or two, he was just, he was just drunk. He couldn't get in and out of vehicles. He kept telling officers these fantastical tales.

He came up with something where Roxanne threw something at him. So he killed her. And at one point he said, yeah, I guess that makes me a murderer. You got me. Bust it. So he did admit to killing her. Sure. He tried to explain it.

But I think in the eyes of the law gives, and I'm no attorney, if someone, let's say, your wife, your spouse, your girlfriend throws a book at you, I do not believe that that gives you the right to murder them. I'm actually almost pretty sure about it. Yeah, I think if your girlfriend or your wife does that to you, you, you do not. should just take that book and open it up and start reading it. She's probably trying to tell you something. Probably.

That you need to sharpen you vocabulary and you need to get your head out of your ass. You can't do that at all the same time. No, but she's trying to tell you one or the other, maybe, but. Maybe. Maybe. This might be the most unbelievable part. So they get to the jail. And of course, they have to make this guy strip, right?

They're going to take his clothes for evidence. Yeah. Most likely they're going to take pictures of. of his body. They're going to take pictures of the cuts and all that. When he pulls his pants down, he still has a condom on his schwan's. Oh, still attached. It's just still on there.

Yeah. Well, he had to be so drunk for not to take the condom off, not to remember to zip up the old fly. So he had to be pretty toasted. Yeah, we talked about it, right? He had at least 30 minutes. from the time that police were even called to the time that they showed up. He could have done a number of things.

He could have zipped up his fly. He could have removed the condom. He could have disposed of her body probably in that amount of time. Yeah. I don't know what was going through his head. I don't think a lot. I think you're right. I think he was so drunk.

I also think, you know, this guy was mentally ill. I think his family was right to want him to be committed, even against his wishes. Yeah. I think that's proven out right after the fact. Sure. But you know police officers see a lot of strange things. But to bring a guy in on murder charges and, you know, have him take his clothes off and to see that he's still wearing a condom, that's one I don't know that they see every day. I don't think they probably do.

They searched his home, found tons of vodka, no turnips. No turnips. So that's pretty much your turnip defense out the window. Singleton later talked to a reporter and he was quoted as saying, I was framed the first time, but this time I did it. There was no way he was getting off, right? With the evidence that the state had, even Mary Vincent came in to testify at his murder trial. One of the hell, she's going to set the groundwork. Yeah, we're going to talk about Mary in a little bit.

Obviously, her life was tough. And I think she, as much as anyone, including Roxanne's family, wanted to see this guy back in prison. Sure. And we'll talk about why that is. But Singleton testified in his own defense. He said that on the day of the murder, he took a whole bunch of prescription medication. He drank a whole bunch of alcohol. He picked up Roxanne and drove to his house for oral sex.

They engaged in, you know, various types of sex. At some point, he says she took his wallet. A struggle broke out. He was trying to get his wallet back. She picked up a knife, his knife, that he kept by the couch. I guess he kept, he said he kept a knife by the couch. Okay. And she started swinging it at him.

And it was in the struggle. right, to try and disarm Roxanne Hayes that she was accidentally stabbed to death. Okay. I will say this. It's better than the turnip idea. Yes, it is. It's not out of the realm of plausibility. I'll say that.

But we know it didn't happen, right? The evidence didn't back it up. It didn't support it. If anything, it supported. it supported the exact opposite. Roxanne was the victim. Lawrence Singleton murdered her. And the jury found it that way. Yeah, it's good for them. On April 14th, 1998, Singleton was sentenced to die in Tampa, Florida. Now, he would never make it. But we mentioned his age, right? He's never going to make it to his execution. No, he's going to die before it even gets close to that.

He died from cancer in 2001 at the age of 74. And I mentioned Mary. I want to talk about her a little bit. She had a very tough time after her attack getting on with her life. I mean, who wouldn't? Horrific sexual assault, horrific mutilation of, you know, both your hands. I think you would end up reliving that moment again and again, you know, nightmares. just during the day staring out you know i think you would just run through your head it was that

tragic of event and i think she's made comments similar to to that and she had a hard time finding work she didn't have much money it was not an easy time for her when i wake up i'm haunted when i'm sleeping it won't it won't leave i can't escape it i wake up to it every day just wait waking up to no hands. Mary's talked in articles about the fact that she didn't trust men. And I think it would be very hard to. You know, this man violated her. Yeah.

But she did eventually meet a man. They married. They later divorced, but they had two great children. And Mary Vincent later remarried another man. Over the years, Mary, slowly gained back her confidence. To the point she would do some public speaking, get out there, talk about, you know, what occurred. Yeah, I think she worked to become a victim's advocate, right?

She told her story in the hopes that it would help other people, young people like she was back then, be more cautious about, you know, their actions, what they did in their everyday lives. but I think Gibbs that she specifically talks about the dangers of hitchhiking, which as we've talked about many times is extremely dangerous and probably doesn't get talked about enough anymore. I just don't think it would come up other than people doing true crime shows or things like that. No, I think you're right. It's just, but man, could we point back to so many episodes that the hitchhiking was a part of the reasons for the selection of the person. Yeah, I think still for little kids, right? You still have,

I don't know, I don't think it's stranger danger, but you have messages that go out to little kids. Don't get into cars with people you don't know. You have all that. Right. But I don't think there's much at all aimed at 14, 15 year olds, 16, 17, 18, whatever saying, hey, hitchhiking is a terrible idea. Don't do it. Find an alternative solution. Because people still do it. I see people all the time. Yeah, on the side of the road.

Hitch and the ride. Sure. But, you know, I really feel for, I feel for both victims. You know, Roxanne Hayes lost her life. You know, but I feel for Mary Vincent as well. There's no doubt that this altered the course of her life. It altered the trajectory. You know, I mentioned that she wanted to be a dancer.

That dream. was gone for her. Yeah. And I think she was aimless kind of for a period of time. She struggled. But it really seems like, at least in the research and the articles, that she's gotten through it. I hate to use those words.

But I think for a long time, she looked at herself as a victim. And like we're hearing a lot more of these days, now she views herself as a survivor. She said that. Yep. And she's turning what happened to her into, I don't want to say something good. What's, what am I trying to say? It is something good because she's, she's telling the story to help other people. Yeah, which in turn helps her, you know.

I think it does. Yeah, of course it has to. It's got to be therapeutic, right? To number one, to tell your story. But number two, to know that you are touching lots. Right. And if just one person, you know, a speech that you give at some high school in California or wherever, Washington State, one person, let's say a 15 year old girl makes a split second decision not to get into the car, not to hitchhike, because of that speech she heard from you. Right.

You've made a tremendous different. Sure. So. But that's, that's it. That's the story of Lawrence. It's singleton. I said it up front. It was that it.

We've talked a lot about killers who have mutilated. Now, you know, a lot of times mutilations are done postmortem. This is really one of the most heinous mutilations that we've ever covered of someone that has survived. Right. That it was done while they were alive and they survived on top of that. We got some voicemails. You want to check that out? Sure.

Let's hear them. Hey, Mike, Givie. this is Taylor out of Rowley, North Carolina. You guys are my all-time favorite podcast. So I have a suggestion. I listen to a lot of true crime podcasts, but I have never heard a story about this man. He is North Carolina's most prolific serial killer.

His name is Henry Wallace, and I would love to hear a show on him. But you guys are awesome. Keep doing what you're doing. Thanks so much for keeping me company on my 10-hour long worst days. And keep your own time tickets. We love that. We love the praise.

We love the kudos. We also love the episode suggestions. Yeah. And we'll make sure that Wallace is on the list. He may already be. I think he is. I think he is too. But the list is getting so big, Gibbs.

It's kind of like our episodes. People sometimes ask me if we've done one. I've got to go back and look. Oh, I know. Because we have done so many episodes when you count up between T-Cat and T-Cat Unsold. So the other day I went out to our True Crime all the time Facebook page and asked a question about what cases would you like to hear? And it's just overloaded, you know. And there's some really good ones that I've never heard of.

But what was funny was some of them were the ones that we've done, that people were. People just... They haven't got that far yet. Yep. They haven't got that far. And I get a lot of that too. I get emails and, you know, I try to reply and say, yeah, we did that one. It's episode, but I have to, you know, I got to look it up.

Number one, to make sure we did it, especially with Unsolved now because it's on, the older ones are on Stitcher Premium. Right. Hi, Mike and Gibby. This is Lisa Lungwall in Sandy, Utah. I just became a Patreon supporter. And I just love you guys so much. I get laughing at work all the time, and I've actually turned on my partner at work to your podcast,

and now she's laughing all the time, so she'll say to me, what are you laughing at? And then we'll go into it, and we both start laughing. But I've been binging your podcast for quite a long time, and I just love it. And I just wanted to say I was Team Gibby until you ended up singing the Conway Twitty song, and now I have to say I'm team Furby all the way. So anyway, I also had a recommendation for a true crime story here in the Salt Lake City area. It was back in the early 80s. Arthur Gary Bishop was the guy's name.

Horrible, horrible, horrible. So check into that one and keep up the good work and keep your own time ticking. Love you guys. Hello, darling. All right, we'll make sure that one's on. Is that Conway 20 there? Is it Johnny Cash? No, that was, do you not remember the Conway Twitter?

You don't. You're trying to weasel out of it. I know. I remember. I probably didn't do it as good as I did it last time. Probably not. I'm not warmed up, man. My voice is cracking because I have to carry you.

There's so much talking involved. You do carry me a lot, man. Hi, Mike and Gibby. This is Diana from Utah. I'm calling just to say thank you so much for doing an amazing podcast. It is so helpful. I found it not that long ago and has been binging. And it helps me because it distracts me while I am going through some pretty intensive

chemotherapy for leukemia. I'm in the hospital at least one day a week for chemo. Sometimes I'm in there a lot more than one day. And listening to your podcast helps distract me and helps keep my mind off of things that are going on. And it's nice. It helps distract me, especially while I'm missing my two-year-old son and my husband. And so thank you so much and keep your own time ticking. Bye.

Wow, Gibbs. First, obviously, we feel bad that you're having to go through that. Yeah. But at the same time, I will say this, it makes me feel good to know that we're helping in the smallest of ways. Right. I get a good feeling from that. And you and I have a history with leukemia.

And we had a friend go through that. Yeah. He did great. Pulled through. He's doing amazing now. So we're with you all the way. Hi there. I'm my name is Eddie and I'm calling from Sweden.

And I just want to say that I really love your podcast. Your voices are amazing. And it just brings me joy, you know, going around at my home doing things, just listening to you guys. It's amazing. and thank you so much for this podcast and also terminology and also true crime all the time and self and yeah just keep going love you guys bye from sweden sweden awesome listens to everything yeah appreciate that so so much and i know morph appreciates it too he does yeah i'll be over there soon sweden Finland Norway which one

All. Didn't work. You're making the rounds? The Nova Scotia tour. I think that's Scandinavia. Scandinavian tour. I think you've got Nova Scotia, Canada, mixed up with Scandinavia. Yeah.

I'm flying out of there. What you just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response, were you even close to anything that could be considered a rationalized? thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. God have mercy on your soul. You've been waiting to use that. I have been saving that up and that was the perfect time. You're like, finally. All right. So with that, I think we're going to have to shut her down. Yeah, I've got to walk away. Walk away. I'm walking away. So that's it for another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike and Gabby, stay safe and keep.

your own time ticking.