True Crime All The Time - Lemuel Warren Smith

Episode Date: September 10, 2018

Lemuel Smith is a serial killer from New York who murdered at least six people. He did numerous stints in prison from the age of 17, only to kill again after being let out.Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss this killer who has spent all but a year or so of his adult life in prison. He even killed while he was in prison. Smith murdered the first female state correctional officer to be killed in the line of duty.You can help support the show by going to patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit www.truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

and welcome to episode 95 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in True Crime. Mike Gibson, Gibby, how are you? Hey, man, how you doing today? I'm just happy to have a voice again. Yeah, you're back. Yeah, I don't know if I'm 100% but I'm 100% better than I was last week. I want to play that song from Eminem. Which one's that? Shady's back. Oh, back again. Yeah. So we have a lot. So we have a lot. So we have. had some folks, especially in our Facebook groups and things like that, make comments like, hey, we didn't even know that was Ferd. We thought maybe somebody else was, you know, leading the podcast. What if that would, if we got hijacked, podcast hijacked? Like hackers? Yeah.

North Korea hacked us. We're talking right now and all the next thing, you know, you're static. And then somebody comes in and says, you know, oh, this is John from North Korea. Is that your North Korean accent? I am John from North Korea Well they want to try to use like American name But they still have the accent I got you Yeah I got you I think people would figure that part out pretty quickly

I think so But what are you going to do I'm just happy that I'm not sick anymore And I'm feeling good Yeah because I try not to catch what you had Yeah it wasn't fun at all Hey we got some Patreon shoutouts Let's run through those

Okay Had Bri Bri Bri Bri Bri Bri Bri Bri What's up Brabri McKenzie Rose. Thank you, McKinsey. Tiffany Thompson. Thank you. Evan Patterson.

Hey, thanks, Evan. Katie M.H. Just M.H. Dusty Thorhauer jumped up to our highest level. Thanks, Dusty. Kelsey Williams. Awesome. Erica Selenak.

Solanak. Sam Sherlock. Hey, thank you. Bobby Ecker. Thanks. Thomas Lancaster. I like that. Scott Hull.

Yeah. Lauren Mains. Zoe Little. Anastasia Martin jumped up to our highest level. Oh, Anastasia. As did Hannah Potts and Haley DeMarc. Wow. All jumped up to our highest level.

That's busy. Christopher Morgan. Thank you, Chris. Tahina Crawford. Tahina Crawford. Yeah, it's a different name. I've never seen that. I really like it.

Sounds like, you know, tropical. It does. Makes you feel like you're on the... Fijian? On the islands or something. Yeah. With a boat drink. Terry Timlet.

Thanks, Terry. Jumped out of our highest level. Paul Brand. Awesome. John Bacalar. Oh, Bacalar. Jumped down to our highest level. Sounds like a game.

Like, back a lot. Back a lot? Yeah. Are you thinking like Bacarat? Baccarat? Baccarat. Yeah. But this is back a lot.

And he keeps coming back a lot. That's your game. Yeah. Terry Lawrence. Hey, thanks, Terry. Trisha Rathke. Awesome. Hannah.

Just Hannah. Just Hannah. Like the movie. Megan Harrington. Awesome. And then if we go back into the vault, Gibbs. We're going to go back as far as we can. Yeah. And pull out Linda Nielsen. Thanks, Linda. Been with us a long time, long time supporter. Love it. So we appreciate that. We appreciate

all the new Patreon support. We do. All the people that stay with us month after month means a lot. We got a great, a great Patreon following. I love it. They stick with us and we have, I mean, the new ones coming in. It's amazing. And I just appreciate everything. Yeah. And it goes a long way towards allowing us to keep putting out this content. Yeah. We had some PayPal support as well. Sarah Anna Sophia Pajanan. Say it again.

Sarah Anna Sophia Pajanan. That's what I'm going with. We're just say Pajan. Yep. Molly Hilda Brandt. Hey, Molly. And Albin Hall. Albin.

Albin. Albin. Albin. Albin back. I knew that you were going to say that. I knew you wanted to say that. I did. But we appreciate all the pal,

the PayPal support as well. Yeah, thank you so much. So right now we've got an episode of True Crime All Time Unsolved Out as well. It's floating out there. It's on Russell and Shirley Dermond. And this is a baffling murder mystery. You know, it's not as old as some of the unsolved cases that we do. No. But we're talking about an elderly couple, a wealthy couple living out their golden years and their dream home. on the lake, and then, you know, all of a sudden they're murdered and the investigation and suspects and tie-ins and all that stuff that comes with it. But make sure you check that out. But we've got an interesting episode of true crime all the time. We really do. We're talking about Lemuel Warren Smith, serial killer from New York, who would say that his brother, who died before he was even born, guided his murderous action. This is what he would say later on. A brother that he never met, the spirit of his brother, I guess is what he was talking about.

Lemuel Smith was born on July 23rd, 1941 in Amsterdam, New York. And he was born into an extremely religious household. His father was a preacher. And he had an older brother named John, who I was talking about, that died of encephalitis two years before Lemuel was born. But like I said, John is going to have this tremendous effect on Limb throughout his life. You'll hear me call him Lim, because that's what he went by. And it's also much easier to say than Lemuel. Now, much of what is known about Smith's childhood comes from psychiatrists who examined him later.

Growing up, he didn't play with other children. he made his only friends out of stuffed animals that he had at home, and he gave each stuffed animal a name. Now, that's not that unusual. A lot of kids do that. Depends what the names were. Yeah. Well, I mean, if it's Beelzebub and kind of, you know, Lucifer and some strange names, might be a little different.

That might be some early warning signs. Did you have stuffed animals growing up? Yeah, who didn't have stuffed animals growing up? I had a monkey. That was my favorite. You had a monkey. I had a monkey. What was the name of your monkey?

Sad to say, I forget. I'm sure it had a name, but I don't remember. Do you still have the monkey? I don't. Do you have a stuff animal on your bed or near your bed currently? No. No, no. I'm positive.

You got dolls right over there. Those are, don't talk about my funco pop dolls, whatever they're called, as in the same vein of something that I would sleep with. You sure? I'm positive. First of all, they're like three inches tall. If I run upstairs right now. Go ahead. Check it out.

Ask my wife. She'd be like, that's my monkey, givey. That's not Mike's monkey at all. She'll take the blame for me. You probably had that little monkey with the tambourines in the sand that went boom, boom, boom. No, I never had one of those. Now, over time, Smith would abandon the stuffed animals, except for one. I mean, this is as he gets into.

being a teenager. Yeah. He kept one and it was a panda because he believed that the panda held the spirit of his brother John. And at the age of 14, his mother took the panda and burned it right in front of him. Wow. He didn't take this very well, Gibbs. As would any kid, you know, if their mom burned their favorite stuffed animal, but he would

tell psychiatrists later that this was. the point that he made a pact with the devil and it was centered around protecting his brother. So we're getting into a strange area here, right? A brother that he never met. So we're talking about the spirit of his dead brother. He's going to make a pact with the devil to protect it. And, you know, like I mentioned, Lim Smith is going to say later that it wasn't him. it was John that told him to commit the evil acts that he did.

Now, another thing that he told psychiatrists later in life was that at the age of 11, he tried to smother a nine-year-old girl to death. But nobody really knows if that's true. It's never been proven to be true, but it was a claim that he made. He's going to do enough bad stuff that is proven. But I threw that tidbit in there because he actually said it himself. So it's one of those things where you've got to kind of believe he's telling the truth

because all the bad stuff he did so it wouldn't be uncharacteristic for him. What's not making him look good, right? Usually don't you doubt things that killers say that try to put them in a better light? This is not one of those things. Right. So to tell a psychiatrist that what's the end game unless you really did do that? But apparently they haven't been able to find. anyone from his past that either lived around him that was that age at that time that fit the profile.

But there is some evidence that Lim Smith suffered several head injuries while growing up, maybe as many as five or six. So he had a number of injuries that caused trauma to his head. Yeah. It's thought that he had two before the age of six. I had a lot of stitches. I had to get in my head when I was young. Did you?

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well? If you could call it trauma. I mean... What did you just cut it or... Split it open. So was it a pretty bad injury?

Yeah, you know, 10, 12 stitches couldn't handle. Yeah, I don't know. So pretty minimal, right? Yeah. Just one more thing. Another reason why I should keep an eye on you. Yeah, you know. If I need...

As if I needed another reason. I know. Let me just sit here and shave my face with my knife blade. Yeah, that always creeps me out. Yeah. Yeah. Because you don't, you don't use any, uh, no, shaving lotion. You just rub it up and down your face.

I like a raw, man. I like my skin to itch a little bit afterwards. So two by the age of six. Then later, he fell out of a tree, was knocked unconscious. I never fell out of a tree. Did you ever fall out of a tree? I wasn't a tree climber. No.

I never understood the fascination with climbing trees. I just, I climbed them, but. No, that wasn't my thing. I knew not to go out on the week. Limbs. That is smart. Yeah. He was involved in a snow sledding accident that caused some head trauma. That could be bad, though.

It could be. Yeah, I've seen, my neighbor took one really bad. I mean, you've got trees, you've got a lot of things that if you veer off course, you could be in deep trouble. It ain't like Chevy Chase and Christmas vacation. Where he somehow magically flies right through all these trees. Yeah. And then he had at least one head injury playing basketball.

How do you do that? I didn't play basketball a lot like that. So I guess that can happen. Yeah, it can happen. I got kind of upended one time going up for a layup. Guy came up underneath me and flipped me. And I landed on my back and my head hit the back of my head. I always just go for the slam dunk, man.

I do my takeoff. Literally, that makes me laugh out loud, picturing you trying to dunk a basketball. Palming the ball, my one hand going up in the air. kind of like a Michael Jordan thing. Yeah. Do a little twist, just in twirl. You're super athletic. And people can tell just by the way you're talking about it.

Yeah, they're like, oh, it sounds like he knows what he's talking about. What a great basketball player. Twist and a twirl. Now, in December of 57, Smith was indicted for burglary of a coffee shop in his hometown. He said some coffee pretty bad. And again, you know, right? At that point, he's 16 years old. I said some really good French roast.

But it's just the next year. January of 58, he's a junior in high school that the truly evil acts begin. So he starts young. Yeah. So he was not gifted academically. I know that's something you don't know anything about. No, I don't understand that. You don't understand how people are not mental level smart.

Yeah, at least a mentalist. A mentalist. But unlike you, he was a great basketball player. True. My thing was speed, track. Speed. I think you might have taken speed. Now that I believe that you had speed. I don't know. But he really was a gifted basketball player. You know, as a junior, he was about six, four. Oh, wow. So, you know, he had some height. But he was also in love and wanted to marry his high school sweetheart. That happened a lot back in those days, you know?

much more so than today, I would think. Yeah, absolutely. But his parents, you know, I mentioned his household was very religious. His parents were not having any of it. And it boiled over one night, January 21st, 1958, as they were talking about, as he was saying that he wanted to marry his high school sweetheart. So he stormed out of the house, outside. And it's January in New York. They're having major snow.

and sleet. Yeah, blizzard-like. Yeah, and he's outside when he notices and begins to follow a 46-year-old woman named Dorothy Waterstreet. And Lim is going to later say that it was John who commanded him to follow this woman. And we'll get into it later, but he is going to blame all of his actions on the spirit of his dead brother. I mentioned Dorothy was 46. She was a prominent woman in the community. She was a committee woman in that area.

And she had just come from a fundraising event at a local church. So a good person. She was a good person. Yeah. She had a paper bag with her as she was walking that inside had $30. Okay. That she had collected from this fundraising event. She recognized Lemuel Smith on the street.

and started to have a conversation with him, asked him, you know, what he was doing outside, the weather was so bad. Right. And from there, it turned deadly. You know, he stabbed her. And again, would later say, wasn't me. I wasn't doing it. John was controlling the knife.

It was this other guy. So police were called by a clergyman and his son. They looked out and saw something laying in the snow across the street through their window. And police came. They found the body of Dorothy Water Street. She'd been stabbed five times in the face. And one of these Gibbs had gone directly into her eye. Brutal, man. That's very brutal. It was a very vicious attack. Her jaw was broken. And it seemed as if after she was down, Smith stomped her repeatedly. It would later be determined that she died from essentially drowning in her own blood, suffocating. So like you said, a very brutal attack. Police didn't find the $30. But they did find

some witnesses. There were four women who had been sitting in a car pretty close to the murder scene. But the weather was so bad that night. The visibility was terrible. All they could tell police was that they saw a figure running from the crime scene and they knew that it was a very large African American man. So no details really. Right. Pretty, pretty limited. Like you said, very limited. Yeah. But it's snowing. So police follow footprints in the snow down an alley. And they find the bag of money. And it's where they find the money that the tracks stop. And apparently Gibbs, there was some information about them. bringing in flamethrowers to try to quickly melt the snow in order to find the murder weapon.

Yeah, cool. I've never heard of that in my life, but very cool. Yeah. Flamethrowers? Yeah. What's a quicker way to melt snow than with a flamethrower? That's about it right there. But they were unsuccessful.

They didn't find it. But it's just two days later, rings and a watch that were identified as belonging to Dorothy Water Street were found in a locker room at Amsterdam High School. So naturally, police began focusing on students that used the locker room, mostly athletes. And I don't think it took them all that long to zero in on Lemuel Smith. Number one, he lived just a few blocks from where the murder occurred. Number two, he knew Dorothy Water Street. He was friends with her son.

so they were familiar to each other. Police picked him up, took him to the station for questioning. But on the way to the station, Smith jumped out of the police car while they were sitting at a traffic light and he took off. Now, shockingly, Gibbs, I know this is going to blow you away. The star athlete was able to outrun the police on foot and he got away. Shocker. As I'm assuming you would have back in your heyday. Or did.

Or did many times. Now, that doesn't make you look very good, right? When you bolt from the police car and take off running. But something very strange happened. He later showed up at the police station with a lawyer to turn himself in. Not sure what he gained by doing this. Why jump out of the car only to later come back to the place where they were taking you to anyway? But I thought it was worth pointing out.

out. Trying to do the right thing, I guess. Maybe somebody talked to him and said, hey, you got to turn yourself in. So you're thinking in a moment of panic, he bolted, but then later his conscience got the best of him. Is that what you're thinking? Or somebody gave him better advice. That could be. That could be. So they were finally able to question him. And Smith denied having anything to do with the murder of Dorothy Water Street. But they thought it was him. to the point where the district attorney presented evidence to a grand jury, but they failed to indict Lim Smith. And that's saying something because, you know, grand juries indict a lot of people.

You don't need that much evidence to get a grand jury indictment, right? Not the same level that you need to win at trial. But really, all they had was a mishmash of circumstantial evidence, right? He lived close. He knew the victim. They didn't have the murder weapon. They didn't have a witness that could say it was him. Now, he was a large African-American man,

but they didn't have a witness that could definitively say it was him. They just didn't have anything directly tying him to the murder. So he went free. And it was after this that he moved to Baltimore, Maryland with his mother. So we said this happened in January of 58. by the summer of 58, he's already in trouble again. In Baltimore, he attempted to rob a dry cleaning store. Did he want to pick up a new leisure suit?

I don't know. You know how you like those leisure suits? Maybe he did too. Nah, this is 58. Yeah. It's too early. Too early for leisure suits. This is more suits.

Yeah. Yeah. A lot of suit wearing back then. Yeah, there was. A little fedora maybe. Well, if you're cool, like you. Well, that's true. Yeah.

It is Baltimore though, man. That's true. I don't know what that means. Can't be careful. Why is that? Just saying you got to be careful. As you would in any big city. Yes, you need to be careful.

Yeah. But in the process of robbing this dry cleaning store, he beat a 25-year-old female clerk named Edna Johnson with a pipe. With a pipe. That's some serious damage, man. Well, to the point that she nearly died. Yeah. And I believe he would have killed this woman had he not been interrupted, but he was interrupted, which was probably a really good thing. Police were able to figure out it was him.

They snatched him up. He was arrested. And he went to trial in January of 59 and was ultimately convicted in April. He was sentenced to a maximum of 20 years in the Baltimore penitentiary. So Gibbs, this kid is 17 years old. He's already gotten away with one murder and now faces 20 years in prison for nearly killing another woman. While he was in prison, he converted to Catholicism. And the first two times he came up for parole, he was denied.

But on the third attempt, the prison chaplain spoke in his favor and he was paroled in 1968. So he did 10 years. Yeah. out of a 20-year max sentence. But now he's out. He's free. And he moved back to New York. But it's not going to be long before he struck again.

In mid-May of 69, he attacked two different women in two separate incidents on the same day. He attacked a woman in broad daylight in her car behind a library in Schenectady, but again was interrupted. And he took off when a passerby noticed what was happening. And I'll say it again. You know, thankfully, somebody came by because just as in the case in Baltimore, I believe he would have killed this woman. But he didn't. He took off.

Now, what I do think is that he was probably really frustrated by the fact that the attack on this woman was unsuccessful. So he targeted a 46-year-old woman that was a friend of his mother. He abducted this woman and repeatedly raped her. But for some reason, Gibbs, he let her go. I don't know if it was because he knew her. I don't know if there's a theory maybe that she was able to talk to him, persuade him to let her go. But this is a tough one for me to figure out.

Here's a person that has killed. So we know he has that capacity. He kidnaps a woman he knows sexually. assaults her, but then lets her go. This is not a stranger to him. No. This is a person that can very easily identify him to police. It just doesn't make any sense, given everything we know about Lemuel Smith.

And that's exactly what happens. He's arrested very quickly, charged with a litany of crimes. And in November of that year, he's convicted of unlawful. imprisonment of the first victim and attempted rape and assault of the second victim. And he sentenced to four to 15 years in prison. Now, I do want to talk about this a little bit. I'm not sure how these charges got what appears to me, Gibbs, to be knocked down. I couldn't find that in the research.

He was charged with attempted rape when it was clear that he did sexually assault, raped this woman. And he didn't receive any kidnapping charge, which I thought was strange as well. Unless the prosecution said, look, we know he raped her, but we don't have enough evidence to make that so solid. Right. We definitely got attempted rape, but we can make that really stick. Yeah, I know something like that happened, some maneuvering. I just couldn't find the details.

And I really wanted to know the exact details of how these charges got, you know, kind of pulled down to what they ultimately were. Lim Smith served seven years of the four to 15 year prison sentence and over objections by many people was paroled in October of 1976. So you've got to look at this timeline. He has served the last 17 out of 18 years in prison for various despicable crimes. But apparently there was a new law passed in New York. I think it was just in New York that required inmates to be released after they had served a certain amount of their sentence or a percentage or something. So many years.

So he was released. But it's a huge shocker Gibbs that Limbsmith would not change one little bit. 17 out of 18 years hasn't taught him anything in prison. If anything, he ramps it up. He ramps up the carnage. After prison, he got a job at a warehouse. but began killing within a month of his release. 30 days, man.

This is a bad, bad individual. So what happened was he went to a religious store near the warehouse that he worked. And he'd been there before. Apparently, even in prison, he did some painting. And he did some religious paintings. And he wanted to sell them to the store. But the transaction didn't go as he had hoped. The guy offered him, you know, maybe $10 or something.

I forget what the exact amount was, but he snapped. He bound the store owner. This is a 50-year-old man named Robert Hederman, bound his hands together, and then cut his throat so deeply that his spinal cord could be seen. That's pretty vicious. That is vicious. This is a vicious attack. Yeah. I mean, I've had that neck surgery where they had a cut across, you know, and you see in the video,

and see that everything that when they slide it over to, you know, work on the vertebrae. I can't even imagine if they slit your neck all the way across, man, and cross everything besides your spine. Man, it's got to take some pressure. Yeah, you can picture this in your head, but it's not a good thing. It's not a good picture. But he didn't stop there. He also murdered a 59-year-old store clerk named Margaret Byron.

He stabbed her a total of. 15 times and four of those were directly to her heart. So he takes off, police finally get to the scene, they're investigating, they find a blood trail that led down the sidewalk to a trash can. Inside the trash can, they find a religious garment soaked in blood. But they can't figure out who committed this vicious double murder. Now just a month later. So again, Gibbs, this guy's been out of prison for two months, he's already killed twice. Smith saw an attractive 24-year-old woman named Joan Richburg at a shopping center. He followed her and attacked her inside her car. He raped her and then killed her by slitting her throat. It's terrible, man. Terrible.

In July of 1977, Smith kidnapped, raped, and murdered, a tall, blonde, 30-year-old. woman named Mary Lee Wilson. And this would be an extremely heinous murder. Wilson's body was found not far from the law office where she worked as a legal secretary. Wooden stakes had been driven into her body and her chest had been crushed by either a heavy object or by an individual. Now, we know Lim Smith has already stomped a woman. woman. We also know that he's a very large individual. The other thing that they found were bite marks

on Mary Lee's body. So these are a number of murders. And police are looking at Smith for these crimes, but they've not yet been able to put enough evidence together to make a case. But they get they have their eye on him. I was like, I think they're getting close. Yeah. They think it's him. They just can't. They just don't have enough to arrest him, which is unfortunate because the very next month on August 19th, 1977, he struck again. He kidnapped an 18-year-old woman by the name of Marianne Maggio and forced her to drive the two of them in her Vega to an abandoned house. What's a Vega, Gibbs? Who makes a Vega? I forget. Yeah, Chevy make the Vega? Chevy Vega. I think it's a Chevy Vega. I remember the Vega, though.

It's a distinctive looking car, if I remember right? Yeah. Now, it was at this abandoned house that Limbsmith brutally, sexually assaulted this young woman. And after the attack, he forced Maggio back in her car and had her drive them back towards Albany, New York. What Smith didn't know was that police had been alerted by a man with a CB radio that, had spotted the Vega because when Marianne didn't return home, her parents were worried and they called the police. And apparently Gibbs, the police put out the information of her description and the description of her car on the Citizens Band network. And it just so happened that someone that was listening

saw the car and called it in. So it's kind of a, I don't want to call it. I don't want to call it. it a fluke or but it was a an interesting set of circumstances that led to this to them finding the Vega. Yeah, I agree with that. I mean, you know, today maybe they put it out, you know, on a, they break into your favorite show with a news bulletin or you get an amber alert today. But back then, they put it on like this, you know, a CB frequency and this guy happens to hear it. And then also happens. to spot the car. Lucky. It really was.

Now, police stopped Maggio's Yellow Vega near Albany, New York. And as soon as they approached the car, she started yelling for help and saying, you know, help me. Help me. I've been raped. And she also told police that he had a gun. Police drew their weapons. They forced both of them out of the car.

Smith tried to tell the police that Marianne was his girlfriend. And the only reason why she was. was saying these things is because they were an interracial couple. But police found items in the car, you know, rope, duct tape, various items that he had used to bind Marianne Maggio and they arrested Lemuel Smith. He was eventually charged with kidnapping, robbery, and rape. So he's going to go to trial again. But prior to this trial, they exhumed the body. of Mary Lee Wilson because they wanted to compare the bite marks that had been left on her body to Lim Smith. And when they did, it was a positive match. And Smith is confronted with this evidence.

Eventually, it would take a little while, but eventually he confessed to five murders, including the murder of Dorothy Water Street way back in 1958. So he first goes on trial for the kidnapping and rape of Marianne Mazio. But he's not going to have a jury trial. He's going to have a bench trial. The judge is going to decide whether he's guilty or innocent. And this is where his defense attorney comes out with the brother defense, right? This is, you know, Lim Smith didn't do these things.

It was his brother John that was telling him what to do, was controlling. his actions, probably not hard to figure out that the judge didn't buy all of that. And he gave Smith two 25 to life sentences to be served concurrently. So this was just for Marianne Maggio. He later went on trial because remember he had confessed to these murders. Right. He went on trial in Albany County for the murders of Robert Hederman and Margaret Byron. and he would be found guilty there.

And it was on February 2nd, 1979. He was sentenced to 25 years to life on each count of murder. They also tacked on an additional 12 and a half to 25 year sentence for robbing the store. The district attorney said he would have asked for the death penalty if New York allowed for it. This is what he thought of Lemuel Smith. And again, they know everything now. And of course they have his record. Right.

He had an extensive record even before these things that, you know, he confessed to. Smith was indicted for the murders of Marley Wilson and Joan Richburg, but he was never tried for them. Prosecutors decided that it didn't make sense to try him for those two. he had already received so much time in prison. They knew he was never going to get out. That's one of those things, Gibbs, you and I talk about from time to time. It's a decision that a prosecutor has to make.

And I'm hoping that they conferred with the victim's families. Obviously, they're taking into account the time, the cost to the taxpayers. But I hope they took into account the wishes of the victim's families as well. but I don't know if they always do that or not. Yeah, I don't think so either. I'm not sure. Yeah. I think sometimes they do, but I don't know if that happens all the time.

I'm sure in a lot of cases, that is purely a financial decision. But again, you can make the case that what is it going to do? Is it, you know, yeah, he's going to be found guilty for these murders. He's going to be given additional time, but it's not adding the death penalty. It's adding time to sentences that are already. so large, he's most likely never going to get out. Now, normally, that would be enough for an episode, right? We would talk about his time in prison and where he was now and kind of wrap it up. But there's more to this story. And it happens while Lim Smith is at the Green Haven Correctional

facility in New York. Donna Payant was a 31-year-old corrections officer at this facility. And and she was assigned to the cell block where Lim Smith was housed. Donna was married and she had three children at home. And she had only been on this job, Gibbs, for about a month when she went missing on May 15th, 1981. So as soon as they figured out she was missing, you know, the prison went on lockdown. They searched everywhere looking for Donna. but they couldn't find any trace of her.

So they brought in search dogs and these dogs eventually traced her scent to a landfill. And it was there that state police found her. And they identified her pretty quickly. It's amazing how dogs can do that. Yeah, I am amazed by that. Yeah. How they get the way that they can track by smell is, it's pretty amazing. And then you talk about like cadaver dogs.

And, you know, they're trained, bomb sniffing dogs, things like that. It's amazing how they can train dogs to focus on one thing, one type of smell. You just get him to focus to stay off the couch. I don't have that problem. I got my dog trained. Yeah, he's a well-oiled machine. Yeah. He lays on the floor.

Except if you leave food out. He'll get it. He will get it. That's the only thing that he's bad at. Yeah. It's the only weird thing about coming over here. all your food is tied to the ceiling. You have to keep it up very high because he's a big dog.

But it is. I mean, you can't understate it. How, you know, amazing it is, what they can do training these dogs, but it is the dogs that find her.

She's identified by police. And they determined that her body had been transported from the Greenhaven facility to the landfill in a truck that transported garbage from the prison. So that's how she ended up in the landfill. Donna Payant was the first female state corrections officer in the United States to die in the line of duty. So she has that distinction.

As the authorities began investigating her death, they had no shortage of individuals to look at. At the time, there were more than 600 inmates at Greenhaven who had been convicted of either murder or manslaughter. 600. Can you imagine what chow time was like at that place? I cannot even imagine. I'm picturing myself like Terry Cruz in the third Friday. Have you seen that one, Gibbs?

No, I have not. You don't like the Friday movies? I didn't see the third one. The third one, Terry Cruz, you know who Terry Cruz is, right? The great big guy. Yeah. He just got out of prison. Yeah.

And he's walking around with phone. books like inside of his pants but that come up like up his waist his abdomen yeah i've seen that before in other movies that that would be me i'd be so afraid of getting shanked or shived or you'd have all those fun books around you tight to you yeah you got to watch that movie man if you haven't seen that now police began to narrow down their suspects right they start with 600 and within a few days, they begin focusing on Lem Smith, who by this time was 40 years old and had spent most of his adult life, almost all of his adult life, in prison. About one or two years of his entire adult life he spent on the outside. That's crazy. That's unbelievable. Yeah, it is. It is unbelievable.

To not learn from at least one of those stents that, hey, I better stop doing this shit. I'd like to stay on the outside. But maybe he didn't. Maybe he liked it in there. I don't know. Sometimes they do. You know, they don't want to be out. They're so used to the prison life. You know, they want to stay inside. You got that from watching Shawshank Redemption. Maybe. Maybe not. Your math skills have global potential. As an actuary, you'll solve some of the world's most pressing problems while helping people to live better lives. Become an actuary through the society of actuaries and work anywhere in the world. But in comes forensic pathologist Dr. Michael Bodden.

He was the one who performed the autopsy on Donna Payant. And Bodden is kind of famous in the world of true crime. It really is. He's been involved in a lot of high profile cases from OJ. I mean, you name it. He's been involved in some of the really big cases. But where I really remember him from was the HBO show. show autopsy. I remember that. I was always fascinated by that show. You know, it started in 1994 and it

ran for nine seasons. This case might have even been on there. I can't remember. It probably was because he was so involved in this case. So as Bodden was performing the autopsy on Donna's body, he noticed a bite mark on her breast. And this is going to turn out to be a key piece of evident. Bodden is quoted to saying, I saw the markings on the breast and a nipple had been bitten off. I remembered another case where the exact same thing had happened. The killer had bitten the woman's breast and the nipple was missing. And the other case that he was talking about was Mary Lee Wilson that Smith strangled in 1977. So it wasn't hard for authorities to figure out that Smith had been convicted of that crime.

And he just so happened to be serving his life sentences at Greenhaven. So they called in Dr. Loyal Levine, pretty famous, noted forensic dentist. He has consulted on a lot of high profile cases too. He compared the two bite marks and determined that the bite marks on Donna Payne's body matched those found on the body of Marley Wilson. So it's a done deal. You know, investigators had the smoking gun they needed to charge Lemuel Smith with the murder of Donna Payan.

So he goes to trial. His trial begins towards the end of 1982, and it lasted about six months. And this time the prosecution was able to seek the death penalty. And they told the jury that Dona Payant was lured into the chaplain's office at the prison by Limb Smith. He was working there at the time in the chaplain's office. He attacked her and strangled her to death.

Then he wrapped her body in plastic, put it in a 55-gallon drum, and then put that in the dumpster. Now, where in the hell he's getting all this stuff, Gibbs? I don't know. I don't either. I guess we're taking those shop classes or working in shop or something. I don't know, where else you get that stuff in prison that? I don't know. But apparently he got one.

Pays to do laundry duty, I guess. Maybe. Smith was represented by defense attorney William Kuntler. This is a guy that became well known in the 60s and 70s representing, you know, high profile left-wing activists. So evidence was presented. Witnesses were called by both sides. But the most damning evidence came from the prosecution.

in the form of the bite marks. Lowell Levine testified that six or seven teeth in the bite marks on the bodies of Donna Payant and Mary Lee Wilson match. And you know Gibbs that had to hold a lot of weight with the jury. When you when you have people like Bodin, Levine, these are guys that, you know, were very respected in their professions. that evidence, in my opinion, probably swayed the jury all on its own. Final statements by the prosecution took a day and a half.

And those by the defense took a full three days. It was on April 21st, 1983, a jury of seven men and five women convicted Lemuel Smith of Donna Payant's murder after three days of deliberation. He was sentenced to death in the electric chair. And this was the only sentence that the law allowed. And I said the prosecution was seeking the death penalty. Really, they didn't have a choice. They had to because the law in New York mandated the death penalty for any prisoner who committed a murder while already serving a life sentence.

This was supposed to be like the only deterrent that there was. Right. If you're already serving a life sentence, what else? What else can we do to you if you commit a murder? I think what was the thinking. I don't know if the law is still like that or not, but it was back then. At the sentencing hearing, Lim Smith told the judge, God bless you, Your Honor. I'm not sure why.

Seems like a strange thing to say. And it's kind of like that sign vote episode where George would beat the husband was saying, God bless you after the wife would sneeze and the husband got so upset about it. Yeah, it's exactly like that. save for the fact that this involves death, murder. Prison. Prison. Judges.

Judges. But other than that, it's exactly like that Seinfeld episode. Yeah. God bless you. It is a very strange thing to say, though. Extremely strange. But the thing that I found odd, and maybe it's not odd, it just seemed like it to me, the judge set his execution date for just the very next month, July 10.

Now, we know executions take a long time. maybe that's normal that the date gets set and then it just keeps getting pushed out and pushed out with all the appeals. I'm just not used to seeing it or hearing of it that way. So he's going to stay at Greenhaven, the same place where he had killed Donna Payant. But this time they put him in a special unit named Unit of Condemned Person or UCP for short. So apparently he was confined to a six by 10 cell, but he had access to television. He had access to radio 24 hours a day. He could also leave his cell and enter an exercise yard that was about 20 square yards, but he was allowed in the exercise area gives any time between 8.30 a.m. and 3.30 p.m. But he wasn't happy with this

arrangement. And his attorney sued the state for violating his civil rights. Smith even testified at a three-day hearing, but again, the judge wasn't having any of it struck down the lawsuit. At the same time, Smith's legal team was appealing his conviction and he was busy talking to the media, proclaiming his innocence. He had a laundry list of reasons why Donna Payant was murdered. None of them had anything to do with him. Many of them centered around the theme that Donna was killed. by a fellow prison guard or fellow prison guards at Greenhaven because she knew too much. She had learned about some type of corruption going on at the prison and had to be silent.

This is what, you know, Lim was telling everybody. Now, how he knew that, I have no idea. And how did Lim Smith explain the bite mark evidence that was produced at trial? He said that it could have been made from a mold. after Donna's death to frame him. Many people can speak truth for you. When you speak at yourself, you feel more relief. And the whole truth is the matter is like,

we understand, they know what they did. You know, it's like he couldn't even lift his head up. So it's a thing where, you know, it's no doubt. This is the first degree homicide conviction. They intentionally framed me. And they knew that they were doing it at that time. And like I've told everybody that's been in here, it says, you don't have to believe me.

But anything I tell you, I can show you. I have documented records, right? I have transcripts and everything else. What people fail to realize, you have a local pathologist named Dr. Badden. You have a local dentist named Dr. Katz. Now, Dr. Badden performed the first autopsy. And he said on the autopsy, he found two areas, right, that might be human bite marks. And that was on the nipple area of Donna Payne's body. He took the tissue and called him Dr. Katz, a local dentist, and showed Dr. Katz the tissue.

Dr. Cassidy, yeah, well, that might be either animal or human bite marks. Then they call in the top guns from New York. Dr. Batted, all of a sudden he finds a sexual trauma to the woman's rectum. He finds an area interest that wasn't there. And in the meantime, before he comes down, John Porch has given the state police teeth molds that were taken in 1977. Right. Other paraphernalia to set up a modus operandi. The district turned from Albany County.

has done the same thing. So when they came down for the second autopsy, they're prepared. And all of a sudden, we have an area of interest. And during the first hearing, and Dr. Levine testified, like, he really told the story. He said, the area of interest is the same on Marley Wilson and Donna Pant. He said, let me smith's teeth and not changed since 1977. I've had a tooth pulled out since then.

So that means there should have been a toothless, but they were the same. And the only way it could be the same if they were used. Made by the mold, right? And the mold, as Dr. Sofer, the head pathologist of West Virginia, he said, well, this is a teeth mark. He said, well, it goes straight in. Human mouth cannot bite straight in. Dr. Luntz, he did numerous demonstrations in court.

He showed where he took the mold and alley wax and pressed it straight in. He took it in wax and pressed it straight in and came out with a teeth impression. So I know it was kind of long gives, but I wanted to have at least one clip of Lim so everybody could hear him. That clip is kind of strange to me because, you know, at some points, he sounds like he's well-spoken. And at other points, it sounds very rambling. Like I wasn't sure exactly what he was talking about.

Right. But the gist of it is that he believes he was framed and that they used the mold from his bite mark that was on Mary Lee Wilson's body and purposefully used it to make a similar bite mark on Donna Payne's body. That's the gist of it, right? Now in the testimony, the, you know, the forensic dentist, uh, Dr. Levine, he said that six or seven of the teeth matched. So again, I don't know what the, the thing is about having a tooth pulled or, or whatever, but I just always like to be able to hear from these guys. when you know when you can right he also talks about and says that you know evidence existed that would exonerate him

but it was held back by the prosecutor again he talked to a lot of people he talked to you know a lot of the media and if you think about it at that point what do you have to lose you know throw everything out there throw it against the wall and see what sticks in one interview he said i've been in jail all of my adult life so who the hell cares. I mean, really, would you like to be my friend? Think about it. Would you like to know all about me? No, I'm not trying to make myself out as a good guy. I've done some foul shit in my life, pure and simple. But that doesn't mean I've done it all my life, everything they say I did. So not all of the foul shit, Gibbs, just some of the foul shit. And you pick and choose which of it he did. Now, on July 2nd, 1984, the New York State Court of Appeals overturned his death sentence, and they converted it to a fourth life sentence.

He was eventually moved to Green Meadow Correction Facility in Comstock, New York. Prosecutors were set to appeal this ruling by the state court of appeals, but they dropped it after they found out that Governor Mario Cuomo was opposed to Smith's execution. They basically said it would have been a waste of time and money because even if they won, Cuomo would most likely never let it happen. Limbsmith is now 77 years old and has essentially been in prison for what, Gibbs, 60 years. Yeah.

He had like I said, one or two years out, but. Otherwise, he was always in? For about 60 years. And he's housed away from the general population at five point. correctional facility in New York. He technically is eligible for parole in 2028. And he would be 87 years old. Right.

But given what we know that he's done, I just, I can't imagine they would ever let him out. But every year, they hold a service at the Green Haven correctional facility in Donna Pan's memory. And one member that was in charge of the service was quoted as saying, we do it to pay our respects to the payant family and to a corrections officer who paid the ultimate price. It should also serve as a reminder to management and staff alike that we can never become complacent. So you think about that Gibbs. We think a lot about police officers and how dangerous

that job is. Essentially, a lot of those individuals, when they leave the house, they're putting their life on the line. You just never know what's going to happen. You just never know what's going to happen. These folks that work at these correctional facilities, it's a very dangerous place. Got to worry about being stabbed, chanked, spit on, a riot breaking out. Feces thrown on you. I mean, I guess I don't think about it that much, but it is a very dangerous job. So that's it. That's the story of Lemuel Smith.

And it's one of those Gibbs that I know gives you heartburn because of the in and out of prison. second, third, fourth, fifth chances and continuous murder. I know that drives you up a wall. Oh, it does, man. All right, we got some voicemails. You want to hear those? Yes, here. Hi, guys.

My name is Kate Marischard. I'm calling from, actually, from Canada, from Ottawa. And I just want to say I absolutely don't be a podcast. I'm very much a true crime fanatic. And I'm just started listening to it, and I'm jumping around within your episodes. But you guys are fantastic and I'm really loving it all. And I do appreciate everything you do. And I look forward to listening to the rest of your episodes.

And thank you so much for everything that you're doing. It's awesome. Have a nice night. Thanks, Caitlin. Yeah, we appreciate that. We love when new people, you know, find the show and start binging and, you know, you can listen in order. You can jump around.

Play them backwards. Yeah. Gibby says some crazy shit if you play them backwards. That's right. Play it backwards. Hey, Mike and Gibby, this is chef in Memphis, Tennessee. I'm taking a walk in the woods, listening to your podcast, and just really enjoying it.

You guys do a great job. I contribute to you guys on PayPal or whatever, whatever, the Patreon. Anyway, really appreciate it. Hope you have a nice summer. Keep you on time checking. You ever feel like when he says he's walking in the woods, he's leaving out the park that I've got a body over my shoulder, a shovel on my other hand,

and I'm just trying to find a good spot for the body right now, guys. but I love the podcast. You guys are great, you know. Well, if I didn't know Shep the way I do. You know, I know what Shep does for a living. He's a professional. I think we're okay. Well, that sounds like a professional.

I also think Gibbs that Shep is smart enough not to have his cell phone on and specifically be talking on it. Unless it's a burn phone. You mean like a, is that like a burner phone? Like a burner phone? You called it a burn phone. Yeah. Burn this phone after you use it.

Area code 427. No, Shep's an awesome guy. He sent stuff in, and, you know, we've corresponded. But, yeah, I think Shep's smart enough to know you can't have your cell phone on if you're going to do something crazy like that. Not that he would. He's a professional. He is. Hey, guys, it's Butch calling from Nashville.

Really enjoyed the show. Metch at CrimeCon this year. I'm looking forward to seeing you back there next year. I'm listening to the Raffa family murderers. And you referenced the fact that Sebastian was, uh, caught having sex with his attorney during a visit. And after she was replaced, he got a, quote, dream team. I think maybe he had the dream team when he had the attorney that he was having sex with

and then had to settle for something else. That's just my opinion. Maybe we look at things differently. Anyway, guys, really enjoy the show and keep your own time ticking. I'll let you handle that one, Burke? You don't want to reply to that one? I need one of those drum shot. What do you call it a rim shot?

I think that's what he had. But Butch has a good way. looking at it, I guess. Yeah. There's different ways to look at it. There is. Hey, what's going on, Mike and Gibby? My name is Carlisle.

I come from Massachusetts, and I was just calling to tell you guys that your podcast is great, and I am in love. I deliver pizzas, so you guys like keep me entertained on this lonely road. I just wanted to say

that I am Teen Gibby. I'm Team Fergie, too, but I'm a little bit more Team Givie. And I'm still waiting on an Ed Kemper episode. What's going on, guys? Unless you've already released one and I haven't seen it. But I'm pretty sure I've listened to every single episode. Well, anyway, yeah, you guys are awesome. Have a good one and keep your own time ticket. All right. So he's a little more team Gibby. Just a little more.

Just a little more. He did deliver our pizza that we had tonight, though. Because I had to go pick it up. You did. And had to open my own wallet. You were a real man tonight. I was. There was some man stuff. I did. Lay that wallet down. Pick the pizza up. Pick it up. Paid for for the pizza. I know. Delivered it. Delivered it. Set and ate with my family.

I know. Things I do. But we appreciate that voicemail Carl out. So Ed Kemper. We've been talking about Ed for a little while. Yeah. Big Tall Ed. I'm fascinated with the Mine Hunter show and the guy that played Ed in there.

Yeah, he did a good job. I don't know. Ed might be coming up pretty soon. Got some special things happening soon. Yeah. We've got some milestones coming up. Yeah. We'll just leave it at a time.

that. I think you can figure it out. Maybe. If you're a real detective. If you're a lover of true crime, you can figure out that we're on episode. Whatever it is. Whatever. What episode did I say it was?

95. Yeah, you're right. Yeah. Yeah, episode 95. So do the math. So 100 is coming up. Well, now you just told them everything. They don't have to do anything.

No, I didn't tell them what it means. He just said, I just said some good things are going to be happening. You're like, yeah, episode 100 coming. Well, that is one of the good things. We're getting new chair. So like episode of 104 is going to be something really cool. Episode 97. Then again, we should, like throw them off.

Well, maybe. I said maybe. Yeah, that's true. I didn't commit to anything. Yeah, you're right. All right, Gibbs, let's dip into the mailbag. Let's do it. We had one thing.

It came all the way from a suburb of Melbourne, Australia. Really? Yeah. Boy, mighty. Karen Parker Holt sent a Harley chip from the Ringwood. Well, the Ringwood. Yes. It's a horrible accident, man.

I'm telling you. It's horrible. It's better than getting a ring worm. That's terrible. That's better than ring worm. That's terrible. Ringwood is better than ring worm any day. Charles Barkley says that is terrible.

That is terrible. But we appreciate that, Karen. I do especially. Thanks, Karen, for Mike. Since Gibby doesn't have a Harley. Yeah. He's jealous. He wants one.

Maybe one day. I'll be a big boy. But we love everyone. We appreciate all the support we get. We appreciate everyone listening. We do. Telling your friends. You know, if you haven't, go out, subscribe to the podcast.

We don't say it a lot, but give us a five-star rating if you like the show. There's a lot of things, a lot of different ways to support the show. Jump on Patreon for those two bucks a month. Keep telling your friends about the show. They're knocking your neighbor's door. Another great way. Tell your kids teacher at your next teacher conference. If you're like Gibby, just take random people's phones and say, hey, listen to this podcast and actually put it on.

It's a really cool way to meet people at their grocery store. Yeah, they love it. Yeah. All right, that is it for another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.