True Crime All The Time - Leonard Lake and Charles Ng

Episode Date: February 6, 2017

Leonard Lake and Charles Ng paired together to become a deadly pair of serial killers in California in the 1980s. They held captives in a homemade bunker until they would ultimately murder them. Their victims included men, women, and children. One of the most chilling aspects of their crimes is that they videotaped much of them. The police would ultimately discover the bunker and the remains of at least 11 victims. The count could be as high as 25. The story gets really crazy when the police are finally able to catch up to the pair. Join Gibby and I as we discuss the details of this fascinating case. Lake and Ng may be two of the most twisted individuals we've ever covered. Visit our website at http://truecrimeallthetime.com. You can support the show by going to our Patreon page at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetime. And please tell your friends who enjoy true crime about the podcast and take the time to rate/review us on iTunes.     An Emash Digital Production See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

everyone and welcome to episode 13 of true crime all the time. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime. Ghibi Gibbs. What's going on today? Hey, how's it going, man? Good. I'm doing good. Good.

So we just want to make sure that everyone knows about our other podcast, true crime all the time unsolved. You know, we've released a few episodes of that now. It's really doing well. We appreciate everybody coming over from this podcast. But if you haven't checked it out, definitely do that. All right, Gibby, we have two new Patreon sponsors. So I want to give a big shout out to Lindsay and Gwen. Their patronage is very much appreciated.

And listen, anyone can help support the show on Patreon. Just visit our website at True Crime All The Time.com to find out all of our information. and you know what, please, if you like the show, the best thing you can do is tell a friend, word of mouth, definitely goes a long way. And also, you know, go out to iTunes and give us a good rating. That definitely helps us continue to move up the charts. I know it's one of those things that a lot of people don't like to take the time to do. But, you know, if you're a big fan of the show and you want to help support us, that's one thing. That's one way.

It doesn't cost a dime. Just go out there, give us a good review, and it really helps a lot. All right, Gibby. Are you ready to talk about Leonard Lake and Charles Zang? Sick, man. I'm thinking these may be the two sickest individuals. Pretty disturbing. We've covered.

Yeah. And that's saying something because we've covered some, you know, sick bastards. It's appropriate for this episode number, so. It is episode 13, isn't it? Yeah. Maybe I should have skipped that. like they do in an elevators. Elevators, in hotels.

Yeah. Yeah, it's too late now because I already said it. To start, I want to play a small clip of Leonard Lake. For those of you that don't know, he liked to film himself. And I think that's part of what makes this case pretty disturbing. And it's also a big part of what helped when it came time for the trial. Right. Right.

So let's hear a little bit from Leonard Lake. Good evening. So Sunday on October, 22nd, 23rd, something like that, very close to my 38th birthday. And I'm starting this tape without script or without any real organization of what I want to say. But I do feel I need to explain. What I want is an off-the-shelf sex partner. I want to be able to use a woman whenever and however I want. And when I'm tired or bored, or not interested,

I simply want to put her away, lock her up into the room, get her out of my sight out of my life. A slave, there's no way around it. Primarily a sexual slave, but nonetheless a physical slave as well. I believe that I can, if I can construct a holding cell, a place where I can put such a woman, a facility that is so stark and so empty, so cold, so quiet, so totally removed from the world, that I can quickly condition a young woman to cooperate with me fully. What you heard there is pretty disturbing. And that was some mashups of a bunch of different clips from some of the videotapes that they were covered.

Yeah, I mean, obviously this guy's sick. Yeah, he's definitely disturbed. From the things that he's describing. And for sure, Gibby, he's got no respect for women whatsoever. Zero. That was plain to hear from the audio. But let's talk a little bit about Leonard Lake. You know, he was born in San Francisco, California, October 29th, 1945.

His parents separated when he was about six years old. And that caused him and his siblings to have to go live with his maternal grandmother. By all accounts, he was actually a pretty bright child. But he had some weird obsessions that started at a really, early age. He did. Yeah. I mean,

he was kind of encouraged by his mom. I think his mom and his grandma. It was just, it was very strange. He was obsessed with pornography. Yeah.

But, I mean, they, they, they were encouraging him to take photographs of new girls. Right?

Of his sisters, even. Sister, cousins. Yeah. It was, and then, like you said, and then his obsession

turned into pornography, so, such a young age. It was, it was even talked about that Lake extorted sexual favors from his sisters. I'm not sure what kind of extortion techniques he was using at such a young age, but he enjoyed killing small animals.

Right. And I don't know if there's, like we talk about, there's not many of these sick killers that we've talked about that haven't had something like that in their background. Some of these weird perversions, whether it, be now this is the first first one that I think we've had where somebody was into pornography at such a young age I mean this this is a kid well yeah I mean he's getting sex favors from his sister to protect her from her her and his older brother I mean yeah I don't know it's it's it's

it's a strange makeup of a family but yeah and I know it's kind of like a broken record we talk about on a lot of episodes right you you've got to delve into the childhood somewhat because you want to know at least what could have caused the wiring to go bad. Yeah. And here again is a bunch of stuff in Lake's childhood that definitely could have been the catalyst for what is to occur later. Right. So he attends high school and then in 1964, Lakin lists in the Marine Corps. He's, 19 years old. You know, he actually serves a couple of tours of duty in Vietnam or Vietnam,

depending on how you like to say it. I believe he was some kind of radar technician. Radar operator. Yeah, radar operator. But something important happens during this time period as well because this is when he's first diagnosed as with a schizoid personality disorder. Right. And I don't know,

Gibb, if you read this or not, but there was a little thing I read that said that mental illness ran in every generation of the late family. Really? So it didn't say it skipped a generation. It said every generation. Right.

Again. Well, I mean, he had two years of therapy when he was in the service. Clearly it didn't help. Yeah, I wanted to, I did, I wanted to look up SPD or the schizoid personality disorder. Right. Just to give the audience a little background on it.

But it is a personality disorder. It's characterized by a lack of interest in social relationships, a tendency towards a solitary or sheltered lifestyle, secretiveness, emotional coldness, apathy. Effected individuals may simultaneously demonstrate a risk. elaborate and exclusively internal fantasy world now as we're going to see that's Leonard Lake absolutely it is because the things that happen he's into fantasy he's oh yeah he's you know apathetic especially towards women and so I thought that

was important that you kind of talk a little bit about this SPD and eventually it gets some discharged from them service right yeah That's what causes his discharge. Yeah. So, I mean, and as you talked about. 71, he gets out. He,

like you talked about, he does go through psychotherapy. Yeah, two, two years of it, you know. Apparently either, you know, he was going through the motions

or whatever it was, but it didn't. But it got him out. I mean, and they don't, right, they don't really say the exact reason for the discharge.

They just know it's mental related, so. So, so after the discharge, he's back in regular, as a civilian. At this point, he's in San Jose, California. He's attending San Jose State University,

but only for one semester. So, I mean, he can't even finish basically one semester of college. Yeah, doesn't keep his interest, I guess. Yeah. You know, what I read was he was really obsessed with this San Francisco hippie lifestyle to the point that he settled in with this hippie commune. I've seen that. in the early 70s.

And he marries a girl, I think, from from the commune in 75. Yeah, they're all into that free love and some freaky sex stuff. But this is eight years, right? We're not talking, he wasn't there. He was in, he was in this commune probably longer than or about is the same time that he served in Vietnam. Oh, yeah, yeah. It was a long time, eight years. Yeah, probably longer, yeah.

I think you were going to touch on something there about the freakiness. I just think it's really, you know, even back in the free love days, right? I mean, it was weird for me, you know, because, you know, he got a real big high off of the fact that he loved filming bondage scenes. And it kind of goes back to, you know, what you talked about, kind of his condition. But he really liked filming those bonding scenes. But the weirder part was for me... Did I say bonding? Did I say bondage?

First you said bondage, then you just said bonding. Yeah. Those are very two different terms. Let's go with bondage. Yeah, it was definitely bondage, sadomasochism. You know, it goes back to what we talked about. He does have something about pornography, whether it's you call it an addiction, a sickness, but to the point where, you know, he starts making his wife star,

in these bondage pornographic movies. Right. Sometimes with her. Sometimes with other women where she's watching. Yes. And I think that's what I read

was after that she, the marriage kind of broke up. Yeah. She wasn't end all that, even though apparently for a while she was. Maybe she wanted to try to appease him or something. About eight years. He's living in this hippie commune.

And this is a place called Yucaya in northern California. Haven't been there. It's shocking that you haven't been there. You know, in 1980, Lake gets charged with grand theft. He rips off some building materials, I guess, from, it sounds like a construction site. But he gets off easy for whatever reason, you know, he gets a year probation. So there's kind of basically a slap on the hand. I mean nothing.

He didn't serve. Time, I don't even think. No, just here's your probation. Don't do it again. Pay a fine, maybe, or whatever. And so the next year, he actually gets married again. He's going to try it out one more time. Yeah.

And this woman, Clara Balaz, I believe is how you pronounce her last name. I believe that's right. And he meets her at a Renaissance fair. And Gibby, you know if there's one thing that I always say, don't marry a woman that you meet at a Renaissance Fair. That's right. How many times have you heard me say that? That's like rule number three, I think, or four. Now, somebody out there, they met their partner at a Renaissance fair and I'm going to get a nasty email. My daughter loves Renaissance fair. I didn't say don't go to Renaissance fairs. Right. I said, don't marry someone you meet at a Renaissance fair. It's a joke.

Well, I don't want the nasty emails. No. But the thing about this, right, is that he not only meets her there, They live like that, right? They start, they're wearing the medieval costumes and the horns from goats or something and use the horns as part of their costumes to be unicorns. Sounds pretty freaky. Yeah, I mean, they do some weird stuff. So, I mean, they got the medieval costumes and they got the unicorn stuff running around. And they're really into it.

They're really digging it, you know? And it's just to me it's that, what did you call it, that fantasy world, that... Part of the SPD, right? Yeah, SPD, exactly. Yep. I think that's correct. One thing I didn't mention is that his wife's nickname was Cricket. And Cricket kind of be, even though they don't stay married very long, leaves him.

And she's starring in these porno movies too, I think, at one point. Right. It's probably a must when you marry him that you have to do porno. That's almost like part of the package. Right. Bondage. But at some point, she gets tired of, you know, his crazy behavior. Like you said, I think he's getting into at this point this whole survivalist type. There was a lot of that I read about that. You know, he's stockpiling weapons.

Oh, yeah. He's into this whole impending nuclear. and remember this is Cold War right early 80s oh yeah I mean that was that around that time where you had that you had that you know that part of the country and there was a big movement there was a big movement a lot of people would go to their buying land and and big groups of people would buy acreage together up in Montana and they yeah they would buy legal arms and was a lot of stuff on the news back then where they would raid these ranches up in Montana.

So he had it in parts of California, parts of Montana, probably all over the country. Everybody was worried. He was doing something similar. I think he was selling pot, drugs to, he was selling buying and selling guns probably to, you know, kind of to make money. But, you know, cricket is kind of, and we'll talk about it a little bit later, but, you know, we played the small version of. of Leonard Lake from the, what becomes known as the M-Tape.

Right. And Cricket is on some of the tapes as well. So I want to play just a little bit of her. Let's see. We talked about underage performers. And I've seen some awkward people looking at a little 14, 16-year-old. I can't beat. But I would like watching them do something interesting.

I know that was a little hard to hear, but basically she's talking about underage girls. There was the theory that she helped lure some of the people that will come to talk about. So I don't know. On there, she didn't sound like she was what I mentioned as far as tired of Leonard and having to star. I mean, she sounded like she was more of a participant. Participant. Willing participant. Yes.

and that's that's something i mean we don't talk about her a lot in this right but ultimately she's granted immunity when when everything goes down and so there was a lot of talk on the internet and i don't know how much you read about it but that it was strange that she got it because some of this stuff on these tapes pretty crimminating right yeah just like what you heard yeah didn't make it sound like she was being forced to do some of these things that we're going to talk about. And these tapes are all disturbing. You know,

they're on M tapes or the Operation Miranda tapes, right? Right. But they're definitely disturbing, especially, I mean, even though they were made back back that long ago, I mean, the quality of the videos and the tapes are fairly good. Yeah, now that one, the audio wasn't as good on that one,

but yeah, I mean, it must have had some decent equipment for the time. Yeah. And, you know, we may talk about why that is. All right. So it's around this time that Liner Lake, he places this ad in this Wargamer's magazine in 1981. I'm trying to think of any Wargamer magazine.

I never heard that. But see, that could that could have been one of those like, what was that real big one? Soldier of Fortune. Yeah. It could have been some kind of survivalist magazine that was not mainstream. or something like that. It could have been just a California thing too. I don't know.

So at this point, he places his ad. Well, he gets somebody answers that ad. And it is his future partner in crime, Charles Ng. So we got to talk about Ing because he's the second player in this. He's just as warped. Yeah, in this duo. And Charles Ng was born in Hong Kong in 1961. He was actually the son of a wealthy Chinese executive.

And, you know, as a child, though, Ing was disciplined and abused by his father pretty harshly, it's said. Yeah, and his dad even talks about that at trial, right, about how he beat his kid. Yeah. Trying to use that as a reason why his kid did what he did. Yeah, Ing was described as a loner, was expelled from a bunch of different schools.

Well, he went to a... private school and stealing from the kids there, you know, so. Yeah, I think. Troubled. I think, yeah, after he was arrested for shoplifting at around age 15, that's when his father sent him to what you were talking about, this boarding school. It was actually in England. Yeah.

And it wasn't very long after he got there that he, like you said, he was expelled for stealing from other students and they shipped him back to Hong Kong. Kong. Yeah. And, you know, Ng moves to the United States on some type of student visa in 1978. And he's actually studying biology at the College of Notre Dame, not the Notre Dame, but the College of Notre Dame in Belmont, California. And pretty much just like Leonard Lake, he lasts about one semester. Yeah, very short-lived. So he, you know, he does the, the tries the different school thing, doesn't work out. And then, you know, he gets in a little problem with some hit and run incident when he's,

when he's in California. At that point, his only answer is that he ends up joining the Marines, right, to try to get his life turned around. He's trying to give this a chance. This is in the round 79. And, but then he gets into trouble. He, him and two other Marines are caught stealing. about $11,000 worth of automatic weapons from a Marine arsenal in Hawaii.

And he finds himself under arrest. And I'm thinking $11,000 worth of automatic weapons. Today, that would probably be one weapon. Yeah, I was going to say. But back then, I'm guessing that was an arsenal. I don't really even know how much that was back then because I have to imagine those are pretty expensive. Yeah.

But I guess it depends on what kind of what kind they're talking about. Right. So he's under arrest, and of course, you know, they do a psychiatric evaluation. Say that again. Yeah, yeah. My throat got stuck there for a minute. But so he does the evaluation. And during the evaluation, he talks about assassinating certain people in California.

So, I mean, he's starting to show a little bit of, what's the word there, Mike? Little psycho. Is that the fantasy? I mean, I know what you're saying because apparently he claimed that he had assassinated somebody. Yeah.

And that's where somehow he's able to escape the custody from them. And he flees. And then it kind of brings us up where we talked about, you know, he answers this ad. I don't know,

there's a few other things that you probably want to, you know, talk about him. But I just think it's, again it's strange and they kind of have they have some similar pass right in the beginning well they do I mean obviously they both had probably less than or let's just say bad childhoods right they they gave college a chance that didn't work right they both were in the marines so they had a lot

in common Leonard lake was like this raging racist he did not like African Americans He did not like Hispanic. No, he didn't. He had an issue with all of them, but yet he meets this Charles Ng. He's totally fine. They're fine. They get along famously somehow. And I don't know if that's a military thing because of that or because of the underlying,

how sick these two are that somehow they just hit it off that way. And I don't know what the ad said. I wish I could see a copy of the ad that he answered to. And maybe somebody out there has that information. I couldn't find it. Yeah, I couldn't either. I would love to know what the ad actually said and what drove him to answer that ad.

I just want to make sure I understand. He's deserted the Marines because he was facing probably some type of court-martial situation. Right. He makes his way back, because he's in Hawaii, right? when this happens. He makes his way back to California, and this is where he's hooked up with Leonard Lake.

Yep. And this is like 1982, we'll say. Right. This is the point where I believe that the federal authorities come in and raid. Yeah, because they've been collecting legal firearms. Right. We know Leonard's been doing it for.

Yeah, he's been stocked on them. I don't know if Ing started when he got there, or he was just kind of. kind of helping out and just was there and all these weapons were were already stockpiled. But, you know, the authorities come in. They seize a bunch of legal weapons, explosives. Again, somehow, this is a common theme for me that I don't understand. You know, people are able to, I don't want to say get away.

So Leonard Lake is released on Bond. Right, about six grand. He jumps bail. Yep. And takes off. But this is a common theme where people are, you know, he's let off on probation. And now his bail's only $6,000. He's able to just.

And he runs and flees and walk away. I think his second wife at that point's kind of pissed off. Yeah. And I know that somehow she divorces him without knowing where he's at, right? So there's a process through the courts that she can do that. But, you know, and we'll get to it later, but she remains friendly with him. but he's on the run because he's a fugitive right

and they catch him he's denied bail you're talking about ing yeah what did I say ing no you just didn't say anything I said oh yeah I'm sorry yeah so so Ing is he's a fugitive and he was denied bail

he's actually returned to the Marines yeah and he has to negotiate some type of plea with them for what he did before he left and then on top of that he's got this firearms issue that he has to deal with him.

So I believe they make some type of compromise on a sentence with the military police. Yeah, I think it was 18 months that he did in Leavenworth, which is no joke. That's some serious time. Leavenworth is a... That's labor-labor-like federal penitentiary. Right. But 18 months, and then he's paroled and dishonorably discharged. that goes back to why such a short period of time for what he did but we have that all the time

on these discussions yeah everything it doesn't matter what sentence you get very rarely do they ever do a fraction of it yeah so and then and then you see they keep doing something else and they get in trouble for that and it's a small sentence and then they just keep on until they do something that lands them on this show is basically you know how how it seems to work. All right, Gibb, so at this point, Ing is released from prison, from Leavenworth, and immediately he reaches out to contact Leonard Lake.

All right, so at this point, Mike, what we know is that Leonard Lake, he's decided to move, and he's settled in on these about two and a half acres of woodland property near Willsieville, which is, is that Calaveras County, California? Yeah, I think it's kind of somewhere like east of San Francisco.

Yeah. To give some kind of reference. And I guess, you know, he's at this property and he's kind of got the help of his neighbors. And they're doing, they're building like a bunker next to the cabin that he's at. Pretty sturdy bunker at that. And they're stockpiling illegal weapons. So, I mean, he's kind of a repeat behavior there. He's just going back to that.

Yeah. And I guess he's got some of this. pretty nice stolen video equipment as well. So, Ing joins him. Yes. But there's something that we have to talk about that may have already happened or that we believe already happened before In gets there.

Right. And that's the fact that Lake has committed, already committed a couple murders. Yes. He's killed his brother Donald. And he's killed his best friend. well I should say his best friend his friend and what was his best man right at his wedding whose name was Charles Gunner and basically what I read was he he was stealing their money

but he wanted Gunner's identity and so he's already done that in gets there and then really it kind of just takes off from there because over the next year Lake and Ing become this pair And this is where they start to indulge in this fantasy world, which we talked about, of rape, torture, and murder. So I think we have to talk about how they get caught and then kind of move backwards. Yeah, I think that's probably the best way to go about it. I think it works best that way. Yeah, I agree. And so, granted, they've already committed all these crimes.

Right. And so we're moving, we're fast forwarding up to June 7th. second of 1985 and it's at this point that ing is um and we we are we've already talked about his childhood he he's been caught stealing a bunch of times yeah it's a compulsive behavior he's like a kleptomaniac exactly right so he goes into this um hardware store or lumber place or some type of place and he steals a vice yeah that i think they you know i don't know 50 60 bucks yeah something like they're um A lot of money back then.

Sure. Although a vice is kind of usually pretty heavy. Seems like a weird thing to steal. Exactly. He steals it. He flees the scene. You know, at one point, Leonard Lake,

he drives back to the store and he attempts to pay for this vice. You know, by then, the police were already there, right? Because they'd been called for the shoplifting. But Lake, you know, Lake's there now.

Ing's gone. He's already taken off. And what I had was, that, you know, the officers asked for Lake's license. You know, he's attempting to pay for a stolen item. Why is he doing that? Right. So obviously they're going to question him. He gives them a driver's license, which has the name Robin Stapley on it. But the photo on the driver's license really doesn't look like Leonard Lake at all. And Robin Stapley turns out to be a San Diego man that was reported missing by his family several weeks earlier.

The police then searched Lake's vehicle. They find a gun that's equipped with a silencer in the trunk. And just based off that, they arrest him. They got him in custody now. He gave him a false identification. Right. The license plate also on Lake's vehicle is registered to Lake. But the vehicle itself is registered to somebody.

completely different. A man named Paul Kozner. And Paul Kozner had disappeared in November of 1984. So all this is not nothing's jelling. Adding up. He's given

him two things or, you know, he's in possession of two things that match people that have gone missing. Right. So he's got a, he's got a gave a name that's not, that's not matching.

up. They've got the car. Is not matching up. Not matching. And then they got a license plate that's another name, which happens to be his actual name. Right. So. But they use the, the registration, which is his. That was the one thing that was his. Yeah. So they do a thing, you know, while they've got Lake, they do a fingerprint search. They identify him as Leonard Lake. He tells them. He admits who he is. And, you know, they're trying to figure things out, all of a sudden they noticed that he's foaming at the mouth. And they rush him to the hospital.

Basically, what happened was he had sewn some cyanide pills into his clothing to use in the event such as this that he was caught. That's crazy. And he was able to dig those cyanide pills out of his shirt or whatever sewn in little fake pocket. and he swallowed the cyanide pills. He actually made it four days. Oh, okay.

He, see, he dies, but it takes four days. And I bet you that was an agonizing four days. Well, good. Yeah, exactly. Especially after you hear what's coming up. Right.

But, all right, so, so, so, and I read on different occasions that the cyanide was sewed in his shirt. I read that it was in his secret compartment on his belt.

You know, so there was all kind of, stories out there where the cyanide actually came from. Bottom line is, yeah, cyanide. He did. He took it. And, of course, if you listened to our podcast last week, we know what cyanide can do. So, like with Donald Harvey.

Yeah, he used it to kill quite a few people. Yeah. And, you know, actually, when you say that, like a belt would seem, would make much more sense. Because a shirt, unless he's wearing the same damn shirt every day, is he sewing it every day before? And every day? Or he's not washing them. I don't know.

But either way, however he did it, he took some cyanide. He had the cyanide with him. So at this point, the information that they do have about him personally, they got the fake information, but they have some real information. And that leads them to the property in Willsyville. And when they get there, they find trucks and cars and things that belong to a bunch of different people. that are ultimately going to turn out to be victims of Leonard Lake and Charles Zang. They find his cabin, and behind the cabin they find the dungeon. So the police are searching the different structures there on this,

on Leonard Lake's rented property. And I didn't want to talk a little bit about that. You know, there was a main room that was like a 20 by 12 workshop area. had a bunch of hand tools and power tools and things. They noticed pretty quickly that a lot of the tools were found to be encrusted with, you know, dried brownish substance, which would appear to be blood. Blood, yeah.

And, you know, attached to the bench was a broken vice. And this part was really interested. So they're inspecting this room, this one room. And the detectives are looking at the dimensions of the room. and they discover that it was smaller, it was a lot smaller than it seemed when they looked at it from the outside. And they deduce from that fact

that there must be some type of hidden room inside. And they do find it. And it's basically like a plywood tool rack is instead really a door that's leading to this smaller room. Inside this room, there's a double bed. a side table books and a reading lamp. And on one wall, there's a wooden plaque with the words Operation Miranda. At first, they really were not sure what that was,

but they learned sometime later that was derived from a book called The Collector by this man named John Fowles. And they do find the book on the bookshelf. Basically, the book is about this story of, of a butterfly collector who kidnaps a beautiful woman and keeps her locked in his cellar and where the woman eventually dies. But that's not all that police would find secret-wise. So he had built some elaborate stuff in this compound bunker, dungeon, these different

buildings. So they find a secret door behind a bookcase that leads into another room. another secret room more surprises yeah and this one was very small the room was described as only being three foot three inches wide okay by seven and a half feet long it's a long narrow hallway I mean three foot is yeah I mean that's a narrow hallway that's a very narrow little room with the six foot ceiling okay so That's strange. It is.

Just weird dimensions. So, but inside here, they find a narrow bed, which would have had to have been very narrow. Yeah. I mean, I don't even know how. Two foot wide, maybe. Yeah, I don't even know how it would have had to have been custom made. Yeah. Or like a cot.

Right. They find a chemical toilet, air freshener, and a water container. Holes had been drilled into the wall for ventilation. But they, there was some type of material. on them to keep the light from coming in. So the air is coming in, but there's, he, but they got it, they got it masks to keep light because he,

I guess he wanted them, what, dark and dungy? And probably sound. So he's got some kind of baffling or material. Right. To keep the light and the sound, but somehow still allow the air. It's creepy. To get in.

Yeah, the guys exudes creepiness. So they're, they're examining both these rooms. And they, quickly find out that the window is a two-way glass. Okay. Mirror type situation. And they discover that there's a button that when you push the button, it allows the

occupants of the first room, the bigger room, to hear any sounds from within this smaller room. And basically, what they say is this was like a hostage cell. This is where people were kept. Right. and they, you know, they couldn't get out. They couldn't do anything. You know, very creepy.

Yeah. To think about. And think about the planning that, that Leonard Lake had to have gone through. Absolutely. To put that to. To think about this in his head. To get the layout that he wanted. Right.

And go back to what you talked about. And I think you mentioned he had neighbors help build some of this. Right. I'm assuming maybe he did this part on his own. I'm hoping. If not, what kind of neighbors would not question this as, yeah, what's you building here? Right. Some kind of crazy dungeon.

I think I would said something to somebody. So, yeah, I mean, very, very crazy. But I think we got to jump forward because they're searching this compound for a number of days. And it's really by what I read, not till like the fifth day, fourth or fifth. I can't remember that the first bodies are found and they find at this point you know skeletal remains of a few people that are basically complete but it looked like they'd been sawed into sections and burned explains why they needed the vice probably another vice since the other one was broken in all it was said that it was about 40 pounds of burned and

smashed human bone fragments. Wow. That ultimately they found. And they, they match it up to a, they, they could match it somehow to a minimum of 11 bodies. That's,

yeah. I do, I want to play this, this clip because I think it's, it's kind of, it's kind of chilling. What you have here, uh,

is, um, two individuals. And it appears that what they are doing is they are dropping this person into a fire. We just don't want to believe that these two men were capable of taking living human beings and placing them into a fire because we know from the fourth picture that they were awake because they were able to speak when they were placed in the fire.

Wow. So that's not good. No. Talking about torture. Right. So, you know, at first, I had thought they killed them, chopped them up, and burned them, which is bad. But now they're talking about they have evidence that they're burned, you know, they had

burned some of these people alive, which is very crazy. People not hear that. I mean, I know they're on a couple acres, but still. Yeah, you would think. You would think that you could hear the screams. Yeah. There's something very ironic that happens. And it's basically that same day that they start.

start to find all these skeletons. At 8 p.m. on that day is when the doctors at the hospital turn off Leonard Lake's life support. And he basically dies within seconds. Right. So we said he lasted

four days or so. So it's like on this fourth or fifth day that they've been searching his house that they find everything. And it just so happens that it's the same day that they turn off his life support and he dies. Too bad he.

isn't tortured a little bit longer. Yeah. No kidding. So later Gibbs, I mean, you know, we know, I think we, we mentioned it or maybe it was you and I talking about it, but they just, they find a lot of stuff, right? Right. At his place. They find a sealed five-gallon bucket and it contained a checkbook in the name of Robin Scott Stapley. They find jewelry, credit cards, driver's licenses, wallets, and probably the most important thing that they find are two separate videotapes.

Okay. Now we've already played snippets. Right. Of some of this. The videotapes had no labels and the first two. And then they find a third, which is marked M Ladies, Kathy slash Brenda.

And the first two, they, so police look at the first two and it basically shows Leonard Lake and Cricket. If you remember Cricket, that was his second wife. Right. At a Thanksgiving dinner. That was the first one, I think. The second, Lake had been filmed discussing his greatest fantasy, kidnapping a woman and enslaving her. That's what we kind of heard that in the beginning. That's what we played up front.

And it's this third one, though. this M Ladies tape, and that's what it becomes known as M Ladies for Operation Miranda. That's why we talked about that to bring it full circle. This one by far is the most disturbing, and it shows a young woman identified only as Kathy. She is chained to a chair and basically forced to perform a strip tease while being taunted. by both Lake and In another part of the video, you can clearly see Ing on the bed with Kathy while Lake is taking photographs. Yeah.

So let's listen. Now, I do want to, you know, say this is disturbing, but this is not like we talked about before. I kind of didn't put the most disturbing. being tape possible. Right. But let's listen to this. If you go along with this, cooperate with this. It would be as nice as we can to you

within the limits of keeping the prison. If you don't go along with this, I'll probably take you into bed, tie you down, break you, shoot you, and bury it. Sorry, lady. Time's up. Thank you choice. I want to be available. Someone wanted to hear. While you're here, go keep you busy.

You'll wash for us, you'll clean for us. Good for us. You'll put it for us. That's your choice in the nutshell. It's not much of the choice, unless you've got a definition. Yeah, I understand. I hear you. If there's any circumstance whatsoever that leads me to think that you're even attempting to make noise, if there's no matter as to whether I hear you or anyone else here should,

you will be whipped very severely. And tell me you understand. I understand. I'm having a little war within myself between what I want to do. I want to do and what we might call them is the decent thing to do. And for the moment, the decent thing to do is when it's up, rest. Okay, I just want you to know that I'm doing this stuff to you under protest. You care?

You'll let us know? Probably not. Why are you doing this? Because we hate you. Your baby is going to be taken away. Excuse me. I'm going to be taken away. There's a family down in dressment that doesn't have a baby.

You're not taking my baby. You got a baby's dead. I mean they got one now. That's my baby. Your baby is sound asleep, like a rock. You don't like you? What you do? If done, just pick it whatever we tell you.

Don't cut this dog. Nothing is yours now. You have totally out. Light is so hard, but you're sick. Sucker. I'm gonna pass out of an instrument light or something. You can tie up, but we won't hook you up. I have a lot of animosity things too

and I would just as soon start you out with a nice firm looking right now to make you believe how serious we are You know you hear a lot there and there's a lot of that is cobbled together And it's to keep some of the worst parts out of there obviously But what you hear is pretty bad One of the women that you hear on there She was identified as Kathleen Allen 18 years old.

She was apparently a clerk at a supermarket at a little town there close to the cabin, I think. Right. And by all accounts, she was lured up to the site by Lake who apparently told her, I don't know if he called her while she was working at this little convenience store, supermarket type place,

and told her that her boyfriend had been shot. and police were later able to put it together that Kathy Allen's boyfriend who was a man named Michael Sean Carroll had been Ing Sell in Leavenworth. Yeah, they were cell buddies, right? Yeah, so that's how, so was it Ing that knew probably had seen pictures of her

and that's what, you know, led them to pick her out what you hear most of on the tape is is a young woman named Brenda and she's the one that you hear talking about begging for her baby and you can hear Lake tell her your baby is sound asleep like a rock eventually you know you don't hear it all but they're just I mean they're just laying into her they're taunting her and they're threatening her to threatening to kill the baby right eventually Brenda agrees to cooperate. She's trying to save the life of her baby.

And if you hear the whole tape, you know, at one point you can hear her taking a shower with both lake and ing at the same time. But again, I... Very disturbing, though. It is very disturbing. Well, and what's

what's very disturbing is that they kill that baby. The husband. The baby. I know they kill the baby. I think that, yes. Lonnie Jr. Yes, you're right. And then Lonnie,

Sr. The father. And you know what? What's crazy about this one is that Brenda was like, you know, she was like their next door neighbor. Yeah, they just adjacent from the cabin. So, I mean, that's where the family lived. So, I mean, here they think that it's just a normal, you know, God, I don't want to say normal,

not normal about them, but, you know, this guy moves in. And I don't know, I don't believe he goes by Leonard Lake. I believe he, he's using, you know, Gunner's identity still. I think so. And I think it's important that you mentioned that, right? We said he killed his friend Charles Gunner because he wanted his ID. Because keep in mind, right, he's still on the lamb, I guess we'll call it.

He still wanted back from, what was it, from the weapons charge? The weapons charge. Right. Where he skipped out on the $6,000 bail. So I think that's what prompted all of that. You know, I don't know why he killed his brother. What I read was he wanted money. But I think he killed Gunner, especially for his ID.

Yeah. To use to stay hidden. Yeah, you're right. So unfortunately, you know, all these people end up becoming victims. But Brenda's killed Lonnie and then Lonnie Jr. was the baby. So they're all killed. did they tape all this stuff where did they get all this equipment from well yeah i think that's important because that leads us to the dubs family i think that's where you're going i am right yeah so right now

the search you know as they're doing the search i think they've they've got the the bodies of seven men three women two baby boys and they're up to about 45 pounds of bone fragments yeah recovered at this point along with what we talked about was just tons numerous amounts of different property that belong to these people where the dubs family comes in so yeah i think where where you're heading is you know how did lernard lake get this equipment which i think we said in the beginning for that time period if you look at the videos it was i don't know if it was professional, but it had to have been pretty high-end video equipment. Ultimately, the police find the body of the Dubbs, three members of the Dubbs family, Harvey, Deborah,

and Sean. They figure out that the three people from the Dubbs family had been abducted and killed after Charles Ang and Linderd Lake had gone to their house in. And because Harvey Dubs had advertised some audio and video equipment for sale. And so I don't know if that is the equipment that he used or he already had that, but it would make sense. It would correlate maybe. Well, yeah, because eventually the police get the serial numbers off the video equipment and they do trace it back to Dubs.

So that's kind of how they put it all together. I wasn't sure if that was positive. positively what they used to make the m tapes. Yeah, I mean, there's nothing that really says this is what was used. But I'm guessing that's the, because he's a, you know, Dubs is a professional, well, I don't want, they don't really say, but he's a photographer. Yeah. That's how he makes his living. So I'm guessing that's why we know it's probably that equipment.

Yeah. But either way, that's how they know that they killed the Dubs is because they were able to connect serial numbers. Now, there's one more victim that I want to talk about, and it's kind of out of sequence, but there was this guy named Don Joletti, and I read something about him, and I wanted to include it. We probably mentioned this back, but, you know, the FBI, when they're involved, they estimate that the kidnapping and killing spree of Leonard Lake and Charles Ing begins about a month within a month of. of their getting back together. Right? We covered that. Their reunion where Inge gets out of prison.

Right. So they don't waste a lot of time. Because I think Leonard Lake had all this planned out. Sure. He had the bunker. I think he was, I don't know if he was waiting on Ing to start everything in motion

because he felt like he needed another person. Right. But either way, it starts in earnest. within a month or so of of ing and him getting you know back together if we go back in um july of 1984 there was this man named donald jelletti he was a a san francisco disc jockey and his roommate was named richard caraza and they were both shot by an Asian man who had broken into their apartment robbed them now jilletti died

of the gunshot wound. But Richard Carraza, he survived, and he would later identify Charles Ng as his attacker. What is very significant about this is that the pistol used to kill Joletti and Woon Carraza would ultimately be found at the Wilsieville site. Okay. So that's how they connect all of this.

That's how they tie it all in together. Right. So we know Leonard, killed a couple people, but Ing also did some work on his own. Right, yeah, I mean, he did some solo acts there. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, they both were bad individuals by themselves, and they put them together.

They were just pure terror, you know, and I think that's why, you know, there were some accounts. You know, we talk about Brenda O'Connor, you know, she was in part of that tape and where she was pleading for them not to do anything to her infant son. but, you know, when she lived adjacent from what she thought was, you know, Charles Gunner, which was AKA Lake, right? You know, she actually made mention to a couple friends that she was pretty sure that she thought she saw him bury a woman, you know, out in the woods. She never said anything to police, her husband didn't believe her, thought, you know,

what are you talking about? But they were a little concerned, and that's when they invited Robin Stampley to live with them, because he was a member of the Guardian Angels back then, pretty big group of individuals that were trying to protect people on the streets, the subways and stuff like that. So she gets this Robin Stapley to share some quarters with them, and he offers, you know, to do this for free.

if, you know, by living there with them without any rent and things like that, you know, we know that he shows up missing and... And they find all a bunch of personal effects, which we mentioned. So... Right. I don't know if they were able to tie, you know, because some of these bodies were so badly... Right. Yeah, there was no way to determine how they were, you know, killed.

I don't know if they ended up being able to do DNA on them. I'm not sure what happened. you know, we know Leonard Lake's dad, but we've got to talk about Charles Eng. Because while the police are, you know, while they detained Lake and they're searching the cab and they're finding all this stuff, Ing takes off. Yep. And he's good at fleeing. Yeah, he takes off. And because obviously he knows what's going to happen.

They're after him. He apparently at one point was seen, um, board. an American Airlines flight to Chicago. He stayed there for a few days. Then he met up with some unidentified friend. I guess they never were able to figure out exactly who it was. But they traveled to Detroit. And, you know, back then, I don't know if you've ever been to Detroit.

Oh, yeah. But you know you can cross. And back then you just walked on over with no paperwork or anything. Right. But you can cross into Windsor. Really easy. And you know, you could throw a baseball basically to Windsor Canada. So that's where he crosses.

It's not long till his nasty habit, what's the word, his obsession rears its head again. Right. And that's shoplifting. Yeah. I mean, and it does amen. Yeah, something small like that. Yeah, I don't know what the...

Was that around July 6th? six of 85? That's what I got. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, he was arrested in Calgary, Alberta. Yeah. And apparently had shot a security guard while resisting arrest for shoplifting. So I mean, maybe he didn't have any money, but either that or he just really enjoyed shoplifting. Yeah. It seemed to be a trend for him. Yeah. So he was charged. So he's in Canada and he's charged and convicted of the shoplifting assault. And I guess he had a concealed firearm and he's actually sentenced to four and a half years in prison in Canada. Right.

So, you know, we know he's in prison. He does his four and a half years, right? But before they release him, you know, a Canadian judge ruled that, you know, he should be extradited to the United States for trial for 19 of the 25 charges filed against him in California. But then this is where we start getting into the, you know, the good old court systems and things like that, right? So he appeals the decision.

Dozens of appeals. A dozen appeals. And they get rejected and they go back and forth and all kind of legal maneuvers are played out to keep him from being extradited back to the United States. And I think that goes all the way up to 1991. It does. But let me ask you why. Why would Canada have a problem? and I'm thinking I'm guessing I just now figured out the answer.

Well, probably because of death penalty. That's usually why. That's normally why most of them don't. Right. Or other countries have an issue with extraditing people back to the United States. It's because in Canada, you know, is something else. And I know there's, I know we have a lot of Canadian listeners. And I hope that we'll do some Canadian cases.

They really don't put sentences the way that we do. here in the United States on certain crimes. Right. Right. So people that are convicted of murder, you know, they're able to get out much, much quicker than people here are in the United States. Right. So I guess that's why they have an issue with and probably have an issue with this extradition

is because they don't have the death penalty and they don't believe in it. And so they're fighting it. But eventually, we get him over here. But again, he's pretty good. he's a master at manipulating the system, right? You know, and he's figured out how to work the legal system in California pretty good. And he drags it out, you know, on all counts about another seven years, I believe. Yeah.

And you know what's crazy is I read that eventually, once they do get into the criminal proceedings, that this is the most costly trial in. US history, even costing more than the O.J. Simpson case. Really? Which is amazing to me. Right. Because they're not even trying Lake. He's killed himself.

Right. Right. They're only trying. And they have video. They have weapons. Oh, yeah. With his prints on it. Yeah. And I don't know what they're using to, I don't know if they're using all the, the money that was spent over the years doing the appeals and all of that as well. I did read that where they said the most costly criminal proceedings in U.S. history.

And it didn't help that. Some of the evidence was destroyed. So that didn't help the prosecutor out, right? I mean, you have this evidence that's supposed to be presented, and it was strong evidence. And for whatever reason, it got destroyed. So, again, that just helped continue his trial on. And like you said, he was kind of masterful at prolonging it. Right.

I mean, at one point, you know, he made formal complaints on all kinds of different things, that he was being treated poorly, that the food was bad. Oh, he had the wrong prescription in his glasses that he couldn't see that he needed to get the right prescription. So we need to postpone again. That he couldn't, he couldn't move forward with the trial because apparently he had to take medication for motion sickness because it was a 50-mile trip to the courthouse, and it made him drowsy. And there was actually audio that, that, where he was kind of slurring his words and they were asking him about it.

And he tried to say he was tired. Right. I mean, the guy, you know, he would just do whatever he had to do. Right. And, you know, at one point, he fired his attorneys. And I think he did that a couple of different times. Oh, yeah. He's just racking up more money for the state, right?

he filed a million dollar malpractice suit against his attorneys for incompetence. You know, at one point, he even filed a motion to represent himself, which is about the dumbest thing you can do. It's never good to go pro se. No. But, you know, and that's about the only smart thing he did is he withdrew that at some point. So, you know, I think we have to get to the trial because, like you said, they've got a ton of evidence on him.

And we got about $20 million invested at that time, right? It was a lot of money, you know. So they're moving forward, you know, Calaveras County. He's indicted on 12 counts. Now, how they came up with that, I'm not 100% sure because, but again, right, they're only trying Charles Ng. So Laconing together killed anywhere from, what did you have, Mike? I had, could have been 25.

it could have been way higher. Yeah, it varied. You know, because there was no, when you're talking about trying to measure pounds of bone and things like that. And you can't, you know, they weren't able to do the DNA to determine what each one was. Right. So I'm assuming that what they had was 12 solid counts against them, right?

Their most solid 12 that they could, they thought they could convict. But even then, there's all kinds of pretrial motions, stalling tactics. You know, he tried to sue the state and just, it's just all kinds of crazy stuff. And that delayed the trial, I think, a whole other year because he went through 10 attorneys. Yeah. Between the time the trial started and. Conviction.

Until, yeah, until the trial actually polluted, right? Right. I want to play this tape. Because we haven't heard from Ng yet. And I want you to hear, I want you to hear this tape of what Ing has to say about the infamous M tape. This tape cannot be taken, lock, stock, and barrel the way it is. This is like a free scene, you know. First scene is Lennonick with Kathy Allen with me.

The second scene was a massage scene. First scene was Lennonick talking to Kathy Allen when I'm not in the property at all. The fourth scene is Brenda O'Connor scene. of Lennon Lake Me, that's basically the totality of the tape. Because the tape only lasts, I mean, the settlement that I was involved in only last at the most 20 minutes. And the prosecution tried to tell the jury that this 20 minutes, this is the real child thing. Basically, he's trying to say that even though he's on the tape, he didn't do anything. Right.

You really can't prove by just the tape that I did this, this and this. So, but, you know, so let's jump forward to October 1998. This is, this is when we get going. It's 13 years of delays and all kinds of stall tactics. This is when the trial of Charles Ng begins. You've got, it was a big media circus. I mean, this was, this was a big deal back then. It was, it was a big case and it was covered.

And you have Charlene Hanaka, who's the, uh, prosecutor and I want to play I just think from what I heard she she did a really good job I want to play a tape for you of her what the evidence in this case is going to show is that this defendant with Leonard lake planned and committed the 12 charged murders in this case this is a chart which lists the 12 counts the evidence will show that between a time frame from July 1984 until 1985, these 12 victims disappeared from the face of the earth. And this trial will tell you the story of what happened to them. We're going to play for you. Two segments from that videotape as a means of demonstrating the evidence and in helping you understand. Were you present at the extradition hearing when Mr. LaBerge testified that you told him that you could hear on the video the sounds of handcuffs clicking.

I remember that statement he made. How would Mr. LaBerge know that you could hear the sounds of handcuffs clicking? That's not on the printed transcript, right, of them ladies? So you never talked to Leonard ahead of time about your plan to cut her clothes off, right? No, not on the tape. So you just decided on your own to cut her clothes off? right? Yes.

You told Leonard at one point that the piece was on the table, right? Yeah, I remember saying something like that. What did you mean by the piece? Oh, just wanted to let him know the gun was on the table in case Kathy might grab the gun and shoot him with it. Well, now, she's handcuffed, right? Yes. And she's got leg madacles on? Yes, I believe so.

And there are two of you and one? one of her, right? Yes. And the reason you told Leonard that the gun was on the table is because you were afraid Kathy might pick it up and shoot him? Something like that. It's never Eng's fault. He always lays the blame on someone else. He was not under the control of Leonard Lake.

He was his own person. He was making his own independent choices and doing the things he wanted to do. So I don't know about you, Gibb, but I'm convinced. I mean, although that sound bite is weird, it almost sounds like it's part of a bad soap opera.

Right. But like I liked her voice. She had a, she, I don't know, there was something about her that drew me in. He sounds like a wackadoodle. Yeah.

I don't know. There's something about his voice that, I mean, we know he was, he was, either one was. neither one of those guys were right. No, they're not right.

They're part of the most brutal, sadistic murders of all time. Yeah. But there was something about his voice that just was creepy. Yeah. Yeah, it is creepy. Anyway, they go through the trial. You know, they showed the videos.

It clearly showed that Ing was part of the torture and abuse of Kathy Allen and Brenda O'Connor. I mean, they had these M-Tapes like we talked about. Now, one thing we haven't talked about is Lake kept diaries. I don't know if you said that or not. You might have. Yeah, we talked about it. Did we talk about that?

Yeah, we brushed on it quickly. So she had tried to submit Leonard Lake's diaries as evidence, but the judge refused to admit them because he said that it bore no evidence on the case. I guess that was because it was lakes and didn't technically incriminate. But so we heard from the prosecutor. The defense, obviously, is they have to try to make a defense. Right. Let's hear from them.

No matter how many different ways they show it to you and excerpts from it, there's one thing you never see. Anybody being murdered. And you don't see Charles Eng involved in anybody's murder. No matter how many times you see him cut the clothes off Brenda O'Connor. And as offensive as that is, and I grant you it's offensive. But it ain't murder. It just isn't.

You know, and some of these, you know, and that was William Kelly. And I have to imagine he had his hands full. Yeah. Trying to mound a defense for Charles Zing. Now, one thing I do want to talk about is cricket. Because we kind of talked about it early on. She implicated Charles Zing. And it's wife number two.

wife number two she had divorced like i believe right before yeah before all this everything started yeah but um she had some some knowledge of things that happened and there there was some talk about you know she was a school teacher and like i said i touched on there was some talk about her being more of a participant in some of these things that went on later, even though they were divorced at the time. Right. You said they had remained friendly. And so she was given immunity for, you know, her testimony against, um, ing.

Now, there's only one reason you'd, you know, need to get immunity. And that's probably because you have knowledge and you probably participate. and the knowledge that you have to share about certain events. And as we heard, she was on some of these tapes talking. Right. About young girls. Right. But at one part in the trial, Charles Ng tries to cause a mistrial.

And he does it by somehow getting the phone number of one of the jurors and somehow contacting her, calling her home from the jail. That's creepy. and I have no idea how that how he did it but I have the juror talking about it. After I found out that it was in fact Charles Eng that had called me and I've been able to reach out from his cell and get into my house. And scary, he doesn't belong here. I couldn't just leave it at court anymore. It was at home with me now.

and I resentment. Well, you know, I think maybe he had help because remember he came from a very affluent family from Hong Kong. That's right. And they were there for the trials, right? They came in, they talked to the police and stuff. So maybe they had a hand and trying to help this whole trial out, you know, by participating in that. Don't know. Could have been.

Yeah. I mean, it's a theory. It's definitely a strong theory on my part. I mean, he had to have help from somebody. Right. Either inside the prison or outside or, you know, something like that. But, you know, how crazy would that be? You're a juror in one of the biggest cases in California history.

And this madman, Charles Ng, calls you one night at your home while the trial is going on. I'm really surprised that it didn't cause a mistrial. Right. Well, that's what they were hoping for. Yeah, that's what he was hoping for for sure. But I'm surprised it didn't because, you know, something like that could easily do it. So we jump forward to February 99. The trial has lasted eight months.

You know, Ing is ultimately convicted of 11 of the 12 homicides, six men, three women, two male infants. And jurors could not decide on the. 12th charge. So they deadlocked on that, but he was convicted on 11 of the 12. And like we said, his Charles Ing's prosecution cost approximately $20 million. And at the time, it was the most expensive trial in the state's history. I don't know where it ranks today. 20 million in today's dollars.

I don't know what that would be. Yeah. And I don't know if they do that by, you know, that's like comparing. Star Wars to Avatar. I don't know if they do that in Today's dollars or... Or adjusted. Right.

For inflation dollars or whatever you call it. So the judge followed the jury's recommendation and imposed a sentence of death, but he didn't have to. He had the option of sentencing ing to life imprisonment. But that's number one. That's probably how much he... or, you know, what he thought about this gruesome spree.

It's not really a spree, but you know what I mean. Brutal, sadistic stuff, man. And also, you know, I got to commend the judge for following the jury's recommendation. Which, you know, going back, this is California. And typically in California, you know, they don't really try to push the death penalty. So let's listen to the verdict. I got that. Charles Chittadang, it is the judgment and sentence of this court that you shall be punished by death.

That's penalty to be inflicted within the walls of the California State Prison at St. Clinton, California. I want to be. This car road. You can fucking give me a show trial and you fucking judge. So I wanted to play that because I don't know if you could hear it at the end. But, you know, he basically starts dropping F-bombs on the judge. Right. And, you know, starts outburst.

And we didn't, we didn't talk about this, but this was kind of a side thing. He was so crazy during this trial that I read they had, they had to fit him with some type of, it was almost like a, I don't know if it was a belt or a vest, but it was like a cattle prod. And the bailiff had a button. Oh, so they can. Keep him under control. And every time that he went, he got too crazy, they could zap him. Wow.

I mean, that's how crazy this guy was during the trial. Well, and how disruptive. Yeah. I think everybody saw those true colors during the trial. And, of course, there towards the conviction. Right. So, you know, right now, as far as I know, he's on death row at San Quentin, state prison. I don't know if or when he'll ever be.

be executed help you know Charles Manson's still on there and he's about ready to die he's in such poor health yeah we know it takes could be 30 30 years or so right so Gibby you got anything else for Leonard Lake and Charles Zing no other than the fact maybe I'll get my appetite back you know in a few days but yeah other than the fact that they were two very very sick individuals yeah yeah very sick All right, everybody. That's it for us. As always, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.