True Crime All The Time - Leonard Tyburski

Episode Date: August 19, 2024

Leonard and Dorothy Tyburski had been married for seventeen years when, in 1984, Dorothy disappeared. As the spouse, Leonard was a person of interest, but the picture was murky. The family dynamics were dysfunctional. There was talk that Dorothy had run off with another man.Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss Leonard Tyburski. Once they emerged, the details of this case were shocking. Family secrets were exposed, and members were split. Leonard Tyburski told several different versions of the events that transpired, but at trial, he claimed he was fighting for his life. You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 397 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime Mike Gibson. Give me, how are you? Yeah, I'm doing okay. How about you? I'm doing well. It's really glad to have you back in the studio. Glad to be back.

It was an adventure. I'll say that, doing the episodes by myself last week. Yeah, I appreciate it. Oh, I know you do. And it was the right thing. but definitely glad to have you back. Yeah, yep. Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shoutouts.

We had Kimberly Sutton. Hey, Kimberly. Janet Zambrano Kessler. What's going on, Zambrano Kessler? Omar Zambrano. Another Zambrano. Cannot be a coincidence. Ice machine people.

Cindy Lusk. What's going on, Lusk? It cracks me up that you still think the thing they shaved the hockey ice with is called a Zambrano. Zambrano. They're like the Zambrano like Kings. Okay. Yeah. T.T. Showbiz. What's going on? Showbiz. Kendall Mills. Hey, Kendall. Helen Radford. Thanks, Helen. Robin. Well, there's Robin. Cindy Storm. What's going on, Cindy? Alan McCush. Oh, Nisemukush. Cat. What's going on? Cat. And last or not least, Amy. There's good old Amy. And then if we go back into the vault, this week we selected David Arch. Thanks, David.

Yeah, appreciate the new support, the continued support. Right now, we have an episode out on True Crime All the Time Unsolved, where we're talking about the murders of Arnold R. Shambot and Ruby Brewer. And this is a very mysterious case that has grabbed the attention of a lot of people. It's going to be a good one to listen to it. Yeah, yeah, definitely check it out. All right, buddy. are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time? I am.

We're talking about Leonard Tiberski. His wife, Dorothy, went missing for about three years. And as you can expect, Leonard was a suspect. That's only natural. But everyone was shocked when the truth of what happened to Dorothy came out and the reason behind it. We are shocked a lot anymore, aren't we? Yeah, I don't know that we should be? we're not shocked about as much as we used to be, but there still are some very shocking crimes.

Dorothy Tiberski was born on February 6, 1948 in Detroit, Michigan. She was the sixth of seven children. Her mother, Anna, said she was a friendly child and would talk with anyone. And I know that before she passed, when I used to talk to your mom, she said the same thing about you. Absolutely. You would just walk up to. strangers talk to anyone, offer to, you know, take rides with anyone who had candy. I love the candy man.

I know. It's a wonder growing up in the 50s like you did that, you didn't get lured at some point. Dorothy met Leonard Tibersky when she was 16 years old and a sophomore at McKenzie High School in Detroit. Leonard was her biology teacher. He was five years older than her. Okay, so we have a little teacher, student, you know, relationship. We don't know when the relationship started yet.

We just know when they met. But obviously, he was a teacher who was just starting out if he was, you know, only 21 years old at the time. Did you take biology? Yeah. Is there a way to not take biology? I didn't take biology. I tested out of it. Oh, I got you.

So I didn't know. I got you. Yeah, I took biology because I just, you know, was with the regular class. Regular crowd. I wasn't three, four, five, six years ahead of where I was supposed to be. Leonard was born in New Eagle, Pennsylvania on February 20th, 1943. He was originally from the Manesson, Pennsylvania area. Dorothy arranged a date for Leonard with her older sister.

Lurane, who was Dorothy's closest friend. They went on one day, but Lorraine didn't like Lennar. So it's kind of interesting, right? We know these people are going to end up married. This is her high school teacher. She must have thought something of him and said, hey, you know, I'm going to set you up with my older sister. But they didn't hit it all. So then later, Dorothy was thrilled. When Leonard focused his attention on, her. Her relationship with a teacher gave her status among her peers, but this was obviously against school rules. Dorothy dropped out of high school after her sophomore year. Then she wasn't breaking any rules at that point. And I never saw where it explicitly said it, but you just wonder how

much this relationship had to do with her dropping out. Dorothy's mother didn't support her relationship and was honest with Leonard about her feeling. She described Leonard to the Detroit Free Press as an irritable young man obsessed with cleanliness. Dorothy and Leonard dated for three years and married on July 8, 1967, they would have two daughters named Kelly and Kim. In 1972, the family moved from their apartment in Detroit to a house in Garden City. Around this time, Dorothy's sister Carol Sutton saw Dorothy with a black eye. Dorothy tried to make light of it and said that she ran into a door.

But Carol also saw bruises on Dorothy's arms. But apparently Dorothy had always bruised easily. Either way, though, Carol was suspicious of Leonard after this. And I think rightfully so. I think it's kind of normal to think, hey, that's not okay. Something's going on here. Yeah. And this ran into the door thing, right, is something that you've heard time and time again.

Women having to come up with an excuse to, you know, explain injuries caused by their significant others. Yeah. I bruise easy. I mean, you hear that a lot too. Carol also thought that housework was Leonard's way of isolating Dorothy from the family. He had a rigorous cleaning schedule. that he expected Dorothy to follow. Whenever Dorothy's other sister surely tried to call,

Leonard would say she wasn't home or she was busy, he complained that he had to clean the house or that Dorothy was paying too much attention to her rabbits and wasn't cleaning up after them. And right away, whenever I hear that term isolated, I start to get a very bad feeling. Absolutely. Get a little knot in my stomach.

Dorothy's hobbies included raising rabbits in her garage and breeding tropical fish. Her hobbies sometimes put her off of Leonard's housekeeping schedule. And I think we do need to take a minute to talk about this, right? Dorothy's mother described this man as not only irritable, but obsessed with cleanling. Yeah. So he has Dorothy on this cleaning schedule, which I can only assume is, extremely rigorous and is probably not happy when it's not followed to the letter. I don't know if you could ever make somebody like that happy.

No, I can tell you from experience that you cannot. Not that my wife is obsessed with cleanliness, but it's very, very close. Yeah. You're, uh, what you think is clean versus what she thinks is clean. Two different things. There is a huge difference between those. Their daughter Kelly told the Detroit Free Press, my mom was always trying to find something that she could say.

This is what I do, you know, like take pride in it. She always wanted to have a hobby. And my dad wouldn't let her do anything. She would read books. And he'd get mad at her for that because reading took up time. And I'm assuming it took time away from her cleaning the house. I think that's what it comes now. to. The family moved to Canton Township, Michigan in 1974. They lived there for the next 15 years.

Neighbor said the family was quiet and noticed that Leonard was a meticulous landscaper. So it's pretty easy to see, right? This is a guy who wants things the way that he wants them and the way that he wants them is very particular. I'm kind of getting that vibe from that movie with Julia Roberts, you know, where she's sleeping with the enemy. Yeah, turning the cans, have to have the towels at a certain height. That's actually a pretty good pull. Leonard was the dean of students

and chief disciplinary officer at McKenzie High School in Detroit. High school students described him as kind, helpful, and normal. When students got in trouble, he was willing to help them and talk to their teachers as long as they were honest with him.

And you and I have done so many episodes, episodes, that it does not surprise me at all, that, you know, students would have a different view of Leonard than maybe people who knew him as part of the family would. Two different people. Maybe. Yeah. The family's home life was extremely tense and dysfunctional. Kelly told the free press that she couldn't recall a time when she was not afraid of her dad.

He was always yelling and screaming at me. And when he hit, he hit heart. Wow. You hear something like that. You know, I mean, for a kid at that time to be so scared to be living in our own home, it's just so uncomfortable thinking about it. Well, it's because it's not what we're used to, right? Home for me was a safe place.

Should be. It's not for everyone, but that's what I experienced. also, you know, dads are supposed to be protectors. They're not supposed to be the ones abusing you. Yeah. They're there to stop that type of stuff. But obviously, that's not the guy that Leonard Tiberski was. He was also verbally abusive and called Kelly stupid, a bitch, or an SOB.

When Kelly was just 10 years old, her father began talking to her about his suspicion that Dorothy was having an affair. So, I mean, just to me, that in and of itself is so strange. Okay, you start to think that your wife is having an affair. You're going to sit down with your 10-year-old daughter and talk to her about those suspicion. Yeah. It's weird.

Dorothy once had a job at a pharmacy. Leonard told Kelly that he found a romantic letter. Dorothy had written to one of the pharmacists. Kelly never saw the letter, so she wasn't sure whether or not her dad was telling the truth. Another job of Dorothy's was working at a pet store. The owner once sent Dorothy Roses as a thank you gift for her hard work, and Leonard accused her of having an affair. He also accused Dorothy of having an affair with an elderly man who helped her with her rabbit. So basically, any man that she encountered, practically, practically.

Right. It seems as though Leonard thought she was having an affair with. Kelly said about her parents' marriage. It was like they were just living day by day. I wouldn't even consider that a married life. It was a waste of 17 years. Very sad. It is sad because, you know,

when you're in that pre-marriage phase, the dating phase, everything is possible. You're dreaming about whatever you want your life. life to be. And then to find out what it really was, you know that's not what Dorothy was dreaming about. No, no. And we've heard this before about these type of guys, right? Oh, absolutely. They do all the right things in the beginning to lock you down and then they change on you. Because if they acted like that from the beginning, nobody would ever marry them. Kelly once asked her mom if she loved Leonard. Dorothy said, no, I don't think so.

Dorothy's life changed forever in February 1984 when her sister Lorraine died in a car accident. Lorraine was her closest friend and she talked to Lorraine about her marriage problems. Leonard had always been jealous of their relationship. And, you know, this is something that I just don't understand. I love when my wife talks on the phone. When with her mom, with her sister, whoever it might be, you know, that's time that I can steal. away and have a little bit of time for myself. Yeah, I get you.

I understand. I would never be jealous of my wife talking to anyone on the phone. No, talk away. Take all the time you need. Dorothy became depressed after her sister's death. According to Kelly, my dad was just like, get off of it. She's dead. You can't do anything about it.

Not that he was happy that she died, but he seemed happy that his wife would be their 24 hours a day now. Leonard and Dorothy's fights intensified. The girls once saw their mom throw an ashtray at their dad, then saw them wrestle until Leonard slammed Dorothy against the table, which broke her toe. So, you know, I think we started out kind of describing a very controlling,

isolating relationship, verbal abuse for sure. But now we're talking about, real physical abuse. And I think it had been happening for some time. Go back to the black eye and the bruises on her arm. But the mere fact that these young kids are having to watch that. That would be tough watching to see your parents getting in that type of altercation.

Yeah, it's going to be scary for kids. It's going to make them feel unsafe. Kelly said that they fought almost every day. And their fights included scratching, clawing, and pushing. Kelly found herself in the middle of her parents' disputes. But Kim withdrew. She spent a lot of time in her bedroom and often ate meals alone in her room. So, I mean, no doubt you're feeling for these young kids, for sure.

You're also feeling a lot for Dorothy because it sounds like she was going through hell in this marriage. Kim would say that she wasn't close to Kelly or her mom. Her father bought her expensive gifts, but he sometimes gave her the creeps. Kind of a bizarre thing to say, right, about your dad? Well, it is, but it's also vague. Right. And you could take that to mean a number of different things.

Kelly met her boyfriend Craig Albright while working at a local Hardy's restaurant. Craig was two years older than her. Kelly said that Craig made her feel secure, but she didn't fully trust him because he lied. Craig thought of Leonard as a tyrant, and he soon noticed the dysfunctional family dynamic. I wouldn't think it would take very long for anyone coming in from the outside.

If these fights are occurring daily, eventually you're going to see it. You're going to be there when it goes down. Eventually, Craig developed a friendship with Dorothy. Dorothy enjoyed spending time with Craig and Kelly at home and often went out to the movie with them. Kelly believed her mom envied her relationship with Craig at first as Dorothy became more attached to Craig. She behaved differently towards her daughter. For example, if Kelly had to work late and Craig couldn't come over, Dorothy got angry at her.

And that's a little strange on that. side, right? It's a little strange on that side. Well, it does give you the vibe that maybe Dorothy was thinking about Craig in a way that she probably shouldn't have been. And we're going to have to wait and see how all that develops. In September, 1985, Craig had a disagreement with his grandmother whom he was living with, and he was homeless. Kelly offered to let him sleep in their living room. But Craig's arrival changed the household dynamic even further. Craig told Kelly that Dorothy came into the living room to talk with him in the middle of the night and tried to kiss him. She asked him to take her to the store for cigarettes and would hang all over him. Okay, so I think she is

crossing a line if this really did happen. Twice, Craig went into Kelly's room to sleep next to her bed because he didn't think he could sleep in the living room. Dorothy once walked in on them while he was sleeping in Kelly's room, shouted, damn it, and slammed the door. It was like some jealousy going on. I think a lot of jealousy. But see, Leonard also noticed Dorothy's attraction to Craig. Before Dorothy went missing, Leonard told Kelly, your mother and Craig slept together.

Or they fooled around. Leonard claimed he found evidence that she was cheating. before he left for work one day, he drew a diagram of Kim's bed. When he returned in the evening, he checked Kim's room and saw that the bed was, quote, kind of messed up. Kelly looked and saw that one corner of the bed spread was slightly askew. Okay, that's going to be hard to figure out in my house because, number one, I never make my bed. I think it is an absolute waste of time.

Because you're just going to get right back in it. I'm going to get right back in it later on. And I'm always the last one to get up. That's the bigger reason. So if it was the other way around, my wife would probably make it as soon as she get out of bed. And put all the 20 pillows back on top? Oh my gosh.

Yeah. Three weeks after Craig moved in. Dorothy overdosed on pain pills prescribed by her doctor. Kim came home from work and saw her mother writing at the table. Leonard was sitting in the living room. No one spoke to her. Kelly asked what was going on. Dorothy told her, I have something I want you to sign when I'm done. I took a bunch of pills and I'm going to die. Again, I think if you're one of these kids, you don't know what is going to happen from day to day.

Kelly thought it was her fault because she didn't know how to support her mom through her depression. Kelly shouted at her dad to call for help, but he didn't move. Dorothy handed Kelly the paper, which said that the money from her sister's life insurance should be controlled by her best friend Linda who lived across the street. She didn't want Leonard to get his hands on the money. The note also said that her suicide was to be understood as Leonard's fault. This is interesting. She's putting the blame on it on Leonard. Basically, Leonard drove me to this moment. But she's involving her daughter. in this process as it's going on. I mean, just extremely strange.

Kelly ran to Linda's house for help. Linda ordered Leonard to call an ambulance. Kelly and Leonard returned home and told Dorothy help was on the way. But Dorothy put on her coat and left. Leonard didn't stop her. So, I mean, it sounds to me like at this point, he didn't give a rat's ass. No, I think he was happy. What happened to Dorothy?

the police found Dorothy a half mile from home. She was unconscious on the ground behind a bank. Dorothy recovered consciousness at the hospital when the family visited. She kissed Kelly on the cheek and kissed Craig on the lips. Okay. It's a little different on the welcoming. Well, it was said that it made Craig uncomfortable. When Kelly asked him about it later, Craig said that Dorothy told him she loved it.

Kelly wondered if Dorothy tried to kill herself because Craig rejected her. There's a lot of dynamics going on inside this family. Kelly didn't know at the time that Craig had two sexual encounters with her mother, which he would later admit to the police. Well, that changes the story up a little bit, right? Yeah, I mean, we could kind of see the writing on the wall, right? the line was being crossed, but we didn't know how much. And now we find out that it was crossed as far as you could cross it.

That's going to send a different message to the mom. You know, if you're going to act standoffish when my daughter's around, but when she's not, you're wanting to have some close time with me. Yeah, we don't know what his involvement was, you know, you can assume a lot of things. You get in trouble when you do that. you know, was it completely consensual? Was he into it just as much as she was? Craig told the Detroit Free Press that the situation was pretty bizarre, saying I was only 18 at the time. I think Dorothy

would have liked anybody she would have had there to talk to. So I think from his point of view, it was just the fact that he was there. And maybe he was not Leonard. Well, that's it. I agree with that. I think the fact that somebody was giving her just normal attention, but good attention. Not hitting. Yeah. And berating. Right. On September

28, 1985, Leonard Tiberski murdered his wife. After a heated argument that got physical, he later admitted to killing Dorothy. He first said he killed her in a fit of rage, but then later said it was self-defense.

Leonard testified that Dorothy told him she wanted him to leave for a couple of weeks and she no longer loved him. He said he still loved her and refused to leave the house. He asked Dorothy whether she was having an affair with Craig. But Dorothy refused to answer. She took a knife and fork and went downstairs to get something out of the basement freezer. Leonard followed her to continue the conversation. Once in the basement, Dorothy took plastic food containers out of the freezer.

Leonard asked again. If she was having an affair, Dorothy said something to the effect of, yes, I am. I love Craig. He's a man. You're not a man. You're a wimp. A punk. A bastard.

You're leaving. Get out of here. She threw the food containers and the knife and fork. Ed Leonard, as she said this, and then continued to throw objects at him and came at him and tried to scratch him. Now, obviously, this entire scene is coming from Leonard Tybersky. But she's really letting it all out. If it went down the way that Leonard said it did.

In a later statement, which was published by the Detroit Free Press, Leonard said he pushed her away. But she managed to grab a steak night. She had thrown and she came back at him. He was in shock and afraid. after he stopped Dorothy from stabbing him, he slammed her head into a metal beam, repeatedly. He said that after he hit her head against the beam, she became groggy. He pushed her and she fell back into the freezer.

According to Leonard, Dorothy continued yelling Craig's name, then called Leonard a bastard. And I guess my question for you Gibbs is, you know, when you hear that version of events, how true does it ring to you? I think there's some truth in there. You know, it's a better lie if you add some truth to it. Yeah. I get your point. Absolutely.

Is it implausible that she could have come after him with a steak nut? I would say no. Women had done that before. They're capable of it. But let's say that your wife had a steak nut. and you were able to stop her from stabbing you. Would you then need to slam her head repeatedly into a metal bean? No.

And I think that's the part where the story gets a little tough to believe. I get it if you were defending yourself. You know, maybe you're pushing, you're hitting even. But it sounded to me like she didn't even have the steak knife. anymore when he is slamming her head repeatedly into this metal beam and then all of a sudden she's in the freezer. Hmm. Sounds iffy. I mean at that moment your adrenaline can be pumping and rage can take over. But his story seems a little far-fetched. Yeah, it does to me too. Leonard said he then went upstairs, washed his hands and changed clothes. He returned to the basement about 30 minutes later.

didn't respond. When he talked to her, she was motionless and not breathing. Leonard said he closed the freezer and never opened it again. Okay. Wow. So first of all, if you're going to take 30 minutes, you know, washing your hands, changing your clothes, you are not too worried about your wife. No. And her condition. And then you go down, you check on her and then you just close the freezer door of honor. Well, I guess she's not going to get up. I'll just close this door here and what is is going to be. I was seeing if you're going to make fun of what I said before I try to change it. What is is going to be? Okay. A little Hamlet at you or Shakespeare. I don't. Yeah, Hamlet wrote a lot of good stuff. Soon after the fight, Leonard spoke to his neighbor and said that Dorothy left him

and was moving to Ohio because that's where everyone goes when they take off. Absolutely. Come to Ohio. He spread the word that she was having an affair with Craig. So, I mean, I think bottom line, no doubt this was a very cold act. And then I think you're starting to see him being very calculated. You know, he slams the freezer door, never to open it again. And then he starts talking to neighbors.

He starts, you know, setting up why everyone is not going to be seeing Dorothy anymore. She took off. And then also throwing in that, you know, she was having an affair with Craig. On the late afternoon of September 28, 1985, Leonard called Dorothy's mother Anna Barker and told her Dorothy's taken off. Later that day, Craig ran barefoot and shirtless into the local Harding, where Kelly was working. His hand was bleeding. He said he was washing his car in the driveway. When Leonard came out of the house and told him to leave for 30 minutes because he wanted to talk to Dorothy. When Craig returned, Leonard screamed at him to get lost.

Well, maybe there's a reason that Leonard doesn't want him around. Maybe he just doesn't want the guy around anymore. That's what I'm getting. Apparently they got into a fight, but Craig cut his hand when he smashed it against his car mirror and anger. Leonard wouldn't let him into the house to get his things and Dorothy was gone. Craig said, he feared Dorothy told her husband what was going on. During their conversation, Leonard called Hardee's and told Kelly not to speak to Craig. He ordered her to come home and then go to her grandmother's house.

But Kelly didn't want to go home. So she went to her grandmother's house instead. She and Kim spent the night there. Kelly went home the next day to get fresh clothes and realized that her dad had locked the house up. Kelly recalled to the Detroit Free Press. I looked through her back door and I could have sworn I saw something lying on the floor wrapped up in a blanket. Leonard reported his wife missing on October 2nd, 19, He told Dorothy's family that she left to live with another man on a houseboat in Toledo.

First of all, who in the hell goes to Toledo? It's a very popular area. For houseboating? No. A few weeks later, Leonard told Dorothy's family that she called to ask him to meet her at a highway restop with some of her clothes. He told the police that they met on Interstate 75. in Monroe County. He gave Dorothy clothes and money and that she would be settling in Toledo, Ohio. First of all, Toledo is not that far from Detroit. No, it's not maybe an hour.

But we know that Dorothy Tyberski is lying dead in a freezer. Yet here you have Leonard going through all these machinations, right, talking to neighbors, talking to family members, her family members, and talking to the police after he's reported her missing, saying to some of these people that, you know, he talked to Dorothy. And here's what she said her plan was. He told Dorothy's family, he met her a second time at a rest stop so she could sign their tax refund check. However, at home, He asked Kim to forge her signature on this check. Kelly became suspicious when she read a newspaper article that quoted her father as saying Kim was the last person to see Dorothy. He claimed Dorothy took a large amount of money with her and had left home before.

However, Kelly knew that Leonard told Craig. He watched Dorothy leave and he never let Dorothy have more than $40 at a time. So she doubted he would let her take a large amount of cash. Remember, he had tried to control pretty much every part of Dorothy's life. Yeah, so why would he let her have a lot of cash? Yeah, you would think that would extend to how much money she was allowed to have at any one time. Kelly, understandably, was emotionally distressed by the loss of her mother. Leonard took Kelly to a therapist, but the therapist blamed him.

for many of her problems. So he made her quit going. And I'm shocked, number one, that he would even take his daughter to a therapist. And number two, that he wouldn't have known that a lot of the stuff that he had done to Kelly over the years was going to come out. And he was going to be painted as the bag guy. Kelly eaves dropped on Leonard's conversations with Dorothy's family. He would say Dorothy called.

but he never told Kelly about any of these calls. Only Leonard seemed to be home when she called, despite the fact that Kim was home most of the day and had a phone in her room, so she knew whenever they received a call. And again, you know, these kids aren't dumb. No. I think they're seeing through some of their father's lives.

Leonard once kicked Craig out of the house when he heard Kim and Kelly discussing a plan to find Dorothy in Toledo. They went anyway, but didn't find her. Kelly eventually confronted her dad about the mysterious phone calls. Leonard told her, your mother just doesn't want to talk to you kids. She's very disappointed. She's very mad at you. Kelly believed him because Dorothy was angry at her.

In the weeks before she disappeared, she blamed herself for her mother's disappearance. But at the same time, she suspected foul play. Kelly told her friend, she knew that if Dorothy was alive, she would contact her. Yeah, because she's the mom. Up until two weeks before she disappeared, they had a good relationship. What really seemed, at least on the part of Kelly, it was really when Craig entered the picture that her relationship with her mom, you know, started to sour. I don't know that Kim's really ever did. Every now and then Kelly told her dad that she thought he was hiding something and knew where Dorothy was.

For the next three years, Gibbs, Leonard tried to divide his family. He bought expensive gifts for Kim and didn't buy anything for Kelly. She resented her sister and they barely talked. Kim was angry that Kelly constantly talked about their mother. Leonard also got into violent arguments with Kelly, but not Kim. So he is really playing favorites here. Yeah. In a very obvious way, he also censored his daughter's mail, which caused the girls to assume.

Dorothy's family wanted nothing to do with them. When the girls talked to relatives on the phone, Leonard sat nearby and monitored the conversations. He didn't allow them to call their family because he didn't want them discussing Dorothy without him present. Leonard promised to throw Kelly a high school graduation party in 1987, but he told her to cancel it because nobody would come. I mean, this man is a piece of work. He is.

And you want to talk about just creating a terrible environment and a terrible childhood for your children. He's pretty much a real bastard. Yeah. No, he really is. Dorothy's sister Carol Sutton suspected the real reason was we would have offered to cook and we would have been in that freezer. Good point.

Now, obviously, that's coming out later. In late 1986, Carol discovered that Leonard asked the Canton police to close their investigation because Dorothy contacted him. So Carol demanded they reopened the case. When questioned, Leonard told the police that Dorothy had affairs with Craig and her former boss at the pet store and they knew where she was. The police called the pet store owner who called Kelly and was furious that he was wrongfully implicated. And you could see how someone would be upset.

Sure. That could ruin his own relationship. Yeah. Maybe the guy's married. I don't know. But if the police come and talk to you and say, hey, we heard you were having an affair with this woman who has gone missing. and you didn't have the affair, you are going to be a little angry about whoever is saying that you did.

The canton police asked Leonard to take a polygraph in 1987. He passed. But can't detective Keith Lazare told the Detroit Free Press. I don't know if the question was asked, if he killed his wife. Then what in the hell are you doing the polygraph for? Yeah, why even waste the time? If you're not going to ask, the big, biggest question of all. You know, how someone could pass a polygraph test? If you don't ask them

any questions where they have to lie. Yeah, he's walking out going, well, that wasn't too bad. Is your name, Leonard Tibersky? Yes. Okay. That's it. All right. You passed. According to Kelly, Leonard was not asked if he killed his wife, only if he knew what happened to her. And I do think it's one of the reasons, just one of the reasons I'm not crazy about polygraphs. You know, depending on how you ask the question, could someone craft an answer that in their mind they're not lying about? Sure. Yeah. I'm good at that.

I passed your polygraph test. You did. And I asked some pretty tough questions. Kelly started having vivid nightmares in the fall of 1987. she dreamed that her father attacked her in the hallway of her home or that her mother was in a chair unable to move. She described this dream saying, I'd see her in a reclining chair and sitting all hunched up and she would never say anything to me. I would try to go to her, but something was holding me back. I couldn't move.

I couldn't get to her and she wouldn't talk to me. All I could tell was that she was really mad. At this point, Kelly was attending school at Michigan State University. She and Leonard argued whenever she was home. Leonard filed for divorce in the fall of 1988. Kim caught Leonard in his bedroom with a woman and was upset. Kelly defended his right to start a new life. But she was also unhappy.

Like Kelly, Kim was starting to become suspicious of their father. She wondered why they hadn't opened the basement freezer in three years. She once tried to pick the lock, but couldn't do it. First of all, why do you have a lock on your freezer? Yeah, why would you need that? I don't want you taking the good meat out unless I'm here. Kelly was home over Thanksgiving break. She and a friend were hanging out at the house.

The girls were hungry, but the kitchen freezer was empty. Kelly wanted to check the locked basement freezer. She noticed that the key was missing. She called Leonard, and he told her that Dorothy. he took it with her when she left. He explained that she was making dinner and had the key on her when she walked out. Kelly accepted this explanation for a while. Now, my first thought is, if you know that the freezer has not been opened in three years,

what is it that you think you're going to find in there that is not going to be freezer burned? Do you know what? Well, that's true. But I get it. If you're hungry, you're hungry. Kelly and Craig had been broken up for, you know, some time by this point. But he started calling her in December 1988. He reminded Kelly that it had been three years since Dorothy disappeared and said,

you know how your mom felt about me. She would have at least called me if she couldn't handle talking to you. And it's actually a pretty good point that he's making. You know, it seems to me these girls thought that their mom, mom was mad at them and that's why they hadn't contacted them. But, you know, then you here you have Craig who I think, you know,

had this intimate relationship with Dorothy from everything that we know. It seems to have happened. And he's saying, okay, even if she was mad at you, she really liked me. And I think she would have reached out to me. And it does make some sense.

Yeah, I mean, I think he filled in some voids in her life. On New Year's Eve, Kelly went to Craig's apartment for a party. Craig started talking about Dorothy and Kelly told the group about her strange dreams and her fixation with the freezer. Craig suggested she opened the freezer to satisfy her curiosity. He told her she could pry open the lid with something like a screwdriver. Don't you think you would have probably tried to pry it open by now?

I would have for sure. Yeah. on January 2nd, 1989, Kelly was in the basement doing her laundry when she once again became captivated by the freezer. Now, maybe Gibbs, there was a part of her, maybe both of the girls that deep down didn't really want to know what was in that freezer because they feared it was the worst. Yeah, that would be terrifying. And maybe that's why they were a little more.

hesitant than maybe we think most people would be. Leonard was out of the house running errand, so she decided to pry the lockoff. Kelly opened the freezer, took a peek, and saw her mother's body and lots of blood. She only looked for a moment, but she was certain about what she saw. She ran upstairs to Kim's room and yelled, oh my God, mom's in the freezer, mom's in the freezer. She was afraid because Leonard was coming home soon. Kim was in shock. She later recalled that it felt like she was watching what was happening from a distance. But she was able to refocus and told Kelly their dad might hurt them if they confronted him.

Oh, absolutely. I think he would have. Well, you would have to think that if he knew they discovered his secret, would it be a stretch to think he would be a stretch to think he would whatever he had to do to make sure that nobody told on him. Yeah. Even if that included hurting or killing his own children. He sure didn't seem to have a problem killing his wife. No, and leaving her in a freezer for three years.

And making his kids suffer, right? Because they had suffered greatly during that period of time. You know, they were having bad dreams, nightmares. at the very least they thought they were may were one or both of them thought that they were part of the reason why Dorothy left yeah the blame the girls tried to act normal when leonard came home he left a few minutes later to run another errand and that's when the girls made an escape plan craig was supposed to pick kelly up that day and take her back to campus kim stuff some of her clothes and Kelly's suitcase and would ask Craig in front of her dad to drop her off at a nearby

store. Kelly later recalled, it was so hard. I had to sit in the kitchen and talk to him and make like nothing happened. And my mom was downstairs. And that would be extremely tough. You cannot let on that you know that your mom's in that freezer. But you know, both of them had to be so shocked. that how do you pull that performance off, you just have no choice. Leonard told Kelly he would miss her. While she was at school, Kelly said she would miss him too. Both of the girls left the house with Craig and reported their father to the police. Leonard was quickly arrested and charged with open murder.

He gave a detailed statement to the police. Detective Richard Pomorski told the Detroit Free Press, he said sooner or later he was going to give me a call i would say it was later i was going to say yeah definitely going to be later three years is gone by and then once you're caught you're going to say you know what sooner or later i was going to call you no you were not you were going to try to get away with it just like everybody else does according to pomorski it appeared that he felt sorry for her He kept her in the basement for three and a half years. His reason was that he loved her.

He didn't want to part with her. And I did find it strange that, you know, for that three and a half years, I'm sure he had plenty of opportunity to dispose of the body. Yes. And, you know, why wouldn't you? I think it's a great question. Because you are leaving the most damning evidence possible in the basement inside that freezer. But do I believe that he loved her and didn't want to part with her? No, I don't.

Leonard's attorney was John McWilliams, but the Detroit Free Press reported that attorneys were lined up in the street in the hopes of meeting with Leonard and taking on the high-profile case. McWilliams said about his client, he's a very nice man and quite an articulate fellow, And let's face it, he's pretty damn scared too. And he's very uncomfortable to be there and inconsiderable anguish. Well, boo who. Yeah, for him. And I always find it fascinating what defense attorneys say to the press.

He's a very nice man. He's an articulate fellow. He's scared. What does any of that have to do with whether or not he killed his wife? Zero. You can be a nice guy. You can be very articulate. And you can still be a murderer.

Yeah. On January 4th, the Wayne County Medical Examiner announced that Dorothy died from blows to the head with a blunt object before she was put in the freezer. He couldn't determine what weapon was used. Dorothy's body had blood on it and was bent over to fit on top of frozen meat. Craig Albright was not identified for a few months, but on January 5th, he did an anonymous interview with the Detroit Free Press. He was asked about the reports that the murder was Leonard's reaction to learning about the affair.

He said, not to my knowledge. I don't know. It's a bunch of shit. Okay. All right. Craig told the free press, he was the one who urged Kelly to open the freezer after Leonard gave an evasive answer about why it could not be open. Because I do think in three, three and a half years, you're going to run out of excuses

of why this freezer cannot be opened. It's probably like you didn't run out of excuses after a year. Well, yeah, but after three, three and a half, what are you telling people? Craig said that during his relationship with Kelly, he got to know Dorothy fairly well. He thought Dorothy was nice, but she and Leonard did. didn't get along. He said the more she was out of the house, the better she felt. Of course, you got away from all that. Yeah. And Leonard especially. He also claimed that he and Kelly did more to find Dorothy than the Canton police. He said Kelly didn't tell the police about her suspicions

before she found her mom because she was afraid that Leonard would do something to her. I'm sure he would have. And I don't think that's an unfounded fear. I mean, you know, let's go back to what these kids experienced growing up. If you think that your dad killed your mom on top of all the stuff he did to you, physically, verbally, emotionally, how likely are you going to be to call the police and blame him for murder and think that there are going to be no repercussions on his part? I would think you'd be pretty scared about making that call. On February 10, 1989, the Cannes Police released Dorothy's autopsy report,

which indicated she was beaten more severely than described by Leonard. Leonard told the police he beat Dorothy's head on an upright metal beam in their basement. He claimed Dorothy was still a lot and calling him names when he pushed her and she fell into the freezer. The report stated that Dorothy was killed by at least 11 blunt 14. injuries to the head. Well, that's some rage there. Yeah. I mean, even if they were all done with the metal beam,

11 times, no matter what's used, that's brutal. Her left index finger was broken. There were bruises on her face, upper chest, shoulder and both forms. In his confession, Leonard only mentioned causing injuries to Dorothy's head. On February 16th, the judge ruled that Leonard was competent to stand trial after a state forensic psychiatrist found no indication of mental illness. Leonard's preliminary exam took place on March 2nd.

The judge ruled that Leonard would be tried for secondary murder because of a total lack of evidence of any premeditation. And I get that. I don't know that the state would have had any evidence whatsoever. And it sounds like they didn't, that he planned this murder in advance. You know, if you go with this theory that he was angry, maybe he found out about the affair, there was an incident. Okay, that's not premeditation. That's, you know, the heat of the moment. It's still murder. Sure, but it's just not first degree. Right.

Assistant medical examiner L.J. Dagavich testified that Dorothy could not have been standing after the blows to the head because she would have been unconscious. I was going to say 11 blows to the head. I think it would be hard for anybody still be standing. Yeah, when my wife tripped a few weeks ago, she had, she hit her head once on a China hutch and was out. Why did you just do air quotes when you said China hutch? No, I did the quotes when I said, she fell. Oh.

That's what you should have said. No, she did actually fall. She will on her own. She will testify to that. Kelly testified at the hearing that Craig was living in their home for two weeks before her mother disappeared. Her relationship with her mother became more complicated after he moved in and she didn't really understand why. At this point, Craig still denied having an affair with Dorothy. Leonard's trial started on June 19, 1989.

In opening statements, defense attorney Carol Stanier said, per the Detroit free press, Dorothy Tiberski said and did a lot of things that would make an ordinary person act rashly. Stanier argued that Leonard killed his wife in the heat of passion and in self-defense. She noted that Leonard was ashamed, adding, if you came to this trial expecting to see an evil man, a demon, I think you're going to be disappointed. Well, for one thing, I'm sure Leonard is not going to act like a demon. or an evil man while he's sitting at the defense table. Yeah, he's going to act like how he did when he would go to work and around other people,

not how he acted when he was in his own house around his daughters, around his daughters and wife. Well, I think he's smart enough to know that that would not, you know, go well for him. Dorothy's family criticized the defense because she was not there to defend herself. And we've been talking about that on a lot of episodes. You know, the way that a defense attorney sometimes attacks the victim, it really is kind of horrible. I understand the theory behind it. But again, if you're the victim's family, you're going to be upset about it. The prosecution argued that Leonard lied to everyone for three years.

And evidence from the autopsy did not match his statement. Dorothy's injuries showed an intent to kill or do great bodily harm. arm and Leonard covered up the crime. Craig Albright admitted that he had two sexual encounters with Dorothy, which according to him, she initiated. So, you know, he had kind of kept quiet on this for years. But, you know, once you get up on the stand and you're being asked about it, that's still true. It is. And he did. Craig testified that on the day of the murder, Dorothy walked around the house in her underwear and taunted him by saying, come on, chicken, not something I've ever experienced with any of my girlfriends when I was, you know, younger.

Yeah. Or in my girlfriend's moms, thankfully, because that would have been very, very awkward. I just have to put that out there. I'm glad you finished that out that way. Craig said he turned her down and left the house to go wash his car and maybe take a cold shower. Now, he didn't actually say that. I added that part. Leonard testified that he kept Dorothy's body in the freezer because I loved my wife too much to just dump the body. He also said, as quoted by the Detroit Free Press, I didn't mean any disrespect to my wife's body. I knew no more harm would

come to her where she was. Well, he's got a strange way of showing his love. Yeah. Go ahead. And, you already did all the harm to her, buddy. Yeah, I mean, you asked the question, right? Why wouldn't he have at some point during, you know, those three, three and a half years taking her body out, buried it, dumped it somewhere. Now, he's saying, I loved her too much to do that. Could that be possible? Yeah, technically it could be.

Could it be that he didn't want, you know, scavengers to get at her? I don't know. Anything from him, though, is a little tough to buy. Leonard testified that Dorothy was never the same. After her older sister died, they didn't communicate with each other and had more arguments. Dorothy said she was depressed and couldn't talk to him. I think she was depressed because she was with him. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, I think he's, you know, sugarcoating that. I'm sure she was very depressed after her sister died, but you're also leaving out this fairly long marriage where, you know, you controlled her. You isolated her from her family. He said he also noticed the change after Craig came to live with him in September 1985, but he didn't suspect she was having an affair with him. At trial, Leonard changed his account about what exactly happened during the fight.

At trial, he said, he came home from work on September. 28, 1985, and found Craig and Dorothy together. He told Craig to leave so that he could talk to Dorothy. I said that Craig is going to have to leave. She said, Craig's not going to leave. You are. Dorothy wanted him to leave and stay at her mother's house for a couple of weeks. She said she didn't love him anymore and she needed time to think. He asked if she was having an affair with Craig. She didn't respond. He followed her to the basement and and asked her again, she said, yes, I am. I love Craig. He's a man. You're not a man. You're a wimp, a punk, a bastard. You're leaving. Get out of here. Okay. So that's similar, right? We've already

talked about that. But Leonard continued his testimony by saying she picked up the freezer food containers. She started throwing them at me. She also threw the knife and fork. I ducked. that's pretty similar or maybe almost the same as what he said earlier. Then he added, she came at me with her hand. I grabbed her and tried to prevent her from scratching me. I pushed her away from me. Somehow she got the knife.

She lunged at me. She scratched my arm a bit with the knife. I was in shot because I guess I realized my wife is having sex with this kid. When she came at me with that knife, I never saw a look like that in her eyes. They were red. I was afraid. I grabbed the back of her head and started smashing it against the bean many, many times.

I wanted her to get away from me. I was completely out of control. I grabbed her and threw her with every bit of energy I had into the freezer. So is he trying to make it like self-defense? Yes, because I think that's part of his defense's argument. But, you know, what I want to talk about is this one. I was afraid. That's what he's saying.

I wanted to get her away from me. So to do that, I grabbed the back of her head and slammed it against the metal beam many, many times. I mean, you couldn't just push her away. You couldn't leave the house. It just seems to me like there were so many options that he could. could have chosen, but what he chose to do was grab the back of her head. And to me, when you picture that, that's not, you know, you trying to get someone away from you.

You're in control when you have somebody by the back of the head. Yeah. By the hair. Yeah. Yeah. Now, he did say he was out of control. But, you know, like you said earlier, is there a mixture of truth in here? And I'm sure there is.

But is he trying to paint a story in a way that makes him look up a little bit better? And I would say, yeah, I think most defendants do. Dorothy wasn't breathing or moving. When he returned to the basement, he testified, I closed the lid on the freezer. I just couldn't stand to look at her. I felt so terrible and ashamed that I had done that. Do you believe that? Yeah, I don't know.

I mean, I do think it's possible that people can feel terrible and ashamed after committing a murder. It's possible. But I also think it could be possible that he's trying to soften himself in a way. He said he didn't report Dorothy's death because he was afraid his daughters would be taken from him and he would lose his family and his job. Well, yeah, you're going to lose all that. He testified that it never occurred to him that his daughters would open the freezer. He also admitted to entertaining friends in the basement while his wife's body was in the freezer.

Earlier, a police lieutenant testified that Dorothy could not have fallen into the freezer because of her position and the way blood was smeared on the inside of the freezer. And I thought that was a real stretch. You know, I pushed her and she just happened to land in this freezer. Yeah, like she tumbled in position and all he had to do was close. a lid. Yeah. That was a bit of a stretch for me. The assistant medical examiner testified that any one of the 11 blows could have killed Dorothy and the first would have knocked her unconscious. It was not likely that she could have spoken after the beating started. So there again, you know,

if you're saying, I just wanted to get her away from me. Well, one blow most likely would have done it. Yeah. Why 11? Now, he's saying he's out of control. I think you could make the argument. It's because he wanted to kill her. Absolutely. The Detroit Free Press reported that Leonard became testy when the prosecutor suggested that he knew about the affair before September 28, 1985. The prosecution pointed out that Leonard changed three parts of his story from his police statement. He initially said he killed Dorothy in a fit of rage. after she confessed to the affair, but he said at trial that it was self-defense because she attacked him with a staked knife. He said he initially said she fell into the freezer, but at trial, he said he threw her there.

He initially said his wife yelled at him as she lay in the freezer, but at trial, he said he heard her shouting in my mind. She was calling me name. So again, as we see in a lot of cases, is this a scenario where, as time goes by and you're working with your defense group, do you start to learn about inconsistencies between the evidence that the state is going to present and things that you've

already said? And so your narrative has to be changed in some way. I think they decided to help them craft a better story. Yeah, most likely. And I don't think it's all that unusual. Leonard said it was not true, that he was angry with Dorothy because he suspected the affair. He called it a shocking and horrible experience. Yeah, I'm sure it was. He said, I was experiencing or feeling a lot of emotions at that time. At first, I was in shock that she said that. I was feeling a lot of emotions. Anger was probably one of them. The prosecutor asked if he felt rage. And he said, no. And for me, that's a tough one. You know, smashing your wife's head into a metal beam 11 times screams to me rage.

Absolutely it does. In closing arguments, the defense told the jury that Dorothy emasculated, taunted, and humiliated Leonard. Her massive injuries proved Leonard was out of control. A man, a teacher doesn't just come and kill his wife. Look at the wounds. That's what rage looks like. So the defense is even calling it.

Rage. But they're doing so, I think, to emphasize that he was so out of control. I feel like Dorothy finally got some confidence back in her life, maybe from the wrong source being Craig. Yeah, maybe. That finally she was willing to stand up. And I don't think Leonard liked someone standing up to him in his own house. No, I think with everything we said about Leonard, he was not a guy who liked anyone to stand up to

especially in his house, right? Irritable, obsessed with cleanliness, order. Well, with all of that comes control. And anytime somebody is standing up to you, well, you're starting to lose some of your control. Yeah. And those type of individuals normally don't like that. The prosecutor argued that Leonard wasn't telling the full truth

and the motive may never be known. On June 26, 1989, the jury, found Leonard guilty of second-degree murder. One juror told the Detroit free press, the guy was a liar. He changed his statement three times as we were watching him. Jurs also thought the concealment of the body added to the appearance of guilt. The girl's aunt, Carol Sutton, said Kelly felt torn between her mother and her father before the sentencing hearing. Kim wrote a letter to the judge, asking him not to send her father to jail. She wrote that, she was estranged from Dorothy's family who applauded for the conviction and her father was all she had left.

And I get that he probably was all she had left. But he also took your mom away from you. So I don't know. That's a tough one. Carol Sutton told the Detroit Free Press that Kim was the one who abandoned them after they opened their home to her. Kelly believed her father should serve prison time for the murder saying it was wrong. Even if my mother was the cause of it, he should have controlled himself. And to me, it's very interesting that the sisters have somewhat different viewpoints on what

should happen to their dad. And we're really surprised how Kim feels. Yeah, you would think she would be more in line with Kelly, but she wasn't. On July 12th, 1989, Leonard Tiberski was sentenced to 20 to 40 years in prison. The judge noted that numerous people, including Leonard's parents, neighbors, friends, and coworkers wrote letters asking for a lenient sentence. But again, Gibbs, did they know the real Leonard Tibersky? Or did they just know what, you know, he had shown them at work or standing in the yard across the fence?

The judge told Leonard is quoted by the free press. you will be back into the community and reunited with your family at some point in time. But unfortunately for the silent victim, she will have no opportunity to see her daughters grow older. And that's a sad thought. It really is. Yeah. Shame. Leonard said, I just want to say I'm sorry for taking the life of my wife and taking the mother of my children away from them.

I'm a shame. On November 3rd, 1992, the Michigan Court of Appeals, granted Leonard a new trial because the judge failed to properly examine prospective jurors. On July 9th, 1994, the Michigan Supreme Court upheld the reversal of the conviction and the order for a new trial. On September 7th of that year, Leonard pleaded guilty to second-degree murder. He agreed to a plea deal after a new judge offered him a shorter sentence. So on November 18th, Leonard was sentenced to 9 to 20. years in prison. Not a bad deal for him. No, it's really not. If you think about it, it's basically

cut in half of what it was. And he had already served five years. So the plea deal made it possible for him to get out in as little as three years from that point in time. And he did get out. Just couldn't find any articles about his actual parole date or, you know, what he did after that. My thought is he probably tried to lay as low as possible. Stay out of the spotlight. Leonard Tibersky died on November 6, 2014, at the age of 71 in Manesson, Pennsylvania. His obituary stated that he retired from the Detroit public school system and was survived by his daughters, Kelly Horn and Kim Tibersky.

And one thing I want to point out, Gibbs, is what a big difference it makes between second degree murder and first degree. It really is. You're talking about a much shorter prison sentence for second degree murder. Yeah. Now, I don't know that he got out after nine years, but the longest he could have done was 20, assuming he didn't kill somebody else in prison or, I guess, do something else. He did get out at some point.

I just couldn't figure out when it was. I mean, he's got to be really happy with his attorney's appeal process, right? I mean, it saved him half of the time in prison. Yeah, well, he would have died in prison. right we know he died in in 2014 so i think with his original sentence he most likely would have died in prison but as we wrapped this one up it was a pretty high profile case that shocked people around the country you know leonard fabricated elaborate lives to try to explain his wife's disappearance and he and his daughters lived above his wife's body for three plus years he didn't account

for the fact that his daughter was observant suspicious of him and determined to find out what happened to her mother. I think a lot of people would be curious of a freezer that you can't get into for three and a half years. Yes. I know I would be, unless I knew it was filled with my wife's leftovers. And then I would just leave it alone. Yeah, me too. Sorry. But that raises the question. I've always noticed this door over here. The one with the lock on it? The three locks on it. Yeah. Pay no mind. Okay. But I just think, you know, what this guy did was horrible. You know, yeah, he claims self-defense. I just find a lot of that hard to believe. You know, when you smash someone's head on a metal beam 11 times, that doesn't scream self-defense to me.

It seems like you're in control at that point of the situation. If you're able to grab somebody by the back of the head and smash the head into a metal pole or metal. beam, you're in control. You're not in fear of your life anymore. And after one hit, two hits, there's no fighting back. No. So I get it. There's no premeditation, but it seems like a very heinous murder to me. So, you know, when you look at a sentence of possibly as low as nine years, that's a tough one. It really is. But that's it for our episode on Leonard Tiberski. We got some voicemails. You You want to check those out? Let's hear them. Hey, y'all. My name's Kayla.

I'm from Georgia. I listen to y'all's podcast all the time, and y'all are so funny, and I love listening to y'all. I got interesting y'all's podcast. I've never, y'all are the first podcast I've ever listened to, and it was the Chris Watts. I was looking it up to hear more about it. And after that, I've been hooked, and y'all's input on all the different crimes and topics. y'all are really great to listen to i've listened for hours and hours and hours um i recently went on a road trip and was just listening the entire time for like six hours straight but y'all are great

and keep it up uh and i just i love listening to y'all and yeah just want to give a little compliment okay bye six hours of mike and gibby yeah well we appreciate the compliment very much in the voicemail and i love the accent. The whole time gives, I'm thinking, we should be using y'all way more often. I like y'all. And hear me out. It can be used so many different ways. It encompasses a lot of different words. You can take a lot of words out of your vocabulary, really. You really could, y'all. Just by saying, y'all. It's right. It works. Y'all want to go to Walmart? You don't have to say, do you, do you, do you? It's just y'all. Y'all. Everybody's included. Yeah. We're using it more starting now. Yeah, I just don't think it plays well in Ohio. I don't know. I'll give it a try. Okay. You test it out. I will. And then let me know the feedback. How it goes.

Hi, Mike. Hi, Gippie. This is Brandy Johnson from Wisconsin. I have just followed your guys' podcast and I am loving it. I listen to it Monday through Friday at work. It is awesome. I understand now why my parents were so overprotection. of me growing up. They were raised back when a lot of the stuff was going on in the 60s and the 70s and through the 2000s. So thank you again for the awesome podcast and have a great day. All right. Thank you so much for the voicemail. I went to high school with a girl named Brandy Johnson.

Really? Yeah. Not the same person. It's pretty interesting. Not really. No. I'm sure you've known a Brandy Johnson at some point in your life. No, I have not.

Really? No. Hmm. Nope. I know a lot of people, y'all. Yeah. See, I don't think, you're going to have to work on how you use it. Yeah.

You just can't throw it in everywhere. Randomly just toss it out there. Well, maybe you can. I don't know. It didn't come out as well as it did when she said. But, you know, I think sometimes we get lulled into a little bit of a false security. Now, I don't think we should be walking around scared all of our. lives, but, you know, keeping your head on swivels, not the worst thing in the world.

By the way, I didn't know a brandy. She was a fine. I love that song. We had mailbag. Mike Walston sent in some Harley chips. And he also sent a nice letter that said, we inspired him to start his own podcast. Awesome. So that is really, really cool.

Thanks, Mike. All right, buddy. That is it for another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike and givey, stay safe. Keep your own time ticking.