True Crime All The Time - Leonarda Cianciulli

Episode Date: September 16, 2019

Leonarda Cianciulli was born in Italy into a tumultuous situation. Her mother was raped and was forced to marry her rapist after finding out she was pregnant with Leonarda. She resented Leonarda because of the situation that brought her into this world. But, as an adult, Leonarda dreamed of having a large family to give the love to that she was never shown as a child. Many of her children died young as a fortune-teller had predicted. So Leonarda began sacrificing other women as a means to help keep her children alive.Join MIke and Gibby as they discuss Leonarda Cianciulli, the soap maker of Corregio. She was a first-class con artist who lured women in with a web of fantastic lies. Leonarda learned what these women wanted and she told them that she could give it all to them. But, instead of getting what they most wanted in the world, they were murdered, boiled in Leonarda's kettle and turned into soap, candles, and cakes.You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise and donation informationSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

and welcome to episode 148 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson. And with me as always is my partner in True Crime, Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you? I'm good, man. How about you? I'm doing great. Yeah. I am excited to record some episodes. That's always good, man. We just got done recording a little Patreon video mini episode. Many episode. Yep. Yeah. It actually came out on Friday the 13th. Yeah. Which is different. We normally put our normal weekly Patreon things out on Saturday. But this was actually an episode where it was just smaller. There wasn't as much information out about it.

Hence the mini episode. Hence the word many. But it was interesting. It was about a guy named Ronald O'Brien that poisoned one of his children on Halloween to collect some insurance money. Sad. I can never understand doing harm to your own kid. No. It's just a thought that you can't process, right?

Doesn't make any sense. All right, Gibbs, we have some new Patreon supporters. So let's give some shoutouts. We had Jody. Hey, Jody. Jeff Reddy. What's up, Jeff? Greg.

Hey, Greg. Veronica Sonor. Senor. Brandy Cox. What's going on, Brandi? Caitlin Roberts. Hey, Caitlin. Alan.

What's up, Alan? Deborah Presnall. The Presonar. Selina Hernandez. Thanks, Selena. Adriana Goodson. Hey, Adriana. Christy Lucas

Thanks Christy Amelia Like flying across the country Amelia? Like Amelia Earhart Is that who you're thinking I'm thinking Shane Gibson

Your brother Yeah what's up bro Ruth Batten jumped out To our highest level Hey thanks Ruth As did Ben Thornton And the Thornton is kicking it We had Katie Hartsell

Hey thanks Katie Sam Lipson What's going on Sam Lori Karris jumped out To our highest level Wow thanks Lori John Sanderson What's up John

Elaine Thanks, Elaine. Erica Frazier. Ooh, Erica. Like, boxer Frazier. But you said, ooh, Erica. Yeah, yeah. It was a little delay there.

Yeah, it was. Trisha Duffy. Hey, Trisha. Leandra Ventura. Ah, Ventura. Terry Timlet. Hey, thanks, Terry. And Pickles McGravy.

Hey, you don't be pickling McRavies. We go back into the Vault Gibbs. All right. This week, we selected Elizabeth Roberts. Hey, Elizabeth. So a big shout out to Elizabeth. she's been with us a long time. We appreciate all the new Patreon support

and all the people that continue to support us month after month. Elizabeth gets a lot of big shoutouts from that one show. Are you talking about Fred Sanford? Sanford inside? Yeah. Give a lot of big shoutouts.

I'm coming to join you, Elizabeth. Yeah. You're doing pretty well so far in this episode. You don't know exactly what you're talking about, but you know enough that you're right and it's helping me to fill in the blanks. Get you in the. his own. Yeah. You just got to get me in the right

ballpark and I can usually figure out what you're trying to say. Yeah, I can drive it home or you can drive it home. Yeah. We also had some PayPal donations gives. We had Marion Khan. Hey, Marion. Dorothy Ballerini. Ooh, Balarini. Mark Spencer. What's up, Mark? Patricia Lopez. Thanks, Patricia. And Virginia Hanson. Hey, Virginia. So a big thanks to all those folks. Yeah, I love it. So right now, we have an episode out brand new on True Crime All time unsolved. Yeah. We got the Durham family down in North Carolina.

We're going to talk about what happened to them, what happened up to that spot, and then what happened after that. So three of them end up dead and not in a very pleasant way. Let's chase some rabbit holes. Let's do it. So check that out. Don't forget about the reviews are in, our brand new podcast. We'll have a new episode out this Tuesday.

All right, buddy, are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime All Time? I'm ready. Let's give a big shout out for research and writing help with this episode to our good friend Lana Hyatt. We're headed to one of your favorite countries in the world. Oh, yeah. Italy. Love it. Spaghetti.

All good. Bolognaise. Bolognaise is my favorites. And as always, a chance to practice your chef boyardie. like accents. It's better than that. It's exactly like that. I mean, what's not to lie?

The reason we're headed to Italy is to talk about Leonardo chinchuli. Chinchuli. And the last name is somewhat hard to say. I will probably be going with Leonardo quite a bit. Because that's easy to. It is much easier to say. She was also known as the soap maker of Correjo. Okay.

Now, as far as murder. her nicknames go, that one doesn't seem too bad. Sounds pretty clean. Yeah. I got that, Joe. I got that. It's not until you find out how she got the nickname that it really sinks in. Yeah.

Let's put it this way. If you're using homemade soap that you got from friends, that you got from family, or you're buying it from a store, you may think twice about using it after this episode. There goes my Christmas gifts to you and your family. That is 100% true. Yeah. This is a woman who murdered and boiled some of her friends to get their money and then essentially turn them into soap and other items.

Mm, creative. Creative, heinous, horrible. Yeah. All wrapped up into one. Let's start out talking about superstitions. Gibbs, there's a million of them, right? Think back to childhood. Step on a crack, break your mama's back.

Oh, man. Opening an umbrella inside. Yep. Seven years bad luck for breaking a mirror. Yeah. You got all that stuff about black cats, walking under ladders. There's a lot of them. Stephen Wonder song.

Superstitious. Are you saying the song is superstitious? I can't listen to it, man. It's not good. Bad things are going to happen. I got to turn the station when it happens. But what if you really truly believed in some of these things? Oh.

And like a lot of them. As an adult? As an adult. Wow. It would dramatically affect how you live your life, right? Big time. That's the kind of stuff that Leonardo believed in. It really went to her conscious mind.

I would say it. It did. So let's talk about her background a little bit. it, Leonardo was born in 1893. Okay. So we're going back of ways. Yeah. Murders take place like in the late 30s, early 40s.

Okay. She was born in the Italian town of Montella. Oh, Montella. Uh-huh. But Leonardo was a child of rape. Mm-hmm. So her mother was raped. Yeah.

Had Leonardo, but was forced to marry her rapist. Really? When she found out that she was pregnant. And think about what a horrible feeling that would be to know that number one, your rapist is out walking the street. Sure. Nothing happened to this person. Right.

And then on top of that, even worse, you're forced to marry that person and live with them day in and day out. I just find that so disturbing. Yeah. It's literally a marriage made in hell. Yeah. I mean, that's stuff that you would read about.

maybe in some third war. Italy, 1890s, just seems, seems wrong. No, it does. It seems wrong in any era, in any century. Yeah. So there's no doubt. Leonardo did not grow up in a loving home with loving parents. First of all, her father was a rapist.

That's first and foremost. Sure. And then her mother looked at her as, a burden. Well, yeah, because she didn't want her. Yeah. For one, she reminded her of the rape that she endured for a child that, like you said, she never really wanted. Right. And then on top of that, Leonardo had epilepsy as a child. She also suffered from, you know, several other illnesses. So all of this went into her mother seeing her as a child. She also suffered from, you know, several other illnesses. So all of this went into her mother seeing her as really nothing but a burden.

Yeah, just a compounded problem. She was raised in poverty-stricken parts of Italy. Her father died when she was pretty young. Which probably wasn't hateful for her mom. I would say not. But I don't know what her relationship was with her dad. I didn't see a lot of information about it. Right.

You know, whether she grew up, knowing the full circumstances around her birth, having a full understanding of who her dad really was. I don't know. Yeah. But he did die when she was pretty young. Her mother remarried and had more children. The thing is, she liked these children. Because she chose them.

She chose to be. I think that's part of it. Yeah. She definitely preferred them to Leonardo. Yeah. And that's got to be really tough. Yeah. It's kind of sad, man.

for any kid. Yeah. To see your mom act differently towards these other kids, you know, you're like, wait, mom, she never hugged me. Yeah. Or she never did that. She's Florence Henderson to these kids. Yeah.

She treated me like crap. Yeah. Kind of felt like probably like Cinderella did at one point, you know. But yeah, I think what it did was it made Leonardo feel as if nobody wanted her. Yeah. And she did try to take her own life, multiple times at a fairly young age. Sure.

First time she tried to hang herself, but somebody caught her and saved her. Yeah. The second time she tried to hang herself again, the rope broke. It got so bad that at one point she swallowed shards of glass. Wow. Thinking that, you know, this would cut her insides. Right. She would bleed to death.

But she lived. So that really had to add to her depression, you know, all these attempts not going the way that at that time she hoped. Well, I mean, yeah, it's sad to say. But she was not happy. No. Obviously with her life, she tried to end it several times. They all failed.

Now, one thing that we're going to talk about quite a bit as it relates to Leonardo is gypsies, fortune tellers. This is something that, you know, throughout her life, she visited fortune tellers quite a bit. Yeah. And during one particular visit, a woman told her that she would marry and have many children. And this is something that she did actually want. She wanted to have a big family. She wanted to get married. That sounds great, right? To hear that from a fortune teller basically backing up everything that you're you're wanting. The problem is the fortune teller also said that all of your children will die young. So you're going to have a lot of them.

But they're all going to die. Yeah. First part good. Second part horrible. Oh. There's a reason Gibbs that they don't put those kind of fortunes in your Chinese Fortune cookie. And your fortune cookie at a Chinese restaurant.

Nobody wants to finish their Muguay pan and then open up their fortune cookie and have it read, you're going to die. Or your children are going to die. You know, they keep them fairly generic and halfway up beat. Right. For a reason. Let's not go back to that place because they are telling me a lot of bad things are going to happen.

So I mentioned that her mother didn't really like her. But at one point, she did something that kind of seemed out of place, seemed almost kind. She found a wealthy man for Leonardo to marry. Oh. She was trying to either help Leonardo out or help herself out. It probably helped herself out, I would think, with some formal arrangement. And I think in the early 1900s, this probably was not. that uncommon. My assumption is there were families that looked at having a daughter as a pretty good

thing, right? Because it was a way that they could change their station in life. So if you had a daughter, there was a possibility that she could marry someone of some status. Yeah. In the community, thereby elevating the status of the entire family. Take it to a whole other level, potentially. Just look at Titanic, right? Rose was set to marry that rich guy. Yeah. Her mom really wanted her to marry that rich guy.

You know why? Because they didn't have the money that they portrayed that they did. Rose, we're barely, barely got enough to get by. If you don't marry him, we're not going to make it. Are you quoting Titanic? Well, like, not a really good quote, though. Well, but. It's pretty good for you.

I'm just saying. But if you break out the notebook next, I'm going to start to get worried. It's always, it was always you. It was always you, whatever your name is. So it sounds like a pretty good plan. But Leonardo doesn't go through with it. Instead, she marries a man named Rafael Ponsardi. Raphael Ponsardi.

Rafael was a post office clerk, considerably older than she was. He was not a wealthy man by any means. he earned a meager living at the post office at best. Her mom was livid. She's thinking, I had this thing set up for you. You would have been taken care of. It would have helped me too.

You blew it. So rather than congratulate her daughter on finding a man that actually loved her because there was no guarantee this other wealthy guy would have actually even loved her. Right. She didn't do that. What she did was. she cursed them both. I curse you. I spit on you. Yeah. I don't know how they did their, their curses back then. I'm forcing you to walk underneath a ladder right now.

So Leonardo and Raphael left town in 1921. They moved to Loria, which was his hometown. Not long after Leonardo's mother died. And even after her death, she stated that her mother would visit her and her dreams, essentially haunting them. Wow. So I mentioned that Leonardo wanted a large family. She wanted a lot of children. She wanted to smother them with love. Gibbs, she got pregnant 17 times. You said 17. 17 times. Wow. The problem is her children kept dying. Just as the fortune teller said. Yeah, one after another. So eight of the children died very early on. I don't think that long after childbirth, which,

Rand, in the early part of the 1900s, was probably not that uncommon. Oh, probably happened a lot. The survival rate was not like it is today. Right. And some of the other pregnancies ended in either miscarriages or stillbirths.

Sure. Ultimately, only four of her children would survive. Okay. And this is, you know, throughout her life. Again, I said, this is a different time in medicine, right?

Medicine back then was not what it was today. But it would still be heartbreaking. Oh. To lose one child, heartbreaking. To lose, what, 13? Yeah. It would crush you. It's a lot, man.

So I said ultimately she would have four children that lived. Right. But that wasn't a big family to her. I think to you and I, that's a pretty. pretty good-sized family. Oh, today, for sure. She wanted a big brood. Yeah.

A large family. 10, 12. I don't know the exact number. The problem is they kept dying. Yeah. So she did what she thought she needed to do. She went to someone that practiced some type of magic or claimed to. Fertile fertility magic.

I don't know if they had the term fertility magic. Yeah. back then. Baby magic. I don't know what it was. Yeah. I think she was more centered around finding somebody that could lift the curse that her mother had put on her. Yeah. Because don't forget, I said it up front. She believed deep down in a lot of these different things. Sure. Whether it be superstitions or curses or, you know, magic. She believed in a lot of it. So she's trying to get her mojo cleaned. Yeah. I don't know. know how you clean your mojo. Do you take it to the car wash? Is there an extra fee? Do you get the wash and wax? Do you spring for the undercarriage? Option. I just use a little windex and a squeegee, but you know. I've never heard anybody say get their mojo clean. I've heard get your mojo back. Yeah. But sometimes you've got to clean it too. Sometimes I guess you have to keep it clean. On one occasion, she went to a palm reader. And this person studied.

her right and left palm, but it wasn't a good reading like you would expect. You know, she was told that she would end up in prison. One of her hands showed that, one of her palms showed that she was going to end up in a criminal insane asylum. Wow. So she is getting nothing but very, very bad news. For somebody like her from her earlier years, anything she hears, sounds like she internalizes. Well, this is a woman. that essentially her entire life lived with a bunch of disappointment. Yeah. She lived with shame caused by her mother and the things that her mother said about her.

Now she's being told that you know what? Your future is not going to be any better. Yeah. Your past was crap. Your future is going to be maybe even worse. That's not even the worst thing she heard. She was told that all of. her children would die before she would.

Okay. Wow. She would live to see all of her children die. Yeah. Not good, man. No, it's not good. It can't be good to, when you believe in a lot of this stuff. Yeah.

To be walking around with this knowledge because you're going to think, hey, this is going to come true. I believe in this. I also read that she was told not to eat the canoli. Do not eat the, or take the canoles. Take it. Take the canoes. So here's where you have to ask the question. Is the fortune teller, palm reader correct in their premonitions?

Or does what the person here become a self-fulfilling prophecy? I think you can build it up in your head and internalize it so much that you can kind of make things happen. You know, I mean, it's good or bad, right? I mean, right? You can take something and get it in your head and believe in it and build on it and make something great happen or really bad. Well, in 1927, she was convicted of fraud and sentenced to prison. There you go. So that one came true.

Palm Reader, one, nothing. One, nothing. When she had out, she and her husband, she still married to this Raphael guy. They moved to Macedonia. But it was like everywhere this woman went, there was some unfortunate event following her. Lemony Snicket's. In 1930. Yeah.

This home that she had built with her husband in Macedonia was destroyed by an earthquake. Wow. That's tough. Some bad mojo, man. So they end up moving to Kredgeo. Okay. Northern Italy. Yeah.

She set up a shop that sold herbal remedies, cakes, homemade soaps, perfumes, all kinds of stuff. It reminds me very much, Gibbs, of the type of store that you keep telling me that you want to set up. It really is. It's so familiar. Pooperie, handmade soaps. Poopery. Poopery. You've talked about a ghost-like pottery wheel where you're going to make your own

pottery. It's going to be exciting. You want Patrick Swayze standing behind you. That part, I thought was a little strange, but. I thought it was really strange that you broke the man code and brought that up out for everybody to hear. I thought we said we weren't going to talk about that. You said that we weren't going to talk about that. I didn't agree. I didn't agree. So she set up this shop. She also started writing poetry and studying the occult. She's got a lot of stuff going on. Yeah, she's busy. The. The. studying of the occult was said to have been a preventive measure to fight the curse. Oh, okay.

She's still got this curse on her from her mother. She's trying to figure out a way to battle it. Like, how many chickens do I got to boil to get rid of the curse? I got you. And then she starts getting into a little bit of fortune telling herself. Really? Right. She's got this shop.

There's a lot of people coming in and out. it allowed her to give advice to people that came in. I think it kind of morphed into a quasi fortune telling thing. Right. And Leonardo learned very early on that by telling people what she believed they wanted to hear, she would make more money. Sounds like a good business plan. Yeah.

You start telling people they're going to die next week. They're not coming back. Right. They're spending all their money. You tell them good things are going to happen. They walk away feeling good. They come back to see you again. Yeah, make me feel good again.

Tell me, whatever. It's a sound business plan. So people began to trust her. She was known in the area to be a very kind person. People liked her. Good. But by February 1931, she had become pregnant again and lost another child. Wow.

Now, this is not in addition to the time. total that I mentioned up front. That was the total. I got you. So I'm kind of talking about them in chronological order now. But I think this is the point where she started to reach her breaking point. Yeah. Because it sounds like everything else was starting to turn good in her life. It was. And then boom, here she's hoping maybe the curse has been broken. And now she loses another child. another child. Then she goes to see another fortune teller who told her that if she gave her soul to the devil, her next child would live. And she'd be a really good violinist. The child? She would. Leonardo. Yeah, because like Charlie Dan. You're talking about Charlie Dan? Yeah. Now, if you said fiddle player,

I would have got it. That's it. But when you say violinist, I think classical. Yeah. You know. Well, it's a violence. It's a fancy. It is. But we, you know. Yeah.

We call it a fiddle. Yeah. You do. Down in these parts. Yeah. Get my boots out. But this had to be really good, right? For her.

Yeah. This is a way that I can keep a child alive. In 1934, she had her fourth child that survived. Yeah. I mentioned that she had four. This was number four. So she's a little closer to having that bigger. family. Not there yet, but not there yet. But her shop's doing well. Yeah. Now, what we haven't talked about

is really her relationship with her husband. I think it was pretty good at first. As time went on, he started drinking. She was a woman that now with this successful shop, she wasn't going to put up with it. And they divorced. What's strange about it is there's really no information about this guy. It's almost like he vanished off the face of the earth. I have no idea what happened to him. Okay. Now, maybe it was just that he lived out his life. He never did anything noteworthy to make the papers or anything like that.

Or he disappeared off the face of the earth, one or the other. Yeah. Maybe. Maybe she took care of him somehow. Maybe. Her oldest son, Giuseppe. Ah, Giuseppe. And is there a better Italian name than Giuseppe?

Giuseppe. That's awesome. Love that name. Giuseppe. Felt compelled to join the army during World War II, right? This is fascist Italy. This is Mussolini. Yeah.

Her oldest son joined the army. But it was said Gibbs that her son Giuseppe didn't know anything about the propheies that Leonardo believed in, right? About all of her children dying. It's probably not a thing that a mother is going to sit down and tell, as a bedtime story. Highly doubtful. But she has to be freaking out.

He is getting ready to go fight in World War II. Yeah. People were dying left and right. I mean, any mother would have been worried, but she's got to be out of her mind with the things that she believes or could come true. Sure. I'm sure. She realizes the odds and how they're not in her favor.

May the odds be ever in your favor? exactly so this is when she made the decision she was going to protect her kids at all costs and to do this she was going to have to make sacrifices she was going to have to make an offering it's a very common thing right one life pays for another and i mentioned this shop i mentioned how everybody liked her in the community she would use that and her role as a quasi fortune teller to find her victim So in the fall of 1939, her first victim was a woman named Faustina Setti. She was a 73-year-old, Spenser, who had said had spent essentially her whole life trying to find a husband.

It's a long time. She's 73 years old. She has not found Mr. Wright. Maybe her standards were just a little high. So it was said that she saved up 30,000 lira. Okay. You want to take a guess on how much that equates to in American dollars? Uh, 19,000 dollars.

$17.62. Wow. So they get some, uh, now back then. Yeah. That was a lot more money than is today. Yeah. Right. $17 was,

was quite a bit of money. It really hurts, man. But when you get into like lira and yen and some of those, I don't know why they picked. such big numbers to get to what is really not that much money. Yeah, I remember when someone gave me a bunch of pesos, I was like, yeah. Turns out to be like 37 cents. Yeah, I was like, can't even buy a taco.

What am I going to do with this suitcase full of that? It's only 30 some cents. So Faustina took this money that she had saved up, gave it all, every bit of it to Leonardo to help her find her a man, right? Leonardo must have told her, I can find you. man. And she's going to use her knowledge of the occult, all these things. You know, this is what she's telling this lady. You know, I know all this stuff. I can make it work. Whatever you want to call it, black magic. Boom. I'll get you a man. I'll hook you up. I'll hook you up.

Go do some next flicks and chill soon. So she told Faustina about a wealthy friend in what today is Croatia that she said wanted to marry a woman and spend the twilight years of his life with. Sounds exactly what this woman was looking for. Yeah. You know, he's in his twilight years. She's in her twilight years. Let's spend those years together on a rocking chairs. And twilight together.

And watch Twilight. And there you go. One, two, three, and however many they made. I don't know. Because I haven't seen any of them. You watched them all. But here's the catch. Leonardo had demands of Faustina and they were very detailed.

And Faustina could not deviate from any of it. If she did, the whole thing would collapse and she would die alone. That's a lot of pressure. This woman's already 73 years old. Yeah. 73 years old in 1939, which is amazing. That's a, I think that's way. past the probably average lifespan in 1939.

Probably double, I would think. Way past it. Yeah. The key is, right? And this is what con people do. They figure out what you want and they figure out how to play on your desires. Sure. And they reel you in.

This is exactly what she did. Leonardo even wrote a letter that was supposed to be from this friend of hers and gave it to Faustina. And I'm sure it was filled with all kinds of. a lovey-dovey stuff. I want to get married. So now she has her, right? So the next part of the plan is to have Faustina sell her house. So everything she own, dye her gray hair blonde and get ready to go meet this man. Okay. Time to doll up. She's got to be excited. I'm about ready to meet the person that I'm going to spend the rest of my life with. Leonardo also instructed Faustina to write notes to all of

her close relatives, all of her friends. But she said, don't mail them. Don't send them. keep them with you so that you can mail them out once you get to where this man lived. Okay. So if she did this and she paid the money to Leonardo, Faustina would meet the man of her dreams. So she did this, right? She wrote letters to anyone she could think of. She's not messing around. She is following every instruction to the letter. As she's getting set to leave on this journey, right, to meet this man, Leonardo offered her a glass of wine. We've got to celebrate.

Absolutely. We are in Italy, after all. Let's drink a little wine. Let's celebrate. A little vino. You're 73 years old, but you're about ready to enter the next chapter of your life. With your blonde hair. With your blonde hair.

Now, you don't have any money, but you want to be able to. You won't need it, right? This guy's going to take care of you. Yeah, you gotcha. So Faustina drinks the wine, but it's drugged. And at some point, she figures out it's drugged. And Leonardo's just sitting there waiting, right, for these drugs to take effect. And when they do, she takes a hatchet and slams it into this 73-year-old woman multiple times killing her. And the whole time, she's thinking about Giuseppe. Right. I have to save. Right. Giuseppe. I'm doing this for Giuseppe. Doing it for him. Now that this woman is dead, he'll be safe.

Now the second thing I think that went through her mind is, you know what? This woman's dead. She doesn't need anything. I'm going to take everything she has. Right. But there's a lot of blood, Gibbs. I think, you know, anytime you strike someone with a hatchet multiple times, there's going to be a lot of blood.

Yeah. And a bunch of spatter. Spatter as well. I don't know if they worried as much about spatter back then. Forensically, right? They weren't worried about it forensically. You got to clean it up. Yeah.

So she moved the body to a large closet. She undressed the body and she took a cleaver and a boning knife as well as a thin saw. And she cut the body of this 73 year old woman up into nine separate. pieces. Wow. Basically starting to butcher her. Yeah. The pieces just happened to be small enough to fit into this large kettle that she had. Really? So it was pretty calculated. Yeah. When she wasn't doing this willy-nilly. One of those witching brew kettle kind of thing, some picturing. Maybe. You know? I'm not sure there was smoke pouring out of it and I don't know that she was cackling, but you can look at it that way if you want.

Yeah. And she spent the whole night, you know, putting the body parts in the kettle, heating it up and stirring this pot, watching as the flesh melted off the bones. Yeah. Creating what was described as a black sludge. Pretty gross. Yeah. Sounds gross. Then she let it cool, right?

Took it off the heat. Let it cool. She put the sludge into a series of buckets. and then one by one took the buckets and dumped them in the septic tank. But things don't even let up at all because Leonardo had collected all of this woman's blood as she was dismembering the body and she let it quagulate. And then she spread it out onto some pans and put them in the oven. Okay. And every so often she would pull it out.

she would test it. Eventually, it became dry. It hardened up. And once it cooled, she was able to grind it into this brownish powder kind of look like flour. Yeah. And that's essentially how she used it. She mixed it with milk, some eggs, a little bit of sugar, some chocolate, and she made it into little cakes. Oh, nice. Except for the, if you're the one eating it. Right. That is. I mean, it's all macab. It's all gross. Right. But to think about eating unknowingly a part of another human being. Oh. Not even flesh. Just even just dried blood. It's still, it's so gross. That's gross. You know, just as if you lived up near Picton would have been really gross. I'll give her one thing, though. She's very inventive. She's like the Betty Crocker of doing. macab shit with people's bodies. Because that would take some time, you know, to watch the oven, see what's going to happen and then turn around and grind.

I mean, I thought she just would have washed it down, septic tank or something. And maybe we'll talk about that. What's the motivation? Yeah. I understand why she killed this woman in her mind, right? She did it to save her son. Sure. She also seems like she may have done it to take all her money.

Yeah. Now she's got to get rid of the body. But what's the motivation of taking all of this time and effort to essentially turn this woman's blood into flour and make cakes? So she's trying to do this so she can gain her son, extra life, her kids, extra health, wealth, life, you know? I mean, what's what's driving this? Or is it just out of spite? Because she could. No, you're exactly right.

You know, over the course of the next few weeks, she's. served these little cakes to people that, you know, came to visit, came into the shop. She even ate them herself. Okay. But the whole thing was born out of her concern that the sacrifice that she had offered up in the form of murdering this woman may not be enough. Right. To ward off the death of her son.

So somewhere she read or learned, eat another person's. blood somehow will you take that life internally into your own or other yeah she was studying a lot of dark magic whatever it was she felt like i better do extra yeah to to give myself a better chance yeah i could stop here but i'm going to go ahead and follow the way through with everything to just give us every edge we can get exactly and eight months later in september of nineteen 40 leonardo lured in a woman named Francesca Soavi. This was a 55-year-old widow. And they talked, right?

They built a friendship. Leonardo learned that Francesca had been depressed. And she looked at this woman, Leonardo, and thought she has it all going on, right? She can afford a home. She has established this business. So Leonardo, the wheel start turning. How can I take advantage of this woman? She starts to give her.

her readings. And she figured out that what she was really looking for was a good job, a way to make more money. Right. So that's what she used. She said that there was a job at an all-girls school. But again, just as she had done before, to get this job, you have to go through these series of steps and they have to be followed to the letter. And if you do that, you will be rewarded with this job. So again, she had to write all the letters to her family, to her friends, telling them that, hey, I'm fine. She was instructed not to tell them exactly where she was going until she arrived. Well, we know if it plays out the way it played out before, she's never going to get there

anyway. Yeah, she's not going to be writing anymore. And that was the big part of it, right? Write all the letters, but don't send them out. Send them when you get to. where you're going. Right. Well, because you're never getting there. Yeah, you're not. But I'll take your letters in the melon.

So she packed all of her things. She had 3,000 lire in about a dollar and 76 cents. Yeah, not a lot. As we know from last time, I guessed. Yeah. It's what she had. She thanked Leonardo. She got ready to leave to go to this all-girls school for her magical job.

and then she was given the wine, laced with drugs. And pretty much the exact same thing happened as had happened before with the first woman. But Francesca was bigger. She was a bigger woman than the 73 year old that Leonardo killed before. So when she boiled her down, there was quite a bit of fat more so than what there had been before. Right.

And so she decided not to pour it down the septic tank. She took the fat and made it into soap. Okay. Which is how she gets her nickname the soap maker. Right. So you take the fat, make it into soap, add some type of perfume, fragrance, whatever. Walla, you got some soap. What if she did any soap on a rope?

I don't know if that was a thing back then. Yeah. I never did like that. I don't know too many people really did like it. People in prison. Yeah. She also used it to make some candles, which in celebration, she lit human candles, essentially. Right.

Yeah. To celebrate. All this stuff she was doing. I think she realized Gibbs, I'm pretty good at this. Yeah. I can con people. I'm pretty good at killing them. And getting rid of them.

And getting rid of them. Taking their money. It's all working out. Yeah. But Francesca did have some family who began to worry. And they came to Leonardo and said, hey, you know, we're worried about her. So what did she do? She sat them down, got them some coffee, got them some cake.

Oh. And then as a parting gift gave them some soap and said, you know what? Don't worry. She's fine. Except for the fact that you just ate some of her. and the cake and you're later going to wash yourself with her as well. She's with you. Don't worry.

She's with you. She wasn't lying if she said that. But even through all this, right, she has in her mind sacrifice to women. She still doesn't feel like it's enough to ensure that her son makes it home from the war. Right. She's got to find another sacrifice. And she's not going to wait as long this time. In the same month, she targeted her neighbor, a 53-year-old woman named Virginia Caciapo.

Yeah. I don't know if I'm saying that correctly. I hope I am. But this woman was very well known. She was a former soprano singer. A lot of people knew who she was. Wow. I guess she was pretty good.

But she was 53 years old, right? Her singing days were probably long gone. Easy. She came to Leonardo. Not that 53 years old is old, but we all know the vocal chords don't hold up. And this is why I don't talk as much. Is that why? Because your vocal cords have not held up.

You know, if you've ever heard like, you know, name a singer who just had unbelievable pipes, but is still going in their 60s. they don't sound quite the same as they did when they were 24 years old. Unless you just don't. Unless you're Stephen Tyler. That is true. I'm not sure he's human. Yeah, I don't think.

I think he might be an alien. He might be. Because nobody should really be able to do what he does. Yeah. So this woman was kind of desperate for money. And that's what she came to Leonardo for. And just like the other two women, she was willing to do whatever, pay whatever she had to do. to get what was promised to her.

And in this case, it was a job as a secretary to a wealthy man in Florence, making good money. Yeah. You know, keep in mind, Leonardo's making all this up. None of this exists.

The girls at the old girls school, the man in the other country, or this secretary job to this wealthy man in Florence. It's all made up. But she doesn't in a believable way. Well, she's good at it. And that's what con men and women do. They are so good at taking what they know you want to hear and spending it in a way

where you're mesmerized. She told Virginia, you know what? You can't tell anyone this wealthy man is having an affair with me, Leonardo. And it would be devastating if anyone found out that, this powerful wealthy man is essentially stepping out with me, a little shop owner, soapmaker. This is what she's telling her. Right. Now, when you see the pictures of Leonardo, which I'm sure will post, right. She is not an attractive woman. Oh. Not sure how she spun the fact that she was able to land this wealthy playboy, but confidence. Confidence. Confidence.

right, which is where you get the word con man from confidence man is what it boils down to. But here's the problem, right? And this is where plans don't always go perfectly. So she told this woman Virginia don't tell anybody, but Virginia did. She told a few people. At the end of September, Virginia came around with her 50,000 lira. Oh, like $30. Yeah, about $30.

She also had some jewelry, bonds. She had a little bit more, right, than the other two women. She was actually kind of loaded. About an hour and 40 minutes after this woman got to Leonardo's, there was another batch Gibbs of cakes and soap. It's about how long it took for her to kill this woman, boil her, and start. making cakes and soaps. They didn't waste no time.

She was becoming efficient. Yeah. Proficient. I was going to say pro fission. Yeah. Now, this is the amazing thing about Leonardo Chinchuli. Later on in life, she wrote her own memoirs where she kind of spilled a lot of things. Right.

And in it, she said that this woman ended up in the pot like the other two, her flesh was fat and white. When it had melted, I added a bottle of cologne. And after some time on the boil, I was able to make some most acceptable creamy soap. Okay. She put pen to paper to write this out. Yeah. In her memoirs. She said, I gave bars to neighbors and acquaintances. She even said in this book that the cakes were better. So this is the third time she had done this. She perfected the recipe. She said that woman was really sweet. Oh.

Oh, so now she's going into each individual's flavor? That's what is she saying? Yeah. That the cakes that were made from this woman tasted better. They were sweeter. They were just better. Wow. The cakes were better.

The soap was creamier. So whatever this woman had was just, amazing for those products. But really, I could probably see something like that, right? Are you saying some people would taste better than others? Well, I would think, just looking at farm animals. Farm aminals? Let's look at some farm animals. Or farm animals. You know, you can butcher a hog, and one hog will taste different than the other. Same if you hunt deer, you know, a deer that runs versus a deer that drops will have definitely a different taste.

Well, yeah, I mean, I think some of that has to do with what acid that's released, fear, things like that. Same with cows. I mean, you can, any animals that we eat. Or what they eat, you know, makes a different. I hate to say it, but I guess it could be. I mean, it's why they fatten up. Yeah. Right.

Hogs. Cows. It's why they feed them certain things. things they they through the years have figured out this is what you do to make the best tasting yeah you would probably be spicy because you eat a lot of chipotle i do i do eat a lot of chapoli but how strange is this that years later this woman's going to sit down write a book yeah and detail out not only what she's done but the specifics of each person and how they tasted how their soap was. Right. It's bizarre. It is bizarre. It's like Martha Stewart, but in a bad way.

Yeah. You know? It's like an evil Martha Stewart slash Betty Crocker. Yeah. It's exactly what it is. So after the death of Virginia, Leonardo's flush. She's got a ton of money. She cashed some of the bonds. And those would later be traced back to her. She gave away some of the jewelry. But she, She blew money like crazy. She spent so much money Gibbs in such a short amount of time that her neighbors started getting extremely suspicious. Sure. Right. You know your neighbors.

You know what they do for the most part. If one of them comes home with a brand new Lambo, you're like, well, what's Dave doing? Yeah. Now, my first thought is he's not killing people, boiling them making cakes and soaps and taking all their money. But I am wondering what's going. on. Yeah. It was around this same time, Virginia's sister-in-law got one of her letters saying that, you know what, I'm okay. But even so, her sister-in-law was very concerned, concerned enough that she went to the police and said, something's not right with my sister-in-law. She told police that she

witnessed Virginia enter Leonardo's home on the day that she was last seen. And apparently, the sister-in-law was like a budding detective. She's like Sherlock Holmes. She spent a couple of hours watching the house. And she realized that Virginia never came out. So she went up and knocked on the door. Leonardo answered the door, was very friendly. They chatted, but there was no sign of Virginia. What her sister-in-law did see was a very mysterious bubbling cauldron on the kitchen stove. And she said the smell was horrific. Oh, I can only imagine. Which burning flesh, you would imagine, would be nauseating.

I don't know how this woman Leonardo was in there just stirring it, you know, like she's making a gumbo. Right. So you have three women, essentially from pretty much the same neighborhood, disappearing within a relatively short period of time. all of them had written similar letters, but the biggest tie was that they all knew Leonardo Chinchuli. Yeah, it's the one big tie in. So things are starting to come into focus, right? Police are about ready to figure out she's the soap maker.

She's been questioned, but has denied having anything to do with these three women. What's amazing gives is that when police, would come by to talk to her. Right. She would give them some of her cakes. Sure. So there's a good possibility that the police may have eaten some of these victims as well. Well, if it was donuts, they would ate it.

Yeah, I don't know if they ate the cake or not. I couldn't figure that out. The one thing that was for sure was that they were zeroed in on this woman. And eventually they did arrest her. But in another strange twist, right? she doesn't go on trial immediately for these murders. Again, World War II is raging. So her trial was pushed back until 1946.

That's a long time. That's a long time to be sitting waiting for a trial. Now, in the United States, that would violate your right to a speedy trial for sure. I'm guessing maybe back then they didn't have that in Italy. Or the war and the need to push it back, Trump at all. I don't know. But that's also a long time for police to continue to investigate. And that's what they did, right?

They collected as much evidence as they could over the years. And the one thing that they started to believe was that there was no way that this 50-something year old woman could have done all of these things by herself. Right. Killed these three women. Chopped. Dismembered them. boiled them.

Now, as I'm saying it, I'm thinking, she probably could have, but they didn't believe it. They decided that her son Giuseppe had to have been involved in these murders. So what? When he had leave time, he would come back in. Well, this is where it got really fuzzy. I could not figure out, obviously the police had to have placed him in the area during certain times,

had to have. Sure. You know, so maybe it was, like you said, he had leave. He was able to come home sometimes because the whole thing about the sacrifice was supposed to be, the sacrifices, I should say, was supposed to be so that he didn't die in the war. Well, there you go. Maybe in her mind the sacrifices were probably working because maybe he was coming home more, being in Italy instead of being overseas where the problems were.

Yeah, but it was fuzzy. It definitely was not spelled out where I could find it. But I think, you know, one of the most damning pieces of evidence the police had was from Virginia's sister-in-law. This timeline that she had provided to them. And that's where they got that the murder, the dismemberment, and the boiling down of this woman could have taken probably no longer than an hour. and 40 minutes. That's really fast. It is. It is. When you think about a 50-some-year-old woman, I think she can do it. I think she was a sturdy woman. I've seen pictures of her, but it's the time. That's very quick. Oh, I think it's extremely quick in the cleanup. Now, I've never dismembered a

body, but I can't imagine that it's the easiest, quickest thing to accomplish. Well, it's not like they had the tools that we have today. So I don't know what kind of tools they would have back then that might have assisted them. But I just think that's really fast. No, I do too. And I think that's where the police were headed with all this. So they arrested Giuseppe as an accomplice. But when Leonardo found out, she offered a full confession. So unlike her mother, I think she really did care about her children. Yeah. And she didn't want her son to take the fall, whether he had any part in it or not.

Right. But the problem is the police didn't believe her. So she had to talk them into believing her. And this is the way she did it. She came up with a test. She had them take her to the morgue with a judge, the police, and some doctors. And it was said that in about 12 minutes, she walked them through and proved her ability to dismember a corpse into these nine pieces.

Now, I don't think that would fly today as a way to prove something. But I guess it'd be just like someone deboning the chicken. I hate to say it that way, but if you know exactly were to cut, you can do it fairly fast. So I guess if she, over this time, she realized where she needed to cut or you take the hatchet, ax to, she probably did what she said she did, I guess. Well, whatever she pointed out to them. Yeah. It was enough for them to believe. Hey, this woman did this.

Yeah. She's telling us exactly how she did it. Now, she did admit that her son had mailed some of the letters on her behalf. to some of these people's families. Yeah. And even disposed of some of the bones, right? Because you had the, women talked about the bones. Yeah, he still had the bones you had to do with.

So she wrapped them in paper. She gave them to Giuseppe. He took them down to the river and threw him in. But she said he had no idea what was in there. I just told him, take this and throw it in the river. Yeah. And it was a good son. He did that for me.

So according to her, he had no knowledge of the crimes and was just running an errand, basically. And it was enough. It was enough to convince police that he was innocent. And they let him go. And then she started to really get into confessing. And during trial, it was said that she would correct the prosecutors if they got something wrong. Oh. She wanted it to be told the right way. She wanted the record to state exactly how she did it. She wanted it to be accurate. She's like, nope, you got that wrong. Yeah. I did it this way. I had it on 350, not 375. Yeah. And you got to go two hours because if you go an hour and 37 minutes, it's not going to come out. Yeah. It's not going to be the way we want it. Now, at the same time, she did try to present herself as a victim in all of this.

Sure. I was cursed. Yeah. I had this curse on me. What was I supposed to do? I had to get out from under this curse. I was trying to shake it. Shake it off. Yeah. But really, even in doing that, all she did was help the prosecution's case because she's saying, yeah, I did all these things. And here's how I did them exactly. Yeah. And here's my motive. But I'm still the victim. So we talked about World War II, right, Gibbs. And you know what it was like here during World War II. What were you? 15, 16 years old. You remember the rationing and all that. No, you read about it. Right about it.

In the history books. Well, they had the same thing in Italy. As the war was winding down, I guess they were in desperate need of metal. Okay. So you know what Leonardo did? She donated her kettle. Oh. To the war effort that she had used to boil these three women with.

She was a patriot. Yeah, she gave to her country. It was kind of like, you know, people in the United States bought war bonds to help with the effort. She donated her. Big old kettle. Kettle. Killing instruments and her boiling instruments. Now, there was a big argument about whether she was sane or insane.

She was diagnosed as being manic, but not insane. And was sentenced to 30 years in prison and three years in a. criminal asylum. Exactly what one of the fortune tellers told her. That would happen and it did. Right. Your one hand says you're going to go to prison. Right.

Your other hand says you're going to some type of asylum. Yeah. Spot on. So even though she was found guilty, her son never could believe that his mother did all this. I think because of what she went through, it sounds like she was a pretty good mom. Now, she was a terrible human being. Yes. But I think her kids were everything.

Were everything to her. I think she doaded on them. Her son loved her. Yeah. And he couldn't square this woman that had raised him, that had loved him all his life with a woman that killed three people and boiled them in a kettle. Yeah, doing something so horrific. Just couldn't do it. But then her memoir came out, which we talked about.

Yeah. It was called Confessions of an Embittered Soul. And like I said, in this book, she detailed every single detail of the murders. Giuseppe's like, oh. Oh, you did do that. Yeah. All right, mom. I still love you.

But I am looking at you differently now. Leonardo died of a stroke in October of 1970. While she was still at this women's criminal asylum, I don't. don't know Gibbs whether she outlived all her children. I couldn't find a lot of information on her children. You know, if she did, then that would have fulfilled the prophecy. Yeah. But I don't know. Because like I said about her husband, if these people didn't really do anything of note, didn't get in trouble, they didn't do anything to make the papers. It's very hard to find information on them. But as we're wrapping this up, you talk about what she has said, right, that I had to make these

sacrifices. It was the only way to save my children from dying before me, which was what I was told would happen. But how do you square that with a few things? Number one, why did you have to kill three people? Right. To save your son who's in the war. And why did you have to kill? You have to kill. have to take fleece all of these women out of their life savings. Right. Doesn't add up for the reasons that she said she did. No, no. It doesn't all compute.

It's more con stuff. It's greed. It's much more than in my mind I feel like I need to make a sacrifice. There was just much more to it. Yeah. But if you're making a sacrifice and they have this money and whatever, I mean, at that point, why not go ahead and take it and because who else is going to have it? So you're going with the theory of if you kill somebody,

you might as well rifle through their pockets and take to whatever they have. At that point, we already did the biggest deed, so why not just go ahead and, you know. I guess the difference is the amount of pre-planning that went into it. You could tell. She was really setting out to fleece these women out of their money. But maybe you're right.

Maybe she just decided that she was already going to kill them. Right. I might as well fatten up my bank account at the same time. And then I think we already did ask this question, but why did she feel the need to feed the victims to herself, to probably her son, to other people? I mean,

the only thing I really saw was that there's a possibility that she felt it would enhance, right, the black magic or the sacrifice or whatever you want to call it. Other than that, it's just downright gruesome. Yeah, it really is. In 1979, they made a play. Essentially, based on this woman's life,

it was titled Love and Magic in Mama's Kitchen. Mama's Kitchen. And it was a hit. In 1983, it was on Broadway. And we have to mention this place in Rome. Gibbs, it's called the Criminological Museum. It sounds like a fascinating place, but of all the many things that they have,

they have one of the pots. Oh. That she boiled her victims. Okay. To turn them into soap. Yeah. They have the hacksaw. Wow.

They have a knife, a hatchet, and a hammer. There's a good amount of our listeners that just got really excited about that and they want to go to this museum. Well, they have some other artifacts related to the. the case as well. But I have to admit, if I was in Rome, I would want to go see it. I mean, it's, it's history. To me, it's no different than going to the Smithsonian, right? If I'm in D.C., I want to go to the Smithsonian. I want to see some of the real artifacts from history. Yeah. I don't look at this as any different. It happened. It's tragic, but it is history. I wonder if you could, you know, when you can give blood, right?

I wonder if someone could give a bag or two of blood. I don't remember what they're called. Pint. What do you give? I don't remember. I don't know. You're drinking a Guinness at the bar? Yeah.

A pint of blood, yeah, I guess. You know, and like give it and try to reproduce these cakes? I would not advise it. You think some people would try it, knowing that it's, it's not from a dead person. It's from somebody that voluntarily gave their blood for the recipe to see what these things. I see what you're saying. So, chance. are somebody's already done it. Yeah. Somebody that read about this case was familiar with this case.

They could have used their own blood. I don't know. Yeah. Now, that's not for me. I'll go to the museum. I ain't eaten no blood cakes. Yeah. Alive or volunteer blood. It's just not happening. Gotcha. But that's it. That's the story of Leonardo Chinchuli, the soap maker of Correggio. Oh, it's a very interesting case. I think it is very interesting for a case that goes back, what, 70, almost 80 years now? Yeah, yeah. Pretty heinous. Yeah, absolutely.

And so, I mean, the one part that really, well, there's a lot of parts that really got my attention, but the one was that she actually wrote about it in great detail. Yep. Wrote her own memoirs. Yeah. If somebody did that today, that would be a number one bestseller. Now, in the United States, I don't know how that works. You can't make money.

You can't profit from your crimes. No. Could you write the book as long as you didn't get any money from it? Meaning, could the publisher profit from it? Or it all go to the victim's families. However, it worked. Yeah. If a well-known serial killer, let's say the Golden State killer, if this guy gets convicted

and then sets down and writes a book, it would be a number one bestseller. People would flock to that like crazy. But can he tell his story to somebody else that writes it as an unauthorized and that person can deposit money to him? I don't know. I don't know how that works. Yeah. All I know is he.

can't profit for his crimes if he's convicted. But you're right. That would be a smash hit. Big time. No doubt about it. The one thing about this case for me is I might think about it the next time I'm offered a little cake. I'm going to steer away from homemade soap for a while. I got to be honest with you there. I don't see you as a homemade soap type of guy. Well, we've had people that make homemade soap listeners send it in. I used it all. Yeah. Now, what was in it, I have no idea. Yeah. Squeaky clean. I know that. All right. We got some voicemails. You want to check those out? Get us here.

Hey, guys. This is Bruna from Brazil calling. I've been binging on your show ever since my ex-boyfriend broke up with me. And I guess I've been living my murder fantasies vitality through the show. I'm just kidding. But I wanted to say congratulations. And to tell you that there are a few cases here in Brazil that you could look. One of them is the case of a six-year-old girl called Isabella Nardoni. And the other one is Susame Van Histoplin. She wasn't an adolescent and she killed his. Oh, down in Brazil.

Sounds like we need to go to Brazil. Yeah. We see some rubber trees. Check out some of those cases. Yeah. Well, breakups are tough. Yeah. So, again, if we're helping in any small way, I like that.

Just takes time. It does. Hi, my name's Olivia. I am from Walkertown, North Carolina. I am actually only on the Betty Lou Beat podcast, but my last name is Donovan. So that totally threw me off, and I totally had to Google it. And since they're from Rockwood, North Carolina, I thought that was super trippy. So I just wanted to share that fun fact.

Love you guys. The podcast, awesome. And my true crime obsession grows every day. Well, have a great one. Bye. I can hear her accent trying to come out, but she's holding it back. She's not it's there in the, it's just underneath the surface. Is that what you're saying? Absolutely. So she's got a lot of episodes to go, which is great. The other thing I'll say, there, there are a lot of people that either email, more than email. Yeah.

That listen to an episode and realize Gibbs that they have some connection to a case that sometimes they didn't even really know much about. And I always find that very fascinating, right? It might be a case in their hometown. Sometimes I hear from people whose mothers were teachers that taught the perpetrator. There's just so many connections. And to that point, one of our listeners messaged me this week and said that they just found out through their aunt that they're related to one of Gacy's victims. And they thought that because they were a huge Gacy. And didn't even know that. Didn't even know that. Yeah.

Yeah. Gacy's definitely coming up at some. point. I've been thinking about him a lot lately. Not, okay, just in, in the fact that I feel like we need to do him at some point. Right. He's always been one of those killers that, you know, has really fascinated me. All right. Appreciate that. We definitely have that case on our, uh, on our list. On our list. Yep. Those names are very familiar. Hey, this is George Nicholas and Hendersonville, North Carolina. I love the podcast. You guys are great. Awesome. You're driving me crazy. on this last one.

I'm a chef, and I'll tell you what, it is not turnips. It is beet that you're talking about. Beats have the red fluid turnips. They do not. However, I do love the podcast. You guys are just awesome.

Love the banter between you two. Y'all keep it up. And we'll talk to y'all later. Keep your own time of ticket. Love it. Love it. So I forget actually which episode he's talking about, but it's where the gentleman tried to tell the police

that he was cutting up something and the juice got on him got on it yeah i thought about that and i actually looked in a bunch of different places yeah beats makes a lot of sense but i think it adds to the story because i think what he told them was turnips and it's probably why it made even less sense to them right and we just didn't expand on exactly but in all the research it was said that he tried to tell the cops that he was cutting up turnips. But we appreciate it. We love to hear from chefs, all kinds of different people that have the experience. I just like Brazil.

Someone from Brazil called us. It's amazing, isn't it? Yeah. All right, we had mailbag. Oh, I like mailbag. Janet Hart, our good, good friend, sent us some awesome fridge magnets. Oh, okay. From Okinawa.

Okinawa. Japan. man, and also Vegas. Awesome. I'm really digging these fridge magnets. Yeah, you do. You really like fridge magnets. Yeah, I got them.

I put them all on the fridge, our studio fridge, where you get your monsters from. Yeah. To try to stay awake. Need it, man. Well, I'm talking. Yeah. And then our friends at True Crime Sweden podcast. Do you remember them?

We met them. They were great. Awesome. We met them in Chicago. They sent us some really awesome stuff from Sweden. Appreciate that. And they're great. women and their podcast is great. You should check it out. Yeah, definitely jump over there and listen.

Yeah, we really like them a lot. That's it, Gibbs. That is it for another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.