True Crime All The Time - Leopold and Loeb

Episode Date: March 21, 2022

On May 21st, 1924 Nathan Leopold and Richard Loeb kidnapped and murdered 14-year-old Bobby Franks in Chicago, Illinois. The police were able to follow the clues and they eventually led to Leopold and Loeb. When the full story came out it captivated the world.Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the case of Leopold and Loeb. Both young men came from wealthy families and they were both extremely intelligent. During their confessions, they said they killed solely for the thrill of the experience. They attempted but failed, to commit the perfect crime. All of these factors caused the fascination into this case which remains one of the most high-profile murder cases in the history of The United States of America.You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 275 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime. Mike Gibson, Gibby, how are you? I'm doing good, man. How about yourself? I'm doing great, but I'm shocked at 275. Yeah.

And that is a shocking number. Love it. It really is. And we have a very high profile case on tap for everybody in this episode. Before we get there, though, let's give our Patreon shoutouts. we had Kayla Brower. Hey, Kayla. Ashley Haston.

What's going on, Ashley? Kate Davis. Well, thank you, Kate. Aaron Ferraro. What's going on, Ferraro? Michelle Williams. Hey, Michelle. Nikki Witcher.

What's going on, Witcher? Aaron Fletcher. Hey, Fletcher. Nikki Ann. Thank you, Nikki. Connie Calderon. Jumped out of our highest level. Calderon.

Audrey the Japanese Spitz. Well, that's a beautiful doggy. Which you had to tell me on our, our Patreon episode, that that was a dog. Yeah. Because I was worried that that that was going to offend somebody. I had no idea what it was. Nice, nice looking doggy.

Charlotte Dennis. Hey, Charlotte. Elizabeth Ask Vig jumped out to our highest level. What's going on? Ask Vig. Did you just say Asvig? Because there's a K in there. And I'm pretty sure they're going to want that K in.

Well, you know. We had Angel Brady jump out of our highest level. What's going on, Angel? And last but not least, Joshua. Slagers. Hey, Slagers. And if we go back into the vault, this week, we selected Michael Milhouse. Hey, Michael.

So we appreciate the new Patreon support, the continued support. We had some great PayPal donations from Aubrey Eldridge. Hey, Aubrey. Rachel Isabel. Thank you, Rachel. And Judy Larson. There's Judy. So thanks to everyone.

Gibbs right now on Unsolved. We have an episode out on the Ta-Nong North and Frankston murders in Australia. So we're headed back to 1980. Yeah. Six women disappeared and we're later found murder. And that's a good, good episode to listen to. Yeah. No, there's a lot of fascinating things about this case.

People should definitely check it out. Yeah. All right, buddy, are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time? I am, man. I mentioned it right up front. This is a famous case. We are talking about Leopold and Loeb. We're headed back to the 19.

1920s, you know, these were two young guys. And I think it was partly that, partly their crime, their victim and their backgrounds that caused their case to become a national sensation. It really was the murder of Bobby Franks remains one of the most high profile murder cases in United States history. It was on May 21st, 1924. that Nathan Leopold and Richard Loeb kidnapped and murdered 14-year-old Bobby Franks. I think the question that most people asked right from the get-go was what? Well, it's a shocking answer. Yeah, because in their own words, they said solely for the thrill of the experience.

They just wanted the experience. They just wanted to know what it was like to kill someone. and they thought it would be a thrill. They thought it would be an experience. So in this episode, we'll discuss how Leopold and Loeb's lives connected their horrific crime as well as their sensational murder trial. Now, Leopold and Loeb were best friends. It's been alleged that they were lovers.

But at one point, they were just two strangers leading similar lives. They both grew up in Kenwood, an upper class Jewish neighborhood in Chicago's south side. They met in the summer of 1920. While both were studying at the University of Chicago, Richard Loeb was 15 and Nathan Leopold was 16. So I think we're going to see as we talk about, you know, these individuals, some similarities to you give, similarities between them, obviously. Sure. But also some similarities to you. Yeah. I mean, at the age of 15, 16, they're already in college. Well, there you go. Obviously, they were very intelligent as were you. Of course. You noticed I didn't say as you are. I said, as were you. Well, the way that you use as were you shows you who the real intelligent person is. Oh, okay. Okay. I like it. I like it. So no doubt they probably formed a friendship. I mean, first of all, they were both young, right? Advanced students who grew up in the same neighborhood.

So they quickly became close friends. Nathan Frodenthall Leopold Jr. was born on November 19th, 1904 in Chicago, Illinois. Frodenthal. That's a mouthful. It is. It's a name that I'm not really seen all that much. He was a brilliant student.

I just mentioned it, right? he's at the University of Chicago at the age of 15. He earned distinction as an amateur ornithologist, which I know you do a little bit of bird watching, bird studies. Yeah. I got my little bird book. I do the little drawing,

sketch, you know. Now you're sitting up in a tree with binoculars. I think it's a little hinky, but you say it's ornithology. That's right. We'll agree to disagree. Leopold published two papers in the,

leading ornithological journal in the country. This is heady stuff, man. When you're talking about, you know, the age of 15, 16, number one, to be in college. Yeah. Right. So you're getting into the area of Dugie, Sheldon, you know, are you ready to be in college as a 15 year old? Academically, he probably was.

Sure. Are you mentally? I don't know that I was ready at the age of 18. or however old I was when I went. It's not as easy as everybody thinks it is, you know. But you've always said it was super easy. Well, for me it is, but for my friends, I went. As other people think.

Okay. Exactly. Okay. I always think about this bird watching, and I remember that movie with Jack Black. I think Steve Martin was in it, but it's all about seeing. They're fighting over these birds,

watching these birds. I never saw it, but I saw the preview for it. They travel all over the world, and the first one that's, like discover some species, I think, or whatever it is. When's the price? Whatever the prize is. Was it a good movie?

It was an okay movie. Okay. Well, I just remember them going around and looking for birds. You've really done everybody a service then by pointing that out. Don't even know what it's called. Leopold came from a wealthy and well-connected family. His father was a businessman who owned a shipping company and worked in the aluminum can and

paper box manufacturing industries. Big money back then. Well, you would think so. To be honest with you, I didn't even realize that in the 1920s, aluminum cans were a big deal. Yeah. I just equate that with coming along a little bit later. But his estimated net worth was $4 million in 1924. Again, that's big money.

Well, if you're worth $4 million today, that is a boatload of money. $1924 Gibbs, $4 million, do me a little extrapolation to today's economy. It's like $62 million. I will go with it. I actually think it's much, much higher than that, but somebody will write in. They always do. No doubt, Leopold was extremely intelligent. And I think to back that up, it was said that he could speak nine languages and had an estimated

IQ of 200. So again, a little bit lower than than yours. Exactly. You're in the 221, 222 range, if I, if I remember correctly. But I don't, he speaks more languages. That's for sure. You don't speak nine languages. I do not.

You barely speak English. Barely. But your IQ is very, very high. By 1924, Leopold was studying law at the University of Chicago. So he's got all this going for him. He's smart. Yeah. comes from a good family. He comes from a good family, also a very wealthy and connected family.

People expected very big things from him. I think this is the other thing or the other reason why this case received so much publicity, right? These weren't two kids from the wrong side of the tracks who chose to do something really, really bad. These were kids from amazingly well, families who should have gone on to do great things, but chose to do bad things. Yeah, they had every opportunity to have everything given to them. Oh. Just that work hard? I'm sure they wanted for nothing.

Sure. Richard Loeb was born on June 11th, 1905 in Chicago. He also came from a very wealthy family. His father was the vice president of Sears Roebuck and Company. That's big. That's big right there. That was, you know, you talk about the 1920s. Yeah. Sears was massive.

Sears Roebuck or, you know, it's gone through a number of name changes. Sure. There was no Walmart. Nope. There was no Kmart. I don't believe in the 20s. I don't know, you know, when those came around 50s or 60s, I believe. You got your Sears catalog book and ordered what you wanted.

Yeah. It was the place to go. It was said. that his dad had a net worth of about $10 million. Again, healthy amount of funds. Loeb was the third of four sons. He graduated high school at the age of 15 and studied at the University of Chicago. But unlike Nathan Leopold, Loeb didn't succeed in school. He earned what was said to be like middling grades. You know, he got by. Bees and Cs, probably. So, at the end of his second year, he transferred to the University of Michigan.

Now, I said these were kids who probably didn't want for anything. My thought is that would have been true as long as they're doing what they're supposed to be doing. Right. It sounded to me as though Loeb's family might have cut him off when he wasn't getting the grades they thought that he should have been getting because it said, you know, when he got to Michigan, he was pretty much just a poor student. and still didn't go to school or classes all that much, spent most of his time playing cards and reading books. He also became an alcoholic. Well, I think he was bored. Well, he could have been bored. The other thing that kind of jumps out, you know, to me is, you know, was this a kid who never really had an obstacle, right? You get to be 15, 16, 17 years old and you've never had two

fight through adversity. Now all of a sudden, all right, you're in school. Maybe things are tough and you don't have the skills to battle through. Right. And so you give up, maybe. I'm just throwing that out there as a possibility. That's very reasonable. I think that.

Yeah. I mean, I think it's why a lot of parents are very careful, even when they have money to kind of walk that line between spoiling your kids and giving them what they need and sometimes what they want when they're doing the right things, but not making it so that they're so pampered and they're so sheltered that they believe everything should be just handed to them. They just expect it.

Yeah, it's a fine line. At the age of 17, Loeb graduated from the University of Michigan. And let's not act like the University of Michigan is not a very good school. You know, to us, it's the school up north when it comes to the football rivalry with Ohio State. But the University of Michigan is a top-notch academic school. It really is. There's really no way around it. The University of Chicago is as well.

But it's not like he dropped out to Podunk State University. No. So after graduation, he returned to Chicago in the fall of 1923 to study history at the University of Chicago. And that's really when, you know, Loeb and Leopold kind of continued their friendship or rekindled their friendship, however you want to look at it. Many noted that they were an unlikely pair. The Smithsonian magazine reported that Loeb was gregarious and extroverted while Leopold was misanthropic and aloof. So it's a difference. There is a difference there. Now, opposites attract we've said that it happens in romantic relationships i also sometimes think it happens

in friendships it does right not everybody can be the kind of alpha or the outgoing one who sucks all the oxygen out of the room right you know sometimes you need that person that's a little more introverted maybe a little more introspective who kind of keeps everything on an even keel yeah Level set it. Right. So that's how that's why you and I get along. That's right. So well.

I try to level set it. Yeah. But whatever it was, it worked, right? They remained close friends. And as time past, the attraction between them grew.

And we're going to talk about that attraction quite a bit. Loeb engaged in destructive behavior just for thrills. I mean, this is a kid who stole cars, smashed door windows. He was known to have committed a number of arson. fires. He was always looking for that next great thrill, right? So I set this building on fire. That's thrilling. Right. To me. But now what? But now what? I've got to up the stakes,

something that we often talk about with serial killers. Now, what Loeb liked was that Leopold was always willing to go along with him. And it was said that Leopold admired Loeb for, these kind of daring feats. And Loeb painted himself, you know, with this image as though he was a master criminal. Sure. And he had that reinforcement from his partner. Lobe was fascinated by criminal psychology. As many are.

Yeah, as many are. He was always reading detective novels and crime stories in the papers. Leopold was passionate about philosophy, specifically finding. philosophical concepts that justified criminal acts, I guess Gibbs a lot of times he spoke of Nietzsche's Superman. Yeah. A human being who could rise above both good and evil. According to Nietzsche, the Superman emerges when a man with superior potential masters himself and strikes off the Christian herd mentality to create his own morals and values rooted in life on earth rather than in afterlife. So everybody's heard of Nietzsche. I honestly can't say I've read Nietzsche.

Oh, you never read that? No. I'm sure you had to in your master studies program. Yeah, in seventh grade. But I'm hearing some of these things and I'm thinking, okay, that's not going to go over well with the religious community at all. But, you know, the thing is both of these boys, both Leopold and believe they were Superman or Superman, right, because of their intelligence and their privileges. This very much Gibbs reminds me of that movie, Murder by Numbers. You know, just what I'm talking about, Sandra Bullock is the detective. You've got a young Ryan Gosling and a guy from Boardwalk Empire. Okay. Yeah.

Is that the right name of the movie, Murder by Numbers? I don't know. Perfect murder. I don't know. It's something like that. But basically, that's what they're trying to do, right? Is, you know, commit the perfect murder because they think they're so smart. Exactly. Additionally, Leopold was allegedly in love with Loeb and he did anything he asked as long as Loeb continued a sexual relationship with him. He wrote in a letter, Loeb's friendship was necessary to me, terribly necessary. He said his only motive was to please Dick, which was Loeb's nickname.

Now, sources are very inconsistent on if both of these young men were gay or if only Leopold was gay. But all sources seem to agree that Leopold went along with Loeb schemes in exchange for sexual favors. So on November 10th, 1923, Leopold agreed to drive Loeb from Chicago to, to the University of Michigan to burglarize Loeb's former fraternity, Zeta, Beta, Tao. The journey took about six hours. They got there. They only managed to steal about $80 worth of change, watches, pen knives, and a typewriter, which, you know, $80 in the 1920s, nothing to sneeze at.

It's quite a bit of money. Yeah, but these guys were from wealthy families, so it would be somewhat disappointing. I think they were disappointed, you know, in the fact that they had driven six hours. they'd put so much effort into the burglary, and they really just didn't get that much out of it. And apparently during the drive home, Loeb discussed his idea to carry out what he called the perfect crime. Again, some eerie parallels back to this movie. And maybe, just maybe they structured some of that movie off of Leopold and Load. Now, by this time, the two already had a lengthy list of criminal experiences.

burglary, vandalism, arson, but none of their crimes had ever really come to light. It wasn't like, you know, they had been reported in the papers or anything like that. Loeb wanted to do something that would get the attention of the whole city. And Gibbs, his idea was to kidnap and murder a child, then demand ransom from the parents. That's bold. Yeah, it's bold. It's nasty. But it's going to get the attention of an entire city.

I think of Lindbergh. Think of, you know, some famous kidnappings of young children. Now, Lindberg was famous already. Sure. So that played a part into it. But I think what they thought was that, you know, no one would ever suspect us, right? We are untouchable. We come from these idyllic families.

Yeah. We're rich. They had a very good social status. Posh. Posh. why would we need to go out and commit these petty crimes or why would we need to kidnap and murder a kid for ransom? We don't need the money. Our families have plenty of it.

So this was Loeb's plan. Leopold didn't object to the plan and they spent the entire fallen winter planning this crime. They settled on demanding a $10,000 ransom. But I think the sticking point, and this often is when you're talking about, talking about a ransom deal is how do you get the money. It's one thing to say, I want $10,000 in unmarked bills. But at some point, there's got to be a money transfer. Sure. And that's the, the part where most people would get caught. They decided to instruct the victim's father to throw a packet with the money from the train that traveled south of Chicago along the elevated

tracks west of Lake Michigan. So their idea was to wait below in a car once the money hit the ground, they'd grab it and they'd take off. Okay, now you're talking about some big Lobowski type stuff here. I don't know if you remember in that one. The dude was supposed to throw the briefcase or the suitcase out of the car over the side and then the people would grab it at the bottom. Right.

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for about two hours and they hadn't seen a potential victim. So they're out essentially cruising for a victim. Yeah. This is serial killer type behavior. Yeah. Who are we going to find and when are we going to kill them?

Yeah. It's predator behavior, right? Leopold was driving along Ellis Avenue when Loeb saw his distant cousin, Bobby Franks walking on the opposite side of the street. Bobby's father was also wealthy and they thought, well, he can afford the ransom. So right then and there, Loeb told Leopold that Bobby would be their victim. Leopold turned around and pulled up beside Bobby. It was at that point that Loeb shouted, hey, Bob, he was sitting in the backseat. He said, hello, Bob, I'll give you a ride. But Bobby declined,

saying he could walk because he was almost home. This Smithsonian magazine reported that Loeb was insistent. He was badgering this kid. Get in the car. I want to talk to you about the tennis racket you had yesterday. I want to get one for my brother. Bobby moved close to the car. At one point, Loeb considered grabbing him,

but he really wanted Bobby to get in willingly. And just a moment later, Bobby did. Got in the car. He got in the front seat. Loeb introduced him to Leopold. Loeb told Bobby that they would just drive around the block and talk. As the car passed 49th Street, Loeb reached for the chisel that he'd put in the car. He and Leopold had taped up the blade so that they could use it as a club.

Leopold turned left as they passed 50th Street. Bobby looked away from Loeb and faced the front. And that's when Loeb reached over, grabbed Bobby with his left hand. and covered his mouth to quiet his screams. He hit Bobby in the back of the head twice. But Bobby was still conscious. And he twisted out of his seat. He was raising his hands to protect himself.

Loeb hit him twice in the forehead, opening up a large hole in his skull and gives blood spilled out everywhere inside the car. Bobby's a fighter. Yeah. I mean, I think self-preservation, right, kicks in at some point. Was he wary, leery? Probably not. I mean, this is a distant cousin. He knows this person. Does he think this person's going to do something bad to him? But when you get hit with those first two blows, okay, now you know something's wrong. So you have to go into self-defense mode. I think it's pretty tough though. When you know, you get hit in the forehead so badly that it opens up a large hole in your skull. You're in a lot of trouble. You are.

But Bobby was still conscious at this point. Loeb pulled him into the back of the car, jammed a rag down his throat and taped his mouth shut. And Bobby died on the floor of that car. The boys drove around with the body until it got dark. They removed Bobby's clothes and dumped them along the road, then dumped his shoes near a lake. They poured hydrochloric acid on his face to disfigure him.

And then once it was sufficiently dark, they stuffed his body into a culvert several miles south of the city. But they failed to notice that a pair of Leopold's glasses fell to the ground as all of this was going on. And obviously that's going to come back later to bite him. But, you know, I do want to talk about this horrific murder. You know, the initial thought is, okay, we're just going to drive around till. we find a victim. But then Loeb sees his cousin and he thinks, okay, who better? We already know his family has money. So it won't be a problem getting the 10,000. Yeah, and maybe that played into it. You know, if you're just picking random people off the street, how would these boys know, you know,

what kind of backgrounds they have if their family even has enough money to, you know, pay a $10,000 dollar ransom. Well, they sure knew that Bobby's family had the money to pay it, but it's definitely not going to go the way that they thought it would. The two returned to Loeb's home. They burned more of Bobby's clothes in the basement. They cleaned out the rental car. They then threw the typewriter used to write the ransom note off a bridge near the harbor entrance at Jackson Park. They wrapped up the bloody robe that they had used to conceal Bobby. body and burned it near a lakeshore. And they threw away the chisel on a road. So they appear to be getting rid of all the evidence. Yeah, again, let's, you know, not forget.

They're out to commit the perfect crime. So to do that, you have to plan ahead. You have to think of every detail. You have to get rid of every possible piece of incriminating evidence. And I'll be honest with you. They did it a hell of a lot better than a lot of killers that we talk about. Absolutely. Who are sloppy, who don't really seem to either understand about forensic science or even care, I guess. So once they had done all this, Leopold dropped the ransom letter into a post office box. It was set to arrive at the Frank's house at 8 a.m.

And then the two went to bed. thinking Gibbs in their heads that they had committed the perfect crime. Yeah, they thought they were golden. Just like pony boy. Just like pony boy. Stay golden. But here's where, you know, things start to go awry because it was just the next day on the 22nd that a passerby found Bobby's body in the culvert. This was before his family even received the ransom note. Okay, that's a big problem in your perfect crime plan. Oh, it's a huge problem. You can't have a ransom when you've already killed the person that you're trying to ransom.

Exactly. You have no leverage. And the timing is eerie, right? So the bodies found not too much later. The Franks opened the ransom note that morning. They saw that the kidnapper demanded $10,000 in unmarked bills in exchange for Bobby's return. So, you know, I think as any parent would, you're frantic, you're scrambling. How do we get this money? We got to get our son back. Sure. We'll do whatever it takes.

How do we get this money together? How's it going to be delivered? Who do we get involved? But then they quickly learned that Bobby was dead. In fact, the Franks identified his body that very morning. And it was reported Gibbs that Richard Loeb actually joined the family in their search for evidence. Obviously, he's got to put on a front. He sure does. Because Bobby was his cousin. So police are called out to this scene, this culvert, right, where the body was found. And it was at the scene that they found a pair of eye glasses. And at first, they thought the glasses belonged to Bobby. So much so that the funeral home actually put these glasses on him. Which was a good thing.

It was a good thing because it caused a family member to see the glasses, say, hey, these weren't his, and that kind of changed the course of investigators' minds. The state's attorney Robert Crow traced ownership of the glasses. It was said that the prescription was very average, but the frames had a, very specific hinge that had only been sold to three people in Chicago. Well, that definitely increases your odds of finding who did this. Yeah, it's very narrow, right? Oftentimes, we're talking about a make of tire that, you know, 100,000 people had bought

or, you know, some outrageous number that the police obviously would have a very hard time tracking down. Now, if you're telling me, we only have to look at three individuals. Okay. I'm feeling pretty optimistic. Absolutely. Crow found an optometrist who had prescribed the glasses to three people. Two patients were accounted for. They found out that one man had been out of the country and another patient was a woman.

So they ruled these two individuals out. I don't know how they ruled out the woman, but my assumption is it was probably based on the fact that they just didn't believe a woman was capable of committing this type of crime in the 1920s. That could have been a real possibility, Gibbs, or maybe Shad an alibi. I didn't see anything about it. Sure. So I can only assume. But really what that did was it left Nathan Leopold as the only suspect. But the police even doubted that he was involved. But still, they went to his home to bring him in for questioning. Nathan explained that he dropped the glasses while he was bird hunting.

He was big into birds, right? Did we talk about it? We did, yeah. It makes, and it can make sense, you know, explain that way. You can push that off as out checking out some birds, let's have dropped them at that location. Well, and I think to back it up,

it did come out that he frequently led birding expeditions near the location where Bobby's body was found, he said they probably just fell out of his pocket. He also said that he spent his night driving around in his Willie's Knight car with his friend Richard Lowe. Willie's Night car. Yeah. I don't know what a Willie's Night is.

Willys I'm familiar with. But Willie's Knight, that's new. Maybe it's a Willie's Knight, like a Chevrolet Impala. it because willies i thought was a car brand didn't they make a lot of the jeeps like a willies like a military style jeep is that willies or wileys i don't know yeah no either but i know what you're talking about yeah we'll just say we don't know and go on that's the best way to do it he went on to say that the two men went to the park they drank they picked up some girls and fooled around

with them he said the girls weren't willing to have sex with them so they dropped them off and they went home. It kind of makes you look like a cad, but, you know, hey, once we found out these girls didn't want to have sex with us, we didn't want to have anything to do with them. But at that point, I don't think you're so much worried about that as you are coming up with a good alibi for why you couldn't have killed this person that you actually did kill. Right. The police searched Leopold's bedroom during the interrogation.

And they found a letter suggesting that he, he and Loeb were lovers. So I think right then and there, there was some suspicion on the part of investigators. I know the question was asked because it was reported on that if Leopold was gay, why would he spend his evening with women? So they called Loeb in for questioning. Loeb gave the same story, but they didn't believe him. So they decided to keep both of them in custody.

And then handwriting experts matched the handwriting on the ransom note envelope to Nathan Leopold. They also linked the ransom note to a typewriter that they know he had once had. We mentioned it, right? They got rid of the typewriter, but they did some investigation and they found out that he had owned that exact same typewriter. Yeah. This is pretty good. work when you think of the 1920s. You know, you've got handwriting analysis.

You've got some real investigation into, you know, where did this typewritten note come from? What typewriter did it belong to? It's pretty impressive. It's really impressive. That they were doing that type of stuff back then. But these were two kids from wealthy, influential families. So naturally Gibbs, the families are going to go to the police station. They're going to want to know what the hell is going on.

And they're going to bring attorneys with them. That's exactly what they did. The boys continued to maintain their alibi up until about 1 a.m. on May 1st, 1924. So they held out for a little bit. Well, I think they held out as long as they can because it was at 1 a.m. on the 31st that Svin England, Leopold chauffeur, came to the police station to speak to the police. Leopold's father sent this guy in with information that he believed would prove his son's innocence.

Because we mentioned it, right? The alibi was that they had spent the night driving around in Nathan's Willie's night car. But the Chicago Tribune reported that Sven England said that wasn't possible. He told the police that's not right. That Willie's night was in the Leopold garage all day from 1 o'clock in the afternoon until 10 o'clock at night. Okay. It's nice that you're wealthy enough to have a chauffeur.

But this chauffeur comes back to bite this kid in the ass. Sure does, man. because the more people you employ, the more people that are on your property, I guess the more people that can blow up your alibi. Now, his father obviously assumed that his son was innocent. There's no way he could have had anything to do with the murder of this 14 year old boy. He was wrong. He was really wrong, man. So police were about to release these two kids, guys, right?

They're 19, 20 years old. And that was until they found. found out that their entire alibi had been discredited, and it was when they were confronted with this evidence that they both confessed. Loeb requested a private conversation with the lead investigator, a guy named Crow. Leopold went to speak to a different prosecutor. The following are details from their confession, published by the Chicago Tribune in 1924. They said, we had planned since last fall. Sometime in November, I think, to kidnap some rich boy, kill him and get money from his father for ransom. We planned all the details weeks ahead and thought we had everything airtight against

discovery. We had several boys in mind. We didn't even know which one we would kidnap when we started out. The Franks boy just happened along and we got him. Okay. So you're laying everything. You're laying everything. thing out, it's also, you know, sounds very heartless, very matter of fact. Yeah. They said Leopold posed as Mr. Ballard and opened a bank account at Peoria Bank. Loeb posed as Mr. Mason and opened an account at Morris Bank. So obviously they're going into all the things that they did ahead of time to try to set this up. Loeb admitted to police that he gave Leopold.

$400 to establish some credit so that he could rent a car. He even posed as this Mr. Mason to give him a reference. Leopold rented a Willie's Knight, an exact copy of his personal car. He got it from the Rent-A-Car Company on Michigan Avenue. He rented the car on May 9th and returned it on May 21st. Then he took it out again at 11 a.m. and returned it at 5 p.m. And returned it at 5 PM on May 22nd. So my first thought Gibbs or first question was, why would he rent the exact same car that he already owned? And then I thought about it, right?

That was going to be their alibi. We were out driving in his car, this Willie's night. What they couldn't have predicted was that the chauffeur was going to blow it up by saying, hey, that car never left the garage. Right. Well, it didn't. It's because they were driving a rented car. And then my second thought was, okay, you're going to clean the rented car if police

actually do come after you. And then they check your car, your car is going to be clean because there was no crime committed in your car. It all happened in the rental car. Exactly. Yeah. So it did kind of make sense after I put those things. together. On May 9th, Leopold went to the rent-a-car company and told them that Mr. Mason was his

employer. The car company called a bakery and a delicatessen owned by Mrs. Gertrude Barish. Loeb answered the phone as Mr. Mason and said that Mr. Ballard was a good and trustworthy employee. So I guess to rent a car back in the day, you had to have somebody to vouch for you. That was it, huh? And so they had to put kind of that. that ruse in place. Things are a little different today. I don't even think you can you? As a 19, 20-year-old?

I don't think so. Don't you have to be either 21 or 25, I think? I think you're right. To rent a car. But then they went on to describe murdering Bobby Franks. They said, we planned to pour hydrochloric acid on his face so that his features would be unrecognizable.

We bought a chisel at a store on the grove near 43rd Street. and wrapped it in tape. We planned to hit him over the head and stuff a gag in his mouth. If we couldn't kill him that way, we were going to use ether. So that jumped out of me. I think basically they're saying at no point in their plan, did they believe that they were actually going to have a hostage? They planned on killing this boy.

Yeah, from day one. Now, they were still going to do the ransom, but after they had already murdered the individual. That didn't happen by accident. Right. That was planned from day one. Yeah, I absolutely think you're right.

They also said it was easier than we thought. He was weak. When he started to resist, we hit him on the head and stopped the gag into his mouth. We didn't need to use the ether. He must have been dead within five minutes after we started. While we were still going along, 50th Street. So I get it. They're caught. They're confessing. I can't help but think of just how cold

and heartless this must have been in the way that it came out. It seems heartless to me as I'm reading it. Oh, it sounds extremely heartless to do that to your, it's your cousin. But I imagine it probably wasn't much different as they were telling the story. Yeah, they've been planning this for months, right? I mean, yeah, it wasn't a spur of the moment thing. It wasn't like they they did something and then thought, oh my gosh, what did we just do? When you've been planning something for months, number one, it's kind of hard to say that it wasn't premeditated. But then I think the second thing is, you know, does it kind of take all emotion out of it? You've been talking about it. this is how we're going to do it.

At some point, does it just become kind of matter of fact, wrote? Oh, I think it does for them. Really, the only inconsistency in their stories was who hit Bobby with the chisel. But eventually they both agreed that it was Richard Lowe, who struck Bobby. When asked about the letter, they said, oh, we had that all written and sealed in a stamped envelope before we even started out. What we didn't know was who we were going to send it to. That's why we addressed it dear sir instead of dear Mr. Franks.

We put the address on after we ditched the body and dropped it in a box across from the sub-postal station in 55th Street. The planning, Gibbs, is what I keep going back to. They knew exactly what they wanted to do. Really the only variable in their whole equation was, was who the victim was going to be. Yeah. Everything else was kind of, you know, planned out ahead of time,

including having the, the letter already typed up and sealed in an envelope. Well, these were very smart guys. They were smart. They were calculating. They had, you know, high intelligence. But, you know, I think you and I have talked about it before. Being smart helps. but it's very hard to commit the perfect murder.

Is there such a thing as the perfect murder? You know, my true belief is that you have extremely smart killers who get caught. You have extremely dumb killers who get away with murders just because of the circumstances, not because of this massive amount of planning that they put into it. They just got lucky. They got lucky.

you know, the police couldn't put it together. I think that happens. They then described what they did with Bobby after the murder. They said, we drove with him around in the car for nearly four hours. Then we began undressing him in the car, took off everything but the underwear and stockings before we got to the culvert. We took his shoes off there. We missed one of his stockings in the dark, but we didn't discover that until we were burning the clothes in Dick's basement. But we weren't worried much about that anyway. They said they buried his shoes two miles south of Hammond. They burned a robe on the lakeshore at 73rd Street.

And they threw the typewriter into the lagoon near Yacht Harbor in Jackson Park. They scattered the keys of the typewriter. They threw the ribbon into the lagoon and then tossed the frame into the water as well. So again, in their plan, it wasn't good enough just to throw the whole typewriter in. We got to take off the keys and scatter them so that police can't, you know, duplicate. Duplicate the letter that we typed up. When asked why they did it, meaning the murder, they said, well, it was the kind of thing there would be a thrill in.

And we wanted some easy money. we made a few mistakes. I should have picked up my glasses. I didn't know I dropped them. We thought we had the whole thing airtight, but it wasn't. That's all. He's right.

Should have picked up your glasses. Yeah, nothing that they're saying is wrong. What jumps out at me is just again, how matter of fact it is. Hey, this is why we did it. We thought we'd get away with it. We made a few mistakes so well. It is what it is.

right it's cold it is cold but they're very cold killers but i i think gives just imagine reading this in the chicago tribune in 1924 you know a 19 year old a 20 year old they murder a 14 year old and here's why they did it you know we read some of this stuff today and we're like oh yeah that's horrible i don't know that these type of things shock us anymore there are some cases that still do sure and they're always will be there always will be but i think these types of things had to be extremely shocking in 1924 to your average citizen yeah and i'm sure the media sensationalized it during that time as well i i think to an unbelievable degree it's why it's such an infamous crime yeah the story on itself is horrible what

they did but there have been people that have committed many many more men murders, some in much more gruesome ways that never gained the type of infamy that Loeb and Leopold did. That's true, man. You're right. You know, this case got a lot of attention where we know other cases that should have had a lot of attention. Never got it.

Well, it doesn't hurt that it happened in Chicago. You have a huge paper in the Chicago Tribune that covered the whole thing. This episode is brought to you by the Jordan Harbinger show. You know, we're all looking for new podcasts to listen to. Well, this is one that's entertaining, informative, and packed with actionable content. We know that you listen to a lot of podcasts and you have a bunch in your rotation and that's cool. We want to share this podcast to add to your list. Jordan Harbinger is a fascinating person who has some unbelievable life experiences and some amazing guests.

So don't just ignore this suggestion. to listen to the podcast, like you probably do with some of your friends who tell you to listen to this or that, Jordan dives into the minds of fascinating people, from athletes, authors and scientists to mobsters, spies, and even hostage negotiators. You can't go wrong with adding the Jordan Harbinger show to your rotation. It's incredibly interesting. There's never a dull show. Search for the Jordan Harbinger show. That's H-A-R-B as in boy. I-N- as in Nancy G-E-R on Apple Podcast. Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts. So after the confession,

40 detectives Gibbs escorted them on a route to try to find some of this evidence. They found Bobby's shoes and a clump of bushes and other articles of clothing along the way. They also went to the bakery where Loeb answered the phone to impersonate Leopold's boss. And it was reported that Loeb fainted when the store owner confronted him.

So here's a guy who has no problem killing a 14-year-old boy, but when confronted by the store owner of a bakery, passes out. Can't handle it. No. They went to the hardware store where they purchased rope and the chisel. A drugstore clerk confirmed that they did indeed purchase hydrochloric acid. They then returned to Loeb's home to complete the search.

a jander reported that he saw them cleaning and washing a car on May 21st. He also said that what he saw was bloody water. The Chicago Tribune reported that the janitor asked them about it. And Loeb responded by saying, no, it isn't blood. He said, we've been out doing a little bootlegging. But we don't want folks to find out so don't say anything about it. Good old bootlegging. You got to do a little bootlegging.

the two spent that night at the Windermere Hotel under guard. So they're in big trouble, right? They've confessed to the murder. They've got these detectives guarding them. But it was also reported that Leopold's valet arrived that night with silk pajamas and a change of clothes. Still living that posh life. Waiters served them a turkey dinner. It's shocking, right?

That you would think that they would allow. this valet to come and bring him his niceties. Yeah, got to make sure you have your silk pajamas so you get a good night's sleep. On June 1st, they went back out to reenact the murder. Leopold and Loeb led the police to the typewriter used to commit the crime. Leopold told a newspaper reporter from the Chicago Tribune that they murdered Bobby for the thrill of it. He said, a thirst for knowledge is highly commendable.

No matter what extreme pain or injury, it may inflict upon others. A six-year-old boy is justified in pulling the wings from a fly. If by so doing, he learns that without wings, the fly is helpless. Wow, man. That is some heavy, heavy BS type stuff. It really is. But he probably believed this. I don't doubt that he did.

But why did he believe it? Why was he so warped? Why was his thinking so warped? You know, to think that it doesn't matter what you do. It doesn't matter who you hurt as long as you gain some knowledge in the process. Right. It's okay. It makes it okay because of that. Yeah.

Yeah. The state's attorney Crow boasted that he had, quote, the most complete case ever presented to a grand jury or pedigree in that he'd get. both men executed. So pretty confident to come out and say that. But he's going to go up against a pretty good defense attorney as well. Well, one of the most famous defense attorneys of all time, right? Leopold and Loeb's defense attorney was Clarence Darrow. Darrow is most famous for defending John Scopes for teaching evolution in Tennessee. I think a lot of people will remember that as being called the Scopes Monkey Trial. He was known as the attorney. He was known as the attorney.

the damned and considered a legal miracle worker. Darrow had personally defeated Crowe in the 1923 trial of Fred London charged with corruption. And it was reported that Crow felt as though he had a score to settle, right? He'd been bested by Darrow. Now was his opportunity. He was going to get back. He was going to defeat him. Darrow's goal was to avoid the death penalty because this was something to which,

he was personally opposed. According to PBS, Loeb's uncle begged Darrow. Get them a life sentence instead of death. We'll pay you anything. Only for God's sake, don't let them hang. There's the overall goal for both the attorney and the family, right? Just get them life. Don't let them get the death penalty.

Yeah, I mean, I think it's pretty clear. Based on the confession, the totality of the evidence, these two guys aren't getting off. Now it's all about, you know, can we get them life instead of death? You know, he said, don't let them hang. Yeah. You know, we've talked about cases before back during this timeframe. You're found guilty.

You're hanging in a pretty short amount of time. This wasn't a 15, 20, 25 year thing. No. Once condemned to die, you were going to die quickly. You're going to go out there and swing. Swing. Swing, yeah. Darrow had interest in two fields, dynamic psychiatry and endocrinology.

And he would use these two concepts in his defense. Two good concepts to use. Dynamic psychiatry emphasizes infantile sexuality and unconscious impulses and rejects the idea that human actions are freely chosen and driven by rationality. Individuals. act as a consequence of their childhood experiences. Individuals cannot be held responsible for their actions if they're predetermined by childhood events. So this is a fascinating subject, right? It's something that you and I talk about in many, many cases. You have serial killers who go

through these traumatic childhoods. Does that make them predispose? to go on to kill. He's using the word predetermined. Endocrinology was another big field at the time. Recent studies had found that in excess or deficiency of certain hormones produced certain mental and physical characteristics. Basically, mental illnesses were closely correlated with certain hormonal problems. So he's coming at this, Gibbs, from the perspective of science. or science at the time.

Sure. Darrow argued that the courts should listen to science. The men needed medical treatment, not punishment. So he entered a not guilty plea so that he would have five weeks to prepare a defense. Leopold and Loeb appeared in court on July 21st, 1924 before Judge John Caverly. You know, the trial lasted 33 days from July to August 1924. Darrow went with a very bold strategy. He changed his plea to guilty,

but he asked the court to mitigate the punishment because he said his clients were mentally ill. Yeah. And it was this plea that helped him avoid a jury trial. Yeah, you put it right in front of the judge. Now, Judge Cavalry, who would oversee the sentencing, was reported to have been a very liberal judge. So Darrow doesn't have to convince a jury. All he has to do is persuade the judge that the men were mentally ill and should not be executed.

And Gibbs, this case is almost a hundred years old. Isn't it striking that we are still talking about the very same subject today? Does you a lot. It does. Now, the science has evolved. It's progressed. but the same basic tenant still remain. Should a person who is deemed to be mentally ill be put to death?

And for the most part, for quite a long time, that answer has been no. The sentencing hearing began on July 23rd, 1924. Crow presented the state's evidence first. The prosecution hired four psychiatrists, including the president of the American Neurological Association, They all determined that neither young man was mentally deranged and had no mental or neurological defect. Not good for the defense.

No, it's not, but is it surprising? No. As the prosecution, are you going to call witnesses who are not going to be on your side? Absolutely not. If you do, you better find yourself a new job. Yeah. Crow presented all the evidence from the crime scene. he presented the confessions.

The defense began presenting their evidence on July 30th. William Allison White, president of the American Psychiatric Association, presented his testimony. He said, Leopold and Loeb experienced trauma at a young age from their governesses. Now, you know you're rich when you have a governess. Really rich when you have your governesses. Well, I think each one probably had it. had more. Yeah. But either way, they were both filthy rich. He also said they grew up in such strict environments that they had to learn to lie to avoid punishment. And this set them on a path

to becoming criminals. Okay, let's break that down for a minute. I would not say that my kids grew up in a quote, strict environment. There were rules. They didn't get spanked. You know, they got away with a lot of stuff. They still lied. Yeah. Kids lie. What they do. They learned to lie.

You know, you catch a kid with a bunch of chocolate on his face, asking him if he's been eating the chocolate chip cookies. And he says, no, I haven't been eating no chocolate chip cookies. Wasn't me. I mean, you do the same thing. Well, I did earlier. Yeah, I know. And it's pretty obvious when you've got Nugut hanging out of the corner of your mouth

that you did indeed eat my Snickers bar. I can't prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt, but the evidence is damning. It didn't look good. It doesn't look good. But it wasn't me. So, you know, I don't know that I agree with that, that that set them down a path to becoming criminals. I really don't know many young kids who didn't figure out at some point in their lives that it was better for them to lie, to try to get out of things, punishment or whatever. regardless of how strict an environment they grew up in.

Now, most of them grow out of it, hopefully sooner than later. White said that in Loeb's case, he considered himself the master criminal mind of the century. That's a pretty bold statement. Yeah, really bold. Now, the century was only 24 years old at that point, but still, he also imagined himself controlling a large band of criminals whom he directed. Even at times he thought of himself as being so sick is to be confined to bed,

but so brilliant and capable of mind that the underworld came to him and sought his advice and asked for his direction. In his mind, Gibbs, I think he thought he was Al Capone. I think he thought he was too. White also alleged that Leopold was sexually traumatized by his governess at a young age. And what are we talking about here, right?

A governess is a nanny. Yeah, that's what I believe it to be. I mean, maybe they have other duties or whatever, but it is just a rich person's word for nanny. A nanny. A up pair. You're going to go real fancy. Psychiatrist William Healy and Bernard Gluck confirmed that both boys engaged in

vivid fantasies. Now, that I definitely believe. You know, this is something that we have seen time and time again, right? Isn't this how it usually starts? Yeah. It's the fantasies. At a certain point, sometimes two people figure out that they share the same fantasies or similar fantasies.

And then it's the talking, the talking, the building, the building until they both make the decision that they want to cross over from the fantasy to reality. Right. And that's where the problem steps in. Yeah. Fantasies are one thing. Everybody has them. You have probably more than most. We don't talk about those.

I don't want to talk about them. I'm just assuming. Fantasies are harmless as long as you keep them to yourselves or you only share them with willing partners. And they don't hurt anyone else. Safety work. Pomegranate. Pomeranet. Smithsonian Magazine did a real.

good job of summarizing their testimony. Psychiatrist said that Leopold pictured himself as a strong and powerful slave, favored by his sovereign to settle disputes in single-handed combat. They said that each fantasy interlocked with the other. Loeb in translating his fantasy of being a criminal mastermind into reality, required an audience for his misdeeds and gladly recruited. Leopold as a willing participant. Leopold needed to play the role of the slave to a powerful sovereign and who other than

Loeb was available to serve as Leopold's king. So let's break this down. Loeb pictured himself as this omnipotent criminal mastermind. But what did he really done? Right? Some small time burglary. So to transcend from the fantasy to reality. you need somebody else with you, right, to see what you're doing, to view you the same way that you

view yourself. Right. As this criminal mastermind. And he was able to recruit Leopold into that role because Leopold wanted to be kind of subjugated or, you know, at the feet of a powerful person. That's what this psychiatrist is kind of saying. They definitely wanted to be subjectated. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And you just wanted to use that word, and I'm glad you did.

It's like every day. Are you saying you use that word every day? Every other day. Every other day. It comes up a lot in your normal discourse. Occasionally. Okay. Or every other day.

Yeah. The defense determined both men suffered trauma during childhood that damage their ability to function. And then as adults, they had what they called compensatory fantasies that led to murder. But as generally happens in most cases, the mental health professionals for the prosecution and the defense basically contradicted themselves, right? It happens all the time. The prosecution psychiatrists say one thing.

The defenses say pretty much the exact opposite. Now, it was said that the defense. that the defenses psychiatrists were primarily psychoanalyst. The prosecution hired neurologists. But here's the problem, right? Spectators and even newspaper reporters didn't fully understand the differences between them at the time because psychoanalysis was a relatively new field. So I think what came out of it was that people who listened to all this thought, well, if these two sides, can't agree with each other. Does any of it have value? Who do we believe? Well, no jury, right? Right. There's a judge, but these are spectators at the trial. People are interviewing them later and they're like,

well, who's telling the truth? Both attorneys presented closing arguments on August 22nd, 1924. Over 2,000 people. Gibbs waited outside the courthouse to get a seat. That's free entertainment, man. It's free entertainment. it's also the biggest story that's going on or, you know, has taken place in quite a while. You have the famous Clarence Darrow in the courthouse. He reiterated all his previous evidence in a closing argument that lasted a number of hours. And it was reported that he brought some in the courtroom to tears. He really was a very gifted defense attorney. You know, I think he was a very gifted orator. He was a very gifted orator. he was a hell of a speaker.

Yeah. Okay. I wasn't sure if you were picking up what I was putting down there. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I had. Oh, okay. You had this look on your face like, what is an orator? I've done orrating before.

I heard you have. The prosecutor Crow alleged in his closing argument that Leopolden lobe molested Bobby before or after his death. This caused some outrage in the courtroom. And it was reported Gibbs that the judge actually ordered all the female reporters to leave the room. In the 1920s, this kind of talk was not suitable for was deemed to not be suitable for female ears, even though they were reporters, just like their male counterparts, but they were too sensitive, right? They can't hear this type of stuff.

We've got to get them out of the courtroom. Judge Kaverly took 12 days to make his decision, Which is huge, I think, you know, knowing what evidence was laid out there. I think 12 days is a really long time. It is. You could look at it a couple of different ways. Either he really wanted to take his time and weigh everything very carefully or he had a golf vacation stuck in the middle there somewhere. I don't know. My assumption is because this case was so big in the media spotlight.

nationally, he probably wanted to take his time, cross every T, dot every I, really try to make the right decision. The sentencing took place on September 10th, 1924. WGN broadcast the last hearing. Well, that meant the entire city was listening. Yeah, and probably even more, because I think WGN back then was huge. Sure. And I don't believe they had those restrictions. restrictions limiting how powerful a radio station could be. And you know, if you remember when we were kids, the big station here in Cincinnati,

you could actually pick up all the way in Florida. Yeah, you could. That's true. You know, if there was a Reds game going on, we would listen to it on vacation. I remember picking it up in Florida.

And then eventually they had to put a limit. Yeah, put restrictions in. Yeah, on how powerful that. a radio station could be. But it was said that the entire city turned on their radios to listen. The judge announced that he gave no weight to the guilty plea.

He also wouldn't consider the psychiatric evidence. And I thought both of those Gibbs were interesting. Okay, you're not going to consider any of the psychiatric evidence, but you're also not going to consider the fact that they pled guilty. He said the defendants have been shown in essential respect. to be abnormal. The careful analysis made of the life history of the defendants and of their present mental, emotional, and ethical condition has been of extreme interest.

And yet the court feels strongly that similar analysis made of other persons accused of crime would probably reveal similar or different abnormalities. For this reason, the court has satisfied that his judgment, in the present case, cannot be affected thereby. He did accept one mitigating factor, and that was their age. In the end, he sentenced each man to 99 years for kidnapping and murder. Well, the defense got what he wanted. Yeah, no death penalty.

But, you know, I do want to go back to what the judge said. And people may agree with it. They may not agree with it. In a nutshell, he's saying that the court feels as though. So if you did this same kind of analysis on other individuals accused of similar crimes, you'd find the same stuff in their background or what he called abnormalities. He also said the court believes that it is within his province to decline to impose the dissons on persons who are not of full age.

This determination appears to be in accordance with the progress. of criminal law all over the world and with the dictates of enlightened humanity. That part I did not understand. They were not a full age. He didn't explain what full age was. Yeah, I just didn't get it. You would think 18, 19 years old is full age, but obviously they didn't consider it to be. I just couldn't find anything about what that meant.

I found it interesting. Leopold and Loeb shook their attorney's hands before they went back to their selves. Darrow later told the press, well, it's just what we asked for, but it's pretty tough. It's more of a punishment than death would have been. Oh, it's true. It's true. I mean, the punishment is going to be 99 years versus going out and being hung. Well, I don't know. I think whether you're hung or not doesn't really have any thing to do with what's going on. But I will say, I think it's a strange statement for Dero to make. You know, I almost have to disagree with you because it's more of a punishment than death would have been.

So he's saying life in prison is a worse punishment than death. But that was his whole fight was to get them out from underneath the death penalty. That's what the family wanted. Right. He did what the family asked. But now he's saying what they got was worse. than death. So I don't know. I couldn't quite square that. I'm thinking if I had to choose between life in prison or death, I think I would choose death back then. Well, some people might choose it now.

But to me, that's not the point. You know, I think death is viewed as the ultimate punishment. There are a lot of criminals that say, hey, I want to die. I don't want to spend the rest of my life in prison because they do view it as as more of a punishment than even dying. I don't know. The whole thing was just strange to me. Maybe Gibbs, he thought, okay, not only are we going to get them out from under the death penalty, but they're not going to spend that much time, right? He was surprised that their sentences were so lengthy. Crow made two statements. He first said, the state's attorney's duty was fully performed. He is in no measure responsible. He is in no measure responsible for the decision of the court.

The responsibility for that decision rests with the judge alone. And then later that evening, he issued another statement. He said, Leopold and Loeb had the reputation of being immoral degenerates of the worst type. The evidence shows that both defendants are atheists and followers of the Nietzschean doctrines, that they are both above the law, both the law of God and the law. law of man. It's unfortunate for the welfare of the community that they were not sentenced to death. Well, say how it is, man. Well, how you believe it to be. But again, okay, they're not sentenced to death, but can they hurt anybody? Well, I mean, what they do in prisons, what they do in prison,

but I understand. On the outside. Yeah. Could they hurt anybody on the outside? Now, do they have a chance to get out? That's a different subject. Both Leopold and Loeb were incarcerated at the state ville prison. They served their sentence for over 10 years without really much incident, although Leopold did have several disciplinary infractions. But on January 28, 1936, James Day, a prison inmate, slashed Loeb with a razor in the shower and murdered him. James Day was serving time in prison for grand larceny. The way that it was reported Gibbs was that the men entered the shower, around 1 p.m. And then 20 minutes later,

Loeb came staggering out. He was naked with blood running down his body. A few seconds later, Day entered the corridor and presented a razor to the guard. Day said that he killed Loeb and self-defense, arguing that Loeb made sadistic homosexual advances towards him. That's a tough self-defense argument. It is.

the guy made homosexual advances towards me and I had to kill him. What he felt he needed to do. I get it. That doesn't make it right. Now, let's face it, right? Those types of things were viewed much differently a hundred years ago than they are today. But Day had more to say, right?

He claimed that Loeb told him he wanted to settle their difficulties. Apparently they'd had some conflicts before. So Day agreed. Loeb requested that they meet in his private bathroom after lunch. He had a private bathroom? Man, you don't even have that for me here. I don't. Why would I?

So apparently, according today, they went into the bathroom and undressed to shower because that's the best time to work out all your difficulties when you're naked in a communal shower. Yeah. That's usually where I hash out all my stuff. Yeah, get in the shower naked with whoever you have a problem. with and things will usually solve themselves. He said Loeb then threatened him with the razor and said, if he didn't do what he wanted, he'd kill him.

So this is where the homosexual advances turn into, if you don't do what I want, I'll kill you. Day said he kicked him, stole the razor, and cut him. And the razor was reported missing from the barbershop that day. But it was also reported that Loeb suffered. that lobe suffered 56 wounds. Extensive. Yeah. His jugular vein had been nicked.

His windpipe was punctured. Prison doctors tried to save him, but he died at 305 p.m. He was only 30 years old, Gibbs. I mean, if you think about it, he was convicted and sent to prison

at a very young age. Yeah. But he still had a long way to go in that jail sentence. You mean before he died? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So he was in there, what, years, he would have done probably many, many more years. The prison was quick to point out that Leopold and Loeb did not receive any special treatment in prison and did not have a private suite. I think that is one thing that the prison wants to get out ahead of very quickly. The suite was said to have been for the correspondence school that they had established in prison. The suite did have a shower because it was previously the guards break room.

and the warden said he had no idea that Loeb had a key to the suite. So essentially he did have a private bathroom. It wasn't meant for him, but he had it. But he had commandeered it. On February 20th, 1958, Nathan Leopold was released on parole after serving 33 years in prison. So he got 99. He served 33. The state parole board determined he was fully rehabilitated.

Leopold told the Chicago Tribune, I am acutely conscious that more than my own future hangs in the balance, thousands of prisoners, especially long-term prisoners, look to me to vindicate the rehabilitation theory of imprisonment. I will do my best not to fail in that trust. So that's kind of interesting from the standpoint of this is a guy who seemed to have no remorse about his role in the killing of a 14 year old kid.

Right. But now he's saying, yay, all these prisoners are looking at me. And so it really does, you know, bring up the question. Was he, in fact, rehabilitated? 33 years is a long time. It's a very long time. You know, people grow up. He was then, what, 51, 52 years old?

Yeah. big difference between an 18 year old and and you know a 51 52 year old i mean the maturity level alone even being in prison your maturity level's going to be so much better yeah i just don't know what type of rehabilitation they had in you know the 20s 30s and 40s i'm actually shocked that they had a correspondent school back then? That part even kind of blew me away. According to the Smithsonian magazine at his hearing, he was asked if he realized that every media outlet would want to interview him. Leopold answered, I don't want any part of lecturing, television, or radio, or trading on the notoriety. All I want, if I am so lucky, as to ever see freedom again, is to try to become a humble little

person. Smart answer. Well, it's a smart answer. Again, you always have to ask the question, is it real? Did this guy really change during those 33 years? Or is he just saying the right things, the things that he knows he has to say in order to get out? Yeah. Only he knows that. He only he knows that deep down. And it will only be fully known once he gets. And he out and if he never does anything like that again. And that actually seems to be what happened. Gibbs. Leopold moved to Puerto Rico. He earned a degree in social work at the University of Puerto Rico. He worked as a hospital technician in San Juan. He also wrote a book titled Life Plus 99 years. In 1961, he married Trudy Garcia de Cuvedo.

the widow of a Baltimore physician. He died of a heart attack on August 29th, 1971 in San Juan, Puerto Rico at the age of 66. So I think, again, there's no way to know until you see what a person does with the rest of their life. It sounds to me, unless there was something behind the scenes that nobody knew about that he probably was rehabilitated. And he did take advantage and make the most of his life after prison. Now, people could argue that 33 years wasn't enough time. You can make all those types of arguments. You could also argue that the parole board was correct in their determination.

They didn't make a mistake. Right. They got it right. His wife told the Chicago Tribune. His whole life was spent atoning for one mistake. And now the Leopold story is finished. He was one of the most gentle people I've met in my life. So Gibbs, as we wrap up this case, the murder of Bobby Franks.

And that's a name that often gets overlooked in this case, right? Leopold and Loeb, Loeb and Leopold. You hear those names because they're infamous. The name you don't hear a lot is Bobby Franks. Yeah. But this was one of the most shocking murder cases in Chicago's history for a number of reasons. I think number one, you look at the prestige of the perpetrators and their families, right? Their wealth, their intelligence, and really their motive for the murder.

The case was also important for cultural reasons. It's the 1920s, the roaring 20s were in full swing. That alone brought a lot of changes to American society. Men and women experienced new freedoms. men drank, gambled and partied like never before in public. Women cut their hair, wore short dresses, and they drank and smoked with men. Big changes for sure. Big changes from what had been going on previously.

It was said that traditional ideals were replaced by what was called a culture of self-indulgence. Evangelists and conservative Americans believe that this murder represents. a culmination of all of these cultural changes. So I think many of them used it and to rail against the drinking, the carousing, right, used it on Sunday during their, their sermons. This is what's going to happen. This is what our society is leading us towards. But there's no doubt that Leopold and Loeb had everything, right?

they lived a life that the majority of Americans could only dream of. It had everything they could have wanted. Yeah, everything at their disposal. Besides the money, right? They were very intelligent. They could have done anything with their lives probably that they wanted to do. And they threw it all the way. For some thirst of knowledge.

And seeking thrills. I mean, basically that's what they said, right? You know, they also said they considered themselves to be Superman. They live by their own moral code. But there's no doubt that they learned. They were not above the law. And their thrill-seeking days kind of ended pretty quickly. It's just sad that a 14-year-old lost his life for what two guys called thrill-seeking.

Yeah. No other reason, but thrill-seeking. That's it. A parachute off of a building. Yeah. Jump the Grand Canyon in a rocket. Do whatever the hell you want to yourself. Yeah, try killing each other instead.

Just don't take innocent lives. But then, you know, these two guys, what would they have gone on to do? What would Bobby Franks have gone on to do? His family was very wealthy. Yeah. I'm sure he could have done just about anything he wanted. He never even got the chance to get started. No, he did not.

But I knew this was a case that, you know, I always wanted. to do because it's so famous, right? You hear those two names and you know what it is. I mean, it's a very infamous case. But that's it for our case on Leopold and Lowe. We got some voicemails. You want to check those out? Yeah, let's check them out.

Hello, gentlemen. My name is J.O. Gazelle. I listen religiously to your podcast and found it. the chicks at Morbid actually gave you guys a hat tip. And I would love if you guys, I'm from Cincinnati originally. I'm a homeless person, but I listen to your podcast.

And I would love if you guys would cover the Pike Townie murders, the Rodin family. I think it's fascinating. Anyway, I donate, but as I said, I'm homeless, so I've got no cash. but keep up the good work, man. You guys like keep me clumps and gives me something to listen to at night. So have a great day.

Good night now. Yeah, yeah. Thanks for calling in. We actually did cover that case, but we covered it on unsolved years ago before it was solved. The interesting part about that case is we did talk about, you know, the individuals that ended up pleading guilty. the most viable suspects.

So I think because of that gives, we never went back and really did anything about it on TCAT. Right. Because the unsolved episode kind of stands on its own, just without the conclusion that those people actually face, some of those people actually face justice. Right. Later on, obviously many years after we did the episode.

Hi there. This is Sandra from Thinkasson, Ontario, Canada. I discovered you at the beginning of December, and I've been listening steadily, and I've just hit the beginning of 2020 long in the episode where you say, it's going to be a great year, and I'm still laughing about hearing that. I really enjoy your podcast at the beginning. I didn't think I was going to. I'm thinking, wow, these guys are boring, but people kept telling me, keep listening. It gets better, and they were right, it did, and I'm glad I kept listening. Yeah, I just, sorry, just that comment about 2020 just killed me.

So I just had to share that. And I will continue listening and hopefully catch up to you very shortly. Have a great day and keep your own time taking. Bye. Yeah, awesome. A lot of people have talked about that 2020 thing. Now, as you keep listening, you might hear me say at some point, 2022 is going to be a great year.

Yeah. Well, it's been a little rough. A little bit. if I did say that, obviously I wasn't predicting this horrible war in Ukraine and everything that's going on. So it just goes to show you, you never know what is going to happen. Hey, Mike and Gibby, this is Nikki from Jacksonville, Florida. I actually recently just started a job where I'm doing a lot of traveling, of course, perfect timing considering the gas prices.

but I've been catching up on a lot of the episodes that I've been behind on because of all the driving and just want to say I really appreciate you guys and meet an old co-worker named Cassie. I got her to listen to you guys too. We kind of bonded over that one of our crappy jobs. But anyways, we love you guys and I can't wait to get a true crime all-time hoodie and keep your own time ticket. Gibbs, there's nothing like bonding over a crappy job. Oh, man.

Many, many of people have done it. Yes, we have. I think maybe you and I have done it at some point. I'm saying, yes, we have. So we appreciate the voicemail. We had some mailbag Gibbs. Gillian Smith sent us some beef jerky from Western Mass. She also sent you a miniature wooden desk and a slotted chair.

I appreciate that. Because you're always talking about your crappy chair and the fact that I won't give you desk. So now you have both. Desk and a chair. Casey Sim sent us some beef jerky as well. Some Chicago style popcorn and about 8,000 pounds of Twizzler. It's a lot of Twizzlers, man. So I think you're set for Twizzlers for some time.

I'm good. Although you do go through them pretty quickly. I do. So we appreciate everybody who send something in. All right, buddy, that's it for another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike, stay safe and keep your own time ticking. Thank you.