True Crime All The Time - Lionel Tate

Episode Date: August 22, 2022

Lionel Tate was 12 years old when he was charged with the murder of his six-year-old neighbor Tiffany Eunick. At the age of 14, he was sentenced to life in prison without parole for first-degree murder. Lionel said that Tiffany was hurt as they were playing. But, experts testified that her injuries were consistent with someone who had fallen three stories.Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the bizarre story of Lionel Tate. Lionel Tate is believed to be one of the youngest Americans, if not the youngest, to be sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. It later came out that Lionel's mother and his defense attorney were instrumental in him declining a plea agreement where he would have served only three years in a juvenile facility. This case reignited the debate on how the criminal justice system should try and sentence juveniles charged with serious crimes. You can support the show and find extra content at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

everyone and welcome to episode 297 of the true crime all the time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you? Hey man, I'm doing well about yourself. I've had a rough week. Yeah, you have. Most of which I outlined on our weekly Patreon video. Um, so I'm not going to go into it here. But if you want to check it out, it's on, it's out on Patreon. There's injury. There's, uh, mystery, intrigue, drama. Things you do in your bedroom. None of that. Well, actually, it did happen in the bedroom.

You're right. You're right. It just didn't have anything to do with the innuendo that you were putting along with. I didn't put anything in your window. Yes, you did. Yes, you did. All right, let's go ahead and give our Patreon shoutouts. We had Aletta cop.

What's going on, Aleta? Jackie Fagege. Hey, Jackie. Crystal. Appreciate that, Crystal. Kimberly Federico. What's going on? Federico.

Renee Tucker. Appreciate that, Renee. Shelby Wiser jumped out. to our highest level. Hey, hi, Shelby. Cristobal Hernandez. Well, thank you, Hernandez. Martha Page. Well, hi, Martha. Kyle Blasberg. Blass it out, Blasberg.

Sarah Racine jumped out higher than our highest level. Man, that's awesome, Sarah. Thank you. Ashley Cruz. Hey, Cruz. Gens Bartay. Oh, Botte. Angela. Nikki Woller. What's going on, Nikki? Rachel Hiena.

Hey, I appreciate that. Hyena. Allison Adams. Hey, AA. Heather Galman. What's up, Galem. Angela Jaggers Claiborne. There's a name Jagers Claybourne. Yeah.

Louise Bratherton. Hey, Louise. Ila Gogol. What's going on? Google, close to Google. Yeah, very close. Lisa Hobson. Hey, Lisa.

Sandy Blaisley. What's going on? Blazley. And last but not least, Michael Bukert. Hey, there's a good name, Michael. And then if we go back into the vault. This week, we selected Christine Vang. Hey, thanks, Christine.

So we appreciate all the support. get and then we had a really big PayPal donation from Cheryl Bullock. And that's amazing. Thank you. Yeah. Can't thank everybody enough. It really means a lot. Gibbs right now we have a brand new episode out on true crime all the time unsolved where we're talking about the death of Joshua Maddo. Yeah, we're headed to Colorado and we're going to look into this kind of bizarre case. where a young man goes missing and is found years later tucked inside of a chimney. So just based on that alone, you know there's going to be a lot of mystery and could this person have done it, could that person have done it? So we'll get into all of that. Check it out.

All right, buddy, are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time? And I am ready for this one. We're talking about Lionel Tate. And Lionel Tate was only 12 years old when he was charged with murder. Don't hear that very often. A 12 year old. Yeah. At the age of 14, he was sentenced to life in prison without parole for first degree murder. That says a lie.

Tate is believed to be one of the youngest Americans, if not the youngest, to be sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. And I saw in a lot of places where he was the youngest, it's tough for me to be so absolute, because somebody's going to come back and say, well, what about this person in 1913? Right. That nobody knows about. So, you know, I had that caveat in there. But what this case did was, you know, reignited the debate on how the criminal justice system should try and sentence juveniles charged with very serious crimes.

Now, a lot of people are probably thinking right now, well, we're going back 40 years. 50 years, 60 years. Right. No. We're only going back a little over 20 years. Yeah, no, not too far back at all. No, this is not a very, very old case. Lionel Tate was born on January 30th, 1987 in Florida. Couldn't find much at all about his early life, but he lived with his mother, Kathleen, Grosette, Tate in Fort Lauderdale, Florida. And it's probably not strange that I couldn't find that much about his early life. He was only 12 years old. Not much of a history yet. No. Hadn't done much in his life, really. I mean, unlike myself, you had a PhD by 12. I was headed off to med school, man. That was unbelievable. His mom, Kathleen, is an army veteran who worked as a Florida Highway Patrol officer. Lionel is her

only child. Kathleen served as a staff specialist in the army. And Lionel lived with family members while his mother was deployed in the Middle East during the Gulf War. He had been living with her less than a month before he killed his neighbor's daughter. So we know what we're getting into. We just don't know all of the particulars and that's what will unfold as we go through this episode. Deweese Unique Paul met Lionel and Kathleen after she and her daughter, Tiffany, moved to Fort Lauderdale.

She and Kathleen were both divorced mothers. So, you know, they became friends. They helped each other out with their kids. She later told a number of media outlets that she really never noticed anything strange about Lionel. Didn't exhibit any odd behaviors. Yeah. I mean, that's what I'm taking from what she said. Now, at the age of 12, Lionel was already six feet tall and he weighed more than 150 pounds.

That's a tall boy. Tall for a 12 year old, no doubt. And it was said that, you know, he wasn't an argumentative or violent kid. He normally played very well with his neighbor's daughter, Tiffany, despite their age difference. So he was 12, she was six. But they got along well. It's part of what makes this story so strange.

Yeah. On July 28th, 1999, 12-year-old Lionel, Tate killed six-year-old Tiffany eunuch. Lionel's mother was babysitting Tiffany that night. She was scheduled for an overnight shift. She made the kids dinner and she went upstairs to take a nap before work. While she was sleeping, Lionel was in the living room with Tiffany. And I'm sure a lot of people listening either currently or have at one point in their lives

worked the overnight shift. Right. it is by far my least favorite shift it can be taxing on people now i think if you worked it all the time you might grow into that kind of routine i never did i had a job that was kind of a rotating shift thing which i think is the worst of all you know x amount of weeks on first x amount of weeks on second and then, you know, so many weeks on third, it was like every time you got used to one, or by the time you got used to one, you were moving on to the next one. And my sleep was so jacked up.

Yeah. I never could get used to it. That's not good. Did you ever work third shift? It was a vampire. Yes. Okay. All right.

Good answer. Good answer. So I mentioned it, right? She's sleeping, which she has to do because she's got to get up and go to work. Sure. But while that was going on. on. Lionel was in the living room with Tiffany. And according to ABC, Kathleen heard a noise downstairs. She later said, I came and opened the door upstairs. I didn't go all the way downstairs.

I opened the door and I said, what was that noise? It's probably more like, what was that noise? That's how I would have done it. Oh, okay. I'd have been like, what was that noise? Well, not everybody is as uber aggressive as you are trying to sleep here now i am a little funky with my sleep i do not do well with being woken up yeah prior to that alarm going off but lionel responded to his mother by saying that was tiff kathleen later said she heard moaning but not crying or screaming so she went back into her room and she laid back down sometime after after this, Lionel knocked on her door and said that Tiffany wasn't breathing. So Kathleen ran downstairs. She started performing CPR and she called 911. That's a tough situation.

Sure. You know, you're charged with watching your neighbor's kid or you've taken on that responsibility. And all right, you got your own stuff going on, but you're still responsible. You think the kids are playing well with each other. And then all of a sudden your child says Tiffany's not breathing. Right. So, you know, when I say she ran downstairs, I'm assuming it was a, a full blown sprint or as as much as you can do to get down a flight of stairs. Right. Your heart speeding, you know, out of your chest, you got to be pretty scared. But it sounds like she did all the right things, right? she started CPR, she called 911. ABC reported that Kathleen has said that one of her biggest regrets is not going downstairs

when she first heard the noise. She said, you just don't know. You know how when things happen. People say, if only. I think that's what she was saying, right? If only I had gone downstairs.

I agree. If only, you know, your babysitting a child probably should have checked it out. Right. Yeah, I would agree with that probably. And you heard it from her. It's it's her biggest regret. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure it weighs on her all the time. What if I would have went down the steps completely the first time and checked on the situation? But this is something that you and I talk about quite a bit because it surfaces in a number of episodes. And it's basically at what point do you think something is wrong? Right. You know, whether it's you hear this sad. outside of your home. Is it a car backfiring?

Is it a gunshot? You don't know. Is it someone screaming? Is it a cat, you know, in the middle of the night? Right. I mean, I think there are a lot of loud bangs. Right.

I hear loud bangs all the time that wake me up. Yeah. Do I or should I get up, you know, grab a flashlight and go downstairs and check everything out all the time? Or was it just somebody,

shutting their car door much more forcefully than they really needed to. There's a lot of gray area to some of these things. But I'm not discounting what you're saying at all because she's basically saying the same thing you are. After 11 p.m. Deweese Unich Paul received a phone call from Kathleen. Kathleen asked her if Tiffany had asthma because she was not breathing. Dewees later said that she dropped her phone.

And she started screaming. My baby is gone. And sadly, she was right. Tiffany was pronounced dead shortly after she arrived at the hospital. Two days later, the autopsy report was sent to the Broward County Sheriff's Office. And Lionel became a suspect. Tiffany had 35 injuries, a ruptured spleen, lacerations to her ribs, damage to the rib, damage to the rib cage, a skull fracture, brain contusions, a partially detached liver,

and a bunch of bruises. Basically, it was said that her liver was shredded to the point where it was pushed through her rib cage. Tiffany died from the detached liver and skull fracture. I mean, when you think of a six-year-old, think how tiny a six-year-old is, you know? Well, and it's why we went through the effort of really saying, you know, Lionel was 12 years old, but he was six foot, 150 pounds. Yeah, he was the size of a man. Yeah. He's actually taller than a lot of men.

Yeah. But when you think about these injuries and you relate it to a six-year-old, it's really hard to take regardless of that. But when you think of a six-year-old, how devastating. Well, it hits you. Yes. In a certain way. As these cases do, right, anytime we're talking about the death of a small child, those are very tough cases to cover.

And especially when, you know, you have to go into what this little girl's injuries really were, but you have to do it because it's going to come up later in the case. It's going to be a big part of it. But I mentioned it. Lionel was a suspect pretty much from the beginning. the case was transferred to the Broward State Attorney's Office, and they decided to charge him with first-degree murder. So they weren't messing around.

I mean, his first-degree murder right off the bat. Lionel and his defense attorneys argued that he accidentally killed Tiffany while they were playing together and the death was not intentional. Basically, what they said was that Lionel had lifted Tiffany into the air and dropped her onto a table in the living room. All right, so doing some wrestling TV moves maybe. If you go back to the first time that Kathleen heard some noises and yelled outside of her bedroom door,

I know I said she should have went downstairs to check on the situation, but she probably never thought her son would body slam a six-year-old onto a table, let alone anything else that happened. to cause those type of injuries. Yeah, you know, one of the things that's pretty universal in these cases that involve violent acts by children is that to your point, parents don't go there. Parents' minds don't go to that place of thinking early on, oh, my child may have done this

or that or is capable even of doing, you know, some of these really bad things. But we talked about the severity of Tiffany's injuries. And that was what really led prosecutor Kenneth Padowitz to consider trying Lionel as an adult. According to ABC, he later said, my belief was that the juvenile system in Florida at the time would give Lionel Tate an average job six to nine months in a juvenile detention facility. in my determination, after many sleepless nights thinking about this, it was not an appropriate sentence. And we mentioned right up front, you know, this case sparked quite a bit of debate. You know, how should cases like this be handled when you have a juvenile? We're not talking about a 17 year old juvenile.

We're talking about a 12 year old. Right. How should these types of cases be handled? And this prosecutor is essentially saying, based on the severity of the wounds, six to eight months in a juvenile detention center just didn't seem right to me. Yeah. For the severity of what happened. Yeah. But at some point Gibbs, the prosecution offered up a plea deal that Lionel's attorneys and his mother refused.

The plea deal would have given him a three-year sentence in a juvenile facility for second-degree murder, followed by 10 years probation. And Kathleen later said she rejected the plea bargain because she was sure Lionel would be acquitted at trial. You know, it's really rough to play Monday morning quarterback after all this, but the prosecution really proposed a favorable deal. Three years in a juvenile facility and then 10 years probation. But that's the rub, right? In many cases, you have a defendant. And in this case, Lionel Tate's not even old enough to make the decision for himself. His mother's involved.

His attorneys are involved. I would think his mother would have the final say. But in, you know, a lot of these cases, okay, here's your plea deal. You're going to do some time. Right. and it's always versus going to trial and either being acquitted or most likely getting a sentence that is vastly longer, right? That's always kind of the decision that it comes down to.

But I go back to what Kathleen said, which was that she was sure Lionel would be acquitted. And I think so many defendants are. They think, no way is a jury going to convict me of whatever it is. So why would I take the plea deal, which guarantees that I'm going to spend X amount of time in prison or in this case a juvenile facility? So they take their chances and many times they end up with a sentence that's what? 10 times as long or, you know, whatever it is. It's a real role of the dice in many. cases. Yeah, and you've got to remember that this 12-year-old boy doesn't look like a 12-year-old boy.

You know, he's six-foot tall, 150 pounds going into a trial. Some might perceive him more as a man, and that could play into their decision. Yeah, even if they don't see him as a man, they're going to see the difference in sizes between little Tiffany and 12-year-old, but very big for his age, Lionel tape. So they're going to move forward and a grand jury decided to try Lionel as an adult. So that's got to be rough right there. You've passed up on the plea bargain and now you find out, okay, they're going for the jugular. They're going to try him as an adult. If Lionel had been 16 years old, he could have faced a death penalty. Yeah. The prosecution invoked a specific law that meant the jury didn't have to decide if Lionel meant to kill Tiffany only if his actions were

intentional and abusive. And Lionel's attorney argued that this law shouldn't be applied to the case. And I found this to be, you know, very interesting that they're trying to introduce this because, you know, when you're talking about first degree murder, I kind of always thought, okay, we need some intent there, right it's kind of a big part of the first degree murder but i guess intentional and intent kind of go together sure so even if you didn't mean to kill somebody you did something intentional that caused their death okay now i get it i was looking at it wrong or incorrectly now word from our sponsor better help listen folks we take care of our bodies in a lot of ways we right we go to the gym we brush her teeth, we do all the things we're supposed to do.

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meaning you can start reclaiming your time for under $5 a month. Sign up today at clickup.com and use code T-Cat, T-C-C-A-T-T-T-T. Hurry, this offer end soon. Lionel's defense was led by attorney James Lewis and the prosecution argued that Lionel intentionally killed Tiffany. Kenneth Paddowitz stated that Tiffany's injuries were similar to her falling roughly about three stories. The prosecution also presented the theory that Lionel had a crush on Tiffany's mother and wanted to get rid of Tiffany. You know, you think of a 12-year-old's mind, you know, having a crush on Tiffany's mom to the point that is he capable of really thinking that he's going to be able to have a

relationship with this woman. Right. If the woman's daughter is out of the way. Right. Exactly. I don't know a lot of 12 year olds, to be honest with you. My kids haven't been 12 for a very long time. It doesn't seem like something a 12 year old would really think about or come to the conclusion of, I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong about that. And what would he even think Deweis would be interested in that? Well, now you're trying to get into the mind of a 12 year old and that might be a little tough to do. But I want to go back to this, you know, injuries are consistent with a three story fall. And we detailed them out. They were pretty horrific. And I think this kind of further illustrates it. So going back to the, you know, I picked her up and dropped her on a table. Well, three stories is a

pretty far cry from that. Well, speaking of Deweese, she testified that when she told Lionel, Tiffany was dead. he shrugged and rolled his eyes. The next day, she said he asked if he could live with her and have Tiffany's toys. Now, those are bizarre behaviors. Yeah, very bizarre. I mean, she's painting a picture of Lionel is a person who has no empathy whatsoever or doesn't even understand the gravity of the situation. Now, the defense argued that Tiffany's death was an accident that occurred.

When, like you said, or you speculated, he was imitating pro wrestling moves that he had seen on TV. Tiffany was very small. She weighed less than 50 pounds. We mentioned it. Lionel was large for his age. He weighed over 150 pounds. So the defense really used this size difference to emphasize their argument that Tiffany's death was accidental. Yeah.

You know, the boy was three times her way. probably the defense was trying to say he didn't know his own strength. Yeah, I was thinking that too. Because they got to put up an argument. Sure. And so you got to figure out what strategy you think will work the best, and you got to stick with that. The problem was that none of the experts at trial,

even one defense expert believed Tiffany's injuries came from play fighting. Well, that's a rough go. When you can't even get your defense expert, to say, oh, these could have resulted from playfighter. Right. And I kind of like to hear that because, you know, a lot of times I think, I don't know if I'm right or not, but I get this sense that, you know, when you're a defense expert, obviously they want you to say certain things.

But if you're an expert, to me, your, your goal is to tell the truth. And so, you know, every now and then, it's nice to hear that somebody just, doesn't go along with what they know the defense wants them to say they're actually saying you know what i can't agree with that either yeah lionel never testified at trial but the defense played a video of him reenacting what happened the prosecutor said that he offered the plea deal towards the end of the trial because he didn't want lionel to spend his whole life in prison So we mentioned it. The offer was three years in a juvenile facility, one year of house arrest and 10 years of probation

with psychological counseling and therapy. So I don't know if this deal was offered twice because originally I thought the deal was offered up front prior to trial and they refused. And maybe it was. But it was definitely offered, you know, towards the end of the trial. it sounds to me as though this prosecutor saw what was about ready to happen and was kind of throwing out a little bit of a lifeline because he didn't want to see this very young kid waste his entire life away in prison.

Well, you would hope that his defense attorney and his mom would see that as well. They're at the trial. They see how things are coming down. Or do they? See, sometimes I think we assume that everybody who, you know, sits through an entire trial sees it the same way. You know, maybe as a mother or a parent, a mother in this situation, it's tougher to see what is really happening. Because in the back of your mind, you just think there's no way that my son, you know, would have done this willingly. A jury's going to have to see it my way.

But when you look at what the prosecution has charged you with, and if you don't take the plea deal and you're found guilty, when you weigh that against the plea, I just find it really hard to understand why you just wouldn't accept that plea. Well, and it's one thing if you're an adult on trial, okay, that's your choice. You make the decision. Do you want to take that plea or do you want to take your chances? at trial or with whatever a jury comes back with. But now you've got a 12 year old who legally, I don't think can make that determination for himself. And so, you know,

is his mother a little bit clouded? Like I said, just believing in her heart, the jury has to see it like I do. Right. Because this is my son. I know him. There's no way he,

he would have done it the way that they're saying it happened. But as we know, his mother and the defense team refused the deal. So on January 25th, 2001, 13-year-old Lionel Tate was convicted of first-degree murder. He cried as he was escorted out of the courtroom. I think you have to expect that from a 12-year-old who I don't even know how much of everything they understand, but they know they're being shackled and taken away. They know they didn't win. They lost big time.

Sure. The New York Times reported that, you know, one of his attorneys, James Lewis said, he understands that this is the worst possible verdict he can get. Yeah, but does he fully understand the ramifications of the verdict? Yeah, that part I don't know. Like I said, I do think, you know, a kid that age would understand that what has happened is really bad for me,

but do they really understand? how bad, like rest of my life bad. Exactly. Because to a 12 year old, the rest of your life is, it doesn't even seem real. Now, you and I, as older men, I'll say older. Yeah. Some of us older than others, one of us older than others. Obviously at a certain point in your life, you understand a lifespan.

You understand that it goes quickly and you only have. so much time. But at 12 years old, can you grasp that? I don't think I did. No, I don't think you can. I was just happy to ride my huffy around and, and try to get my, my parents to get me a, uh, something from the ice cream truck. I wasn't thinking about 401k's and, you know, getting diabetes and, and managing gout. Me neither. Prosecutor Ken Padowitz said, I think what happened in this case was a horrible, terrible tragedy all the way around. There are no winners in this case, only losers. And I would agree with that. I think that's a fair statement. Lionel had recently turned 14 by the time that his sentencing occurred. On March 9th, 2001, Lionel Tate was sentenced

to life in prison without the possibility of parole. Wow, man. At the age of 14. That's hard to belief. We've had discussions about sentencing, some good, some bad. I get the life, but without parole for a 12-year-old at the time of the crime. Seems a little strong. Judge Joel T. Lazarus denied a request to reduce the charge to second-degree murder or manslaughter, which would have eliminated the mandatory life sentence. The New York Times reported that he said he was moved by the public sympathy for Lionel, but at the same time, I am dismayed by the lack of concern for the child victimized by Lionel Tate. He believed that the physical evidence indicated Tiffany's death was not accidental. He said, the acts of Lionel Tate were not the playful

acts of a child. The acts of Lionel Tate were cold, callous, and indescribably cruel. Lionel's mother told the judge that Tiffany's death was an accident, which was why she refused to accept the plea deal. She didn't want Lionel to plead guilty to homicide. She told the media, people say that I'm a fool for not accepting the plea bargain, but how do you send your son to jail for just playing? So I think it backs up some of the things that we've already said. Sure. Yeah. It sounds to me as though in her mind, she just couldn't give.

get herself to that point where, number one, she could believe that her child was capable of doing what they said he did. Right. And number two, she didn't want to see him do any time. I get it. But you know, a grand jury looked at this and said, move it forward. At what point do you change your thought pattern? Well, it sounds like she never did throughout the entirety of, you know, the whole legal proceedings. James Lewis announced. announced his intentions to appeal and he asked the governor to commute the sentence. Kenneth Paddowitz said that Lionel should have been tried as an adult because of the severity of the crime, but there should have been leniency in sentencing.

He also noted that they made a plea offer repeatedly over the past year. So I think that that answers one of the questions that I had. Padowitz asked the judge to uphold the conviction, but said that he supported the defense. defense's request for a commuted sentence. The prosecutor also announced that he was going to ask the governor to begin clemency proceedings to reduce the sentence. So you've got people who are on opposite sides of the legal aisle, right? The prosecutor and the defense attorney basically agreeing that the charge should be reduced. And this kid should not spend the rest of his life in prison. the judge would budge.

You know, he stuck to the original conviction. Governor Jeff Bush announced on March 9th that he would request to have Lionel housed in a juvenile detention center and was willing to hear a clemency request. But he later decided not to intervene in the case. I tried to find a little bit more around why, you know, he made that decision. I really couldn't after the sentencing. Lionel was taken to the Broward County Jail, then turned over to the Department of Corrections Reception Center in Miami.

His attorneys hoped that he would be put in protective custody away from the adult population. But Gibbs, my understanding was that it was really at the reception center where his placement, either, you know, as an adult with all these other real adults. Right. or as a juvenile and maybe protected in some certain way would be decided. I don't know how much decision needs to be made here. That's what I was thinking. What he did was terrible, wrong, but do you take a child and drop them into a situation where

there's a bunch of predators 20, 30, 40, 50 years old? Yeah. How can you do that? I don't think that's the right thing to do there. Now, in some cases, we've seen where people were tried as adults, but I thought that they served their time in a juvenile type facility until they were 18. And then it was only at that point that they were transferred to, you know, a quote unquote adult prison. I'm with you, man. I just can't see.

Now he's 14. I said 12. But now he's 14 years old. But even a 14 year old, you're going to put in a general. population prison? Yeah. I don't even want to be there. I sure wouldn't have wanted to be there when I was 14 years old. No, you know Jim Pop's going to eat them up. Duis, Eunich Paul appeared on Good Morning America. She did an interview on there. Many people, including her, were shocked by the sentencing. She said, yes, you murdered my daughter. And I don't expect him to just get up and walk free.

I didn't expect that at all. But at the same time. my heart was set on what can you do to help him and this one of the reasons why i found this case so fascinating you know normally you have two opposing sides and they're really at opposition on virtually every facet of a case and that just is not true here at all right she also told good morning america i was saddened because lionel had gotten a second chance to life my daughter didn't get that he had gotten a second chance to life where he was able to get three years and would have been rehabilitated and that's sad in my heart that they did not take that so that he would have a second chance to lie. Hey, I'm with her on that. It's, um, it's an opportunity that was missed.

Yeah, I mean, you mentioned Monday morning quarterbacking. You know, obviously it's easy to look back with hindsight and say, okay, we made a mistake. We really should have taken this deal. Right. But to have the mother of the murder victim come out on a big show and say, I didn't want him to go free, but at the same time, I didn't want him to spend the rest of his life in prison. I didn't think that was fair. That along with the prosecutor saying it, it really tells you something about this case. She also said on the show, Jesus came. Jesus died for all our sins. When we do things wrong, we can go to him, we can ask for forgiveness, right?

So who am I not to forgive him for what he did to my daughter and did to my life? Now, I know I've said this more than once, but the level of forgiveness that some parents of murdered children show, it really blows me away. Because in the back of my mind, I'm thinking, I just don't know if I can. could do that. Now, this is maybe a little bit different because you're talking about, you know, a young child himself, right, 12, 13, 14 years old. I certainly couldn't do it with an adult. No way. I'm not even sure if I could do it here. I would just feel like I would just be so mad, so angry. Finally, Dewey said, Kathleen was saying that how do you tell a child that he's going to prison

for the rest of his life for playing? No, you can't tell him that because you're lying to him. he's not going to prison because he was playing he's going to prison because he murdered that's the bottom line here it sounds harsh it sounds cold but that's the truth so she's not sugarcoating that part no she truly believes that lionel tate murdered her daughter but at the same time she wants some leniency she doesn't want to see you know him die in prison ken padowitz told good morning america this was a vicious and brutal attack over the course of five minutes on a little six-year-old first-grade girl with such force that experts testified it was equal to falling out of a second or third-story building.

The juvenile system in Florida only offered six to nine months in a juvenile facility. That wasn't justice for Tiffany Union. I presented the case to a grand jury and had them look at the evidence and make the decision. they determined it was first degree murder. He said that in his opinion, Lionel's wrestling defense failed because one of the main problems with the video reenactment was that Lionel was describing on the tape how he accidentally threw Tiffany against a pole that held up the staircase and then she went into a wall but he said this whole area was filled with boxes.

He also said that there was some type of exercise machine that was right in this spot that Lionel was describing. So the way that he described this thing occurring, according to Padowitz, could not possibly have been true. So he lied, according to the prosecutor. Yeah, and we didn't delve into the trial, but I'm sure a lot of this stuff came up at trial. after the conviction Kathleen and Lionel began working with attorney Richard Rosenbaum for a retrial or some type of reduced sentence. Rosenbaum told ABC, I don't think that he had a fair trial for a number of reasons. I didn't think that he was competent to stand trial. I don't think that most 12 year olds are competent to stand trial.

It's hard for me to argue that sentiment. When you think about, you know, someone 12 years old, understanding everything about essentially going on trial for your life. Right. I mentioned it before. Can they fully grasp it? I don't know. I don't think so.

At that point, a lot of 12-year-olds can't even grasp the concept of being home on time without being punished, you know? I mean, it's like, be home by the time it turns dark. Sorry, I didn't make it back in time before it was dark. Right. The consequences, I think to some kids, they just don't sink in. And here we're talking about, you know, really close to the most dire set of consequences that you could possibly receive. According to Rosenbaum, Lionel developed an eating disorder. He became depressed. He lost 51 pounds. According to ABC, in a phone interview, Lionel said, I'm sorry that this ever happened. I'm sorry that she died. he also said that he wanted to tell Tiffany's mother that he didn't mean to do it. Lionel said that he didn't understand what a life sentence meant until his mom and lawyers explained it to him. So, you know, here's something we haven't talked about. You and I have been doing this podcast for almost six years.

Right. We still get a bunch of things wrong when it comes to the legal parts. We're not attorneys. We don't understand everything. So, you know, does. Does it make sense that a 12-year-old doesn't fully understand what a life sentence is? Yeah. I completely see how that could happen. Does it mean that he didn't do something wrong? No, absolutely not. What we're talking about here is what do you do with a 12-year-old who does something

really bad? Right. That's what, to me, this case really kind of sparks, the debate that it kind of ignites. And I get that, you know, to drop a 12-year-old, well, I mean, at the time, he would have been 14 in the general population at a big boy prison just doesn't seem to be the right thing to do. Rosenbaum reported that Lionel began to describe in detail. What happened on the night he killed Tiffany. Rosenbaum believed that Tiffany went to the bottom of the spiral staircase and laid down. Lionel went upstairs to use the bathroom.

He ran down the stairs, jumped, and landed on Tiffany. Rosenbaum thought that Lionel was too scared to tell the full truth at trial. The legal team hoped to use this argument as evidence at a retrial. So here's a question I have. Do you think that in the mind of a 12 year old, we were playing around wrestling, I did a move and it went bad? Sounds better than I was jumping down the, staircase didn't see her and I landed on her. Again, you have to put yourself in the mind of a 12

year old. Sure. And I could see where maybe that does sound a little bit better. Right. Maybe I should say it that way because I'm, I'm denoting the play part. Sure. We were playing around. On December 10th, 2003, the fourth district court of appeal ruled that Lionel Tate should get a retrial because he never, had a pretrial hearing to determine if he could understand the proceedings against him. Because of his age, developmental problems, and lack of criminal record. He may not have been competent to stand trial. So at the end of this hearing, the court ordered that Lionel should be evaluated by mental health experts.

This order was given orally. The state argued that the motion should be denied because it, was required to be delivered in writing. So the defense said that they would submit a written motion, but the court then refers their decision. Lionel filed a written motion for a competency evaluation with affidavits indicating he was not competent at the present time or before his trial to assist in his own defense or make a decision on the plea deal. The court argued that they rejected the evaluation because up until the post-trial, he, hearing, no one had expressed concerns about his competency. And apparently two days before trial,

Lionel said that he wanted to go to trial. Neither before nor during trial did his lawyers say he was incompetent. So it sounds to me as though his initial attorneys never brought this up. No one in his camp brought it up. It wasn't until, you know, they were doing some of the post-conviction appeals that that was brought up. Neuropsychologist Dr. Mittenberg testified that Lionel had a mental delay of three to four years, which meant mentally he was really nine or ten years old rather than 13, 14. But he did have an IQ of 90. Dr. Joel Klass, a child psychiatrist, testified for the defense that Lionel had the

social maturity of a six-year-old and had delays in inferential thinking. Dr. Sherry Borg Carter called as a rebuttal witness, agreed that Tate was immature. So basically Gibbs, everybody's saying pretty much the same thing. Yeah. Each one, you know, a little bit differently in a little bit different way. But, you know, he wasn't at the level of a, you know, 13, 14 year old at that time. No. either socially or mentally, according to experts.

Broward County prosecutors offered Lionel the same plea bargain he was initially offered. If he accepted this deal, he would only have to spend, you know, a few more months in prison and then beyond house arrest and then probation. And again, you know, another thing that really drew me into this case, the prosecution seemingly realizing that this kid should not spend the rest of his life in prison. They offered the deal before the trial, I think at the end of the trial. And now they're offering it to him again. I think it just really shows you what the people involved with the prosecution felt about

the outcome of the trial. I'm sure they were elated that they got a guilty verdict. Sure. They just didn't seem to be happy that they had to live with the knowledge that this kid was going to spend the rest of his life in prison. Well, I mean, you think about how long that length can be. If he lives till he's 80, that's a long time. Yeah, over 65 years. Yeah.

Well, and do you have to take into account the victim's mother and what she said? Sure. So you've got a lot of people kind of saying the same thing. Lionel Tate was released from prison on January 26, 2004, four days before his 17th birthday. The state chose not to retry him. And he was offered the plea deal. The terms were exactly the same as they were back in 2001. Three years, which he had already served, one year house arrest with a ankle monitor requirement. Those are fine. Something that you know a lot about. Yeah. And 10 years probation, plus 1,000 hours of community service.

And he had to, you know, try to get either his high school diploma or GED. He had to go through counseling. And he had to pay $50 a day civil restitution to pay for his incarceration. Now, that seems like a lot of different things that I just laid out there. But when you stack all of that up against life in prison with. no possibility of parole, they don't even compare. The judge warned Lionel. He said, you'll be under scrutiny for 11 years.

The judge also said that if any terms of parole were violated, he could go back to prison for the rest of his life. Okay. I think if you hear that, if that doesn't motivate you to be on your best behavior for the next 11 years, I don't know what does. You know, we talked about consequences. Some people just kind of dismiss consequences because they're not afraid of them. But if you've got the chance to be free, yeah, you're on probation, but you're essentially free.

All you got to do is keep your nose clean versus getting into some shady stuff and risking spending the rest of your life in prison. That seems like a pretty easy choice to me. And those 11 years are going to be some of the hardest. times to keep your nose clean. Meaning you're 18 to 28 years old, give or take. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, a little bit easier for you and I now to keep our nose clean.

At the stage we are in our lives. Sure. Yeah. I did some things back in, you know, the late teens, early 20s that looking back on, I wish I hadn't done. Very questionable. Very questionable decision making back then. We're not talking, you know, super criminal.

maybe a little criminal, not super criminal, not felony criminal. A little in the gray area? Yeah, very much in the gray area. According to CNN, Lionel asked to speak privately with Deweese, Unique, Paul, but she declined and said she needed some time to think about it. She wanted Lionel to apologize publicly. And she later said, his choice not to speak tells me that he probably isn't sorry. he's just happy he's gotten out and that's the end of it yeah it's a shame that the uh judge didn't make

that part of the deal right that he had to give a yeah but should the judge have had to you know here's my thought and again i know everybody doesn't think like me but here's my thought i've got a new lease on life right i get to live my life free this woman's daughter is never coming back she's lost all those years with her right she's asking me to apologize publicly. I think I can figure out how to make that happen. Let's not forget, this is a woman who went on national TV and said, hey, what he did was wrong,

but I don't think he should spend the rest of his life in prison. So she may have been in some way responsible, along with the prosecutors of, you know, getting you this deal. But you can't do this small thing for her. Right. Why? Lionel's lawyer said that he did a pollixtual. in a private conversation, but Deweese later said that wasn't true.

Prosecutor Padowitz told the press that Florida law should be changed to allow prosecutors to exercise discretion in sentencing for similar cases. He wanted juvenile systems to be tougher on rapists and murderers, so prosecutors don't have to try children as adults to get a harsher sentence. And this goes back to what he said years before. And the reason why he felt as though he had to try Lionel as an adult, because what was the juvenile system going to do? Six months, nine months? Yeah.

As a prosecutor, is that something you can live with? Apparently he couldn't. So he went the route he did. I just think he never thought it was going to go to the very extreme opposite of the spectrum. Right. You know, six months to life in prison with no parole. role, that's a pretty, that's a pretty broad range. It really is. But he's saying if the juvenile system had a better system in place for these people that, you know, commit rapes and commit

murders, well, then I wouldn't have to do this. So I mentioned that Lionel Tate had a new lease on life, right? He's free. But he wasn't out of prison long before he was arrested again. He was arrested on September 7th for violating his probation. So I don't know exactly when he was let out. We know he pleaded guilty in January at the end of January. So I can't imagine it was too much longer after that. So maybe a little more than six months the guy was out before he was arrested. And it happened because at 2.30 a.m. on September 3rd, 2004, deputies saw Lionel and his cousin walking in Pembroke Park. This violated his probation because he was still on house arrest. The deputies stopped them and they asked what these guys were doing. They said they were chasing girls, but the deputies didn't see

any girls around. Lionel Tate identified himself as Leon Taylor. Both men consented to being searched and deputies found a four-inch knife on Lionel Tate. Now, there are some discrepancies. A lot of sources said four-inch knife. There were some sources that said it was an eight-inch knife. Okay, it's a knife. So number one, you're not supposed to be out because you're on house arrest. And number two, you definitely shouldn't be out with a knife.

Well, I like to carry my knife outside. Yeah, but you're not on probation. Or am I? That I know of. I don't know what you're on. It's hard telling. But so I said he identified as Leon Taylor. He gave a fake name.

The problem was he had an ID on him that had his real name on it. It's conflicting. It's conflicting. Not too hard for, you know, the deputies to crack that case wide open. He wasn't arrested immediately because at the time the deputies were on hurricane duty. They discussed the issue with Tate's community control officer. Lionel's defense claimed. his mom sent him outside after they had an argument.

So as a result, the judge extended Lionel's probation to 15 years and said there would be zero tolerance for future probation violations. Gave him an additional chance. But now we're at the point of zero tolerance. So if the new lease on life wasn't enough and the threat of if you do anything wrong, you're going back to prison. now it's zero tolerance and you're going back to prison. Do you think you would find a way to walk to straight and narrow?

Absolutely. You'd figure it out, right? Oh, for sure. Not Lionel Tate. He was arrested on May 23rd, 2005 for robbing a pizza delivery man at gunpoint. Well, we do know that he was in prison for a while as a youngster. Maybe he learned a thing or two. Well, you do have to wonder, you know, what,

did he pick up from these hardened criminals that he was around day and day out? Walter Galardo, the delivery driver, was delivering pizzas to an apartment in Pembroke Pines at 4.20 p.m., he knocked on the door and no one answered. He turned around to leave and heard someone yell, hey, he walked back down the stairs and said he saw a black man with a black bandana over his mouth and maroon shorts hiding behind the door and point. a handgun at him. This guy dropped the pizza and ran off, and the man with the gun chased him.

That fighter flight is powerful. Pizas be damned. It's rough being a delivery driver, you know? Well, I think it's dangerous. It's why they plaster those stickers on pizza delivery driver's vehicles that say the driver doesn't carry over like $20 in cash or something. I think any more just needs to say, I don't carry any cash. I would say less and less nowadays, right?

Yeah, for sure. And when you think about like a DoorDash delivery driver, they don't need any cash. No. They might get a little bit in tips or, but even, I think most people put it on their credit card anyway. Sure. Or their card that they use. At this point, you're only going to rob them for the food. A 12-year-old boy told the police that he let Lionel Tate use his phone to order the pizzas.

Walter Galardo came back to the apartment with the police and he identified Lionel Tate as the man with the gun. It was said Gibbs that Lionel was with a group of people eating the pizzas, right? Not only am I saying you're the guy who drew a gun on me. Right. You're eating the pizzas that I tried to deliver. Oh, yeah. He was hungry. Lionel admitted ordering the pizzas.

The police searched. his friend Willie Carruthers apartment and found Lionel's DNA on a pair of shorts that Galardo claimed he saw him wearing. Willie Carruthers met Lionel Tate in 2004 through mutual friends according to his sworn statement from September 2005. Caruthers told the Miami News Times some days I would see him walking to school but I never said anything to him until he started coming around where I live. On the day of the day of the time, the robbery. Lionel sent Willie a text saying, you still want to bust that lick after school. And Willie, you know, had to tell people that bust that lick apparently meant robbery.

I would have never guessed that other than deriving it from the context of the story. Sure. Lionel was referring to stealing from a teenager who was known to carry around a lot of money, but they never went through with this plan. Willie said he was on the sidewalk, outside. when Gallardo parked to deliver the pizzas. Lionel was on top of the staircase. He told Galardo that he ordered the pizza. He went into the apartment and Galardo followed behind him. A couple of seconds later, Galardo screamed and Willie saw Lionel waving a gun at him.

He said the man falls, boom. And then either he fell down the stairs or he ran down them. He's screaming, help, help, help. So there were some differing. accounts here. You know, Gallardo said he didn't see anyone until he knocked on the apartment door. Willie Carruthers never mentioned the black bandana detail. Lionel told his attorney James Lewis that he didn't rob anyone and he didn't have a gun. The police came to the scene and saw them eating the pizza and just assumed that he was the man with the gun. But those weren't the only charges that he

was facing. Lionel also faced charges of armed burglary with battery because the 12-year-old boy said that he left after ordering the pizzas but then forced his way back in. Prosecutors argued that they found Lionel's fingerprints on three of the four pizza boxes and they also had incriminating text messages that he sent to Willie Carruthers. According to them, he stole a gun from his mother. It was also said that Carruthers' fingerprints were also found on a pizza box. Trying to figure out why his mom even had a gun in the house. If he was living there, it'd be a violation of parole anyway. Yeah, you would think so.

I don't know if they were living together at the time. So at this point, what do the prosecutors have? They've got some DNA on a pair of shorts that the pizza man said the gunman was wearing. they've got Lionel's fingerprints on, you know, three of the four pizza boxes, but he admitted to eating the pizza, and they have the testimony from the pizza driver Galardo. Lionel's hearing was postponed for a competency exam on December 5th, 2005, because he wrote a letter to the judge saying he was suicidal and needed a psychiatric evaluation. He claimed that he was hearing voices and wanted to kill him.

himself. He also claimed that his attorney rejected his request for a psychiatric evaluation. On December 19, 2005, Lionel Tate was ruled mentally competent for a hearing. His lawyer acknowledged that he faked suicidal thoughts. Another inmate wrote the letter and told Lionel what to say to the psychologist who evaluated him. Both psychologists testified that he was manipulative and uncooperative. So you mentioned before, you know, did he learn some things in prison?

Yeah, I would say he probably did. If I get caught again, I'm going to do X. Yeah. Maybe. He didn't learn how not to get caught. Lionel accepted a plea deal

for 10 to 30 years for armed robbery and probation violation for gun possession. On March 1st, 2006, he pleaded guilty to both charges. But after pleading guilty, he asked to withdraw his plea,

but he was only allowed to withdraw his plea for the robbery charge. This seems to have come up in a number of cases that we've done recently. It sure has. People, you know, accepting a plea deal, pleading guilty, and then later saying,

hey, can I take that back? Can I want to withdraw that plea? He was 19 years old. Yeah. At this point in time, he was sentenced to 30 years for gun possession on May 16, 2006,

judge Lazarus told Lionel in plain English Lionel Tate you've run out of chances you do not get anymore and to be fair the kid did get a bunch of chances he did and I think it was the same judge right that said that's it now we're at a zero tolerance policy and it's not like he got caught jaywalking right he's got guns he's robin pizza delivery drivers Lionel's defense attorney H. Don Williams said he didn't understand why Lionel would want to go to trial for the robbery charge because he could get a life sentence plus the 30 years. He chalked it up to what he called bad advice from meddling third parties. So if we take a step back, right, he was offered a plea deal, which he initially accepted for both charges, 10 to 30 years.

According to Williams, Kathleen Gross at Tate told Lionel he could win an appeal for his gun possession conviction and he could win his robbery case and that he would get out of jail in a year. So to me, this is very similar, I think, to her way of thinking, you know, back when he was 12, 13, 14 years old. Right. He's going to beat it. The jury is going to see it his way or the judge. judge or the court or whoever it turns out to be, private investigator Joe Carrillo told the Miami News Times that he believed Lionel was innocent. Corrillo and former FBI agent Bob Whiting worked on the Tate case for almost two years without pay. They found evidence that put suspicion on Willie Carruthers. To Quincy Tompkins was the 12-year-old witness who lived inside the apartment. He initially said he saw Lionel Tate commit the robbery.

But two months later, he recanted his confession to Carrillo during a sworn deposition on October 11, 2005. He said, Lionel Tate wasn't there. And it was Carruthers who was standing by the door with a gun. I saw him take it out. And that's when I ran into my mom's room. And that's when I heard a scream. When asked why he didn't tell the truth, he said he was scared because Carruthers said he was going to kill him. So when you take this into account, okay.

maybe Lionel's mom had a little bit more to go on than we thought. Yeah. You know, maybe she's listening to this Carillo. She's listening to this recantation and saying, okay, a jury's going to hear that and they're going to quit my boy. But again,

you're rolling the dice. Always. Yeah. Right? You're always rolling the dice when you elect not to accept a plea agreement. Inmate Zawalski. Edwards called Lionel Tate's defense attorneys from jail. He said he was in Carruthers apartment that night and said he saw Carruthers wearing maroon

shorts and putting them on top of a cabinet where the police later found them. He told this to the private investigators who really had nothing to offer him for testifying, right? They couldn't offer him a plea deal. They couldn't reduce his sentence, anything like that. In February, a case report from Bowdo, Tech. Technology Group found Carruthers' DNA on the black bandana that Gallardo saw the gunmen wearing. Now we get more information.

Judge Lazarus agreed to delay the trial based on the new evidence, but Lionel never went to trial. On February 19, 2008, Lionel Tate pleaded guilty to robbery and received a 10-year sentence as part of his plea deal, which was set to run concurrently with the 30-year sentence. And in the end, he took the plea deal rather than risk being given a life sentence if he went to trial. Well, I think he knew what would or could happen based on past experience. Jim Lewis announced his intention to appeal, arguing that Lionel admitted to being an accessory, but he had no intention of robbing the pizza delivery man and he wasn't the one with a gun. Lewis said that the 10-year sentence was fair for being an accessory, but the 30-year sentence for probation violation was excessive.

In 2016, many of the people involved in the case met at the Broward County Crime Commission's Conference on juvenile and adolescent violence. Lionel's original attorney admitted that he got too attached to him and told him not to take the plea deal because he didn't like the thought of him spending three years in jail. Judge Lazarus expressed regret that Lionel's competency was not an important issue from the very beginning. Lionel Tate is currently incarcerated in Florida and won't be released from prison until January 2013. So, you know, as we wrap up this case, Gibbs, it's a very controversial one.

I don't think anyone disagrees that the death of Tiffany Unich was a terrible tragedy. For sure. Now, you can debate on. on how Lionel should have been charged, how he should have been sentenced. There's no doubt that this case brings up the difficult question. Should juveniles accused of serious crimes like murder or rape be tried and sentenced as adults?

Do you think because he was dropped into general population at the age of 14 and spent several years there, that that kind of crafted who he was going to be as a young man, coming out and the fact that he had this lingering over his head what he did right i mean he was known in the community as this individual for for killing a six-year-old girl yeah so i think it was probably very difficult as a young man to succeed yeah i'm all over the place with this case you know let me start with the question should juveniles accused of serious crimes be tried and sentenced as as adults i think the question is too broad for me

you know, to me, there is a very big difference between a 12 year old and a 17 year old. So a 17 year old that commits a very vicious, heinous murder. I don't have quite as much of a problem with them being tried as an adult as I do a 12 year old. Because I do think there's a huge difference there. Now, some people may say no one under the age of 18 should be tried as an adult. Yeah. Okay. I respect that. Whatever opinion you have, you know, the thing about this case to me is that I don't know what went on in that room with Tiffany. I don't know. Who does know except for Lionel Tate? Yeah. There's no doubt that she sustained the type of injuries that you just don't get from playing around. They were too massive. But I also think that this kid got some very bad advice. Oh, he sure did. And some people even admitted to it years later. Right. You know, his attorney saying,

I got too attached to him. I didn't even want to see him do three years. So I told him not to take the plea deal. Okay. And he ended up with life in prison with no parole. Right. But then that gets corrected. And maybe back to your point, how much did prison change him? Sure. Because we don't know that. But obviously he had a very tough time, you know, walking the straight and narrow after he got out. But there is a lot of cloudiness around this whole pizza delivery man and who was involved and who had the gun. You know, the guy ends up getting 30 years. He got 10 years, but it's concurrent.

So yeah, it doesn't really. Doesn't really matter, you know, all that much. He's, he got 30 years when to me there seemed to be quite a bit of doubt. There was a lot of people saying. he wasn't involved or, you know, he only was involved in this part of it. If he doesn't have the gun, as some people claim, then he wouldn't get 30 years. Right. For the gun possession, maybe he only gets the 10.

Exactly. But, you know, like I said, I was really drawn to this case because I thought there was some very interesting components, facets to it. you know, tragically, you have the death of a six-year-old little girl. Of course, yeah. Committed by a 12-year-old kid. And then, you know, what happens through the legal process? And then what happens to him kind of, you know, throughout the rest of his life,

this story's not over. He's going to get out in, what, nine years? Yeah. Having spent much more time in prison. Right. What is he going to do when he gets out in 2013? he's going to have to make a choice he spent more time in prison than he did it out out or he will have at least for sure by the time 20131 rolls around but i agree with he's going to have to make a choice

you know who you're going to hang out with what type of person are you going to be and are you going to make something out of yourself because yeah the choice is up up to you at that point now is it going to be harder for him than most people sure absolutely hopefully he's taking advantage of the programs offered in prison and the schooling, you know, the job programs. Yeah. You know, how to handle life programs. Absolutely. Absolutely. But that's it for our episode on Lionel Tate.

We got some voicemails. You want to check those out? Yes, sir. Hi, Mike and Giddy. My name is Callie. I'm from Indianapolis, Indiana, so I'm very close to you guys. I love the podcast. It's pretty new. So I'm trying to catch up. I have a case suggestion for you guys. It's Christy Marceau.

probably said Christy a little weird. Anyway, it's a very interesting case. One that the justice system kind of failed this girl, and she unfortunately suffered greatly for it. But I think you guys would find it very interesting. If you guys haven't done it before, I think you guys would find it interesting, of course. Thank you so much for everything you guys do.

I'm not on either team. I love you both equally. I think your banter is so funny. You guys are just funny. And I love how you guys are very to the point. Okay, thank you guys. Keep up the good work and keep your own time taking. Sorry, if I was a little awkward. Indy in the house. Indy, yeah. No, you weren't awkward at all. And we both love you equally. Exactly. Except Gibby's getting ready to say he loves you more. I can just see it in his eyes. It's obvious. I can read you like a book. Doesn't need to be said. Hey, this is Steven from the Dallas, Oregon. And I just wanted to say, I love your guys' podcast. I love everything you guys do. I love how much dedication you guys. I didn't do it. I recently just started listening, but I went back all the way at episode one,

and I'm already on like episode 70, but I'm absolutely in love with the podcast. Keep up the good work, stay safe, and keep your old, blind tickets. Cool. We love when new people find the podcast. Now, it might take a while for him to hear his voicemail. Sure. But eventually he will get there. Keep it rolling. And we appreciate the kudos. We do. Always. Hey, it's Judah from all the way up here in Washington. I'm, love you guys and what you do. I love how informative you are.

You guys always bring joy to my day. And I love falling asleep to you guys. It's kind of crazy, but I'd rather enjoy it. Yeah, I'm sorry. I sound a little sick. I've been sick for like four weeks now, so I'm hoping to get better. But you guys are definitely helping me enjoy my recovery. So I don't know, I love Team Givie, but I'm also Team Mike.

So I don't know. I love both of you. Anyway, God bless. Keep your own time. Take you. Bye. Well, feel better and get better. Yeah, we've got to have that. Hopefully, you know, T-Cats a little bit like some chicken soup. Yeah. It'll get you there. Yeah, we're like ginger ale and crackers.

Ginger ale? That too. Ginger L? I don't know how you said it, but it cracked me out. All right, but we had no mailbag this week. So that's it for another episode of True Crime all the time. So for Mike and Gibby. Stay safe.

your own time ticking.