True Crime All The Time - Lori Vallow Daybell Part 2

Episode Date: October 23, 2023

Lori Vallow Daybell is known as the “doomsday mom” or the “cult mom.” She was recently convicted of killing her 16-year-old daughter and her 7-year-old son and conspiring to kill her husband’s first wife. Lori appeared to be a perfectly normal, loving mother for many years, but she changed in 2018 when she met doomsday author Chad Daybell. Lori started to believe in light and dark spirits, zombies, and prophecies from the Bible. Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss Lori Vallow Daybell. In part two, we will discuss the final stages of the investigation, Lori’s murder trial, and the court dates for the other people involved in the case. You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

everyone and welcome to episode 355 of the true crime all the time podcast i'm mike ferguson and with me as always he's my partner in true crime mike gibson give me how are you doing good man about yourself i'm doing very well yeah thank you for asking well you know you don't always and i have to remind you i always ask you you know you have not not maybe on the air yeah maybe sometimes on patreon yeah you forget to ask me yeah i do yeah but no normally when we do the the actual show you know you know normally when we do the the actual You're very good about that. Yeah. Speaking of Patreon, we talked about a couple of true crime stories.

Talked about the morning show. We did. And got into some movies that you were watching. Yeah. Some you couldn't remember the names of who starred in them. It was just a pretty typical Patreon episode. But it was educational. Yeah.

It's always educational. Sure. Hey, let's go ahead and give our Patreon shoutouts. We had Gene Francois Grant. Hey, Francois. Melissa Duren. What's going on, Melissa? Gia.

Hey, Gia. Michelle. What's up, Michelle? Eleanor. There's Eleanor. Daniel Pruitt. Hey, Pruitt. Jedi Master Kara.

Well, I love a Jedi. Katie Parsons. What's up, Katie? Stephanie Reins. Hey, Raines. Kim Lakata. Ah, Lakata. Kim Panetti.

Well, hey, Panetta. Talisa Ermscher. Oh, Talisa. Kira. Rath. jumped out at our highest level. There's good old Ratford. We had Hells Bells.

What's up? Hells Bells. Sam Mick. Hey Sam. Haley Yeager. What's going on, Haley? Shelby Trots. There's Shelby.

And last but not least, Elaine McKeon. Well, thank you, Elaine. Yeah, thanks for all the new support. And then if we go back into the vault, this week we selected Megan Maddox. Or M square. Or M squared. And so we appreciate the long-term support as well.

We had great PayPal donations from Evan Sites. Hey, Evan. And Ann Kelly. What's going on, Ann? Yeah. Thank you to everyone. Gibbs right now on True Crime All the Time Unsolved. We have an episode out on the 2006 death of Ray Rivera, very mysterious.

This happened in Baltimore. And, you know, he essentially fell through a roof, but they thought he fell from a much higher greater height. Right. They ruled it a suicide, but his family and friends. And a lot of people just don't believe it. Yeah, there's some people thinking that there's some foul play. Yeah.

So we'll get into all of that. Make sure you check it out. All right, buddy, are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time? I'm ready. We're on to part two. And the last part on the Lori Valo Daybell story in part one. We covered her family and relationship history, the death of Charles Valo, and the disappearance of her two children.

ending with her arrest for desertion and some other charges. And, you know, we, we kind of broke it up in a very specific way. There were some things left hanging for a reason, but we'll clear all of that up in part two where we'll talk about the final stages of the investigation, Lori's murder trial, and the court dates for the other people involved in the case. And I'll be honest with you, I got a lot of. emails this week about this case. And I think a lot of people, to my surprise, were not familiar with it, you know, had not seen it in the news, maybe as much as I thought that people would

have had not watched the documentary. Surprising on Netflix. Yeah, it was surprising to me as well. And it's sometimes the reason why when you and I are talking about, you know, which cases to cover we kind of push some off. Right. Because we think, well, there's too much out there. Saturated. It's saturated. It's been covered too much.

And this just kind of, you know, kind of proved to me that not everybody watches all those documentaries and is glued to the news all the time. So let's jump right in, right? By April 2020, the authorities were investigating Lori and Chad in relation to Tammy Daybell's death. and they were taking another look at Charles Valo's death. And really, you know, when you think about it, how could they not? Yeah, they have to, right?

Let's go back to some of the things from episode one. Charles is murdered. Yeah. It was claimed to be self-defense and this and that. And then all of a sudden, Tammy's murdered. And the next thing you know, their respective spouses are marrying with, within what was it a week or so? Very short period of time.

And a very short period of time, you think about one spouse being murdered and how often that happens. And we always say the person who's alive, the spouse, they're going to be looked at, probably prime suspect number one. Of course. Until the point where they're ruled out or whatever.

But here it's almost like you've got to throw mama from the train. situation or what's the original movie that it comes from the Alfred Hitchcock I always know the two strangers no strangers on a train maybe I don't know what it's called yeah but I know the throw mama from the train one better but it's not even that because these two people knew each other they got married afterwards right it's supposed to be two strangers that take care of each other's problems right so that they're never connected You know, you get married five days later or whatever it was. It's just going to be so easy to put together that something's a myth.

Just seems so obvious, right? People questioned Alex Cox's self-defense story because it was said that Charles wasn't a violent person. CBS also noted that Charles played baseball in college. So if he really did hit Alex with the bat, he could have seriously injured him. but Alex only had a minor injury. Yeah, those baseball, collegiate baseball players, they can swing that bat, man. They can do some damage. Do you know a lot of collegiate baseball players?

A few. Okay. A couple pros. A couple pros. No, anybody that is a real hitter. Yeah. And if you play college baseball, you're, you know, you've got to be good. You're good.

Yeah, you're hitting some balls. Remember our buddy Vinny? He was good with the bat. He was. Yeah. For other reasons, though. Until he got sent upstate. Yeah.

There's kneecaps, though. Ooh. On June 9th, 2020, the FBI, the Raxburg police, and the Fremont County Sheriff's Office searched Chad Daybell's home and property. They dug in areas of the backyard where Alex Cox's cell phone pinged and they found human remains buried in shallow graves. I think this is kind of one of the things we left dangling a little bit in episode. episode one, you know, we talked about Alex's cell phone pinging at Chad's property on certain days. And I'm sure a lot of people made the assumption, and I even said it's going to come into play, but of what that would ultimately mean. On June 10th, the police confirmed that two sets of children's remains were found on the property.

Chad was arrested that same day in charge with two felony counts of concealment, distribution, or alteration of evidence. Serious charges. Serious charges. Not murder, but serious charges. On June 13th, the police confirmed that they had found the remains of J.J. Valo and Tiley Ryan. So, you know, a good part of episode one, you know, we spent talking about. how at a certain point, people stopped seeing JJ.

Right. They stopped seeing Tyley. Lori even called to school and said that she was going to homeschool JJ. It was foreshadowing that something really bad was going to happen. JJ was buried under a tree and Tyley was buried in the area called the Pet Cemetery. Prosecutors believe she was buried in the spot that Chad referenced. when he texted Tammy about shooting and burying a raccoon on September 9th, 2019, which was the day after Tyley was last seen in Yellowstone.

Wow. Going to refer to her as a raccoon in his text message. Well, he can't come out and say, right? Right. Shot and killed and then buried Tiley. So he's at least trying to be somewhat covert about it. Yeah, it's just sick, though, thinking about it. And, you know, thinking about what her response was when she received that text, you know, I'm imagining that she probably didn't care because it doesn't seem like she cared at all throughout this whole process.

Oh, no. And I'm sure we're going to talk about it more. It's hard to believe that she didn't know, right, what he was referring to. It was also said that investigators didn't find a raccoon buried in the area, according to CBS, on. June 29th, Lori was charged with conspiracy to commit destruction, alteration, or concealment of evidence. So again, you know, these are charges. Some of these are, you know, pretty serious charges. Sure they are. But we're not yet to the point of murder. On August 3rd, 2020, a detective described how investigators discovered the remains at a preliminary hearing for Chad Daybell.

according to CBS, Detective Ray Hermesia said that JJ was found under a layer of fresh sock, under three large flat rocks, and a piece of wood panel. Investigators found a plastic garbage bag over his head, covered with layers of duct tape. His wrists and ankles were bound with duct tape, as well as his forearms and chest. Tiley's remains were dismembered and burned in a fire. fire pit. This is really sick to do this to these kids. I'm just kind of lost for words, really. Yeah, no doubt. It's a very sad description. It's very hard not to paint a picture in your mind. And it's not a good one. In January 2021, the police concluded a review into Joseph Ryan's

death. The review started because East Idaho News obtained a recording where Lori talked about wanting to kill her ex-husband. The recording was made six months after Joseph died. It was sent to his sister and shared with the police. Okay. So you shouldn't kill anyone. We know that. You definitely shouldn't kill your ex-husband, but if you do, or if you did,

why in the world are you putting it on tape that you wanted to? Not the smartest person. No. And this whole, you know, if she's going to say, well, I'm killing, killing them because they're evil. They have the dark light. The zombies, the light and the dark. It doesn't make any sense. I don't think if you think you're doing good, this would be the good that someone would want you to do.

And I also find it very strange that you end up, it seems like, you end up picking people only in your family. Yeah, I mean, that's, that's going to come up, right? Lori told a group of people gathered for the second coming of Christ. He told everybody that I was this lying, crazy Mormon and got up in court and said all these horrible things about me and turned it around to where the judges believed him instead of me. I went through a lot of years of this kind of hard stuff and I was going to murder him. I was going to kill him like the scripture says. like Nephi killed just to stop the pain and to stop him coming after me and to stop him coming after

my children. I just felt I couldn't take it anymore. And I would go through the scriptures and I would find all the things like if he comes against you once, if he comes against you twice, three times, then you can kill him. It says it in the scriptures. I was like, there it is. There's my answer. I don't want to do anything wrong. I do not have a murderous heart. I just want it to stop the bleeding and stop the pain. But it was ultimately determined that Joseph Ryan died of natural causes. So, you know, go figure. We have this woman who we know is going to turn out to be a murderer. We said that right up front. She tells a whole congregation that she wanted to murder this guy. He died. and it turns out that she didn't actually do it.

Yeah, the whole. Allegedly. Yeah. The whole shame on you, one, shame on me twice, shame on nobody the third time because I'm going to kill you, basically.

Yeah, I think it's fool me ones. Is that what? Yeah, I don't think it's shame on you once. No, I don't think that's how it goes. But I think everybody understood

what you were saying. It took almost a year after JJ and Tiley were found for Lori and Chad to be charged. be charged with their deaths. And you know, it seems like a long time. It does. Given all of the things that we know that happened, but you could also kind of make the inference that, well, prosecutors really wanted to make this thing solid. And so they didn't rush into it. And if that's the case, then, okay, kudos to them. Because the last thing in the world that you won is to have a weak case, go to trial, and lose.

On May 24th, 2021, Chad and Lori were indicted by a grand jury in Fremont County for two counts of first degree murder for the deaths of Ty Lee and JJ. Chad was charged with first degree murder for the death of Tammy Daybell and both were charged with two counts of conspiracy to commit first degree murder for the children's deaths. Well, you can't get more serious than that. No. No, we kind of said some of the other charges were semi-serious. They were serious. But again, when you're talking about first-degree murder, that's it. Lori was charged with grand theft by deception. The indictment stated that she collected months worth of social security survivor benefits for her children and

child care payments after they die. Chad Daybell was charged with two counts of insurance for us. So, you know, it's one of the things that we talked about in episode one. There was, you know, quite a period of time where police were trying to figure out what happened to JJ and Tiley. They couldn't find them. They were searching for them. Yeah. The whole time, they were dead. Meanwhile, they were over in Hawaii signing it up. And she was collecting survivor benefits, their survivor benefits, and using that money to travel and do whatever. On May 27, 2021, investigators at the Chandler Police Department recommended that prosecutors file a conspiracy charge against Lori in the death of Charles Val.

And on June 29th, Lori was indicted by an Arizona great. grand jury for conspiracy to commit murder in the death of Charles Val. And Charles kind of went untalked about a little bit in episode one after he was killed. Sure. But it was for a reason. Right. Right. At that point, it was called self-defense.

That's what Alex claimed the police didn't know anything different. Now all of this stuff is coming out. Yeah. opens it up all over again. How delusional do you think Lori is today or back when all this happened? Back when all this was happening. I think she was pretty delusional. I, you know, and I'm sure we'll talk about it more as the episode goes on, but I don't know how, but it seemed like she got so wrapped up into Chad Daybell and, you know, some of his beliefs, his end of time, end of day. beliefs that she just became a completely different person to the point where it seems as though she had no problem with murder and and all kinds of stuff. That month, the judge found her incompetent to stand trial. She had not entered a plea and her case was put on hold. In August, prosecutors announced

that they would seek the death penalty against Chad Daybell. Well, if he did what they said, he did. then that's what he deserves. Well, again, we've talked about the death penalty argument a lot. Those who don't believe in it, they don't believe in it. If you do believe in it, then you would have to say that this would rise to the level of warranting that type of penalty. In September 2021, the day bell children spoke publicly for the first time with 48 hours. They said that they believed their father was innocent.

and was framed by Alex Cox and Lori. Garth Daybell said the authorities told him that Tammy was asphyxated. Mark Daybell told 48 hours, asphyxiation doesn't necessarily mean smothered. According to my understanding, it just means the breath was interrupted and in the end she wasn't able to breathe. And according to that,

there's more facts we need. We don't just say, oh, well, by Chad. No, there's still love. of their still connection. And I think in a lot of these cases where you've got children, especially adult children, so very tough on them, right? Because they have to make a decision. They do.

Do we believe that in this case, our father intentionally either killed or ordered the death of our mother? And they said no. They stood behind him. But, you know, every child has to make, you know, that decision on their own. Sure. I mean, this is the most important person in their life outside of their mom, right? Their mom and their dad are the most important people.

It's going to be hard to ever believe unless your dad's a real, you know. POS and you never had a good relationship with him. But let's say that wasn't the case. Let's say you loved your dad. Yeah. And he looks at you and says, you know, didn't do this. I love your mom. It would be hard. Absolutely. In your heart to believe that your dad, whom you love, would kill your mother.

That would be very tough. Especially if he's sitting there telling you, I didn't do it. The Daybell family later told 48 hours that there was actually a second pet cemetery on the property that wasn't searched. Okay. Two pet cemeteries. Yeah. It's a lot of pets. But how's that going to change where we're at with this case. Well, the only thing that I can think is that they're saying if they found the raccoon referenced in the text message, okay, does that now change things a bit? Maybe, right? Maybe in 2022, Chad's daughter, Emma Murray told 48 hours about the human remains saying,

I don't know why they would be there, but I do know that if he were to commit a crime. He wouldn't be foolish enough to put the evidence in his own backyard. And I often think that about a lot of the criminals that we talk about. I think the same thing. But I think what happens is that they are extremely comfortable with how they do things and that they're just never going to get caught. Yes. No. Why would anybody come and search my yard? There'd be no reason to. And if they did, why would they ever lift these three rocks up and pull the sod up right over here, you know? All five of the day bell children said they believe Chad is innocent and that he didn't know the children were buried on his property. They think it was done to frame him. Emma said that there was

time during the day when the property was unattended, which would allow someone to sneak in and bury the remains. She said her dad rarely went outside in that you cannot see the burial site from the house. And again, I think we're just getting back to that same thing, Gibbs, which is, you know, these kids, again, maybe not kids, but they are, they're his kids, not wanting to believe that their dad is a murderer. So you're looking for all kinds of different ways to kind of say, well, here's how it could have happened. And here's why it couldn't have been him. Well, it could happen another way for sure, right? It could have. Oh, sure. You know, unless you have it on tape or you have a confession or it could have happened a different way. Yeah, we're still left with the prosecution

proving that he did what he did. But that also, I think, is why maybe the raccoon was looked at so heavily because the text message was kind of damning. Well, you're right, because it puts him out at the pet cemetery. Yeah, in his own words, right, in his own text. Now, the fact that they didn't find the raccoon, how does he explain that? How does he square it up? The children also noted that there were lots of remote areas near the house where someone could bury a body and that, according to them, it was absurd. Chad would bury the bodies in the backyard area. Additionally, because Chad used to be a grave digger, he normally buried his pets in very deep graves. but the children were buried in shallow.

Great. Okay. I get it. I get what they're trying to do. And I don't blame them at all if they believe that their dad is innocent, which obviously they do. But we also don't know what happened that day. No.

And just because somebody normally does something with pets doesn't mean that they're going to do the exact same thing with a body. I'm assuming it was not illegal to bury a pet. So you could take your time. I'm saying you can get plenty of time, right? Different when you're trying to covertly bury a body and not have somebody see you and you're in a hurry. You might do things a little differently. Might cut some corners.

On April 11, 2022, Lori was found mentally competent to stand trial. On April 29th, she refused to enter a plea. So the judge entered a not guilty plea on her behalf. And I thought about that for quite a while, trying to figure out, what the play there was. Why wouldn't I want to enter my own plea? Yeah. Was that a tactic?

Did her defense maybe instruct her to do that? Maybe. Maybe it's, uh, if ever need it could be used in the appeal process. Yeah. I don't know. That's the only thing I could think of. On May 4th, it was announced that Lori would qualify for capital punishment if convicted. So big news puts her in the same category as chat.

On January 7th, 2023, the judge rejected a request from Lori's attorneys that she and Chad be allowed to meet in person and over the phone to discuss strategies and settlement options. Their attorneys presented the request during a motion hearing asking that to trial be delayed until 2024 and that the death penalty be taken off the table. So this thing's already dragged on for a number of years. Yeah, too long. And they're trying to get it pushed to another year. In March, the judge granted a motion to sever the two trials. So they're going to be tried separately? Yeah, and I was actually kind of surprised.

Maybe I shouldn't have been that they were going to be tried together. It does happen. We've seen it. Yeah. During a hearing on March 21st, Judge Stephen Boyce agreed to remove the death penalty as a possibility in Lori's case, Lori's defense argued that if her trial took place in the coming months, they wouldn't have time to fully review a large amount of evidence that had recently been turned in.

But it was said that the death penalty still applies to the Chad Daybell case. I'm a little confused on that. Well, I'm assuming that that was part of the motion to push the trial into 2024. Hey, we've got all this new information. we need time to review it. The judge said no, but did agree to take the death penalty off the tape. Maybe that was a compromise that they all agreed upon. Lori's trial started on April 3rd, 2023.

And we mentioned it earlier, right? Laurie was charged with two counts of first to remurder, three counts of conspiracy to commit murder, and grand theft. 1800 potential jurors were summoned to the courthouse, and opening statement started on April 10th, 1,800 people in the jury pool. That's a lot. That's a lot.

You're only picking 12 plus alternates. Trying to think of that movie with Gene Hackman, where they're like trying to get the perfect jury. Was that called the juror? No. Runaway jury. Yeah, yeah, that's it. There's another movie called The Juror, I think, with Alec Baldwin. That's really good, too.

Oh, is that good, too? Yeah. Same principle? No. No. If not, it would be the same movie. No, it is not. Prosecuting attorney Lindsay Blake told the court that Lori and Chad used their religious beliefs to persuade the people around them not to question their actions.

Their beliefs were also used to justify murder. And we talked about a lot of this in episode one, right? They got other people to kind of buy in to their beliefs. And part of those beliefs, you know, back to the zombies and the dark and the light, I do believe were used to justify murder. These people need to be killed because they're dark or, you know, whatever, whatever you want to call it. Yeah, I wonder how those people that joined the cult felt later. Well, I, I always kind of question people who join a quote unquote cult. And, and something goes really horrible.

You know, think about Jones Town or Heaven's Gate or, you know, you can just go down the list. There are survivors. Yeah. Who are left to tell the story. And,

you know, what do they feel? My assumption is they have to feel pretty good about getting out when they did. And they have to feel horrible about what happened to the people with whom they were very close. According to NBC, Blake said Lori was willing to remove any obstacle in her way and used money, power, and sex to get what she wanted. She also publicly revealed for the first time that Tammy died of asphyxiation at the hands of another per court TV. So really not telling us anything that we didn't already kind of believe, right?

Yes. But now, you know, saying it in court, but does it shock you? that Lori was willing to remove any obstacle in her way and use anything at her disposal to get what she wanted. No, it doesn't surprise me. It doesn't shock me, surprise me at all. Lori's defense described her as a kind and loving mother, who also happened to be interested in religious prophecies about the end of the world.

And that's a very calculated statement. It is. Who also happened to be interested in religious prophecies. Right? They're kind of putting that on the back burner. Yes. Not wasn't the primary. No. The primary is she's a kind and loving mother. She just also happens to be, you know, into this. It's like saying that you're a podcaster who also likes to play chess. Right. But you murdered somebody with the bishop.

We said we weren't going to talk about that. And you're on trial for it. So, I mean, that's kind of a strange statement to make. Yeah, it really is. And maybe when all this first started, maybe it was like that. It could have been. But eventually it flipped. Yeah. And maybe we'll talk about that more. You know, was she enamored with this Chad Debo?

I believe she was. Did she then start to kind of think along the same lines that he did? She read his books. She started to believe in the same things that he did. And she changed. I just don't think there's any doubt about that. Defense attorney Jim Archibald told the jury, some people care less about biblical prophecies. Some people care a lot about it. Thankfully in this country, we get to worship as we choose.

And that's true. We do get to worship as we choose. But what is he trying to do with that statement? He's trying to make it about religious freedom. Yeah. And to me, this case has nothing. nothing to do. No. With religious freedoms, there is no religious freedom to, you know, murder your children. No, as long as your religious freedom doesn't harm other people.

Right. So to me, you know, I always analyze these statements because I understand what they're trying to do. But at the same time, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me. But let's face it, right? the defense is facing a pretty tough battle, an uphill battle. There's a lot of stuff mounted against them. So if we can get the jury to believe that, you know, this is a religious persecution, right, my client is being persecuted because of her religious beliefs. Well, then maybe we can sway them that she's not all bad. Right. She's just a loving mom that likes her religion.

He also presented Lori's alibis for the three murders, arguing that Alex Cox and Chad Daybell acted on their own. Of course, because if you're going to put her in this light, now you have to tell the jury the other piece, right? Like, so it wasn't her that did this. So it was these two that did it. But they're all going to probably do that throughout the trial, blame the other people. Well, there's one thing that's certain. Two children and a loving wife and mother or dad. Yeah. So somebody's responsible for that.

So as a defense attorney, you have to say it wasn't my client. It was this person. That person's defense attorney is going to say, hey, it wasn't my client. It was this person. But maybe that blame game helps the defense in the end because then you're confusing the jury and they're like, well, we're not 100% sure. Yeah. I mean, again, at the end of the day, all they're trying to do is raise some reasonable doubt, right? Lorry's alibi notice stated that she was at her apartment in Rexburg when her children were killed in Alex's home. He was described as a co-conspirator

in the indictment. The notice stated that Lori was in Hawaii when Tammy died. And I'll just throw this out there. Both of those things could be true. But does that mean that Lori was not responsible for the deaths of her children. No. You don't have to be in the same place. No. To be responsible. We know that.

You could be the one who is directing the whole thing. Just as guilty. Later on in the trial, Sergeant David Stubbs testified that Alex Cox's device was the only device present between Chad and Lori's properties on September 8 through the 9th, 2019, and September 22nd through the 23rd, 2019. Well, he says the device, not the person, right?

That's true. And by device, I believe he means cell phone, right? Your cell phone data showing that Alex Cox's phone was at the property on these days. Jim Archibald also argued that the charges accused Loria of directing, encouraging, assisting or participating in the murders, which showed that prosecutors didn't actually know what happened. And that could very well be true. You could. I think you said it earlier. Unless you've got video of exactly what happened, how can you be 100% sure, you know, who murdered someone or who dug the grave and buried the body? Now, the cell phone evidence tells us something. Some of the

stuff against Lori tells us something. Some of the stuff against Chad tells us something. But I don't know that it's all that uncommon for prosecutors to go in and not be 100% sure exactly every little thing that happened and how it happened. No, because it's not always going to be available to him. No, just can't. On April 10th, Detective Ray Hermaccio testified that JJ's arms were bruised. and he had duct tape on his mouth and binding his arms and legs. Tiley's burned remains were put inside a melted bucket and buried on the property. And again, like we said earlier, heartbreaking. It is.

To think about, you know, how these two died. On April 12th, the jury learned that the investigation of the Brandon Boudreau shooting gave authorities more information about Lori and Chad's relationship and led investigators to reconsider Tammy's death. On April 13th, Lori's friend Melanie Gibb testified that Lori tried to use her for an alibi when the police were investigating the children's disappearance. She also testified that Lori believed some people were zombies, possessed by evil spirits, describing them as light and dark.

She believed her kids in Charles Valo were possessed, and that the only way to get rid of an evil spirit was to kill that person. She also referred to Charles as Ned, which was the name of the evil spirit that supposedly possessed him. Okay, let's just say that the testimony of Melanie Gibb was not beneficial. Not at all. To Lori Valo Daibel. And I think, okay, yes, the zombies being possessed by evil spirits, all of that is what it is. But really this alibi.

When you tell police who are looking for your missing children that they're with your friend, Melanie Yidd. And that later turns out to be alive. That's not going to look good. Not at all. According to Melanie, Lori had a hard time taking care of JJ after Charles died. She felt like she didn't have enough time with chat. She began saying that JJ was possessed when they moved to Idaho. Oh, so JJ was a burden to her.

Yeah, and I think this is a very interesting revelation. And it brings into question just how real this idea of light and dark spirits and zombies and people being possessed really was because it makes it sound like it was more of a convenient, right? She wanted to be with Chad Debo. But JJ was taking up her time. she also probably wanted to get rid of her ex-husband. And so what better way than to convince yourself that they're possessed by evil spirits and that they have to be eliminated? On April 14th, Alex Cox's widow, Zulima Pastini testified that Lori and Chad convinced

Alex that his divine mission was to protect his sister. And we said it in episode one, right? Lori viewed her brother Alex as the destroyer. And so, you know, Alex kind of gets in to the Lori and Chad doctrination. He buys into it. He buys into it. Other family members buy into it as well to the point where they're able to convince him that he has this divine mission.

Yeah. And if he truly believed that, two people, protect his sister, would he be willing to go to any link? Well, if he really believed it, then he probably would. And I think the answer could definitely be yes. Zulima met Alex in 2018, through Lori. They got married in 2019. Alex was devoted to his sister.

But when he learned about the exhumation of Tammy Daybell, he worried that he would be the fall guy for Lorian Chet. I think he had good reasons to worry. I think he did. Because I think he knew what role he had played, right, in the things that had happened. And if you're looking at Chad and Lori as kind of con artists, rather than really believing in some of these religious prophecies, then what would a good con artist do? They would set it up so that somebody else took the blame. And I think that's what Alex became afraid of.

DeLima testified that Lori was charming and convincing. As quoted by Core TV, she believed Lori was in high spiritual standing because Lori said she had direct contact with the angel Maroni from LDS religious texts and Jesus Christ. Direct contact. Zalima testified that Lori and Chad's followers received blessings about their past lives and what role they would play in the second coming. Lori and Chad were reportedly interested in Zalima because she was Lori's daughter in a past life who was raped, murdered, and dismembered. Okay. Wow.

Yeah. So there's how many billions of people in the world, Gibbs? People, people, people, boop. I don't know. What is it like? Six billion now? I don't know what the number is. What are the chances that this person who happens to become interested in what you're preaching?

Right. Was Lori's daughter in a past life out of all the billions of people in the world? You think you have a better odds of winning that powerball. Probably. Yeah. Probably. Zulima said she and other acolytes helped Lori with what she called castings to expel demons from Charles. They also tried to cast out a spirit from Tammy Daybell on the same day.

Someone attempted to shoot her at her home. After this casting, Lori received the phone call that made her upset. And she said something to the effect of idiot can't do anything right by himself. So someone, someone missed the shot? I think, you know, you can make that leap. It's not too hard to do. the prosecution later presented witness Audrey Baratira, Lori's former friend.

Like Zulima, Audrey testified that Lori held sessions to cast evil spirits out of people. Lori believed Tammy Debo was possessed by an evil spirit. At one point, Audrey lived with Lori in Idaho, but ended the friendship. Lori threatened to cut her up when she left. Well,

that's a good choice that you made, leaving. I'm sure she thought Tammy was possessed with the evil spirit because she wanted Tammy's husband. Well, doesn't that seem to be kind of an ongoing thing? People are possessed by evil spirits because why? They're standing in the way of Lori and Chad being together. Absolutely. Whether that's Tammy, whether that's Lori's children. You know, you throw Charles Vallow in the way. In the way, there. On April 18th, Lori's son, Colby Ryan, testified that he received text from Tiley's phone after she disappeared, but the tone and punctuation were off, making him believe it was someone pretending to be his sister. Well, your siblings are going to know if it's not really you.

Well, yeah, siblings, parents, a really good friend, anyone with whom you text a lot. Yeah. You know, if you send me a text and say, you know, I'm not feeling great. Can we tape tomorrow night? And all the words are spelled correctly? That's a red flag. That's a red flag. And I'm like, who has got Gibby's phone? Right.

And is impersonating him. I'm now worried about you. I get it, man. If I ever get a text from you, that's more than two words long, I'm like, why is he so chatty? He's never chatty. Yeah. What's going on here? Yeah.

I'm not a big texter. But let's talk about why someone would want to do this. It's not the first case where we've heard this, sending a text from someone's phone to make it appear as though they are still alive after you know that they're already dead. Yeah. It changes the timeline of things, which then could possibly change alibis or the need for alibis. Sure does. Yeah. Yeah.

Done right. could help a suspect out. The jury heard a recorded conversation between Ryan and Lori, where he accused her of killing JJ and Tiley, this conversation took place after the children's remains were found. As quoted by NBC, Colby asked Lori if she thought she could keep hiding from him. Lori said, I'm not hiding. Why would you think I'm hiding? He responded, probably because you murdered my siblings.

maybe you should understand. Lori interrupted him saying, I didn't. I'm sorry you feel that way. She insisted that Colby couldn't know what happened because he wasn't there. She said the kids were happy and everything would become clear in the afterlife. Colby told her to know that they're gone and you knew. And my phone is being texted by my little sister who's not even a lie. my poor brother who is the sweetest little kid ever for what purpose you tell me this is god's will

for my whole family including my stepfather to be dead so i mean this is uh this is a kid who's pissed yeah strong words and has every right to be and i think you can tell from his tone that he doesn't believe his mom at all you know quite the opposite from what we heard of the daybell kids they were backing dad. Yeah. Colby knows that his mom had something to do with it and he's, he's horrified by it. Colby testified that Tylee sometimes sent him money, but after she went missing, the money started coming from an account under his mother's name.

Again, it just seems like another attempt to make it seem as though, you know, someone is alive when In fact, they're not. In fact, they're not. According to NBC, Lori did not report to the Social Security Administration that the children were missing, even though federal law required her to do so. The kids received about $3,800 a month in combined benefits, and Lori received $1,900 a month for Charles's death.

Okay, let's add that up. That's like $5,700. And you didn't have to do the beep bleep bleep bleep thing. No. Yeah. That is quite a chunk of change. That's the big dollar amount. Yeah.

For doing nothing. Or $60,000 a year. To not work at all. Exactly. Now, I say for doing nothing, but what you had to do to get it was in the life of three people. So I'm going to make sure that wasn't taken out of context. On April 19th, Lori's friend. April Raymond testified that Lori and Tiley visited her home in early 2019.

Lori said Charles was having an affair and she needed a place to stay. When a prosecutor asked April where JJ was at that time, April testified that Lori said she was done with JJ and Charles and his sister needed to figure it out. So, you know, we have some people, friends of Lori, who are testifying. testifying about her saying some really nasty stuff and incriminating stuff too at the same time. You know, we mentioned it in episode one. JJ had autism. So for a mother to say, you know what, I'm done with him.

We also mentioned the fact that she gave away his service doll. Not the mother of the year. Not the mother of the year at all. But it also points to what? The fact that she knew either he wasn't. he was already not around or he would not be around shortly. Exactly. Prosecutors then presented a recording of Lori saying she deserved to find happiness

after her children's remains were found. Wait, wait, wait, wait. She deserves happiness after the remains were found. Yes. Okay. I find that really strange. Well, I'll say this. I think everybody deserves to find happiness.

It's the timing of. it right after your kids are found and that's what you're worried about i need to i need to find happiness well she does everything really quick you know she got married really quick um because she deserved to find happiness yeah but maybe maybe mourn for a little bit you know you would think someone would who lost two children on april 26 dr garth warren a forensic pathologist testified that jj was asphyxiated with a plastic bag and duct tape over his mouth, low levels of GHB were found in his liver. Tiley died from homicide by unspecified means. Dr. Angie Christensen testified that Tiley's remains showed evidence of thermal damage and sharp trauma, according to court TV.

So it doesn't sound good at all. They just couldn't tell exactly how she died. Finally, forensic expert Douglas Halapaska testified that Tiley's remains could have been stabbed or chopped by items such as a knife, machete, hatchet, etc. And it's hard to think that they could have figured it out. She was burnt. So the jury heard that Alex Cox's latent prints were found on the black plastic bag and duct tape on JJ's body. Tiley's DNA was found. Tiley's DNA was found on a shovel and a pickax in Chad Daybell's shed. So things are adding up. They are.

Stacking up. Doesn't mean that Chad had anything to do with it at this point, but... No, these are things that defense attorneys can try to explain away. It's going to be up to the jury to make a decision where whether all of this stuff added together kind of erases the reasonable doubt for them. prosecutors presented texts between Lori and Chad that discussed an orchestrated plan to take the children, according to CBS. Lori also texted her brother that she was trying to get to the bottom of what we need to do to eliminate them completely.

One text from Lori also said that she placed a spiritual virus inside Thailand. So, you know, I think when you add all of it together, it all becomes so very damning right these texts saying well what do we have to do to eliminate them completely right what we need to do to get rid of these children that does not look good at all and you have texts between lorry and chat you have text between lorry and her brother so it makes it seem as though all three of them are involved and cahoots in cahoos. On May 1st, Utah's chief medical examiner, Eric Christensen, testified that bruises were found on Tammy's arms and chest, consistent with someone restraining her.

He believed she died hours before Chad reported her death. The cause of death was asphyxia, and the manner of death was homicide. In one of the most critical moments of the trial, DNA expert Keeley Coleman testified. that Lori's hair was found on a piece of duct tape wrapped around JJ's body. Now, there have been a lot of things that we've talked about for the jury to weigh, for them to consider. But think about this one. When you think about a roll of duct tape, how does hair get on the inside of it?

Normally, it has to be unrolled. Sure. So unless somebody tore the duct tape found one of her hair, stuck the duct tape down on it before they, you know, put the bag in the duct tape over JJ's mouth. How does the hair get on there? Now, again, I still think this is something a defense attorney can try to tear down. Yeah, they can. They can say, well, whoever did this, had her hair on them and it fell off why they were duct taping.

But you can also say, well, maybe the hair is on there because she was doing the duct taping. But to me, if it was one thing that the defense had to tear down, Okay, maybe they can do that. But when you have to tear down eight, 10, 15 different really, you know, incriminating things, it becomes tougher and tough. Yeah, makes it hard. The defense called no witnesses and Lori didn't testify. That doesn't surprise me at all. That would not have gone well for her. On May 12th, 2003, Lori Valo DeBell was convicted of two counts of first degree murder, three counts of conspiracy to commit first degree murder for the deaths of her children and Tammy Daybeau and grand theft by deception.

Not a good day for her. No, no, really, really couldn't get any worse other than, you know, if she had gotten the death penalty, I guess.

On June 2nd, Chad Daybell's trial date was set for April 1st, 2024. He was granted a change of venue. So his trial will take place in Ada County, Idaho. Maybe he'll help him out a little bit. I doubt it.

I got to be honest with you. I don't know that there's anything that's really going to help him. You never know how a trial is going to go. But this is a little different for us. You know, we don't normally cover cases that are still kind of in flux. But the main person in this case, Lori Valo, Daybell, has been convicted. on July 31st, Lori received three consecutive life terms without parole, plus a 10-year sentence for grand theft. She was also ordered to pay over $50,000 in fines, a civil penalty, and restitution.

NPR reported that before she was sentenced, Lori spoke in court saying, Jesus knows me and Jesus understands me. I mourn with all of you who mourn my children and Tammy. Jesus Christ knows the truth. of what happened here. Jesus Christ knows that no one was murdered in this case. I had access to heaven and the spirit world. Since then, I have had many communications from people now living in heaven, including my children. Okay, there is a lot to break down there. Yeah. So number one, Jesus Christ knows the truth. Okay. I understand that. A lot of people believe that. But then to go on and say, no one was murdered in this case when every single piece of evidence concluded that all three

of these people, all four, if you include Charles, or murdered. And then she goes on to say that, you know, she has this access, right? Let's go back to Chad, kind of having a foot in both dimensions or two different worlds. She's almost saying the same thing. She is able to talk to her children in heaven. Lori said she had a near-death experience in 2002. When she was giving birth to Tiley, her deceased sister appeared before her, and this experience gave her the power to speak to dead relatives, Jesus, and angels. Lori said, because of these communications, I know for a fact that my children are happy and busy in the spirit world. Whatever you got to tell yourself to make you feel okay with what you did. And I think if you're a person like Lori Valo Debel, whether you want to use the word delusional,

I'm almost looking at her as a con artist. Sure. In a way, I think those types of individuals can do that much easier than the rest of us. They can convince themselves that, you know, what they're doing is not wrong. What they've done is not wrong. And that if I just keep lying, eventually, Somebody's going to believe my BS. Per People magazine, she also said, because of my communications with my friend Tammy Daybell, I know she is also very happy and extremely busy. How insulting to Tammy's family. Yeah, that she would say something like that.

Delusioned. I don't believe, you know, your children are happy that they were murdered. I don't believe Tammy is happy that she was murdered. No. in that you were involved and ended up stealing her husband, marrying him very, very quickly. I don't think she's happy about any of that. I think if she could haunt your ass, she would. And if there ever was someone to be haunted and a place for that haunting to occur,

Lori in prison in what, six by six, six by nine, whatever size cell she's in, right, there's nowhere to go. No. So to be haunted in that small space, that would, that would probably be some justice. In August, Arizona governor Katie Hopp signed an extradition request for Lori Valo. It could be three to six months before she returns to Arizona to face charges. Lori will face charges, though, for the death of Charles Valo and the conspiracy to kill Brandon Boudreau.

The state argued that the incident with Brandon was evidence of Lori's plan. to target the spouses of her followers to collect their insurance. Of course, she was greedy. She wanted the money. Yeah. So it wasn't enough for Lori to get rid of the people who she felt was standing in her way of getting what she wanted. She also wanted the money, right? We know she collected the disability benefits after her children were dead.

and now it comes out that part of the plan was to kill off spouses of followers to collect their insurance money. You know, I don't know every word of all the different religious texts and, you know, out there. I don't think any of them say, you know, that you should kill for insurance proceeds. Nope. And kill anyone standing in your way to get what you want. I don't think so. Brandon testified about how Melanie fell under. Lori's influence. He believes Melanie gave the shooter his new address. As we talked about in part one, the police believe Alex Cox is their suspect. But we also talked about the fact that he's no longer a lot. In November 2021, the police recommended attempted murder charges to Maricopa County Attorney's Office

against Lori and Chad. It's believed that they orchestrated the shooting. Chad was not charged, and neither was Melanie Polowski. In September of this year, Lori filed a notice of appeal, asking the Idaho Supreme Court to examine her case, verdict, and sentence.

So that is like as recent as it gets last month. Happening now. Yeah. Next year, the public will watch Chad Daybell's trial to see if he is convicted of murder, conspiracy, and insurance fraud.

We will also likely see more news about Lori's appeal. So like I said, a little bit different for us because not everything is wrapped up, right, but it is for Lori Ballot, Daybell, assuming that a higher court doesn't, you know, reverse her conviction or or anything like that. I see no reason with what we know now, why they would do that. But, uh, and then obviously we'll find out next year what happens to Chad. I find it hard pressed to think that he's going to wiggle out of this. I just think there's too much evidence. I think it's going to be difficult based on her trial alone.

But you'd have to say, Gibbs, the case against Lori Valladay Bell, it's both fascinating and disturbing for a number of reasons. You know, we talked about her extreme religious beliefs, this cult-like following that she is. and Chad developed and the complexities of all the different people who were involved. But for me, the biggest thing was the change in Lori. Yeah. You know, people said she was this very normal, loving mother.

She was married to Charles for what, 10 years? Yeah. And then it seemed like so quickly, she jumped head first into this doom. day stuff with chat. And was very devoted to them. Yes. And began to believe that her children needed to be killed because she thought they were possessed by demons.

And maybe that's true. But I'm starting to believe that it's more likely that that was just talk. Yeah. And that the real reason she wanted them gone was because they were a burden. they were in the way of her being with Chad Depe. Yeah, she wanted that life without them. And she could also collect their money and use it to vacation in Hawaii or whatever she wanted to do. Yeah.

It's such a horrible story. It really is. It's, it's, it's, uh, nightmares. Mom's kill. It's a sad fact. We know it. We've covered it. We have.

Now, this one had a lot of bizarre twists and turns. and, you know, a lot of people involved alongside of her. And I think that helped capture the attention, right, or the imagination of people. How do you get all of these people to go along with you? A question we've asked many times. But if you're promoting this kind of cult-like prophecy stuff, then does it become a little easier to get people to go along with you and to buy in to why certain people need to be eliminated. And think she's still buying into what happened.

Oh yeah. You know, she's saying, hey, I talk to them. They're good. They're happy. They're busy. She said that. I thought that was so odd. Doing the work that needs to be done.

They're busy. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, that's our episode on Lori Ballo, Daybell. We got some voicemails, Gibbs. You want to check those out? Yeah, see them. Hi, Mike and Gibby.

My name is Ricky, and I'm calling from California. I just want to let you know that I love your guys' podcast. You guys are absolutely unmatched. It's hilarious. I love to listen to you guys in the morning and when I'm going at the gym and I look like a crazy person because you guys have me laughing by myself. But you guys are just awesome and to keep up the good work and keep your own time taken. Thanks, guys.

Hey, have you heard our morning radio show yet? what's it called well w gibby i don't know w gibby you really thought you were going to come up with something i was i was like i was i thought you were going to say hey rickie you're so fine you're so fine you blow my mind hey rickie yeah i'm not allowed to sing it's not in my god but you didn't you didn't come up with that yeah hey mike and givie my name is prina i discovered your podcast probably a month ago and i'm already on episode 147 and i'm a patreon supporter absolutely love your show. One of my favorite things about you guys is your five and just your back and forth. Definitely

keep it up. I do have another suggestion for case. It is the Ocean City, Maryland murder couple by the last name of Cycret. I've lived in the area for quite some time and I've always loved true crime and I only found out about this case about a month ago. And I am literally refusing to read anything about it until you do a podcast on it because I I really want to hear the stories from you guys. Thank you for everything you do and keep your own time taking. Well, how good does that make you feel? Pretty damn good.

All right. Yeah. Yeah, me too. It's kind of cool. Yeah. I'm not familiar with that, but definitely need to check it out. I mean, she's got to hear the story. So maybe that means we got to do it.

By the time she gets up where she's at 147 now or something. Yeah, that's true. Maybe it'll. She got about 200 episodes to go. Maybe by the time she gets there. It depends on some of these people can binge. I know. Nobody's business. I like that, though.

Oh, I do, too. Benj away. Hey, Mike. And give me this. Jason from St. Paul, Minnesota. Longtime listener, first time caller. I was just listening to the episodes in January on T. Eugene Thompson. And a couple of things.

The reference about his place of birth, actually both Findagrave.com and the New York Times were correct. The New York Times referenced the county blue earth that he was born in. And as y'all were going through the episode and the part of St. Paul where T. Eugene and his wife bought their house is, I was actually driving through that area. And to getting an idea of how Ritzie that area is, that is actually the same part of St. Paul where the governor's mansion is at. And later on in the episode, you mentioned that he went up to Forest Lake as I was getting off at the exit of Om 35 to go south of the gas station in Forest Lake. Kind of creepy, kind of odd. I'll keep your head on a swivel and team T-Cap.

Man, that's awesome. Yeah, it is. And I've heard that before. people have emailed in and say, you know, I was listening to this episode. It occurred around me. And the next thing you know, I'm driving past such and such. Yeah. And you're talking about this is where this happened. And that is kind of strange, really, if you think about it.

It's happening with me on some of the unsolved cases of town. I'm like, I was there. I remember that field or I remember that house because I drove by it. Yeah, but you're just having a flashback. That's totally different. Is that what that is? Yeah. Oh, erase that.

No, I will not. All right, buddy, that is it for another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.