True Crime All The Time - Lowell Edwin Amos

Episode Date: January 6, 2020

Ed Amos was a manipulative and conniving bluebeard. His first wife died in 1979 from an apparent fall. Over the years, two more wives and his mother died under similar circumstances. Amos collected life insurance from many of these deaths. But, he escaped suspicion in most of them. It was the death of his third wife that put the police on his tail.Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the bluebeard Ed Amos. The circumstances surround the deaths of the women in his life were extremely suspicious. How could a man be so unlucky in life and yet, at the same time, prosper so much from his tragedies?You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise and donation informationAn Emash Digital ProductionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello, everyone and welcome to episode 164 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson, and with me as always is my partner in True Crime. Mike Gibson, give me. How are you? I'm good, man. How about you? I'm doing great. This is our very first episode of 2020. Yeah. Amazing. It is amazing. That we're saying it's 2020. 2020, man. Oh, you're saying it's 2000 and 20. Is that not correct? No, I don't know that it's not. I'm just saying you're going to put the and in from it. I am. I'm going to be different. Did you say 2000 and 19? It's 2019.

Is that how you wouldn't normally say it? How was your Christmas, your New Year's? It was good, man. Yeah. Did a little New Year's Eve pre-ce celebration dinner at the Hapachi. Yeah. Chop Chop Grill. Love that place.

Yeah. Do you just call it the Habachi Chapshap Grill? I did. Okay. You know where they do a lot banging with the... It's a Japanese restaurant. Or do they cook around the... The habachi table.

Yeah. Every time they do the same show, but you're always like, oh, that's good. That's good. I like that. It's fun. Oh, good. You almost seared my eyes, you know, my eyebrows off with that flaming thing. With the, uh, the smoke volcano.

Yeah. The fire sheeting out of it. Right. Yeah. I had a good one too. And it was nice to have pretty much a full week off last week. We did put out a new Patreon video. Right.

Which we had to, you know, write, record and edit. But. it was light compared to a normal week. Yeah. And it was very nice. I liked it. I was happy. Yep.

All right, Gibbs, we have some new Patreon supporters. Let's give our shoutouts. We had Rachel Brown. Hey, Rachel. Pamela Coburn. What's going on, Pamela? Britain Clark. Hey, Britain.

Suzanne Pajonas. Hey, paj Jonas. Dad Sullivan jumped out at our highest level. What's going on, Dad? As did Savannah Staley. Hey, Savannah. We had Tina Papa. Hey, Papa.

Lori. What's going on, Lori? Ashley Luongo. Hey, Luongo. Lynette Duncan. Hey, Lynette. Sarah Hawes. Hey, thanks, Sarah. Nikki Murphy. What's going on, Nikki? Allison Moore. Thank you, Allison. Yvonne Quinn jumped out of our high-slo. Oh, that's awesome. Yvonne. Thank you. Jane Cook. Hey, Jane. Sabrina Olson. What's going on, Sabrina? Kira. Kira. Hey, Rha, Rha, Janna. Hey, Julie. Eva Maria or jumped out of their highest level. Oh, thanks, Eva Maria. Kate Van Wirt. Van Wirt. And last but not least, Tabitha Ruiz. Hey, Tabitha. So we appreciate all that new support. And then if we go back into the Volkibs, this week we selected our good friend Vicki Farachi. Not only a long-term Patreon supporter, but she has actually written a couple of episodes. Yeah, and she's got a fun name to say. Yeah.

Farachi. Yeah. Thank you. We had some PayPal support as well, Michael Zarth. Hey, Michael. Christmas wish art. Oh. Hey, Christmas.

Yeah. I don't think that's a person, but I'm assuming that's more like a business name. I'm just to say it is. Jordan and Nusowitz. Hey, Jordan. And Jessica Ibarra. Hey, Jessica. So big thanks.

Yes. To everyone that supports the show. So like I mentioned, you and I did work a little bit last week, but we haven't seen as much of each other in the last couple weeks as normal. So it's nice to be back in studio, kind of doing our regular normal type. taping. We have a brand new episode out of True Crime All Time Unsolved. It's on Suzanne Live. Yeah. So we're talking about a college student. We are. We're also going back to New York State, where I feel like we've been quite a bit on Unsolved. Just so much bad stuff happening up in that little corner. Ghibie is picking

cases and for some reason he can't stay out in New York. Well, you know, I stumble across him and I'm like, hey, wow. Whoa. Yeah. We're in the all. Albany area. We are in Albany. And, uh, you know, it's a case where, you know, a college student goes missing. And we get into the normal unsolved kind of thing. Yeah. You know, the search for Suzanne.

Just running down the branches of the who could have done it. Who, what, when, why and where. Yeah. But it's interesting. Yeah. So definitely check that out. All right, buddy. Are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time?

I'm ready, man. We are talking about lull. Amos. Now, we've discussed a number of women on this show who have killed for money, some that you would call black widows, right? Right. Term often given to women who kill their husbands for money. But what about a husband who kills his wife for money? Well, that's what Amos was all about, cheating on his wives and then killing them for life insurance money. He was what people call a bluebeard. term for it. And it comes from a French story written in the 1600s by Charles Perra. About a man who keeps killing his wife gets remarried, kills another wife, and he just keeps doing it.

So that's where the name came from. I didn't know that. I had to look it up. That's interesting. I thought Bluebeard was some kind of, you know, Pirates of the Caribbean. You're like, Ar, righte. But this is a modern day, Bluebeard story about a man whose wives kept dying in very strange ways. And Gibbs, it was almost as if no one really thought to take a look at this guy until many years down the road. And we'll get into why that is. Amos was a man who thought he was a playboy and wanted to live that lifestyle.

The problem is he chose to kill to make it happen, right? Nothing wrong with being a playboy, I guess. I mean, I know you are. You're a modern day playboy. I'm not a playboy. There's nothing wrong with it. Go make your own money, do your own thing. Right.

Don't hurt someone else to support your lifestyle. Yeah. So let's jump in a little bit of background on Amos. And it's just going to be a little bit. Lowell Edwin Amos was born January 4th, 1943 in Anderson, Indiana to Loll and Mary Amos. So named after his dad. Not much in the way of early life or, you know, childhood on this guy other than I think most people called him Ed. He went by Ed.

I'm going to call him Ed because I have a problem saying his first name. It's probably best for everybody that we go with Ed. It is. It's much easier for me to say than Loll. So I'm going with that. He did have one brother named Frank and a sister named Susan. Ed's mother was a teacher in the Anderson community. school system. She taught for 20 years. His father died in 1967 when Ed was 24 years old. But really,

other than that, Gibbs, I couldn't find much. And I really didn't find anything in his childhood that would hint at the monster that this guy would later become. You know, really in most stories, that's why we're, we're hunting for childhood stories or, you know, facts about somebody's childhood, it's really to help us try to make sense of, well, what did they experience? I'm not sure this guy had any of those type of issues or traumas that we often see. Right. Which throws you off because you're kind of expecting to see that. Yeah, I think you're expecting it to help explain something, right? Doesn't condone anything that these people do. But when you have somebody that goes through a lot of trauma and has all

these head injuries. Okay, maybe you can help make sense of the wise, the wise or, you know, how they got to be who they ultimately became. When you don't have it, what do you left to think? Oh, I know. This guy had the monster gene or he just all of a sudden figured out that this is what I want and this is what I'm going to do to get that. Yeah. Kind of like woke up out of his bed one day, like that Michael Douglas movie and just said, you know what, I'm taking everybody down. Which one is that? Because you know he's been in quite a few movies. He has been a lot of movies.

You always pick somebody. It's not like these people have only been in like one or two movies. These are big stars. He's sitting in his car like L.A. traffic or something. He's got like that IBM computer repair guy look. Are you talking about the one where he gets the road rage? Yeah. Okay.

Yeah. And then he goes into the gun store. Yeah. I can't remember what it's called. but at least I know which one you're talking about. It could have been Wall Street. It could have been fatal attraction. All these were running through my head.

Yeah. The one thing that we do know about Ed was that he began working for General Motors, GM, at a plant that they had there in Anderson, Indiana. By 1979, Ed was 36 years old, moving up through the ranks at GM. He was married to his first wife. Sondra Hurd, who was also 36. On top of that, Gibbs, he was running to be the mayor of Anderson, Indiana. So the guy had a lot going for him.

He did, man. Good job. Not a bad gig. Wife. I didn't get a lot on his kids. I know he at least had one son, but I don't know exactly at what point in time he had. Right. The son.

I believe he had the son with his first wife, Sondra. But I don't want to say that because I'm not 100%. sure. But we know he's a father and it always makes me wonder how somebody could have a child and raise that child, but still be a monster. There's a lot of them. But we know they do. We do. It's just. And have a wife and sometimes be such a good family guy. Yeah. That nobody in the family or nobody around them even has an inkling. Right. Of the really bad stuff that they're doing on the side. So I get you there. Which is always. Well, because you're a father.

I'm a father. You know what it's like when you have your first child. There are certain things that change. Right. It's no longer, okay, I can go out with the guys and get, you know, blitzed. And there's a lot of things that change for parents. Yeah, because you. For most parents.

Can't imagine hurting an innocent person, you know? I mean, look, hey, don't get me wrong. Did my kids push my limits a few times? Oh, sure. Oh, yeah. What kids don't, you know, they like to push buttons. They know how to push buttons. They know how to push button.

Yeah, there's that twos and threes that we all go through. Like, you're like, wow, whoa, boundaries crossed. And then you get into like the 13s, 14s. Yeah. Then you have a different type of pushing. Yes. But it was on January 24th, 1979 that Ed called paramedics to report that his wife had fallen and hit her head in the bathroom.

The paramedics arrived and they found Sandra dead in the bathroom. bathroom on the floor. Ed told them that Sondra had mixed alcohol with a sedative, and that's probably what caused her to fall. Oh, that could be, which can happen. Ed was heartbroken, right? He withdrew from the mayor's race. He told everyone that would listen, friends, family, everyone, that Sondra had fallen in the bathroom, and she had hit her head so hard that it had caused a massive head wound. Yeah. Blood was everywhere. Here's the problem. The autopsy said that she only had a small abrasion, one small abrasion near one of her eyes. No massive head wound. Now, the autopsy did reveal that Sondra had both alcohol and a sleep aide called Dalmein. Really? In her system. Yeah. But the coroner was unable to conclusively rule on her cause of death. So it was left as undetermined, which I think happens. quite often. It does. Ed collected about $100,000, at least $100,000 in life insurance proceeds. And then

when he went on with his life, it's a chunk of change. It is a, it's $1979. Yeah, $100,000. It's quite a bit. And when I say he went on with his life, I mean, he really got on with his life very quickly. And that's why I kind of stressed, right? He's heartbroken. He's no longer going to run for mayor. but how heartbroken was he really because within a year Ed was married again, this time to a woman named Carolyn Lawrence. How long is an acceptable amount of time to pass? So if you hit your head tomorrow and you're gone. Why is, why does every story that you have end up with me dying somehow? But I don't want to say if I, because as a storyteller, I can't say myself. Okay.

So at you, how long will you allow your wife to remain in that grieving period before she can... Well, first of all, I'm dead. So there's no, I can't allow anything or stop anything. Yeah, but you have that conversation maybe whether one day say, hey. How long would I expect her to grieve? Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. A year, probably.

Oh, okay. I was thinking you would say at least half the amount of time that she spent with me. Oh, no, that'd be a long time. That'd be like 11, 12 years. then you can move on. Yeah, no, I wouldn't expect that long. Yeah. But that's not what we're talking about here with it.

No. Because there were a lot of reports that said that Ed and Carol had been seeing each other for some time, even while Ed was still married to Sandra. So it's pretty well reported on that Ed was cheating with Carolyn while he was still married to Sondra. Carolyn brought two older children from her. her first marriage and the new family moved into a rural home near Middletown, Indiana, right? So stayed in Indiana. They were married for a number of years, but the marriage started to fall

apart in 1988. Well, it might have started sooner than that, but it really fell apart in 1988. That was when Carolyn learned that Ed had taken out a number of large insurance policies on her. And she wasn't very happy about it. Now, why? Why? would that be? Well, because she knows what that means. It's possible that she did. I don't know. And I don't want to say that conclusively because I don't know that fact. But what you can say, and if I was him to her, I would say, hey, you know what happened to my previous wife. I don't want to ever have to worry about if something does happen to you. I want to make sure we're prepared. Well, I'm sure he probably did try to say that. Yeah, I want to make sure finances are okay. So I want to take care of you the proper way. But

At the same time, she might be thinking, hey, you and I were fooling around. Yeah. Your wife ended up dead. You got a bunch of money. Right. And then moved on with me. Are you about ready to do that same exact thing to me? And who are you fooling around with then?

Exactly. So she wasn't happy about it. It did later come out at trial that he took out a large life insurance policy. But he also took out a number of other accidents. death policies that totaled more than a million dollars. So that was just the accidental death part. Oh, wow. That was on top of a pretty large life insurance policy. So a lot of compounded policies here. Well, this is 1988. That is a ton of money. That is a ton of money. But the fights on the subject finally prompted Carolyn to throw Ed out of the house. So Gibbs, what is a guy like Ed Amos to do?

He's been thrown out of his marital house. He's going to go live with his 77-year-old mother, Mary Tolls. Ma. Ma. I want some meatloaf. The meatloaf and a place to stay. Yeah. Can I have those two things?

It wasn't long after Ed moved in that he rushed his mother to the emergency room. The problem is doctors couldn't find anything wrong with her. There have been some theories bandied about that this was part of, Ed's manipulation. Sure. Making his mother think that she should go to the emergency room in order to establish a record of a visit. I think that's pretty smart. Well, I think we're going to see that.

This is not a dumb individual. No. This Ed Amos. I mean, he was an executive for a large car company. Yeah. And he was very not only manipulative, but very calculating. Yeah. In the things that he did, we're going to see this as we go along.

Within weeks of Ed moving in with his mom, she was dead. So, you know, a few days in, she's at the hospital. Within two weeks, she's dead. But no one really suspected Ed in having anything to do with her death. Well, she was elderly. She was 77 years old. And like you said, he was smart and got her to the ER to set it up. Right.

He set that stage. Even though they didn't find anything. wrong with her, but she was complaining of something. Yeah. And we've all been, we all have, or we know somebody that's been to the emergency room where they had something wrong with them, but come back and say they couldn't find anything. It's happened to me. Yeah. Where I've thought, hey, something's not right here. I'm not feeling right, but they don't find anything. If they can't find it and they can't treat it. Yeah. So, so his story, you can't like, well, that was a big setup. No, man, like you said, you've been there but done that. Same, same with them. Yeah.

But because Mary was 77 years old, there was no autopsy. Her obituary said that Mary died after a sudden illness at her home. Gibbs, that's a type of obituary that you would read in any newspaper in any day of the week. Yeah. That happens every day, multiple times all over the world. He couldn't ask for a perfect scenario. No, and I think he knew that. Yeah.

And kind of helped set it up a little bit. there was also a thought that Ed was not going to benefit very much financially from his mother's death probably another reason why no one was really looking at Ed thinking, okay, did you have something to do with it? Probably not. He's not going to get much out of her death. Mary's attorney initially estimated her estate at $120,000 before taxes. We already mentioned he has a brother and a sister. Right. That is not going to be. a lot of money split three ways. Like 25,000, 30,000 each.

Yeah, after taxes probably. But that figure was way off because Mary Tolls was actually worth quite a bit of money. So over the year, she had acquired a bunch of farmland. Like 500 plus acres. Over 500 acres. And I guess she leased it out to a company called Good Night Family Farms. They did, you know, they had some kind of farming operations. they paid her probably a boatload of money.

Sure. And she still had the land. Right. When her estate was totaled up, it was somewhere around $1.2, $1.3 million. Now we're getting into his, uh, his acceptable range. Right. Even split three ways. Now you're talking quite a bit of money.

The amount that Ed actually collected from his mother's estate, it's all over the map. Gives you could read 10 different articles. There will be 10 different. amounts listed. Some people said it was over a million dollars. Some people said he got half a million. But I believe the true amount is somewhere between $300,000 and $400,000. And that would be the logical amount by the time you consider taxes in the split. Yeah, with the brother and sister getting the same amount, all three splitting $1.2, $1.3 million. But I mentioned the fact that her attorney initially came out and said, okay, she's not worth that much money or her estate's not that large.

It was years later that her attorney, this guy named Bob Miller, was accused of misappropriating over $200,000 from her trust. Yeah. So this was after she was dead. It was alleged that this guy for years after her death was writing checks to himself out of the trust. Wow. I guess maybe before they settled everything.

Right. He was also the, the executor of her will. He was the trustee of her estate, all this stuff. And that's a tough thing to be, man, because this exact reason. People think you're doing stuff. Yeah, you know, you're entitled as the executor of a will to take X amount for your time and energy. But you know how family members are. They don't think you should get anything, even though you're using your time to handle it. Yeah. I definitely think there was something a little bit more going on. I believe that, yeah. Because his attorney firm got involved. He offered a settlement years later to some of the people involved.

But because of all that, and I don't want to get too far down the rabbit hole on this guy, it's kind of difficult to say how much money this woman was actually worth. Yeah. She probably was worth more than 1.2. Could have been. I don't know if this guy siphoned some off before he came up with the net figure. Maybe that's why he came up. he came out really low in the beginning because he was thinking about swiping about a million of it.

Yeah. I don't know. Yeah, your mom's only worth this. And then somebody said, hey, where's Bob? Yeah. Yeah, he's in a ruba. He's in a ruba. He quit and he went to a ruba.

He went to a ruba. But here's the important thing that happened right after the death of Ed's mother. So Ed called Carolyn, his wife, to tell her the news. And I think Gibbs out of. grief out of pity for Ed, she took him back. Now, you could look at that, much like you would look at him setting up the doctor's visit. Yeah. And say, did Ed know that a byproduct of his mother's death, not to mention the fact that I'm going to get a bunch of money, but I'm also going to parlay this into getting my wife to take me back and let me back in the house. Yeah, poor me.

Poor me. I've got nowhere to stay. You know I'm heartbroken. Yeah. You don't know, but you can easily make that connection. Well, you could add a little sugar on top by saying, but when this estate gets settled, I'm going to have a lot of money. Well, you can do that too. Yeah. Now, later on, some friends would tell police that Ed asked Carol and another friend to help him move out of his mother's house very quickly because he didn't want anyone to think that he had anything to do with his mother's death.

It's a weird thing to say. It is a weird thing to say. that. It comes up later at trial. I mean, just say you want to move out because you don't want to be there because the memories. The memories. Yeah, I miss mom. It's, it hurts too much. Yeah. But here's the thing, within a year of Carolyn Lawrence taking Ed back or Carolyn Amos is really her name at this point, she was dead. It was on April 6, 1989, that Ed called police to their house. And he told them that Carolyn had electrocuted herself with a curling iron while standing in front of the bathroom sink fixing her hair, something that women do every day. Yeah.

Most of them do not get electrocuted. My wife does it every day. I've never seen her get electrocuted or even shocked. Well, today, most bathrooms you have the crown fault circuit interruptors. That is true. But we grew up. And I know my mom never got electrocuted. at using curing irons back in the back in the day.

I was in the 40s, I know. Easy. Oh, sorry. Easy. I think what Ed's claim was, was that the curling iron had some type of frayed electrical wire. Yeah. That caused the electrocution. It wasn't like she was standing in a pool of water.

Right. Using this, you know, electrical gadget. So the frayed wire touched her somehow and. Yeah. I think that's what he tried to say. police reports didn't list any evidence of any wiring issues inside the bathroom or with the curling iron. The coroner performed the autopsy on Carolyn didn't find a single sign of electrocution. You would think if someone is electrocuted to death.

Right. To the point where they die, there are going to be telltale signs that a coroner will pick up. Yeah. I don't know exactly what all those are. I've heard of people's fingernails getting burnt. You think there'd be some proof on their skin where the contact was made. Somewhere. Yeah.

Didn't find anything. What was found in her system was both alcohol and value. Okay. My nightly routine. That is your nightly routine. But it's very similar, you would say, to what was found in his. his first wife system. Yeah. And as was the case in Sondra's death, the medical examiner ruled Carolyn's cause of death undetermined. And I have to think, Gibbs, it's probably a big reason why police never

charged Ed and Carolyn's death. Either that or they didn't look at the circumstances around his first wife. I don't know. You would think, okay, as police, we're not finding the scene kind of how you, you described it. And as a coroner, we're not finding anything that's backing up your claim of what happened. But, you know, as a defense attorney going into a trial, you would be okay with either accidental death or undetermined. Sure. Because you have the most respected person in that county, the coroner, saying, I don't know

what happened. Yeah. I think without a cause of death listing of homicide, yeah, very hard. to charge somebody and take them to trial. Because like you said, I think a defense attorney might pounce on that fact. Oh. They're going to call the coroner. Yeah.

What's the corner going to say other than to back up their findings. Yeah. That they signed. Examination. So after Carolyn's death, Ed collected around $800,000. Nice chunk of change. Very, very hefty sum of money. Because remember, they got in the huge fight about the life insurance policies,

but didn't mean that Ed just canceled him. He was working it. He knew he was going to try to figure a way to, you know, get back into her life. I believe that. He knew payday was coming. Yeah. And if he couldn't swing it, maybe he would have gone a different path. I don't know.

So I think we do need to recap just a little bit. Kind of ironic that the life insurance policies that he collected on were the reason that Carolyn threw him out in the first. first place. Right. Like we mentioned, I think the death of his mother was the catalyst for he and Carolyn reuniting. Sure. He got a bunch of money from both deaths. Right. In a short period of time, he's happened within a year of each other. His bank accounts are looking pretty good. He collected, you know, at least $100,000 from the death of his first wife. And I'm using the word death, even though it's widely thought that Ed murdered all these women, you'll see why when we get to trial.

Right. But just think about how much money this man has collected over the years. It's a very, very large figure. Yeah. Total. You calculate in his moms? Yeah. I mean, you're at least one, probably one point five.

Somewhere in there, over a million dollars. Yeah, he's easily. He shouldn't be hurting for anything. No. It's almost like this guy has another full-time job. And his second full-time job is killing people for the insurance money. Profit. And business is good.

Business is really good for him right now. In his world. All right, Gibbs, let's take a break to talk about Best Fiends. You and I spend a lot of our time researching and talking about True Crime. It's our passion. But we need the occasional break. One of the best pallet cleansers for me is the game Best Fiends. And just like solving a true crime mystery,

Best Fiends has a puzzle-solving aspect. to it that really keeps me coming back. But even though the game has challenging puzzles, this is a casual game that anyone can play, but it is made for adults. It has an engaging story. It's fun to play. I find myself coming back time and again to try to get to that next level. The bright colors, the visual style, the design of the game, the characters rolls into making this a five-star rated game. Best Fiends updates the game monthly, new levels, new events, so it never gets old. It really is a unique and exciting puzzle experience, unlike any other puzzle game out there. And one great thing about Best Fiends is that it does not require the internet to play.

So it's great for traveling. You can play it anywhere. So engage your brain with fun puzzles and collect tons of cute characters. Trust me, with over 100 million downloads, this five-star rated mobile puzzle game is a must-play. Download Best Fiends free on the Apple App Store or Google play. That's Friends Without the R. Best Fiends. So Gibbs, we fast forward to 1994. 51 year old Ed Amos was married to 38-year-old Roberta Bobby Maori. Bobby had a 14-year-old son from a previous marriage. The couple lived in Pendleton, Indiana. Ed, by this time, had become a partner in a consulting firm near Detroit. I think he was actually dabbling in a couple of businesses around Detroit, although he lived in Indiana.

So he's got money in the bank. He's getting paid good during doing his job. Yeah, I don't know if he was working at GM still at this time. At 51, technically, he could have been retired. He could have been. My uncle worked at GM. He retired at 49. Yeah.

48 or 49. I think he started when he was 18 or 19 years old. Got his 30 years in and I'm out. Yeah. It was on December 9th, 1994. Ed and Bobby were in. Detroit for a company Christmas party at a restaurant. They were staying at a swanky hotel. So they had dinner and then they went back to the hotel, partied into the early morning hours of December 10th.

The next morning, Bobby was dead. So Ed's version of events go like this. They went back to their hotel room after partying. They did some cocaine. They had some sexual relations, some coitus. as I like to say. Cordes. He woke up the next morning to find his wife dead from an apparent drug overdose. That's his story. Okay. Here's the problem.

He didn't call police right away. In his initial talks with police, he said that he woke up at 9 a.m. He found Bobby dead lying next to him in the bed. He panicked. He got up. He flushed the remaining cocaine down the toilet, as you would do. before you're about ready to call police. Yeah.

He didn't make his call to police until 9.55 a.m. Takes a long time to grab that bag of Coke, walk over to a toilet, shake it out, flush it. Well, obviously it takes 55 minutes. Yeah. Then take a shower and, you know, got to do all that. So as he's talking to police, he did finally have to admit about the cocaine, but here's where the case starts to get very strange, because he sees. said that Bobby had sinus issues. She couldn't snort the cocaine, as most people would do.

So they had another way. This is what Ed is claiming to introduce the cocaine into Bobby's system. And it was through the use of a sex toy. So both vaginally and annually, the sex toy would be applied, I guess is the way you would use it, would be applied with cocaine. Strange. And then inserted and the cocaine would absorb into the blood system that way. The poor makers of the rabbit are like, what are you guys doing with our sex toy, man? Why? Why are you doing that?

It's not normal. So I got to be honest with you, Gibbs. That's something I've never heard of. Man, I know you can absorb drugs through your system in different ways. I've actually heard alcohol as well. Oh, that it's very dangerous to put alcohol in your bum. Yeah.

Because of the absorption rate. Yeah, there used to be, well, and probably still are women that would soak tampons in vodka and then insert the tampons to get the rush of the... The alcohol absorb? Yeah. I've never heard of that.

Yeah. Well, you know, you, would get the feeling of alcohol, obviously. You don't have any alcohol in your breath. No. And I remember on strange addiction. My strange addiction? Yeah. My daughter loves that. They had that husband and wife team. I was just talking to this to somebody the other day, that they had that husband and wife team that would do the coffee enumous. I've heard of them. Because they wanted to get that quick caffeine rush, but they wanted it as fast as possible. So they just did it that way. I like to take my caffeine slowly. Yeah.

I like to sip it. Call me old fashioned. Yeah. I like to take my, my drugs, whatever it is, my caffeine. You want to taste your coffee. Exactly. Yeah. I want to savor it.

So police are looking through the hotel room and they notice some strange things about both the room and about Bobby's body. For one thing, her body was very clean, causing authorities to believe that it had been washed. And I think to go along with this theory, they found what appeared to be makeup stains on the bed linens. But she wasn't wearing any makeup at the time police got there. Yeah. That's suspicious.

During the autopsy, the medical examiner took vaginal swabs, which did produce traces of cocaine. And in the medical report, it was noted that the level of cocaine in her system was 15 times what would normally cause a fatal overdose. Yeah. Fifteen times. Wow. And I think that's huge. And I think it plays a big part in this case. So no doubt, right. Ed was a suspect in Bobby's death from the very beginning, very different than in the deaths of his mother and his first two wives. I don't think he was ever a real suspect in any of those. Well, reminds me of those smugglers, man, that you see on that TV show, man, when they... They take those taped up balloons of cocaine and they put them in the vaginally trying to get to another country.

And the biggest concern is, if that balloon breaks, you will die. So you have that. I think you also have that in prisons, right? Visiting day, people trying to smuggle in drugs in some orifice. I say you just don't do it. That's my advice. I wouldn't. You can't make me.

Oh, I could make you, but I choose not to. You're like, I double dog dare challenge you. A double dog dare you? What resulted from Bobby's death was that people started to come out with their concerns, not just about Bobby, but their concerns about the deaths of Ed's first two wives and the death of his mother. Sure. I mean, you have to look at it. This is four women, three wives and a mother who have all died.

any woman that he supposedly loved has died. Yeah. So you have to ask the question, is this the unluckiest guy in the world? Or is he doing things he shouldn't be doing? Well, the fact that they do seem to die of some strange occurrences. Sure. Hard to explain. Yeah.

It also seems like once the autopsy is done, it doesn't back up what, you know, Ed has told the police. but police started what would become an 11-month investigation into Ed. And that investigation involved surveillance. Gibbs, two days after his wife died, Ed spent $1,000. He's in a bar, he's buying drinks. He's with two women. And the night ends in a menagerie. Oh, there's that.

There is that. Yeah. I don't know why he say it that way, but there is always that. There's always the possibility of that. Not for guys like me and you, but for playboys. Okay. My wife's going to listen to this and be like, do you want that possibility? What are you trying to tell me?

Why did you say it like that? Yeah. I'm going to get something for that. So you're a grieving husband, right? Mm-hmm. You just talked about, okay, what's an acceptable period of time to move on to your next relationship. Right.

Well, what's an acceptable period of time to blow it out? on sex with two women. It's not two days. I can tell you that. No. I don't know what the number of days, weeks or months is, but it's not two days. That definitely is outside of how to look distressed over your passing of your wife. Yeah.

There's no doubt that's eyebrow raising behavior coming from a man who had just days before lost his wife to an overdue. Yeah. I don't think there's any way you can explain that to something. somebody, you know, why were you doing that? No. It was so devastating. I felt like I needed to be with two young women.

You recently lost somebody in your family. Yeah. Everybody listening has lost someone in their family. Right. You know how much work is involved in the days after that, the planning and the, the grieving with family and all that. Now we're talking about your spouse. Yeah.

And you're out cavorting with two women at a bar, more than cavorting. Right. horizontally convorting. Yeah. It just wouldn't happen. No. Not if you cared for that person. So police talked to past girlfriends.

They talked to business partners. They talked to anyone they could find. Yeah. Carolyn's son. I mentioned she had a son from a previous marriage, told police that Ed had a book in the house titled How to Kill People, I think written by a man named Mike Gibson. Oh, yeah. That's a good book.

So here's my advice on that. If you're a killer, and obviously the Mike Gibson part was a joke, but the book is not a joke. If you're a killer, maybe you shouldn't keep a book called How to Kill People, just lying around your house where people can see it. Yeah, not a good thing. During the investigation, police talked to one of Ed's business associates who had been at the dinner of the night before Bobby was found dead. He was also staying in the same hotel. he told police that Ed called him at 8 a.m. Now keep in mind, this is an hour before Ed has already told the police that he woke up. Right. So right there, something's not right. Yeah,

here he is waking up an hour before he said he woke up and two hours before he told the police. So you're stretching how much time now that Ed had before he called the police to do whatever he wanted to do inside the room. But this guy went on to say that Ed, asked him to come to the hotel room and he went with another business associate. So these two guys show up at the hotel room. Ed told them that his wife had overdosed. Apparently Gibbs, he told these two men that she was lying in the bed, quote, dead as a mackerel. Wow. Now, is that really something you would say about your beloved wife who you've just found dead? You're comparing her to a a dead fish. Pretty harsh. Rough, right? Yeah. And if he's making that comparison,

how long has Bobby been dead to be that cold? Right. You know, if he's really saying she's cold, then you're getting into time of death there. The men said that Ed gave them a duffel back to take with them. He said he needed to get rid of some stuff. He needed to clean up before police arrive. Now, one of these guys did later look in the duffel bag. Says that he found a syringe filled with a yellow liquid, a washcloth that had a very strange odor to it in a sports jacket. There are some varying reports about what happened to the bag. It seems as though Ed at some point in time may have gotten the bag back and disposed of it. You can look at that and say, smart, not smart.

Got to get rid of this bag. Sure. If it has something incriminating in it, also smart to, you know, at some point get it and dispose of it. Right. But how smart is it to call somebody else in? Oh. And kind of let them not really in on your plan, but hand them something that could potentially implicate you in murder. It's a stupid move.

Is he banking on the fact that they're not going to look in the bag? Maybe. Someone told you, hey, my wife's dead as a mackerel. By the way, take this bag. Right. And either hold it for me or get rid of it. Are you telling me, as soon as you get out in the parking lot, you're going to pull that zipper back and go, what am I calling here? I want to see this.

Yeah. I mean, if you handed me something in a totally different context and said, hey, can you keep this at your house for a couple days or whatever? I'd be like, sure, no matter. No problem. I probably wouldn't look in it. Right. Knowing it's you, I probably would. You probably would.

If somebody else gave me something, I might not. Right. But if you told me, hey, I got to get rid of some stuff before I call the police and you hand me something, that's a totally different ballgame. Right. Yeah. It's just like when you give somebody something to say, hey, hold this for me, but whatever you do. Don't look in it. Don't look inside. Yeah. I'm definitely looking in. So here's the one thing I haven't talked about that is very important. And we've talked about the similarities, right? And in the deaths of Ed's wives. Here's the difference when it comes to Bobby. He didn't have any life. insurance policies on Bobby. Up until this point, everyone believes that Ed Amos has killed for money. Now, one thing that police did learn was that Ed owed Bobby around $30,000.

Not really sure how that happens when you're married, but. So he owed her? Yeah. Yeah, he had the money. Money. I don't know how much money he had. I think he spent money like a drunken sailor. Well, if he's buying multiple women.

men at a time. I don't know if he actually bought the women. I was a little, I was a little confused about that. Did he spend $1,000 just on drinks or did he spend $200 on drinks and $800 on women? I don't know. Right. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, I found it very strange for a husband to owe a wife money. I think that's weird. Now, maybe they kept separate accounts. Some married couples do. I have a very good friend. He and his wife keep separate accounts. My wife and I don't. We just throw everything in a pot. You mean she has all the account? She has all the money. Yeah. A woman also came forward to police to say that she was involved with Ed during his marriage to Bobby. And she went on to say that she had given him an ultimatum either in the marriage by Christmas or it's over. So now we're talking motives, right?

Right. Police also learned from friends of the couple. that Bobby had expressed some fear of Ed, said that she knew about the affair he was having and that she was planning on leaving him. And then a second woman came forward claiming to have had an affair with Ed during his marriage to Bobby. She said that Ed also told her that he was going to divorce Bobby to be with her. So again, this guy is stepping out on everyone with everyone. But that's even more motive.

Yeah. multiple motives. What's he thinking? I don't know. Maybe he's thinking I've gotten away with three already. I can get away with this one too. He cheated on his other wives. He's cheating on Bobby.

He doesn't have the money motive here, at least in the form of I'm going to get a big life insurance. Right. So pay settlement. So you look at possible motives of he owes his wife $30,000. He thinks his wife's going to leave him. He doesn't want that to happen or he's in love with one or more of these women and he wants to be with them.

Right. And to be with him. He needs to get Bobby out of the way. There's a bunch of possible motives here. But I mentioned this was an 11 month investigation. It took police 11 months to finally arrest Ed in November of 1995. By that point, he was 52 years old and he was arrested in Las Vegas. So he was so heartbroken, Gibbs, after the death of his wife, that he had to go to Vegas.

Because that's where you go. He had to get his Vegas on. That's where you go when you're depressed. No, you become depressed after you get to Vegas. You don't go there when you are depressed. It's very rare you leave Vegas going, man, life's good. I'm a winner. Yeah.

Some people do, but the house always wins. They get you somehow. They arrested him. He was charged with. the murder of his wife, Roberta, Bobby, Amos, at the preliminary hearing, a judge ruled that evidence and the circumstances surrounding the deaths of his first two wives would be allowed to be brought up in the preliminary hearing. That's a big deal because that ruling could have gone the other way and they could have said, nope, we're only charging him with the murder of Bobby.

So that's really all we can talk about. It is huge. Yeah, I think it's huge. I don't know if it's a game changer in a preliminary hearing. I don't know if there was any way that this was not going to go to trial, right? Even if they had excluded any testimony regarding the deaths of his first two wives, I think just what they had on Bobby's death alone would have been enough to at least get it to trial. I would think so.

I would think. Ed went to trial in September, 1996. for the murder of his wife or Berta. So the prosecution contended that Ed killed Bobby through the use of sex toys with a lethal dose of cocaine on them. Again, I can't stress it enough. That's just not something you're going to hear very often. No.

In a murder trial as the method of murder. I've never heard it before in my life. It's definitely bizarre and one of those one-offs that you probably won't hear about. for a long time again. They contended that Ed was cheating. Bobby found out about it and he knew she was planning on leaving him. And he wasn't going to let that happen. The prosecutor told the jury during opening statements that, quote,

Lowell Amos used death as a form of divorce. The needest, tidiest form of separation, no. That's what they told the jury. And I honestly believe that's what this guy did. He got to a point in his marriages where either he wanted to date someone else or he didn't want to be involved with this person anymore. And he didn't want to get a divorce. He didn't want to give up his money.

Right. He wanted to collect some life insurance and be able to be with whoever he wanted. That's what I truly believe. Yeah. And that's what the prosecution told the jury. So he had commitment issues. Well, he had no problems getting married. No.

Just staying married. He had some issues, you know, staying married, staying faithful. So yeah, in that sense, he did have commitment issues. During the trial, Carolyn Lawrence's best friend was called to the stand to testify. She said that she thought from the very beginning, Gibbs, that Ed had killed Carolyn. And she started to lay out her reasons for why she felt this way. and she was about ready to talk about the death of Ed's first wife. That's when the defense jumped in.

They objected because even though the judge had ruled that it was okay in the preliminary hearing, during the trial, they didn't want any testimony or any evidence to come in that wasn't specifically related to the death of Bobby. So they had to have a like a mini hearing or whatever you call it. ultimately the judge ruled that testimony would be allowed regarding the death of Carolyn, but would not be regarding the deaths of Susan or Mary. So his second wife, Carolyn, yes, his first wife and his mother, no.

The prosecution called a ton of witnesses. Most of them spoke on Ed's character. And probably not surprisingly, they didn't have a lot of nice things to say. about the man. They did bring in an Indiana stripper to take the stand. Okay. Who said that Ed confessed to killing his second wife during a lap dance. Now,

Gives, I know you know more about these things than I do, but the middle of a lap dance, to me hardly seems like the place to start confessing your sins. It'd be a weird thing to do, you know, but that's all I'll say about that. You sound like Forrest Gump.

That's all I have. I'm saying about that. That's all I got to say about that. They called former business associates, ex-girlfriends to the stand, pretty much anyone that could tell a story about what a piece of dukey this man, Ed was. Yeah. That's who they call. The medical examiner took the stand to explain to the jury just how much cocaine Bobby had in her system. We mentioned it, right? 15 times the lethal amount. It's a lot, man. It's not twice. No. It's not three times. Fifteen. times the lethal amount of cocaine, there was so much cocaine that not all of it had even broken down in her system before she died.

So you're saying 15 times what any human body can handle. What would be the normal lethal amount? Not any person, right? Right. Not a 500 pound lift. Maybe he could take more. But it sounds like someone shoved a half a brick up or something. It was a lot. Yeah.

It was a lot. And I think all of that had to really hit its mark with the jury. If you were on the jury and, you know, it's not 15 times what a person would normally take. This is 15 times what a normal lethal amount is. And then to have the medical examiner say it was so much that she was already dead when only so much of it had broken down in her system. There was a whole bunch of cocaine that never even broke down. That's how much there was. And that's Very, very telling. It's hard to say it was accidental. Yeah, and I think that's where we're going to get into as we go along. Ed did take the stand in his own defense. We talk about that from time to time. Good thing, bad thing. It doesn't seem to work out very well, very often.

And it definitely did in this case because pretty much every report out there said that Ed Amos was essentially the prosecution's best witness. Even though that he was testifying on his own behalf for the defense. So apparently at one point while he was on the stand. And this is what you open yourself up to by making the decision to testify. If your defense team's asking you questions, that's great. No problem. The problem is the other side gets to ask you questions.

That's when things usually start to crumble. the prosecution brought out a bag of sex toys. Not something that I think you see a lot of times in court. No. They had Ed essentially walk through with the jury how these sex toys were used. Oh, okay. Give us a demo. Yeah.

Tell us how. Not only that, they brought out a bag of flour. How did you apply the cocaine to it to get it inside? Yeah. That's basically what. what they wanted Ed to show the jury. Right. The prosecution pointed out the fact that Ed was the last person to see these women,

the women that they were allowed to talk about. Right. Before they died. He was also the first person to find them dead. Testimony also revealed that he didn't seek help as quickly as he could have, which we talked about, and that he messed around with the crime scene. Yeah.

Removed items, potentially watched the, body, all of that stuff. Ed's defense team called the prosecution's case week. They accused them of twisting the facts, manipulating evidence. They also point out the fact that the prosecution brought in most of their witnesses from Indiana, which I didn't think was weird because they lived in Indiana for a good chunk of his life. A chunk of his life. One defense attorney said, if he's so guilty in Indiana, why wasn't he charged with anything in Indiana? And that's a good question.

but I don't know how it relates to the fact that they're calling people from Indiana. Those are the people that knew Ed, new Bobby. Right. Also, new Carolyn. They tried to argue that both Ed and Bobby had been using cocaine that night and Bobby simply overdosed. I know at one point, and it may have been in the preliminary hearing, the defense said, there's no way that this is murder. At the very most, it would be manslaughter.

Right. but I think they were in a very tough position. And to me, it goes back to the fact that Bobby had 15 times the lethal amount of cocaine in their system. I would think it's pretty hard to argue that someone would accidentally overdose using that amount of cocaine. What his defense team did argue was that since Ed didn't receive any money from Bobby's death, what reason did he have to want her death?

Now, we did talk about some possible motives, though. Sure. I mean, he wanted to be with other women. And if you believe them, he told them that he would be with them. Yeah. That his wife would be out of the picture. And he also didn't want to get a divorce because if he got a divorce, he would have to divvy up his money. Yeah, I got the feeling that Ed wasn't the type of guy that wanted to part with his money.

No. Not that a lot of people like to part with any money, but I think. unlike most men, he was willing to kill to hold on to all of his money. Sure. The jury deliberated and eventually brought back a guilty verdict against Ed Amos. He was sentenced to life in prison without parole. Not too shocking. Now, I will say this is another one of those cases where there's not really a smoking gun, right?

There wasn't a witness that saw him actually commit the murder. There was a lot of circumstantial evidence. I think the coroner's report, that type of evidence probably hit home really hard to the jury. I don't think there's going to be very many people feeling sorry for Ed in this scenario. I don't think so either. Thinking that this was a miscarriage of justice. Now, Ed thinks it is for sure. During sentencing, the judge called Ed a selfish killer and said, Mr. Amos, I think you have to be one of the most dangerous criminals around because you have.

no conscience. I think that's pretty true. I don't think this guy had one. I'm not sure any of the stuff he ever did bothered him. That's dangerous. Very scary too. Scary. Yeah, sure. To encounter an individual like that. But then it was Ed's turn to talk. And he proclaimed his innocence. He blamed the guilty verdict on the intense amount of unfair news coverage. And then he said to the judge, quote, I hope and pray that this is the first and last time that you have to sentence an innocent man. Well, what else he going to say? Yeah. I mean, you have to, you're assuming the judge believes that you are innocent.

He doesn't. The judge thinks you are guilty and the judge is doing this. Yeah. Yeah, the judge had some other things to say to him after that, I think. But what else would you expect from a master manipulator? Is he going to stop trying to manipulate? No. He's got appeals.

He's got things that. that he will want to try later on. Sure. Let's set the stage for those by continuing to proclaim my innocence. Doesn't hurt. No. Now, after the verdict, a Detroit homicide investor, this is a guy that really worked the case against Ed, he told the media, I feel sorry for the prisoners of the state

of Michigan because they're about to meet the most manipulative man they have ever met. That's a statement you probably don't hear very often. No. Watch out prisoners. Here comes Ed. Yeah. He's going to manipulate you. Well, I think he probably would.

He would try. You know? He would try. But, you know, you never know. Ed might get a taste of his own medicine in prison, too. Could. Could backfire. I'm sure he'll definitely try to hone his skills.

His defense attorney also made a statement and basically said that he felt that the jury acted more on emotion than evidence. And he pointed to the fact that there were no witnesses to the murder and that the state's case was purely circumstantial. And I think that's an argument you hear a lot. Sure. It's not like you have a gun that ballistics prove was the murder weapon. You've got the murderer's fingerprints on the gun.

I mean, you don't have quite that type of evidence. So Ed's guilty. He's going to spend the rest of his life in a Michigan prison. Indiana authorities, they reopened the cases of, of Ed's first two wives and his mother, but no charges have ever been filed against Ed for the deaths of Sondra, Carolyn, or Mary. I think it would be hard to, you know, for them to go to trial on those because you have the medical examiners report. It's not going to help your cause. Again, we talked about the calculating mind of this guy. When his first wife died, Ed called the

paramedics. He didn't call the police. Right. They came. They found her dead. They removed her body. There was no police on scene to take photographs of what could have been or most likely was a crime scene before her body was removed. Right.

You think that's pretty smart? Really smart. And you mentioned it. The medical examiner didn't find any signs of foul play. There was no autopsy of Ed's mother. So I don't know what they're going to go back to to try to figure that out. And look, to take this to trial, it's going to cost the state a good chunk of change. Look, they're going to weigh these out and say, can we go to trial?

Can we win? And what's it going to cost us to do this? And at the end of the day, it's somewhat of a business decision. And the state's not going to go for that way, knowing that they don't have any solid evidence to move forward. Yeah, I agree with what you're saying. The medical examiner didn't find any signs pointing to a homicide. in the death of Carolyn either. So I think it would be tough.

And like you said, it's somewhat of a financial slash business decision. And they may also look at the fact that this guy is, is never getting out. Well, that's true too. Life without parole. Yeah. He's never getting out. He's going to die in prison. Yes, we could charge him.

We could try him. But do we need to if we already, we know he's not going to go anywhere? Right. Now, if he somehow won an appeal. They could always charge him and try him if they could get enough evidence. Indiana authorities have said that obviously if they had known back then what they knew in 1996, they would have done things differently. But at the end of the day, I don't think there's any doubt, Gibbs.

This was a very cold, calculating individual. And smart. Smart, manipulative. I mean, you can use all kinds of different adjectives for. this guy. I just think that he was willing to go to any length to get what he wanted. He knew what he wanted. And obviously, it didn't bother him that to get it, he had to kill people that he supposedly loved. Yeah. So, you know, did he love them? Was he capable of love? I don't know. Greed, man. That greed for money. It'll make people do really bad things. We know it does.

But that's it. That's the case of Lull, Edwin, Amos. I did read one interesting thing. Gives, and it's about a true crime tour in Detroit. I don't know if it's still an operation because the article was probably maybe six, seven years old. Right. But at one point, and maybe there still is, there was a guided tour where someone in a black cape holding a lantern would lead people through the streets of Detroit after dark. essentially pointing out spots where the city's true crime history occurred. Really? They would tell the story of it. And one of the stops on that tour was the hotel where Ed poisoned his wife. And it's very interesting.

Yeah. It's $25 a person. Yeah. So I know you would never go. No, I wouldn't go. I'd linger back and just follow the group around. And take it in for free. Yeah.

But the guys wearing a cape. Actually, it was a woman. Whoa. Really? Yeah. Oh, at least in the article that I read. I'm sure they had more than one person. Yeah.

I thought the article was interesting because it, there were a lot of people that said, they shouldn't be making money off this. And there were a lot of people that were saying, hey, this is history. Sure. Now, it happens to be crime. Yeah. But it's history and people like history and they like learning about history. And I kind of subscribe to that side of it.

Yeah, I do too. The stories that we tell are history. Right. They do happen to be rooted in crime. That's what we talk about. We could easily be talking about something else. To me, it's just all history of a city,

of a place, of a country. That's the way I look at it. You know what? And there's some good crime tours out there. Yeah, I think there are a lot of cities that have something like this. All right, we've got some voicemails. You want to hear those?

Yeah, let's hear. Hi, Mike and Gibby. This is Jamie McLaughlin. Deeran from Greenup is Michigan. And they're just almost near the. this is a side note. Dave and I actually met on New Year's Eve randomly the number of years ago,

and he wanted me to let you know that Uncle Jay has really lost it. No, but honestly, just joking aside, we want to wish you guys a wonderful new year. 2019 has been awesome for us. I know it's been a change for all of us in many, many ways. And I just wish you blessings. And he does too for 2020.

And I cannot wait to see you guys at Crime, So have a great new year. Stay warm and blessing. Thank you so much. Bye-bye. All right. We love Jamie. We always hang out with Jamie at CrimeCon.

I will say this, because we got a lot of voicemails. Yeah. Like that. Happy New Year's, Merry Christmas, happy holidays, a lot of those types of things.

Again, I can only pick so many certain ones to play. But it's nice to get. It's amazing. I just want everybody to know there are a lot of people that leave voicemails and, you know,

probably wonder why there's never got played. Right. It's because like the dead bodies on tour thing. Yeah. There were 25 of them. And I don't think people want to hear each and every one explaining the fact that there is a dead bodies on tour.

It's not called that. So he was right. I pick one or two, play them and then we go on. But I want to let everybody know that because they did take their time to call and leave the voice mail. Right. And we appreciate it. Hi, guys.

This is Haley from Nashville, Tennessee. I was actually the one who sent those mugs. I'm sorry, I didn't put my name in it. And I finally just caught up, so that's why I'm leaving you a voicemail now. And fun fact, my mom went to Ohio State University at the same time Fergie did. So I'm sure y'all like passed like parks at some point. And we'll know I am 19, so I'm probably about the same age as your daughter. So we do think y'all are kind of hip and funny.

So you guys have a great rest of your day. Happy holidays and keep your own time chicken. Bye. So that's very cool in a variety of ways. And hip. And hip. I wish my daughter thought I was hip because she does not. No, she does.

No, she does not. Yeah. Haley helped solve the mystery of who sent the mugs. Yeah. Which we've been wondering that for a while. Thank you. So we appreciate that. And I'm going to tell my daughter that there are some people her age that think that

we're hit. Well, you got proof right here. I'm a player of the voicemail. Hey, Mike and Gibby. This is Anne in Charleston, South Carolina. And I just listened to the Catherine Knight episode, and I have to go listen to something plussy and watch kitten videos or something because that was truly horrifying. I appreciate all that you guys do.

I hope you have a very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. And keep on, keep it on. Thank you. Well, whatever you do, don't go to Netflix and watch Don't F with the kittens, or the cats or whatever it's called, because that's not going to give you any warm, cheery feelings. No, that's not going to give you the warm and fuzzies, the Luca Magnonial. A story is not. Hi, Mike and Givie.

My name's Victoria, and I'm coming from Martinsburg, West Virginia. I've been listening to you guys' podcasts for a couple months now. Hopefully, it's going to be catching up to all the new episodes soon. I'm on like episode 1.30 now. But I wanted to suggest a case in 2015. My sister's best friend was actually murdered by her stepdad. Her name is Melissa's Guy Collin. And I feel like there wasn't a lot of information that was really put out to everybody.

And I feel like you guys would do like a really good job with covering the case. It's very interesting. Her body was eventually found inside of their house, actually in their bedroom under a pile of blows. And it's just crazy, you know, that feeling of knowing someone that was so brutally murdered the way that she was. And for her body to be like, you know, for that to be. Like, you know, for that to just just happen to her. She was just a sweet girl and stuff like that. And she was so close.

I mean, she was one of my sister's best friend. But I wanted to let you guys know about it and see, you know, if you guys wanted to try it and do maybe a podcast about it. Because I think you guys would just do a really good job with it. But, okay, thanks. And keep your own time ticking. All right. We will definitely look into that case. I do think it's got to be a strange feeling to have that connection.

We get those emails and messages a lot. lot where people have a certain connection to a case, maybe not that close, but it's still weird for them. Even if they find out that their mother cut somebody's hair and that person then later turned out to be a killer. Yeah, it's definitely strange feeling. Yeah. All right. We had some mailbag. Oh, okay. Katie Roush sent a big box of dance apparel for you. Oh, awesome. No. Actually, for my youngest daughter, the dancer, which was very cool. I don't get to try any of it on. No. Okay.

None of it's going to fit you. But she was so excited to get this box of stuff. And then Jessica Kirkham sent the biggest box of Australian snacks ever put together in the history of the world. Well, I know that custom agents called. Yeah. They wanted to make sure, is this really legit? I mean, the whole deal.

It was a big, it was, I know, it stressed you out a little bit. There was a, there is a thing of begemite in there. Yeah. Well, that's probably scared you. I opened it, smelled it, put the cat back on. Yeah. Now, will I get the nerve up to try at this time? I just don't know.

I think the next time your girl's boyfriends come over, you make them a sandwich. I'm going to. And you're like, here you go, boys. I'll make them. Well, I can tell them what it is. I'll just make them eat it. Yeah. So you need to eat this if you want to stay here today.

All right, everyone. We appreciate everything that you do for us. We appreciate you listening. We do. To our first episode of 2020. Yeah. I think this is going to be a really good year, Gibbs. It is.

I'm excited. for it. So that's it for another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.