True Crime All The Time - Lucille Miller

Episode Date: March 18, 2024

On October 8th, 1964, Dr. Gordon E. Miller was burned alive in a car fire on a lonely, dark road in San Bernardino County. Gordon's wife Lucille said they were returning from the store when the car suddenly caught fire. She said she did everything she could to save him, but the authorities did not believe her.Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss Lucille Miller and the murder of her husband, Gordon. Lucille had some burns, but they were not viewed as being consistent with trying to save her husband. When investigators learned she was having an affair, their attention towards her only intensified.You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 375, the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson. And with me as always is my partner in True Crime, Mike Gibson. Give me, how are you? Hey, I'm doing good. How about you? I'm doing really well. Good. And we talked about on Patreon this week, the weather is warming up. I think we're going to get another cold from, but you're kind of getting the sense of spring and summer and being able to go outside. And that's always exciting. You want to get out there and start planting some of your flowers. I do. Or whatever you plant. You know, I'm a big flower planter. Is it aorticulturalist?

Yeah. Let's just say that's correct. Okay. Because I think everybody knows what you were going for. Yeah. Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shoutouts. We had Jessica stamp. What's going on, Jessica?

Caleb DeBruin. Hey, DeBruin. Bridget. Oh, good old Bridget. Ann O'Brien jumped out at our highest level. Oh, you're awesome, man. Jennifer Odell. A no tell.

Cowgirl 521. Idi up, cowgirl. Ags. Hey, Ags. Abby Loveless. Well, thank you, Abby. Benjamin Ashdown. Hey, Benjamin.

Kathy Robinson. Thank you, Kathy. Mark Brockleman. There's a brockleman. Darby Landon. Awesome, Darby. And last but not least, Rebecca. Oh, look at Rebecca.

Yeah, and then if we go back into the vault. This week, we selected Paul and Melissa Hipperson. Well, thanks, Paul and Melissa. Yeah. Thanks for the new support. the continued support. We also had some great PayPal donations, a really sizable one from Melinda Wargacki. Well, thank you, Wargacki.

And Melinda's the teacher. Oh. Who, you know, I went to go visit her school and did a leadership thing. And she's been a huge, you know, fan of the show for a long time. She's so cool. Yeah. So appreciate that support. And then also Betty June Spell.

Well, thanks, Betty June. Yeah. Thanks to everyone. So let's talk about what we have. on unsolved right now. We're talking about the murder of Eve Stratford. Eve worked in the Playboy Club in London. This goes back to 1975.

So her murder occurred. And then another murdered occurred months later. And the two cases kind of got linked, but it took quite a long time. Yeah. A little bit of time. Yep. But not,

I don't want to give two months. much more way, but it is a very, you know, interesting episode. We're going to get a little rich, a little bit. You probably will for sure. All right, buddy, are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time? I'm ready. On October 8th, 1964, Dr. Gordon Miller was burned alive in a car fire on a lonely dark road in San Bernardino County.

The police quickly looked at his wife, Lucille, as his murderer. And there's no shock there. You know, we've talked about it time and time again. Police are going to look at spouses, family. You know, they're going to kind of work from the inside out. Yeah, it's just normal protocol. Dr. Gordon Miller was born on August 2nd, 1925 in Oregon. He went by the nickname Cork.

Hey, cork. It's kind of strange. Corky, maybe, but. Well, Gordon, there doesn't seem to be anything that, kind of fits cork as a nickname. So, but who knows? Maybe he had a special skill set. Yeah.

With corks. A lot of people's nicknames can come from some strange thing in childhood that doesn't make any sense until you hear the story. I mean, a lot of people are, why do you have the name Gibby? That is a very easy one. It's because you have always reminded me of the, the kid on I Carly, who would take his shirt off and dance on the table. Cork and Lucille got married on April 10th, 1949.

They had three children before he died, a 14-year-old daughter named Deborah, an 11-year-old son named Guy, and a 9-year-old son named Ronnie. Now, Cork came from a family of physicians. He was highly intelligent and joined an accelerated dental program in the late 1940s. By the age of 21, he was a practicing dentist. Wow, that's impressive. It is. It's not quite doogie-houser level, but it is very impressive. I don't know that you could do that today unless you were very, very accelerated. Yeah. But here's the thing. He hated his job. According to his daughter, Deborah, Cork wanted to be an airline pilot. He liked to take his kids to the airport to watch planes and he enjoyed flying with his brother. You know, that's interesting. because, you know, I grew up over by an airport. And I would see people, every weekend, people would be just parked watching the big

airline, not airlines, airplanes, take off and land. And I just thought, I don't know. Wow, these people have nothing else to do. I just, it didn't fascinate me that way. But obviously it fascinated these individuals. Yeah. I guess it does to some. Now, you also grew up over by where they have the big air show.

I did every year and I did live in that same area when I was very young we could watch it from my backyard I think you know you kind of get used to it yeah but but that is a spectacle oh it is because you've got the thunderbirds or whatever it's called and you've got the whatever blue angels I don't know the difference but they're doing tricks I mean they're not just taking off like they're going to Los Angeles oh no they're doing all kinds of stuff and it's almost like they know you're watching from the roof of your house and they're buzzing by you on purpose. And they'll have some of the old planes, the biplanes and do tricks and things like that. It's pretty cool. In Quarks family, a person was only considered successful if they were a medical

doctor. And I have a feeling that this, I'm not going to say happens all the time, but I think it does happen quite a bit. You see like a family of doctors. And it's almost like, okay, dad, is a doctor. They're pushing me to go to medical school. That's how they're measuring success. So they were kind of anti-dentai. Yeah, maybe. It was said that Cork wanted to leave dentistry to become a physician, but never did. Instead, he started his own dental practice. The expenses of running his practice and supporting his family meant that he really couldn't pay for medical school. I think that's something that a lot of people experience. You know, you have hopes and dreams. Well, a lot of that stuff takes money and time. Money and time. And when you have a family, a spouse,

children, a lot of responsibility. You know, they bought a house. They were living in Oregon at this point. It can be very tough to kind of take a risk. And number one, get the time to. to do medical school, but number two, the money. Yeah. That's a fairly large commitment too, right? Oh, absolutely. Lucille began pressuring cork for a new house in Altiloma, California. She forged his signature on the loan documents, and he didn't fight her about it.

But this house strained their finances and put them further in debt. I don't know if I'd be okay with my partner, you know, wife, girlfriend, whatever, whatever, right, signing my name to loan. Okay. So you're putting wife and girlfriend in the same category? I'm saying whatever, you know, everybody has their own, you know, if they're married, not married, whatever. But if you're with somebody and they go out and sign loan docs on your behalf. I don't know how many people would be cool with that. Yeah. I don't know that he was okay with it. It just said he didn't fight it. Yeah. And well, if he did, it probably meant problems for her, which meant problems for him. Yes. And problems for the relationship. According to Deborah

Miller, it wasn't her mother's dream house, but it was the best that she could quote, wrestle out of court. They didn't have much furniture because basically they used all their money to build this house. And that's never a good thing. I think you and I have touched on it before. Buying a house is an expensive proposition. Number one, there's, there's usually a sizable down payment. And then you know there's going to be this big bill every month. Right. If you buy at the top of your price range, at the absolute top, it doesn't leave room for pretty much anything else. Yeah, you're kind of locked into just that house and no furniture. And man, I don't know how it works across the country, but in this part of the area,

you get this thing called a tax bill based on your property value. And it can really put a hurting on you, especially after the vacant lot has now been improved with a home. Yeah, mine has gone up significantly. It got reassessed and my wife was not happy about the taxes. In her article for the LA Times, Deborah recalled that her parents were not happy together and were not happy about their children. Deborah wrote that on more than one occasion, Lucille slapped her so hard her teeth cut her lips. She was beaten with belts to the point where her legs were covered in welts and bruises.

Maybe we call that child abuse. Yes. I think so. Now, we also have said a lot of people had much different parenting styles back in the day. That's true. You know, spankings, belts, switches. Those were not uncommon in a lot of households. Grab a piece of racetrack.

I know you guys. got hit with racetrack quite a bit. Today, you know, we know this stuff doesn't happen quite as much. And I don't even know if this would have been viewed as abuse back then. Obviously, as we're talking about it now, we can see. We know that that this was abuse. You shouldn't, you shouldn't be hitting kids in the face. You shouldn't be hitting them with, you know, belt so hard that you're leaving welts and bruises and things like that. Deborah, described herself as an anxious and fearful child. You know what's going to perpetuate that? getting hit with racetracks, belts, getting slapped across the face all the time.

Feeling, feeling like you're walking on eggshells. Yeah, that's not a good way to be. No. She was afraid of going to a new school. So Lucille arranged for a girl named Terry Hayton to escort her into class. The two girls became friends and Lucille fell in love with Terry's father, Arthwell Hayton, a prominent attorney. Artwell, I've never heard that name in my life. Oh, Arthwell. I'm assuming maybe he could have gone by art, but usually that is short for Arthur. It is. Artwell never heard. Something's more like a Hamlet type of name. I was thinking it sounds like a cookie company or something. A cookie. Hey, hand me one of those arthwells. Those things are good.

One of those arthwell, uh, oatmeal cookies, please. So Lucille is having an affair, but the unhappy marriage continued. Cork often threatened to leave Lucille, and sometimes he did leave home overnight. At one point, he moved out for a couple of weeks, but returned within the month. The fights continued once he came back home. Now, it was also said, that he struggled with barbiturate addiction and was prescribing himself pills. You know, having an addiction is rough. Having an addiction when you were able to prescribe yourself opiates? Yeah, it just makes it super easy to get whatever drugs you want.

Lucille confided in Deborah about her marriage problems. She told her things like, Daddy wants to die. That's what the fighting's about. So Deborah was told that her father, Cork, wanted to end his life, but also wanted to make his death look like a car accident. So the family would get an insurance payout. Okay, these are very strange talks to have with a young daughter. Very bizarre. The LA Times reported that Lucille started divorce proceedings on July 8, 1964. But they reconciled in August, and she dropped the action.

On October 8th, 1964, Quirk Miller was killed in a car farm. So we already said that, you know, Lucille is going to be looked at. That's a given. Would she be looked at, you know, maybe even a little bit harder, given the problems in the marriage, given the fact that she started divorce proceedings, you know, basically just a few months before Cork died and then all of a sudden dropped them. Yeah, I think they have to look at her, even more so. At 1.45 a.m., Lucille ran to the home of Mrs. Maurice Swenson in Altiloma.

According to Peeble v. Miller, she told Mrs. Swenson, help me, help me. My car is on fire. Cork is all burned. Mrs. Swenson invited Lucille in, called the sheriff's office. she then asked Lucille if she should call anyone else. Lucille told her to call Harold Lance, an attorney and a close family friend. Harold Lance answered the call and drove to Mrs. Swenson's home. When he arrived, Lucille told him, Quirk was all burned up. So the three people in the house talked while they waited for the sheriff.

Lucille said that she thought she had a bump on her head, but Mrs. Swenson didn't see anything. She did notice the smell of burned hair on the back of her head. Mrs. Swenson saw that Lucille was holding a burned scarf and her clothes were rumpled, but they weren't dirty and they weren't in disarray. Just a little rumpled. Meanwhile, Charles Hogan Camp, the chief of the Altiloma Fire Protection District, responded to the call and was trying to find the burning car. He arrived at Mrs. Swenson's home as Harold Lance and Lucian.

we're leaving the driveway. Lance suggested that the chief follow him. Lucille seemed uncertain about the exact location of the burned car, but they were eventually able to find it. So there's a couple of things here that kind of jump out. You know, number one is the state of Lucille Miller, which I'm sure we'll talk about more as we go on in the episode. Based on what Mrs. Swenson said, you know,

are people going to view her as it seeming as though she was inside this car when it caught fire? And then she's uncertain about where the car is. Now, could that be because it was a traumatic experience and she's jumbled up? Yes, I think it could be. Or because she'd be trying to buy a little bit more time to allow the fire to continue to rage. Possibly. The Miller's Volkswagen was burning at the rear near its motor and rear tire. The driver's side door was open.

The trunk and engine lids were both closed. Cork's burning body was in the passenger seat. Chief Hogan Camp was unable to extinguish the fire immediately. He had to call for assistance. But Cork Miller was pronounced dead at the scene. Once the flames had died down, the chief discovered an uncapped gas can in the back behind the driver's seat. It was discovered that Lucille purchased the can.

and several days before the fire. Now, I, you know, run down to the gas station with a five gallon gas tank. Fill it up so that I can mow my lawn. A lot of times I'll put it in the back behind my seat, roll down a window so the fumes don't get to me. But I would never leave one uncapped because they tend to jostle around when, you know, you're driving a vehicle. Yeah, I'm like you. I do the same thing. The only difference is I like my windows up.

Well, you enjoy the smell and the effect of inhaling gasoline. Yeah. I've always thought that was strange about you, but it is what it is. Harold Lance drove Lucille home, but they returned to the scene around 3 a.m. The police noted that the fire occurred on a little used dark road. Lucille would testify that she occasionally used this road to get home. The start. The start. The fire occurred on a little used dark road to get home. The sergeant observed that part of the car was on the dirt shoulder of the road and part of it was on the pavement. He saw a tire mark from an inflated tire, not a flat tire. The dirt shoulder was next to a four feet tall retaining wall. The passenger door was locked from the inside. The empty gas can inside the car showed no indication of distortion or bulging. All of the tires were deflated except for the left front tire and they were all burned to different degrees. The right rear wheel was in a hole in the ground. There was also a large rock in the middle of the back seat. The headlight switch was in the parking light position. The handbrake was off and the gear shift was in low gear. So there's

a lot of facts there. Now we're getting ready to talk about Lucille's story from that night and we'll have to see how these facts play into her story. And Lucille gave basically the same story to Harold Lance and a police sergeant. She said that she and court were going to a dry cleaners in Pomona. Around 7.30 p.m. Quark was driving. On the way there, they hit and killed a large German shepherd and damaged the left front light of the car. Quirk was upset because this was the third car he owned. that had been damaged in four months. That is not a great track record. Not at all.

It's almost kind of unbelievable. To damage three cars in a four month period of time. After the accident, he drove to a hobby shop where Lucille purchased glue for her son's model toys. They also stopped at the dry cleaner. On the way back, Quark complained of a headache and asked Lucille to drive. Once they got home, Cork sat on the camera. couch and watched a movie. Lucille joined him. When the movie was over, he asked her to make some hot

chocolate. But Lucille didn't have enough milk for the hot chocolate and the children's breakfast. So he suggested they go to the store. Quirk took a pillow and blanket to the car. He got into the passenger seat, wrapped the blanket around himself, and put the pillow against the window to rest his head. Seems a little strange just to go to the store. For some hot chocolate? Yeah. It does. I mean, I get it.

People get cravings. But when you factor in that he's not feeling well, and obviously, he must have been tired to take a blanket and pillow with him in the car. But if you feel that bad, why do you need to go to the store? Oh, yeah. I see what you're saying. If you really wanted the hot chocolate, could you ask your partner to go to the store? Or wouldn't your partner just be like, hey. Stay here. I'll get it. I'll go get it for you. So Lucille drove the car. The closest store to their house was closed. So they decided to go to another store. A witness saw them around 1230 a.m. She saw Lucille in the driver's seat with a large bundle covered by a blanket, which the witness said could have been a person. And here again, it's also, you know, very late at night early into the next morning. Do you need hot chocolate?

that bad. Lucille purchased two half gallons of milk and put them on the floor of the rear passenger side. She claimed she didn't notice the gas can in the car. Okay. So the BS meter is going off. Yeah, same here. Because I just talked about the fact that I have to roll my windows down with a capped gas can. If there was an uncapped gas can in the back of your car, there is no, there is no, no way that you're not noticing it, but there surely is no way that you're not smelling it. Yeah, there has to be something wrong with what she's saying there. According to People v. Miller, the route Lucille took home was circuitous and long and a rather peculiar one for a woman with a sick husband to take home at such a late hour.

Yeah, you think you're going to take the quickest, shortest way to get there, get what you need, get back home so your husband can lay down, get the rest he needs. Yeah, he needs his hot chocolate and plus it's probably 1230, 1 o'clock at night. Lucille claimed she had to drive with her parking lights because one light was damaged by the earlier accident. She was also wearing dark tinted glasses, which is always a good idea when you're driving late at night. Because it's definitely helping the situation.

Lucille was driving around 30 to 40 miles per hour when she felt the steering wheel jerk as if she'd had a tire blowout. She pulled the wheel in the opposite direction and lost control of the car. The car landed on the shoulder with no brake. Lucille said she remembered the wheel spinning and a large flame behind her, she panicked. The next thing she remembered was standing outside of the car, which was on fire. She could not pull cork out. She ran around and tried to open the passenger side door, but she locked it earlier while her husband was resting against it. She found a rock and planned to throw it through the window, but she couldn't dig it out of the sand.

She found another nine pound rock and threw it through the front window. And this was the rock that was found on the back seat. So a lot going on. We have this strange trip to the grocery store that apparently Quirk needed to be involved in, even though he wasn't feeling well. He's got a blanket. He's wrapped up in a blanket. And it was said that the last part of this kind of strange drive home, right?

This strange route was on an unlit street. So make of that what you will. She loses control of the car. And anyone who's had a tire blow out. knows what that feels like. It can be a scary thing. For sure. Now, she's not going 70 miles an hour down the highway.

She's going 30 or 40, but still. And then according to her, she's trying to get cork out, but she's having trouble. She finds a rock, a nine pound rock, bus out the window. But she said the heat from the fire was so intense that she couldn't get the door open. So she went down the bank to look for a stick. to push cork out of the car, but she couldn't find one big enough. She grabbed one that was too small and returned to the car. She couldn't recall what she did with it.

Couldn't find a big enough stick to push him out of the car, huh? Okay. Yeah, I get that. I don't know. You're looking for a stick. You can't find one. Here's the trouble that I have already, though. And I think a lot of people listening are going to have the same thought, which is,

if your loved one, your husband, your wife, your spouse is in a burning car, what links would you go to to try to get them out? Yeah, I'd be reaching in. I know it's going to hurt, but I'm going to get burns on my arms and to get that person out. Yeah, I don't want them to die in that fire. And I think, you know, that's going to be probably something that she's going to have to answer to because I, I get it. She had to find the rock, but she did. She busted the window, which meant she could have unlocked the door, but it's too hot. And I understand that. I'm sure it was very hot. But is that your concern that I'm going to burn my hand or that I can't withstand this heat? And I just don't know to a lot of people that it would be. It would be, I'll do whatever I have to do to get my loved one

out of this burning vehicle. And how much time does it take to go down the bank and search for a stick that you ultimately don't even find? Yeah, by the time you come back, how much bigger is this fire? It's just raging more, right? Lucille ran towards a car going around the corner. The car kept driving and she remembered that a woman named Mrs. Bridges. lived at the corner. She couldn't find the house, so she ran in the other direction. She passed a burning car

and saw that her husband had turned black. She claimed she noticed the gas can at that point. This was when she started running to Mrs. Swenson's house. So she can't notice the gas can when she's putting the milk into the backseat. Right. But notices it as she's running past the burning car. And I call BS on that Because if it's sitting on the floor

How are you seeing it as you run past? It's not like it's up by the window No I mean so either it's because you know it's there And that's your way of trying to weave it into the story Or you got over by the super hot car That you said it was so hot That you decided to go over by the window

And peek in to see what was in the back Just doesn't add up It doesn't. And you know it's not going to add up the two detectives when they hear this story. Lucille had to tell her children what happened to their father. She told a similar story, according to her daughter, Debra. At 1.30 p.m. on October 8th, Lucille was arrested on suspicion of murder.

So it didn't take long. I mean, this is later the same day. She is arrested on suspicion of murder. Detectives wanted to know why the car burst into flames. if the gas tank had not ruptured. They also wanted to know more about the empty gas can on the backseat. The police alleged that Lucille contacted Harold Lance before the fire department and that he called the fire department police and highway patrol.

This would later be disputed. But if it was true, what would you make of that? Well, it's going to cause a delay. Yeah, absolutely. It's going to mean that the fire department gets out there a little bit later. medical personnel, the police. And this comes up in many cases, right? When you analyze the first call made by someone involved in the case,

if it's not to 911, right, or to the police, it gets scrutinized. Yeah. I mean, for her, she wants more time to go by. Well, if you're assuming that she's a killer, then that would be correct. The more time that goes by, the greater the chance that the fire is stronger. Evidence is burned. You can go down a laundry list of different things that would happen. Harold Lance met Lucille at the jail that evening.

Lucille talked to an officer for several hours. She claimed the fire was accidental. Lucille's attorney set up a 24-hour watch over Lucille to prevent further questioning. and I'm thinking that was probably pretty smart. The defense attorney did not want her talking to the police. What's smart of that attorney to put that in play? Because, you know, people like to talk. And the police are very good at trying to get people to talk to them.

I do want to go back to this question that detectives had, which was how could this car burst into flames if the gas tank hadn't ruptured? And this was 1964. I mean, cars were made a little differently than they are today. What was it, the 70s where they had all those cars that were, you know, going up into flames if they got hit from the rear. Yeah. You know, you had the unsafe at any speed and all that stuff. But I think it's a legitimate question.

This is let it gas too. Oh, yeah, I didn't think about that. I don't know what the difference would be in a fire with leaded gas. At 11 p.m. on October 9th, undercover officer Peggy Fisk was booked into the jail on a fake narcotics charge and placed in Lucille's cell. Two other inmates in the same cell were removed. Fiske did not advise Lucille. She was an undercover agent who was put there to report anything she said. She was alone with Lucille until October 15th.

gave oral reports about their conversation. A written report was prepared on October 12. And a partial written report was prepared on October 14. So pretty sneaky. And they still do that today. Oh, I'm sure they do in some scenarios. I found it, you know, kind of interesting that a lot of the research specifically said that, you know,

this woman didn't advise Lucille. She was an undercover agent. well, that would kind of defeat the purpose. You're not going to get any information if as soon as you walk into the cell, you say, hey, by the way, I'm an undercover agent. I just want to let you know. No, this is really real. I'm just here to see if I can get some information out of you.

I think people would tend to clam up pretty quickly. Chief Deputy Coroner A.J. McCann announced Cork was burned alive. He died within seconds of the fire breaking out, according to people, versus Miller. The autopsy found a large amount of barbiturates in his system. The drugs were taken two to four hours before he died. These drugs were easily accessible to both Lucille and Cork through his dental practice. I mean, the only thing you can hope for is that maybe it didn't make him feel the pain as much as he might have felt. It might have, it might have lessened it some, but being burned alive can't be good no matter what you're on.

That's true. On October 13th, 1964, Lucille Miller was formally charged with murder. Her defense attorney complained that the coroner implied Cork was drugged or under the influence of alcohol when he died. He noted that Cork had a painful ulcer and was known to take barbiturates. And this would be an important point. Did he take these drugs himself? Or were they given to him by Lucille in order to make him compliant, you know, easier to get into the car, all of that?

And of course, you can't ask him. No, absolutely not. Mrs. Swenson then confirmed that when Lucille came to her door, she called the police first and then asked her if there was anyone else she could call. She then called Harold Lanz. So this testimony kind of contradicted. claims from the sheriff's office because we talked about it earlier. According to them, she called Harold Lance first. On October 20th, Lucille was indicted for murder.

A grand jury heard that Cork was under the influence of barbiturates when he died. The court learned that Lucille was having an affair and the Millers were having both financial and marital problems. There's a lot going on there. Yes, there's a lot going on. and these are often motivators, right, as we've seen time and time again, for murder, affairs, marital problems, financial problems. Priscilla Slagel, a medical student who lived with the Millers, testified that Lucille was having

an affair and court took excessive drugs. During the grand jury hearing, Arthwell Hayden was quoted to saying he wanted to end their relationship. However, the DA had evidence that. that Lucille spoke about marrying Hayden as late as September of October 1964. A little conflicting. Criminologist J. Robert Davidson testified that Dr. Miller had enough barbiturates in his system to put a normal man in a coma or at the very least a deep sleep.

Now, what does that mean? Does it mean he couldn't have taken that amount by himself? No, I don't think it does. but does it suggest that he most likely would have known what that amount would have done to him and probably wouldn't have taken that amount? It's definitely putting the suggestion out there. I think it is. W.A. Snare, an automobile arson expert, testified that the fire was set deliberately by gasoline or another volatile fluid.

And to me, that would have been, you know, a real, damning piece of testimony. I think so, knowing that the gas cans in the backseat so we can place the gas can in the car. He's saying, yep, it was gas. So it's kind of hard to debate that. Well, saying it was set deliberately versus, you know, the car all of a sudden just catching on fire. Because we know cars do catch on fire. I see cars on the fire on the side of the road from time to time.

I don't know that they catch on fire today, maybe as much as they used to. But heck, I don't know. I had a good friend that her car started on fire. It was like 20 some years ago, but just started smoking, pulled over. And before you know it, it was total flames. Yeah. Well, my daughter also called me the other day and said that her temperature gauge was in the red. And I said, that's not good.

I said when you get home, make sure you, you know, let it cool down, but check your cooling. She called me back and she said, well, there's none in there. And I said, well, that's your problem. You need coolant or the car is going to overheat and maybe catch on fire. Yeah. Like we have identified the root cause. Now go put some cool it out. And ever since she put some in, she's been fun.

On October 27, 1964, Lucille was accused of using the movie, it's a mad, mad, mad, mad, mad world as the blueprint for the murder. So this movie premiered in 1963, and the plot revolves around a group of people pursuing a suitcase full of cash. Assistant D.A. Don Turner claimed that Lucille and her friends saw the movie on October 3rd, 1964. She planned to make Corks death look like a suicide. But the car didn't go over the embankment. So Lucille poured gasoline and set the car on fire. Well, I remember when they were investigating the scene, they said it looked like instead of being a flat tire, it was a full tire that skid over on the road. And I think somebody was hoping that it would look like a tire blue, but it didn't.

Yeah, I don't think they ever saw that to be the case. But what's the assumption here, you know, that she was going to, you know, drive this car. jump out, let the car go down the embankment while cork was inside. The gasoline would help either cause the explosion or would further the explosion. That's what I'm thinking. She's not going to go down the embankment with it. No. I wouldn't think.

And then she can hope that they would think the reason he had so many pills in his system was because he didn't want to live any longer. So he took all those pills, then he drove off the side of the road to end his life. Lucille's murder trial started on December 2nd, 1964. During jury selection, the defense revealed that Lucille wanted to leave her husband and marry her lover, Arthwell, Hayton, an attorney from San Bernardina. On December 4th, Sheriff Frank Blan announced that the death of Elaine Hayden, The 36-year-old wife of Arthwell may have been a murder.

They provided information to the DA for possible charges against Lucille. So Elaine died on April 25, 1964. Her daughter found her dead in her bed. Elaine's daughter said she last saw her mother the night before when Lucille Miller was visiting. Lucille was the last person to see Elaine Hayton a lot. As reported by the LA Times, Elaine's autopsy showed that she died of asphyxia due to antineurotic laryngeal edema due to an allergic reaction. Ingestion of barbiturates was listed as a possible contributing cause. So my thought is it's never good. When you're on trial for the death of your

husband. It comes out that you were having an affair and you're the last person to see your lover's wife alive before she dies. And they find arbitiates in her system. Just like they did in court. Yeah. And it was said that it was an unusually large amount and of the same type of barbiturate found in Quirk Miller's system. You can say it's a coincidence. I can say it. Can you say it? That is the question.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I cannot. But it's just too many things lining up. Yeah, I get where you're coming from. Does it prove? That's the question I always have. Is it going to prove to a jury beyond a reasonable doubt? All of these things.

That's the question. I certainly think it removes. a lot of doubt. For for a lot of people, I would think so. Yeah. But I also think there's some people, you know, who would serve on a jury who really want that kind of direct evidence, right? This proves that you did X. And I don't know how many cases are like that. I know for a fact, not every case has that type of kind of smoking gun evidence, right? Video surveillance. of the person actually murdering someone. That leaves no doubt whatsoever, but that's pretty few and far between.

Unless they have a twin. Well, that's true. Then you have a little problem. You've been watching too many B grade movies on Netflix. Lucille said Elaine called her at 7.30 p.m. on April 24th to ask her to take the kids for a few days so she could get away and get some rest. She seemed upset.

Arthwell Hayton was traveling to Catalina Island and called home at 9 p.m. Lucille answered and said his wife wasn't feeling well and was in the shower. So my first thought was, okay, kind of brazen to have this relationship. Lucille with Elaine when you're sleeping with her husband. Probably happening a lot out there. More than we think. I agree with you on that. I mean, obviously they must have been pretty good friends.

The kids were friends. They must have developed a friendship to the point where she would ask her to watch over her kids for a few days. I mean, that's a pretty good friend. Arthwell Hayton called an emergency press conference on December 6th to deny that he ever had any romantic interest in Lucille Miller. He said he would fully cooperate with the new investigation into his wife's death. Hayton said that when he left Elaine, she was healthy and happy. She had not been sick at all, and they had plans for a vacation in August. He claimed the family physician told him she died of natural causes.

He again denied having a relationship with Lucille and said he made efforts to prevent her from contacting him or his children after his wife died. He claimed he had not seen the Millers for more than four months. I'm not sure he would want to admit. No, he's not going to want to admit to the affair. And he is going to have to try to distance himself as much as possible from Lucille. So saying that he put something or made efforts to prevent her from contacting him or his children, he's going to have to say all that stuff. Sure, because it's not good socially, not good professionally.

Not good legally. Yeah. On December 7th, the judge declared a mistrial. Because of prejudicial out-of-court statements, Lucille's retrial was scheduled for January. That makes you wonder, and we don't know. What the actual statements were. Yeah.

Her defense motioned for a mistrial, citing newspaper articles as references, and basically it just said, the articles discussed the investigation into the death of Elaine Hayton. So I'm assuming it just centered around that. The fact that there was a thought Lucille possibly killed Elaine to be with her husband. Well, if that's the case, then by extension, she was capable of killing her own husband as well.

So the defense wouldn't have wanted the jury to know anything. Not at all. About Elaine Hayden. The judge told the court, per the elephant, LA Times, I'm not prepared to say that newspaper publicity would influence a jury. I am compelled to the conclusion, however, that it might do so. The interests of justice require that we avoid the possibility of such result. And it sounds to me like the judge was airing on the side of caution.

Let's not take any chances of going through this whole trial, getting a verdict, and it just being overturned because of these statements put out by the press. On December 17th, Lucille won permission to undergo a pregnancy test because she had been experiencing symptoms. On the 19th, her attorney confirmed she was pregnant. All right. What do you make of that? Well, it depends on whose baby it is. Yeah. I mean, if it is her husbands, then, okay, you're not going to make that much out of it maybe. But if it turns out to be Arthwell Hayton's, that kind of blows, you know,

his statements out of the water. Yeah. I'm sure if he did have relations with her, he was sweating at this time. Well, I'm sure he was sweating anyway, but even more so probably after he, uh, he found this out. Lucille's trial was not delayed. Jury selection started on January 11th. 1965 is scheduled, opening statements were delivered on January 19th. Assistant DA Don Turner told the jury he would introduce evidence showing that Lucille proposed marriage to Arthur Hayton on April 20th, four days before his wife died. Prosecutors argued that Lucille drugged her husband and set the car on fire to receive his $140,000 life insurance policy with a double indemnity in case of accidental death.

She did this so that she could marry Arthwell Hayden. That's a lot of money back in the day. That is a ton of money in the 60s. That's a lot of money today. But what I'm getting is that, you know, this argument by prosecutors is that this almost solves two of her problem. Right? She gets rid of cork and gets a bunch of money

in life insurance proceeds. and she then gets to be with the man she wants to be with. Now, if she really did propose to him four days before his wife died, makes that look a little suspicious. More suspicious. Yeah, absolutely. The prosecution alleged that Lucille felt neglected by court and thought he wasn't trying hard enough to make a lot of money.

They noted that Lucille subjected him to a crushing load of debt, per the San Bernardino County son. Well, when you go buy a house without asking them. One that you can barely afford. And I'm assuming there were furnishings. Oh, and all kinds of other things that had to be bought. Had to be. But that is a tough position to be in.

You're not making enough money to satisfy my spending habit. Cork earned about $25,000 before taxes, according to, people versus Miller. And that doesn't sound too bad in 1964. That was good money in 64. I don't know what the average salary was, but I can't imagine it was above that. He and Lucille, though, were in $64,000 of debt. $30,000 was attributed to the new construction on their home. It was said that Cork didn't like it, but he went along with it to keep the peace. The prosecution, put forth their theory. And it was that Lucille planned for the car to go over the retaining wall on the side of the road, land on the gas tank, and catch on fire. She attempted to drive over the edge,

but was unable to. The rear wheels spun and the car settled on a rock. Lucille stopped the car on the pavement, poured the gas, put the car in low gear, and started towards the edge. But was stopped by the shoulder of the road. after repeated attempts to get the car over the edge, she lit the car on fire. She was determined he was going to die. It does seem that way, but it also seems like she had a plan. It just didn't work out the way she thought it would. It was said that the only parts of Lucille that were burned were the hair on the back of her head and her right form. And that this was consistent with her getting burned as she reached towards the gas can with a burning stick.

and turned her face away as she lit the fire. The car was too close to the retaining wall for her to run around the car to Cork's side. As she testified, she would have fallen over the wall. The prosecution argued that she wanted Cork's body to be consumed by the fire, to avoid the discovery of the drugs. When Lucille was arrested, she asked officers if there was enough left of him for an autopsy. okay it's a little strange it's a strange question right yeah i mean just to say with some of his body left is one thing but to say is there enough for an autopsy it's very specific yeah defense attorney

edward foley told the jury that he would introduce proof the fire was an accident resulting from mechanical failure and a gas tank leakage fully argued that cork miller wanted to end his life in a way that would allow his family to collect insurance. Before his death, he complained of headaches and was addicted to barbiturates. The defense acknowledged that Lucille purchased the gas can, but it was at Quirk's request. The gas can was in the car because both of them had run out of gas and ended up stranded more than once. And I'm sure there are people who, you know, keep a gas can with them for fear of of running out of gas.

I don't know how many people would keep it in the back seat uncapped. That seems like a very strange thing. The numbers would be pretty low. Foley said an arson expert would testify there was no trace of gas within the car and no gas traces in the surrounding soil. The most intense part of the fire was under the car. The defense argued their expert would say the fire started somewhere else. and moved. Dr. Irving Root, a pathologist, testified that he found respiratory tract burns in

cork's body and carbon monoxide in the blood, which indicated he was alive before the fire started. And I think that's important testimony. Obviously, if he's dead before the fire starts, then it's going to be pretty tough to argue he wasn't murdered. But just because he's alive before the fire was started doesn't mean that it wasn't murder. The prosecution's theory is that he was drugged to the point where he was out of it. William Snare, an agent of the National Automobile Thief Bureau, testified that the fire originated inside the passenger section of the vehicle. There were no signs that the fire was caused by mechanical failure or a gas tank. leakage. So again, this is what we see in in a ton of trials, right? Experts kind of contradicting

each other. It's going to be up to the jury. You know, who do they believe? Who has the better experts, the more believable experts? Who seems more credible? Yes. The prosecution disclosed that the sheriff's department secretly conducted an arson test on a Volkswagen to determine the fire pattern, the Volkswagen could not have burned as it did without any accelerant. Gas was poured inside the car and the open can was left on the back floor. The car was lit on fire with a stick used as a torch. Detective Sergeant William Patterson testified that he retrieved a four-foot scorched branch from the death scene two days after the fire.

criminalist Anthony Longgetty testified that a similar length of wood was used in the arson test as a stick torch to ignite the gas. Now you're showing some similarities, right, between what they believe happened and the test that they conducted. This is going to help formulate what really happened in the jury's mind. William Snare testified that the results of the test were near identical to the remains. of the Miller's Volkswagen. Under cross-examination, Snair admitted, though, that the extensive damage to the car

made it impossible to determine the exact point of origin of the fire. The court learned that the gas can found in the car was removed from the crime lab and thrown out by a janitor. Every case. I know. I just,

it's just so unbelievable. It is. I get it, man. The janitor's trying to do their job, trying to clean stuff up. But I'm thinking some of this evidence needs to be better secured in a location where things are not going to be thrown away. Maybe tagged a little better. I don't know. Like, hey, don't throw away evidence.

Just something. Earlier, the defense noted that there was a nail in the tire of the Volkswagen. The prosecutor asked criminalist Robert David. If there was evidence of a tire blowout, but Davidson said there was not. But you can drive that nail in to get the illusion of a blowout by making the tire flat. If you thought it was going to go over the hill and catch on fire, maybe someone would be like, oh, they had a blowout, they doubled over. That's what happened.

Yeah, or you could have a nail in your tire and it not go flat, right? It could be a very, very slow leak. Yeah. There's a number of scenarios where you can have a nail in your tire. Arthwell Hayton began his testimony on February 8th. He testified that he didn't recall ever telling Lucille he loved her, but admitted he may have occasionally whispered sweet nothings in her ear. Okay.

He went from, I don't know her. Nothing's going on to, yeah, I might, uh, whispers. for some sweet nothing's in their ear. It's a term you don't hear very much today, but it is a little bit of a difference from, you know, there was nothing romantic whatsoever between us. And I don't like how someone says,

I don't recall Santa I ever loved her. It's like either you just say, I never told her I loved her. But when you say, I don't recall if I ever said I loved her. I always think that's a tactic. Yeah. Because you don't want to,

perjure yourself. So you don't want to say you didn't. Because then they're going to come back and say, well, here's a card you gave to her and it actually says, I love you in your handwriting. But when you say, I don't recall, it's a layer of protection. It is a layer.

But he did admit that he had an affair with Lucille and testified that Lucille told him she loved him and wanted to marry him. So I think right away, he's lost credibility because he's, he lied earlier. There's no doubt about that. According to People versus Miller, Lucille and Arthwell stayed together in motels on three occasions. Lucille asked him to divorce his wife and advised his wife to divorce him. But Hayden was content with continuing their affair. He did

eventually grow tired of Lucille and tried to end the relationship, especially when she began publicizing the affair and threatened to expose him if he wouldn't marry her. That was probably kind of scary for the guy. Well, it's also not the way that you go about getting someone to want to be with you. Right. If you don't divorce your wife, if you don't continue to have this affair with me, I'll expose you, I'll ruin you. Okay, let's get married.

It doesn't seem to work that way. No, why would you want that? But I also think it's hitting him in the, you know what now, because remember he, he publicly went out there and said, No romantic involvement whatsoever. Now they're saying, look, they spent at least three times in a hotel together. Well, and that's why I said he had to have lost credibility with the jury. Lucille got on the stand and denied killing her husband. She explained that she obtained barbiturate pills for her husband's illness not to drug him so that

she could set him on fire. She did admit that she loved Hayton up to the time of her husband's death, but she realized she no longer loved him, quote, the minute quirk was gone. And I actually found that to be a very odd statement. Yeah, I think so too. It took him to die in that horrific way. Now you're like, in the minute he was dead, she realized she didn't love this other guy. Undercover officer Peggy Fisk testified that Lucille told her in their shared jail cell that

she did not love her husband, but she respected him, that she had always loved Mr. Hayton and still loves him, that she wanted to receive over $100,000 in insurance because of the accidental death. And as soon as this mess was over, that she planned to take her children away to Europe with the insurance money. Well, your husband's dead now and you have some money. What are you going to do? It's either what for her, go to Disney or, uh, go to Europe.

But really none of this was all that damning, I didn't think. The only thing that was really contradictory was that she still loved Mr. Hayden. She didn't come out and tell this undercover officer that she murdered her husband. She didn't say anything like that. In closing, the defense asked the jury to acquit. Lucille, because the prosecution had not proved, Dr. Miller was murdered, or that Lucille was responsible.

She may have been in love with Hayden, but the affair ended several months before Cork died, and she gave up the idea of marrying him. They emphasized that Lucille would not be motivated to kill her husband, because he earned around $30,000 a year with his dental. practice. So basically saying he's making really good money, why would you want to jeopardize losing that type of income? And I think that's an argument that is made in many cases. Now, what's the flip side of that is that you're going to get a one-time big, bigger payout. Right. You're going to lose

the annual income, but you're going to be free to be with the person with whom you really want to be with. which happens to be an attorney. So I'm assuming he was probably making good money too. Yeah, probably. The prosecution argued that the defense was ignoring the facts to wage an attack on Arthwell Hayton. On March 5th, 1965, Lucille Miller was convicted of first-degree murder after four days of deliberation.

And that's a pretty good amount of time. You know, this wasn't, you know, let's get in the room, 30 minutes, one vote. she's guilty, prosecutors announced that they would not ask for the death penalty. On March 23rd, Lucille was sentenced to life in prison. Her defense filed an amended complaint with the U.S. District Court, alleging the sheriff's office went beyond the scope of their official duties and violated her civil rights.

An earlier complaint that was similar had already been dismissed. In late May, defense attorney Edward Foley, revealed that Lucille's baby would be born in a hospital and not in a prison. Lucille's fourth child, Kimmy Kai Miller, was born on June 6, 1965. Attorney Harold Lance successfully filed a petition for guardianship. He was already caring for the other children at this time. Lucille's civil rights suit against San Bernardino County was dismissed in December, 1965. In February 1966,

Lucille's attorney filed a 121-page brief seeking a new trial. He claimed that the jury was prejudiced by investigators, the DA's office, the judge, and adverse publicity. He also alleged that evidence was obtained without a warrant, and the sheriff's office used trickery. On September 22nd, 1966, the 4th District Court of Appeal, upheld Lucille's verdict. According to the San Bernardino County son,

the appeal found that the attempt to get incriminating statements from Lucille was completely indefensible. But Officer Fiske's testimony was basically harmless. So they didn't support the use of this undercover agent. But like I said, you know, you look at the testimony that she gave and there was really nothing in there that I think would have aided in Lucille's conviction. I think it was just some fluff. It really was.

There wasn't, you know, there was no bombshell, nothing like that. On December 14th, 1966, the California Supreme Court denied a hearing for Lucille's appeal. In 1967, the U.S. Supreme Court announced that it would conduct a limited review of Lucille's trial. and they limited the review to Lucille's claim that the undercover officer violated her rights to counsel and against self-incrimination. The Supreme Court upheld the conviction on June 17th in 1968.

The court found that Lucille's trial started before the effective date of Miranda versus state of Arizona. So the decision is not applicable to her case. Oh, that's kind of interesting. It is because it almost makes it sound as though if it had occurred after Miranda would have come into play. In the late 60s, papers reported on the possibility that Lucille could get a retrial. In June 1969, the U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals asked the lower court to take a new look at the case. The court found that the use of an undercover officer violated Lucy's.

Seals' rights against self-incrimination. So she was granted a new hearing on March 19th, 1970. On October 14th, 1970, a federal appeals court reversed the lower court's refusal to consider Lucille's release from prison. A U.S. District Court judge heard case arguments in October 1971 and announced that he would file his opinion in January 1972. And I think what this really does, it underscores just how many legal maneuvers keep happening, right, after a person is convicted. Well, I mean, the defense attorney doesn't want to give up. Well, and this is even less than it would be if it was a capital case. Lucille's appeal was still pending in February, in 1972, when it was announced, she would appear before the parole board in May. At this time,

seven years was the minimum prison time requirement for murder in California. And that's pretty interesting because you and I just did a case in Canada. Was that last week? I think so. Yeah. Where it was life in prison, parole, I think in six. And we said that was kind of unusual, which today I believe it is. As it should be.

But apparently in the late 60s and early 70s in California, it was very similar. to that. To me, that's just like a slap on the hand. Compared to life. Yeah, it is. Lucille looked forward to her freedom. She had been working as a stenographer in prison and said she would continue to do so after she was released. The superintendent of the prison reported that Lucille already had three job offers in the L.A. area. She hasn't even been paroled and she has three job offers. Lucy's, was paroled and she officially dropped her appeal in October 1972. No need to keep appealing.

You're out on parole. But she was back in the news the following year. In July 1973, Lucille was charged with attempting to steal blouse from a department store. On August 17th, she pleaded guilty to the theft. The parole board agreed not to send her back to prison, as long as she kept her job and sought psychiatric

care. Conditional. Conditional, but this is what I never understand. You finally get what you wanted for years, your freedom, and you're going to risk it over trying to steal a blouse. Why? People just do things that make no sense to me, and this is totally outside of murder and all of that. You wonder what the real reason was. That she stole the blouse? Yeah. I mean, just because she wanted to, I guess. Do you really need to have them? She had a job. Yeah. So I don't know that it was money.

Was it the thrill? Some people shoplift just for the thrill of it? They don't, you know, they have the money to pay for things. I don't know. Well, that's true. I mean, you can go back and think about writer. I remember her first name. Oh, Wynonna?

Yeah. Winona Ryder. She did the same thing, didn't she? No, and she was at the top of her game at the time of that. Yeah, she had plenty of money. Yeah. It wasn't a money thing. In a 2006 article for the LA Times, Deborah Miller wrote that the children were hopelessly

entangled with Lucille until she died from breast cancer on November 4, 1986. Her sister, Kimmy, died of lung cancer at the age of 25. She had two children. Guy Miller was a practicing dentist. Ron was a writer and high school teacher. Deborah was also a high school English teacher. The three of them were married, but had no children. And I don't know what that meant, hopelessly entangled.

Are they saying they're hopelessly entangled because it's their mom and they have, there's no way out of that. It's their mom. So they're always going to be part of her life. Yeah, I get that. I just thought the term hopelessly entangled was, was an odd phrase to use. Another thing that I found extremely strange was that San Bernardino authorities never fully looked into the death of Elaine Hayton.

So, and it's almost certain that no one will ever know if she was murdered. They would have to reopen it, exhum her body probably. And even then, I don't know if they would be able to tell so much time has passed. And so do you think that part of it is we pretty much know who did that. And we're okay knowing that she's in prison. Yeah, I don't know. I really don't. Because I never could, you know, really find that in the research.

And that's probably not something they're just going to come out and say. Yeah. The other thing that I never found in the research was whether it was determined conclusively who the father of Lucille's last child was. Yeah. Was it her husband's? Was it Arthwell's? or was it someone else? You know, possibly this other attorney, you know, that she called or she had called that

night who ended up with guardianship of the children. I have no idea. I'm just thinking, Arthwell, probably wouldn't want a prosecutor to bring charges against her because it's going to bring everything up that he did with Lucille and it's going to put it in the spot. spotlight to his kids as well. I just don't think you want that. Well, and it could also maybe possibly put him in the crosshairs, right? Did he want that? Did he collude? Yeah. You know, so you saying he probably didn't want that, I would agree with it for a number of different reasons.

I think what we do know is that Lucille Miller was a cruel woman who subjected her husband to a horrific death, also that she could have you know, this large insurance payout and be with a man who, by all accounts, wasn't even really interested in marrying her, being with her. I think he just wanted to play around for a little bit and get bored and wanted to move on to whoever, whatever. I think Lucille Miller was a fling to this guy. Yeah. And I think she saw it much differently.

I think she saw Arthwell as the man with whom she was going to spend the rest of her life. I don't think he viewed it the same way. Now, whether he knew more than what he said about the death of his wife, that I don't know. You know, did Lucille kill her? Like you said, it's a, it's a pretty big coincidence that the same type of barbiturates, this large amount of barbiturates was found in both her husband and in Elaine Hayton's system. And the fact that Lucille was the last one to see both of those people. Yes. Yeah, you can't overlook that fact as well.

But I mean, it is a very strange case. It's also one of those where we don't know everything. We know the big thing, which is she was convicted of killing her husband. Right. But there's some unanswered questions. in this one, a lot more than are usually there in an assault case. And it sounds like nobody really poked into some of those questions all that much. And will they ever, because it's, what, 59 years? Oh, it's going to be much harder. You know, even if they decided to do it today,

not to say that it would be impossible, but it is going to be much tougher. But that's it for our episode on Lucille Miller. We got some voicemails. You want to check those out? Sarah. Hello, this is Emily. I just left a voicemail, but I am re-listening to the podcast. I have finished True Crime All the Time, Unsolved, and Criminology. But I was re-listening to them on episode, I think 86, with Daniel Ruckowitz. In about six and a half minutes in, wait, 16 and a half minutes in, Mike says Daniel Radcliffe.

And I had to re-listen to it, and I started laughing. so hard, especially because I'm a huge Harry Potter fan. But I also wanted to say something. Gibby did not call it out. Like, are you a Harry Potter fan? And did you recognize it or did it just not register? Or I don't know. All right.

Have a good day, you guys. And everybody, stay safe. So I remember that. I did get a lot of heat. You did. For that mistake. But you know who didn't get a lot of heat? Who should have?

Who? You? Because she makes a very valid point. You didn't call me out. Because I'm a nice guy. If you were a nice guy, you wouldn't let me make a mistake. You would call it to my attention. I'm not a nice guy.

And I pulled a Severus Snape, Snape. Snape. You had it right the first time. But you actually are a pretty big Harry Potter fan. Oh, yeah. And so I know you know who Daniel Radcliffe is. Sure.

But you do also take catnaps. sometimes while we're recording the episode. It could have been one of those times. Yeah. Or you're zoned out. You're just not, I don't know, but you're supposed to catch my mistake. Yeah. And you didn't.

I mean, I was in the second movie as an extra. I was the person waving around that one wand. Oh, yeah, that person. Yeah. Hey, Mike, give me, this is Carrie again. I'm just traveling back from the Greens, Indiana area, going back to Northern Kentucky. And I was relistening to everything again and called you guys all back.

And I was listening to the Anthony Kirkland case. And I said, man, I knew that case somewhere. And I looked up his picture. And I said, I remember when that happened, I was growing up as kid, seeing that on the news and just all the crap that date, all the stuff that he did is just mind-blowing. Anyway, I just wanted to say, got bored, figured our guys give you guys a call. And I still love the show.

Still, keep in giving me. So see you all. Love hearing from them. Yeah. Appreciate the voicemail very much. You know, what I will say is when you re-listen to an episode, yeah, the person is still as bad. May sound even worse what they did the second time. You know what I love about him?

Is that, you know, he drives a truck, right? Mm-hmm. And he's Team Ghibie? He's Team Ghibie. And one time he was driving a truck to said, got milk, and he erased the milk and said, got Ghibi. Mm. I might be making that part up. I was going to say, I don't remember that.

I don't know. It sounded good, right? Yeah. I like that. Yeah. I can't imagine that he would risk his occupation. I don't know, but if you can do it, make it happen. To make a funny.

All right. We had nothing in the mailbag this week. So that's it, buddy, for another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.